I-83 ends at Surface streets, and i was wondering was it supposed to end at I-95 or I-70, or was I-70 and I-83 supposed to end at the same location? i dont see where I-83 couldn't be built to I-95
Quote from: AcE_Wolf_287 on March 22, 2020, 02:28:59 PM
I-83 ends at Surface streets, and i was wondering was it supposed to end at I-95 or I-70, or was I-70 and I-83 supposed to end at the same location? i dont see where I-83 couldn't be built to I-95
It was supposed to turn east, and through the Canton area of Baltimore City and tie in to I-95 north of the Fort McHenry Tunnel toll plaza.
The remnants of the ramps that were partially built on I-95 could still be seen the last time I checked.
I would like to see Baltimore build a freeway connection from I-395 by Camden Yards to the southern end of I-83. It's only 1.3 miles from end to end, but a lot of buildings are in the way. (Probably in the fictional highway category, especially with Maryland's need for another Bay Bridge Crossing)
I think the biggest reason why Baltimore has big city traffic problems but in terms of size and population I see it as more of a mid-sized city is because there is no true North to South or East to West freeway that runs through the city.
You could consider I-95 or I-895 to serve a east-west purpose, but that is more of a SW to NE connector.
One good thing I will mention is that the Light Rail line does run north to south.
Quote from: RoadPelican on March 22, 2020, 07:51:43 PM
I would like to see Baltimore build a freeway connection from I-395 by Camden Yards to the southern end of I-83. It's only 1.3 miles from end to end, but a lot of buildings are in the way. (Probably in the fictional highway category, especially with Maryland's need for another Bay Bridge Crossing)
I think the biggest reason why Baltimore has big city traffic problems but in terms of size and population I see it as more of a mid-sized city is because there is no true North to South or East to West freeway that runs through the city.
You could consider I-95 or I-895 to serve a east-west purpose, but that is more of a SW to NE connector.
One good thing I will mention is that the Light Rail line does run north to south.
Effectively, the combination of Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard, North Howard Street and North Avenue serve (imperfectly) as the connection between I-395 and I-83. Here (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/39.269922,-76.622783/39.3117856,-76.6255126/@39.2881238,-76.6545663,13z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m5!3m4!1m2!1d-76.6208629!2d39.3055191!3s0x89c804be5edb38ed:0x84ab5938af568a03!1m0!3e0) is one way on Google Maps
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 22, 2020, 08:32:26 PM
Effectively, the combination of Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard, North Howard Street and North Avenue serve (imperfectly) as the connection between I-395 and I-83. Here (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/39.269922,-76.622783/39.3117856,-76.6255126/@39.2881238,-76.6545663,13z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m5!3m4!1m2!1d-76.6208629!2d39.3055191!3s0x89c804be5edb38ed:0x84ab5938af568a03!1m0!3e0) is one way on Google Maps
When I-95 was moved from the CBD in the early 1960s, that was the end of any future freeway penetrating the CBD and/or crossing the Inner Harbor.
Building that connection would pass thru the southern CBD and the edge of the Inner Harbor.
Quote from: RoadPelican on March 22, 2020, 07:51:43 PM
I would like to see Baltimore build a freeway connection from I-395 by Camden Yards to the southern end of I-83. It's only 1.3 miles from end to end, but a lot of buildings are in the way. (Probably in the fictional highway category, especially with Maryland's need for another Bay Bridge Crossing)
I think the biggest reason why Baltimore has big city traffic problems but in terms of size and population I see it as more of a mid-sized city is because there is no true North to South or East to West freeway that runs through the city.
You could consider I-95 or I-895 to serve a east-west purpose, but that is more of a SW to NE connector.
One good thing I will mention is that the Light Rail line does run north to south.
you also got to take in consideration of the Pointless I-97 south of Baltimore,
Quote from: RoadPelican on March 22, 2020, 07:51:43 PM
I would like to see Baltimore build a freeway connection from I-395 by Camden Yards to the southern end of I-83. It's only 1.3 miles from end to end, but a lot of buildings are in the way. (Probably in the fictional highway category, especially with Maryland's need for another Bay Bridge Crossing)
I think the biggest reason why Baltimore has big city traffic problems but in terms of size and population I see it as more of a mid-sized city is because there is no true North to South or East to West freeway that runs through the city.
You could consider I-95 or I-895 to serve a east-west purpose, but that is more of a SW to NE connector.
One good thing I will mention is that the Light Rail line does run north to south.
and also by where I-70 is, wasn't that also the location of where I-70 was supposed to end at ?
Quote from: AcE_Wolf_287 on March 22, 2020, 09:32:33 PM
Quote from: RoadPelican on March 22, 2020, 07:51:43 PM
I would like to see Baltimore build a freeway connection from I-395 by Camden Yards to the southern end of I-83. It's only 1.3 miles from end to end, but a lot of buildings are in the way. (Probably in the fictional highway category, especially with Maryland's need for another Bay Bridge Crossing)
I think the biggest reason why Baltimore has big city traffic problems but in terms of size and population I see it as more of a mid-sized city is because there is no true North to South or East to West freeway that runs through the city.
You could consider I-95 or I-895 to serve a east-west purpose, but that is more of a SW to NE connector.
One good thing I will mention is that the Light Rail line does run north to south.
you also got to take in consideration of the Pointless I-97 south of Baltimore,
I'm not sure what the existence of I-97 has to do with the routing of I-83 in Baltimore city. And while you (and others) may disagree with its number, the road is hardly "pointless" as it provides a high speed connection between Baltimore and Annapolis.
Realize, Baltimore is an old city (as far as North America goes) and really doesn't have a whole lots of room for new freeway corridors (without plowing through existing neighborhoods).
Quote from: AcE_Wolf_287 on March 22, 2020, 09:32:33 PM
you also got to take in consideration of the Pointless I-97 south of Baltimore,
Certainly not "pointless".
Links the state's capitol with the largest city in the state, and serves a large amount of traffic volumes daily, the route bypassed an old, outdated 4-lane arterial that ran through developed areas with slower speed limits, signal infested, etc.
A very valuable construction project in the 1980s, along with widening and extending the US-50 / I-595 freeway east and west of Annapolis.
The number is odd, but asides that, I-97 is -not- "pointless".
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 22, 2020, 09:55:25 PM
Quote from: AcE_Wolf_287 on March 22, 2020, 09:32:33 PM
you also got to take in consideration of the Pointless I-97 south of Baltimore,
Certainly not "pointless".
Links the state's capitol with the largest city in the state, and serves a large amount of traffic volumes daily, the route bypassed an old, outdated 4-lane arterial that ran through developed areas with slower speed limits, signal infested, etc.
Plus Baltimore has one the nation's largest ports.
Ace Wolf just objects to the number, thinks that it should be something like I-995, as a supplementary route to the I-95 system.
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 22, 2020, 09:55:25 PM
Quote from: AcE_Wolf_287 on March 22, 2020, 09:32:33 PM
you also got to take in consideration of the Pointless I-97 south of Baltimore,
Certainly not "pointless".
Links the state's capitol with the largest city in the state, and serves a large amount of traffic volumes daily, the route bypassed an old, outdated 4-lane arterial that ran through developed areas with slower speed limits, signal infested, etc.
A very valuable construction project in the 1980s, along with widening and extending the US-50 / I-595 freeway east and west of Annapolis.
The number is odd, but asides that, I-97 is -not- "pointless".
pointless as in the numbering, its a 17 mile 2di interstate, not as in like there's no need, I believe in the 1950s and 60s I-95 had available 3di spur routes that could've been numbered instead of "i-97"
Quote from: AcE_Wolf_287 on March 22, 2020, 10:27:50 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 22, 2020, 09:55:25 PM
Quote from: AcE_Wolf_287 on March 22, 2020, 09:32:33 PM
you also got to take in consideration of the Pointless I-97 south of Baltimore,
Certainly not "pointless".
Links the state's capitol with the largest city in the state, and serves a large amount of traffic volumes daily, the route bypassed an old, outdated 4-lane arterial that ran through developed areas with slower speed limits, signal infested, etc.
A very valuable construction project in the 1980s, along with widening and extending the US-50 / I-595 freeway east and west of Annapolis.
The number is odd, but asides that, I-97 is -not- "pointless".
pointless as in the numbering, its a 17 mile 2di interstate, not as in like there's no need, I believe in the 1950s and 60s I-95 had available 3di spur routes that could've been numbered instead of "i-97"
A freeway along the MD-2 corridor between the two cities was proposed in 1956, about half of which was built, though it wasn't until 1979 that I-97's current location and interstate designation was approved. It was constructed throughout the late 1980s and early 1990s. It was not completed until 1997.
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 22, 2020, 10:32:45 PM
Quote from: AcE_Wolf_287 on March 22, 2020, 10:27:50 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 22, 2020, 09:55:25 PM
Quote from: AcE_Wolf_287 on March 22, 2020, 09:32:33 PM
you also got to take in consideration of the Pointless I-97 south of Baltimore,
Certainly not "pointless".
Links the state's capitol with the largest city in the state, and serves a large amount of traffic volumes daily, the route bypassed an old, outdated 4-lane arterial that ran through developed areas with slower speed limits, signal infested, etc.
A very valuable construction project in the 1980s, along with widening and extending the US-50 / I-595 freeway east and west of Annapolis.
The number is odd, but asides that, I-97 is -not- "pointless".
pointless as in the numbering, its a 17 mile 2di interstate, not as in like there's no need, I believe in the 1950s and 60s I-95 had available 3di spur routes that could've been numbered instead of "i-97"
I-97 was proposed in 1979 and constructed throughout the late 1980s and early 1990s. It was not completed until 1997.
ok i thought it was planned with most other highways, but I-795 or I-995 would've worked better (my Opinion)
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 22, 2020, 10:32:45 PM
A freeway along the MD-2 corridor between the two cities was proposed in 1956, about half of which was built, though it wasn't until 1979 that I-97's current location and interstate designation was approved. It was constructed throughout the late 1980s and early 1990s. It was not completed until 1997.
The MD-10 Arundel Freeway was planned to run close to MD-2 between I-695 and US-50.
Interstate 97 was the product of the Baltimore-Annapolis Transportation Study (BATS) which started in 1978. Several corridors were studied. The first concept would have been to extend the MD-10 Arundel Freeway southward to Annapolis. The westerly corridor was chosen because it better served not just the local traffic, but the interregional traffic as well. Also, it provided Interstate funding for the first section of the MD-32 Patuxent Freeway.
Quote from: Beltway on March 22, 2020, 10:42:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on March 22, 2020, 10:32:45 PM
A freeway along the MD-2 corridor between the two cities was proposed in 1956, about half of which was built, though it wasn't until 1979 that I-97's current location and interstate designation was approved. It was constructed throughout the late 1980s and early 1990s. It was not completed until 1997.
The MD-10 Arundel Freeway was planned to run close to MD-2 between I-695 and US-50.
Interstate 97 was the product of the Baltimore-Annapolis Transportation Study (BATS) which started in 1978. Several corridors were studied. The first concept would have been to extend the MD-10 Arundel Freeway southward to Annapolis. The westerly corridor was chosen because it better served not just the local traffic, but the interregional traffic as well. Also, it provided Interstate funding for the first section of the MD-32 Patuxent Freeway.
wasn't MD 32 supposed to be I-197 or I-297??
Quote from: AcE_Wolf_287 on March 22, 2020, 10:43:40 PM
wasn't MD 32 supposed to be I-197 or I-297??
MD-3 corridor between US-50 and MD-32 -- I-297.
Quote from: Beltway on March 22, 2020, 11:08:00 PM
Quote from: AcE_Wolf_287 on March 22, 2020, 10:43:40 PM
wasn't MD 32 supposed to be I-197 or I-297??
MD-3 corridor between US-50 and MD-32 -- I-297.
ok what about I-197?
Quote from: Beltway on March 22, 2020, 11:08:00 PM
Quote from: AcE_Wolf_287 on March 22, 2020, 10:43:40 PM
wasn't MD 32 supposed to be I-197 or I-297??
MD-3 corridor between US-50 and MD-32 -- I-297.
Wasn't that segment abandoned decades ago?
Quote from: Beltway on March 22, 2020, 10:42:29 PM
The MD-10 Arundel Freeway was planned to run close to MD-2 between I-695 and US-50.
While Anne Arundel County does not have near as much anti-highway NIMBY tradition as some other Maryland jurisdictions, there was opposition to the project to extend MD-10 south along a route parallel to MD-2 in Severna Park and in Arnold. That opposition helped to bring about what is now known as I-97, which was routed through a largely rural area between U.S. 50/U.S. 301 and the interchange at MD-32 and MD-3.
I-97 carries plenty of traffic (and needs to be widened to six lanes between U.S. 50/U.S. 301 and MD-3), and has probably diverted some traffic away from MD-2 north of U.S. 50/301.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 23, 2020, 06:40:24 PM
Quote from: Beltway on March 22, 2020, 10:42:29 PM
The MD-10 Arundel Freeway was planned to run close to MD-2 between I-695 and US-50.
While Anne Arundel County does not have near as much anti-highway NIMBY tradition as some other Maryland jurisdictions, there was opposition to the project to extend MD-10 south along a route parallel to MD-2 in Severna Park and in Arnold. That opposition helped to bring about what is now known as I-97, which was routed through a largely rural area between U.S. 50/U.S. 301 and the interchange at MD-32 and MD-3.
There would be considerable impacts to wetlands and creeks and waterfront houses on the unbuilt southern half.
Map: https://tinyurl.com/uu8jzg5
The 1966 Maryland Official Highway Map showed the path of the Arundel Freeway, the predecessor to Interstate 97, as slated for completion in 1969.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 23, 2020, 06:40:24 PM
I-97 carries plenty of traffic (and needs to be widened to six lanes between U.S. 50/U.S. 301 and MD-3), and has probably diverted some traffic away from MD-2 north of U.S. 50/301.
That southern I-97 section is surprisingly busy, as it does need 6 lane widening, but it does serve as part of the Patuxent Freeway as well as part of I-97.
MD 10 was completed in early 1991. It has done a great job of serving as a local expressway and bypass of Glen Burnie and Pasadena.
MD 32 was completed in the early 1990's as an expressway, except for a small portion thru Fort Meade which was upgraded to an expressway in the early 2000's and a northern extension from Columbia to Clarksville (complete in 1994).
MD 100 was completed from Ellicott City to I-97 in the mid-1990's. The section east from I-97 to Pasadena was built in the 1970's.
MD 32 and MD 100 serve as a good relief valve for regional traffic that would otherwise have to use the Baltimore Beltway. As far as highway networks go, the Baltimore Suburbs are definitely better than the DC Suburbs!
Quote from: RoadPelican on March 24, 2020, 11:43:21 AM
As far as highway networks go, the Baltimore Suburbs are definitely better than the DC Suburbs!
Well, the southern suburbs at least...
https://www.flickr.com/photos/199744333@N06/albums/72177720316974651/
I made an album showing my recent drive along I-83 NB starting from its southern terminus to the split with I-695 north of town. The photos start on Pratt St at President St.
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 22, 2020, 02:35:13 PMQuote from: AcE_Wolf_287 on March 22, 2020, 02:28:59 PMI-83 ends at Surface streets, and i was wondering was it supposed to end at I-95 or I-70, or was I-70 and I-83 supposed to end at the same location? i dont see where I-83 couldn't be built to I-95
It was supposed to turn east, and through the Canton area of Baltimore City and tie in to I-95 north of the Fort McHenry Tunnel toll plaza.
The remnants of the ramps that were partially built on I-95 could still be seen the last time I checked.
Furthermore, the only time that I-70 and I-83 were proposed to meet each other was in a 1960 city freeway plan, when they also ended at I-95 on the southeastern edge of the CBD. The 10-D plan of 1962 ended the I-70/I-83 connection permanently, and the 3-A plan of 1969 spaced them even further apart to where their respective ghost ramps on I-95 are. I-83 sure as hell won't be built to I-95 anytime soon, what with new urban development completely blocking its way.
Quote from: AcE_Wolf_287 on March 22, 2020, 09:33:57 PMand also by where I-70 is, wasn't that also the location of where I-70 was supposed to end at ?
If you're talking about the Park & Ride, I-70 was never going to end there. In fact, before opposition killed it, there was an eastern extension (actually, more southeastern) through Leakin and Gwynns Falls Parks that would lead to I-95 at the ghost ramps southwest of downtown. I-170 was going to meet I-70 near the railroad tracks, but it never got any further than US 1.
Quote from: Henry on May 14, 2024, 10:14:11 PMIf you're talking about the Park & Ride, I-70 was never going to end there. In fact, before opposition killed it, there was an eastern extension (actually, more southeastern) through Leakin and Gwynns Falls Parks that would lead to I-95 at the ghost ramps southwest of downtown. I-170 was going to meet I-70 near the railroad tracks, but it never got any further than US 1.
It's an oddity I love though, a near-cross-country highway ending in a parking lot.
Quote from: epzik8 on May 19, 2024, 09:04:11 AMQuote from: Henry on May 14, 2024, 10:14:11 PMIf you're talking about the Park & Ride, I-70 was never going to end there. In fact, before opposition killed it, there was an eastern extension (actually, more southeastern) through Leakin and Gwynns Falls Parks that would lead to I-95 at the ghost ramps southwest of downtown. I-170 was going to meet I-70 near the railroad tracks, but it never got any further than US 1.
It's an oddity I love though, a near-cross-country highway ending in a parking lot.
And for more on the different routings for I-70 into Baltimore, I recommend Earl Swift's
The Big Roads.
There have been plans to demolish the southernmost portion of the Jones Falls Expressway, as stated in this 2009 Baltimore Sun article: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2009-05-17/business/0905160106_1_elevated-expressway-jones-falls-expressway-east-side. Obviously, nothing has become of those proposals. Also, in the early 90s, there was a proposal to extend Interstate 83 along the US 29 corridor to Greensboro, NC. However, that was as likely to be constructed as any proposal to extend 83 north of Harrisburg.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on May 25, 2024, 01:41:08 PMThere have been plans to demolish the southernmost portion of the Jones Falls Expressway, as stated in this 2009 Baltimore Sun article: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2009-05-17/business/0905160106_1_elevated-expressway-jones-falls-expressway-east-side. Obviously, nothing has become of those proposals. Also, in the early 90s, there was a proposal to extend Interstate 83 along the US 29 corridor to Greensboro, NC. However, that was as likely to be constructed as any proposal to extend 83 north of Harrisburg.
The Greensboro extension sounds so unhinged.
The only location I saw that proposed an I-83 extension south to North Carolina was a roadgeek website. There was never anything official or even semi-official suggested in Virginia.
If there WAS such a proposal, it would be nice for Ghostbuster to provide a source.
My source was Interstate 83's Wikipedia webpage. The 22nd footnote referenced an article from Greensboro's News and Record newspaper from June 8th, 1991 titled "New Interstates Likely Impossible Dream": https://greensboro.com/new-interstates-likely-impossible-dream/article_00684f87-9e3b-52bb-aeb2-2188020c415a.html. That's probably the only story on the subject, save for the roadgeek's website: http://www.freehomepage.com/i-83ext/interstate83.html.
Reding that Greensboro article, looks like it was mainly local Chambers of Commerce (primarily Lynchburg) that were pushing the I-83 extension and nobody actually involved in transportation planning.
Quote from: froggie on May 26, 2024, 01:56:10 PMReding that Greensboro article, looks like it was mainly local Chambers of Commerce (primarily Lynchburg) that were pushing the I-83 extension and nobody actually involved in transportation planning.
I gotta say, though, not such a terrible idea to build a new freeway along US 29 vs. widening I-81 by a full carriageway in each direction through VA.
Quote from: Alps on May 28, 2024, 07:38:40 PMQuote from: froggie on May 26, 2024, 01:56:10 PMReding that Greensboro article, looks like it was mainly local Chambers of Commerce (primarily Lynchburg) that were pushing the I-83 extension and nobody actually involved in transportation planning.
I gotta say, though, not such a terrible idea to build a new freeway along US 29 vs. widening I-81 by a full carriageway in each direction through VA.
It's not a bad idea on paper, unfortunately Virginia is not as much in the freeway building game as North Carolina, for example, has been.
They can't even get a proper bypass around Charlottesville, let alone the entire highway in the state.
The easiest part in my opinion would be Danville to Amherst (north of Lynchburg). The Danville and Madison Heights bypasses are of decent length and meet interstate standards; Chatham, Gretna, and Altavista have freeway bypasses that could be upgraded relatively easily. The biggest hole would be constructing a new 20 or so mile freeway on new location between Altavista and Madison Heights bypasses, then relatively short upgrades in between the Altavista, Chatham, Gretna, and Danville bypasses.
I use the word "easiest" in the sense that you could have multiple shorter length (5-10 mile) projects that complete piece by piece, as opposed to north of Amherst where you have 30-40+ mile stretches between existing freeway segments where long new location segments, or extensive upgrades would be needed.
Given any major upgrade to US-29 is likely never going to happen unfortunately, I wish VDOT would at least focus on making the entire corridor a free-flowing route. Replacing traffic signals with interchanges, innovative intersections, etc. Additionally, a freeway connection between the Altavista and Madison Heights bypasses, and a bypass around Charlottesville would be needed at minimum for new location portions, plus a freeway connection from Warrenton to I-66. The existing 60 mph free-flowing portions throughout the state in the rural areas would stay mostly the same with potential curve improvements, shoulder widening, etc.
The most glaring error in that article is the labeling of I-26 as "I-23", and it also has I-73 going through Winston-Salem, with no mention of I-74 at all. My guess is that the current routings of I-73 and I-74 within the state came very shortly after it was published, given that it occurred on 6/8/91.