I was wondering what would be the MUTCD analogue of the Autobahn's famous "end restrictions" sign. It'll probably be just "NO SPEED LIMIT" on a white regulatory sign, but it'd be cool if it were something else.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Zeichen_282_-_Ende_s%C3%A4mtlicher_Streckenverbote%2C_StVO_1970.svg)
No such sign exists in the MUTCD, to my knowledge.
"End Speed Zone" would be the closest, or is that not in the MUTCD? I know I have seen that sign posted, usually leaving a town in a exurban/rural area, back to the "default" speed limit for road type
New York has an equivalent sign in its supplement to the MUTCD, NYR2—11:
(https://i.imgur.com/k1HS7gC.png?1)
The MUTCD provides for a "Maintain Top Safe Speed" sign (EM-4), for nuclear or other emergencies where travelers need to get away from or through a dangerous area ASAP. See https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2009r1r2/part2ithu2n.pdf (starting at page 343 of the complete MUTCD, or page 45 of that .pdf) for that and other disaster-related signs.
When Montana had a "reasonable and prudent" daytime rural speed limit for cars, it had sign assemblies stating truck and night limits (still in use), with no mention of any daytime limit for cars. There were signs at the state line explaining "reasonable and prudent" for cars in the daytime, which I think is not in the current MUTCD.
I don't have a photo of the latter, but here's one of the former:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alaskaroads.com%2Fmontana-RP-SL-sign.jpg&hash=5e6664cfac525579b72c52f9d8760b76076aada4)
I didn't see a parallel to the top sign in the current MUTCD, but the bottom one is there (R2-2P).
Quote from: ilpt4u on September 01, 2019, 08:21:46 PM
"End Speed Zone" would be the closest, or is that not in the MUTCD? I know I have seen that sign posted, usually leaving a town in a exurban/rural area, back to the "default" speed limit for road type
That sign is not in the national MUTCD.
It is a state-specific sign (New York?). I believe it is used where the state specifies a default speed limit–when leaving an urban area posted with a different speed than default, this is used to indicate the state default speed resumes. Not all states operate this way with a default speed.
I want to say I've seen it used in Indiana, but exactly where not sure. I know I have seen it out there, somewhere
Quote from: oscar on September 02, 2019, 12:02:39 AM
The MUTCD provides for a "Maintain Top Safe Speed" sign (EM-4), for nuclear or other emergencies where travelers need to get away from or through a dangerous area ASAP. See https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2009r1r2/part2ithu2n.pdf (starting at page 343 of the complete MUTCD, or page 45 of that .pdf) for that and other disaster-related signs.
When Montana had a "reasonable and prudent" daytime rural speed limit for cars, it had sign assemblies stating truck and night limits (still in use), with no mention of any daytime limit for cars. There were signs at the state line explaining "reasonable and prudent" for cars in the daytime, which I think is not in the current MUTCD.
I don't have a photo of the latter, but here's one of the former:
....
Not my photo, but the website says this is public-domain:
(https://www.nps.gov/features/yell/slidefile/gatewaycommunities/north/Images/15923.jpg)
I remember looking through the Delaware MUTCD (guide) to see how DelDOT trains its engineers to design signage. This topic did come up.
"END XX MPH" Here's the DelDOT Sign Book, look at PDF page 32 (document page 1-6): https://deldot.gov/Publications/manuals/de_mutcd/pdfs/archived/Sign_Book_April_2010.pdf
But then according to the DelDOT MUTCD training, the "END XX MPH" is deprecated, PDF page 30: https://deldot.gov/Publications/manuals/de_mutcd/pdfs/draft/DEMUTCD_Part2_T2_training_021011.pdf
However, do note that Delaware has statutory speed limits (section 4169): https://delcode.delaware.gov/title21/c041/sc08/
You have to know what states have maximum basic speed laws. For example, NY and VT have basic speed limits of 55 and 50, but local governments can post lower limits. Once the lower limit ends the speed limit just ceases to be signed, signifying that the max basic speed is in effect.
Quote from: ipeters61 on September 02, 2019, 09:28:20 AM
However, do note that Delaware has statutory speed limits (section 4169): https://delcode.delaware.gov/title21/c041/sc08/
Interesting that the law notes the maximum speed limit is 55 mph on any divided highway with the exception of DE-1 which may be posted at 65 mph. It does not mention any exceptions for US-301 yet that is now posted at 65 mph too. Isn't that technically violating their own law by posting such speed limit without an amendment indicating US-301 is permitted?
In Virginia at least, the maximum speed limit on any divided highway shall be 55 mph, with 70 mph permitted on limited-access roadways (i.e. freeways and interstate highways). However, it also permits 60 mph on specific divided highways and those routes are listed in the law. The state is real strict about what is and what is not permitted to be above 55 mph. If they want to raise a road to 60 mph that's not permitted legally, they'll go through the process of adding it in the legislation. They did this back in 2018 when they added some new routes that now are getting raised one by one as speed studies are completed.
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 02, 2019, 01:29:16 PM
Quote from: ipeters61 on September 02, 2019, 09:28:20 AM
However, do note that Delaware has statutory speed limits (section 4169): https://delcode.delaware.gov/title21/c041/sc08/
Interesting that the law notes the maximum speed limit is 55 mph on any divided highway with the exception of DE-1 which may be posted at 65 mph. It does not mention any exceptions for US-301 yet that is now posted at 65 mph too. Isn't that technically violating their own law by posting such speed limit without an amendment indicating US-301 is permitted?
In Virginia at least, the maximum speed limit on any divided highway shall be 55 mph, with 70 mph permitted on limited-access roadways (i.e. freeways and interstate highways). However, it also permits 60 mph on specific divided highways and those routes are listed in the law. The state is real strict about what is and what is not permitted to be above 55 mph. If they want to raise a road to 60 mph that's not permitted legally, they'll go through the process of adding it in the legislation. They did this back in 2018 when they added some new routes that now are getting raised one by one as speed studies are completed.
Section (b) covers the speed limit being above or below any statutory limit on any road. 95 and 495 are also at 65, and DE 1 near Bear and 95 is 60 mph.
I think section (d) was written into law just to appease some local voters below the canal many years ago. Its not really needed.
PennDOT generally either posts a single Speed Limit 55 sign and then doesn't post it again further down the road until the next restriction, or uses an END banner over whatever speed limit sign was in use. (I don't know if the latter is still used in new installations.) Pennsylvania's default speed limit for non-freeways is 55 mph.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 02, 2019, 01:44:18 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on September 02, 2019, 01:29:16 PM
Quote from: ipeters61 on September 02, 2019, 09:28:20 AM
However, do note that Delaware has statutory speed limits (section 4169): https://delcode.delaware.gov/title21/c041/sc08/
Interesting that the law notes the maximum speed limit is 55 mph on any divided highway with the exception of DE-1 which may be posted at 65 mph. It does not mention any exceptions for US-301 yet that is now posted at 65 mph too. Isn't that technically violating their own law by posting such speed limit without an amendment indicating US-301 is permitted?
In Virginia at least, the maximum speed limit on any divided highway shall be 55 mph, with 70 mph permitted on limited-access roadways (i.e. freeways and interstate highways). However, it also permits 60 mph on specific divided highways and those routes are listed in the law. The state is real strict about what is and what is not permitted to be above 55 mph. If they want to raise a road to 60 mph that's not permitted legally, they'll go through the process of adding it in the legislation. They did this back in 2018 when they added some new routes that now are getting raised one by one as speed studies are completed.
Section (b) covers the speed limit being above or below any statutory limit on any road. 95 and 495 are also at 65, and DE 1 near Bear and 95 is 60 mph.
I think section (d) was written into law just to appease some local voters below the canal many years ago. Its not really needed.
Also just note that section (a) doesn't really say "limited access." Not sure if there's a specific difference from a statutory perspective in Delaware between that and another divided highway (e.g. US-13, US-40, and US-113 through most of the state). There's a very, very short section of DE-7 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5935155,-75.6614924,3a,75y,177.79h,90.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgC6DCHhrU3pdT57CTg37Wg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) that actually is undivided but has a 55 MPH limit, as it's transitioning between being divided and undivided.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on September 02, 2019, 11:59:21 AM
... NY and VT ... Once the lower limit ends the speed limit just ceases to be signed, signifying that the max basic speed is in effect.
How do you know when the limit ceases to be signed, vs signs being a distance apart?
Quote from: GaryV on September 02, 2019, 05:02:36 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on September 02, 2019, 11:59:21 AM
... NY and VT ... Once the lower limit ends the speed limit just ceases to be signed, signifying that the max basic speed is in effect.
How do you know when the limit ceases to be signed, vs signs being a distance apart?
They post "End xx limit" signs.
The only one of these signs I've seen is by a local university on a road when no one goes 20 (on a four line arterial). There isn't a speed limit sign for the next few blocks except for a school limit.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on September 02, 2019, 07:24:34 PM
Quote from: GaryV on September 02, 2019, 05:02:36 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on September 02, 2019, 11:59:21 AM
... NY and VT ... Once the lower limit ends the speed limit just ceases to be signed, signifying that the max basic speed is in effect.
How do you know when the limit ceases to be signed, vs signs being a distance apart?
They post "End xx limit" signs.
Not consistently in NY.
Honestly, I didn't think that this would be a popular thread.
Anyway, I guess here in the Beaver State the unrestricted sign would be "NO SPEED" , which would make driving in Oregon even more bizarre than it is already. :hmmm:
Virginia used to have a single "END 65 MILE SPEED" sign–the only one anywhere in the Commonwealth, as far as I know–at the eastern end of the Dulles Greenway. As noted above, that would normally mean the default speed limit of 55 would apply after the sign, and that's ultimately why the sign was removed: The sign's location was just west of a toll plaza where the speed limit dropped to 35. I'm pretty sure there's now a 55-mph sign once you exit the toll plaza, although it's been a year or two since I've had reason to use that road and I do not have time to look at Street View right now.
While it's not quite a "no speed limit" sign... I'm surprised no one has mentioned
(https://i.imgur.com/nJ9YgB3.png)
Quote from: Rothman on September 02, 2019, 10:41:32 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on September 02, 2019, 07:24:34 PM
Quote from: GaryV on September 02, 2019, 05:02:36 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on September 02, 2019, 11:59:21 AM
... NY and VT ... Once the lower limit ends the speed limit just ceases to be signed, signifying that the max basic speed is in effect.
How do you know when the limit ceases to be signed, vs signs being a distance apart?
They post "End xx limit" signs.
Not consistently in NY.
"State speed limit 55" serves essentially the same purpose, although technically "end XX limit" would revert to whatever zone your're in (area, village, town, city, state, etc.) rather than just the statewide default. They're becoming less common because people weren't familiar with the speed zone system.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on September 03, 2019, 09:38:17 AM
While it's not quite a "no speed limit" sign... I'm surprised no one has mentioned
(https://i.imgur.com/nJ9YgB3.png)
Except by the person who mentioned it... https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25615.msg2440738#msg2440738
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on September 03, 2019, 09:38:17 AM
While it's not quite a "no speed limit" sign... I'm surprised no one has mentioned
(https://i.imgur.com/nJ9YgB3.png)
D'oh!!
(That's what I get for reading from my phone while on a trip.)
Except by the person who mentioned it... https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=25615.msg2440738#msg2440738
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on September 01, 2019, 11:39:10 PM
New York has an equivalent sign in its supplement to the MUTCD, NYR2—11:
(https://i.imgur.com/k1HS7gC.png?1)
NYS is all over the place with this sign. There's "END XX MPH LIMIT" , there's also the older "END XX MPH SPEED" , the most common is now "STATE SPEED LIMIT 55" , however since the switch to the National MUTCD in 2009, apparently some engineers and/or contractors are ignoring the State Supplement and just going with "SPEED LIMIT 55" . There is no "No Speed Limit" in New York State, the default speed limit is 55 unless otherwise posted.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on September 03, 2019, 09:38:17 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/nJ9YgB3.png)
Is there any photographic evidence of this sign ever being deployed in the field for real-life use? (As opposed to, say, a drill.) One would think it could be used during hurricane evacuation, but I also suspect that way too many people would have a whacked-out definition of "top safe speed."
In the mountains of North Carolina i have seen signs that say "Resume Safe Speed" after sections of 35 or 45. I assume its the default state limit of 55, but why not just say 55 on the sign then?
Quote from: fillup420 on September 10, 2019, 09:01:58 PM
In the mountains of North Carolina i have seen signs that say "Resume Safe Speed" after sections of 35 or 45. I assume its the default state limit of 55, but why not just say 55 on the sign then?
I suspect North Carolina is similar to Massachusetts, where a specific numerical limit cannot legally be posted on a regulatory speed sign unless there is a special regulation establishing a speed zone on a given section of highway. Resume Safe Speed (or End Speed Zone, which is used in Massachusetts), informs the driver that the prima-facie speed limit is now in effect for that section of road.
Personally, I've always objected to laws or rules preventing the posting of prima-facie speed limits on regulatory signs. Seems to me a more effective way to deal with this would be to add a 'PRIMA-FACIE' plate below R2-1 signs where the sign denotes the prima-facie limit instead of one established by special regulation.
Quote from: roadman on September 11, 2019, 09:24:57 AM
Quote from: fillup420 on September 10, 2019, 09:01:58 PM
In the mountains of North Carolina i have seen signs that say "Resume Safe Speed" after sections of 35 or 45. I assume its the default state limit of 55, but why not just say 55 on the sign then?
Can't speak for North Carolina, but in Massachusetts a specific numerical limit cannot be posted on a regulatory speed sign unless there is a regulation establishing a speed zone on a given section of highway. Resume Safe Speed (or End Speed Zone, which is used in Massachusetts), informs the driver that the prima-facie speed limit is now in effect for that section of road.
The MUTCD has phased out the "END SPEED ZONE" signs as of the 2009 edition, requesting that "speed limit 55" signs get placed instead--and they have done so because of this exact case of ambiguity.
Quote from: roadman on September 11, 2019, 09:24:57 AM
Seems to me a more effective way to deal with this would be to add a 'PRIMA-FACIE' plate below R2-1 signs where the sign denotes the prima-facie limit instead of one established by special regulation.
Then you'd have to explain to 99% + of the drivers what "prima-facie" means.
Quote from: GaryV on September 11, 2019, 11:09:03 AM
Quote from: roadman on September 11, 2019, 09:24:57 AM
Seems to me a more effective way to deal with this would be to add a 'PRIMA-FACIE' plate below R2-1 signs where the sign denotes the prima-facie limit instead of one established by special regulation.
Then you'd have to explain to 99% + of the drivers what "prima-facie" means.
The purpose of having a Prima-Facie tab (or perhaps Statutory instead) is so that the posted limit is legally enforceable in states (like Massachusetts) that normally require special regulations to post regulatory speed limit signs on highways.
Exceeding a prima facie speed limit by itself isn't illegal.
Quote from: roadman on September 11, 2019, 04:34:11 PM
Quote from: GaryV on September 11, 2019, 11:09:03 AM
Quote from: roadman on September 11, 2019, 09:24:57 AM
Seems to me a more effective way to deal with this would be to add a 'PRIMA-FACIE' plate below R2-1 signs where the sign denotes the prima-facie limit instead of one established by special regulation.
Then you'd have to explain to 99% + of the drivers what "prima-facie" means.
The purpose of having a Prima-Facie tab (or perhaps Statutory instead) is so that the posted limit is legally enforceable in states (like Massachusetts) that normally require special regulations to post regulatory speed limit signs on highways.
If the time and funds are going to be spent to erect a sign, use on a sign that actual provides useful information to the driver such as the actual speed limit. It's bad enough try to remember U-turn and turn on red arrow regulations for each state. The same thing should not be done with speed limits. Especially since so many states very the speed limit by the type of road (Interstate, other state jurisdiction four lane, state jurisdiction two lane, non-state routes, and in worse cases it varies by the type of state highway).
Then you get the added difficulty with states that differentiate between urban and rural, with the definition of the urban not being consistent. Some times I think what the law defines as an "urban area" may not be readily apparent to a driver unfamiliar with the road in question. Take Illinois's definition for example:
Quote from: 625 ILCS 5/1-214The territory contiguous to and including any street which is built up with structures devoted to business, industry or dwelling houses situated at intervals of less than 100 feet for a distance of a quarter of a mile or more.
Quote from: roadman on September 11, 2019, 04:34:11 PM
Quote from: GaryV on September 11, 2019, 11:09:03 AM
Quote from: roadman on September 11, 2019, 09:24:57 AM
Seems to me a more effective way to deal with this would be to add a 'PRIMA-FACIE' plate below R2-1 signs where the sign denotes the prima-facie limit instead of one established by special regulation.
Then you'd have to explain to 99% + of the drivers what "prima-facie" means.
The purpose of having a Prima-Facie tab (or perhaps Statutory instead) is so that the posted limit is legally enforceable in states (like Massachusetts) that normally require special regulations to post regulatory speed limit signs on highways.
Perhaps a better approach is to get Massachusetts, et al, to change their silly law. Requiring special regulations just to post a speed limit is ridiculous.
Quote from: 1 on September 11, 2019, 05:35:52 PM
Exceeding a prima facie speed limit by itself isn't illegal.
Exactly.
You just have to show expert analysis and proof that the speed limit in effect at the time was too low. Feel free to hire your own engineering team, which will have to conduct a speed study and look over the engineering, design and construction of the roadway. Don't forget to ask the judge for a lengthy continuance so that the documents can be gathers and the conditions studied.
After the $25,000 is spent doing that, hopefully you can get that $100 speeding ticket dismissed.
Quote from: roadfro on September 13, 2019, 11:05:40 AM
Quote from: roadman on September 11, 2019, 04:34:11 PM
Quote from: GaryV on September 11, 2019, 11:09:03 AM
Quote from: roadman on September 11, 2019, 09:24:57 AM
Seems to me a more effective way to deal with this would be to add a 'PRIMA-FACIE' plate below R2-1 signs where the sign denotes the prima-facie limit instead of one established by special regulation.
Then you'd have to explain to 99% + of the drivers what "prima-facie" means.
The purpose of having a Prima-Facie tab (or perhaps Statutory instead) is so that the posted limit is legally enforceable in states (like Massachusetts) that normally require special regulations to post regulatory speed limit signs on highways.
Perhaps a better approach is to get Massachusetts, et al, to change their silly law. Requiring special regulations just to post a speed limit is ridiculous.
The reason for the special speed regulation requirement is to insure that posted limits have a legitimate basis, and aren't arbitrarily selected by politicians. Hardly silly if you ask me. And posting signs with 'Prima-Facie' or 'Statutory' tabs to distinguish the limit for enforcement purposes is far easier and less time consuming than trying to get the law changed.
Quote from: roadman on September 13, 2019, 11:20:01 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 13, 2019, 11:05:40 AM
Quote from: roadman on September 11, 2019, 04:34:11 PM
Quote from: GaryV on September 11, 2019, 11:09:03 AM
Quote from: roadman on September 11, 2019, 09:24:57 AM
Seems to me a more effective way to deal with this would be to add a 'PRIMA-FACIE' plate below R2-1 signs where the sign denotes the prima-facie limit instead of one established by special regulation.
Then you'd have to explain to 99% + of the drivers what "prima-facie" means.
The purpose of having a Prima-Facie tab (or perhaps Statutory instead) is so that the posted limit is legally enforceable in states (like Massachusetts) that normally require special regulations to post regulatory speed limit signs on highways.
Perhaps a better approach is to get Massachusetts, et al, to change their silly law. Requiring special regulations just to post a speed limit is ridiculous.
The reason for the special speed regulation requirement is to insure that posted limits have a legitimate basis, and aren't arbitrarily selected by politicians. Hardly silly if you ask me. And posting signs with 'Prima-Facie' or 'Statutory' tabs to distinguish the limit for enforcement purposes is far easier and less time consuming than trying to get the law changed.
This just reminded me of a strangle law in Delaware. Apparently, on certain roads, it is required to place a "Strictly Enforced" banner below the speed limit for municipal police agencies to actually issue a speeding ticket (Title 21, Section 701(c) (https://delcode.delaware.gov/title21/c007/index.shtml)).
Quote from: roadman on September 13, 2019, 11:20:01 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 13, 2019, 11:05:40 AM
Quote from: roadman on September 11, 2019, 04:34:11 PM
Quote from: GaryV on September 11, 2019, 11:09:03 AM
Quote from: roadman on September 11, 2019, 09:24:57 AM
Seems to me a more effective way to deal with this would be to add a 'PRIMA-FACIE' plate below R2-1 signs where the sign denotes the prima-facie limit instead of one established by special regulation.
Then you'd have to explain to 99% + of the drivers what "prima-facie" means.
The purpose of having a Prima-Facie tab (or perhaps Statutory instead) is so that the posted limit is legally enforceable in states (like Massachusetts) that normally require special regulations to post regulatory speed limit signs on highways.
Perhaps a better approach is to get Massachusetts, et al, to change their silly law. Requiring special regulations just to post a speed limit is ridiculous.
The reason for the special speed regulation requirement is to insure that posted limits have a legitimate basis, and aren't arbitrarily selected by politicians. Hardly silly if you ask me. And posting signs with 'Prima-Facie' or 'Statutory' tabs to distinguish the limit for enforcement purposes is far easier and less time consuming than trying to get the law changed.
A better approach would be for the law to require that speed limits be set based on the result of engineering analysis.
A "statutory" speed limit sign is fine if you happen to be from the area and know the state's default speed limits. But that doesn't tell anything to the visiting driver from another state or country, for whom you shouldn't reasonably expect to have researched the minutia of state driving laws prior to visiting. It also doesn't do anything to help distinguish between any state-level and municipal speed limit rules that may differ. If I'm not from from the area, I know exactly what "Speed Limit 45" means.
Quote from: ipeters61 on September 13, 2019, 01:25:39 PM
This just reminded me of a strangle law in Delaware. Apparently, on certain roads, it is required to place a "Strictly Enforced" banner below the speed limit for municipal police agencies to actually issue a speeding ticket (Title 21, Section 701(c) (https://delcode.delaware.gov/title21/c007/index.shtml)).
The way I read that statute, it applies specifically to *arrests* without a warrant for specific speed-related moving violations in accordance with the state's general speed restrictions and specific speed restrictions on specific state highways.
Quote from: roadfro on September 14, 2019, 10:25:38 AM
Quote from: ipeters61 on September 13, 2019, 01:25:39 PM
This just reminded me of a strangle law in Delaware. Apparently, on certain roads, it is required to place a "Strictly Enforced" banner below the speed limit for municipal police agencies to actually issue a speeding ticket (Title 21, Section 701(c) (https://delcode.delaware.gov/title21/c007/index.shtml)).
The way I read that statute, it applies specifically to *arrests* without a warrant for specific speed-related moving violations in accordance with the state's general speed restrictions and specific speed restrictions on specific state highways.
Ticket = arrest.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 14, 2019, 10:57:20 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 14, 2019, 10:25:38 AM
Quote from: ipeters61 on September 13, 2019, 01:25:39 PM
This just reminded me of a strangle law in Delaware. Apparently, on certain roads, it is required to place a "Strictly Enforced" banner below the speed limit for municipal police agencies to actually issue a speeding ticket (Title 21, Section 701(c) (https://delcode.delaware.gov/title21/c007/index.shtml)).
The way I read that statute, it applies specifically to *arrests* without a warrant for specific speed-related moving violations in accordance with the state's general speed restrictions and specific speed restrictions on specific state highways.
Ticket = arrest.
Agreed. I worked with police officers for the past year and a half and the terms "ticket" and "arrest" were interchanged frequently, whether it was a seat belt violation or a DUI (though "arrest" was always used when discussing DUI).
Quote from: ipeters61 on September 16, 2019, 08:44:07 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 14, 2019, 10:57:20 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 14, 2019, 10:25:38 AM
Quote from: ipeters61 on September 13, 2019, 01:25:39 PM
This just reminded me of a strangle law in Delaware. Apparently, on certain roads, it is required to place a "Strictly Enforced" banner below the speed limit for municipal police agencies to actually issue a speeding ticket (Title 21, Section 701(c) (https://delcode.delaware.gov/title21/c007/index.shtml)).
The way I read that statute, it applies specifically to *arrests* without a warrant for specific speed-related moving violations in accordance with the state's general speed restrictions and specific speed restrictions on specific state highways.
Ticket = arrest.
Agreed. I worked with police officers for the past year and a half and the terms "ticket" and "arrest" were interchanged frequently, whether it was a seat belt violation or a DUI (though "arrest" was always used when discussing DUI).
Yup. In Virginia, the form the cops use to issue a traffic ticket is the same one they use for criminal matters–the "Virginia Uniform Summons." They'll use the same form for a misdemeanor as they will for simple failure to stop at a stop sign. The summons lists the "arrest date" and the "arrest location," even if you weren't "taken into custody" in the sense of being hauled off to a police station or similar. The word "arrest" is simply one of those words that has a different meaning to the general public–no doubt influenced by TV shows and the like where the expression "you're under arrest" is used–than it does in the law. It's not hard to think of other such words, including in the road-related context. "Freeway" is a good example, IMO, because there are a lot of people out there who will object if you refer to a tolled highway as a "freeway" because "it's not free."
Quote from: roadfro on September 14, 2019, 10:15:10 AM
A better approach would be for the law to require that speed limits be set based on the result of engineering analysis.
The purpose of requiring a special speed regulation, which is based on a speed study done by the city or town and then reviewed by MassDOT Traffic Engineering staff for final approval by the MassDOT Traffic Engineer and RMV Registrar before signs can be posted, is to insure just that. Having a general "speed limits must be established as the result of engineering analysis" law presumes you have a mechanism in place to insure this requirement is met, and does not preclude the installation of signs before it is verified the limit is based on engineering analysis. IMO, it's much more time and cost effective, not to mention easier from a political perspective, to require the studies and reviews be done up front rather than have to review everything after the fact and then chase communities who've established speed limits that are not based on engineering analysis.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 17, 2019, 09:20:25 AM
Quote from: ipeters61 on September 16, 2019, 08:44:07 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 14, 2019, 10:57:20 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 14, 2019, 10:25:38 AM
Quote from: ipeters61 on September 13, 2019, 01:25:39 PM
This just reminded me of a strangle law in Delaware. Apparently, on certain roads, it is required to place a "Strictly Enforced" banner below the speed limit for municipal police agencies to actually issue a speeding ticket (Title 21, Section 701(c) (https://delcode.delaware.gov/title21/c007/index.shtml)).
The way I read that statute, it applies specifically to *arrests* without a warrant for specific speed-related moving violations in accordance with the state's general speed restrictions and specific speed restrictions on specific state highways.
Ticket = arrest.
Agreed. I worked with police officers for the past year and a half and the terms "ticket" and "arrest" were interchanged frequently, whether it was a seat belt violation or a DUI (though "arrest" was always used when discussing DUI).
Yup. In Virginia, the form the cops use to issue a traffic ticket is the same one they use for criminal matters–the "Virginia Uniform Summons." They'll use the same form for a misdemeanor as they will for simple failure to stop at a stop sign. The summons lists the "arrest date" and the "arrest location," even if you weren't "taken into custody" in the sense of being hauled off to a police station or similar. The word "arrest" is simply one of those words that has a different meaning to the general public–no doubt influenced by TV shows and the like where the expression "you're under arrest" is used–than it does in the law. It's not hard to think of other such words, including in the road-related context. "Freeway" is a good example, IMO, because there are a lot of people out there who will object if you refer to a tolled highway as a "freeway" because "it's not free."
It's worth noting that the entire concept of getting a ticket rather than being put in handcuffs and escorted to the police station was created specifically for traffic law, as such was resulting in otherwise law-abiding citizens who previously never would interact with the police in such a way getting infractions. There were also fears that juries would not vote to convict an otherwise law-abiding person of a traffic offense.
Quote from: roadman on September 17, 2019, 09:47:53 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 14, 2019, 10:15:10 AM
A better approach would be for the law to require that speed limits be set based on the result of engineering analysis.
The purpose of requiring a special speed regulation, which is based on a speed study done by the city or town and then reviewed by MassDOT Traffic Engineering staff for final approval by the MassDOT Traffic Engineer and RMV Registrar before signs can be posted, is to insure just that. Having a general "speed limits must be established as the result of engineering analysis" law presumes you have a mechanism in place to insure this requirement is met, and does not preclude the installation of signs before it is verified the limit is based on engineering analysis. IMO, it's much more time and cost effective, not to mention easier from a political perspective, to require the studies and reviews be done up front rather than have to review everything after the fact and then chase communities who've established speed limits that are not based on engineering analysis.
Fair enough. Just seems like a bunch of extra work the way that's presented. So no speed limit can be posted without a study, even like a residential road? And then that circles back to the issue of what to do with the lack of a specific speed limit...
Quote from: roadfro on September 17, 2019, 03:33:50 PM
Quote from: roadman on September 17, 2019, 09:47:53 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 14, 2019, 10:15:10 AM
A better approach would be for the law to require that speed limits be set based on the result of engineering analysis.
The purpose of requiring a special speed regulation, which is based on a speed study done by the city or town and then reviewed by MassDOT Traffic Engineering staff for final approval by the MassDOT Traffic Engineer and RMV Registrar before signs can be posted, is to insure just that. Having a general "speed limits must be established as the result of engineering analysis" law presumes you have a mechanism in place to insure this requirement is met, and does not preclude the installation of signs before it is verified the limit is based on engineering analysis. IMO, it's much more time and cost effective, not to mention easier from a political perspective, to require the studies and reviews be done up front rather than have to review everything after the fact and then chase communities who've established speed limits that are not based on engineering analysis.
Fair enough. Just seems like a bunch of extra work the way that's presented. So no speed limit can be posted without a study, even like a residential road? And then that circles back to the issue of what to do with the lack of a specific speed limit...
In Massachusetts, there are two exceptions to the special speed regulation (SSR) requirement. One is school zones, which can be posted (20 mph) by cities or towns without a SSR. The other, which was recently enacted by the Legislature, is that a city or town can establish a default speed limit of 25 mph for local streets and roads within the community that are not otherwise posted with an SSR. This blanket speed limit does not need MassDOT/RMV approval, but cities and towns that adopt it must inform MassDOT they've done so.
If you're asking what the sign would say if it were indicating "Go as fast as you want" you might just say "55+"
Just add a plus sign to it.
Quote from: roadman on September 13, 2019, 11:20:01 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 13, 2019, 11:05:40 AM
Quote from: roadman on September 11, 2019, 04:34:11 PM
Quote from: GaryV on September 11, 2019, 11:09:03 AM
Quote from: roadman on September 11, 2019, 09:24:57 AM
Seems to me a more effective way to deal with this would be to add a 'PRIMA-FACIE' plate below R2-1 signs where the sign denotes the prima-facie limit instead of one established by special regulation.
Then you'd have to explain to 99% + of the drivers what "prima-facie" means.
The purpose of having a Prima-Facie tab (or perhaps Statutory instead) is so that the posted limit is legally enforceable in states (like Massachusetts) that normally require special regulations to post regulatory speed limit signs on highways.
Perhaps a better approach is to get Massachusetts, et al, to change their silly law. Requiring special regulations just to post a speed limit is ridiculous.
The reason for the special speed regulation requirement is to insure that posted limits have a legitimate basis, and aren't arbitrarily selected by politicians. Hardly silly if you ask me. And posting signs with 'Prima-Facie' or 'Statutory' tabs to distinguish the limit for enforcement purposes is far easier and less time consuming than trying to get the law changed.
For a long time in California, "SPEED LIMIT XX" meant "PF SPEED LIMIT XX" and "MAXIMUM SPEED XX" meant "STATUTORY SPEED LIMIT XX". Sometime a few years ago, the distinction has been blurred. In California, Only 55 (for trucks and 2-lane undivided) and 65 and 70 MPH are statutory. Every other sign that you see is PF. There are default PF speed limits that are lower, but you will get cited for CVC 22350 ("Basic Speed Law"), if you violate them. There is a reason that most RADAR enforced limits give you a fairly generous cushion (often 15MPH) over the PF limit. Most RADAR enforcement takes place when the traffic cops have nothing better to do, so the weather is often good and the conditions are often good, so they want to avoid going to court over quibbles. As far as I know, on maximum speed limit RADAR, they only give you about 10% (5% for your equipment and 5% for theirs).
Quote from: michravera on November 10, 2019, 01:29:31 PM
For a long time in California, "SPEED LIMIT XX" meant "PF SPEED LIMIT XX" and "MAXIMUM SPEED XX" meant "STATUTORY SPEED LIMIT XX". Sometime a few years ago, the distinction has been blurred. In California, Only 55 (for trucks and 2-lane undivided) and 65 and 70 MPH are statutory. Every other sign that you see is PF. There are default PF speed limits that are lower, but you will get cited for CVC 22350 ("Basic Speed Law"), if you violate them. There is a reason that most RADAR enforced limits give you a fairly generous cushion (often 15MPH) over the PF limit. Most RADAR enforcement takes place when the traffic cops have nothing better to do, so the weather is often good and the conditions are often good, so they want to avoid going to court over quibbles. As far as I know, on maximum speed limit RADAR, they only give you about 10% (5% for your equipment and 5% for theirs).
I thought the Maximum Speed signs were only put up because of the National Maximum Speed Law since there was a need to distinguish the fact that California's Basic Speed Law didn't apply. At least that's what I remember reading on Wikipedia. I assume that the signs that still say "Maximum Speed" were just leftovers from that, especially since most of them have overlay panels on the numbers which suggests that the limit was changed, and the ones that don't were probably carbon copy replacements.
Example with overlay panel: https://goo.gl/maps/2JYhJxaP2WBdEBwG7. This has even since been replaced with a standard speed limit sign: https://goo.gl/maps/zgfjvPhHM19AGZqEA.
I'm somewhat surprised the cops only give 10% on statutory speed limits given most drivers still seem to exceed them by 15 mph anyway, though I suppose that could be due to lack of enforcement as you allude to.
Ohio used to use "Resume Legal Speed" at the end of construction zones, which wasn't particularly helpful if you weren't sure what the original speed limit was. Now, they've gone back to just posting a regular Speed Limit sign.
I've seen a couple "End / Speed Limit XX" assemblies in Ohio and a few "End XX MPH Speed," but just posting a "Speed Limit 55" is what is used in the overwhelming number of cases.
Quote from: stevashe on November 10, 2019, 03:02:20 PM
Quote from: michravera on November 10, 2019, 01:29:31 PM
For a long time in California, "SPEED LIMIT XX" meant "PF SPEED LIMIT XX" and "MAXIMUM SPEED XX" meant "STATUTORY SPEED LIMIT XX". Sometime a few years ago, the distinction has been blurred. In California, Only 55 (for trucks and 2-lane undivided) and 65 and 70 MPH are statutory. Every other sign that you see is PF. There are default PF speed limits that are lower, but you will get cited for CVC 22350 ("Basic Speed Law"), if you violate them. There is a reason that most RADAR enforced limits give you a fairly generous cushion (often 15MPH) over the PF limit. Most RADAR enforcement takes place when the traffic cops have nothing better to do, so the weather is often good and the conditions are often good, so they want to avoid going to court over quibbles. As far as I know, on maximum speed limit RADAR, they only give you about 10% (5% for your equipment and 5% for theirs).
I thought the Maximum Speed signs were only put up because of the National Maximum Speed Law since there was a need to distinguish the fact that California's Basic Speed Law didn't apply. At least that's what I remember reading on Wikipedia. I assume that the signs that still say "Maximum Speed" were just leftovers from that, especially since most of them have overlay panels on the numbers which suggests that the limit was changed, and the ones that don't were probably carbon copy replacements.
Example with overlay panel: https://goo.gl/maps/2JYhJxaP2WBdEBwG7. This has even since been replaced with a standard speed limit sign: https://goo.gl/maps/zgfjvPhHM19AGZqEA.
I'm somewhat surprised the cops only give 10% on statutory speed limits given most drivers still seem to exceed them by 15 mph anyway, though I suppose that could be due to lack of enforcement as you allude to.
The term "Maximum Speed" is used in the CVC. The "Maximum Speed" signs predate the NMSL. There were "Maximum Speed 70" (with or without the "MPH") in the early 1970s for sure. They probably have existed since Edmund G. ("Pat") Brown, Sr's term of office (that's before Reagan). I believe that Pat was Governor when they raised the speed limit to 65 with some 70 on freeways. (Governor Goodnight may have raised the default to 65).
Apparently there is (was?) a Missouri version of the 'end speed zone' sign for temporary situations, which reads 'resume speed thank you'. (http://epg.modot.org/index.php/File:R2-9.gif)
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 07, 2020, 06:19:40 PM
Apparently there is (was?) a Missouri version of the 'end speed zone' sign for temporary situations, which reads 'resume speed thank you'. (http://epg.modot.org/index.php/File:R2-9.gif)
TIL MoDOT runs a wiki...
In Oregon there's a few signs that say "END XX MILE SPEED" or "END XX MPH SPEED ZONE". They imply no speed limit but iirc are the equivalent of a Speed Limit 55 sign.
(https://i.imgur.com/8lHeMC1.jpg)
Quote from: CovalenceSTU on April 05, 2020, 04:10:47 AM
In Oregon there's a few signs that say "END XX MILE SPEED" or "END XX MPH SPEED ZONE". They imply no speed limit but iirc are the equivalent of a Speed Limit 55 sign.
(https://i.imgur.com/8lHeMC1.jpg)
I just saw one in Delaware today, I'm seen them around the state before but never took a photo. This is on Seaford Road south of Blades. However, DelDOT's MUTCD has deprecated this (see page 30 of this document (https://deldot.gov/Publications/manuals/de_mutcd/pdfs/draft/DEMUTCD_Part2_T2_training_021011.pdf?cache=1587864150595)). As this is a two-lane rural road, the statutory speed limit here is 50 MPH, not the "no speed limit" that this might imply. Almost immediately after this sign, a Speed Limit 50 sign is posted.
(https://i.ibb.co/b5xbMp5/image.png) (https://ibb.co/7tHkd7t)
^^^^^
I know of at least one "End 45 Mile Speed" sign in Virginia. It's on secondary route 624 in Warren County–we passed it on March 15 on our way home from Linden. Street View has a photo. The sign means the speed limit then defaults to 55. I was probably going faster than 55 even before this sign and my wife wasn't amused.
https://goo.gl/maps/ofGx2bWtanREmw1v9
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 25, 2020, 09:47:26 PM
^^^^^
I know of at least one "End 45 Mile Speed" sign in Virginia. It's on secondary route 624 in Warren County–we passed it on March 15 on our way home from Linden. Street View has a photo. The sign means the speed limit then defaults to 55. I was probably going faster than 55 even before this sign and my wife wasn't amused.
https://goo.gl/maps/ofGx2bWtanREmw1v9
Here's another find on Pitchkettle Rd in Suffolk, VA, about a mile off of US-58. Didn't realize they were posted in Virginia before, let alone Hampton Roads.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7605182,-76.6281813,3a,47.2y,337.57h,87.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEW0R85XiglUCb1hQM2d27g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 05, 2020, 12:41:04 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 25, 2020, 09:47:26 PM
^^^^^
I know of at least one "End 45 Mile Speed" sign in Virginia. It's on secondary route 624 in Warren County–we passed it on March 15 on our way home from Linden. Street View has a photo. The sign means the speed limit then defaults to 55. I was probably going faster than 55 even before this sign and my wife wasn't amused.
https://goo.gl/maps/ofGx2bWtanREmw1v9
Here's another find on Pitchkettle Rd in Suffolk, VA, about a mile off of US-58. Didn't realize they were posted in Virginia before, let alone Hampton Roads.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7605182,-76.6281813,3a,47.2y,337.57h,87.87t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEW0R85XiglUCb1hQM2d27g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
There used to be an "End 65 Mile Speed" sign at the eastern end of the Dulles Greenway as you approached the toll plaza. It's been gone for some time now, and rightly so, IMO, because the speed limit drops to 35 due to the toll plaza, whereas an "End 65 Mile Speed" technically means it drops to 55 mph (not that most people on the road in Virginia would have any idea about that, of course!). Old Street View images don't show the old sign.
I have seen examples of an "END XX LIMIT" or similar sign in California, New York, and Virginia, like the NY example posted above. These three states seem to use these extensively, particularly where 55 is not safe at the end of a speed zone. At least in NY, some counties use this almost exclusively instead of 55 signs, while others will usually post 55 signs. NYSDOT generally only places an "END XX LIMIT" if geometry makes traveling close to 55 unsafe.
Pennsylvania, as mentioned above, routinely places an "END" banner over the lowered speed limit to signify the end of a speed zone.
Quote from: cl94 on May 10, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
I have seen examples of an "END XX LIMIT" or similar sign in California, New York, and Virginia, like the NY example posted above. These three states seem to use these extensively, particularly where 55 is not safe at the end of a speed zone. At least in NY, some counties use this almost exclusively instead of 55 signs, while others will usually post 55 signs. NYSDOT generally only places an "END XX LIMIT" if geometry makes traveling close to 55 unsafe.
Pennsylvania, as mentioned above, routinely places an "END" banner over the lowered speed limit to signify the end of a speed zone.
I remember a couple two-lane roads in PA - can't remember where - where there's an "End Speed Limit 35" sign - seemingly leading to a 55 - with a 45 sign a couple minutes later. No 55 sign in sight - it's unclear if the zone between "End 35" and "Speed Limit 45" is 45 or 55. Generally I treat them as 55...
Quote from: cl94 on May 10, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
I have seen examples of an "END XX LIMIT" or similar sign in California, New York, and Virginia, like the NY example posted above. These three states seem to use these extensively, particularly where 55 is not safe at the end of a speed zone. At least in NY, some counties use this almost exclusively instead of 55 signs, while others will usually post 55 signs. NYSDOT generally only places an "END XX LIMIT" if geometry makes traveling close to 55 unsafe.
Pennsylvania, as mentioned above, routinely places an "END" banner over the lowered speed limit to signify the end of a speed zone.
I don't believe Virginia uses that sign "extensively." In my observation over the years, they're quite unusual and normally a sign just tells you what the new speed limit is when it changes (e.g., you reach the end of a 45 zone and you see a normal "Speed Limit 55" sign).
I will admit I have not travelled much in far Southwest Virginia other than on I-81, so maybe they're more common there.
Quote from: Ketchup99 on May 10, 2020, 03:51:10 PM
Quote from: cl94 on May 10, 2020, 02:58:45 PM
I have seen examples of an "END XX LIMIT" or similar sign in California, New York, and Virginia, like the NY example posted above. These three states seem to use these extensively, particularly where 55 is not safe at the end of a speed zone. At least in NY, some counties use this almost exclusively instead of 55 signs, while others will usually post 55 signs. NYSDOT generally only places an "END XX LIMIT" if geometry makes traveling close to 55 unsafe.
Pennsylvania, as mentioned above, routinely places an "END" banner over the lowered speed limit to signify the end of a speed zone.
I remember a couple two-lane roads in PA - can't remember where - where there's an "End Speed Limit 35" sign - seemingly leading to a 55 - with a 45 sign a couple minutes later. No 55 sign in sight - it's unclear if the zone between "End 35" and "Speed Limit 45" is 45 or 55. Generally I treat them as 55...
PA is a default 55 state. While not actually signing it, they permit 55 without actually promoting 55, prior to the 45 zone.
Every state should be like CT:
- No municipality has the authority to set its own speed limit. All speed limits are set by the DOT and based on engineering studies.
- There is a basic speed law for situations where road conditions or design may require a driver to slow below the posted speed limit.
- All public roads must have a posted, statutory speed limit. There should be established a maximum posted speed limit that takes the place of any "safe" limit laws. In CT it's 55 (except for limited-access roads, which may be 65).
-Advisory limits are not enforceable as prima facie but are under the basic speed law.
- A speed limit sign does not establish a limit by itself. Official limits are kept in a publicly-accessible log. Whatever is in there is what it is, even if there's a change and they forgot to take the old sign down.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 12, 2020, 12:47:37 AM
- A speed limit sign does not establish a limit by itself. Official limits are kept in a publicly-accessible log. Whatever is in there is what it is, even if there's a change and they forgot to take the old sign down.
Are the official limits in the database enforceable even if the signs haven't been changed? Seems pretty unfair if so.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 12, 2020, 12:47:37 AM
Every state should be like CT:
- All public roads must have a posted, statutory speed limit.
I see little need to waste money on speed limit signs for, say,
this road (https://goo.gl/maps/p5MFkZVTqHxyYUmj8).
Quote from: US 89 on May 12, 2020, 01:37:45 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 12, 2020, 12:47:37 AM
- A speed limit sign does not establish a limit by itself. Official limits are kept in a publicly-accessible log. Whatever is in there is what it is, even if there's a change and they forgot to take the old sign down.
Are the official limits in the database enforceable even if the signs haven't been changed? Seems pretty unfair if so.
Yeah, if they try to enforce what's in the database over what's signed, it could get thrown out in court pretty easily.
Quote from: US 89 on May 12, 2020, 01:37:45 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 12, 2020, 12:47:37 AM
- A speed limit sign does not establish a limit by itself. Official limits are kept in a publicly-accessible log. Whatever is in there is what it is, even if there's a change and they forgot to take the old sign down.
Are the official limits in the database enforceable even if the signs haven't been changed? Seems pretty unfair if so.
I would argue that, yes. Once the change is made by OSTA, the prima facie speed limit is in effect. Now would a law enforcement officer know that? Probably not. So if CONNDOT or the town forgets to take down an old sign on a road which the limit was increased and you get cited for speeding, bring it to court with the page from the official logbook with the new limit.
It actually says that OSTA
may estsblish speed limits, so it's actually not required to.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 13, 2020, 09:55:44 PM
Quote from: US 89 on May 12, 2020, 01:37:45 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 12, 2020, 12:47:37 AM
- A speed limit sign does not establish a limit by itself. Official limits are kept in a publicly-accessible log. Whatever is in there is what it is, even if there's a change and they forgot to take the old sign down.
Are the official limits in the database enforceable even if the signs haven't been changed? Seems pretty unfair if so.
I would argue that, yes. Once the change is made by OSTA, the prima facie speed limit is in effect. Now would a law enforcement officer know that? Probably not. So if CONNDOT or the town forgets to take down an old sign on a road which the limit was increased and you get cited for speeding, bring it to court with the page from the official logbook with the new limit.
It actually says that OSTA may estsblish speed limits, so it's actually not required to.
US 89 was probably thinking about it going the other way... speed limit was lowered but the sign wasn't changed, and the officer unforced the new, lower, limit.