https://www.paturnpike.com/yourTurnpike/covid19_info.aspx
From what I understand, all the toll road authorities could just install cameras and transponder readers at their existing booths, meaning drivers would have to slow down to anywhere between 5 and 20 MPH for a toll read, but cash payments and toll tickets could just go away. Toll roads could then upgrade to higher-speed toll gantries whenever they feel it's warranted.
Different but related question: At first, I found it odd that the Mass Pike's completed AET conversion and the Penna Turnpike's future AET conversion were switching from an entry/exit-based tolling system to a mainline point-based "open" tolling system, but I have an educated guess as to why this is. Is it because of the chance of misreads? Say, if your entry point is misread, the only fair thing to do would be for the exit point to assume you got on at the closest entry point. And if your exit point is misread, you just got a free ride. But with multiple toll collection points spread through your trip, a single misread would only be a modest discount. Is this interpretation correct?
Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 28, 2020, 07:07:27 AM
...
all the toll road authorities could just install
...
You pretty much answered your own question. They could, but why, and at what cost? What's in it for them?
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 28, 2020, 07:07:27 AM
Different but related question: At first, I found it odd that the Mass Pike's completed AET conversion and the Penna Turnpike's future AET conversion were switching from an entry/exit-based tolling system to a mainline point-based "open" tolling system, but I have an educated guess as to why this is. Is it because of the chance of misreads? Say, if your entry point is misread, the only fair thing to do would be for the exit point to assume you got on at the closest entry point. And if your exit point is misread, you just got a free ride. But with multiple toll collection points spread through your trip, a single misread would only be a modest discount. Is this interpretation correct?
Nothing to do with misreads. It's a combination of allowing free travel between certain exits, reducing the number of required gantries, and allowing for interchange reconfigurations. The current gantry locations allow free travel between exits 4 and 7 and 10 and 11, to allow local traffic to use the turnpike and relieve some of the burden on other, more congested roads. If gantries were located at every interchange, you'd need more of them, even without the free segments.
MassDOT is also planning on reconfiguring interchanges away from the congested double trumpets now that all interchange traffic doesn't need to pass through a single toll booth location, starting with exit 11A (the preferred concept for which can be found here [PDF] (https://www.mass.gov/doc/october-2019-project-fact-sheet/download). It's a little disappointing, but does allow >40 mph on all movements with no weaving). Placing gantries on the mainline between interchanges means they won't be affected by this and future projects.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on May 28, 2020, 08:28:02 AM
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 28, 2020, 07:07:27 AM
Different but related question: At first, I found it odd that the Mass Pike's completed AET conversion and the Penna Turnpike's future AET conversion were switching from an entry/exit-based tolling system to a mainline point-based "open" tolling system, but I have an educated guess as to why this is. Is it because of the chance of misreads? Say, if your entry point is misread, the only fair thing to do would be for the exit point to assume you got on at the closest entry point. And if your exit point is misread, you just got a free ride. But with multiple toll collection points spread through your trip, a single misread would only be a modest discount. Is this interpretation correct?
Nothing to do with misreads. It's a combination of allowing free travel between certain exits, reducing the number of required gantries, and allowing for interchange reconfigurations. The current gantry locations allow free travel between exits 4 and 7 and 10 and 11, to allow local traffic to use the turnpike and relieve some of the burden on other, more congested roads. If gantries were located at every interchange, you'd need more of them, even without the free segments.
MassDOT is also planning on reconfiguring interchanges away from the congested double trumpets now that all interchange traffic doesn't need to pass through a single toll booth location, starting with exit 11A (the preferred concept for which can be found here [PDF] (https://www.mass.gov/doc/october-2019-project-fact-sheet/download). It's a little disappointing, but does allow >40 mph on all movements with no weaving). Placing gantries on the mainline between interchanges means they won't be affected by this and future projects.
That was always my understanding as well, to allow for the free segments in Springfield and Worcester along with future interchange additions/re-configurations.
In regards to misreads though, I had an interesting situation happen last time I was up in Mass - entered the Pike from I-84 and continued east to Boston. With my MD EZPass, this would mean $2.00 from 84 to 95/128 (and another $2.65 from there to downtown, but that's not the focus of this story). When the charges appeared on my account several days later, this segment somehow split up into 2 overlapping charges - $1.40 from Charlton to Southborough, and another $1.40 from Hopkinton to Weston. (Which means I essentially got double-charged at both Hopkinton & Southborough).
Free segments already existed on the Mass Pike. For regular cars (and probably motorcycles?), exits 1-6 had the same toll no matter which exit you got off at, and going from one of those exits to another of those exits would be a $0.00 toll. This was removed before AET was implemented, but not by much.
Tolls west of exit 6 were reinstated in 2013, before the AET contracts were even awarded, and long before it went live in 2016. Completely unrelated.
The AET project did eliminate the free segment between exits 16 and 17 in Newton though.
My understanding is that the free tolls west of exit 6 happened because Western Mass residents were complaining that their toll $$$ were going to the Big Dig on the other side of the state?
Whilst I agree that electronic tolling is the way to go it presents a major financial problem for foreign visitors driving rental cars. Where possible I pay cash but this isn't going to last. The two ways of paying on the Mass Pike will cost me bucketloads. Either use the Platepass in the car which charges about $4 a day even for the days it isn't used or have the license plate photographed and the rental car company pays the tolls plus an admin charge of $25+ for each toll.
I dread to think what I'll do when Illinois removes cash payment from the tollways as I regularly fly into O'Hare and drive to Ohio. Without the option of using the tollway I'll be stuck with either using the Kennedy/Dan Ryan and suffer heinous congestion or use surface streets with traffic lights every 1/2 mile burning up loads of time and gas in the process.
Quote from: Truvelo on May 28, 2020, 01:01:58 PM
Whilst I agree that electronic tolling is the way to go it presents a major financial problem for foreign visitors driving rental cars. Where possible I pay cash but this isn't going to last. The two ways of paying on the Mass Pike will cost me bucketloads. Either use the Platepass in the car which charges about $4 a day even for the days it isn't used or have the license plate photographed and the rental car company pays the tolls plus an admin charge of $25+ for each toll.
I dread to think what I'll do when Illinois removes cash payment from the tollways as I regularly fly into O'Hare and drive to Ohio. Without the option of using the tollway I'll be stuck with either using the Kennedy/Dan Ryan and suffer heinous congestion or use surface streets with traffic lights every 1/2 mile burning up loads of time and gas in the process.
Illinois is probably your easiest one. You can shortcut the rental company by paying online.
Quote from: Brandon on May 28, 2020, 01:13:11 PM
Quote from: Truvelo on May 28, 2020, 01:01:58 PM
Whilst I agree that electronic tolling is the way to go it presents a major financial problem for foreign visitors driving rental cars. Where possible I pay cash but this isn't going to last. The two ways of paying on the Mass Pike will cost me bucketloads. Either use the Platepass in the car which charges about $4 a day even for the days it isn't used or have the license plate photographed and the rental car company pays the tolls plus an admin charge of $25+ for each toll.
I dread to think what I'll do when Illinois removes cash payment from the tollways as I regularly fly into O'Hare and drive to Ohio. Without the option of using the tollway I'll be stuck with either using the Kennedy/Dan Ryan and suffer heinous congestion or use surface streets with traffic lights every 1/2 mile burning up loads of time and gas in the process.
Illinois is probably your easiest one. You can shortcut the rental company by paying online.
Yes, there is the option to pay online if a toll has been missed. I remember having problems at the booth near the airport years ago which wouldn't turn green even though I paid the correct amount. This option is only available to US residents but someone on this forum was kind enough to pay for me to avoid a huge fee from the rental car company.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 28, 2020, 07:37:57 AM
Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.
I don't think states even
have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states. As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate. Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 01:59:32 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 28, 2020, 07:37:57 AM
Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.
I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states. As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate. Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.
Hah, out-of-state discount! :P
Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 28, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 01:59:32 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 28, 2020, 07:37:57 AM
Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.
I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states. As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate. Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.
Hah, out-of-state discount! :P
Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?
I fail to see how it could be much different.
But actually, now that I think about it, I believe I misspoke earlier. I should have said that
states toll agencies or the companies to whom they outsource delinquent toll collection don't have access to other states' DMV records without specific agreements with those states. So I guess the difference would be determined by how a particular police jurisdiction handles collecting camera violation fines.
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 28, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 01:59:32 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 28, 2020, 07:37:57 AM
Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.
I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states. As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate. Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.
Hah, out-of-state discount! :P
Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compact
Many states and even some provinces share information, but not all.
Quote from: Brandon on May 28, 2020, 02:57:47 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 28, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 01:59:32 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 28, 2020, 07:37:57 AM
Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.
I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states. As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate. Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.
Hah, out-of-state discount! :P
Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compact
Many states and even some provinces share information, but not all.
Does that information sharing extend to getting an out-of-state driver's info based solely on a license plate number?
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 03:13:44 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 28, 2020, 02:57:47 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 28, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 01:59:32 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 28, 2020, 07:37:57 AM
Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.
I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states. As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate. Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.
Hah, out-of-state discount! :P
Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compact
Many states and even some provinces share information, but not all.
Does that information sharing extend to getting an out-of-state driver's info based solely on a license plate number?
I got a bill from ON 407 based on my Michigan plate. It took about 2 months to get it, but it did come. So yes, they share.
Quote from: GaryV on May 28, 2020, 03:15:40 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 03:13:44 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 28, 2020, 02:57:47 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 28, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 01:59:32 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 28, 2020, 07:37:57 AM
Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.
I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states. As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate. Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.
Hah, out-of-state discount! :P
Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compact
Many states and even some provinces share information, but not all.
Does that information sharing extend to getting an out-of-state driver's info based solely on a license plate number?
I got a bill from ON 407 based on my Michigan plate. It took about 2 months to get it, but it did come. So yes, they share.
I assume you mean you got a bill for a highway toll. In that case, all it means is that the toll collector for ON-407 has an agreement with the Michigan DMV. But that's not the same thing as getting issued a
traffic violation ticket from a city PD.
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 03:37:15 PM
Quote from: GaryV on May 28, 2020, 03:15:40 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 03:13:44 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 28, 2020, 02:57:47 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 28, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 01:59:32 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 28, 2020, 07:37:57 AM
Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.
I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states. As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate. Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.
Hah, out-of-state discount! :P
Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compact
Many states and even some provinces share information, but not all.
Does that information sharing extend to getting an out-of-state driver's info based solely on a license plate number?
I got a bill from ON 407 based on my Michigan plate. It took about 2 months to get it, but it did come. So yes, they share.
I assume you mean you got a bill for a highway toll. In that case, all it means is that the toll collector for ON-407 has an agreement with the Michigan DMV. But that's not the same thing as getting issued a traffic violation ticket from a city PD.
Correct. This thread is about AET. Traffic violations were an offshoot.
But still, what incentive does the Michigan Secretary of State have for giving my information to the ON-407 collector? Maybe that's part of the surcharge for billing by mail - that they have to give MI a piece of the action to pay for the info?
Quote from: jmacswimmer on May 28, 2020, 12:03:03 PM
My understanding is that the free tolls west of exit 6 happened because Western Mass residents were complaining that their toll $$$ were going to the Big Dig on the other side of the state?
That was exactly the reason. Of course it ignores that the Boston economy heavily subsidizes the western half of the state, so they still benefited from it, but that's a whole other can of worms...
Quote from: GaryV on May 28, 2020, 03:15:40 PM
I got a bill from ON 407 based on my Michigan plate. It took about 2 months to get it, but it did come. So yes, they share.
Meanwhile I never got a bill after driving it with Mass plates. Some states will, some won't.
This is also an offshoot topic, but I'm not sure it warrants its own thread--
In light of how problematic AET conversion actually is, for the aforementioned reasons (and is it really fair that someone from Kansas with a K-TAG would pay a toll on a Texas toll road but someone from Kansas without one wouldn't?), I've come up with a hypothetical idea for how ticket-based toll roads could eliminate tickets but still collect cash payments from customers without transponders (and this would also apply to the weird hybrid system on Oklahoma's Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes).
How technologically/economically/legally/politically feasible would this be?
On a ticket-based toll road, every time someone goes through an entry gate without a transponder, the driver would be required to slow down or stop just enough for a camera to photograph the vehicle's license plate and for sensors to count the vehicle's axles. The system temporarily stores three pieces of data: the full license plate info (unique identifier), the axle count, and the entry location. When the same vehicle goes through an exit gate, the driver would be required to stop, but a camera would photograph the driver's license plate, and the system would find the corresponding license plate identifier, axle count, and entry point. The corresponding toll would be displayed on a screen at the booth, and the driver would simply have to toss the right amount of coins into a basket, or feed bills into a cash receptacle if necessary. This would be completely touch-free unless the driver needs change, in which case, the cash machine could produce change just like a vending machine. (In the case of the Turner and Will Rogers Turnpikes, the driver would need to collect the cash refund from the machine, in cases where a refund is applicable.)
If the system fails to read the vehicle's license plate at either point, the driver is charged for the entry point closest to his or her exit point and only for a two-axle vehicle (since the axle count would be lost). If the system fails to read the vehicle's axle count, the driver is charged for a two-axle vehicle.
Vending machine-style toll collection is already being used. This just removes the tickets from the system.
I'm also wondering if the logistical issues with existing AET systems might warrant the installation of coin baskets and/or cash machines on those roads. Hmm--
Quote from: Truvelo on May 28, 2020, 01:21:37 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 28, 2020, 01:13:11 PM
Quote from: Truvelo on May 28, 2020, 01:01:58 PM
Whilst I agree that electronic tolling is the way to go it presents a major financial problem for foreign visitors driving rental cars. Where possible I pay cash but this isn't going to last. The two ways of paying on the Mass Pike will cost me bucketloads. Either use the Platepass in the car which charges about $4 a day even for the days it isn't used or have the license plate photographed and the rental car company pays the tolls plus an admin charge of $25+ for each toll.
I dread to think what I'll do when Illinois removes cash payment from the tollways as I regularly fly into O'Hare and drive to Ohio. Without the option of using the tollway I'll be stuck with either using the Kennedy/Dan Ryan and suffer heinous congestion or use surface streets with traffic lights every 1/2 mile burning up loads of time and gas in the process.
Illinois is probably your easiest one. You can shortcut the rental company by paying online.
Yes, there is the option to pay online if a toll has been missed. I remember having problems at the booth near the airport years ago which wouldn't turn green even though I paid the correct amount. This option is only available to US residents but someone on this forum was kind enough to pay for me to avoid a huge fee from the rental car company.
If you travel between Illinois and Ohio often, it may be worthwhile to get an IPass from the Illinois Tollway. No monthly fee and it's EZPass compatible. I got one when I moved to Colorado in 2006 for when I drove back east to Ohio or Ontario. It's also easy to add a rental car as a temporary car for your tolls. I even used it for my Penske moving truck to avoid stopping at the I-80 tollbooth south of Chicago.
Quote from: Truvelo on May 28, 2020, 01:01:58 PM
Whilst I agree that electronic tolling is the way to go it presents a major financial problem for foreign visitors driving rental cars. Where possible I pay cash but this isn't going to last. The two ways of paying on the Mass Pike will cost me bucketloads. Either use the Platepass in the car which charges about $4 a day even for the days it isn't used or have the license plate photographed and the rental car company pays the tolls plus an admin charge of $25+ for each toll.
It probably varies based on location and company, but I rented a car from Alamo in Boston (which was Costco Travel's cheapest option) last summer, and definitely was only charged $3.95 on each day I used it. This is confirmed on their website:
"The charge for TollPass™ Service under options 1 and 2 above is $3.95 per usage day, not to exceed $19.75 per rental period, plus the amount of each toll. There is no TollPass™ Service charge on rental days that you don't use a toll road. "
https://www.alamo.com/en_US/car-rental-faqs/toll-charges/northeast-us-tolls.html
All the cars there have toll pass devices built in, and you can disable them if you want.
I think the difference is some areas, the toll device is not included, and if you have to actually rent one, then they'll charge you each day no matter what. That said, the ~$20 maximum charge for the whole rental on what's likely a >$1000 trip is not a concern for most people I wouldn't think. Makes sense that Boston would include them on all the cars because you practically need to go through AET to leave the airport.
My dad got a bill from the I-65 bridges across the Ohio River both ways, but it took about a month for the bills to arrive
Quote from: Truvelo on May 28, 2020, 01:21:37 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 28, 2020, 01:13:11 PM
Quote from: Truvelo on May 28, 2020, 01:01:58 PM
Whilst I agree that electronic tolling is the way to go it presents a major financial problem for foreign visitors driving rental cars. Where possible I pay cash but this isn't going to last. The two ways of paying on the Mass Pike will cost me bucketloads. Either use the Platepass in the car which charges about $4 a day even for the days it isn't used or have the license plate photographed and the rental car company pays the tolls plus an admin charge of $25+ for each toll.
I dread to think what I'll do when Illinois removes cash payment from the tollways as I regularly fly into O'Hare and drive to Ohio. Without the option of using the tollway I'll be stuck with either using the Kennedy/Dan Ryan and suffer heinous congestion or use surface streets with traffic lights every 1/2 mile burning up loads of time and gas in the process.
Illinois is probably your easiest one. You can shortcut the rental company by paying online.
Yes, there is the option to pay online if a toll has been missed. I remember having problems at the booth near the airport years ago which wouldn't turn green even though I paid the correct amount. This option is only available to US residents but someone on this forum was kind enough to pay for me to avoid a huge fee from the rental car company.
Tru, Illinois has been replacing the old coin baskets with essentially a credit card and cash machine at the mainline and some ramp plazas. it's actually pretty simple. They look like this and are marked Self Service Lane. https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7331128,-88.0352437,3a,72.1y,141.6h,101.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sl2RQnUNCdhTQJ1l2H71KYA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Here's a KTA self-pay machine.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/7127/7447893608_a3a4a22882_3k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/cm9phL)Self pay at KTA plaza in E Lawrence, 8 Oct 2011 (https://flic.kr/p/cm9phL) by John Roever (https://www.flickr.com/photos/rock_chalk_jhawk_ku/), on Flickr
These machines are remotely staffed, meaning they're monitored from off-site, and an attendant is available by call box.
I need to get to this machine. The gold commemorative coins they give out as change are worth it, even from halfway across the country.
I see they still have a place to toss in coins. Cool on them.
This only starts to confirm for me that tolls are a PITA and should just be abolished. Just my opinion, but how much money gets spent maintaining this bureaucracy?
Back in 1997ish, I was a dispatcher for the ISP District 15 which are the Illinois Tollways. I had seen the 1995 tollway statements and logs. That book had everything from total funding and expenses to how much was collected at each plaza. Keep in mind, I Pass was relatively new, the Open Road Tolling was under construction, and the highest tolls where Dixon and DeKalb at 95 cents. They grossed over $325 million in 1995. I would imagine they got to be around $600 million a year with the expansions and increases in tolls. The state would not give up this cash cow.
Quote from: SectorZ on May 29, 2020, 04:15:56 PM
This only starts to confirm for me that tolls are a PITA and should just be abolished. Just my opinion, but how much money gets spent maintaining this bureaucracy?
Less than is collected.
You honestly don't think some bureaucrat somewhere is crunching numbers to make sure this is worthwhile? People make a whole career out of this. Trust them.
It cost me close to $50 to use Platepass on a rental car for a week in Florida. All because the Turnpike extension wouldn't take my cash.
My hot takes:
1. There is no recognized standard transmission protocol for AET.
2. There's a contingency of people in the US who believe that they can be tracked with AET.
3. Toll-by-plate as an AET method is impractical because of the time it takes to notify the vehicle owner and the energy and waste of paper.
4. A lot of Americans do not have bank accounts and operate "cash only".
5. I would prefer some kind of VAT on top of vehicle registration fees that directly covers expenses for highway infrastructure over AET. Anecdotally, CT recently did away with parking fees at state parks for state residents by adding a $15 charge to new and renewed registrations. The fee is waived for senior citizens. I much prefer this than having to worry about having cash on me.
Quote from: Mdcastle on May 30, 2020, 07:51:17 PM
It cost me close to $50 to use Platepass on a rental car for a week in Florida. All because the Turnpike extension wouldn't take my cash.
At that point, I would've just taken US-1 and dealt with traffic. Not even close to worth $50.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 31, 2020, 12:45:23 AM
Quote from: Mdcastle on May 30, 2020, 07:51:17 PM
It cost me close to $50 to use Platepass on a rental car for a week in Florida. All because the Turnpike extension wouldn't take my cash.
At that point, I would've just taken US-1 and dealt with traffic. Not even close to worth $50.
Not that easy for visitors to find their way around to begin with. It's not like people have hours to sit around and plan their drives to avoid certain roads.
Quote from: hobsini2 on May 29, 2020, 08:37:52 PM
Back in 1997ish, I was a dispatcher for the ISP District 15 which are the Illinois Tollways. I had seen the 1995 tollway statements and logs. That book had everything from total funding and expenses to how much was collected at each plaza. Keep in mind, I Pass was relatively new, the Open Road Tolling was under construction, and the highest tolls where Dixon and DeKalb at 95 cents. They grossed over $325 million in 1995. I would imagine they got to be around $600 million a year with the expansions and increases in tolls. The state would not give up this cash cow.
The problem with that is, it's not a cash cow for the state. What money ISTHA takes in gets spent only on ISTHA, and (thankfully, unlike Pennsylvania) not the rest of the state. They're self-supporting roads.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 31, 2020, 12:08:05 AM
1. There is no recognized standard transmission protocol for AET.
Quote
3. Toll-by-plate as an AET method is impractical because of the time it takes to notify the vehicle owner and the energy and waste of paper.
Then why is it so popular? Why does it seem like practically every toll road agency is moving in that direction?
Quote
4. A lot of Americans do not have bank accounts and operate "cash only".
Upthread, I proposed a hypothetical solution to streamline ticket-based toll roads so that they can temporarily store license plate data internally (without having to communicate with other states/agencies) and then accept cash payments from people without transponders (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=26964.msg2503697#msg2503697). I would honestly like to know how feasible this idea is.
"Open" toll roads (Garden State Parkway style as opposed to NJTP style) are already easier to manage and retrofit because they lack the ticket system entirely. They can simply use high-speed mainline gantries with side exits for cash payments, like you see on Illinois Tollways and many Oklahoma Turnpikes.
If AET is so problematic, I imagine the existing AET toll roads could find some space to install side booths with coin baskets and credit card readers.
Quote
5. I would prefer some kind of VAT on top of vehicle registration fees that directly covers expenses for highway infrastructure over AET. Anecdotally, CT recently did away with parking fees at state parks for state residents by adding a $15 charge to new and renewed registrations. The fee is waived for senior citizens. I much prefer this than having to worry about having cash on me.
If VAT is a feasible solution to eliminate tolls and streamline the funding system, then that's probably for the best. As for the concern about having to worry about carrying cash, many toll roads are already accepting credit card payments
at the booths, and the Kansas Turnpike has actually done so for a long time.
(The "lower" Midwest used to be kind of weird in that it was common for people to use credit cards for practically
everything, while back east, many places were still cash-only, so you pretty much
had to carry cash around if you lived or traveled back east. When fast food restaurants started accepting credit cards, it happened in the Kansas City area well before it happened in the Northeast. I remember going on a vacation to the Northeast when I was 19 and remembering a fast food commercial saying you can "pay with a card," only to find out that I couldn't in Pennsylvania.)
Quote
2. There's a contingency of people in the US who believe that they can be tracked with AET.
You don't need AET for that. https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/sensors/privacy-concerns-grow-as-us-police-departments-turn-to-license-plate-readers . Even without a license plate, if you have a cell phone with you, you can most certainly be tracked anywhere you go.
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 31, 2020, 09:17:14 AM
"Open" toll roads (Garden State Parkway style as opposed to NJTP style) are already easier to manage and retrofit because they lack the ticket system entirely. They can simply use high-speed mainline gantries with side exits for cash payments, like you see on Illinois Tollways and many Oklahoma Turnpikes.
I'm not sure what your definition of 'simply' is, but any sort of hybrid system is inheritably more difficult than a single method. If it was all cash, everyone stops and pays. If it's AET, everyone goes thru and those that didn't get a bill or ticket. But when you have options, you need build a system for both methods. Most cash lanes also take EZ Pass, so you need to build for that. You need systems in place for those that didn't pay in the cash lanes. You need to build the infrastructure on the highway for signage to inform motorists what lanes to be in approaching the toll plaza. You need to build a toll plaza where motorists can safely coexist between higher speed electronic toll traffic and slower speed cash paying traffic. And this is just the tip of it.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 31, 2020, 10:41:14 AM
I'm not sure what your definition of 'simply' is, but any sort of hybrid system is inheritably more difficult than a single method. If it was all cash, everyone stops and pays. If it's AET, everyone goes thru and those that didn't get a bill or ticket. But when you have options, you need build a system for both methods. Most cash lanes also take EZ Pass, so you need to build for that. You need systems in place for those that didn't pay in the cash lanes. You need to build the infrastructure on the highway for signage to inform motorists what lanes to be in approaching the toll plaza. You need to build a toll plaza where motorists can safely coexist between higher speed electronic toll traffic and slower speed cash paying traffic. And this is just the tip of it.
My point was they are simpler to design and retrofit than ticket-based systems. With a ticket-based system, anyone without a transponder has to stop to collect a ticket at an entry point, which adds to logistical complexity in the overall design, even if it means fewer mainline toll plazas. Mainline toll plazas are simpler in the sense that they repeat a pattern rather than requiring a more-complex design of entry-versus-exit differentiation. Consider a standard diamond interchange on a ticket-based system versus one with ramp tolls on an open system. The ticket-based system needs a booth on all four ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.043665,-95.0948966,580m/data=!3m1!1e3). The open system will likely only have booths on two of the ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1064253,-87.8680823,784m/data=!3m1!1e3), and they're there to capture tolls from drivers who don't go through a mainline plaza.
It was a relative use of the word "simply."
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 31, 2020, 08:14:29 AM
Not that easy for visitors to find their way around to begin with. It's not like people have hours to sit around and plan their drives to avoid certain roads.
Google Maps provides the options of "avoid highways" / "avoid tolls" / "avoid ferries". i thought these were pretty standard options on most satnavs.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 31, 2020, 08:14:29 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 31, 2020, 12:45:23 AM
Quote from: Mdcastle on May 30, 2020, 07:51:17 PM
It cost me close to $50 to use Platepass on a rental car for a week in Florida. All because the Turnpike extension wouldn't take my cash.
At that point, I would've just taken US-1 and dealt with traffic. Not even close to worth $50.
Not that easy for visitors to find their way around to begin with. It's not like people have hours to sit around and plan their drives to avoid certain roads.
Most GPS, including Google Maps and Waze, have options to avoid tolls. When I visited California, I avoided toll roads at all costs because I did not want to incur rental car fees. Even some that avoiding required me sitting in traffic elsewhere, still worth it over paying fees. If I the option to simply pay the toll and no rental car mess, then I probably would've done it.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on May 31, 2020, 11:35:50 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 31, 2020, 08:14:29 AM
Not that easy for visitors to find their way around to begin with. It's not like people have hours to sit around and plan their drives to avoid certain roads.
Google Maps provides the options of "avoid highways" / "avoid tolls" / "avoid ferries". i thought these were pretty standard options on most satnavs.
The built-in devices in two of our cars give those options, though they won't let you select "Minimize Freeways" on trips of over 100 miles.
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 31, 2020, 09:17:14 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 31, 2020, 12:08:05 AM
2. There's a contingency of people in the US who believe that they can be tracked with AET.
You don't need AET for that. https://spectrum.ieee.org/cars-that-think/transportation/sensors/privacy-concerns-grow-as-us-police-departments-turn-to-license-plate-readers . Even without a license plate, if you have a cell phone with you, you can most certainly be tracked anywhere you go.
Quite right, but it should be evident by now that facts don't get in the way of many people's opinions. Most people don't realize or flat out don't care about the tracking capabilities via cell phones, but tracking via AET is the flavor-of-the-day hot topic of outrage.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on May 29, 2020, 11:12:26 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on May 29, 2020, 04:15:56 PM
This only starts to confirm for me that tolls are a PITA and should just be abolished. Just my opinion, but how much money gets spent maintaining this bureaucracy?
Less than is collected.
You honestly don't think some bureaucrat somewhere is crunching numbers to make sure this is worthwhile? People make a whole career out of this. Trust them.
Not the point. Does the average toll authority turn over to the state a "profit" every year? Sure. BUT, with so much money coming in, and it operating 'off-budget" in the legislative sense (the legislature does no appropriate any $$ to it, and thus out of sight-out of mind) most toll authorities pay many time what similar jobs in the regular highway department pay, have dozens if not hundreds of featherbedded useless positions, and so on.
Yes toll roads make a "profit". They should make many times more profit than they do.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on May 31, 2020, 11:35:50 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 31, 2020, 08:14:29 AM
Not that easy for visitors to find their way around to begin with. It's not like people have hours to sit around and plan their drives to avoid certain roads.
Google Maps provides the options of "avoid highways" / "avoid tolls" / "avoid ferries". i thought these were pretty standard options on most satnavs.
And for people who use *gasp* paper maps for navigating?
Quote from: kphoger on May 31, 2020, 03:18:21 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on May 31, 2020, 11:35:50 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 31, 2020, 08:14:29 AM
Not that easy for visitors to find their way around to begin with. It's not like people have hours to sit around and plan their drives to avoid certain roads.
Google Maps provides the options of "avoid highways" / "avoid tolls" / "avoid ferries". i thought these were pretty standard options on most satnavs.
And for people who use *gasp* paper maps for navigating?
I'd say there would be a minority of people using paper maps vs. GPS, but even then, many maps distinguish toll roads from free roads.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 31, 2020, 03:24:52 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 31, 2020, 03:18:21 PM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on May 31, 2020, 11:35:50 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 31, 2020, 08:14:29 AM
Not that easy for visitors to find their way around to begin with. It's not like people have hours to sit around and plan their drives to avoid certain roads.
Google Maps provides the options of "avoid highways" / "avoid tolls" / "avoid ferries". i thought these were pretty standard options on most satnavs.
And for people who use *gasp* paper maps for navigating?
I'd say there would be a minority of people using paper maps vs. GPS, but even then, many maps distinguish toll roads from free roads.
The number of people not using Google Maps, Mapquest, or a sat-nav device may not be a huge majority, it may be a minority, but it is a sizeable population nonetheless. Think how many people on a given day, for example, are following directions given them personally by someone else. For example, a businessman who was given directions from the airport by a partner in an e-mail. Or a delivery driver calling a customer for directions over the phone. Or an aunt driving to her niece's baby shower from out of state, with a hand-drawn map given her by another relative.
As to the fact that many maps distinguish toll roads from free roads, remember that the start of the conversation was the fact that a particular toll road didn't accept cash. Maps
don't distinguish between toll roads that take cash and those that don't take cash.
Quote from: kphoger on May 31, 2020, 03:30:46 PM
The number of people not using Google Maps, Mapquest, or a sat-nav device may not be a huge majority, it may be a minority, but it is a sizeable population nonetheless. Think how many people on a given day, for example, are following directions given them personally by someone else. For example, a businessman who was given directions from the airport by a partner in an e-mail. Or a delivery driver calling a customer for directions over the phone. Or an aunt driving to her niece's baby shower from out of state, with a hand-drawn map given her by another relative.
Whenever I go somewhere I'm not already familiar with, I just glance at Google Maps for a few minutes and scribble down enough of a map on a piece of paper so I won't forget (usually just three turns off the last freeway exit). But I probably have more of a U.S. road map in my head than the average person.[/bragging]
Quote
As to the fact that many maps distinguish toll roads from free roads, remember that the start of the conversation was the fact that a particular toll road didn't accept cash. Maps don't distinguish between toll roads that take cash and those that don't take cash.
That's a good point. Not a problem for most people, but if you're in a rental car and expecting to be able to pay cash or use a credit card, it puts you in a hard spot.
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 31, 2020, 09:17:14 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 31, 2020, 12:08:05 AM
1. There is no recognized standard transmission protocol for AET.
Quote
3. Toll-by-plate as an AET method is impractical because of the time it takes to notify the vehicle owner and the energy and waste of paper.
Then why is it so popular? Why does it seem like practically every toll road agency is moving in that direction?
It's popular with the toll authorities. I'm not sure how popular it is with users. Bill by mail horror stories are everywhere.
I know my parents won't take the Thruway right now, due to the lack of cash. Dad keeps saying he'll have to get E-ZPass, but for how little they use the Thruway, I could just as easily see them not taking it again. He seems to prefer NY 96/NY 444/NY 5 and US 20 over I-90/NY 332 to get to Canandaigua Lake anyways.
Quote from: vdeane on May 31, 2020, 09:28:44 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 31, 2020, 09:17:14 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on May 31, 2020, 12:08:05 AM
1. There is no recognized standard transmission protocol for AET.
Quote
3. Toll-by-plate as an AET method is impractical because of the time it takes to notify the vehicle owner and the energy and waste of paper.
Then why is it so popular? Why does it seem like practically every toll road agency is moving in that direction?
It's popular with the toll authorities. I'm not sure how popular it is with users. Bill by mail horror stories are everywhere.
I know my parents won't take the Thruway right now, due to the lack of cash. Dad keeps saying he'll have to get E-ZPass, but for how little they use the Thruway, I could just as easily see them not taking it again. He seems to prefer NY 96/NY 444/NY 5 and US 20 over I-90/NY 332 to get to Canandaigua Lake anyways.
Likewise, I avoided using TX-130 for the first few years of its existence precisely because I didn't trust pay-by-plate. I didn't trust the agency contracted by TxTag to get my correct Kansas billing address.
When I finally did use it, I ended up paying a whole bunch of tolls from previous years. Before using pay-by-plate on TX-130, I had a day pass account for the Camino Colombia Toll Road (TX-255). Each year, I made a round trip to Mexico using the CCTR, with anywhere from one to three vehicles. Ahead of time, I would call TxTag and update my account to have that year's correct vehicle and license plate info on file for our group. Apparently, unbeknownst to me, some years I didn't do that correctly, which means an unknown car with Kansas plates drove through the CCTR gantry but TxTag didn't know where to send the bill. Then, once the TX-130 pay-by-plate gantry was able to peg my license plate to my billing address, I received all those back-tolls on one statement to pay.
Quote from: GaryV on May 28, 2020, 03:45:13 PMBut still, what incentive does the Michigan Secretary of State have for giving my information to the ON-407 collector? Maybe that's part of the surcharge for billing by mail - that they have to give MI a piece of the action to pay for the info?
From a compliance standpoint, I ask the opposite question: if I drive on an electronic-only toll road in another jurisdiction without intending to pay, what incentive is there for KDOR not to knife me in the back by giving up my license plate information? This is part of the reason I avoided Hwy. 407 the last time I visited Toronto.
Quote from: SectorZ on May 29, 2020, 04:15:56 PMThis only starts to confirm for me that tolls are a PITA and should just be abolished. Just my opinion, but how much money gets spent maintaining this bureaucracy?
The tradeoff between upfront and recurring costs gets complicated for electronic toll collection, but in the old days, the rule of thumb was that collection expense was about one-third of revenues. The cost of collecting the tax on liquid fuels for motor vehicles is about 1% of revenues (generally it is collected at the terminal, meaning the tax has already been paid long before the fuel is pumped into the storage tanks at the gas station). Collection expense this low is basically impossible to achieve even with electronic toll collection because of the need to support individualized billing.
The overheads associated with toll collection are a large part of the reason relying on tolls as the principal (or sole) method of paying for express highway infrastructure results in its being underprovided (i.e., there are corridors where the potential savings to users would more than pay for the costs, but it is not available). On the other hand, toll collection makes sense if you are looking to reduce congestion by pricing a segment of existing or potential users off the facility.
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 01, 2020, 11:20:00 AM
Quote from: GaryV on May 28, 2020, 03:45:13 PMBut still, what incentive does the Michigan Secretary of State have for giving my information to the ON-407 collector? Maybe that's part of the surcharge for billing by mail - that they have to give MI a piece of the action to pay for the info?
From a compliance standpoint, I ask the opposite question: if I drive on an electronic-only toll road in another jurisdiction without intending to pay, what incentive is there for KDOR not to knife me in the back by giving up my license plate information? This is part of the reason I avoided Hwy. 407 the last time I visited Toronto.
Why would you get on a toll road without intending to pay?
You'd have to be expecting to get a bill at some point or another.
Quote from: webny99 on June 01, 2020, 11:33:46 AM
Why would you get on a toll road without intending to pay?
You'd have to be expecting to get a bill at some point or another.
See below.
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 01:59:32 PM
As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate.
Similarly, it was known that Ontario plates could pass thru the Grand Island toll gantries on I-190 and never receive a bill (which has since been addressed):
https://buffalonews.com/2019/10/24/no-more-free-ride-ontario-drivers-now-must-pay-to-use-cashless-tolls-on-thruway/
As far as I know, there is still no mechanism for TxTag to collect tolls from Mexican drivers. So, unless I'm mistaken, using TX-130 on the way from Nuevo Laredo to Dallas is toll-free with Mexican plates. I can easily imagine Mexican drivers deciding to use TX-130 only because they'll never have to pay the $42.46 round-trip toll.
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 01:59:32 PM
As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate.
Quote from: jmacswimmer on June 01, 2020, 11:46:29 AM
Similarly, it was known that Ontario plates could pass thru the Grand Island toll gantries on I-190 and never receive a bill (which has since been addressed):
I would never use a toll road (or toll lane, to a lesser extent) and assume I was getting a free ride. I would assume a bill is coming at some point, pay it if it ever came, and consider myself lucky if it didn't.
But then, knowing whether or not I would be billed would not be high on the list of factors of deciding whether to use the facility. I would automatically use it if the time savings significantly outweighed the potential cost, which is probably "yes" during rush hour or on highly time sensitive trips, and "no" otherwise, weighted according to how expensive it is (so, more likely to be "no" for ON 407, for example).
In the case of Dallas, as I mentioned up-thread, we had multiple field techs running routes every day with out-of-state license plates on their work trucks. So, for them, it was certainly an advantage to use the toll roads for free–faster travel times between customers at no extra cost to them or us.
Quote from: kphoger on June 01, 2020, 12:14:10 PM
In the case of Dallas, as I mentioned up-thread, we had multiple field techs running routes every day with out-of-state license plates on their work trucks. So, for them, it was certainly an advantage to use the toll roads for free–faster travel times between customers at no extra cost to them or us.
Of course. I'm not saying it's not advantageous, or should not be done.
But it should be done with the expectation that it's on borrowed time at best, while keeping the possibility of retroactive billing in mind and not using it just "because you can" unless there
is a legitimate time savings.
Quote from: jmacswimmer on June 01, 2020, 11:46:29 AM
Similarly, it was known that Ontario plates could pass thru the Grand Island toll gantries on I-190 and never receive a bill (which has since been addressed):
Should also note that in the case of this Grand Island example, Canadian drivers are going to be using the bridge regardless of whether or not they have to pay. It's only $1.00 flat rate, and there are no alternate routes (unless you count Tonawanda, which I definitely don't).
Quote from: GaryV on May 28, 2020, 03:15:40 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 03:13:44 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 28, 2020, 02:57:47 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 28, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 01:59:32 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 28, 2020, 07:37:57 AM
Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.
I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states. As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate. Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.
Hah, out-of-state discount! :P
Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compact
Many states and even some provinces share information, but not all.
Does that information sharing extend to getting an out-of-state driver's info based solely on a license plate number?
I got a bill from ON 407 based on my Michigan plate. It took about 2 months to get it, but it did come. So yes, they share.
And they slap the late fee on you
I don't believe that NY or MA have any toll horror stories.
Quote from: kphoger on June 01, 2020, 12:14:10 PM
In the case of Dallas, as I mentioned up-thread, we had multiple field techs running routes every day with out-of-state license plates on their work trucks. So, for them, it was certainly an advantage to use the toll roads for free–faster travel times between customers at no extra cost to them or us.
I'm still waiting for a bill for using the Bush Turnpike in Dallas 10 years ago.
However, I had a couple of misreads (actually, no-reads) from Pennsylvania a few years ago. One on the PA Turnpike (Bedford, I think) and one on the Mon-Fayette expressway; both on the same day. Got two separate mail violations with photos of the back of my vehicle. They'd gotten my Kentucky license plate information, and this was long before Kentucky was using E-ZPass on the Louisville bridges. I sent them a copy of my E-ZPass statement showing proof I have an E-ZPass account, and all was well.
I never received a bill from NTTA, which was now 4 1/2 years ago.
FDOT on the other hand will come find you even if it takes eight months to get you your bill.
I think I've heard at least one case of a toll agency billing a driver years after the fact, once they got access to a new licence plate database. So in that sense, not getting a bill is not the same thing as home free. Plus a bill could be lost in the mail, too. Yet more reasons why I don't want anything to do with bill by mail.
Quote from: 1 on June 01, 2020, 01:30:23 PM
I don't believe that NY or MA have any toll horror stories.
NY actually has a ton:
https://dailygazette.com/article/2019/07/21/editorial-protect-drivers-from-unfair-toll-penalties
https://riverdalepress.com/stories/think-tolls-are-high-wait-until-you-see-the-fees,64982
(If you're wondering what happened with the Toll Payer Protection Act, Cuomo vetoed it again)
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on June 01, 2020, 01:16:44 PM
Quote from: GaryV on May 28, 2020, 03:15:40 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 03:13:44 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 28, 2020, 02:57:47 PM
Quote from: stridentweasel on May 28, 2020, 02:47:33 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 28, 2020, 01:59:32 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 28, 2020, 07:37:57 AM
Regarding your subject line, a few years ago mtantillo of this forum noted that some states charge other states for access to their license plate data, which is surely one holdup on a nationwide AET system based on toll-by-plate.
I don't think states even have access to other states' DMV records unless they have a specific agreement with each of those other states. As recently as six years ago, as I recall, it was common knowledge around here that one would never be charged a toll for using the electronic toll lanes in Dallas with a Kansas license plate. Back when my company had a regional office in Dallas, they had a lot of company trucks that had been transferred from other states, and those field techs made it a daily habit to use the toll roads between job sites, but our company never got billed for the tolls.
Hah, out-of-state discount! :P
Is the same true of speed cameras and red light cameras?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver_License_Compact
Many states and even some provinces share information, but not all.
Does that information sharing extend to getting an out-of-state driver's info based solely on a license plate number?
I got a bill from ON 407 based on my Michigan plate. It took about 2 months to get it, but it did come. So yes, they share.
And they slap the late fee on you
They can't charge a late fee on a bill that was never sent, because they didn't know who I was until MI SOS told them.
Quote from: webny99 on June 01, 2020, 12:06:50 PM
I would automatically use it if the time savings significantly outweighed the potential cost, which is probably "yes" during rush hour or on highly time sensitive trips, and "no" otherwise, weighted according to how expensive it is (so, more likely to be "no" for ON 407, for example).
The charge on ON-407 on our return trip was well worth it to relieve the anxiety my wife had on ON-401 on the way out.
Quote from: 1 on June 01, 2020, 01:30:23 PMI don't believe that NY or MA have any toll horror stories.
There is none current for either that I know of, but in the past the Thruway used to discard reads from transponders mounted in cars that exceeded the speed limit going through tolling zones, and hit the drivers with toll violations.
Quote from: webny99 on June 01, 2020, 12:26:34 PMOf course. I'm not saying it's not advantageous, or should not be done.
But it should be done with the expectation that it's on borrowed time at best, while keeping the possibility of retroactive billing in mind and not using it just "because you can" unless there is a legitimate time savings.
What you need is certainty as to amount and incidence (in time and space) of the cost, so you can make a decision as to whether to take the toll road on the basis of full information. This kind of certainty is provided not just by websites and signs giving rates and conditions of use, but also by legal protection against the toll authority hoarding license plate data it can't match until it can hit you with enormous bills years down the road, as NTTA (for example) has done.
I realize toll authorities want to eliminate takers to save money, but I've always wanted to take the extra minute just to pay a toll on site and be done with it. I don't want to have to deal with it weeks or months down the road.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 01, 2020, 05:19:27 PM
I realize toll authorities want to eliminate takers to save money, but I've always wanted to take the extra minute just to pay a toll on site and be done with it. I don't want to have to deal with it weeks or months down the road.
Where they're not replacing toll collectors with AET, they're replacing toll collectors with self-pay machines.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 01, 2020, 05:19:27 PM
I realize toll authorities want to eliminate takers to save money, but I've always wanted to take the extra minute just to pay a toll on site and be done with it. I don't want to have to deal with it weeks or months down the road.
That's why programs like EZPass are the best of both worlds, and are close enough to paying the toll on site IMO. I realize you may not be familiar with these types of programs being from a state (and extended region) that doesn't have many toll roads. You essentially prefund your account, and the balance reduces every time you go through a toll booth. You can set it up to auto-refill when it falls below a certain threshold, but if that's not for you, there's a message sign at the booth that warns you when your balance is low (at least on the Thruway... not sure about other states).
Quote from: webny99 on June 01, 2020, 09:43:10 PM
That's why programs like EZPass are the best of both worlds, and are close enough to paying the toll on site IMO. I realize you may not be familiar with these types of programs being from a state (and extended region) that doesn't have many toll roads. You essentially prefund your account, and the balance reduces every time you go through a toll booth. You can set it up to auto-refill when it falls below a certain threshold, but if that's not for you, there's a message sign at the booth that warns you when your balance is low (at least on the Thruway... not sure about other states).
I'm not a fan of roads that
require you to have a transponder, and I can't think of any examples outside of Texas (except for the truck transponder requirement on the 407 ETR in Ontario).
Quote from: stridentweasel on June 02, 2020, 06:50:42 AM
I'm not a fan of roads that require you to have a transponder, and I can't think of any examples outside of Texas (except for the truck transponder requirement on the 407 ETR in Ontario).
The Express Lanes network in northern Virginia (parts of I-66, I-95, I-395, I-495) requires an E-ZPass transponder.
Cross-post from the PA Turnpike News thread that I think is also quite relevant here:
Quote from: Crown Victoria on June 02, 2020, 03:36:58 PM
The PTC will lay off its toll collectors and make cashless tolling permanent, effective immediately:
https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/pennsylvania-turnpike-to-lay-off-500-employees-make-cashless-tolling-permanent/