https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bottomridge-Dr-Metal-Transportation-Street-Road-Sign-Green-White-36-X-6/303513606470?hash=item46aad21946:g:-ngAAOSwBVZea67K (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bottomridge-Dr-Metal-Transportation-Street-Road-Sign-Green-White-36-X-6/303513606470?hash=item46aad21946:g:-ngAAOSwBVZea67K)
That's the same rule they use on the electronic stop name displays inside Pierce Transit buses and PT-operated Sound Transit coaches.
Oh, ouch. That was mildly painful.
Yikes, no thank you. Even if that was in the correct font, that would be a hard pass from me.
Which is worse? (https://goo.gl/maps/PvNHytqDQuC1fcLV8)
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2020, 01:22:44 PM
Which is worse? (https://goo.gl/maps/PvNHytqDQuC1fcLV8)
Yours. The lowercase letter looks like a capital letter.
That sign is re listed on Ebay. Anyway I stole the photo from them.
(https://i.imgur.com/8ejjCQ0.jpg)
Hazel Park, MI: Madɢe (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4538746,-83.1031768,3a,75y,320.09h,80.77t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqrIiDY2qyOUvUVZmD4yPZg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DqrIiDY2qyOUvUVZmD4yPZg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D253.9379%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) Evelʏn (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4530943,-83.1034325,3a,75y,175.93h,87.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7BEpwGthgW1YejfZ-ocYDA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) Maᴘledale (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4724827,-83.1046173,3a,75y,202.38h,68.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syUJrIOTF917rNsXVIMqSeg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Bottomridɢe Dr. appears to be a fluke. There's a Bottomridge Dr in Lakeside, FL, which clicking around appears to use mixed case Arial but with proper lowercase descenders.
The danglers are: g, j, p,q, y
I'm not understanding why these letters cannot simply be written in their current form, but just simply shifted up to avoid dangling.
So while p and q do dangle, why not just write them as backwards d and b without danging and without reverting to their capital form. A j can be formed by adding a tail to an i. A capital Y looks like a lower case y without dangling. A g can be made by adding a tail to the new q.
Or 'ALL CAPS' can be used, thereby avoiding the issue entirely. Anyone who believes the signs are YELLING at them can go pound sand.
Quote from: renegade on May 24, 2020, 11:12:39 AM
Or 'ALL CAPS' can be used, thereby avoiding the issue entirely. Anyone who believes the signs are YELLING at them can go pound sand.
It's not that. I believe FHWA is requiring all new road signs to be mixed case.
Quote from: mrsman on May 24, 2020, 10:53:00 AM
The danglers are: g, j, p,q, y
I'm not understanding why these letters cannot simply be written in their current form, but just simply shifted up to avoid dangling.
So while p and q do dangle, why not just write them as backwards d and b without danging and without reverting to their capital form. A j can be formed by adding a tail to an i. A capital Y looks like a lower case y without dangling. A g can be made by adding a tail to the new q.
I have seen signs where the individual danglers are shifted up. Looks a little odd, but less so than throwing in a capital letter instead.
Not fully following your thoughts on alternative letter forms for dangling letters... However, another thought is to use a slightly larger sign (either in every case, or just for signs with danglers) and then you don't need any modification to sign layouts. Or shift the baseline up a bit on the sign to fit in the dangler.
Quote from: mrsman on May 24, 2020, 11:18:31 AM
Quote from: renegade on May 24, 2020, 11:12:39 AM
Or 'ALL CAPS' can be used, thereby avoiding the issue entirely. Anyone who believes the signs are YELLING at them can go pound sand.
It's not that. I believe FHWA is requiring all new road signs to be mixed case.
Yes, MUTCD requires all new street name signs to use mixed case.
Quote from: roadfro on May 24, 2020, 01:11:10 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 24, 2020, 10:53:00 AM
The danglers are: g, j, p,q, y
I'm not understanding why these letters cannot simply be written in their current form, but just simply shifted up to avoid dangling.
So while p and q do dangle, why not just write them as backwards d and b without danging and without reverting to their capital form. A j can be formed by adding a tail to an i. A capital Y looks like a lower case y without dangling. A g can be made by adding a tail to the new q.
I have seen signs where the individual danglers are shifted up. Looks a little odd, but less so than throwing in a capital letter instead.
Not fully following your thoughts on alternative letter forms for dangling letters... However, another thought is to use a slightly larger sign (either in every case, or just for signs with danglers) and then you don't need any modification to sign layouts. Or shift the baseline up a bit on the sign to fit in the dangler.
I was merely pointing out that the letters can be easily made without dangling. To the extent that letters look like inverses of other letters that don't dangle. Yes, merely shifting the letters upward should be enough, if the sign leaves little room for dangling. And I agree that adding a G or J is ridiculous when meaning G or J.
Quote from: mrsman on May 24, 2020, 11:18:31 AM
Quote from: renegade on May 24, 2020, 11:12:39 AM
Or 'ALL CAPS' can be used, thereby avoiding the issue entirely. Anyone who believes the signs are YELLING at them can go pound sand.
It's not that. I believe FHWA is requiring all new road signs to be mixed case.
Yes, MUTCD requires all new street name signs to use mixed case.
[/quote]
Quote from: mrsman on May 24, 2020, 10:53:00 AM
The danglers are: g, j, p,q, y
I'm not understanding why these letters cannot simply be written in their current form, but just simply shifted up to avoid dangling.
So while p and q do dangle, why not just write them as backwards d and b without danging and without reverting to their capital form. A j can be formed by adding a tail to an i. A capital Y looks like a lower case y without dangling. A g can be made by adding a tail to the new q.
Did you mean something like this?
(https://i.imgur.com/5bQCJJf.png)
That would work, I guess, as far as descenders go. Given, however, that the reason the MUTCD requires mixed case letters is to increase legibility and that that increase comes in no small part from the distinctive shapes of ascenders and descenders, I don't think this is the way to go.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 24, 2020, 03:12:35 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 24, 2020, 10:53:00 AM
The danglers are: g, j, p,q, y
I'm not understanding why these letters cannot simply be written in their current form, but just simply shifted up to avoid dangling.
So while p and q do dangle, why not just write them as backwards d and b without danging and without reverting to their capital form. A j can be formed by adding a tail to an i. A capital Y looks like a lower case y without dangling. A g can be made by adding a tail to the new q.
Did you mean something like this?
(https://i.imgur.com/5bQCJJf.png)
That would work, I guess, as far as descenders go. Given, however, that the reason the MUTCD requires mixed case letters is to increase legibility and that that increase comes in no small part from the distinctive shapes of ascenders and descenders, I don't think this is the way to go.
Ideally, yes, we would have the 5 descender letters actually descend below the line is best. But where there is no room, it is far better to have the sign above than BottomridGe, which is inane.
The older style of pole-mounted signs in Ankeny, Iowa, display the main thoroughfare (US 69) as "AnKenY Blvd, as seen here (https://goo.gl/maps/ckHnrSmE3TpyfYZv8), and keeps the last two uppercase letters the same size as the lowercase ones surrounding them. I suppose that takes care of both the danglers and the... tall ones?
Oddly enough, all other signs from the same era don't do this - just AnKenY Blvd.
Thankfully, all the newer signs have stopped doing this.
Just stop being so damn cheap and make the sign as big as it needs to be. MUTCD says the size of a sign is determined by the legend, not the other way around. If the legend doesn't fit on the panel, you make the panel bigger, you don't mess with the text.
Quote from: mrsman on May 24, 2020, 11:18:31 AM
Quote from: renegade on May 24, 2020, 11:12:39 AM
Or 'ALL CAPS' can be used, thereby avoiding the issue entirely. Anyone who believes the signs are YELLING at them can go pound sand.
It's not that. I believe FHWA is requiring all new road signs to be mixed case.
Right. Because federal agencies are never wrong.
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 04, 2020, 02:03:51 PM
Just stop being so damn cheap and make the sign as big as it needs to be. MUTCD says the size of a sign is determined by the legend, not the other way around. If the legend doesn't fit on the panel, you make the panel bigger, you don't mess with the text.
Many people on here believe the APLs are too big, constantly complaining about the cost. The amount of money spent on items not visible to us is incredibly large, and yet many focus their attention at the relative pennies spent on visible things like bigger green signs.
Quote from: RX78NT-1 on June 04, 2020, 12:47:50 PM
The older style of pole-mounted signs in Ankeny, Iowa, display the main thoroughfare (US 69) as "AnKenY Blvd, as seen here (https://goo.gl/maps/ckHnrSmE3TpyfYZv8), and keeps the last two uppercase letters the same size as the lowercase ones surrounding them. I suppose that takes care of both the danglers and the... tall ones?
Oddly enough, all other signs from the same era don't do this - just AnKenY Blvd.
Thankfully, all the newer signs have stopped doing this.
They seem to have had no problem with the lower case L and D in Blvd being ascenders. So why the K?
Quote from: renegade on June 04, 2020, 03:04:08 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 24, 2020, 11:18:31 AM
Quote from: renegade on May 24, 2020, 11:12:39 AM
Or 'ALL CAPS' can be used, thereby avoiding the issue entirely. Anyone who believes the signs are YELLING at them can go pound sand.
It's not that. I believe FHWA is requiring all new road signs to be mixed case.
Right. Because federal agencies are never wrong.
It actually has to do with the speed of word recognition. It's easier to discern letter shapes in mixed case legend versus all-caps legend.
Quote from: renegade on June 04, 2020, 03:04:08 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 24, 2020, 11:18:31 AM
Quote from: renegade on May 24, 2020, 11:12:39 AM
Or 'ALL CAPS' can be used, thereby avoiding the issue entirely. Anyone who believes the signs are YELLING at them can go pound sand.
It's not that. I believe FHWA is requiring all new road signs to be mixed case.
Right. Because federal agencies are never wrong.
Okay, who's spent more time and money researching road sign legibility, you or FHWA?
Quote from: machias on June 07, 2020, 11:29:36 AM
Quote from: renegade on June 04, 2020, 03:04:08 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 24, 2020, 11:18:31 AM
Quote from: renegade on May 24, 2020, 11:12:39 AM
Or 'ALL CAPS' can be used, thereby avoiding the issue entirely. Anyone who believes the signs are YELLING at them can go pound sand.
It's not that. I believe FHWA is requiring all new road signs to be mixed case.
Right. Because federal agencies are never wrong.
It actually has to do with the speed of word recognition. It's easier to discern letter shapes in mixed case legend versus all-caps legend.
Very much agree. When the letters are blocky and all the same height, you have to be closer before you can distinguish them.
Quote from: machias on June 07, 2020, 11:29:36 AMIt actually has to do with the speed of word recognition. It's easier to discern letter shapes in mixed case legend versus all-caps legend.
So improperly-dangled letters don't add to the confusion?
Quote from: renegade on June 08, 2020, 02:27:06 PM
Quote from: machias on June 07, 2020, 11:29:36 AMIt actually has to do with the speed of word recognition. It's easier to discern letter shapes in mixed case legend versus all-caps legend.
So improperly-dangled letters don't add to the confusion?
I would say they do. However, I would speculate that improperly-dangled letters in a mixed-case word are still easier to discern from a distance than an all upper-case legend.