AARoads Forum

Only interested in North America here - I'm well aware that much of Western Europe is in the Schengen Agreement and hence you can cross from one country into another and not even know it.

Any boundaries - national, state, or municipal - that if you didn't know they were there, you'd have no idea you were crossing into one jurisdiction or another. So any welcome signs, flags, or other markings would disqualify it. Also, noticeable changes in the layout/landscape would qualify (i.e. development suddenly stops and it becomes rural), along with major geographical features (for instance, crossing the Hudson River from Manhattan would be a reasonable guess that you're leaving NYC even if you didn't know that for a fact).

***

Near where I live comes to mind. The Fairlington neighborhood possesses part of the boundary between the City of Alexandria and Arlington County. The boundary runs in part along the north side of Columbus St.

If you look closely at the linked GSV, you'll see a modest seam in the pavement right at the edge of the traffic circle. On the near side of that seam, you're in Arlington County. On the other side of that seam, you're in Alexandria. You literally need to look at the tax maps of the two municipalities to know where the boundary is.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8372119,-77.1000063,3a,75y,260.74h,56.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s8hZVxuhDGl2Syq_8vwtOyg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

A lot of the border near El Camino Del Diablo in Arizona and Sonora isn't very distinctive.  About the only thing that kind of gives it away that something is up is the occasional presence of Border Patrol trucks or helicopters.  I still can't believe after how long it took to cross out four wheeling that anyone realistically things a physical barrier could just be slapped up like it was nothing. 

Traditionally, the District of Columbia didn't post any sort of welcome signs or other such things along most of the surface connections from Maryland. The main tipoff was that DC's street signs used a different style from Maryland's and included the quadrant (NW/NE/SE/SW) and a block number. You could sometimes tell where the line was from a noticeable pavement change, too, such as on MacArthur Boulevard: https://goo.gl/maps/gv5jERVcMR8EPF3D8  (Note that spot has an outbound "Welcome to Montgomery County" sign, though not a "Welcome to Maryland" sign, and has no DC sign.)

Back when Marion Barry was mayor, there were welcome signs on some (but not all) of the entries from Virginia, though they weren't always at the actual entry point. Those are gone now. The National Park Service has, to my recollection, always had signs on what is now the Clara Barton Parkway marking the DC/Maryland line–I guess you'd call those "LBSs" (for "Little Brown Signs"). The current sign entering DC there appears to have a line of all-caps Clearview: https://goo.gl/maps/abxUGB1AnbAhojQL6

DC does now have markers in some locations when you cross over from Maryland, though certainly not anywhere close to all of them. Here's the first such one I remember seeing, on Sheriff Road NE (look to the left): https://goo.gl/maps/JPojQ3ahwhqU5Z4i6

The Village of Colonie technically extends a short distance across the Northway, ending at Wolf Road (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.710703,-73.8191489,3a,75y,43.22h,84.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sC18vp-2Ll4tFlxqKmLVTmA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DC18vp-2Ll4tFlxqKmLVTmA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D11.992297%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192).  Good luck noticing that one side of the street is in a different jurisdiction than the other*.  There are welcome signs on nearby Central Avenue, but only once you cross the Northway (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7114919,-73.8257693,3a,32.5y,330.05h,88.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3Kbh97BQd-lWRbIodKebrA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).

*In NY, Villages exist within towns, not separately from them, so it is technically the Town of Colonie on both sides, but the Village is only one side.

VA/WV 102 winds across the border of the two states several times, and not all crossings are marked. There is usually a pavement seam, though.

Lots of county roads cross boundaries in Kentucky with no notation.

My hometown recently installed "city limits" signs on the state routes. In most of those cases, you'd have no idea you were entering the municipality from the county.

@Hoo-

Virginia into DC is a case of a geographic feature being a plausible boundary crossing, since a major river is involved.

I also gave the DC-MD boundaries some thought, and I think between the use of the geographic names (e.g. Southern Ave and the others), plus the fact that the development changes on either side of the avenues, it's a decent guess about a boundary.

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9055387,-76.9255407,3a,75y,133.19h,81.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfH3XmcP2IuFz7-mc36pXmQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

For instance, notice the setback differences on the DC side vs the MD side.

ADDED: Down your way, at Farrington Ave and Van Dorn, all you get is a pavement seam with no signage (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7986731,-77.1345693,3a,30y,190.51h,79.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJ64BYu4kpJEhZ_09DhV4CQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Additionally, you have light industrial on both the Fairfax and Alexandria sides of the boundary.

Quote from: hbelkins on April 27, 2020, 01:18:37 PM
VA/WV 102 winds across the border of the two states several times, and not all crossings are marked. There is usually a pavement seam, though.

Lots of county roads cross boundaries in Kentucky with no notation.

My hometown recently installed "city limits" signs on the state routes. In most of those cases, you'd have no idea you were entering the municipality from the county.

Does the consistent pavement imply that a single state DOT does all the maintenance (I have to assume it does). Definitely a good idea for a follow-on question (roads in which another state or jurisdiction does the maintenance).

Along State Line Road south of downtown Kansas City.

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on April 27, 2020, 02:31:54 PM
@Hoo-

Virginia into DC is a case of a geographic feature being a plausible boundary crossing, since a major river is involved.

....

Yeah, I know; the reason I mentioned that there used to be some signs there was primarily to distinguish it from the DC/Maryland side. I seem to recall once upon a time there was a "Welcome to Washington–A Capital City" sign at the east end of either the Roosevelt Bridge or Memorial Bridge (I forget which, though Memorial Bridge seems implausible due to NPS jurisdiction). But there is one area where the river is not really a "plausible geographic" thing–the crossings between Virginia and Columbia Island. None of those are marked as to DC/Virginia and for a couple of them you don't even notice you're crossing a waterway (Boundary Channel).

Quote from: 1995hoo on April 27, 2020, 02:50:50 PM

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on April 27, 2020, 02:31:54 PM
@Hoo-

Virginia into DC is a case of a geographic feature being a plausible boundary crossing, since a major river is involved.

....

But there is one area where the river is not really a "plausible geographic" thing–the crossings between Virginia and Columbia Island. None of those are marked as to DC/Virginia and for a couple of them you don't even notice you're crossing a waterway (Boundary Channel).

That's a real good one actually. You can tell from my previous post that I sort-of overlooked it myself (and I'm a lifer).

At least on the Key Bride, the signage is correct, insofar as the "Welcome to DC" sign is on the Rosslyn side of the bridge, not Georgetown.

Quote from: Konza on April 27, 2020, 02:38:45 PM
Along State Line Road south of downtown Kansas City.

QuoteModest, Surprising, or Otherwise Indistinguishable Borders

Given that the name of the road literally has "state line" in the title, it fails the test.

 Apparently, the two trucks in this GSV are either straddling the state line or are parked inches into PA (https://goo.gl/maps/zhJUyVFJ46ukJQjv5)

Having travelled the access road to Clingman's Dome from US 441 in the Smoky Mountains, I was unaware that it crossed the NC/TN border several times on its way to the end.  I only found that out it did when setting up my Travel Mapping file.

Also, in either direction of PA 896 - MD 896 - DE 896, there is no indication of entering Maryland - just entering Delaware (SE bound) or entering Pennsylvania (NW bound).  Granted, it only runs about 0.2 miles in Maryland.

Likewise, there is no mention of crossing into Washington DC on I-495 (Woodrow Wilson Bridge) - the distance is only 300 feet or so.

I'm sure there are a number of cases like the above two where a road just clips a state.

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on April 27, 2020, 11:15:18 AM
Only interested in North America here - I'm well aware that much of Western Europe is in the Schengen Agreement and hence you can cross from one country into another and not even know it.

We still sign country borders anyway, so most of the times you know you're switching countries (that and most of the times the language suddenly changes :sombrero:).

However why limit this to North America? Europe has subdivisions as well. Spain is divided into autonomous communities, and in turn they are divided into provinces (which long predate the communities). Catalonia uses an own division called comarques (Comarcas in Spanish), and they sign their limits. However they refuse to sign provincial borders, as they want to move away from that. Most of the times, the comarques match the provincial borders, but not always, and there is at least one instance where a provincial border goes totally unsigned: On the C-25 freeway (https://www.google.es/maps/@41.9013914,2.3388495,3a,75y,311.65h,72.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sffDFOrSl6dOAJ8LG4naZkw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Here you just have entered Barcelona province from Girona, but since both sides belong to the same comarca (Osona), the provincial border is unmarked.

Another example involves N-113, a national highway which goes through 4 communities in less than 10 miles. It dips into Aragon twice, but none are signed: One is here (https://www.google.es/maps/@42.0075931,-1.8459719,3a,71y,242.72h,86.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sE6R58l8pVW2foCEfgONMXw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) by the tripoint with Navarre and Rioja (The sign is wrong, it claims you are entering Rioja when you actually are entering Aragon, you only enter Rioja at the curve in the background) and another here (https://www.google.es/maps/@41.9787477,-1.8609668,3a,62.7y,192.38h,83.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY5pgy5WofDFHxmvnqHTeww!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (notice the different street signs). This last segment is even recognized in the log as entering Aragon.

The little green signs on I-684 that tell you that you are "Entering Greenwich"  and "Leaving Greenwich"  when you cross in and out of CT briefly.  CTDOT typically uses them to indicate that you're entering the center of a town or a village or boro.  Also, the sign where I-86 temporarily ends at US 220 that just says "State Border" . 

Quote from: vdeane on April 27, 2020, 01:08:05 PM
The Village of Colonie technically extends a short distance across the Northway, ending at Wolf Road (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.710703,-73.8191489,3a,75y,43.22h,84.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sC18vp-2Ll4tFlxqKmLVTmA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DC18vp-2Ll4tFlxqKmLVTmA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D11.992297%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192).  Good luck noticing that one side of the street is in a different jurisdiction than the other*.  There are welcome signs on nearby Central Avenue, but only once you cross the Northway (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7114919,-73.8257693,3a,32.5y,330.05h,88.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3Kbh97BQd-lWRbIodKebrA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).

*In NY, Villages exist within towns, not separately from them, so it is technically the Town of Colonie on both sides, but the Village is only one side.

I don't see how villages exist within towns.  Village of Colonie has its own leadership and taxes than the Town of Colonie, for example.  They seem like separate entities, as opposed to hamlets, which are just named places within other municipalities.

Quote from: Rothman on April 27, 2020, 09:20:40 PM

Quote from: vdeane on April 27, 2020, 01:08:05 PM
The Village of Colonie technically extends a short distance across the Northway, ending at Wolf Road (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.710703,-73.8191489,3a,75y,43.22h,84.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sC18vp-2Ll4tFlxqKmLVTmA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DC18vp-2Ll4tFlxqKmLVTmA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D11.992297%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192).  Good luck noticing that one side of the street is in a different jurisdiction than the other*.  There are welcome signs on nearby Central Avenue, but only once you cross the Northway (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7114919,-73.8257693,3a,32.5y,330.05h,88.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3Kbh97BQd-lWRbIodKebrA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).

*In NY, Villages exist within towns, not separately from them, so it is technically the Town of Colonie on both sides, but the Village is only one side.

I don't see how villages exist within towns.  Village of Colonie has its own leadership and taxes than the Town of Colonie, for example.  They seem like separate entities, as opposed to hamlets, which are just named places within other municipalities.

Villages are weird.  They're not like towns and cities, which both exist under counties at the same level... areas in a village are also in a town, and all parts of the state are in a town or city.  Then there are strange examples like the Village/Town of Green Island (it's incorporated as both).  There are also villages that cross county lines, like Saranac Lake.  That's also how village dissolutions work... they revert to being just the town and become a hamlet area.

Living in a place quite far from a state line, I've always thought the NY/NJ line in Rockland County was weirdly undistinguished. It's dense suburbia on both sides of the line, and sometimes when neighborhood streets cross the line there's no indication at all - not even so much as a welcome sign or a change in the pavement. Here (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0819926,-74.0928512,3a,75y,106.7h,89.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shYu6WqNsH4N7W_QmyHOkZQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), for example.

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on April 27, 2020, 09:11:10 PM
The little green signs on I-684 that tell you that you are "Entering Greenwich"  and "Leaving Greenwich"  when you cross in and out of CT briefly.  CTDOT typically uses them to indicate that you're entering the center of a town or a village or boro.  Also, the sign where I-86 temporarily ends at US 220 that just says "State Border" .

I think that's because NY maintains I-684 in CT, I think.

Quote from: vdeane on April 27, 2020, 09:41:17 PM

Quote from: Rothman on April 27, 2020, 09:20:40 PM

Quote from: vdeane on April 27, 2020, 01:08:05 PM
The Village of Colonie technically extends a short distance across the Northway, ending at Wolf Road (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.710703,-73.8191489,3a,75y,43.22h,84.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sC18vp-2Ll4tFlxqKmLVTmA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DC18vp-2Ll4tFlxqKmLVTmA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D11.992297%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192).  Good luck noticing that one side of the street is in a different jurisdiction than the other*.  There are welcome signs on nearby Central Avenue, but only once you cross the Northway (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7114919,-73.8257693,3a,32.5y,330.05h,88.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3Kbh97BQd-lWRbIodKebrA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).

*In NY, Villages exist within towns, not separately from them, so it is technically the Town of Colonie on both sides, but the Village is only one side.

I don't see how villages exist within towns.  Village of Colonie has its own leadership and taxes than the Town of Colonie, for example.  They seem like separate entities, as opposed to hamlets, which are just named places within other municipalities.

Villages are weird.  They're not like towns and cities, which both exist under counties at the same level... areas in a village are also in a town, and all parts of the state are in a town or city.  Then there are strange examples like the Village/Town of Green Island (it's incorporated as both).  There are also villages that cross county lines, like Saranac Lake.  That's also how village dissolutions work... they revert to being just the town and become a hamlet area.

Villages have their own boundaries and governments separate from towns.  Not sure what it means for them to actually be part of towns when that's the case.  Colonie's Town Supervisor doesn't have jurisdiction over the village, for example.

The Carter Lake, Iowa section of Abbott Dr leading from Omaha to the airport is IA 165. In each direction is a large "Hi diddly ho there, welcome to Iowa!" sign and IA 165 marker. But crossing back into Nebraska... nothing.

The Iowa part has to be surprising as well to travelers ("wait, when the family circus did we cross the Missouri River?")

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 27, 2020, 11:37:22 PM

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on April 27, 2020, 09:11:10 PM
The little green signs on I-684 that tell you that you are "Entering Greenwich"  and "Leaving Greenwich"  when you cross in and out of CT briefly.  CTDOT typically uses them to indicate that you're entering the center of a town or a village or boro.  Also, the sign where I-86 temporarily ends at US 220 that just says "State Border" .

I think that's because NY maintains I-684 in CT, I think.

They've actually been replaced by NYSDOT standard signs (you can tell the last time I was on that stretch) but I remember the old signs that used to have the outline of the state of CT that looked like the signs you'd see approaching a town center or a village on a state road.

Quote from: kurumi on April 28, 2020, 12:54:47 AM
The Carter Lake, Iowa section of Abbott Dr leading from Omaha to the airport is IA 165. In each direction is a large "Hi diddly ho there, welcome to Iowa!" sign and IA 165 marker. But crossing back into Nebraska... nothing.

Makes people think they're still in Iowa when they're not.

Most Twin Cities suburbs you have to tell by the change in street blades whether you've crossed lines. Minneapolis does have city limit signs on major arterials like France and Xerxes, but most cities don't even on major roads.

The MN 23 dip into Wisconsin is unmarked, and there are no connections to anywhere else in Wisconsin from it.

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on April 27, 2020, 03:03:18 PM

Quote from: Konza on April 27, 2020, 02:38:45 PM
Along State Line Road south of downtown Kansas City.

QuoteModest, Surprising, or Otherwise Indistinguishable Borders

Given that the name of the road literally has "state line" in the title, it fails the test.

I'm 300 feet from a state line, and similarly have a State Line Ave that marks an otherwise indistinguishable boundary.  However, a bit farther south, State Line Ave ends and there are streets that cross the state line, with the only distinguishing features being a change in the style of street signs and house numbering, which are indicative of a change in municipalities but not necessarily states.

Then there's State Line Road in Bright, Indiana, which does NOT follow the state line at all.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/State+Line+Rd,+Bright,+IN/@39.1908381,-84.8331497,15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x8841d345d69a597d:0xcbe2c89303834fd3!8m2!3d39.1925361!4d-84.8401165

t the very southern end it does follow the state line.  Not for very much of a distance, but it's there.

Driving down Secor Road approaching the Michigan-Ohio border there is nothing there to tell you that you just entered another state. The scenery is the same on both sides.

Quote from: Rothman on April 28, 2020, 12:14:55 AM

Quote from: vdeane on April 27, 2020, 09:41:17 PM

Quote from: Rothman on April 27, 2020, 09:20:40 PM

Quote from: vdeane on April 27, 2020, 01:08:05 PM
The Village of Colonie technically extends a short distance across the Northway, ending at Wolf Road (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.710703,-73.8191489,3a,75y,43.22h,84.19t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sC18vp-2Ll4tFlxqKmLVTmA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DC18vp-2Ll4tFlxqKmLVTmA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D11.992297%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192).  Good luck noticing that one side of the street is in a different jurisdiction than the other*.  There are welcome signs on nearby Central Avenue, but only once you cross the Northway (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7114919,-73.8257693,3a,32.5y,330.05h,88.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3Kbh97BQd-lWRbIodKebrA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).

*In NY, Villages exist within towns, not separately from them, so it is technically the Town of Colonie on both sides, but the Village is only one side.

I don't see how villages exist within towns.  Village of Colonie has its own leadership and taxes than the Town of Colonie, for example.  They seem like separate entities, as opposed to hamlets, which are just named places within other municipalities.

Villages are weird.  They're not like towns and cities, which both exist under counties at the same level... areas in a village are also in a town, and all parts of the state are in a town or city.  Then there are strange examples like the Village/Town of Green Island (it's incorporated as both).  There are also villages that cross county lines, like Saranac Lake.  That's also how village dissolutions work... they revert to being just the town and become a hamlet area.

Villages have their own boundaries and governments separate from towns.  Not sure what it means for them to actually be part of towns when that's the case.  Colonie's Town Supervisor doesn't have jurisdiction over the village, for example.

Villages tend to vary.  Some act a lot like small cities or towns, and then there are ones like Kiryas Joel (now the Town of Palm Tree) and Tuxedo Park (no public roads, few entrances, all gated except the one with the police department (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1951439,-74.1848517,3a,19.8y,288.8h,90.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sburB4Ajc3w4UDv30nwoZSg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)).

https://www.dos.ny.gov/lg/localgovs.html

Quote
Villages in New York State must exist within a town. Every citizen in New York State that lives in a village lives in 3 different municipalities: a village, a town and a county. Villages are also the only form of general purpose local governments that truly exist at the discretion of its residents. Villages can be created or dissolved by local initiative, a structure that enables residents of villages to respond to the need to provide specific services in areas with a high density of population. Villages are also sometimes established as a result of a difference in development philosophies of citizens and town officials.

Differences in the size of villages and in the services they perform make it difficult to describe the organization of a "typical"  village. Larger villages often have multi-departmental organizations similar to cities, while small villages may employ one or two individuals. Functions performed by villages range from basic road repair and snow removal to large-scale community development programs and public utility plants. A number of villages operate their own municipal electric systems.

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on April 27, 2020, 02:36:22 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on April 27, 2020, 01:18:37 PM
VA/WV 102 winds across the border of the two states several times, and not all crossings are marked. There is usually a pavement seam, though.

Lots of county roads cross boundaries in Kentucky with no notation.

My hometown recently installed "city limits" signs on the state routes. In most of those cases, you'd have no idea you were entering the municipality from the county.

Does the consistent pavement imply that a single state DOT does all the maintenance (I have to assume it does). Definitely a good idea for a follow-on question (roads in which another state or jurisdiction does the maintenance).

If you're talking about consistent pavement crossing city limits, then yes, Kentucky generally maintains state routes within incorporated areas (with some exceptions for Lexington and Louisville). The VA/WV example, to the best of my recollection, there's a noticeable change in pavement at each crossing.

For an example of one state maintaining a road in another state, US 52/119 (Corridor G) twice crosses into Pike County, Ky., from Mingo County, WV. West Virginia built and maintains the road, but other than a small signs saying "Pike County Kentucky" and "Mingo County West Virginia" the only indication that you're in Kentucky is the 55 mph speed limit. Once the road crosses into WV for good, the speed limit increases to 65.

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on April 27, 2020, 03:11:04 PM
Apparently, the two trucks in this GSV are either straddling the state line or are parked inches into PA (https://goo.gl/maps/zhJUyVFJ46ukJQjv5)

If you zoom in on the mapview, it seems as though Google has the state line in the wrong place.  There's a pretty clear delineation a few feet north of there about where that street ends.

Quote from: Rothman on April 27, 2020, 09:20:40 PMI don't see how villages exist within towns.  Village of Colonie has its own leadership and taxes than the Town of Colonie, for example.  They seem like separate entities, as opposed to hamlets, which are just named places within other municipalities.

Illinois is the same way. Cities and villages exist within townships and can span counties. Townships are all in one county. Cities and villages are incorporated and provide municipal services. Townships are not incorporated and provide different services than cities and villages do. Not all land is in a city or village.

Back to the topic, we live in an unincorporated area (township but not village) but the street in front of our house is in the adjacent village. The unmarked border runs through our front yard at the edge of the legal street right of way. About the only thing that marks it is our water well head is just a few inches on to our property at one of the corners. We're on a corner lot but the street on the side where our driveway is not in the village. Village maintains the street in front; township maintains the one on the side (township maintains roads only in the unincorporated areas not maintained by the county or state).

Before someone else mentions it, I'll add 0 Avenue in Abbottsford B.C., paired with Boundary Road on the Washington side. That's the international border between the two roads.

(https://i.imgur.com/GmjNt8B.png)

Most backroad crossings between towns (and, conversely in some cases, counties) in Vermont would qualify for this thread.

Quote from: Kniwt on April 28, 2020, 08:57:30 PM
Before someone else mentions it, I'll add 0 Avenue in Abbottsford B.C., paired with Boundary Road on the Washington side. That's the international border between the two roads.

QuoteModest, Surprising, or Otherwise Indistinguishable Borders

When I walked across the US 1 bridge between New Hampshire and Maine, I could not figure out where the exact boundary was, even by pavement markings. While it's obvious that the border is on the bridge, that still gives a 1/3 mile region of uncertainty.

EDIT: And if you don't know the region, the area code change is your only clue, even after getting off the bridge. The road signs don't tell you, either.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on April 28, 2020, 06:18:33 AM
Most Twin Cities suburbs you have to tell by the change in street blades whether you've crossed lines. Minneapolis does have city limit signs on major arterials like France and Xerxes, but most cities don't even on major roads.

The MN 23 dip into Wisconsin is unmarked, and there are no connections to anywhere else in Wisconsin from it.

While that is true, the Mont du Lac Resort is in Wisconsin on MN 23.
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.6582005,-92.2879625,15.25z?hl=en

On a side not in that same area, on MN 39/WIS 105, there is no welcome sign for Minnesota and the Wisconsin sign is after Minneapolis Ave in Oliver. About 1/2 mile after crossing the St Louis River.
Also, the Oliver Bridge is a pretty cool bridge that carries the road and a railroad above the roadway.

Quote from: frankenroad on April 28, 2020, 11:09:50 AM
Then there's State Line Road in Bright, Indiana, which does NOT follow the state line at all.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/State+Line+Rd,+Bright,+IN/@39.1908381,-84.8331497,15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x8841d345d69a597d:0xcbe2c89303834fd3!8m2!3d39.1925361!4d-84.8401165

I bit further up the border at West Harrison, notice how the mailbox numbers are different by a lot on either side of State St. 1104 on the east. 703 on the west.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2536155,-84.8200545,3a,71.7y,192.45h,71.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXVMAXSoA83dfTsfNPYxmhA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Quote from: Kniwt on April 28, 2020, 08:57:30 PM
Before someone else mentions it, I'll add 0 Avenue in Abbottsford B.C., paired with Boundary Road on the Washington side. That's the international border between the two roads.

(https://i.imgur.com/GmjNt8B.png)

And no wall between the international borders? Wait til Donny hears about this.

Quote from: 1 on April 29, 2020, 01:01:23 PM
When I walked across the US 1 bridge between New Hampshire and Maine, I could not figure out where the exact boundary was, even by pavement markings. While it's obvious that the border is on the bridge, that still gives a 1/3 mile region of uncertainty.

EDIT: And if you don't know the region, the area code change is your only clue, even after getting off the bridge. The road signs don't tell you, either.

Many of the Mississippi River crossings appear to be similar situations. This would never happen at the international water crossings, though, which are always marked clearly. The Peace Bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9069526,-78.9060019,3a,75y,155.21h,109.54t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suzWp4vsF3x8_f1mwWnKcaQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DuzWp4vsF3x8_f1mwWnKcaQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D95.85104%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1), for example (there's also a (faded) plaque on the other side of the bridge).

Well, if "Boundary Road" is too obvious to fit within the definition, then try this: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0101454,-73.3816947,3a,75y,277.68h,83.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVPPnThB8QS3r9R-XqSi2zg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on April 29, 2020, 09:33:27 PM
Well, if "Boundary Road" is too obvious to fit within the definition, then try this: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0101454,-73.3816947,3a,75y,277.68h,83.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVPPnThB8QS3r9R-XqSi2zg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Despite where the blue line is in the  one above, other sources suggest the road is entirely in the U.S.

OTOH, this one in Beene Plain, Vermont / Stanstead, Quebec has the border down the middle of this residential street (Rue Canusa in French). Houses to the right are in the U.S.; to the left are in Canada.
https://goo.gl/maps/WY7S1dc4PXn1f619A

The west end of the street ends at a cross-border road between the entrance stations. To the east, the road turns north into Canada so people living on the U.S. side of the street can't to that way without first being admitted into Canada.

A few miles to the east is the famous Haskell Library and Opera House where the entrance and theater seats are in the U.S. and the stage and the library are in Canada.

Quote from: 1 on April 29, 2020, 01:01:23 PM
When I walked across the US 1 bridge between New Hampshire and Maine, I could not figure out where the exact boundary was, even by pavement markings. While it's obvious that the border is on the bridge, that still gives a 1/3 mile region of uncertainty.

EDIT: And if you don't know the region, the area code change is your only clue, even after getting off the bridge. The road signs don't tell you, either.

There is at least a "Welcome to Kittery, Maine" sign: https://goo.gl/maps/CrrXZZY14PJLxnAg9 as you leave Badgers Island, and the usual litany of "state law X" signs you'll find entering a state between Badgers Island and the signal at Government St, so there are some clues. The sign does say Maine after all.

Nothing southbound though, and I am really surprised they didn't put up either a blue welcome sign (like after the Long Bridge) or a green state line sign (like on the Piscataqua Bridge). I guess MaineDOT figured only local traffic would be using the Memorial Bridge given the poorly posted, somewhat circuitous route US 1 follows in Portsmouth and the presence of both I-95 and US 1 Bypass for through traffic.

Quote from: lstone19 on April 29, 2020, 09:59:18 PM

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on April 29, 2020, 09:33:27 PM
Well, if "Boundary Road" is too obvious to fit within the definition, then try this: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0101454,-73.3816947,3a,75y,277.68h,83.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVPPnThB8QS3r9R-XqSi2zg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Despite where the blue line is in the  one above, other sources suggest the road is entirely in the U.S.

OTOH, this one in Beene Plain, Vermont / Stanstead, Quebec has the border down the middle of this residential street (Rue Canusa in French). Houses to the right are in the U.S.; to the left are in Canada.
https://goo.gl/maps/WY7S1dc4PXn1f619A

The west end of the street ends at a cross-border road between the entrance stations. To the east, the road turns north into Canada so people living on the U.S. side of the street can't to that way without first being admitted into Canada.

A few miles to the east is the famous Haskell Library and Opera House where the entrance and theater seats are in the U.S. and the stage and the library are in Canada.

NY 276 is entirely in the US.  However, once you're away from the port of entry at the western end of this particular segment of highway....well, looking at the Streetview, can you tell that the border is the northern edge of the right-of-way? 

I thought about posting Rue Canusa, but if "Boundary Rd" doesn't fit the thread title, then "Rue Canusa" also doesn't fit.

A few years ago, when my wife and I were looking to move, I stumbled across this house being for sale: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0058981,-72.1419735,3a,27.4y,248.62h,89.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0kQRNCe9hYChT9GTRAYAFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Note the border obelisk at the steps up to the front porch.

Sadly, neither my wife nor I are handy (and it looked like the place needed a lot of work), traffic is a bit of a problem, and we were trying at that point to move closer to family rather than further away.... 

Since then, I started to work cross-border, and I semi-regret not being able to take advantage of a unique opportunity.

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on April 30, 2020, 09:27:16 AM
A few years ago, when my wife and I were looking to move, I stumbled across this house being for sale: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0058981,-72.1419735,3a,27.4y,248.62h,89.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0kQRNCe9hYChT9GTRAYAFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

According to the Wikipedia article about Beebe Plain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beebe_Plain), that house was originally the joint post office for both the U.S. and Canadian sides. One postmaster working both sides. It would be interesting to live there but probably also a pain. From what I've read, pre-2001, the U.S. Immigration and Customs agents tended to know all the U.S. residents living along the border so they could quickly get across. Now things are a lot more formal.

Quote from: lstone19 on April 30, 2020, 11:17:07 AM

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on April 30, 2020, 09:27:16 AM
A few years ago, when my wife and I were looking to move, I stumbled across this house being for sale: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0058981,-72.1419735,3a,27.4y,248.62h,89.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0kQRNCe9hYChT9GTRAYAFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

According to the Wikipedia article about Beebe Plain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beebe_Plain), that house was originally the joint post office for both the U.S. and Canadian sides. One postmaster working both sides. It would be interesting to live there but probably also a pain. From what I've read, pre-2001, the U.S. Immigration and Customs agents tended to know all the U.S. residents living along the border so they could quickly get across. Now things are a lot more formal.

I read an article about living in that area that said there are a lot of nuisances involved in owning a house that's split by the border. Differing plumbing and electrical codes are one issue: If you replace a toilet, for example, you have to make sure you note in which country that bathroom is located so that you buy a toilet that's compliant with that country/state/province plumbing code. (That is, while Canadian law may have changed since that article was written, they allowed toilets that used more water per flush compared to the US law that took effect in 1994 limiting new toilets to 1.6 gpf. Toilets from the 1980s typically used 3.5 gpf and older ones used even more.) The same article also mentioned the importance of making sure you sleep in the country in which you're a citizen.

I don't remember where I found that article. Odds are it was the Washington Post or the New York Times, but I just don't remember anymore. I'm sure it was written sometime in the months after September 11 to discuss how life in those border communities had been changed.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7053066,-84.4226272,3a,90y,83.83h,92.61t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUGXYPV5okVC_DEUKqUN2eg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DUGXYPV5okVC_DEUKqUN2eg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D83.38278%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

The right side is in Ohio, the left is in Michigan.  No sign mentioning either, the last time I was through there.

Quote from: 1995hoo on April 30, 2020, 11:36:17 AM

Quote from: lstone19 on April 30, 2020, 11:17:07 AM

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on April 30, 2020, 09:27:16 AM
A few years ago, when my wife and I were looking to move, I stumbled across this house being for sale: https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0058981,-72.1419735,3a,27.4y,248.62h,89.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0kQRNCe9hYChT9GTRAYAFg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

According to the Wikipedia article about Beebe Plain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beebe_Plain), that house was originally the joint post office for both the U.S. and Canadian sides. One postmaster working both sides. It would be interesting to live there but probably also a pain. From what I've read, pre-2001, the U.S. Immigration and Customs agents tended to know all the U.S. residents living along the border so they could quickly get across. Now things are a lot more formal.

I read an article about living in that area that said there are a lot of nuisances involved in owning a house that's split by the border. Differing plumbing and electrical codes are one issue: If you replace a toilet, for example, you have to make sure you note in which country that bathroom is located so that you buy a toilet that's compliant with that country/state/province plumbing code. (That is, while Canadian law may have changed since that article was written, they allowed toilets that used more water per flush compared to the US law that took effect in 1994 limiting new toilets to 1.6 gpf. Toilets from the 1980s typically used 3.5 gpf and older ones used even more.) The same article also mentioned the importance of making sure you sleep in the country in which you're a citizen.

I don't remember where I found that article. Odds are it was the Washington Post or the New York Times, but I just don't remember anymore. I'm sure it was written sometime in the months after September 11 to discuss how life in those border communities had been changed.

At least with respect to that specific house, I would think customs wouldn't be an issue since the garage is on the US side behind the barrier, and there's the fence blocking off the property access from Canada.

Quote from: 1 on April 29, 2020, 01:01:23 PM
When I walked across the US 1 bridge between New Hampshire and Maine, I could not figure out where the exact boundary was, even by pavement markings. While it's obvious that the border is on the bridge, that still gives a 1/3 mile region of uncertainty.

EDIT: And if you don't know the region, the area code change is your only clue, even after getting off the bridge. The road signs don't tell you, either.

Typically, one jurisdiction or the other maintains the entire structure. Some of Kentucky's river crossings are marked with signs at the state line, but most aren't. You may not notice a change in pavement striping until you get on land at the other side of the bridge, or you may notice one before you get onto the bridge.

Quote from: vdeane on April 30, 2020, 01:21:20 PM
At least with respect to that specific house, I would think customs wouldn't be an issue since the garage is on the US side behind the barrier, and there's the fence blocking off the property access from Canada.

You're right. I spent so much time looking at the house itself that I missed the barrier and fence. Clearly, the house is considered to be in the U.S. and has access avoiding the border stations.

The people who have it "interesting" are the one living on the U.S. side of Rue Canusa. Getting to their houses from the U.S. side would mean passing the U.S. border station and then turning right on Rue Canusa. I would assume that get the attention of CBSA (Canada Border Services Agency) as everyone heading down Rue Canusa to anyplace other than the what appears to be 13 U.S. houses in going into Canada and needs to formally enter Canada. And if they're coming from the east on Rue Canusa, they're in Canada so I assume they need to pass their house, enter the U.S., make a U-turn, and then back to the house.

Leaving, I assume they must go west to either pass the U.S. station (even though they are already in the U.S. other than they had to drive down the Canadian side of the street) or formally enter Canada at their station. No matter what, you're getting in line at one of the inspection stations.

Anyway, it turns out this was discussed here three years ago: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=19841.0

Quote from: 1995hoo on April 27, 2020, 11:31:40 AM
Traditionally, the District of Columbia didn't post any sort of welcome signs or other such things along most of the surface connections from Maryland. The main tipoff was that DC's street signs used a different style from Maryland's and included the quadrant (NW/NE/SE/SW) and a block number.

Many years ago (1960's and before), the Maryland State Roads Commission (SRC, predecessor to State Highway Administration) posted a "county line" type of sign which were once common across the state at county boundary crossings, which were black type on a white background and had ENTERING and the county name and then LEAVING and the county name.  At the points where SRC-maintenance roads like U.S. 1, Alternate U.S. 1, U.S. 29 and the old U.S. 240 (now MD-355) ended at the D.C. boundary there was such a sign, with DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA shown as ENTERING "county."  Leaving D.C. and entering Maryland (on an SRC-maintained road) the sign was reversed, with D.C. shown as the "leaving" county.

I have not seen such a sign for a very long time, presumably all are gone now.

Quote from: 1995hoo on April 27, 2020, 02:50:50 PM
Yeah, I know; the reason I mentioned that there used to be some signs there was primarily to distinguish it from the DC/Maryland side. I seem to recall once upon a time there was a "Welcome to Washington–A Capital City" sign at the east end of either the Roosevelt Bridge or Memorial Bridge (I forget which, though Memorial Bridge seems implausible due to NPS jurisdiction). But there is one area where the river is not really a "plausible geographic" thing–the crossings between Virginia and Columbia Island. None of those are marked as to DC/Virginia and for a couple of them you don't even notice you're crossing a waterway (Boundary Channel.

The "A Capital City" tagline came about during one of the administrations of the late former Mayor-for-Life of the District of Columbia, Marion Shepilov Barry, Jr. 

Regarding the Memorial Bridge, it is unlikely that there would ever have been such a sign there because all of the structure is well inside the District of Columbia.

As was mentioned in this thread, the boundary between D.C. and Virginia is at the Boundary Channel (not sure if it is the low water mark on the Virginia shore or not). I have never seen a sign marking the boundary on any of the roads entering Columbia Island from Virginia.  Fun fact - Columbia Island is home to the only arterial street name that actually crosses the boundary between Arlington County, Virginia and D.C. - VA-27, Washington Boulevard in Arlington and Washington Boulevard, S.W. in D.C. (I do not think NPS has signed it in D.C. ever, but it does show up in some GIS files and on Google Maps).

Chain Bridge Road can be found on both sides of Chain Bridge but they do not touch each other.

The George Washington Memorial Parkway also crosses happily between D.C. and Virginia, but I do not consider that an arterial, is it is more of an expressway.

NPS is generally not interested in showing state line crossings and definitely not county or municipal boundary crossings, with the exception of the Clara Barton Parkway (also mentioned upthread).   There is no sign marking the boundary on the Baltimore-Washington Parkway in either direction (that's an issue because more than once the MPD-DC have engaged in a high-speed pursuit of a car or motorcycle east on U.S. 50 (New York Avenue, N.E.) into Maryland (where the B-W Parkway begins, and then to the interchange at U.S. 50 and MD-201 in Prince George's County, where the vehicle being chased then wrecked while trying to head back into D.C. by way of MD-201 and presumably DC-295 - the ramp from U.S. 50 eastbound to MD-201 southbound is narrow and very unforgiving of speeding cars and motorcycles).

I recall such a chase that ended in a high-speed crash one evening where there were a dozen MPD-DC cars on the scene but no Prince George's County or Maryland State Police cars present, apparently the D.C. officers were not aware that they were in Maryland.  I called MSP College Park and politely suggested that they might want to dispatch a trooper or two to the scene, explaining that their services were needed there but D.C. did not seem to be aware of that - the MSP dispatcher (who knew nothing of the pursuit or the resulting crash) thanked me and sent three or four cars to the scene, a good thing since I think it was a fatal crash (that MPD-DC could not legally investigate).

Part of the problem here is that many people (correctly) equate the Maryland/D.C. border with the streets that run parallel to and (mostly) just inside D.C. - Southern Avenue, S.E./N.E., Eastern Avenue, N.E./N.W. and Western Avenue, N.W. With one or two exceptions, these streets are entirely in D.C. (there is a "frontage road" part of Eastern Avenue where D.C. borders Takoma Park, Montgomery County that is in Maryland).  So people who live on these streets on the Maryland side pay their taxes in Maryland, send children to Maryland schools and so on, but in order to go anywhere, most of them have to leave Maryland and go to the sidewalk or the street in D.C.  But some places where is no street marking the boundary, such as the Clara Barton Parkway (marked by sign), MacArthur Boulevard (marked by sign), Beach Drive, Primrose Road, N.W./Grubb Road, Maple Avenue, U.S. 50 (New York Avenue, N.E. and Baltimore-Washington Parkway), Suitland Parkway (there's a bridge that carries Southern Avenue, S.E. over the parkway and there is a D.C. welcome sign on the westbound parkway headed into D.C.) and I-295 (Anacostia Freeway), one has to know from local knowledge or GPS that they have crossed the boundary between D.C. and Maryland.

Wow, this thread blew up since I first saw it!  Anyway, my first thought when I saw the thread was my first (and so far only) time in Michigan.  It was quite disappointing.  In 2016, I was visiting a friend who now lives in Ohio, and we drove into Michigan just so I could say I was in the state.  I had an idea of where the border (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7296889,-83.5669825,3a,32.7y,15.83h,89.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1surs3OMvTl611D2FFN8Fngw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) was (the pavement change wasn't as obvious at the time), but I wasn't 100% sure I was in Michigan until I saw a few yellow stoplights (here's the first one I would have seen (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7358336,-83.5672311,3a,50y,8.96h,95t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sX4pjqCclMwxN-JaQRHgvIA!2e0!5s20150801T000000!7i13312!8i6656)).  If I hadn't known that Michigan stoplights are yellow, I wouldn't have known I was in Michigan.  Once we got to the post office we turned around at (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.763996,-83.5681669,3a,75y,266.88h,91.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr-UsPX7o2JNPJfEX1vjIpw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), I figured we had to be in Michigan at that point.  Crossing back into Ohio, there was a Toledo sign, but it was small.  I think this (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7294341,-83.5855352,3a,23.8y,187.14h,89.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH9uNQEQuNYQqvAmzieAT4g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is where we crossed back into Ohio.

The closest border to me that fits this thread is Seneca Falls/Waterloo.  The border appears to be just before the side street on the right (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9022733,-76.8421153,3a,75y,260.26h,84.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sseDChMh_E9zZ9b98ZeZRPw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).  I posted somewhere on the forum a long time ago about businesses to the east having signs that read "Seneca Falls" along with the main sign and how I thought it was a local code because the border is so unclear.

Further to the west on US 20/NY 5, the eastern border of Geneva (along with the Seneca/Ontario county line) is blurry.  The border is at the brown sign on the right (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8761241,-76.962857,3a,75y,244.11h,86.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv2acnjb4qFNcBv7CZrbkgw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), but the other direction has both a county and town line sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8758879,-76.9631791,3a,57.9y,60.33h,91.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKVPEYMicJep46pBJRnYoPQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), which can be seen across the road in the first Street View image.

Leaving Syracuse on NY 5, there's no sign (the border is at the speed limit sign) (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0495891,-76.1952464,3a,75y,257.24h,88.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn2ch64bnqR7bVmcZLj1CEg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), and the sign entering Syracuse is a pretty small banner on top of a "CITY SPEED LIMIT" sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0493712,-76.195566,3a,35.5y,47.19h,93.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6Z5TRxh-dRU-Etgn1KIu-w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).  I don't recall the blue Syracuse sign from when I was younger, so I'm guessing it's fairly new.  On the east side of Syracuse, the intersection of NY 5 and NY 635 is on the city line, and there isn't a sign heading eastbound (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0554878,-76.0829599,3a,89.4y,84.76h,85.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqInU8nxZrYSxyEf7FSk2SA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).  I can't recall ever seeing a sign heading westbound, but it looks like there was one in the median of Erie Blvd (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0555845,-76.084391,3a,55.9y,277.33h,94.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1scaD_FXu1Mg6yjs51bt710g!2e0!5s20151101T000000!7i13312!8i6656).  A proper sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0556142,-76.0843922,3a,45.8y,270.79h,90.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sihz55q6Bdj_rsDjkhePk8A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) was added sometime between November 2015 and August 2019.

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on April 27, 2020, 09:11:10 PM
The little green signs on I-684 that tell you that you are "Entering Greenwich"  and "Leaving Greenwich"  when you cross in and out of CT briefly.  CTDOT typically uses them to indicate that you're entering the center of a town or a village or boro.  Also, the sign where I-86 temporarily ends at US 220 that just says "State Border" . 

I finally got to go on that section of I-86/NY 17 in 2012 if I remember right.  It was so weird to see NYSDOT bridges and box-beam guardrail in PA.  This segment of road is one that answers AlexandriaVA's question earlier:

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on April 27, 2020, 02:36:22 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on April 27, 2020, 01:18:37 PM
VA/WV 102 winds across the border of the two states several times, and not all crossings are marked. There is usually a pavement seam, though.

Lots of county roads cross boundaries in Kentucky with no notation.

My hometown recently installed "city limits" signs on the state routes. In most of those cases, you'd have no idea you were entering the municipality from the county.

Does the consistent pavement imply that a single state DOT does all the maintenance (I have to assume it does). Definitely a good idea for a follow-on question (roads in which another state or jurisdiction does the maintenance).

Oh, and lastly, any county line on the NY Thruway.

Quote from: Michael on May 10, 2020, 07:58:27 PM
I think this (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7294341,-83.5855352,3a,23.8y,187.14h,89.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH9uNQEQuNYQqvAmzieAT4g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is where we crossed back into Ohio.

I used to live in the small apartment building on the right side of that streetview some thirty-five years ago!

I think huge swaths of the BC/WA border, especially in suburban areas, is fairly indistinguishable. Apart from some fences, homes not facing each other, and the occasional obelisk.

Every road in these images is "0 Ave", the southern-most road in the Vancouver street grid and therefore not necessarily surprising that it would be the edge of Vancouver, but those not familiar with geography wouldn't necessarily assume that beyond 0 Ave is automatically another country. It just looks like more of what's already on the other side, or perhaps a park. Signs are fairly minimal:

(https://i.imgur.com/VuSReVx.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/THpaC7I.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/P035G0t.png)

Quote from: Michael on May 10, 2020, 07:58:27 PM
The closest border to me that fits this thread is Seneca Falls/Waterloo.  The border appears to be just before the side street on the right (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9022733,-76.8421153,3a,75y,260.26h,84.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sseDChMh_E9zZ9b98ZeZRPw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).  I posted somewhere on the forum a long time ago about businesses to the east having signs that read "Seneca Falls" along with the main sign and how I thought it was a local code because the border is so unclear.

Hamlets don't have borders, so Seneca Falls naturally wouldn't have anything marked since the village dissolved.

Quote from: jakeroot on May 10, 2020, 08:52:12 PM
I think huge swaths of the BC/WA border, especially in suburban areas, is fairly indistinguishable. Apart from some fences, homes not facing each other, and the occasional obelisk.

Every road in these images is "0 Ave", the southern-most road in the Vancouver street grid and therefore not necessarily surprising that it would be the edge of Vancouver, but those not familiar with geography wouldn't necessarily assume that beyond 0 Ave is automatically another country. It just looks like more of what's already on the other side, or perhaps a park. Signs are fairly minimal:

(https://i.imgur.com/VuSReVx.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/THpaC7I.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/P035G0t.png)

Border Wall -- we don't need no stinking border wall -- we got ourselves a Border Ditch!

Quote from: vdeane on May 10, 2020, 09:31:21 PM

Quote from: Michael on May 10, 2020, 07:58:27 PM
The closest border to me that fits this thread is Seneca Falls/Waterloo.  The border appears to be just before the side street on the right (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9022733,-76.8421153,3a,75y,260.26h,84.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sseDChMh_E9zZ9b98ZeZRPw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).  I posted somewhere on the forum a long time ago about businesses to the east having signs that read "Seneca Falls" along with the main sign and how I thought it was a local code because the border is so unclear.

Hamlets don't have borders, so Seneca Falls naturally wouldn't have anything marked since the village dissolved.

The photo is the Seneca Falls—Waterloo town line (and village of Waterloo); pan left a bit to see the back of the Seneca Falls town line sign. The former Seneca Falls village line is a mile or so away. This brings up two of the peeves I have about NYSDOT town/village line signs:

1) There is still a lot of inconsistency about whether town lines get signed. There has never been a full statewide project to sign them all, so it's just a matter of luck that a particular town line fell within a full-replacement sign project in recent decades. Even that might not be enough – several years ago, NY 63 from I-390 exit 7 to the Livingston—Wyoming county line had a paving-and-all-signs job, but the town line signs remained absent.

2) Current NYSDOT policy is to have a town line sign when leaving a village, which is wrong because the village is part of that town (and you can enter a different town without leaving a village). Leaving the Village of Dansville, the sign says "Town of North Dansville"  even though you were already in the town.
I think there should be a VILLAGE LINE sign for exiting a village (and not entering a contiguous village or city). If, by coincidence, there is also a town line, then both should be posted. In the example above, the other direction could say:
(and I like the old freeway standard where "COUNTY OF" , etc., was in smaller all-caps)

Quote from: jakeroot on May 10, 2020, 08:52:12 PM
I think huge swaths of the BC/WA border, especially in suburban areas, is fairly indistinguishable. Apart from some fences, homes not facing each other, and the occasional obelisk.

Every road in these images is "0 Ave", the southern-most road in the Vancouver street grid and therefore not necessarily surprising that it would be the edge of Vancouver, but those not familiar with geography wouldn't necessarily assume that beyond 0 Ave is automatically another country. It just looks like more of what's already on the other side, or perhaps a park. Signs are fairly minimal:

(images snipped)

How does, for example, a parent retrieve a 2-3 YO kid who runs across that street without creating an international incident (ditto Canusa St at Derby Line, VT/Stanstead, QC)?

Mike

Quote from: dlsterner on April 27, 2020, 04:49:26 PM
Having travelled the access road to Clingman's Dome from US 441 in the Smoky Mountains, I was unaware that it crossed the NC/TN border several times on its way to the end.  I only found that out it did when setting up my Travel Mapping file.

There is also no line drawn into the Newfound Gap parking lot at the NC/TN state line on US 441.

https://goo.gl/maps/gVmXaWC851Xmp9Yp6

Mike

Quote from: mgk920 on May 11, 2020, 10:38:42 AM

Quote from: dlsterner on April 27, 2020, 04:49:26 PM
Having travelled the access road to Clingman's Dome from US 441 in the Smoky Mountains, I was unaware that it crossed the NC/TN border several times on its way to the end.  I only found that out it did when setting up my Travel Mapping file.

There is also no line drawn into the Newfound Gap parking lot at the NC/TN state line on US 441.

https://goo.gl/maps/gVmXaWC851Xmp9Yp6

Mike

There used to be those wooden style National Park signs in the parking lot showing the border, with arrows pointing to the Tennessee and North Carolina sides. I may have a picture somewhere.

Quote from: mgk920 on May 11, 2020, 10:31:31 AM

Quote from: jakeroot on May 10, 2020, 08:52:12 PM
I think huge swaths of the BC/WA border, especially in suburban areas, is fairly indistinguishable. Apart from some fences, homes not facing each other, and the occasional obelisk.

Every road in these images is "0 Ave", the southern-most road in the Vancouver street grid and therefore not necessarily surprising that it would be the edge of Vancouver, but those not familiar with geography wouldn't necessarily assume that beyond 0 Ave is automatically another country. It just looks like more of what's already on the other side, or perhaps a park. Signs are fairly minimal:

(images snipped)

How does, for example, a parent retrieve a 2-3 YO kid who runs across that street without creating an international incident (ditto Canusa St at Derby Line, VT/Stanstead, QC)?

Probably best to just try and avoid that happening. Alternatively, don't let any border guards see it happen :-D.

Quote from: hbelkins on May 11, 2020, 12:13:19 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on May 11, 2020, 10:38:42 AM

Quote from: dlsterner on April 27, 2020, 04:49:26 PM
Having travelled the access road to Clingman's Dome from US 441 in the Smoky Mountains, I was unaware that it crossed the NC/TN border several times on its way to the end.  I only found that out it did when setting up my Travel Mapping file.

There is also no line drawn into the Newfound Gap parking lot at the NC/TN state line on US 441.

https://goo.gl/maps/gVmXaWC851Xmp9Yp6

Mike

There used to be those wooden style National Park signs in the parking lot showing the border, with arrows pointing to the Tennessee and North Carolina sides. I may have a picture somewhere.

Is this what you're talking about?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49884151182_b94259a6f3_k.jpg)

Quote from: jakeroot on May 11, 2020, 02:19:49 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on May 11, 2020, 10:31:31 AM

Quote from: jakeroot on May 10, 2020, 08:52:12 PM
I think huge swaths of the BC/WA border, especially in suburban areas, is fairly indistinguishable. Apart from some fences, homes not facing each other, and the occasional obelisk.

Every road in these images is "0 Ave", the southern-most road in the Vancouver street grid and therefore not necessarily surprising that it would be the edge of Vancouver, but those not familiar with geography wouldn't necessarily assume that beyond 0 Ave is automatically another country. It just looks like more of what's already on the other side, or perhaps a park. Signs are fairly minimal:

(images snipped)

How does, for example, a parent retrieve a 2-3 YO kid who runs across that street without creating an international incident (ditto Canusa St at Derby Line, VT/Stanstead, QC)?

Probably best to just try and avoid that happening. Alternatively, don't let any border guards see it happen :-D.

I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2020, 02:47:54 PM
I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I'm not sure if the phrases "reasonable" and "border agent" belong in the same sentence together.
https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20030216/news/302169975

Quote from: vdeane on May 11, 2020, 03:14:27 PM

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2020, 02:47:54 PM
I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I'm not sure if the phrases "reasonable" and "border agent" belong in the same sentence together.
https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20030216/news/302169975

I hardly think that story is the same as a 3-year-old kid wandering across the street.  The driver didn't stop at customs and had a gun in the vehicle.

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2020, 02:47:54 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on May 11, 2020, 02:19:49 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on May 11, 2020, 10:31:31 AM

Quote from: jakeroot on May 10, 2020, 08:52:12 PM
I think huge swaths of the BC/WA border, especially in suburban areas, is fairly indistinguishable. Apart from some fences, homes not facing each other, and the occasional obelisk.

Every road in these images is "0 Ave", the southern-most road in the Vancouver street grid and therefore not necessarily surprising that it would be the edge of Vancouver, but those not familiar with geography wouldn't necessarily assume that beyond 0 Ave is automatically another country. It just looks like more of what's already on the other side, or perhaps a park. Signs are fairly minimal:

(images snipped)

How does, for example, a parent retrieve a 2-3 YO kid who runs across that street without creating an international incident (ditto Canusa St at Derby Line, VT/Stanstead, QC)?

Probably best to just try and avoid that happening. Alternatively, don't let any border guards see it happen :-D.

I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I did a fair amount of Googling before I posted my reply. The only thing close was a French citizen visiting family who jogged along the beach between White Rock, BC and Blaine, WA. She was held for two weeks (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/jogger-who-accidentally-crossed-u-s-border-from-b-c-detained-for-2-weeks-1.4717060). She didn't have identifying documents on her (though I don't when I run either), and was transported to Tacoma where her family had to assist her. She was eventually released back to Canada.

She was on a casual jog and was held for two weeks. I wouldn't screw around with the border.

Quote from: jakeroot on May 11, 2020, 03:56:30 PM

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2020, 02:47:54 PM

Quote from: jakeroot on May 11, 2020, 02:19:49 PM

Quote from: mgk920 on May 11, 2020, 10:31:31 AM

Quote from: jakeroot on May 10, 2020, 08:52:12 PM
I think huge swaths of the BC/WA border, especially in suburban areas, is fairly indistinguishable. Apart from some fences, homes not facing each other, and the occasional obelisk.

Every road in these images is "0 Ave", the southern-most road in the Vancouver street grid and therefore not necessarily surprising that it would be the edge of Vancouver, but those not familiar with geography wouldn't necessarily assume that beyond 0 Ave is automatically another country. It just looks like more of what's already on the other side, or perhaps a park. Signs are fairly minimal:

(images snipped)

How does, for example, a parent retrieve a 2-3 YO kid who runs across that street without creating an international incident (ditto Canusa St at Derby Line, VT/Stanstead, QC)?

Probably best to just try and avoid that happening. Alternatively, don't let any border guards see it happen :-D.

I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I did a fair amount of Googling before I posted my reply. The only thing close was a French citizen visiting family who jogged along the beach between White Rock, BC and Blaine, WA. She was held for two weeks (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/jogger-who-accidentally-crossed-u-s-border-from-b-c-detained-for-2-weeks-1.4717060). She didn't have identifying documents on her (though I don't when I run either), and was transported to Tacoma where her family had to assist her. She was eventually released back to Canada.

She was on a casual jog and was held for two weeks. I wouldn't screw around with the border.

I remember that story.

Do you leave your ID at home when jogging in the immediate vicinity of the border?

Given that she's from France and visiting Canada on holiday, she probably had no clue where the US—Canada border even was. And if she did, you don't need an ID to cross any of France's borders, so to her that question would be along the lines of "Do you leave your ID at home when jogging in the immediate vicinity of State Line Road in Kansas City?"

Quote from: Scott5114 on May 11, 2020, 04:37:10 PM
Given that she's from France and visiting Canada on holiday, she probably had no clue where the US—Canada border even was. And if she did, you don't need an ID to cross any of France's borders, so to her that question would be along the lines of "Do you leave your ID at home when jogging in the immediate vicinity of State Line Road in Kansas City?"

I'm not sure how anyone who had come through airport immigration in the USA could possibly think the borders here are anything like they are in the EU.

I forgot she was visiting Canada, not the USA.

Avenue 0 has become a pretty popular spot for family reunions during the pandemic shutdown, so I imagine the patrol right now is a bit heightened. If I recall, there are some other kinds of monitoring in the ditch, like pressure or infrared sensors.

https://bc.ctvnews.ca/families-meet-along-0-avenue-to-connect-across-the-border-1.4904645

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2020, 03:33:01 PM

Quote from: vdeane on May 11, 2020, 03:14:27 PM

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2020, 02:47:54 PM
I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I'm not sure if the phrases "reasonable" and "border agent" belong in the same sentence together.
https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20030216/news/302169975

I hardly think that story is the same as a 3-year-old kid wandering across the street.  The driver didn't stop at customs and had a gun in the vehicle.

Why should the driver have needed to stop at customs?  He was just getting gas and then going home.  That area is like Hyder but with logging roads.  Before 9/11 the border agents recognized the absurdity of the situation and didn't require it, but then the US became uber-paranoid and decided to start treating the Canadian border like the Mexican one.

He was doing nothing that the locals hadn't been doing for years/decades until customs decided to arbitrarily and with little/no warning decided to make a change for no good reason.

Quote from: vdeane on May 11, 2020, 09:58:21 PM
Why should the driver have needed to stop at customs?  He was just getting gas and then going home.  That area is like Hyder but with logging roads.  Before 9/11 the border agents recognized the absurdity of the situation and didn't require it, but then the US became uber-paranoid and decided to start treating the Canadian border like the Mexican one.

He was doing nothing that the locals hadn't been doing for years/decades until customs decided to arbitrarily and with little/no warning decided to make a change for no good reason.

I agree, it was absurd IMHO because he was doing what they had done there for years plus as I read it and from the way it looks on Google Earth, you can't even get to any other part of the U.S. from that gas station without doing some serious off-roading. But some people are more concerned with lines on a map rather than honoring how those border communities developed in the days long before formal border controls.

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2020, 03:33:01 PM
I hardly think that story is the same as a 3-year-old kid wandering across the street.  The driver didn't stop at customs and had a gun in the vehicle.

Have you looked at the area with Google Earth/Maps? It's not like they drive past U.S. border station to get to the gas station. The border station is 1/2 mile away at the gated entrance to a logging road. After checking in with them, you need to drive back into Canada to the gas station, then back in to the U.S. on the gas station's driveway.

The rules of when you have to report or don't need to report to CBP can be hard to keep straight. As I understand it, enter a building that span the border and you can cross the border to your heart's content inside but so long as you exit on the same side as you entered, there is no need to report. Likewise with the Peace Arch Park in Washington/B.C. (in the median of I-5/BC 99 between the border stations) - enter from either country, exit to the same country, and no need to report (I've been there).

Other oddities - take the White Pass & Yukon RR Summer Excursion out of Skagway, AK. The train enter Canada at the summit of White Pass, then after the locomotives run around the train to the other for the return, re-enters the United States. No border inspection by either country (passengers never get off the train in Canada but the train is on Canadian land).

As for boats, it seems so long as you don't dock in the other country, you can do whatever you want in the other country's waters. The BC ferries between Tsawwassen (Vancouver) and Swartz Bay (Victoria) are in U.S. waters almost as soon as they leave Tsawwassen but no U.S. border formalities. The Maid of the Mist at Niagara Falls goes across the border in the river but no formalities. And I was on a sightseeing boat out of Sault Ste. Marie, ON that went through the U.S. locks there (meaning we tied up to the lock but did not leave the boat) without any border formalities.

For planes, so long as you don't land, no formalities. U.S. domestic flights fly through Canadian airspace and Canadian domestic flights through U.S. airspace every day. And that's not just for commercial flights - back when I flew, I've flown through Canadian airspace while enroute between two U.S. points (the same Buffalo to north of Detroit that many commercial flights use) and even Mexican airspace (El Paso Departure took me into Mexican airspace while departing El Paso even though I was talking to U.S. air traffic controllers the whole time).

The crazy thing is when CBP and CBSA want to, they can do it. I have read that even in recent years, there will be in-bond buses run from Canada Place (Vancouver cruise terminal) to Seatac Airport (Seattle) so those passengers don't need to officially enter Canada and then re-enter the U.S. an hour later. So why they can't come up with reasonable policies for these border communities is a mystery.

I much preferred border crossings in Europe. When we took a train from Stockholm to Oslo a couple of years ago, our entry into Norway consisted of nothing more than the conductor announcing "Welcome to Norway".

Quote from: lstone19 on May 12, 2020, 12:31:28 AM
I much preferred border crossings in Europe. When we took a train from Stockholm to Oslo a couple of years ago, our entry into Norway consisted of nothing more than the conductor announcing "Welcome to Norway".

Europe hasn't always been like that.  When we took a train from Poland through the Czech Republic toward Austria, our entry into the Czech Republic consisted of pulling past the train station, armed soldiers with dogs coming on board, and our passports being taken off the train into the guard station while we waited for them to be returned.  Things have changed in the last 21 years.

(This is how I ended up with a Czech passport stamp without ever having set foot on Czech soil.)

Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2020, 01:02:28 PM

Quote from: lstone19 on May 12, 2020, 12:31:28 AM
I much preferred border crossings in Europe. When we took a train from Stockholm to Oslo a couple of years ago, our entry into Norway consisted of nothing more than the conductor announcing "Welcome to Norway".

Europe hasn't always been like that.  When we took a train from Poland through the Czech Republic toward Austria, our entry into the Czech Republic consisted of pulling past the train station, armed soldiers with dogs coming on board, and our passports being taken off the train into the guard station while we waited for them to be returned.  Things have changed in the last 21 years.

True but it is how things are today. Travel between two countries that are part of the Schengen agreement and you are exempt from Immigration (people) inspection. Travel between two countries that are part of the European Union and you are exempt from Customs (property) inspection. They're an overlapping but not identical set of countries.

In my example, Norway was Schengen but not EU so technically, a Customs inspection was required arriving in Noway. But as in most of Europe, Customs is something you're expected to take care of it applies. Most airports have separate green (Nothing to Declare) lines where you just walk on by Customs and red (Something to Declare) which frequently takes you into a Customs office. Not like in the U.S. and Canada where everyone is checked until the border agent is satisfied you really have nothing to declare.

Quote from: vdeane on May 11, 2020, 03:14:27 PM

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2020, 02:47:54 PM
I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I'm not sure if the phrases "reasonable" and "border agent" belong in the same sentence together.
https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20030216/news/302169975

A new president needs to sharply order the U.S. Border Patrol to cut wasteful crap like the above out.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 12, 2020, 01:22:49 PM

Quote from: vdeane on May 11, 2020, 03:14:27 PM

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2020, 02:47:54 PM
I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I'm not sure if the phrases "reasonable" and "border agent" belong in the same sentence together.
https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20030216/news/302169975

A new president needs to sharply order the U.S. Border Patrol to cut wasteful crap like the above out.

You're Biden your time waiting for the next election?

:bigass:

Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2020, 01:02:28 PM

Quote from: lstone19 on May 12, 2020, 12:31:28 AM
I much preferred border crossings in Europe. When we took a train from Stockholm to Oslo a couple of years ago, our entry into Norway consisted of nothing more than the conductor announcing "Welcome to Norway".

Europe hasn't always been like that.

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 12, 2020, 01:33:17 PM

Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 12, 2020, 01:22:49 PM

Quote from: vdeane on May 11, 2020, 03:14:27 PM

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2020, 02:47:54 PM
I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I'm not sure if the phrases "reasonable" and "border agent" belong in the same sentence together.
https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20030216/news/302169975

A new president needs to sharply order the U.S. Border Patrol to cut wasteful crap like the above out.

You're Biden your time waiting for the next election?

:bigass:

Waiting for any mature adult. 

Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 13, 2020, 01:45:31 AM
Waiting for any mature adult. 

In the race for President?  You might have to wait quite a while.

Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 12, 2020, 01:22:49 PM

Quote from: vdeane on May 11, 2020, 03:14:27 PM

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2020, 02:47:54 PM
I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I'm not sure if the phrases "reasonable" and "border agent" belong in the same sentence together.
https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20030216/news/302169975

A new president needs to sharply order the U.S. Border Patrol to cut wasteful crap like the above out.

After reading down into the story, I looked back up at the date. This is an ancient story; surely things in that location aren't as goofed up as they were then.

Quote from: hbelkins on May 13, 2020, 03:27:43 PM

Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 12, 2020, 01:22:49 PM

Quote from: vdeane on May 11, 2020, 03:14:27 PM

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2020, 02:47:54 PM
I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I'm not sure if the phrases "reasonable" and "border agent" belong in the same sentence together.
https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20030216/news/302169975

A new president needs to sharply order the U.S. Border Patrol to cut wasteful crap like the above out.

After reading down into the story, I looked back up at the date. This is an ancient story; surely things in that location aren't as goofed up as they were then.

Atlas Obscura ran an article in 2016 about Estcourt Station, seems things had not changed much there: The Incredible Complications of Living Atop the U.S.-Canada Border (https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-incredible-complications-of-living-atop-the-us-canada-border)

Quote from: hbelkins on May 13, 2020, 03:27:43 PM

Quote from: cpzilliacus on May 12, 2020, 01:22:49 PM

Quote from: vdeane on May 11, 2020, 03:14:27 PM

Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2020, 02:47:54 PM
I find it difficult to believe any reasonable border agent would make an incident out of it.

I'm not sure if the phrases "reasonable" and "border agent" belong in the same sentence together.
https://www.seacoastonline.com/article/20030216/news/302169975

A new president needs to sharply order the U.S. Border Patrol to cut wasteful crap like the above out.

After reading down into the story, I looked back up at the date. This is an ancient story; surely things in that location aren't as goofed up as they were then.

Google shows that gas station as "permanently closed".

Figures.  It's not legally possible to use it outside of the hours the border station is open, which is no doubt not good for profits, and with non-essential travel across the border banned, it was probably enough to push it under.  Customs probably said "good riddance".

I lived in Janesville, WI for many years and occasionally went to Beloit for various things. I always thought it was odd how Beloit (Wis) just kinda morphed into South Beloit (Illinois) without much fanfare.

I imaging the state border running through Kansas City is a bit weird like that too, based on google maps images I've seen.

Quote from: mrose on May 14, 2020, 03:32:54 AM
I lived in Janesville, WI for many years and occasionally went to Beloit for various things. I always thought it was odd how Beloit (Wis) just kinda morphed into South Beloit (Illinois) without much fanfare.

I imaging the state border running through Kansas City is a bit weird like that too, based on google maps images I've seen.

In the downtown Beloit area, the McD's is in Beloit, WI while the grocery store that is next door to the south is in South Beloit, IL.  The line is not marked and runs through the grocery store's parking lot.

Mike

Take a look at the SE border of RI and MA :bigass:

Quote from: mgk920 on May 14, 2020, 05:44:45 PM

Quote from: mrose on May 14, 2020, 03:32:54 AM
I lived in Janesville, WI for many years and occasionally went to Beloit for various things. I always thought it was odd how Beloit (Wis) just kinda morphed into South Beloit (Illinois) without much fanfare.

I imaging the state border running through Kansas City is a bit weird like that too, based on google maps images I've seen.

In the downtown Beloit area, the McD's is in Beloit, WI while the grocery store that is next door to the south is in South Beloit, IL.  The line is not marked and runs through the grocery store's parking lot.

Mike

The hospital where my wife works has most of the parking lot in a different state.

I know the OP said to not to look at Europe, but I do think that this monstrosity of borders, enclaves, and enclaves within enclaves between Belgium and the Netherlands (https://www.google.pl/maps/@51.4393391,4.9339783,14.76z) is nonetheless worthy of mention.

(https://i.imgur.com/zWR15Vf.png)

Getting back to the US, none of the borders in the area near the Downstream Casino (https://www.google.pl/maps/@36.9985542,-94.6235769,1283m/data=!3m1!1e3) in Oklahoma/ Kansas/Missouri are particularly well marked.

(https://i.imgur.com/L4bWIda.png)

Good thing that those two countries are *at peace*!

:-o

Anyways, the Nevada-Utah state line at Wendover, UT/West Wendover, NV is right tight to two casino resort buildings that are on either side of old US 40, just off of I-80, less than one meter inside of Nevada.  Their concourses, entrance canopies and main parking facilities are in Utah.

There was a serious proposal a few years ago to redraw the state line there to transfer the Wendover, UT area to Nevada and the Utah state legislature was on board with the idea.  Wendover is a very isolated and economically depressed part of the state and Congress would almost certainly have followed suit (see: Constitution of the United States of America, Article. IV., Section. 3. for the details of this process).  HOWEVER, the Nevada state legislature was opposed.  The casino industry throws a LOT of lobbying weight around in Carson City and the operators of those two resorts were in no mood to see the possibility of more resorts being developed between them and the Salt Lake City metro area.

Mike

How about borders between tribal and non-tribal lands?  In St. Ignace MI, the border was so indistinguishable that they built the casino on the wrong side of the line.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/14927042/ns/us_news-weird_news/t/casino-has-everything-except-gambling/#.Xr6MLmhKiUk

Quote from: GaryV on May 15, 2020, 08:35:40 AM
How about borders between tribal and non-tribal lands?  In St. Ignace MI, the border was so indistinguishable that they built the casino on the wrong side of the line.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/14927042/ns/us_news-weird_news/t/casino-has-everything-except-gambling/#.Xr6MLmhKiUk

I remember that. Not far from Castle Rock.

Quote from: vdeane on May 13, 2020, 08:06:27 PM
Figures.  It's not legally possible to use it outside of the hours the border station is open, which is no doubt not good for profits, and with non-essential travel across the border banned, it was probably enough to push it under.  Customs probably said "good riddance".

If you look at the article cpzilliacus linked, a Canadian customs agent said the Americans living in Estcourt Station are required to get home by a certain time on Friday and then are not permitted to leave home again until Monday because they're not allowed to go out and cross the border during the hours when the Customs station is closed. That's ridiculous. It makes you wonder why they can't do something practical like have a videophone system comparable to the one used for the Northeast Angle in Minnesota.

Quote from: cabiness42 on May 14, 2020, 08:48:11 PM
The hospital where my wife works has most of the parking lot in a different state.

The hospital for Bristol VA/TN once was on the state line, with an 80-bed wing in Virginia and the 337 beds in the rest of the hospital in Tennessee. It later moved to a new facility entirely in Tennessee, with only the Tennessee-licensed beds, surrendering its license for the 80 beds that had been in Virginia. Probably not the dominant reason for the move (the new facility is newer and has better Interstate access), but it was a PITA for the hospital to comply with two states' regulations.

At one point, Bristol also had a nursing home bisected by the state line. I don't know if it's still there.

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2020, 11:21:45 AM

Quote from: vdeane on May 13, 2020, 08:06:27 PM
Figures.  It's not legally possible to use it outside of the hours the border station is open, which is no doubt not good for profits, and with non-essential travel across the border banned, it was probably enough to push it under.  Customs probably said "good riddance".

If you look at the article cpzilliacus linked, a Canadian customs agent said the Americans living in Estcourt Station are required to get home by a certain time on Friday and then are not permitted to leave home again until Monday because they're not allowed to go out and cross the border during the hours when the Customs station is closed. That's ridiculous. It makes you wonder why they can't do something practical like have a videophone system comparable to the one used for the Northeast Angle in Minnesota.

We have exactly zero logic when dealing with the Canadian border. US Customs and Border Patrol have to justify their existence and overreact. Our policy should be to have a Schengen-style agreement to allow noncommercial traffic and people to traverse between the two countries unmolested. Unfortunately, our political will (of both parties, and now during COVID19 even Canada) seems to be moving to tighter controls, not looser.

Quote from: zzcarp on May 15, 2020, 11:47:12 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on May 15, 2020, 11:21:45 AM

Quote from: vdeane on May 13, 2020, 08:06:27 PM
Figures.  It's not legally possible to use it outside of the hours the border station is open, which is no doubt not good for profits, and with non-essential travel across the border banned, it was probably enough to push it under.  Customs probably said "good riddance".

If you look at the article cpzilliacus linked, a Canadian customs agent said the Americans living in Estcourt Station are required to get home by a certain time on Friday and then are not permitted to leave home again until Monday because they're not allowed to go out and cross the border during the hours when the Customs station is closed. That's ridiculous. It makes you wonder why they can't do something practical like have a videophone system comparable to the one used for the Northeast Angle in Minnesota.

We have exactly zero logic when dealing with the Canadian border. US Customs and Border Patrol have to justify their existence and overreact. Our policy should be to have a Schengen-style agreement to allow noncommercial traffic and people to traverse between the two countries unmolested. Unfortunately, our political will (of both parties, and now during COVID19 even Canada) seems to be moving to tighter controls, not looser.

I agree although if there can't be a Schengen-type agreement for all in Canada and the U.S., there should be at least some special agreements for these border areas where communities span the border which allows them to go back and forth without checking in provided they don't leave a defined area around the community. Maybe that way, people living on Canusa St. could talk to their neighbors across the street without breaking the law.

In the case of Estcourt, as I see it on Google Earth, the U.S. border station is 1/2 mile away from that gas station. So to go that station, someone would need to check in with US CBP, then return to Canada (and check in with CBSA?), go the gas station, and then return to Canada again (and check in with CBSA a 2nd time?).

It's not as if they don't already do similar. Having worked for an airline, I am aware that our customer service employees routinely "cross the border" to greet an international arrival without they themselves having to formally re-enter the U.S.. And at airports with exit controls (true in the Schengen area as well as others), they work the departure without being considered to have left even though they're working with passengers who have officially left the country (and as part of my job, I made some foreign station visits where as part of observing operations, would be in the non-Schengen area of the airport without having officially left and then re-entering the Schengen area).

But for some reason, the idea of treating these split communities as one community with free passage goes nowhere in the U.S. and Canada (probably because so few people relative to the entire population are affected it's not worth it to a politician).

This is not about highways.

Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on May 15, 2020, 12:40:22 PM
This is not about highways.

And your problem with this is....

Quote from: Brandon on May 15, 2020, 12:46:59 PM

Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on May 15, 2020, 12:40:22 PM
This is not about highways.

And your problem with this is....

Doesn't belong in General Highway Talk. And even if it were about highways in the beginning, it has since strayed into international politics.

Another area where this is an issue is the Akwesasne Reservation, which is bisected by the border.  There's a peninsula and a pseudo-peninsula in Québec where the border is freely open due to not having access to the rest of Canada, but the same is not true of Cornwall Island in Ontario.  Additionally, due to a dispute between the residents and CBSA, the Canadian customs was moved to the mainland, but people still have to report (even though a treaty is supposed to guarantee their right to travel freely).  This means that someone driving from the New York side to Cornwall Island has to go all the way to the mainland, pay the $3 bridge toll, clear Canadian customs, turn around, pay the $3 bridge toll again, and then finally go to their destination.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 14, 2020, 10:51:19 PM
I know the OP said to not to look at Europe, but I do think that this monstrosity of borders, enclaves, and enclaves within enclaves between Belgium and the Netherlands (https://www.google.pl/maps/@51.4393391,4.9339783,14.76z) is nonetheless worthy of mention.

(https://i.imgur.com/zWR15Vf.png)

I can only imagine how bad that would be if those countries took a US-style approach to border security.  It really only works because they have no border controls between each other.

These US/Canadian border communities should have a special arrangement similar to the fronterizo zone of Mexico.  There, as long as you're within that zone, even though you still need a passport, you don't need any other papers.  You can, for example, drive from Laredo into Nuevo Laredo with a passport and short-term Mexican car insurance policy, and not have to stop at the customs office at all when crossing the border (unless you get a red light for search, but in that case the only document they ask for is your passport).  It's only if you drive farther south that you and your car have to have papers.

(Crossing back northbound, of course, is a different deal, but that's just because CBP stops every person every time.  If they didn't do that, would a person still be required to check in of his own accord?  I think that might be true, as that's my understanding of how the Boquillas crossing works.)

What bugs me more about this is how closely they watch the Estcourt Station scenarios, more like CBP wants "gotchas"  over common sense.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 15, 2020, 01:48:29 PM
What bugs me more about this is how closely they watch the Estcourt Station scenarios, more like CBP wants "gotchas"  over common sense.

The counter-argument, I suppose...

In a town where people are allowed to freely come and go across the border, it would be especially easy for non-residents to sneak across the border as well.  Places like Escourt Station would therefore need closer monitoring.

Of course, I say that's baloney, because where would one even go from there into Maine?  It's... ummm... rather remote.

Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on May 15, 2020, 12:55:56 PM

Quote from: Brandon on May 15, 2020, 12:46:59 PM

Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on May 15, 2020, 12:40:22 PM
This is not about highways.

And your problem with this is....

Doesn't belong in General Highway Talk. And even if it were about highways in the beginning, it has since strayed into international politics.

You do realize that this comes with the territory of "borders"?

Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on May 15, 2020, 12:55:56 PM

Quote from: Brandon on May 15, 2020, 12:46:59 PM

Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on May 15, 2020, 12:40:22 PM
This is not about highways.

And your problem with this is....

Doesn't belong in General Highway Talk. And even if it were about highways in the beginning, it has since strayed into international politics.

OK, let's get back to the main question, then:

What's the best place to get cheap American gas when driving QC-289 through Pohenegamook?

I'd probably stop at Escourt Station ...  :bigass:

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on April 27, 2020, 03:00:39 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on April 27, 2020, 02:50:50 PM

Quote from: AlexandriaVA on April 27, 2020, 02:31:54 PM
@Hoo-

Virginia into DC is a case of a geographic feature being a plausible boundary crossing, since a major river is involved.

....

But there is one area where the river is not really a "plausible geographic" thing–the crossings between Virginia and Columbia Island. None of those are marked as to DC/Virginia and for a couple of them you don't even notice you're crossing a waterway (Boundary Channel).

That's a real good one actually. You can tell from my previous post that I sort-of overlooked it myself (and I'm a lifer).

At least on the Key Bride, the signage is correct, insofar as the "Welcome to DC" sign is on the Rosslyn side of the bridge, not Georgetown.

The DC sign from the Key Bridge, as it looked on May 29, 2015:
(https://i.imgur.com/GSprRXQ.jpg)

I liked my stay at the Border Inn at the NV/UT border on US 6/US 50.

The Aroostook Valley Golf & Country Club and Pro-shop are in New Brunswick but the access road and parking lot are in the State of Maine....... and with the US/Canada border remaining closed until the end of June at least.... it's causing a conundrum for those who want to golf now that New Brunswick is starting to reopen.

https://goo.gl/maps/B4QrrAip9BXWzeLk9

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/aroostook-golf-course-covid-19-border-restrictions-1.5576311

But I don't think New Brunswick is in any rush to reopen its borders. They were early to lock down even the inter-provincial borders with Quebec, Nova Scotia and PEI.....and it seems to have paid off as they only had 120 Covid cases total (all now resolved) and no deaths.

Between Monroe County, MI & Lucas County, OH, the only roads marked with state signs are state & Federal Hwys like I-75, US-24 & M-125.  On local roads, the only way you would know is the Toledo or Sylvania city limit signs driving southbound.

I've hardly ever crossed a state line on a county road where there was a sign.