Imagine that there's a no turn on red sign at a signal that straddles the state line. If you turn right on red, you will cross the state line immediately. Since federal police don't do traffic enforcement, nobody can stop you.
Are there any examples of this or similar unenforceable signs?
Quote from: 1 on January 11, 2020, 10:12:53 AM
Imagine that there's a no turn on red sign at a signal that straddles the state line. If you turn right on red, you will cross the state line immediately. Since federal police don't do traffic enforcement, nobody can stop you.
Are there any examples of this or similar unenforceable signs?
Wouldn't the state line be in the middle of the street making the half of the road you turned right on in the same state since the other state would begin in the middle of the street?
Technically not unenforceable, but I'm thinking of the "Speed Limit 65" sign on northbound I-75 past OH-184 in Toledo, about a half mile before the Michigan state line where the speed limit increases to 70. Nobody's going 60 or 65 at that point.
Quote from: 1 on January 11, 2020, 10:12:53 AM
Imagine that there's a no turn on red sign at a signal that straddles the state line. If you turn right on red, you will cross the state line immediately. Since federal police don't do traffic enforcement, nobody can stop you.
Are there any examples of this or similar unenforceable signs?
Sure they can. Law enforcement agencies have inter-jurisdictional agreements for just such instances.
Wouldn't the NTOR sign be on the other side of the intersection? And therefore within the other jurisdiction? Making it enforceable?
I don't think this is a thing, for the exact reason mentioned above by HB. The catch is that, while virtually everything is enforceable by any cop, even those outside their jurisdiction, the hoops that have to be jumped through to actually follow through with prosecution rarely make it worth their while. Something seriously wrong has to be occurring for them to bother at all.
A couple days ago I saw a cop car from a county a couple hours away. If he stops someone for speeding, who gets the money - his county since he made the stop, or the county where he physically made the stop?
Quote from: 1 on January 11, 2020, 10:12:53 AM
Imagine that there's a no turn on red sign at a signal that straddles the state line. If you turn right on red, you will cross the state line immediately. Since federal police don't do traffic enforcement, nobody can stop you.
Sure, but local police can stop you. Are you really going to ignore them?
Furthermore, there's not a single judge out there that will care about this supposed technicality.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on January 11, 2020, 09:25:24 PM
A couple days ago I saw a cop car from a county a couple hours away. If he stops someone for speeding, who gets the money - his county since he made the stop, or the county where he physically made the stop?
It would be the county where the stop is made.
That said, most likely the cop was there for training, a court case or other issue. He wants nothing to do with a traffic stop. He just wants to get to where he's going, or wants to get home.
I see out-of-jurisdiction cops on my commute fairly often. Sometimes they are sitting in the right lane going the speed limit because of policy. Rush hour commuters are wise to this...and we are passing just like they're any other vehicle. Others are going must faster. Again, no issues worrying about them.
Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.
I saw an Iosco County Sheriff on I-75 in Saginaw County the other day. There are two counties in between Iosco and Saginaw. He was traveling north I'm assuming he was going back to Iosco County.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 12, 2020, 12:56:01 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on January 11, 2020, 09:25:24 PM
A couple days ago I saw a cop car from a county a couple hours away. If he stops someone for speeding, who gets the money - his county since he made the stop, or the county where he physically made the stop?
It would be the county where the stop is made.
That said, most likely the cop was there for training, a court case or other issue. He wants nothing to do with a traffic stop. He just wants to get to where he's going, or wants to get home.
I see out-of-jurisdiction cops on my commute fairly often. Sometimes they are sitting in the right lane going the speed limit because of policy. Rush hour commuters are wise to this...and we are passing just like they're any other vehicle. Others are going must faster. Again, no issues worrying about them.
Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.
My daily driver is a white Charger. And as so many unmarked - or half-marked - police cruisers are white Chargers here, some other drivers slow down when they see my car. On a freeway, it's funny, but on a small road when I can't pass the slow one, it turns to be annoying.
Any time a VMS displays a lower speed limit it's generally not enforceable, unless it's a speed limit sign with a variable display or codified by statute.
I wonder if that argument has ever been successfully argued.
Quote from: Rothman on January 12, 2020, 10:01:13 AM
I wonder if that argument has ever been successfully argued.
It's the argument I would use.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on January 12, 2020, 10:03:30 AM
Quote from: Rothman on January 12, 2020, 10:01:13 AM
I wonder if that argument has ever been successfully argued.
It's the argument I would use.
You presented it as fact, though. We'll see if your argument works when the time comes.
The Revised Code of Washington (State) has a specific section for variable limits:
Quote from: RCW 46.61.415
(5) Any altered limit established as hereinbefore authorized shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected. Such maximum speed limit may be declared to be effective at all times or at such times as are indicated upon such signs; and differing limits may be established for different times of day, different types of vehicles, varying weather conditions, and other factors bearing on safe speeds, which shall be effective when posted upon appropriate fixed or variable signs.
I can think of several stretches of freeway in Washington with completely digital speed limit signs (I-90, I-5, WA-520), so they would have to be enforceable. Not that it would matter, since the default limit for state highways is the default displayed limit.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 12, 2020, 12:56:01 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on January 11, 2020, 09:25:24 PM
A couple days ago I saw a cop car from a county a couple hours away. If he stops someone for speeding, who gets the money - his county since he made the stop, or the county where he physically made the stop?
It would be the county where the stop is made.
That said, most likely the cop was there for training, a court case or other issue. He wants nothing to do with a traffic stop. He just wants to get to where he's going, or wants to get home.
I see out-of-jurisdiction cops on my commute fairly often. Sometimes they are sitting in the right lane going the speed limit because of policy. Rush hour commuters are wise to this...and we are passing just like they're any other vehicle. Others are going must faster. Again, no issues worrying about them.
Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.
Prisoner transports are also another reason. I see this often, as there is a state youth detention center near my office and we see lots of out-of-county sheriff vehicles.
What ticks me off is when one of these sheriff's deputies or local cops leave their radar units on when they're well out of their jurisdiction. I'm not happy if my V-1 alerts, I slow down to the speed limit, and then I see I'm meeting a cop from the other side of the state who's just passing through.
Quote from: hbelkins on January 12, 2020, 07:48:39 PM
What ticks me off is when one of these sheriff's deputies or local cops leave their radar units on when they're well out of their jurisdiction. I'm not happy if my V-1 alerts, I slow down to the speed limit, and then I see I'm meeting a cop from the other side of the state who's just passing through.
V-1, for those who go for the gold in the speeding Olympics!
I've actually never known anyone to own one, or even see a mention of them beyond ads in Car & Driver.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 12, 2020, 12:56:01 AM
I see out-of-jurisdiction cops on my commute fairly often.
Others are going must faster.
Because they understand that it is perfectly safe to do so. In other words, all traffic enforcement is illegitimate and all traffics enforcers are hypocrites.
Quote
Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.
Imagine that. A person whose "job" is to pullover people driving safe and fast on roads designed to be driven safe and fast upon, and then extorting from then, at the point of a gun and under threat of jail, 100s of $$ for doing something they themselves do and which almost every one does, inconvenienced by people actually obeying the STUPID, UNFAIR, EVIL, and IMMORAL laws that THEY enforce.
Quote from: SP Cook on January 13, 2020, 09:37:04 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 12, 2020, 12:56:01 AM
I see out-of-jurisdiction cops on my commute fairly often.
Others are going must faster.
Because they understand that it is perfectly safe to do so. In other words, all traffic enforcement is illegitimate and all traffics enforcers are hypocrites.
Quote
Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.
Imagine that. A person whose "job" is to pullover people driving safe and fast on roads designed to be driven safe and fast upon, and then extorting from then, at the point of a gun and under threat of jail, 100s of $$ for doing something they themselves do and which almost every one does, inconvenienced by people actually obeying the STUPID, UNFAIR, EVIL, and IMMORAL laws that THEY enforce.
It's rare that I see a cop obeying the speed limit. I'm often passed by those above-mentioned out-of-town officers going 85-90 mph without having their emergency equipment on. They know they'll never be pulled over in whatever jurisdiction they're passing through because of what they call "professional courtesy."
When I was working in Frankfort, I would occasionally get behind a Kentucky state trooper between Lexington and Frankfort on I-64 who was driving right at the speed limit. Traffic stacked up behind him when this happened.
Quote from: SP Cook on January 13, 2020, 09:37:04 AM
Quote
Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.
Imagine that. A person whose "job" is to pullover people driving safe and fast on roads designed to be driven safe and fast upon, and then extorting from then, at the point of a gun and under threat of jail, 100s of $$ for doing something they themselves do and which almost every one does, inconvenienced by people actually obeying the STUPID, UNFAIR, EVIL, and IMMORAL laws that THEY enforce.
You must have some pretty enthusiastic cops if they're pulling guns on people for speeding.
Its actually the culture of normalized deviance and selective enforcement that is stupid, unfair, evil and immoral. The idea that speeders do it "safe and fast" is simply false, its not like drivers aren't breaking a bunch of other justified laws in addition to speeding. The fact that the same speeders will drop to speed limit minus 10 when they see a cop proves that they definitely aren't the highly trained autobahn drivers you imagine them to be.
If a cop is driving the speed limit and "slowing down" traffic, good. If a cop wants to speed but is "inconvenienced" by people driving the speed limit due to their presence, also good.
Speed limits are not set for safety by the state of the art of research on accident data. The old mantra that "speed kills" is really obsolete. We now know that the class of facility and a whole host of other factors come into play. Add actual design speeds of interstate highways and speed limits as set lack all the more founding.
Yand's advocacy for "nestoring" stems from a need for control for control's sake rather than an actual safety need.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 12, 2020, 12:56:01 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on January 11, 2020, 09:25:24 PM
A couple days ago I saw a cop car from a county a couple hours away. If he stops someone for speeding, who gets the money - his county since he made the stop, or the county where he physically made the stop?
It would be the county where the stop is made.
That said, most likely the cop was there for training, a court case or other issue. He wants nothing to do with a traffic stop. He just wants to get to where he's going, or wants to get home.
I see out-of-jurisdiction cops on my commute fairly often. Sometimes they are sitting in the right lane going the speed limit because of policy. Rush hour commuters are wise to this...and we are passing just like they're any other vehicle. Others are going must faster. Again, no issues worrying about them.
Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.
My cousin is a state trooper in Indiana. They drive their police vehicles for personal use unless they are leaving the state. He constantly gets slowed down by drivers slowing down for him, because they don't know when he is or isn't on duty (which is kinda the point of having them all drive their police cars while off duty).
Quote from: 1 on January 11, 2020, 10:12:53 AM
Imagine that there's a no turn on red sign at a signal that straddles the state line. If you turn right on red, you will cross the state line immediately. Since federal police don't do traffic enforcement, nobody can stop you.
What about the cop that sees you from a parking spot on the far side of the state line? He sees you turn right at the red light, then pulls out behind you and pulls you over within his jurisdiction.
My contribution would be speed limits in between customs controls along the US-Mexican border.
Quote from: kphoger on January 13, 2020, 02:45:19 PM
My contribution would be speed limits in between customs controls along the US-Mexican border.
Not that I would advocate doing that, but the land in between the customs stations, is often private property if it is a bridge, but a land crossing would be federal jurisdiction. CBP on the US side.
Buddy of mine got a federal speeding ticket going to a meeting at the FBI Center in Clarksburg, WV. The road up to the place is patrolled by the "FBI Police" which federal cops that do security for DOJ locations. Had to go to Federal courthouse to pay his random tax. I have also seen lots of Park Police and such running radar on things like the Blue Ridge Parkway.
Quote from: kphoger on January 13, 2020, 02:45:19 PM
My contribution would be speed limits in between customs controls along the US-Mexican border.
I suspect that can be enforced as aggressive behavior at security installation, and you would LOVE to get just a fine once that happens
So are y'all suggesting that CBP and Mexican military officers are running radar?
Quote from: kphoger on January 13, 2020, 03:25:14 PM
So are y'all suggesting that CBP and Mexican military officers are running radar?
No, but they carry guns. And if they assume you want to ram into something - or someone....
Quote from: Rothman on January 13, 2020, 01:47:25 PM
Speed limits are not set for safety by the state of the art of research on accident data. The old mantra that "speed kills" is really obsolete. We now know that the class of facility and a whole host of other factors come into play. Add actual design speeds of interstate highways and speed limits as set lack all the more founding.
Yand's advocacy for "nestoring" stems from a need for control for control's sake rather than an actual safety need.
I am all for adjusting the speed limit where the science supports it. The fact that you use the phrase "design speed" means that you understand there are speeds above which any section of road is not designed for, hence the necessity of a speed limit. What if a cop were "nestoring" at the design speed? Would you be for it then?
Nobody should have to read the 2002 memorandum issued by the X County PD for enforcement guidelines to find out that the effective (enforced) speed limit for roads through this particular 12 mile jurisdiction is actually posted + 10mph, but the 2012 guidelines for the next county over says speed limit +15. It is completely untransparent and unfair for traffic signs to not say what they mean.
People who break the law also make driving harder for people trying to follow the law, especially during eg. merging where people creating huge speed differentials by deviating from the legal speed of traffic cause safety issues. The more people who follow the speed limit, the less resistance there will be to raising it.
Quote from: Richard3 on January 12, 2020, 09:07:56 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 12, 2020, 12:56:01 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on January 11, 2020, 09:25:24 PM
A couple days ago I saw a cop car from a county a couple hours away. If he stops someone for speeding, who gets the money - his county since he made the stop, or the county where he physically made the stop?
It would be the county where the stop is made.
That said, most likely the cop was there for training, a court case or other issue. He wants nothing to do with a traffic stop. He just wants to get to where he's going, or wants to get home.
I see out-of-jurisdiction cops on my commute fairly often. Sometimes they are sitting in the right lane going the speed limit because of policy. Rush hour commuters are wise to this...and we are passing just like they're any other vehicle. Others are going must faster. Again, no issues worrying about them.
Some cops hate driving their patrol vehicle for these things, because they're constantly dealing with people slowing down when they see the car.
My daily driver is a white Charger. And as so many unmarked - or half-marked - police cruisers are white Chargers here, some other drivers slow down when they see my car. On a freeway, it's funny, but on a small road when I can't pass the slow one, it turns to be annoying.
my old car was a white Hyundai Elantra with a deflector on the sunroof. people slowed down in front of me ALL THE TIME - at a glance, any white car behind you with a horizontal something on the roof reads as "police car."
Quote from: yand on January 13, 2020, 01:41:40 PM
If a cop is driving the speed limit and "slowing down" traffic, good. If a cop wants to speed but is "inconvenienced" by people driving the speed limit due to their presence, also good.
Mmmm, boots.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on January 13, 2020, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: yand on January 13, 2020, 01:41:40 PM
If a cop is driving the speed limit and "slowing down" traffic, good. If a cop wants to speed but is "inconvenienced" by people driving the speed limit due to their presence, also good.
Mmmm, boots.
As opposed to a system where everyone breaks the law, giving cops legal cause to pull over anyone they don't like? :hmmm:
I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on January 13, 2020, 07:32:10 PM
I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.
Notably in many states with artificially low 55 mph or 60 mph speed limits on rural divided highways solely due to functional class limiting any roads without full control of access to those speeds, that engineering wise could easily handle speed limits between 65 mph and 70 mph.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on January 13, 2020, 07:32:10 PM
I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.
Well no. They are designed for revenue enhancement.
Quote from: 1 on January 11, 2020, 10:12:53 AM
Imagine that there's a no turn on red sign at a signal that straddles the state line. If you turn right on red, you will cross the state line immediately. Since federal police don't do traffic enforcement, nobody can stop you.
Are there any examples of this or similar unenforceable signs?
California has a treaty with neighboring states allowing them to enforce our laws (and vice-versa, I think).
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on January 13, 2020, 07:32:10 PM
I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.
All I'm saying is, whether current speed limits are arbitrary or not, the current system where breaking the law is normalized and drivers are pressured into rolling the dice on being pulled over, is far more boot-licky than taking speed limit signs at face value.
Quote from: yand on January 14, 2020, 07:07:04 AM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on January 13, 2020, 07:32:10 PM
I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.
All I'm saying is, whether current speed limits are arbitrary or not, the current system where breaking the law is normalized and drivers are pressured into rolling the dice on being pulled over, is far more boot-licky than taking speed limit signs at face value.
Looks like this is drifting very much off-topic. Do we want mods to split threads, rename the thread, or do something else?..
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on January 13, 2020, 07:32:10 PM
I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.
What's your solution? A study on every mile of road in the nation?
Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2020, 04:37:15 PM
The Revised Code of Washington (State) has a specific section for variable limits:
Quote from: RCW 46.61.415
(5) Any altered limit established as hereinbefore authorized shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected. Such maximum speed limit may be declared to be effective at all times or at such times as are indicated upon such signs; and differing limits may be established for different times of day, different types of vehicles, varying weather conditions, and other factors bearing on safe speeds, which shall be effective when posted upon appropriate fixed or variable signs.
I can think of several stretches of freeway in Washington with completely digital speed limit signs (I-90, I-5, WA-520), so they would have to be enforceable. Not that it would matter, since the default limit for state highways is the default displayed limit.
That is one state out of 50.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on January 14, 2020, 11:59:01 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2020, 04:37:15 PM
The Revised Code of Washington (State) has a specific section for variable limits:
Quote from: RCW 46.61.415
(5) Any altered limit established as hereinbefore authorized shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected. Such maximum speed limit may be declared to be effective at all times or at such times as are indicated upon such signs; and differing limits may be established for different times of day, different types of vehicles, varying weather conditions, and other factors bearing on safe speeds, which shall be effective when posted upon appropriate fixed or variable signs.
I can think of several stretches of freeway in Washington with completely digital speed limit signs (I-90, I-5, WA-520), so they would have to be enforceable. Not that it would matter, since the default limit for state highways is the default displayed limit.
That is one state out of 50.
Well sure. I guess my point is that, in states where variable limits are either common or even the norm in some areas, it's likely that they are codified to be legal. In states where maybe there's only one stretch, perhaps as a study, that may not necessarily be the case. Washington State has quite a lot of lane-miles of variable limit-controlled freeways, so it makes sense that they would be legally enforceable.
Quote from: kphoger on January 14, 2020, 11:56:04 AM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on January 13, 2020, 07:32:10 PM
I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.
What's your solution? A study on every mile of road in the nation?
Every road was designed with a certain speed in mind. So why not use that?
I'm also not asking that every single mile be re-examined. Or that any mileage is re-examined, for that matter. Don't be putting words into my mouth.
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on January 15, 2020, 10:26:06 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 14, 2020, 11:56:04 AM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on January 13, 2020, 07:32:10 PM
I'm not suggesting that. What I'm really going after, besides the reference to boot licking, is the fact that a lot of speed limits in the US are arbitrary and not truly based on actual engineering/traffic data.
What's your solution? A study on every mile of road in the nation?
Every road was designed with a certain speed in mind. So why not use that?
I'm also not asking that every single mile be re-examined. Or that any mileage is re-examined, for that matter. Don't be putting words into my mouth.
How else can it be determined which speed limits are arbitrary? The only way to know would be to look up the design speed for each segment of highway, along with any subsequent engineering or traffic data studies.
I-205 Bridge, Washington-Oregon. (https://goo.gl/maps/mh4RNez7giAqEDjY9) Typical Oregon lowered 55 speed limit from Washington's 60 as soon as you get on the bridge, but we're still over dry land in Washington. Since the bigger urban area is on the Oregon side, Oregon effectively maintains the bridge for Washington. I guess by the time the cops catch up to you, you'll be in Oregon. In practice, the Oregon drivers immediately slow down to 55, catching Washington drivers (me) off guard.
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on January 15, 2020, 08:44:55 PM
I-205 Bridge, Washington-Oregon. (https://goo.gl/maps/mh4RNez7giAqEDjY9) Typical Oregon lowered 55 speed limit from Washington's 60 as soon as you get on the bridge, but we're still over dry land in Washington. Since the bigger urban area is on the Oregon side, Oregon effectively maintains the bridge for Washington. I guess by the time the cops catch up to you, you'll be in Oregon. In practice, the Oregon drivers immediately slow down to 55, catching Washington drivers (me) off guard.
As has been already stated up-thread, police generally have inter-agency agreements. I'm sure the WA highway patrol could pull you over in Oregon if you were speeding in WA. The bigger question, though, is this: would there actually
be a WA trooper on that stretch of road to begin with?
Quote from: kphoger on January 16, 2020, 01:04:24 PM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on January 15, 2020, 08:44:55 PM
I-205 Bridge, Washington-Oregon. (https://goo.gl/maps/mh4RNez7giAqEDjY9) Typical Oregon lowered 55 speed limit from Washington's 60 as soon as you get on the bridge, but we're still over dry land in Washington. Since the bigger urban area is on the Oregon side, Oregon effectively maintains the bridge for Washington. I guess by the time the cops catch up to you, you'll be in Oregon. In practice, the Oregon drivers immediately slow down to 55, catching Washington drivers (me) off guard.
As has been already stated up-thread, police generally have inter-agency agreements. I'm sure the WA highway patrol could pull you over in Oregon if you were speeding in WA. The bigger question, though, is this: would there actually be a WA trooper on that stretch of road to begin with?
It is a bit hard for me to believe that the trooper would have to lead with "Oregon says you can't go over 55...", even though yes, there are interagency agreements. Within a state seems more reasonable to me, than one state police, policing another state.
Am I misunderstanding? I thought the speed limit sign was in Washington.
Quote from: kphoger on January 16, 2020, 07:48:24 PM
Am I misunderstanding? I thought the speed limit sign was in Washington.
Technically yes. But Oregon maintains the bridge, and I believe enforcement for speed along the bridge is performed by OSP
So, then, Oregon can pull you over.
Quote from: kphoger on January 16, 2020, 08:15:56 PM
So, then, Oregon can pull you over.
Yeah...no? I'm not sure. Shit. The border itself should be the barrier between OSP and WSP, but I don't think it is. Honestly, I don't know what the situation is. I suspect WSP could still pull you over, as the northern section of the bridge is within WA's borders. But I don't think they actively patrol the bridge, leaving it to Oregon.
Hypothetically, if a Washington cop stopped you on the southbound bridge going 60 in a 55, he would be enforcing OR law with regards to limits (WA does not use 55 on interstates, only 60 or 70 except in variable zones). OR has to have posted the 55 limit, but the sign itself is within the WA border (alongside the excessive "HELMET REQUIRED" signs).
Frankly, I don't think interagency agreements include anything about regular speeding. Excessive speed? Sure. But like 10 over? Not worth the hassle. I doubt either WSP or OSP patrol this bridge because of the uncertainty.
Quote from: kphoger on January 16, 2020, 07:48:24 PM
Am I misunderstanding? I thought the speed limit sign was in Washington.
My point was that it seemed Oregon jumped the gun and posted their 55 sign in Washington where they have no right to post it. Could be fixed with REDUCED SPEED AHEAD banner with the sign.
Quote from: jakeroot on January 14, 2020, 04:10:09 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on January 14, 2020, 11:59:01 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2020, 04:37:15 PM
The Revised Code of Washington (State) has a specific section for variable limits:
Quote from: RCW 46.61.415
(5) Any altered limit established as hereinbefore authorized shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected. Such maximum speed limit may be declared to be effective at all times or at such times as are indicated upon such signs; and differing limits may be established for different times of day, different types of vehicles, varying weather conditions, and other factors bearing on safe speeds, which shall be effective when posted upon appropriate fixed or variable signs.
I can think of several stretches of freeway in Washington with completely digital speed limit signs (I-90, I-5, WA-520), so they would have to be enforceable. Not that it would matter, since the default limit for state highways is the default displayed limit.
That is one state out of 50.
Well sure. I guess my point is that, in states where variable limits are either common or even the norm in some areas, it's likely that they are codified to be legal. In states where maybe there's only one stretch, perhaps as a study, that may not necessarily be the case. Washington State has quite a lot of lane-miles of variable limit-controlled freeways, so it makes sense that they would be legally enforceable.
In NJ, which probably had the granddaddy of all variable speed limits on the NJ Tpk, there is absolutely no reference to variable speed limits within the state statutes.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 16, 2020, 11:23:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 14, 2020, 04:10:09 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on January 14, 2020, 11:59:01 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2020, 04:37:15 PM
The Revised Code of Washington (State) has a specific section for variable limits:
Quote from: RCW 46.61.415
(5) Any altered limit established as hereinbefore authorized shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected. Such maximum speed limit may be declared to be effective at all times or at such times as are indicated upon such signs; and differing limits may be established for different times of day, different types of vehicles, varying weather conditions, and other factors bearing on safe speeds, which shall be effective when posted upon appropriate fixed or variable signs.
I can think of several stretches of freeway in Washington with completely digital speed limit signs (I-90, I-5, WA-520), so they would have to be enforceable. Not that it would matter, since the default limit for state highways is the default displayed limit.
That is one state out of 50.
Well sure. I guess my point is that, in states where variable limits are either common or even the norm in some areas, it's likely that they are codified to be legal. In states where maybe there's only one stretch, perhaps as a study, that may not necessarily be the case. Washington State has quite a lot of lane-miles of variable limit-controlled freeways, so it makes sense that they would be legally enforceable.
In NJ, which probably had the granddaddy of all variable speed limits on the NJ Tpk, there is absolutely no reference to variable speed limits within the state statutes.
Doubt they're enforceable then. Probably why the Turnpike has so much speeding? :-D
Quote from: jakeroot on January 17, 2020, 01:52:27 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 16, 2020, 11:23:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 14, 2020, 04:10:09 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on January 14, 2020, 11:59:01 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 12, 2020, 04:37:15 PM
The Revised Code of Washington (State) has a specific section for variable limits:
Quote from: RCW 46.61.415
(5) Any altered limit established as hereinbefore authorized shall be effective when appropriate signs giving notice thereof are erected. Such maximum speed limit may be declared to be effective at all times or at such times as are indicated upon such signs; and differing limits may be established for different times of day, different types of vehicles, varying weather conditions, and other factors bearing on safe speeds, which shall be effective when posted upon appropriate fixed or variable signs.
I can think of several stretches of freeway in Washington with completely digital speed limit signs (I-90, I-5, WA-520), so they would have to be enforceable. Not that it would matter, since the default limit for state highways is the default displayed limit.
That is one state out of 50.
Well sure. I guess my point is that, in states where variable limits are either common or even the norm in some areas, it's likely that they are codified to be legal. In states where maybe there's only one stretch, perhaps as a study, that may not necessarily be the case. Washington State has quite a lot of lane-miles of variable limit-controlled freeways, so it makes sense that they would be legally enforceable.
In NJ, which probably had the granddaddy of all variable speed limits on the NJ Tpk, there is absolutely no reference to variable speed limits within the state statutes.
Doubt they're enforceable then. Probably why the Turnpike has so much speeding? :-D
For as congested as this state can be, it is amazing how fast our highways (and our State Police) permit speeds! Of course, I've yet to hear anyone escape on a variable speed limit sign technicality.
And for what it's worth, watch those technicalities. The fastest speed limit permitted in the state is 65 mph. It's coded into state law that there shall be a list of roads which are to be signed for 65 mph. And if someone were to still want to fight it, saying the speed limit wasn't signed properly, then they can go back to the main state speed statute, which states any unsigned roadway is to be 50 mph!!
So, for the one person that wants to somehow claim the numeral should be black on white rather than white on black, I think they'll be better off taking the 85 in a 65 ticket rather than an 85 in a 50!
Quote from: jakeroot on January 16, 2020, 08:42:18 PM
OR has to have posted the 55 limit, but the sign itself is within the WA border
Easy way to find out. Take a stroll and look at the sticker.
:ded:
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 11, 2020, 12:41:44 PM
Technically not unenforceable, but I'm thinking of the "Speed Limit 65" sign on northbound I-75 past OH-184 in Toledo, about a half mile before the Michigan state line where the speed limit increases to 70. Nobody's going 60 or 65 at that point.
Excellent example, however, I was once followed by Washington Township police (the agency of law enforcement in that particular stretch), pulled over and ticketed about a quarter-mile into Michigan. I was young and oh-so-dumb back in those days, and suggested that maybe the officer was outside of his jurisdiction, and that's when the handcuffs went on. :-o
NJ's variable speed limit signs are actual complaint signs with a display element for the digits. IMO, those are enforceable because they're on official signs. I have to guess that the statues there say that the speed limit is whatever the official signs say it is.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on January 17, 2020, 03:10:05 PM
NJ's variable speed limit signs are actual complaint signs with a display element for the digits. IMO, those are enforceable because they're on official signs. I have to guess that the statues there say that the speed limit is whatever the official signs say it is.
I know there have been complaints about statues, but I don't think any of them are in New Jersey.
Quote from: kphoger on January 17, 2020, 01:02:26 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 16, 2020, 08:42:18 PM
OR has to have posted the 55 limit, but the sign itself is within the WA border
Easy way to find out. Take a stroll and look at the sticker.
:ded:
True. I do know that the big green sign (BGS) support structures in either direction are both ODOT-spec, including the one for WA-14 almost directly opposite along the northbound bridge. But, the sign itself is
WSDOT-spec going northbound (https://goo.gl/maps/brGJgzW7JF1LvSMZ7),
ODOT-spec southbound (https://goo.gl/maps/BBiRAMwXTohV8RXC9). It's possible that all of the signage along the bridge is maintained by ODOT, and the WSDOT-style exit sign for the WA-14 exit is simply an ODOT sign manufactured to WSDOT specs. If this were the case, the 55 limit would likely have been posted by ODOT as well (all else being equal).
Now, with that said, Oregon for many years installed their "SPEED" signs, and this sign clearly uses the word "LIMIT", like many of the newer ODOT speed limit signs. But it's entirely possible that ODOT installed a WSDOT-spec speed limit sign as well, since it was within WA's border, and I don't believe it would be enforceable
within WA's border without the word "LIMIT" due to differences in WA/OR law (although if WSP didn't patrol the bridge, who really gives a shit?). Now, if this were actually the case, it would have been plenty easy to install a "SPEED 55" sign right at the OR border just down the freeway a bit.
I am obviously making this really complicated, but I find it rather interesting!
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 17, 2020, 06:13:53 AM
And for what it's worth, watch those technicalities. The fastest speed limit permitted in the state is 65 mph. It's coded into state law that there shall be a list of roads which are to be signed for 65 mph. And if someone were to still want to fight it, saying the speed limit wasn't signed properly, then they can go back to the main state speed statute, which states any unsigned roadway is to be 50 mph!!
It's interesting that you'd bring that up. I assume that the Turnpike isn't coded as 65 if the road uses variable limits? Otherwise they definitely wouldn't be enforceable (the sign could read 55, but that would conflict with the statute indicating 65). Sure, the maximum limit would always be 65 under NJ law, but if the Turnpike is legally 65, the variable limits would clearly conflict with the statute.
Quote from: 1 on January 17, 2020, 03:24:02 PM
I know there have been complaints about statues
I didn't realize that.
Quote from: renegade on January 17, 2020, 01:17:00 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on January 11, 2020, 12:41:44 PM
Technically not unenforceable, but I'm thinking of the "Speed Limit 65" sign on northbound I-75 past OH-184 in Toledo, about a half mile before the Michigan state line where the speed limit increases to 70. Nobody's going 60 or 65 at that point.
Excellent example, however, I was once followed by Washington Township police (the agency of law enforcement in that particular stretch), pulled over and ticketed about a quarter-mile into Michigan. I was young and oh-so-dumb back in those days, and suggested that maybe the officer was outside of his jurisdiction, and that's when the handcuffs went on. :-o
I recall a
Dukes of Hazzard episode where the Osage County sheriff arrested Rosco for "impersonating an officer of the law" when he pursued the Dukes across the county line. I believe Boss Hogg wound up in jail as well, though I don't remember what for.