The North / South Routes do a fairly good of going to in a fairly straight line. The east west routes not so much.
While GPS mapping has pretty much made follow a single route (Say US 82 from Tuscaloosa AL to Texarkana TX versus I-20 and I-49) less of an issue, How would we untangle the off the grid crooked road routing.
Quote from: bwana39 on April 03, 2020, 01:23:28 PM
The North / South Routes do a fairly good of going to in a fairly straight line. The east west routes not so much.
While GPS mapping has pretty much made follow a single route (Say US 82 from Tuscaloosa AL to Texarkana TX versus I-20 and I-49) less of an issue, How would we untangle the off the grid crooked road routing.
Not sure you can - there are two many hills, mountains, lakes, rivers, etc. to support a true grid.
Here in Ohio, we have a lot of US highways that run on a diagonal, some are even numbered (22, 42, 62) and some are odd (33, 35). I don't know if it's coincidence or not, but the even-numbered ones run SW to NE and the odd numbered ones from NW to SE.
Then there's 68 which runs almost due N-S in Ohio.
Then there is US 67 and 79 that go diagonal, more or less.
I did a little experiment on US 79. Using Google's measurement tool, I drew a line directly north from the southern terminus to the same latitude as the northern terminus. It goes for 450 miles. Then, I drew another line to the northern terminus from the longitude of the southern terminus. It runs for 600 miles. This means, in general, US 79 slopes a bit more East/West than North/South.
Just because a route is diagonal doesn't mean it's crooked.
I've been designing a fictional country for a D&D game and, being a roadgeek, gave it a route numbering grid similar to the US route system. Being a roadgeek in complete control of route numbering, and having the option to move towns and geography wherever I want, you'd think I'd get a perfect grid, right?
Nope, route numbers still have to bend to reality, even when reality is fictional. I don't have a Route 60 because it would have to go straight over (or under) the country's tallest mountain, a bunch of 'major routes' get the I-45 treatment because there's just nowhere populated for them to go after a certain point, or else run into the problem of too many routes and too few mountain passes. Diagonals are always going to be necessary (more so in this environment, because people may end up having to walk between two cities) but don't play nice with grids.
My point is, if I couldn't get a perfect grid out of my fake country, how the heck could we get one out of the United States, where we can't invent towns and mountain passes out of thin air?
I should point out that the Great Lakes are probably the single biggest obstacle to creating some semblance of a grid in the US.
That and the fact that Florida isn't due south of Maine - not even close - which can be easy to forget.
Quote from: webny99 on April 03, 2020, 09:24:11 PM
I should point out that the Great Lakes are probably the single biggest obstacle to creating some semblance of a grid in the US.
That and the fact that Florida isn't due south of Maine - not even close - which can be easy to forget.
US 1 does a fairly good job. Even US 90 did
Think about US 82 or 84. Perhaps US169.
Looking back to the 1920s and expecting absolute grid perfection is just a pipe dream. Many roads that ended up being essential to the US Route system simply didn't exist, especially out west where terrain was a huge issue. Examples: US 50 had to take a major jog towards Salt Lake City until a more direct route west to Ely, Nevada could be built. US 80 had major unintuitive jogs in Arizona because the primary roads went to mining communities or rail sidings. Even US 66 once had a massive jog to Santa Fe since there wasn't a originally a good direct route to Albuquerque. IMO the grid was about as good as it could be in 1926 and improved greatly in the 1930s as infrastructure developed. US 60 even turned into to be viable as a continental Route after it was punted to a somewhat minor highway because certain states complained about not being on an X0 Route.
In addition there is a section of important highway now that didn't even make the original plan: There was no direct US Route between Phoenix and Indio. However I think that route later should have been US 70 alone, IMO it is too far South for US 60.
Quote from: webny99 on April 03, 2020, 09:24:11 PM
I should point out that the Great Lakes are probably the single biggest obstacle to creating some semblance of a grid in the US.
That and the fact that Florida isn't due south of Maine - not even close - which can be easy to forget.
In fact the state of New York lies entirely to the East of Florida (as pointed in the Geographical oddities thread). The -80° meridian bypasses New York to the West and barely misses Florida to the East.
I don't see anything about a grid in the OP. He seems to be talking about whether a route is a straight line or not. US 84 is a major offender here, but US 42 is not.
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on April 04, 2020, 12:49:35 PM
In addition there is a section of important highway now that didn't even make the original plan: There was no direct US Route between Phoenix and Indio. However I think that route later should have been US 70 alone, IMO it is too far South for US 60.
Quote from: webny99 on April 03, 2020, 09:24:11 PM
I should point out that the Great Lakes are probably the single biggest obstacle to creating some semblance of a grid in the US.
That and the fact that Florida isn't due south of Maine - not even close - which can be easy to forget.
In fact the state of New York lies entirely to the East of Florida (as pointed in the Geographical oddities thread). The -80° meridian bypasses New York to the West and barely misses Florida to the East.
Interestingly Arizona had far more development in the Sonoran Desert on the path that became US 60/70 than California did. The Bradshaw Trail was really the only option East of Coachella Valley in the 1920s and even by that time it was considered beyond primitive. California essentially built the grade of US 60/70 as an entirely brand new highway in the 1920s and 1930s. Considering how hostile and uninhabited the Sonoran Desert is in California it is easy to understand why wagon routes and Auto Trails avoided it.
Quote from: 1 on April 04, 2020, 12:58:56 PM
I don't see anything about a grid in the OP. He seems to be talking about whether a route is a straight line or not.
My understanding is that grid and straight line are basically synonymous in most cases. Also:
Quote from: bwana39 on April 03, 2020, 01:23:28 PM
How would we untangle the off the grid crooked road routing.
US 62 has a pretty ridiculous route. How does a US highway get from Buffalo to El Paso?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 06, 2020, 06:16:51 PM
US 62 has a pretty ridiculous route. How does a US highway get from Buffalo to El Paso?
I don't see the problem, other than the overlap at the west end and the direction reversal at the "east" end. Routes need to exist in all directions, including diagonal.
Quote from: 1 on April 06, 2020, 06:22:51 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 06, 2020, 06:16:51 PM
US 62 has a pretty ridiculous route. How does a US highway get from Buffalo to El Paso?
I don't see the problem, other than the overlap at the west end and the direction reversal at the "east" end. Routes need to exist in all directions, including diagonal.
Yeah I know, just doesn't fit the grid at all.
i'd love to strip them all and start over. I'd save the double digits for 9 diagonal roads.
There is no reason why we need a grid with every route going N-S or E-W. Long distance routes are meant to connect cities, and the cities aren't arranged in a grid.
Quote from: 1 on April 06, 2020, 06:35:34 PM
There is no reason why we need a grid with every route going N-S or E-W. Long distance routes are meant to connect cities, and the cities aren't arranged in a grid.
that's why i'd save 11,22,33,44,55,66,77,88,99 for diagonals like 62 & ...well, 11
Quote from: texaskdog on April 06, 2020, 07:09:08 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 06, 2020, 06:35:34 PM
There is no reason why we need a grid with every route going N-S or E-W. Long distance routes are meant to connect cities, and the cities aren't arranged in a grid.
that's why i'd save 11,22,33,44,55,66,77,88,99 for diagonals like 62 & ...well, 11
And 66?
Quote from: texaskdog on April 06, 2020, 07:09:08 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 06, 2020, 06:35:34 PM
There is no reason why we need a grid with every route going N-S or E-W. Long distance routes are meant to connect cities, and the cities aren't arranged in a grid.
that's why i'd save 11,22,33,44,55,66,77,88,99 for diagonals like 62 & ...well, 11
Just a thought, although this would be creeping into Fictional Highways ...
What about using the "00" numbers for the predominately diagonal roads (rather than 11, 22, 33, etc). You would still have nine of those: 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900.
(Or ten if you would allow a route 00).
I believe this is basically what Florida does with their diagonal state highways.
Quote from: dlsterner on April 06, 2020, 09:36:32 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on April 06, 2020, 07:09:08 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 06, 2020, 06:35:34 PM
There is no reason why we need a grid with every route going N-S or E-W. Long distance routes are meant to connect cities, and the cities aren't arranged in a grid.
that's why i'd save 11,22,33,44,55,66,77,88,99 for diagonals like 62 & ...well, 11
Just a thought, although this would be creeping into Fictional Highways ...
What about using the "00" numbers for the predominately diagonal roads (rather than 11, 22, 33, etc). You would still have nine of those: 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900.
(Or ten if you would allow a route 00).
I believe this is basically what Florida does with their diagonal state highways.
What Florida does is have the three digit numbers begin south of whatever X0 Route they in grid with. Example; almost all of the three digit routes south of Florida 50 are in the 5XX range. The problem is that Florida doesn't have a ton of geographic constraints like large mountain ranges that really interrupt the southward ascending State Road Numbers. The Rockies and Sierra Nevada Mountains alone make plotting cross country highways in a straight line almost impossible.
As to what I was initially talking about is roads that cross each other multiple times, make large dips off of the straight line. I am not talking about a geography line (absolutely straight), I am talking about arcs that increase the mileage by a third or even half again. I am not talking mountain or even marine geography. My key example is US 190 from Bryan to Huntsville TX.
A total regrid like in 1939.
Quote from: bwana39 on April 07, 2020, 11:30:52 AM
My key example is US 290 from Bryan to Huntsville TX.
US 290 enters neither of those cities.
My bad, I corrected it. It was a typo. US-190
Quote from: dlsterner on April 06, 2020, 09:36:32 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on April 06, 2020, 07:09:08 PM
Quote from: 1 on April 06, 2020, 06:35:34 PM
There is no reason why we need a grid with every route going N-S or E-W. Long distance routes are meant to connect cities, and the cities aren't arranged in a grid.
that's why i'd save 11,22,33,44,55,66,77,88,99 for diagonals like 62 & ...well, 11
Just a thought, although this would be creeping into Fictional Highways ...
What about using the "00" numbers for the predominately diagonal roads (rather than 11, 22, 33, etc). You would still have nine of those: 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900.
(Or ten if you would allow a route 00).
I believe this is basically what Florida does with their diagonal state highways.
400 makes me ill
Route 66 should still exist. No questions asked.
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on April 07, 2020, 11:12:21 PM
Route 66 should still exist. No questions asked.
I would like that, especially a section in the middle still numbered as SR 66.
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on April 07, 2020, 11:12:21 PM
Route 66 should still exist. No questions asked.
If routes like 11 still exist why not?
Quote from: texaskdog on April 08, 2020, 08:09:21 AM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on April 07, 2020, 11:12:21 PM
Route 66 should still exist. No questions asked.
If routes like 11 still exist why not?
It kind of does because essentially there are so many people who have refused to let it fade into obscurity like other deleted US Routes.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on April 08, 2020, 09:40:58 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on April 08, 2020, 08:09:21 AM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on April 07, 2020, 11:12:21 PM
Route 66 should still exist. No questions asked.
If routes like 11 still exist why not?
It kind of does because essentially there are so many people who have refused to let it fade into obscurity like other deleted US Routes.
Even though it's closely paralleled by I-81 and others, US 11 is still around because for the vast majority of its route, the original alignment is still intact and used as a through route. In the case of US 66 and others (99, 91, 40, etc.) the interstate was often built right on top of the old road, and even when it wasn't, the old road was often abandoned and the US route moved onto the interstate. Several US routes became almost entirely concurrent with interstates, only leaving them for business loops through towns. Those routes were generally judged to be redundant and were truncated or decommissioned accordingly.
Personally I disagree with this logic, but that's what most western states went with.
The US highway system numbering is broken beyond repair. Some people complain about the Interstates numbers being out of place (example, I-59 being predominately east of I-65). But look at US 79 which for all practical purposes should be way west of where it is now. Then there are oddball numbers (US 400). US 412...being nowhere CLOSE to US 12. US 425 in Arkansas / Louisiana... far away from US 25.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 06, 2020, 06:16:51 PM
US 62 has a pretty ridiculous route. How does a US highway get from Buffalo to El Paso?
plus it has that stupid concurrency with 180, and 180 hops back NW. I'd truncate 62 and change 180 to 80
US 68 is one I don't understand. East-west in Kentucky, then north south in Ohio.
Also not crazy about US 52. It's pretty worthless across Illinois, and could be replaced by US 67 from Clinton, Iowa to St. Paul. Not sure we need parallel US routes from Minneapolis to Fargo (and if we do, one fo them could be an x10), and we certainly don't need a diagonal route across North Dakota. Truncate it at US 41.
And I've never understood US 218. My understanding is that it used to be US 161 south of Cedar Rapids, but when they extended US 151 over its route from Cedar Rapids to Dubuque, they tossed the 161 designation. They should have gotten rid of 218 instead. US 218 should be US 161 over its entire length.
Quote from: texaskdog on April 08, 2020, 05:00:54 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 06, 2020, 06:16:51 PM
US 62 has a pretty ridiculous route. How does a US highway get from Buffalo to El Paso?
plus it has that stupid concurrency with 180, and 180 hops back NW. I'd truncate 62 and change 180 to 80
Demming to the Grand Canyon ought to be US 260.
I don't think anyone actually thinks like we do, they could have put roads in any order. I would have made the longest road #1, 2nd #2 etc. Started doing this but without an online mapping program it took a while and looked like a mess
Quote from: texaskdog on April 06, 2020, 06:33:53 PM
i'd love to strip them all and start over. I'd save the double digits for 9 diagonal roads.
Good luck with that. It's hard to do with just 9. Personally, I don't care so much about keeping a grid as opposed to making routes stay in a general direction. For instance, I have no issue with US 52 whatsoever because it runs as a true diagonal from northwest of Minot ND (Portal ND to be exact) to Charleston SC. It keeps it's general direction line. Same with US 54 and US 62 except for the Buffalo end.
If you want to do something with the diagonal routes that would be unique to them, make them US 1xx and have the xx be in reference to any 2 digit it crosses. For example, US 151 is a true diagonal route and only crosses US 51 once.
For routes that do more paralleling of a parent route, use 2xx, or 3xx.
But as I said, having a true grid is not important to me. Grid guidelines, sure.
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on April 07, 2020, 11:12:21 PM
Route 66 should still exist. No questions asked.
If you renumber US 412 to US 66 you would actually fit the grid and have the US 66 number alive.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on November 24, 2020, 08:14:04 AM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on April 07, 2020, 11:12:21 PM
Route 66 should still exist. No questions asked.
If you renumber US 412 to US 66 you would actually fit the grid and have the US 66 number alive.
Maybe if you renumber your avatar it'll happen