Ok, my friend just told me that a CHP(California Highway Patrol) Officer told her that on a restricted access HOV lane, cars already inside the lane can exit even though there is a double yellow because there is a WHITE line on the right side of lane next to the double yellow lines. But traffic in the main travel lanes cannot enter until the openings...is this true?
You're never supposed to cross a double solid line, yellow or white. The only exception is turning across a double yellow line into a driveway, which is obviously not the case on a freeway.
The way Caltrans marks its buffer-separated HOV lanes, the two sets of double yellow lines create the buffer zone. The buffer is not supposed to be crossed except at designated entry and exit points. The white line on the right side of the HOV lane doesn't make a difference. If that CHP officer really gave this advice, I'd want to question any ticket they gave me.
The two sets of a double lines constitutes a "painted median". You never want to cross those in Southern California.
The only line marker I could see for that to work is a hybrid white solid line and white dashed line, where the dashed line is for traffic in the carpool lane. Otherwise, double solid lines (of any color) are something you can't cross in traffic.
Quote from: AARoads on April 12, 2010, 07:01:09 AM
The two sets of a double lines constitutes a "painted median". You never want to cross those in Southern California.
...or anywhere, for that matter.
"Painted median" is a better description for this situation (buffer area is the technical jargon, however). In essence, the two sets of double lines create the separation effect of having a raised island without actually installing a raised island.
Some jurisdictions will put chevron markings within the buffer area between the sets of double lines to emphasize that the buffer area should not be crossed. This is something Caltrans does not do with it's buffer-separated HOV lanes, from what I've seen.
Double yellow should never be used to separate same-direction traffic. It should be double whites on both sides.
Yeah, I'm not sure why Caltrans decided to use double yellow to make buffer-separated HOV lanes... I sure wish they'd switch to double white. They could think of it as a cost saving measure, as a switch would allow them to paint four lines instead of five (removing the single white on the HOV side).
Quote from: roadfro on April 13, 2010, 01:43:40 PM
They could think of it as a cost saving measure, as a switch would allow them to paint four lines instead of five (removing the single white on the HOV side).
Plus, I would think that white paint is generally cheaper than yellow paint. Right?
Quote from: mightyace on April 13, 2010, 06:50:04 PM
Plus, I would think that white paint is generally cheaper than yellow paint. Right?
Not sure about that...interesting question.
From what I recall while becoming a roadgeek in Vegas, something about white paint works better than yellow. It might retain brightness or reflectivity longer than yellow, or something like that...
Well yeah, if the paint is flat or eggshell...
Quote from: roadfro on April 14, 2010, 01:26:09 AMFrom what I recall while becoming a roadgeek in Vegas, something about white paint works better than yellow. It might retain brightness or reflectivity longer than yellow, or something like that...
As I understand it, the yellow color specification is finicky (it is nontrivial to get a true yellow instead of, say, orange) and the pigment is something like lead chromate (?), which is bad for the environment.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 14, 2010, 02:27:09 PM
Quote from: roadfro on April 14, 2010, 01:26:09 AMFrom what I recall while becoming a roadgeek in Vegas, something about white paint works better than yellow. It might retain brightness or reflectivity longer than yellow, or something like that...
As I understand it, the yellow color specification is finicky (it is nontrivial to get a true yellow instead of, say, orange) and the pigment is something like lead chromate (?), which is bad for the environment.
Whatever yellow they are using, it is horribly non reflective at night in rain
ODOT's got that beat -- lane markers are nortoriously hard to see in the dark or rain in Oregon. And when it's dark and raining...
Quote from: AlpsROADS on April 12, 2010, 10:27:05 PM
Double yellow should never be used to separate same-direction traffic. It should be double whites on both sides.
Atlanta does that, use the double white lines to separate HOV-2 traffic and the general-purpose lanes; however, folks seem to be confused. By confused, I mean, they cross left and right over the solid double and dashed double white lines. There is signage in place that states how to use the lanes, but like a lot of signs, they're ignored.
Be well,
Bryant
Quote from: roadfro on April 13, 2010, 01:43:40 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure why Caltrans decided to use double yellow to make buffer-separated HOV lanes... I sure wish they'd switch to double white. They could think of it as a cost saving measure, as a switch would allow them to paint four lines instead of five (removing the single white on the HOV side).
California state law (Vehicle Code Section 2160) prohibits driving to the left of parallel solid lines - note that color is not specified. The parallel white stripe is used to get around this prohibition. There is legislation that will amend the Vehicle Code to allow for the use of parallel solid white lines.
Quote from: jrouse on July 06, 2011, 05:05:39 PM
Quote from: roadfro on April 13, 2010, 01:43:40 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure why Caltrans decided to use double yellow to make buffer-separated HOV lanes... I sure wish they'd switch to double white. They could think of it as a cost saving measure, as a switch would allow them to paint four lines instead of five (removing the single white on the HOV side).
California state law (Vehicle Code Section 2160) prohibits driving to the left of parallel solid lines - note that color is not specified. The parallel white stripe is used to get around this prohibition. There is legislation that will amend the Vehicle Code to allow for the use of parallel solid white lines.
So how are they able to get around this issue when the I-680 Express Lane opened earlier this year? I know the don't-cross-double-white-lines rule was pretty heavily publicized prior to the opening of the express lane on TV and in the newspaper (namely Gary Richard's Roadshow column). While I've seen a decrease in the number of drivers crossing the double white lines, the current white-on-black signs informing drivers to not cross the lines are way too small given the flow of traffic.
Quote from: myosh_tino on July 06, 2011, 06:51:18 PM
Quote from: jrouse on July 06, 2011, 05:05:39 PM
California state law (Vehicle Code Section 2160) prohibits driving to the left of parallel solid lines - note that color is not specified. The parallel white stripe is used to get around this prohibition. There is legislation that will amend the Vehicle Code to allow for the use of parallel solid white lines.
So how are they able to get around this issue when the I-680 Express Lane opened earlier this year? I know the don't-cross-double-white-lines rule was pretty heavily publicized prior to the opening of the express lane on TV and in the newspaper (namely Gary Richard's Roadshow column). While I've seen a decrease in the number of drivers crossing the double white lines, the current white-on-black signs informing drivers to not cross the lines are way too small given the flow of traffic.
The I-680 Express Lanes were striped with double white because of how Caltrans interpreted another section of the Vehicle Code. CVC 21655.8 mentions driving to the left of double solid lines and preferential lanes. Caltrans used that law to justify the use of double solid white. CHP pointed out to Caltrans after the opening that this striping violated CVC 21460. Until CVC 21460 is fixed, double solid white cannot be used. The bill to make that change has cleared the Legislature (without a single no vote) and is now headed to the governor's desk. It appears highly likely that double white stripes will become legal in California.
Quote from: Alex on April 12, 2010, 07:01:09 AM
The two sets of a double lines constitutes a "painted median". You never want to cross those in Southern California.
just like a set of parallel, transverse white stripes across a road is a "painted cattle guard".
in other words: California expects us to be as smart as bovines.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 14, 2010, 02:27:09 PM
As I understand it, the yellow color specification is finicky (it is nontrivial to get a true yellow instead of, say, orange) and the pigment is something like lead chromate (?), which is bad for the environment.
I think lead chromate yellow has been phased out. It was replaced by the (slightly) less toxic cadmium yellow/cadmium orange mix.
Quote from: jrouse on July 07, 2011, 11:10:43 AM
The I-680 Express Lanes were striped with double white because of how Caltrans interpreted another section of the Vehicle Code. CVC 21655.8 mentions driving to the left of double solid lines and preferential lanes. Caltrans used that law to justify the use of double solid white. CHP pointed out to Caltrans after the opening that this striping violated CVC 21460. Until CVC 21460 is fixed, double solid white cannot be used. The bill to make that change has cleared the Legislature (without a single no vote) and is now headed to the governor's desk. It appears highly likely that double white stripes will become legal in California.
So, in theory, the 680 express lane should have been striped with double-yellow lines plus a single white line like the carpool lanes down in Los Angeles... interesting. If I recall correctly, the new I-580 express lanes currently under construction in the Livermore valley are supposed to be striped the same as the 680 express lane. Would it be safe to say that CVC 21460 will be changed before the 580 express lanes open?
Also, when CVC 21460 is fixed, will Southern California's HOV lanes be restriped with double white lines or can both standards still be used? I ask because there are some here (mostly non-Californians) that have issues with traffic flowing in the same direction but separated by a double-yellow line.
Quote from: myosh_tino on July 07, 2011, 03:56:44 PM
Quote from: jrouse on July 07, 2011, 11:10:43 AM
The I-680 Express Lanes were striped with double white because of how Caltrans interpreted another section of the Vehicle Code. CVC 21655.8 mentions driving to the left of double solid lines and preferential lanes. Caltrans used that law to justify the use of double solid white. CHP pointed out to Caltrans after the opening that this striping violated CVC 21460. Until CVC 21460 is fixed, double solid white cannot be used. The bill to make that change has cleared the Legislature (without a single no vote) and is now headed to the governor's desk. It appears highly likely that double white stripes will become legal in California.
So, in theory, the 680 express lane should have been striped with double-yellow lines plus a single white line like the carpool lanes down in Los Angeles... interesting. If I recall correctly, the new I-580 express lanes currently under construction in the Livermore valley are supposed to be striped the same as the 680 express lane. Would it be safe to say that CVC 21460 will be changed before the 580 express lanes open?
Also, when CVC 21460 is fixed, will Southern California's HOV lanes be restriped with double white lines or can both standards still be used? I ask because there are some here (mostly non-Californians) that have issues with traffic flowing in the same direction but separated by a double-yellow line.
In theory, yes, I-680 should have been striped with double-yellow lines plus a single white line. We thought we had a loophole with CVC 21655.8 that allowed for the use of double white stripes. AB 1105, which would amend CVC 21460, is on the governor's desk, and it's non-controversial. If approved, it would take effect January 1, 2012. So the law will be changed before the I-580 Express Lanes open.
Eventually double white stripes will be used in southern California, but it will take time to roll it out. Restriping will probably occur only as part of repaving projects. The double yellow with the parallel white would still be legal, because double white is being added to CVC 21460; there are no changes to the statute on double yellow. Furthermore, CVC 21655.8 is the section that prohibits crossing the double parallel stripe on an HOV lane, and it makes no distinction for color.
The best solution is to erect a barrier for HOV lanes to ensure entry/exit is only available at certain points.
I constantly see people cutting in and out of the HOV on the 5 and the 55. I don't think they even look at the stripe color, honestly.
Since I live on the southern coast of Oregon, a decidedly rural area, I wonder how well the HOV lanes work as according to folks who live in the metro areas that have them. This seems like the place to ask!
Rick
Quote from: OCGuy81 on September 20, 2011, 05:30:48 PM
The best solution is to erect a barrier for HOV lanes to ensure entry/exit is only available at certain points.
I constantly see people cutting in and out of the HOV on the 5 and the 55. I don't think they even look at the stripe color, honestly.
It's optimal to have barrier-separated HOV lanes in this scenario, but often impractical. When you add the barrier, you're supposed to also add shoulders for emergency breakdowns, etc., which is often infeasible due to the ROW--especially if constructing along an existing freeway corridor where ROW is already constrained.
Failing a barrier, it is often desireable to have buffer-separated HOV lanes with controlled entry/exit points. This seems to cut down on the illegal crossing of the lines. I think they do this in SoCal wherever feasible, but often as HOV lanes were added in, there was only room to put in the extra lanes and no space for a buffer.
QuoteSince I live on the southern coast of Oregon, a decidedly rural area, I wonder how well the HOV lanes work as according to folks who live in the metro areas that have them. This seems like the place to ask!
Rick
They seem to work out well for those that use them daily. I'm not one who uses them too often unless I'm taking a longer trip, like heading south to San Diego, I'll generally use the carpool lane on the 5. Generally, I weave around surface streets when making my day to day trips.
The tough thing about HOV lanes here in OC is the amount of lanes you have to cut across to get to your exit. The exit points for the HOV are signed well, but there are several instances where you'll have to cut across 4 or more lanes to get to an exit. The 5 Santa Ana Freeway just north of the 22 for the Chapman exit is one such example that comes to mind, as is the 55 (merging with the 405) carpool lane near John Wayne Airport. If you try to take the carpool lane all the way to the airport, you'd have to scoot across 5 lanes really quickly to exit MacArthur for the airport. This happened to a client of mine! :paranoid:
Overall, they seem to help, at least around here.
Quote from: nexus73 on September 20, 2011, 11:18:44 PM
Since I live on the southern coast of Oregon, a decidedly rural area, I wonder how well the HOV lanes work as according to folks who live in the metro areas that have them. This seems like the place to ask!
Rick
Up here in northern California (S.F. Bay Area to be exact), our HOV lanes are striped a little different from down south. Up here, we have "open access" HOV lanes which means cars are free to enter and exit the HOV lane at any point. The HOV lane is striped like a normal lane with a broken white line and during non-commute hours, the HOV lane functions as a general purpose lane. While it does make things more convenient for motorists to leave the HOV lane to make exits, it's potentially more dangerous because you never know when someone is going to dive into the HOV lane or slam on their brakes to exit the lane. Despite this, I do like the open-access HOV lane because of its ability to become a general purpose lane during non-commute hours.
Whenever I'm in an HOV lane during commute hours, I try to keep my speed between 55 and 65 MPH depending on the flow of traffic in the general purpose lanes and whether there are cars behind me.