In Waverley, NY/PA, the Southern Tear Expressway the interstate crosses the state line, but does not seem to be signed, as if NY still maintains the interstate in the quarter-mile or so in PA. Anyone know why this situation arose? Is there any other similar situation?
Terrain forced the freeway way south and it was either go through PA or bulldoze Waverly. NY does indeed maintain the portion through PA. I-684 and NY 120A are similar, though it's worth noting that CT does own (but doesn't maintain) their part of I-684.
There used to be a small sign noting the boundary, I thought.
Pretty sure by "does not seem to be signed" he was referring to regular state welcome signs and/or indications that maintenance switched to PennDOT, not the small "State Border" signs that are indistinguishable from the ones used to mark hamlet areas.
I thought that it is just a small dip with no direct connection to PA, but map shows entire exit 60 interchange to be in PA.
Anyway, looks like this is all the signage out there:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0002411,-76.5540322,3a,75y,165.38h,69.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sriHb2CgSRv1lWB20qKkJTg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9998668,-76.5318273,3a,86.8y,166.13h,68.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUDYeIKPHPF2AYrb988-MPQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I do believe I-24 does the same thing in Wildwood, GA...no big welcome signs, but GA maintains their portion, and even resets the mile markers...though the two exits in that portion are numbered as if the entire route was in TN.
Minnesota 23 crosses thru Wisconsin for about 1/2 mile.
If I read things correctly, it appears the I-86 designation currently ends at the state line between exit 60 and 61, which means I-86 has two segments in PA connected by the main long segment in NY.
Separately, there is another I-86 NY segment from I-81 to NY 79.
On the whole roads entering another state topic, Travel Mapping has PA 44 entering NY. I don't necessarily disagree, but is that official?
Quote from: DJ Particle on February 06, 2020, 01:53:42 AM
I do believe I-24 does the same thing in Wildwood, GA...no big welcome signs, but GA maintains their portion, and even resets the mile markers...though the two exits in that portion are numbered as if the entire route was in TN.
There are welcome signs. Similar, but given that it's very obviously maintained by GA and crossing the state line is quite clear, I'm not sure it meets the "but not really?" part of this thread.
Quote from: sbeaver44 on February 06, 2020, 12:06:03 PM
On the whole roads entering another state topic, Travel Mapping has PA 44 entering NY. I don't necessarily disagree, but is that official?
I don't think so - it's inventoried as a town road, but there are no TO banners (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9995156,-78.2698631,3a,25.2y,94.81h,91.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sm9lVeDmPteydMnfEPw7prQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), so TM considered it effectively part of PA 44 to NY 417.
Quote from: DJ Particle on February 06, 2020, 01:53:42 AM
I do believe I-24 does the same thing in Wildwood, GA...no big welcome signs, but GA maintains their portion, and even resets the mile markers...though the two exits in that portion are numbered as if the entire route was in TN.
I-24 definitely does have full size GA welcome signs:
https://goo.gl/maps/1wNkqdAPgoxanu6t9
Wyoming Route 70 goes through very rural and rugged territory in South Central Wyoming. Due to terrain, it dips into Colorado for 0.9 miles, but Wyoming still maintains the road.
The signage is minimal. A very small sign says either "Leaving Wyoming" or "Entering Wyoming", and there is no mention at all of Colorado.
MN-23 says hi to Wisconsin due to terrain.
Re: PA 44, the intersection is so close to the state line that it's probably just maintained as part of the intersection. That's a case of Travel Mapping being overly autistic.
Quote from: cl94 on February 06, 2020, 10:26:46 PM
Re: PA 44, the intersection is so close to the state line that it's probably just maintained as part of the intersection. That's a case of Travel Mapping being overly autistic.
Tastelessness of using the word "autistic" in that context aside, remember that TM is a tool for
logging travels. Is anyone really going to travel the portion of that road in New York and stop without crossing into Pennsylvania? If not, by calling that stretch of road something besides PA 44, you'd be making users list two entries in their .list file instead of just one, for no benefit.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on February 06, 2020, 01:06:32 PMI-24 definitely does have full size GA welcome signs:
https://goo.gl/maps/1wNkqdAPgoxanu6t9
Ah...apparently the eastbound one was missing at the time the Street View was taken, and that is what I was going by *heh*
Quote from: sbeaver44 on February 06, 2020, 12:06:03 PMOn the whole roads entering another state topic, Travel Mapping has PA 44 entering NY. I don't necessarily disagree, but is that official?
No, it ends at the state line according to the straight line diagram.
Travel Mapping does not show NH 121A in MA (200 feet), so they're not consistent on this.
Quote from: 1 on February 07, 2020, 07:24:27 AM
Travel Mapping does not show NH 121A in MA (200 feet), so they're not consistent on this.
But Apple Maps once
did show MA 31 erroneously crossing into CT for a couple hundred feet and ending at CT 197 (I got them to correct it). There is a CT style 31 shield with an arrow pointing to Dresser Hill Rd on CT 197. Meanwhile, Google Maps continues to display the real CT 31 shield as a county route along and north of US 44. And the Windows maps program still shows RI 2 shields along US 1 in Westerly to make you think that CT 2 and RI 2 are one continuous route.
ME 113 and 113B both cross into NH, NH 153 crosses into ME, and MA 114A has both ends in RI.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 06, 2020, 10:58:11 PMIf not, by calling that stretch of road something besides PA 44, you'd be making users list two entries in their .list file instead of just one, for no benefit.
Except by TM recognizing PA 44 entering NY, you have to list two entries in your file anyway: NY PA44 and PA PA44. Just listing PA PA44 would not show you having clinched that 0.04 miles in NY.
Personally I would just delete the segment between the state line and NY 417 from TM. NY doesn't number it, and I'm assuming PA inventories it as ending at the state line.
If it matters, someone should discuss on their (TM's), forum.
Quote from: Rothman on February 07, 2020, 12:44:37 PM
If it matters, someone should discuss on their (TM's), forum.
A few of us have tried. Those in charge insist on inventorying that 200 feet as "PA 44".
Quote from: cl94 on February 07, 2020, 12:46:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 07, 2020, 12:44:37 PM
If it matters, someone should discuss on their (TM's), forum.
A few of us have tried. Those in charge insist on inventorying that 200 feet as "PA 44".
Doesn't seem right.
For reference, the original PA 44 discussion on TM: http://forum.travelmapping.net/index.php?topic=2633.0
Quote from: 1 on February 07, 2020, 07:24:27 AM
Travel Mapping does not show NH 121A in MA (200 feet), so they're not consistent on this.
I'm guessing that's a case of "nobody has noticed yet". Also uses a MA shield on there, which makes it interesting. Somebody should make a thread for this on the TM forums.
Quote from: Rothman on February 07, 2020, 12:52:15 PM
Quote from: cl94 on February 07, 2020, 12:46:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 07, 2020, 12:44:37 PM
If it matters, someone should discuss on their (TM's), forum.
A few of us have tried. Those in charge insist on inventorying that 200 feet as "PA 44".
Doesn't seem right.
Welcome to the world of Travel Mapping. I've generally stopped arguing about stuff on there because they take "everything must connect" to a point of absurdity.
Quote from: cl94 on February 07, 2020, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 07, 2020, 12:52:15 PM
Quote from: cl94 on February 07, 2020, 12:46:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 07, 2020, 12:44:37 PM
If it matters, someone should discuss on their (TM's), forum.
A few of us have tried. Those in charge insist on inventorying that 200 feet as "PA 44".
Doesn't seem right.
Welcome to the world of Travel Mapping. I've generally stopped arguing about stuff on there because they take "everything must connect" to a point of absurdity.
I dunno. I've had a discussion or two go my way on there.
Quote from: cl94 on February 07, 2020, 12:57:09 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 07, 2020, 12:52:15 PM
Quote from: cl94 on February 07, 2020, 12:46:18 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 07, 2020, 12:44:37 PM
If it matters, someone should discuss on their (TM's), forum.
A few of us have tried. Those in charge insist on inventorying that 200 feet as "PA 44".
Doesn't seem right.
Welcome to the world of Travel Mapping. I've generally stopped arguing about stuff on there because they take "everything must connect" to a point of absurdity.
I think it's part the way TM prioritizes signage in the field (except for the interstates) to the degree it does, part the fact that TM maps let you zoom WAY in (instead of the high-level view CHM maps had), and part the fact that it's also used for computer science graph labs.
Quote from: cl94 on February 07, 2020, 12:46:18 PM
A few of us have tried. Those in charge insist on inventorying that 200 feet as "PA 44".
If you call your single post in the TM thread "trying", you didn't do a very good job. You made no comment one way or the other about whether to include it or not and focused mainly on the maintenance and responsibility of the short section. The only one who made an argument against including it was Duke87 and that was just one post.
Quote from: vdeane on February 07, 2020, 12:53:24 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 07, 2020, 07:24:27 AM
Travel Mapping does not show NH 121A in MA (200 feet), so they're not consistent on this.
I'm guessing that's a case of "nobody has noticed yet". Also uses a MA shield on there, which makes it interesting. Somebody should make a thread for this on the TM forums.
A case of "nobody noticed yet". That said, it's worth noting that southbound 121A, as signed, does not enter Mass but instead ends at the first signal north of the state line.
Quote from: vdeane on February 07, 2020, 01:06:45 PM
Quote from: cl94 on February 07, 2020, 12:57:09 PM
Welcome to the world of Travel Mapping. I've generally stopped arguing about stuff on there because they take "everything must connect" to a point of absurdity.
I think it's part the way TM prioritizes signage in the field (except for the interstates) to the degree it does, part the fact that TM maps let you zoom WAY in (instead of the high-level view CHM maps had), and part the fact that it's also used for computer science graph labs.
The latter moreso. The class Jim teaches that uses the TM data has a high emphasis on connectivity.
I guess I didn't. My apologies to all involved. I have had so many conversations on this topic in multiple places, so they all blend together. This may have been part of an offline conversation with a few people.
Quote from: froggie on February 07, 2020, 02:27:26 PM
A case of "nobody noticed yet". That said, it's worth noting that southbound 121A, as signed, does not enter Mass but instead ends at the first signal north of the state line.
Looking around in street view, perhaps the end point should be moved there, since that's where the sign from SB NH 125 to NB NH 121A is too. The sign in MA could then be considered erroneous.
Quote from: froggie on February 07, 2020, 02:27:26 PM
Quote from: cl94 on February 07, 2020, 12:46:18 PM
A few of us have tried. Those in charge insist on inventorying that 200 feet as "PA 44".
If you call your single post in the TM thread "trying", you didn't do a very good job. You made no comment one way or the other about whether to include it or not and focused mainly on the maintenance and responsibility of the short section. The only one who made an argument against including it was Duke87 and that was just one post.
Quote from: vdeane on February 07, 2020, 12:53:24 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 07, 2020, 07:24:27 AM
Travel Mapping does not show NH 121A in MA (200 feet), so they're not consistent on this.
I'm guessing that's a case of "nobody has noticed yet". Also uses a MA shield on there, which makes it interesting. Somebody should make a thread for this on the TM forums.
A case of "nobody noticed yet". That said, it's worth noting that southbound 121A, as signed, does not enter Mass but instead ends at the first signal north of the state line.
Quote from: vdeane on February 07, 2020, 01:06:45 PM
Quote from: cl94 on February 07, 2020, 12:57:09 PM
Welcome to the world of Travel Mapping. I've generally stopped arguing about stuff on there because they take "everything must connect" to a point of absurdity.
I think it's part the way TM prioritizes signage in the field (except for the interstates) to the degree it does, part the fact that TM maps let you zoom WAY in (instead of the high-level view CHM maps had), and part the fact that it's also used for computer science graph labs.
The latter moreso. The class Jim teaches that uses the TM data has a high emphasis on connectivity.
Placing connectivity above accuracy given the stated intention of the website seems off to me.
^ I may have misspoke. I don't have a 100% understanding of what Jim teaches in his class...just that it has a lot to do with alogrithms, data, and networks. I assumed the latter is where the connectivity of the network comes into play.
Jim's said in the TM forums that he's not sure the "PA NY 44" entry needs to be there. I brought it up initially because of what I observed in the field a couple summers ago and we had precedent elsewhere (was thinking specifically of VT 105 in NH).
My (and others') use of TM's data in classes (http://courses.teresco.org/metal/) does like to have things connected up (for example, we implement Dijkstra's Algorithm for single-source shortest paths to calculate driving directions and the algorithm can't make a turn if it can't tell that two roads actually intersect).
That said, I make no argument that roads that aren't actually state highways (or part of whatever system) should be included to introduce graph connections. My emphasis on graph connections is to make sure that points line up on intersecting routes so they are recognized by the algorithms as a single point and become a single graph vertex. That practice only benefits TM users by also introducing connecting links in the Highway Browser. The only people it annoys are the highway data managers who need to make sure such points do line up. I'm grateful for all the work so many of them have done to improve the data.
Relevant to the topic here about I-86 crossing briefly into PA, we have been discussing and I hope will implement a mechanism where users can give single .list entries that span regions. So if you have I-90 from somewhere in Montana to somewhere in New York, you could specify that in a single line rather than needing lines for MT,SD,MN,WI,IL,IN,OH,PA, and NY.
I'd like to think TM is welcoming of user feedback and I know many features arose from user requests. I hope everyone interested in the project will let us know what you think and how we can improve. Only then can we either make such improvements or at least explain our reasoning for why things are done as they are done. Please continue to do so on the TM Forum (http://forum.travelmapping.net/) so the right people see it. You can see by looking at the Issues in our GitHub repositories (https://github.com/TravelMapping) that there is quite a backlog of bugs and feature requests, but that's the best way to make sure they're not forgotten and that they can be picked up and worked on when someone finds time to do so.