https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/05/15/jc-penney-bankruptcy-store-closings-coronavirus-closures-chapter-11/3057838001/ (https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2020/05/15/jc-penney-bankruptcy-store-closings-coronavirus-closures-chapter-11/3057838001/)
I would consider this pandemic a final nail in the coffin for them.
Probably the first of many to come. Definitely "the straw that broke the camel's back" example with this one.
Quote
But its fall from grace started around the time that Americans began embracing online retail for apparel purchases. When mall foot traffic began to drop off, J.C. Penney encountered turbulence.
I still want to know who is embracing online retail for apparel purchases. I will never, ever buy something new that I haven't tried on in person. Finding stuff that fits, is affordable, and is good quality is very, very hard (at least for women... men likely have fewer challenges on that front). Besides, who wants to pay for shipping and wait for an item to arrive? Granted, I don't do fast fashion. I'm the type to buy clothes once and then expect them to last 5-10 years, and I insist on everything being machine wash and dryable ("hand wash only" is ridiculously common for women's clothing).
Why is it that places I like to shop inevitably end up going bankrupt? First Payless and now JCPenney. Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.
I have been buying clothes online. Got a bunch of dress shirts and just got a pair of khakis.
Everything fits and is fine.
Quote from: vdeane on May 15, 2020, 09:14:29 PM
Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.
This is so true. Around Boston it's just Walmart, Bob's Stores, Target, followed by a cadre of mall/lifestyle center crap meant for the beautiful people.
The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 16, 2020, 05:56:53 AM
The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.
They still build the $150,000 houses, they just now sell for $300,000 - $500,000. To some extent, older homes are higher quality than a lot of the cheaper builds that are seen in cookie cutter construction in modern day.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 16, 2020, 05:56:53 AM
The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.
The median home price in the United States is about $248,000. That is the definition of middle class.
Quote from: vdeane on May 15, 2020, 09:14:29 PM
Quote
But its fall from grace started around the time that Americans began embracing online retail for apparel purchases. When mall foot traffic began to drop off, J.C. Penney encountered turbulence.
I still want to know who is embracing online retail for apparel purchases. I will never, ever buy something new that I haven't tried on in person. Finding stuff that fits, is affordable, and is good quality is very, very hard (at least for women... men likely have fewer challenges on that front). Besides, who wants to pay for shipping and wait for an item to arrive? Granted, I don't do fast fashion. I'm the type to buy clothes once and then expect them to last 5-10 years, and I insist on everything being machine wash and dryable ("hand wash only" is ridiculously common for women's clothing).
Why is it that places I like to shop inevitably end up going bankrupt? First Payless and now JCPenney. Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.
The middle class are shopping online.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 16, 2020, 07:59:50 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 16, 2020, 05:56:53 AM
The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.
The median home price in the United States is about $248,000. That is the definition of middle class.
Where I'm at, middle class housing is in the $120,000—$150,000 range for a three-bedroom. The $250,000 houses are basically small McMansions.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 16, 2020, 07:49:27 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 16, 2020, 05:56:53 AM
The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.
They still build the $150,000 houses, they just now sell for $300,000 - $500,000. To some extent, older homes are higher quality than a lot of the cheaper builds that are seen in cookie cutter construction in modern day.
Not disputing that at all. I have a house that was built in 1976. Not too long after we bought it, we needed to replace the p-trap under one of the toilets. It took the plumbers the better part of a day to punch through the slab because it was obnoxiously thick.
We started looking for a house in January 2017 and didn't close on this one until May, because there were far, far more people looking for houses in our price range than there were houses to buy. We literally had one house go under contract from another buyer
while we were touring it. But the developers keep on blithely building $300,000 houses. I guess someone's buying them, but if the free market was as good as everyone says it is, someone should be swooping in to meet the demand. I haven't seen it happen.
Penney's ruined themselves years ago when they tried for a makeover targeted to younger people. It failed miserably. It only succeeded in alienating its existing clientele and didn't attract new clients like they wanted. When they tried to reverse course several years later, it was too late. I'm surprised they've been able to hang on as long as they did, considering Montgomery Wards exited at about that same time. Also, they downplayed their catalog division - does it even still exist now? Kind of ironic, seeing as it could have been an online life support for them in these times.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 16, 2020, 08:06:18 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 16, 2020, 07:59:50 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 16, 2020, 05:56:53 AM
The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.
The median home price in the United States is about $248,000. That is the definition of middle class.
Where I'm at, middle class housing is in the $120,000—$150,000 range for a three-bedroom. The $250,000 houses are basically small McMansions.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 16, 2020, 07:49:27 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 16, 2020, 05:56:53 AM
The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.
They still build the $150,000 houses, they just now sell for $300,000 - $500,000. To some extent, older homes are higher quality than a lot of the cheaper builds that are seen in cookie cutter construction in modern day.
Not disputing that at all. I have a house that was built in 1976. Not too long after we bought it, we needed to replace the p-trap under one of the toilets. It took the plumbers the better part of a day to punch through the slab because it was obnoxiously thick.
We started looking for a house in January 2017 and didn't close on this one until May, because there were far, far more people looking for houses in our price range than there were houses to buy. We literally had one house go under contract from another buyer while we were touring it. But the developers keep on blithely building $300,000 houses. I guess someone's buying them, but if the free market was as good as everyone says it is, someone should be swooping in to meet the demand. I haven't seen it happen.
Where I live, a $250,000 house is a pretty solid middle class home. Not a starter home by any means, but hardly a McMansion. The second house I ever owned I bought for $260,000 fifteen years ago, and while it was nice, it was a pretty standard raised ranch.
The reason that builders build higher end homes is due to profit margin. So building something pricier, that sits empty for a couple of additional months, is more worth it for them than a starter home that sells immediately.
As to clothing, I just do not buy business or dress clothes anymore, as I am in the twilight of my working life and pretty much plan to ride it out with the stuff on hand. I have no problem buying more casual clothes (I mostly wear sweat suits/jogging outfits when not working), just based on sizes. But I would have a hard time buying a suit on line.
In Charleston, WV, the state capitol (not just politically, but where all the lawyers and accountants and MBAs that run things are) there is now a Men's Wearhouse and two four figure per suit hand tailors, and that is it. Probably 30 places to buy suits 15 years ago.
Back in 2015-2016, for the clothes that I buy (typically IZOD), Amazon was still typically more expensive than JCPenney if you were able to take advantage of JCPenney's coupons and Ship to Store option. However, fast forward to 2020, and now Amazon tends to be more price competitive, even when comparing JCPenney's coupon prices. JCPenney is just not friendly towards online shoppers. Even Kohl's tends to be more friendly towards online shoppers than JCPenney it seems like, and in recent years I have bought more from Kohl's than I have from JCPenney.
Also, Amazon tends to carry merchandise from past collections for much longer than JCPenney.
It's easy to buy business shirts online because the two measurements that matter are neck and sleeve and I just make sure it's not a "slim fit" (or similar description). I've ordered a lot of shirts from a company in London and they always fit quite well. I don't need as many as I used to, though, because I telecommute even without the pandemic. We don't have webcams on our laptops for IT security reasons, so I don't need to worry about dressing for videoconferences or the like.
Socks are another thing that are easy to get online. Trousers, though, no thanks. I did order two pairs of LL Bean jeans online (types the store at Tysons doesn't carry), but anything more formal than that is likely to be something I want to try on, and I cannot imagine ordering a suit online if I have to buy another one. I don't fit into the sartorial standard sizes and I have to buy "suit separates" for it to fit unless and until I lose some weight.
I pretty much have to buy clothing online, due to cost and availability. Even though I've lost some weight, and clothes (particularly pants) that fit are easier to find, I still have difficulty commonly finding affordable khakis for work that fit. Usually, a shirt's a shirt, but I like to try on pants for the most part. I've had some luck ordering from Walmart and Amazon, but with the latter, you have to look for bargains. The prices seem to change daily. I held off buying some pants and the price went down significantly. I probably should go ahead and order them before it goes back up. I'm having to buy a bunch of new pants because my waistline is significantly smaller than it was a year ago, when I scored a great buy on khakis from Walmart that fit at the time.
What I tended to do was buy something from Penney, and if it fit well, order more online.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 16, 2020, 08:06:18 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 16, 2020, 07:59:50 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 16, 2020, 05:56:53 AM
The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.
The median home price in the United States is about $248,000. That is the definition of middle class.
Where I'm at, middle class housing is in the $120,000—$150,000 range for a three-bedroom. The $250,000 houses are basically small McMansions.
Similar here, but that's on the lower end of the scale nationally, especially for a decent-sized metro area.
One thing that might be part of the issue is the fashion calendar. Fashion companies want to push out spring/summer clothes in January and fall/winter clothes in July (or even earlier for both), but is that really what modern consumers want, or do modern consumers want to buy what is appropriate for the weather? With online shopping you can buy clothes for any season year-round.
Well looks like JC Penney is beaten Sears to the finish. Another thread had someone state that those two werw in a running for closing. Now the race is over.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 16, 2020, 07:59:50 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 16, 2020, 05:56:53 AM
The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.
The median home price in the United States is about $248,000. That is the definition of middle class.
That's indicative of what's being marketed to the middle class, not what they can comfortably afford.
Quote from: Rothman on May 16, 2020, 12:13:54 AM
I have been buying clothes online. Got a bunch of dress shirts and just got a pair of khakis.
Everything fits and is fine.
Men have it a LOT easier. Not only are the sizes actually standardized, but there are fewer measurements to worry about since women tend to be more curvy. As a result, short of having every article of clothing tailor-made, it's practically impossible to buy an article of women's clothing that 100% fits just right.
It gets worse if your body shape is a bit non-standard. For example, I have short legs and a long torso. Recently, I had to buy new pants for the office. In the past, I've worn hand-me-downs from Mom, but that wasn't an option this time, so I actually had to go shopping. What a nightmare that was. It took nearly two hours and trying on practically every pair of pants in the store, but I finally found something that wasn't either too small in the waist/hips or with long enough legs that I'd trip on them - in the petit section. I'm 5' 8'' and overweight (enough so that hiding my stomach is priority number 1 when shopping for anything). Never would have thought to look there, at least not until I was desperate.
With shirts and blouses I have the opposite problem - things tend to be too short in the torso. Moreover, women's clothing tends to be more fitted than men's, making finding things that would be flattering without losing 30 pounds a challenge.
I also have an extreme tactile sensitivity due to my Asperger's. As such,
comfort is a huge priority for me, and women's clothing just isn't built for comfort. Putting it all together, I need a wide selection of stuff just to find one or two things I actually like... and even trying it on isn't a guarantee I won't find issues later (there was a time where I ended up returning or giving away half the stuff I bought, but I've managed to reduce that percentage over the years). It would probably help if I knew more about fashion and had a personal style... but unless I could find a woman (preferably around my age, since the only person I've ever gotten clothing help from is Mom) who would be willing to take me under her wing and solve my shopping problems, I'm stuck doing what I am now.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 16, 2020, 08:01:17 AM
The middle class are shopping online.
But why? Why would you want to pay for shipping and wait two weeks for something you haven't even tried on and can't easily return? It's irrational. If anything, I'm evolving towards less online shopping. While I will occasionally buy books and whatnot from Amazon, I plan to dump them for everything that isn't a mp3 download as soon as my Prime subscription runs out (as I'll be transferring the money to HBO Max, since I mainly had it to stream Doctor Who anyways, and it's not worth keeping it for the once in a blue moon online purchase and to have access to the better quality way to watch CBS All Access). I'd much rather go to one store for everything I need, try things on to verify fit (even then, I still tend to find issues with a decent chunk of the things I buy and end up donating them to goodwill since it doesn't feel right to return something once the tags have already been removed) and have my stuff immediately.
I'll only buy online these days if it's a replacement or duplicate of an existing item, and even that's not a guarantee. I once tried to buy some replacement shapewear, and even though it was the same brand with the same product number with a similar looking picture, what I got was very different from what I had before. I once bought a dress from Kohl's online (to avoid accumulating more Kohl's cash... I only even shopped there because I had a gift card). It didn't fit as well or look as flattering as I had hoped. I think I only wore it once and then never again, giving it away at some point since I couldn't ethically return it since I had already worn it all day.
Quote from: vdeane on May 16, 2020, 10:58:35 PM
Quote from: Rothman on May 16, 2020, 12:13:54 AM
I have been buying clothes online. Got a bunch of dress shirts and just got a pair of khakis.
Everything fits and is fine.
Men have it a LOT easier. Not only are the sizes actually standardized, but there are fewer measurements to worry about since women tend to be more curvy. As a result, short of having every article of clothing tailor-made, it's practically impossible to buy an article of women's clothing that 100% fits just right.
I guess to answer your original reply:
Quote from: vdeane on May 15, 2020, 09:14:29 PM
I still want to know who is embracing online retail for apparel purchases.
At least men. The rating systems tell us whether the items run big or small, or fit as expected. And (obviously) you can buy a couple of the same things and return those that are too big or too small. Refunds are immediate for Amazon.
There is a large number of people who cannot possibly shop online. Judging by your response (which I clipped for brevity), you seem to be one of those people. But I also know that women do shop online. Certainly success varies from person to person, but the online-shopping market, overall, is not small, and certainly isn't made up entirely of men.
Quote from: roadman65 on May 16, 2020, 10:36:24 PM
Well looks like JC Penney is beaten Sears to the finish. Another thread had someone state that those two werw in a running for closing. Now the race is over.
Ain't over until it's over. JC Penney is permanently closing only some of its stores. Chapter 11 bankruptcy can let a smaller JC Penney linger on for awhile like Sears has (the company's PR that it expects to be around for "decades" is probably total BS), and give Sears a chance to beat it to the grave.
Quote from: vdeane on May 16, 2020, 10:58:35 PM
But why? Why would you want to pay for shipping and wait two weeks for something you haven't even tried on and can't easily return? It's irrational.
Because shipping isn't that expensive, you don't have to wait "two weeks" and returning stuff is actually pretty easy.
It's not irrational. It has to do with the value of someone's time. Driving to a store, looking around, trying something on, and going home takes much more time than looking on a computer and buying it. And if it doesn't fit, many places already provide a return label these days.
On topic for a bit, I only buy T-shirts or the exact item of something I already own(ed) online. I prefer to try on stuff; though my company orders us promotional shirts every year or so, and the sizes seem to vary wildly...some times the shirts are too big and other times, too short.
But I think stores like Target and Kohl's have filled that middle-class void which JCPenney's once filled. I'll even pick up a few clothing items at Wal-Mart. There wasn't much big-box development until 30 years ago, unless it was a grocery store. You went to the mall if you lived in suburbia, and that meant going to the big anchors if you wanted something fashionable or your parents insisted on some fancier duds on top of the hand-me-downs.
Whereas the big-boxes usually just have one or two styles, if you went to JCPenney's you could find what you were looking for in all size, colors, and styles. Maybe people are a little less picky about that, if they need it in-person...or go online if you want a tremendous variety.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 16, 2020, 09:02:11 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 16, 2020, 08:06:18 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 16, 2020, 07:59:50 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 16, 2020, 05:56:53 AM
The rich have figured out there's a better return on the same investment by selling to each other than there is to us. Thus why nobody builds new $150,000 houses anymore. There's a better margin spending the same amount of money to build a $250,000 house and leave the older houses to the middle class.
The median home price in the United States is about $248,000. That is the definition of middle class.
Where I'm at, middle class housing is in the $120,000—$150,000 range for a three-bedroom. The $250,000 houses are basically small McMansions.
But the developers keep on blithely building $300,000 houses. I guess someone's buying them, but if the free market was as good as everyone says it is, someone should be swooping in to meet the demand. I haven't seen it happen.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 16, 2020, 07:49:27 AM
They still build the $150,000 houses, they just now sell for $300,000 - $500,000. To some extent, older homes are higher quality than a lot of the cheaper builds that are seen in cookie cutter construction in modern day.
Where I live, a $250,000 house is a pretty solid middle class home. Not a starter home by any means, but hardly a McMansion. The second house I ever owned I bought for $260,000 fifteen years ago, and while it was nice, it was a pretty standard raised ranch.
Another reason home prices continue to climb is that you're paying for it for 30 years; couple that with low interest rates in the past 15-20 years, banks willing to loan really high amounts of money (5-10 times your yearly income), and you have your reasons for escalating home prices. A home that costs $20K-30K more doesn't really increase your monthly mortgage payment that much, but it also creeps up overall prices.
Figure that land, materials, labor, licensing, inspection, and safety requirements are almost always increasing each year, so escalating prices aren't surprising. A new home development is usually seen as something with "less crime" and "better zoning" so it all falls back on itself and buyers' projections. So a builder can show that the used homes can capture the lower-cost or starter-home market, but it also depends on how much growth an area has; if there's a glut of new home building, they cater to different buyers' spending habits and older homes don't shine as much (even if they might have more personality). If you're lucky enough to live somewhere that has an increase in buyers well in advance of new-home production, then you can name your price.
But I think there's lots of people who eschew having a cookie-cutter home, or would prefer having more land and/or perceived privacy. That's not to say older homes aren't great values; if they're well kept-up and you can live with a few quirks - modern homes usually have larger closets, bathrooms, kitchens - and you're able to set aside a chunk of change for repairs (whether unforeseen and/or obvious) you might get more land and avoid zero-lot-lines.
As for some of the brands carried at JCPenney, you can find them elsewhere. For example, IZOD and Van Heusen are sold at Kohl's and on Amazon. In fact I buy most of my IZOD clothes from those two stores rather than JCPenney.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 17, 2020, 07:29:00 AM
Quote from: vdeane on May 16, 2020, 10:58:35 PM
But why? Why would you want to pay for shipping and wait two weeks for something you haven't even tried on and can't easily return? It's irrational.
Because shipping isn't that expensive, you don't have to wait "two weeks" and returning stuff is actually pretty easy.
It's not irrational. It has to do with the value of someone's time. Driving to a store, looking around, trying something on, and going home takes much more time than looking on a computer and buying it. And if it doesn't fit, many places already provide a return label these days.
And both Amazon and Walmart have a pretty low threshold for free shipping, plus Walmart allows store pickup and returns for most of the items it sells online. You get free shipping with a $25 order from Amazon, and with Walmart if you don't opt for store pickup, it's $35 for free shipping.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 17, 2020, 07:29:00 AM
Quote from: vdeane on May 16, 2020, 10:58:35 PM
But why? Why would you want to pay for shipping and wait two weeks for something you haven't even tried on and can't easily return? It's irrational.
Because shipping isn't that expensive, you don't have to wait "two weeks" and returning stuff is actually pretty easy.
It's not irrational. It has to do with the value of someone's time. Driving to a store, looking around, trying something on, and going home takes much more time than looking on a computer and buying it. And if it doesn't fit, many places already provide a return label these days.
Free shipping with Amazon (not Prime) takes up to that long, I think. About a week is fairly normal, though. Not two days unless you're willing to pay for it.
Maybe I don't buy as much as most people, but even a nominal amount is enough to set off my compulsions for frugality. I also don't have shipping materials for returns. In any case, having to buy shipping materials and go to a UPS store to return things strikes me as a bigger hassle than just going to the store in the rist place would have been.
So let's say you buy something, and it's the wrong size, and you need to exchange for the correct size. You order, pay the shipping charge (if you don't have free shipping), it shows up in a week. You then send it back, that takes a week. They send out the new item, that takes a week to come. Three weeks for what would take five minutes in the store. I can't imagine browsing the website, entering address/payment information, etc. is really faster than browsing the store, and driving to/from the store doesn't add much time (if you don't even have half an hour, then you have bigger problems then lack of time to shop; I only shop a couple of times per year, so it's really not that much time; plus I can stop at Great American Cookies for cookie cake slices while I'm at the mall). I'm the type who considers it unethical to return something if the store can't resell the item unless it's defective, and for an online thing, that would be as simple as removing it from it's packaging, so that's out. Plus I'm the type to try on five things for every one I buy, simply because finding things is that hard.
Men's clothes aren't all roses and wine either. Sure, the pants only come measured in width and inseam, but depending on the rise they still might fit well or might fit badly. Similar for shirts and jackets, two measurements just isn't enough. I'd rather buy clothes in person too, unless it's casual T-shirt sizes or something I've bought before.
I suspect that fewer suit stores reflects fewer businesspeople who need to wear suits everyday compared to 20-30 years ago. Workplaces have gotten more casual, unless you're a lawyer working in a courtroom or a senior banker. (At least here, maybe WV is different.)
I don't dislike Penny's but I won't lose any sleep over them either.
We're not Amazon Prime members and I regularly find the free shipping (not sure if they still call it "super-saver shipping") that's supposed to take a week or two usually takes nowhere close to that amount of time–I often receive stuff in two or three days even with the non-Prime free shipping. I wonder whether part of that has to do with there being an Amazon fulfillment center in Springfield just off I-395 about 15 minutes from our house.
Quote from: vdeane on May 15, 2020, 09:14:29 PM
I still want to know who is embracing online retail for apparel purchases. I will never, ever buy something new that I haven't tried on in person. Finding stuff that fits, is affordable, and is good quality is very, very hard (at least for women... men likely have fewer challenges on that front). Besides, who wants to pay for shipping and wait for an item to arrive? Granted, I don't do fast fashion. I'm the type to buy clothes once and then expect them to last 5-10 years, and I insist on everything being machine wash and dryable ("hand wash only" is ridiculously common for women's clothing).
Having grown up in a very small town hours away from the nearest mall, I was accustomed as a child to mail-ordered clothing. Having said that–as a tall, skinny man, I have perhaps the opposite experience of most men when it comes to clothes shopping.
First of all, ordering pants that fit at a brick-and-mortar store is nearly impossible, with the occasional exception being a large western wear store. Specifically, I wear size 29/34 jeans. That's basically impossible to find in a place like JCP, and even western wear stores are hit or miss. So ordering online is the best way for me to buy pants. I can even shop around based on the quality of the material, which is a definite step above "buy whatever you can find in stock".
In contrast, however, finding collared shirts that fit is really hard. Regular-fit shirts usually have sleeves that are too short for me. Big-and-tall sizes, however, end up being really baggy on me. For collared shirts, it's best for me to shop at stores that are a little pricier and
try on a bunch.
Quote from: vdeane on May 15, 2020, 09:14:29 PM
Why is it that places I like to shop inevitably end up going bankrupt? First Payless and now JCPenney. Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.
Darned millennials are ruining everything.
Quote from: kphoger on May 18, 2020, 01:48:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 15, 2020, 09:14:29 PM
Why is it that places I like to shop inevitably end up going bankrupt? First Payless and now JCPenney. Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.
Darned millennials are ruining everything.
Speaking seriously for a moment, I can testify that we
are ruining everything. But primarily because of our interest in experiences. If we're going to go to the mall to go shopping, we better at least have a good time. There is [was] nothing enjoyable about Payless; nothing enjoyable about JCPenney; nothing enjoyable about Sears...these places are drab and boring, with low ceilings, grey everywhere, and a generally uninviting vibe. Plus, the latter two are stupidly large and you can't find anything (the JCPenney in South Hill, WA is so large that the woman's department is
an entirely different (https://goo.gl/maps/xxtMP9ze8sUt41dt7) store in the mall). Compare them, say, to H&M, or Victoria's Secret, or Eddie Bauer: great decoration, enjoyable and fairly young employees, and overall inviting. Plus, they're small enough that you can find what you're looking for easily, whether it's clothing or an employee.
To me, small doesn't mean "easy to find things", it means "lower selection". Fewer sizes, fewer styles, fewer types of clothing sold (thereby meaning visits to more stores), etc.
Quote from: vdeane on May 18, 2020, 10:07:17 PM
To me, small doesn't mean "easy to find things", it means "lower selection". Fewer sizes, fewer styles, fewer types of clothing sold (thereby meaning visits to more stores), etc.
The expectation with smaller shops is definitely not 'all in one place'. It's "here's our selection, which is not huge but it's what we sell a lot of...we can order online and ship you anything else". It's a very profitable business model and certainly works for the vast majority of shoppers. If one store doesn't have what you want, then you wander to the next shop. I don't really see why that is problematic.
Based on what you've said about your experience shopping for clothes, you seem perfectly willing to spend hours inside a single store. Now, you get to spend hours inside multiple stores :-D. That seems like a win for the overall economy, frankly, and you're still seeing a ton of different clothes, no different than you might at a JC Penney.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 18, 2020, 05:35:37 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 18, 2020, 01:48:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 15, 2020, 09:14:29 PM
Why is it that places I like to shop inevitably end up going bankrupt? First Payless and now JCPenney. Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.
Darned millennials are ruining everything.
Speaking seriously for a moment, I can testify that we are ruining everything. But primarily because of our interest in experiences.
I think that's secondary. The primary reason we're ruining things is lack of disposable income.
Quote from: jakerootIf one store doesn't have what you want, then you wander to the next shop. I don't really see why that is problematic.
Because I don't want to drive around from store to store for hours.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 19, 2020, 12:30:55 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 18, 2020, 05:35:37 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 18, 2020, 01:48:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 15, 2020, 09:14:29 PM
Why is it that places I like to shop inevitably end up going bankrupt? First Payless and now JCPenney. Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.
Darned millennials are ruining everything.
Speaking seriously for a moment, I can testify that we are ruining everything. But primarily because of our interest in experiences.
I think that's secondary. The primary reason we're ruining things is lack of disposable income.
Do you really think per-capita disposable income has changed much over the last twenty or thirty years? I think, if anything, it's stagnant.
My comment about experiences is referring to a typical millennial wanting to go somewhere that is fun, or cool, or hip. Fucking
Sears couldn't be further from those things. We're happy to spend our hard earned cash. We just don't want to spend it at Sears because it's a miserable experience going there. JCPenney, at no fault of its own, became another Sears by simply being too big, too boring, and not cool.
Quote from: Rothman on May 19, 2020, 12:37:02 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 19, 2020, 12:23:47 AM
If one store doesn't have what you want, then you wander to the next shop. I don't really see why that is problematic.
Because I don't want to drive around from store to store for hours.
No, but you'd be perfectly happy to drive three cities over to the next JCPenney to find that one item they don't have. God forbid you wander inside the shopping center* to any of the dozens of small shops that might also carry what you're looking for.
*my original hypothetical assumes you're at a shopping center already, since 98% of JCPenneys are at one anyhow. You obviously don't drive from shop to shop when you're at a shopping center.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 19, 2020, 02:20:34 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 19, 2020, 12:30:55 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 18, 2020, 05:35:37 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 18, 2020, 01:48:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 15, 2020, 09:14:29 PM
Why is it that places I like to shop inevitably end up going bankrupt? First Payless and now JCPenney. Pretty soon there will be nothing left for the remains of the middle class.
Darned millennials are ruining everything.
Speaking seriously for a moment, I can testify that we are ruining everything. But primarily because of our interest in experiences.
I think that's secondary. The primary reason we're ruining things is lack of disposable income.
Do you really think per-capita disposable income has changed much over the last twenty or thirty years? I think, if anything, it's stagnant.
The financial crisis of 2008 hit right about when a lot of millennials were graduating from high school and college. The millennials went into the work force with shiny new degrees qualifying them to do work...only to find that all of the entry-level jobs were being occupied by down-and-out Gen Xers and Boomers, forced out of higher-level jobs and into entry-level. With the same degrees, and with the advantage of decades of experience, the Gen Xers and Boomers could easily outcompete the millennials.
With nowhere else to go, millennials were forced to take up jobs outside of their field in retail and similar unskilled trades, like casino gaming. (For instance, I had a friend in the roadgeek community who graduated with a GIS degree and then ended up managing a Taco Bell for a period of several years after graduation; another friend of mine here in Oklahoma has a master's in library science, and she was my predecessor running the OTB counter at the local casino for $40k/year.) These problems were just beginning to sort themselves out when the covid-related economic pause happened.
There are also the problems of federal minimum wage being drastically lower when indexed to inflation compared to the same time of Gen X and the Boomers' lives. Because of the unique adverse environment befalling the millennials, when you look at income, home ownership, and other statistics, millennials have been significantly set back compared to previous generations at the corresponding stages of their lives.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 19, 2020, 02:20:34 AM
Quote from: Rothman on May 19, 2020, 12:37:02 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 19, 2020, 12:23:47 AM
If one store doesn't have what you want, then you wander to the next shop. I don't really see why that is problematic.
Because I don't want to drive around from store to store for hours.
No, but you'd be perfectly happy to drive three cities over to the next JCPenney to find that one item they don't have. God forbid you wander inside the shopping center* to any of the dozens of small shops that might also carry what you're looking for.
*my original hypothetical assumes you're at a shopping center already, since 98% of JCPenneys are at one anyhow. You obviously don't drive from shop to shop when you're at a shopping center.
No, I wouldn't.
Scott, Boomers who found themselves out of a job in 2008 would have faced a lot of age discrimination trying to get another one. Employers would all be looking for those younger employees Jakeroot says he wants to see.
Yeah, I certainly don't prefer to go hours upon hours shopping. An hour or two... that time spent with two hours just searching for a pair of pants that fit was NOT fun, but since I buy things as I need them and not because I'm "having an experience" and happened to see something I liked, so the pants were a non-optional purchase (I needed them for work the next day after I noticed a tear in the pants I'd normally wear and the other pair I had available didn't fit as well). Having to bounce from store to store would have only made it worse and increased the rising panic I was feeling that night!
Honestly, going to one place and browsing around sounds a LOT easier than bouncing from store to store hoping you find something - especially since I wouldn't really know what stores to look in, as the department store model is really all I know.
And no, I'm not driving to different cities just to get clothes.
Quote from: kkt on May 19, 2020, 10:27:59 AM
Scott, Boomers who found themselves out of a job in 2008 would have faced a lot of age discrimination trying to get another one. Employers would all be looking for those younger employees Jakeroot says he wants to see.
I graduated college in 2013. Every "entry level" job I saw wanted at least 2-5 years of experience.
Quote from: vdeane on May 19, 2020, 01:20:36 PM
....
And no, I'm not driving to different cities just to get clothes.
Heh. I'd have to ask my mom to confirm, but I seem to recall one of my parents said when we lived in Copperas Cove, Texas, back when I was born, they had to drive around 80 miles to Austin to go clothes shopping if they wanted more than just basic stuff. We moved to Virginia when I was 1, so I have no memory of any of that. But it was obviously a somewhat different situation given that they didn't have a whole lot of choice on where to live–there was no on-base housing available when my father got sent there, so it was either Copperas Cove or Killeen and it didn't really matter what services were or were not available (or, for that matter, whether the town had niceties like paved roads)–the Army told my father "you're going there" and they did the best they could.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 19, 2020, 03:43:26 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 19, 2020, 01:20:36 PM
....
And no, I'm not driving to different cities just to get clothes.
Heh. I'd have to ask my mom to confirm, but I seem to recall one of my parents said when we lived in Copperas Cove, Texas, back when I was born, they had to drive around 80 miles to Austin to go clothes shopping if they wanted more than just basic stuff.
Well, if you don't live in a city to begin with, you might have drive 80 miles or even double that in some cases, just to get
to a city.
I had family friends in rural ND at one point that would drive an hour and a half just to do their regular grocery shopping, much less clothes shopping. Mind you, it was an easy hour and a half. I'd take that cruise on the interstate over a trip from Alexandria to Towson any day of the week.
Quote from: webny99 on May 19, 2020, 03:54:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 19, 2020, 03:43:26 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 19, 2020, 01:20:36 PM
....
And no, I'm not driving to different cities just to get clothes.
Heh. I'd have to ask my mom to confirm, but I seem to recall one of my parents said when we lived in Copperas Cove, Texas, back when I was born, they had to drive around 80 miles to Austin to go clothes shopping if they wanted more than just basic stuff.
Well, if you don't live in a city to begin with, you might have drive 80 miles or even double that in some cases, just to get to a city.
I had family friends in rural ND at one point that would drive an hour and a half just to do their regular grocery shopping, much less clothes shopping. Mind you, it was an easy hour and a half. I'd take that cruise on the interstate over a trip from Alexandria to Towson any day of the week.
Well, who knows what they'd do now. Things like online shopping didn't exist back then.
Quote from: webny99 on May 19, 2020, 03:54:35 PM
I had family friends in rural ND at one point that would drive an hour and a half just to do their regular grocery shopping, much less clothes shopping. Mind you, it was an easy hour and a half. I'd take that cruise on the interstate over a trip from Alexandria to Towson any day of the week.
When I was growing up in northwestern Kansas, my family made a monthly trip of 50 miles each way to get what groceries couldn't be found in town.
Quote from: Rothman on May 19, 2020, 07:18:31 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 19, 2020, 02:20:34 AM
Quote from: Rothman on May 19, 2020, 12:37:02 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 19, 2020, 12:23:47 AM
If one store doesn't have what you want, then you wander to the next shop. I don't really see why that is problematic.
Because I don't want to drive around from store to store for hours.
No, but you'd be perfectly happy to drive three cities over to the next JCPenney to find that one item they don't have. God forbid you wander inside the shopping center* to any of the dozens of small shops that might also carry what you're looking for.
*my original hypothetical assumes you're at a shopping center already, since 98% of JCPenneys are at one anyhow. You obviously don't drive from shop to shop when you're at a shopping center.
No, I wouldn't.
Not you, Roth. I'm speaking in hypotheticals here. I don't give a shit what you do. I'm trying to make a point that some people insist on visiting only department stores, which to me is tragic when shopping centers literally exist to serve more than just one store. The big department stores might draw people to the center ("anchors") but the idea is not to just give up immediately if you don't find what you want at JCPenney or Sears, etc. Of course, it seems that the younger generations
are going to the other stores, hence the point of this thread.
Quote from: vdeane on May 19, 2020, 01:20:36 PM
Honestly, going to one place and browsing around sounds a LOT easier than bouncing from store to store hoping you find something - especially since I wouldn't really know what stores to look in, as the department store model is really all I know.
So you really don't wander into a shopping center at all? You're missing out on a lot of stores. You could easily find what you're looking for if you stop looking at just huge department stores. Who's to say it will take more time than only looking at one store? Sure, you have to go store to store, but that second store could be full of exactly what you're looking for.
My generation (born, say, 1990 and beyond) definitely did not grow up with the department store model as the "go to" place. We are
used to department stores, but our preference is certainly not to flood into those stores exclusively and never consider anything else (such as was the case with my grandparents). That is almost certainly a huge part of why JCPenney and Sears are dying, and why the smaller-scale, more specific clothing stores are succeeding a bit more (although not exclusively, and one-off shops may not do that well either since word-of-mouth is huge, and chains feed off that -- JCPenney and Sears are just struggling with bad word of mouth).
The nice thing about bouncing from store to store is that you can go stores that exclusively pander to your personal style. Maybe you don't have a style. I think you're fairly unusual in that respect, but people like to go to Banana Republic, Forever 21, H&M, Ecco, or whatever because they fit the look or style they want.
If you were looking for pants for a specific use (work?), there's probably a store that carries them other than JCPenney or whatever. Nordstrom, if you insist on the department model, probably would have had better selection.
I'll throw a few things out here:
JCP has over 840 stores. In the bankruptcy, they're planning to close only 240.
Apparently a team from Amazon is currently in Texas looking into buying JCP out of bankruptcy.
More than anything else, the big boxes killed the department stores. Who would have thought fifty years ago that Montgomery Ward would have been long gone, Sears was hanging on by a very thin thread, and Penney's was in the first stages of bankruptcy? But Walmart and Target, among others, took out the bottom of their market. Best Buy, and later the home improvement big boxes, became serious competitors for appliances and electronics. You have apparel big boxes like Old Navy, and home furnishings big boxes like Bed, Bath, and Beyond.
Any one of those three companies could have become Amazon. All they needed to do was move their catalog and ordering process online. Their network of brick and mortar stores would have been a huge competitive advantage. None of them did.
You can compete against the big boxes, but you need to offer service that they do not offer, or are not willing to, and you need to sell higher margin goods that they choose not to sell. In an economic downturn, it's the people in the middle who usually stop buying- or at best by goods of lesser quality. The people at the top have money, and the people at the bottom continue to have needs. The people in the middle move down, and then move back up if things get better for them.
Shopping malls used to be built because the anchors (department stores) needed to add locations. When they no longer need to do so (but other retailers saw opportunities), developers built "lifestyle centers"- essentially shopping centers that feature stores from national or regional chains- but not department stores. Generally upscale, because that's where the money was.
And, finally, the worst thing to buy online: SHOES. I can't think of anything more frustrating.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 18, 2020, 05:35:37 PM
Speaking seriously for a moment, I can testify that we are ruining everything. But primarily because of our interest in experiences. If we're going to go to the mall to go shopping, we better at least have a good time. There is [was] nothing enjoyable about Payless; nothing enjoyable about JCPenney; nothing enjoyable about Sears...these places are drab and boring, with low ceilings, grey everywhere, and a generally uninviting vibe.
I don't (didn't) need Payless to be enjoyable. I needed it to have low-cost shoes in my size.
Shopping was a fun, entertaining experience for me at one point. When I was in college, I'd go out to the department stores in Morehead that preceded Walmart (which didn't come to town until five or six years after I graduated; we had a Rose's, a Maloney's, and a Heck's, I believe) and look through their music section to see if any new albums had come out. In later years, I began to enjoy browsing the CD and electronics selections at places like Best Buy and Circuit City, and the clothing section in Walmart. I didn't care what the stores looked like. I was interested in the merchandise.
At some point, I completely lost interest in doing anything like that. Now, shopping is a necessary task that I do to pick up essentials (I don't have disposable income anymore). I want to get it done and over with in the shortest amount of time possible, and don't need enhancements or amenities or extras to try to make it an entertaining experience. What I want is to be able to quickly get what items I want, get them at the cheapest price possible, and be able to get out of the store and back home in the least amount of time possible.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 19, 2020, 02:20:34 AM
*my original hypothetical assumes you're at a shopping center already, since 98% of JCPenneys are at one anyhow. You obviously don't drive from shop to shop when you're at a shopping center.
You do if you're at a place like Hamburg Pavilion in Lexington, where the crap is all spread out.
https://goo.gl/maps/EFYSyctAFLBw3wAW6
Quote from: jakeroot on May 19, 2020, 05:53:04 PM
So you really don't wander into a shopping center at all? You're missing out on a lot of stores. You could easily find what you're looking for if you stop looking at just huge department stores. Who's to say it will take more time than only looking at one store? Sure, you have to go store to store, but that second store could be full of exactly what you're looking for.
My generation (born, say, 1990 and beyond) definitely did not grow up with the department store model as the "go to" place. We are used to department stores, but our preference is certainly not to flood into those stores exclusively and never consider anything else (such as was the case with my grandparents). That is almost certainly a huge part of why JCPenney and Sears are dying, and why the smaller-scale, more specific clothing stores are succeeding a bit more (although not exclusively, and one-off shops may not do that well either since word-of-mouth is huge, and chains feed off that -- JCPenney and Sears are just struggling with bad word of mouth).
The nice thing about bouncing from store to store is that you can go stores that exclusively pander to your personal style. Maybe you don't have a style. I think you're fairly unusual in that respect, but people like to go to Banana Republic, Forever 21, H&M, Ecco, or whatever because they fit the look or style they want.
If you were looking for pants for a specific use (work?), there's probably a store that carries them other than JCPenney or whatever. Nordstrom, if you insist on the department model, probably would have had better selection.
Not a whole lot these days, unless you count Great American Cookies (which I almost always drive to from JCPenney, not because I don't feel like walking, but because I got tired of being harassed by the people selling things in the walkways and because legally I need to turn right out of the parking lot anyways and it's a good excuse to turn around). I used to go in to get shoes at Payless (I was thinking about trying Famous Footwear the next time I need shoes, but who knows what the retail landscape will be post-pandemic at this point) and got a few pieces at Forever 21 back when I was younger and before I got frustrated with how many things there are hand wash and/or line dry/dry flat and with how their clothes don't last long.
I'm not really sure I have a personal style, aside from "business casual" and a shirt plus jeans/shorts/a skirt. It would probably take shopping with someone who knows more about fashion and whatnot to develop one, and it doesn't help that my wardrobe needs shifted when I started working for DOT and the majority of my (non-pandemic) clothing needs became officeware. It was certainly easy to shop pretty much entirely at one store, and easy became the predominating factor in a lot of things when most areas of my life began falling into a rut several years ago.
Fun fact: during the year I lived in Rome, NY, the local JCPenney was one of the few not attached to a mall.
Quote from: vdeane on May 19, 2020, 01:20:36 PM
I graduated college in 2013. Every "entry level" job I saw wanted at least 2-5 years of experience.
I'm sorry they were misusing the language. :/
Boomers were born 1945-1964, so in 2008 the youngest of them would have been 44, and roughly 15-20 years of work.
Quote from: kkt on May 19, 2020, 11:42:36 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 19, 2020, 01:20:36 PM
I graduated college in 2013. Every "entry level" job I saw wanted at least 2-5 years of experience.
I'm sorry they were misusing the language. :/
It was an intentional misuse. They were still paying entry-level wages, but requiring non-entry-levels of experience. They knew exactly what they were doing.
I don't have a personal style. Comfort and functionality and price are the three most important things to me. I've never been stylish, not even as a teenager or young adult.
About the only clothing brand preference I have is for Adidas shoes, and that's more of a comfort thing. I've always preferred the way they fit and feel vs. Nike or other shoe company. And I tend to wear the same shoes for both work and casual settings, so a pair of Adidas shoes can fit my work needs as well as my off-work needs.
My favorite pair of jeans at the moment cost me $10 at Rural King. They fit, they're functional, and they're comfortable. They're also a whole lot cheaper than Levi's.
Most of the Penney locations in my area are in strip mall-type shopping centers. There's still a Penney's at the traditional mall (Fayette Mall) in Lexington, but the Mt. Sterling, Danville, and Hazard locations are in strip malls. Richmond's location relocated from a traditional mall built in the late 1980s to a new strip mall development built about 10-15 years ago.
Quote from: Konza on May 19, 2020, 06:24:44 PM
And, finally, the worst thing to buy online: SHOES. I can't think of anything more frustrating.
My best friend took his wife shopping for steel-toe work boots once. They went to Dick's, tried on boots, found the kind they wanted, then went home to order online. The exact same boot in the exact same size arrived in the mail a while later, and it didn't fit her feet right.
Quote from: kphoger on May 20, 2020, 02:47:02 PM
Quote from: Konza on May 19, 2020, 06:24:44 PM
And, finally, the worst thing to buy online: SHOES. I can't think of anything more frustrating.
My best friend took his wife shopping for steel-toe work boots once. They went to Dick's, tried on boots, found the kind they wanted, then went home to order online. The exact same boot in the exact same size arrived in the mail a while later, and it didn't fit her feet right.
Sometimes there are subtle differences in the same items for different retailers. A pair of Wrangler BR-549 jeans (and yes, I just made that model number up) that you buy at Walmart might not be the same pair of Wrangler BR-549 jeans you can get at Tractor Supply.
Quote from: kphoger on May 20, 2020, 02:47:02 PM
Quote from: Konza on May 19, 2020, 06:24:44 PM
And, finally, the worst thing to buy online: SHOES. I can't think of anything more frustrating.
My best friend took his wife shopping for steel-toe work boots once. They went to Dick's, tried on boots, found the kind they wanted, then went home to order online. The exact same boot in the exact same size arrived in the mail a while later, and it didn't fit her feet right.
I presume they bought them from somewhere else? That story feels kinda like karma.
I'm wondering if Amazon won't buy up JCP's assets and do something with them. They have more than enough cash to pay off their debt.
I also wonder if when Sears Holdings filed they considered buying theirs. Both obviously have a lot of real estate and it would be a chance to revive a struggling brand.
I dunno. Selling online has made Amazon very successful. Why would they want to turn around and invest in a brick and mortar chain that's already in trouble?
I think the answer to both of the above posts is "apparel" . Amazon sees a weakness there, and clothing and soft goods have always been a perceived strength of JCP. Sears was always stronger in hard goods; such things do not fit as well into Amazon's distribution model.
JCP only recently reintroduced appliances. They once had auto centers as well; many of those are now the Firestone locations along mall ring roads.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 20, 2020, 09:53:04 PM
I'm wondering if Amazon won't buy up JCP's assets and do something with them. They have more than enough cash to pay off their debt.
I also wonder if when Sears Holdings filed they considered buying theirs. Both obviously have a lot of real estate and it would be a chance to revive a struggling brand.
There were some rumors that Amazon was thinking about buying Kohls.
But in the end, I don't see why they would change their business model. Especially given the times we are in now.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 21, 2020, 08:52:22 AM
There were some rumors that Amazon was thinking about buying Kohls.
But in the end, I don't see why they would change their business model. Especially given the times we are in now.
Amazon did take over Whole Foods, which in selected markets gives Amazon a vehicle to get into groceries and especially online grocery delivery. That seems to be good timing, with the pandemic.
But Kohls and JC Penney aren't different enough from what Amazon already offers to make sense.
Quote from: kkt on May 20, 2020, 10:26:43 PM
I dunno. Selling online has made Amazon very successful. Why would they want to turn around and invest in a brick and mortar chain that's already in trouble?
Real estate and intellectual property. AMZ could use the existing storefronts to test a potential new retail concept.
Quote from: oscar on May 21, 2020, 09:06:17 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 21, 2020, 08:52:22 AM
There were some rumors that Amazon was thinking about buying Kohls.
But in the end, I don't see why they would change their business model. Especially given the times we are in now.
Amazon did take over Whole Foods, which in selected markets gives Amazon a vehicle to get into groceries and especially online grocery delivery. That seems to be good timing, with the pandemic.
But Kohls and JC Penney aren't different enough from what Amazon already offers to make sense.
Amazon is also setting up book stores in selected markets, so retail does seem to be something Amazon is interested in to a certain extent.
Quote from: vdeane on May 21, 2020, 02:32:52 PM
Quote from: oscar on May 21, 2020, 09:06:17 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on May 21, 2020, 08:52:22 AM
There were some rumors that Amazon was thinking about buying Kohls.
But in the end, I don't see why they would change their business model. Especially given the times we are in now.
Amazon did take over Whole Foods, which in selected markets gives Amazon a vehicle to get into groceries and especially online grocery delivery. That seems to be good timing, with the pandemic.
But Kohls and JC Penney aren't different enough from what Amazon already offers to make sense.
Amazon is also setting up book stores in selected markets, so retail does seem to be something Amazon is interested in to a certain extent.
Amazon tried out a brick and mortar store here. It was the world's worst bookstore. Remember the little mall bookstores like B. Dalton? Maybe 1000 titles, and a totally ignorant staff? That's what the Amazon B&M bookstore was like.
Quote from: kkt on May 21, 2020, 04:14:18 PM
Amazon tried out a brick and mortar store here. It was the world's worst bookstore. Remember the little mall bookstores like B. Dalton? Maybe 1000 titles, and a totally ignorant staff? That's what the Amazon B&M bookstore was like.
One step down from Waldenbooks?
Quote from: kphoger on May 21, 2020, 04:25:09 PM
Quote from: kkt on May 21, 2020, 04:14:18 PM
Amazon tried out a brick and mortar store here. It was the world's worst bookstore. Remember the little mall bookstores like B. Dalton? Maybe 1000 titles, and a totally ignorant staff? That's what the Amazon B&M bookstore was like.
One step down from Waldenbooks?
Pretty much. Just a best-seller section. Maybe like a book and magazine kiosk in an airport.
Store closing list:
https://companyblog.jcpnewsroom.com/storeclosings/
Quote from: catch22 on June 04, 2020, 09:14:34 PM
Store closing list:
https://companyblog.jcpnewsroom.com/storeclosings/
No huge surprises for closures in NY, except for the one at Destiny USA! Yikes, that's a gut punch. I would have thought that would have literally been
last on the list to close, likely literally bottom 5 in the entire country.
Yeah, that's a bit of a plot twist. I wonder why Binghamton isn't losing JCPenney but Syracuse is.
Not surprised about the Rome store closing, though.
Quote from: catch22 on June 04, 2020, 09:14:34 PM
Store closing list:
https://companyblog.jcpnewsroom.com/storeclosings/
None in NJ yet.
I was on the USA today website earlier. Within the article were links to "Closing 252 Stores" (or whatever the number is). Every link simply went to another story about JC Penney. All clickbait to drive up their numbers!
Nothing in WA either. That surprises me, since none of the ones I can think of seem that busy. Although we don't seem to have quite the number of dead malls that populate so much of the country.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 04, 2020, 10:47:20 PM
Quote from: catch22 on June 04, 2020, 09:14:34 PM
Store closing list:
https://companyblog.jcpnewsroom.com/storeclosings/
None in NJ yet.
I was on the USA today website earlier. Within the article were links to "Closing 252 Stores" (or whatever the number is). Every link simply went to another story about JC Penney. All clickbait to drive up their numbers!
But you should be supporting journalism that's also infuriating to use... :/
JCPenney closed many of their stores in Northern Alabama 3-4 years ago, which was our go-to photo studio source.
Quote from: catch22 on June 04, 2020, 09:14:34 PM
Store closing list:
https://companyblog.jcpnewsroom.com/storeclosings/
No surprise about Danville, VA. The mall is a ghost town and has already lost Sears. Once JCPenney closes, the only anchors left will be Belk and Dunham's Sports. Hull Property Group owns the mall and they have completely mismanaged it, so that doesn't help. I remember when they took over the mall in Wilson, NC in 2004 and proceeded to do everything they could to run it into the ground. They finally succeeded in 2013.
Quote from: catch22 on June 04, 2020, 09:14:34 PM
Store closing list:
https://companyblog.jcpnewsroom.com/storeclosings/
Only three in MI, but they aren't that surprising (Alpena, Cadillac, and Petoskey). It's surprising some that are staying open for now (Big Rapids and Owosso come to mind). In northern Michigan, the last mass closure was in the early 1990s, which took out Ludington and Manistee
The JC Penney at Springfield Mall here in Fairfax County will remain open. That store's claim to fame is that Charles and Diana (the Prince and Princess of Wales) went shopping there while they were on a state visit here–it was November 11, 1985. No joke, they really went to JC Penney. The reason is that the store had some special display going on by a British designer and I guess they arranged for the Royal visit as a publicity coup.
(https://i.redd.it/j1esgg6kumd31.jpg)
Biggest surprise to me:
The JC Penney in Andalusia, AL lasted this long.
Quote from: jdb1234 on June 05, 2020, 10:29:26 AM
Biggest surprise to me:
The JC Penney in Andalusia, AL lasted this long.
I think you would be surprised at the profitability of some of these out of the way stores. We had a K-Mart that hung on longer than most in the 10,000 sized town I lived in prior to living here. I believe it was one of the last two or three in Wisconsin. Loyal customers and a good lease.
The store at Fox River Mall here in the Appleton, WI area survives, but that mall has already lost two department stores in recent years (Sears and Younkers) and their Macy's is looking very threadbare....
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on June 05, 2020, 12:03:35 PM
The store at Fox River Mall here in the Appleton, WI area survives, but that mall has already lost two department stores in recent years (Sears and Younkers) and their Macy's is looking very threadbare....
Mike
Similarly, I was surprised that the nearest JCP to me (Westland, MI) made the cut. Westland Mall lost its Macy's a couple of years ago, the Sears store is one of the last in the state (and may never reopen), which would leave Kohl's as the lone anchor. Both JCP and Kohl's have standalone stores about 4 miles away, so I'm expecting them both to jump ship at some point. The inline stores in the mall are starting to thin out some too.
A couple of others that I'm surprised aren't on the "to be closed" list - the one near Massena (the mall there is basically dead even though it's right on the border, and with international travel likely to be one of the last things to come back, I don't see how it can survive), and the one in Marketplace Mall (it's the last original anchor - Sears, Macey's, and the Bon Ton all left) near Rochester.
Interesting that in Arizona they are closing one store in Tucson and one in Phoenix, but the two stores along the international border, Douglas and Nogales, are not on the list. I've always found it interesting that there is not a JCP in Sierra Vista, which is bigger than both of them (and has an open mall space since Sears closed) but does not have a larger city immediately south of it in Mexico.
Closing stores in multi-store markets is tricky, because fewer stores remain in the market among which to divide the market-wide expenses like advertising.
Danville, Ky., surprised me. That store has always been one where I could find decent values. I figured either Hazard or Mt. Sterling would close before Danville.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 05, 2020, 10:38:30 AM
Quote from: jdb1234 on June 05, 2020, 10:29:26 AM
Biggest surprise to me:
The JC Penney in Andalusia, AL lasted this long.
I think you would be surprised at the profitability of some of these out of the way stores. We had a K-Mart that hung on longer than most in the 10,000 sized town I lived in prior to living here. I believe it was one of the last two or three in Wisconsin. Loyal customers and a good lease.
I was surprised to see Big Rapids and Owosso in Michigan both keeping their JCPenney's for now (they're both downtown locations).
Quote from: Konza on June 05, 2020, 01:44:21 PM
Interesting that in Arizona they are closing one store in Tucson and one in Phoenix, but the two stores along the international border, Douglas and Nogales, are not on the list. I've always found it interesting that there is not a JCP in Sierra Vista, which is bigger than both of them (and has an open mall space since Sears closed) but does not have a larger city immediately south of it in Mexico.
Closing stores in multi-store markets is tricky, because fewer stores remain in the market among which to divide the market-wide expenses like advertising.
Note that profitability alone isn't the only factor in determining store closures when there are multiple stores in proximity. Sometimes they may choose to close the store with the shorter lease and keep the store with a longer existing lease, instead of renewing the lease even if that store is more profitable. This is important during bankruptcy because if you liquidate you don't want to be stuck with long-term leases.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on June 07, 2020, 11:46:09 AM
Quote from: Konza on June 05, 2020, 01:44:21 PM
Interesting that in Arizona they are closing one store in Tucson and one in Phoenix, but the two stores along the international border, Douglas and Nogales, are not on the list. I've always found it interesting that there is not a JCP in Sierra Vista, which is bigger than both of them (and has an open mall space since Sears closed) but does not have a larger city immediately south of it in Mexico.
Closing stores in multi-store markets is tricky, because fewer stores remain in the market among which to divide the market-wide expenses like advertising.
Note that profitability alone isn't the only factor in determining store closures when there are multiple stores in proximity. Sometimes they may choose to close the store with the shorter lease and keep the store with a longer existing lease, instead of renewing the lease even if that store is more profitable. This is important during bankruptcy because if you liquidate you don't want to be stuck with long-term leases.
However:
Anchor stores in shopping centers generally have long initial leases with a string of fairly long options to extend, often at favorable rents. If the location has promise for another tenant, the original tenant can sublease or assign the lease to that successor tenant, often at a profit, should the lease allow that.
Furthermore, bankruptcy gives tenant the opportunity to renegotiate contracts, including leases. At some locations, such an opportunity might be one of the factors that could keep a marginal location open.
JCP adds 13 more stores to the closure list:
Michigan: Greenville, Owosso, Big Rapids, Alma, Bay City, Mt. Pleasant and Okemos
New York: Bay Shore and Poughkeepsie
Washington: Omak and Sunnyside
Maryland: Hyattsville
California: Concord
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/23/business/jcpenney-store-closings/index.html
Quote from: catch22 on June 23, 2020, 12:44:41 PM
JCP adds 13 more stores to the closure list:
Michigan: Greenville, Owosso, Big Rapids, Alma, Bay City, Mt. Pleasant and Okemos
New York: Bay Shore and Poughkeepsie
Washington: Omak and Sunnyside
Maryland: Hyattsville
California: Concord
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/23/business/jcpenney-store-closings/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/23/business/jcpenney-store-closings/index.html)
Ouch, that must hurt for Michigan...