https://www.wxyz.com/getting-around-metro-detroit/these-are-the-highways-mdot-wants-to-study-to-become-possible-toll-roads
Source is above.
Let's see what happens, I guess.
Ugh. We need fewer toll roads, not more.
Hope they at least join E-ZPass if they do end up tolling things.
Wonderful I'll figure out how to shunpike whichever highway they choose. Btw, interstates aren't suppose to be toll roads, the ones that currently are were grandfathered in, these highways can't be grandfathered in now.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 14, 2020, 03:19:30 PM
Btw, interstates aren't suppose to be toll roads, the ones that currently are were grandfathered in,
Is that true of I-355 in Illinois?
Quote from: kphoger on July 14, 2020, 03:25:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 14, 2020, 03:19:30 PM
Btw, interstates aren't suppose to be toll roads, the ones that currently are were grandfathered in,
Is that true of I-355 in Illinois?
And Future Interstate 490 in Illinois, that is under construction and will open as an ISTHA Toll Road in a few years?
The problem is they have to create an airtight restriction so they don't have crap like PTC tolls going to SEPTA and other Philly-area non-road stuff.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on July 14, 2020, 03:27:13 PM
The problem is they have to create an airtight restriction so they don't have crap like PTC tolls going to SEPTA and other Philly-area non-road stuff.
I have never researched where the revenue from the Minnesota HOT Lanes goes...does MNDOT have any restrictions on where that revenue goes?
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 14, 2020, 03:30:58 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on July 14, 2020, 03:27:13 PM
The problem is they have to create an airtight restriction so they don't have crap like PTC tolls going to SEPTA and other Philly-area non-road stuff.
I have never researched where the revenue from the Minnesota HOT Lanes goes...does MNDOT have any restrictions on where that revenue goes?
State law restricts it to usage on the specific corridor it was collected; so for example, money collected on I-35W must be used on I-35W; it can't be used on the MnPass sections of 394 or 35E. But the difference is MnPass's mission is to ease congestion, not generate revenue.
This is not going to fly. If I-94 gets tolled, everybody is just going to shunpike US-12.
Quote from: MrManlet on July 14, 2020, 04:10:06 PM
This is not going to fly. If I-94 gets tolled, everybody is just going to shunpike US-12.
I-90 in Massachusetts has US 20 paralleling it. I-87 in New York has US 9W. I-95 in Maine has US 1 for part of the route. People will still take the toll road.
It's more than an hour difference between New Buffalo and Detroit between the two routes, though US 12 is slightly shorter in mileage.
If there is concerns about deterring tourism why not just toll commercial traffic?
If a parallel US highway is to be a viable shunpike it needs to be divided with grade separated junctions. If it's a two lane road passing through every town and city then the extra time and gas used just isn't worth it.
On one of my early visits to Chicago I tried using US 45 to avoid I-294 from O'Hare. I soon got sick and tired of stop/starting at traffic lights every half mile that I took the quickest route to 294 and reluctantly paid the tolls.
In the case of Michigan none of the routes being considered has a decent shunpike.
I know this is dependent on who you ask and how much flexibility you have travel-wise, but it would have to be upwards of $20 in tolls for me to take US-12 instead of I-94. Maybe more.
Now if I had a nice afternoon with plenty of time to kill, I would do otherwise, but I think as long as the tolls are reasonably priced people would take them in a second.
I like how everyone's only bringing up I-94, makes me amused :D
I was surprised initially to see US-127 on the list of highways that they were considering tolling. Aren't federal highways supposed to not be tolled, unless they're concurrent with an interstate that's tolled? (E.g. I-90/US-51 through Rockford)
In any case, I hope that if they decide to toll these roads, the tolls are not so expensive. If the tolls are outrageous (and I'm talking more expensive than using I-90 from Lake Station to Toledo), then when I go to Ann Arbor to visit my family, I'll probably use I-90 to I-475/US-23 to get there.
Quote from: ChimpOnTheWheel on July 14, 2020, 05:31:39 PM
I like how everyone's only bringing up I-94, makes me amused :D
I was surprised initially to see US-127 on the list of highways that they were considering tolling. Aren't federal highways supposed to not be tolled, unless they're concurrent with an interstate that's tolled? (E.g. I-90/US-51 through Rockford)
In any case, I hope that if they decide to toll these roads, the tolls are not so expensive. If the tolls are outrageous (and I'm talking more expensive than using I-90 from Lake Station to Toledo), then when I go to Ann Arbor to visit my family, I'll probably use I-90 to I-475/US-23 to get there.
Isn't there a Toll US 301 in Delaware now, also? And that does not include an interstate multiplex
Quote from: ChimpOnTheWheel on July 14, 2020, 05:31:39 PM
In any case, I hope that if they decide to toll these roads, the tolls are not so expensive. If the tolls are outrageous (and I'm talking more expensive than using I-90 from Lake Station to Toledo), then when I go to Ann Arbor to visit my family, I'll probably use I-90 to I-475/US-23 to get there.
Shh, be quiet! Someone on MI DOT might read the forum and get the idea to toll I-475/US-23 as well. ;)
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 14, 2020, 06:31:34 PM
Quote from: ChimpOnTheWheel on July 14, 2020, 05:31:39 PM
I like how everyone's only bringing up I-94, makes me amused :D
I was surprised initially to see US-127 on the list of highways that they were considering tolling. Aren't federal highways supposed to not be tolled, unless they're concurrent with an interstate that's tolled? (E.g. I-90/US-51 through Rockford)
In any case, I hope that if they decide to toll these roads, the tolls are not so expensive. If the tolls are outrageous (and I'm talking more expensive than using I-90 from Lake Station to Toledo), then when I go to Ann Arbor to visit my family, I'll probably use I-90 to I-475/US-23 to get there.
Isn't there a Toll US 301 in Delaware now, also? And that does not include an interstate multiplex
It's supposed to be no toll highways on US routes, but for some reason that was done and with no explanation to be found why it was allowed.
Quote from: vdeane on July 14, 2020, 02:24:07 PM
Ugh. We need fewer toll roads, not more.
Hope they at least join E-ZPass if they do end up tolling things.
I would say you're right, but funding is a mess at the moment in many states. in indiana tolling 65 and 70 is inevitable. it's being studied now.
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 14, 2020, 03:27:04 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 14, 2020, 03:25:13 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 14, 2020, 03:19:30 PM
Btw, interstates aren't suppose to be toll roads, the ones that currently are were grandfathered in,
Is that true of I-355 in Illinois?
And Future Interstate 490 in Illinois, that is under construction and will open as an ISTHA Toll Road in a few years?
There's no federal money being spent on I-490, nor was there any on I-355. If the road is up to interstate standards, the feds will consider integrating it into the interstate system.
Quote from: silverback1065 on July 14, 2020, 08:43:24 PM
Quote from: vdeane on July 14, 2020, 02:24:07 PM
Ugh. We need fewer toll roads, not more.
Hope they at least join E-ZPass if they do end up tolling things.
I would say you're right, but funding is a mess at the moment in many states. in indiana tolling 65 and 70 is inevitable. it's being studied now.
I propose a unique tolling model for I-65 and I-70. Two axle vehicles are 3 cents per mile at all times. Vehicles with more than two axles are 3 cents per mile from 6:30 pm to 6:30 am and 30 cents per mile from 6:30 am to 6:30 pm.
If at least some of the tolls go to upgrading deficient roads *cough*US-23*cough*, I'd be in, especially if it's E-ZPass compatible
I'm somewhat surprised that I-69 did not make the cut. This is a state that could use some badly-needed transportation money, given the poor quality of many roads in general.
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 14, 2020, 06:31:34 PM
Quote from: ChimpOnTheWheel on July 14, 2020, 05:31:39 PM
I like how everyone's only bringing up I-94, makes me amused :D
I was surprised initially to see US-127 on the list of highways that they were considering tolling. Aren't federal highways supposed to not be tolled, unless they're concurrent with an interstate that's tolled? (E.g. I-90/US-51 through Rockford)
In any case, I hope that if they decide to toll these roads, the tolls are not so expensive. If the tolls are outrageous (and I'm talking more expensive than using I-90 from Lake Station to Toledo), then when I go to Ann Arbor to visit my family, I'll probably use I-90 to I-475/US-23 to get there.
Isn't there a Toll US 301 in Delaware now, also? And that does not include an interstate multiplex
A portion of US-17 was recently tolled in Chesapeake, VA to fund the construction of the new Veterans Bridge over the Elizabeth River.
Quote from: ftballfan on July 15, 2020, 10:38:56 AM
If at least some of the tolls go to upgrading deficient roads *cough*US-23*cough*, I'd be in, especially if it's E-ZPass compatible
And I-94 between Ann Arbor and Benton Harbor.
RIP toll free Detroit-Chicago.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 15, 2020, 12:36:58 PM
RIP toll free Detroit-Chicago.
I don't see that happening at all.
Quote from: kphoger on July 15, 2020, 12:44:23 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 15, 2020, 12:36:58 PM
RIP toll free Detroit-Chicago.
I doubt it.
If I-94 is tolled the only toll free option would be on all two lane roads.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 15, 2020, 01:50:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 15, 2020, 12:44:23 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 15, 2020, 12:36:58 PM
RIP toll free Detroit-Chicago.
I doubt it.
If I-94 is tolled the only toll free option would be on all two lane roads.
Not really. Just pretty far out of the way to avoid the tolls while staying on 4-lane (or higher) highways, but doable.
Unless the toll rates are insanely high, probably not gonna be worth it in terms of time and fuel to shunpike something along the lines of US 30->I-69
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 15, 2020, 01:50:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 15, 2020, 12:44:23 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 15, 2020, 12:36:58 PM
RIP toll free Detroit-Chicago.
I doubt it.
If I-94 is tolled the only toll free option would be on all two lane roads.
I meant I doubt I-94 in Michigan will be tolled.
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 15, 2020, 01:56:23 PM
Unless the toll rates are insanely high
Yeah, this is Michigan we're talking about here. Of course the toll rates will be crazy.
Quote from: renegade on July 15, 2020, 02:41:26 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 15, 2020, 01:56:23 PM
Unless the toll rates are insanely high
Yeah, this is Michigan we're talking about here. Of course the toll rates will be crazy.
And then there will be a massive court fight over whether tolls are a form of taxes, and thus any implementation must be approved in a referendum.
It's just a study. I'm sure those 4 roads specifically were not singled out as the only ones where tolls might be applied. I agree, I-69 should be included as it's a potential shun-pike for Canada-bound trucks.
Quote from: GaryV on July 15, 2020, 04:10:02 PM
Quote from: renegade on July 15, 2020, 02:41:26 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 15, 2020, 01:56:23 PM
Unless the toll rates are insanely high
Yeah, this is Michigan we're talking about here. Of course the toll rates will be crazy.
And then there will be a massive court fight over whether tolls are a form of taxes, and thus any implementation must be approved in a referendum.
It's just a study. I'm sure those 4 roads specifically were not singled out as the only ones where tolls might be applied. I agree, I-69 should be included as it's a potential shun-pike for Canada-bound trucks.
Or maybe that is the route MDOT wants Canada-bound trucks to follow (I-69), possibly alleviating some truck traffic from Detroit. Although I am not sure who in their right mind would go through Detroit to begin with if they could take I-69, regardless of tolled I-94 or not.
I-94 isn't even the quickest route in to Detroit. Following M-14 to I-96 is quicker than taking I-94 or vice versa coming from Detroit. I-69 is indeed a long-distance bypass of Detroit. The only areas where you will find heavier traffic following I-69 is with the concurrency with I-96 around Lansing and near Flint.
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 15, 2020, 01:56:23 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 15, 2020, 01:50:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 15, 2020, 12:44:23 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 15, 2020, 12:36:58 PM
RIP toll free Detroit-Chicago.
I doubt it.
If I-94 is tolled the only toll free option would be on all two lane roads.
Not really. Just pretty far out of the way to avoid the tolls while staying on 4-lane (or higher) highways, but doable.
Unless the toll rates are insanely high, probably not gonna be worth it in terms of time and fuel to shunpike something along the lines of US 30->I-69
US 30 -> US 24 -> I-75 would be easier. There's a lot of highway switches on the bypasses of Fort Wayne and Toledo, but it's all four lanes.
Quote from: aboges26 on July 15, 2020, 08:04:56 PM
Or maybe that is the route MDOT wants Canada-bound trucks to follow (I-69), possibly alleviating some truck traffic from Detroit. Although I am not sure who in their right mind would go through Detroit to begin with if they could take I-69, regardless of tolled I-94 or not.
There are several trucking terminals in Detroit, thus why Detroit—Windsor is a much more heavily trafficked border crossing for trucks than Port Huron—Sarnia.
Quote from: skluth on July 16, 2020, 02:12:57 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 15, 2020, 01:56:23 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 15, 2020, 01:50:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 15, 2020, 12:44:23 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 15, 2020, 12:36:58 PM
RIP toll free Detroit-Chicago.
I doubt it.
If I-94 is tolled the only toll free option would be on all two lane roads.
Not really. Just pretty far out of the way to avoid the tolls while staying on 4-lane (or higher) highways, but doable.
Unless the toll rates are insanely high, probably not gonna be worth it in terms of time and fuel to shunpike something along the lines of US 30->I-69
US 30 -> US 24 -> I-75 would be easier. There's a lot of highway switches on the bypasses of Fort Wayne and Toledo, but it's all four lanes.
That route only adds 46 miles and an hour and 10 minutes to the travel time. I think at that point I'd just rather pay the toll.
Quote from: rawmustard on July 16, 2020, 09:42:34 AM
There are several trucking terminals in Detroit, thus why Detroit—Windsor is a much more heavily trafficked border crossing for trucks than Port Huron—Sarnia.
Yep. Moving truck traffic to another location doesn't really work if their dispatch operations remain where they are. This is part of the reason the Camino Colombia Toll Road was such a flop in Texas.
Detroit-Windsor is pure hell for all vehicles. I think that's why the Ambassador Bridge doesn't have much of a life span left and already mentioned it'll at least have to have a massive overhaul done to it to keep it going.
Detroit or anywhere is difficult to bypass when your operations are there and most Chicago-Toronto traffic will most likely have a stop in Detroit as well and if not will use I-69 to ON-402 to ON-401. Wouldn't most traffic have a stop somewhere in or near Detroit though?
I could see US-127 but this is gonna be interesting to watch unfold. If I-94 gets tolled, yikes. That means I-80/90 and 94 will be competing for toll $$$
Quote from: ET21 on July 19, 2020, 01:45:07 PM
I could see US-127 but this is gonna be interesting to watch unfold. If I-94 gets tolled, yikes. That means I-80/90 and 94 will be competing for toll $$$
If tolls will be considered in MI, why not toll US-23 temporarily until the whole stretch between M-14 and I-96 is 6 laned? Would remove a lot of the traffic jams off that corridor.
To
Quote from: MrManlet on July 19, 2020, 01:50:41 PM
Quote from: ET21 on July 19, 2020, 01:45:07 PM
I could see US-127 but this is gonna be interesting to watch unfold. If I-94 gets tolled, yikes. That means I-80/90 and 94 will be competing for toll $$$
If tolls will be considered in MI, why not toll US-23 temporarily until the whole stretch between M-14 and I-96 is 6 laned? Would remove a lot of the traffic jams off that corridor.
That stretch needs at least 4 lanes in each direction. And you can go farther south to at least I-94 with that.
I wonder if Michigan realizes they lose federal funding if they toll existing general-purpose lanes on interstates.
Quote from: US 89 on July 19, 2020, 04:06:35 PM
I wonder if Michigan realizes they lose federal funding if they toll existing general-purpose lanes on interstates.
There's no dedicated funding source for interstate highways, and haven't been for over 20 years.
Not sure if that provision applies anymore with no more dedicated funding.
Either way, I'd be surprised if a tolling program is actually implemented. It's been discussed along other major corridors years ago in Virginia and North Carolina, and went nowhere.
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 19, 2020, 04:47:18 PM
Quote from: US 89 on July 19, 2020, 04:06:35 PM
I wonder if Michigan realizes they lose federal funding if they toll existing general-purpose lanes on interstates.
There's no dedicated funding source for interstate highways, and haven't been for over 20 years.
Not sure if that provision applies anymore with no more dedicated funding.
Either way, I'd be surprised if a tolling program is actually implemented. It's been discussed along other major corridors years ago in Virginia and North Carolina, and went nowhere.
The feds would likely just strip all federal highway funds, so even money they get helped with for non-interstate highways would go away.
It doesn't go without saying that the current governor of Michigan is one of the biggest idiots around and that's all I'm saying on that one.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 19, 2020, 05:16:11 PM
It doesn't go without saying that the current governor of Michigan is one of the biggest idiots around and that's all I'm saying on that one.
Well that goes without saying! :)
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 19, 2020, 05:16:11 PM
It doesn't go without saying that the current governor of Michigan is one of the biggest idiots around and that's all I'm saying on that one.
Didn't your last one like ruin the water in Flint or something?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 19, 2020, 10:04:39 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 19, 2020, 05:16:11 PM
It doesn't go without saying that the current governor of Michigan is one of the biggest idiots around and that's all I'm saying on that one.
Didn't your last one like ruin the water in Flint or something?
No, that was the Flint city council, but I think we're getting off subject here.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 19, 2020, 10:04:39 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 19, 2020, 05:16:11 PM
It doesn't go without saying that the current governor of Michigan is one of the biggest idiots around and that's all I'm saying on that one.
Didn't your last one like ruin the water in Flint or something?
No that was Darnell Earley he was an Emergency Manager in Flint. He was appointed by Governor Snyder but he is the one that ultimately made the decision to switch the source of water for the city of Flint. I guess you could say Snyder sort of did because he was the one that appointed the EM. Earley was also the city manager in Saginaw for awhile. I live within a mile of Saginaw's city limits.
Quote from: Terry Shea on July 19, 2020, 10:11:35 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 19, 2020, 10:04:39 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 19, 2020, 05:16:11 PM
It doesn't go without saying that the current governor of Michigan is one of the biggest idiots around and that's all I'm saying on that one.
Didn't your last one like ruin the water in Flint or something?
No, that was the Flint city council, but I think we're getting off subject here.
Well my attack on Whitmer is that she said all along in her campaign that she was going to fix the damn roads. And now she is giving MDOT the ok to study the possibility of making a toll road without the thought that Michigan would lose federal funding if that is done.
It's already been mentioned that most of the traffic using the roadways in Michigan are by people that already live here and I agree with that. Michigan isn't a state that sees a lot of through traffic except for Canada. I guess making I-69 a toll road would probably be the best one if they had to make any of them a toll road considering many use it as a bypass of Detroit for Chicago-Toronto traffic. It'd be easy to shunpike though by using Old M-21 in many places. Old M-78 runs right next to current I-69 too.
Quote from: aboges26 on July 15, 2020, 08:04:56 PM
Or maybe that is the route MDOT wants Canada-bound trucks to follow (I-69), possibly alleviating some truck traffic from Detroit. Although I am not sure who in their right mind would go through Detroit to begin with if they could take I-69, regardless of tolled I-94 or not.
When I drove for a living, my company said I
had to use the Ambassador Bridge, because it somehow made their customs paperwork easier. Ugh, the Ambassador Bridge! The experience of driving on
that in an 18-wheeler was always worse than the experience of having to go through the stoplights in
Breezewood Windsor.
Quote from: stridentweasel on July 20, 2020, 07:52:29 PM
When I drove for a living, my company said I had to use the Ambassador Bridge, because it somehow made their customs paperwork easier.
What? Are you saying that shipping routes are determined by more than just one factor? Get outta here!
Let's face it. Michigan is never getting any toll roads outside of the Mackinac Bridge and the border crossings into Canada. What advantage would they have making any of these routes into a toll road when a free route is available? Go ahead and make US-127 into a toll road, I'll just use Old US-27.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 23, 2020, 01:24:25 PM
Let's face it. Michigan is never getting any toll roads outside of the Mackinac Bridge and the border crossings into Canada. What advantage would they have making any of these routes into a toll road when a free route is available? Go ahead and make US-127 into a toll road, I'll just use Old US-27.
Ohio Turnpike seems to do alright with a freeway to its north and a 4 lane highway to its south.
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on July 24, 2020, 05:05:06 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 23, 2020, 01:24:25 PM
Let's face it. Michigan is never getting any toll roads outside of the Mackinac Bridge and the border crossings into Canada. What advantage would they have making any of these routes into a toll road when a free route is available? Go ahead and make US-127 into a toll road, I'll just use Old US-27.
Ohio Turnpike seems to do alright with a freeway to its north and a 4 lane highway to its south.
There is some question to how well the Ohio TP would do if the US 30 Corridor from Mansfield, OH to somewhere near Morris, IL were upgraded to interstate standards, and even given an Interstate designation, be it 76 or 80, how well the OH TP, IN TR, and the Tri-State would compete
While such a thing has been talked about on the Fictional board, there needs to be more serious movement in Indiana regarding upgrading US 30 to a Freeway and more serious movement in Indiana and Illinois (mostly IL) about building the Illiana Tollway, and make sure the routes connect to the existing US 30 Freeway in Ohio
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 24, 2020, 05:35:41 PM
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on July 24, 2020, 05:05:06 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 23, 2020, 01:24:25 PM
Let's face it. Michigan is never getting any toll roads outside of the Mackinac Bridge and the border crossings into Canada. What advantage would they have making any of these routes into a toll road when a free route is available? Go ahead and make US-127 into a toll road, I'll just use Old US-27.
Ohio Turnpike seems to do alright with a freeway to its north and a 4 lane highway to its south.
There is some question to how well the Ohio TP would do if the US 30 Corridor from Mansfield, OH to somewhere near Morris, IL were upgraded to interstate standards, and even given an Interstate designation, be it 76 or 80, how well the OH TP, IN TR, and the Tri-State would compete
While such a thing has been talked about on the Fictional board, there needs to be more serious movement in Indiana regarding upgrading US 30 to a Freeway and more serious movement in Indiana and Illinois (mostly IL) about building the Illiana Tollway, and make sure the routes connect to the existing US 30 Freeway in Ohio
I was thinking of OH 2 & I-90 to the north and US 20 & I-76 to the south.
Well if the Fed's aren't chipping in enough to maintain that interstate for the traffic it has, why are we beholden to a system that denies interstates access to a potential revenue stream because of some arbitrary rule? That's dumb. That rule should be shit-canned. I 100% support tolling existing tax-payed interstates if it means those interstates can get more lanes and modern interchanges.
By all means, toll the shit out of I-94 so Michigan can afford to six+ lane the entire thing west of Detroit.
Hell yeah, toll I-81 so Virginia can afford to six lane the whole damn thing.
Let Missouri toll I-70 so that sumbitch has at least six lanes between KC and StL.
And just so I'm not playing favorites; why not toll I-94 over here in 'Sconnie so we can get that third lane where it's needed?
Worth it!
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on July 24, 2020, 05:05:06 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 23, 2020, 01:24:25 PM
Let's face it. Michigan is never getting any toll roads outside of the Mackinac Bridge and the border crossings into Canada. What advantage would they have making any of these routes into a toll road when a free route is available? Go ahead and make US-127 into a toll road, I'll just use Old US-27.
Ohio Turnpike seems to do alright with a freeway to its north and a 4 lane highway to its south.
And that freeway to the north is what I use to shunpike the Ohio Turnpike.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on July 24, 2020, 10:36:11 PM
Hell yeah, toll I-81 so Virginia can afford to six lane the whole damn thing.
The latest toll plan would not have widened the entire interstate to 6 lanes, in fact only less than 100 miles. Still a major improvement, but would not address the remaining 200+ miles.
Either way, the project package that includes numerous ramp extensions, safety improvements, climbing lanes, and that less than 100 miles of widening is getting underway, though they opted to increase fuel taxes & truck fees to fund it instead of implementing tolling.
Looks like Michigan's desperately trying to add toll roads before the new house members get in...
https://legislature.mi.gov/documents/2023-2024/billintroduced/House/pdf/2024-HIB-6256.pdf (https://legislature.mi.gov/documents/2023-2024/billintroduced/House/pdf/2024-HIB-6256.pdf)
Regardless of party, lame duck sessions are the absolute worst; they should swear in the new legislatures a week after the elections.
Quote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:20:58 PMRegardless of party, lame duck sessions are the absolute worst; they should swear in the new legislatures a week after the elections.
That doesn't allow time for recounts.
Quote from: hotdogPi on December 11, 2024, 02:22:32 PMQuote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:20:58 PMRegardless of party, lame duck sessions are the absolute worst; they should swear in the new legislatures a week after the elections.
That doesn't allow time for recounts.
A strawman. *If* there happens to be a recount for a seat or two, leave them unfilled until it they are resolved.
What we as residents shouldn't get is a 181 bills -- most of which are highly unpopular amongst their constituents like somehow converting I-75 and I-94 to be toll roads and/or changing the state flag -- being pushed through in a week when they had two years to submit them before their side ended up losing.
Quote from: hotdogPi on December 11, 2024, 02:22:32 PMQuote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:20:58 PMRegardless of party, lame duck sessions are the absolute worst; they should swear in the new legislatures a week after the elections.
That doesn't allow time for recounts.
Somehow other countries seem to manage. Are there even any other countries that have lame duck sessions in the first place?
One other interesting oddity (not sure if it's related or not) is that in other countries, "the government" refers to the people in charge (essentially what we would refer to as "the administration" and "the XXXth Congress"), while here, it refers to the institutions themselves.
I doubt these corridors will ever be toll roads. The only reason I might support turning US 127 into a toll road is if it helps expedite and fund the conversion of the St. John's-to-Ithaca's segment to full freeway standards.
I was under the impression that you could put interstate signage on existing toll roads (see what's going on in Oklahoma currently and the history of the Pennsylvania Turnpike) but you can't put tolls on an existing free interstate.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 13, 2024, 03:20:09 PMI was under the impression that you could put interstate signage on existing toll roads (see what's going on in Oklahoma currently and the history of the Pennsylvania Turnpike) but you can't put tolls on an existing free interstate.
There was a law where the feds were going to do a pilot program that allowed for up to three toll conversions on the interstate system. I-80 in PA was the infamous example, never getting approved because they weren't going to keep the money on I-80. I'm not sure if the RI truck tolls use one of those slots or if they're something else.
I thought they could be tolled if you replaced a bridge and tolled that.
Quote from: silverback1065 on December 14, 2024, 08:13:03 AMI thought they could be tolled if you replaced a bridge and tolled that.
Oh yeah, that's how the RI truck tolls work. They'll replace a regular underpass, make it a "toll bridge" and put in a gantry.
I've expressed before that Michigan residents would likely accept tolls on *NEW* roads, but not existing tax-funded ones. While that limited the potential use cases for tolling (since most of the roads that would benefit were built out as tax-funded), MDOT could make use of this in a few spots that would definitely help unload traffic elsewhere.
- Along the US-12 corridor between Sturgis and Ypsilanti. MDOT had big plans for this corridor that died when funding dried up. It would likely have the traffic levels to pay for itself, being a route that largely shuns the larger cities and the attendant traffic loads. MDOT could likely entice some kind of lease arrangement with Cintra of Spain and Macquarie of Australia (the current lessors of the Indiana Toll Road) as this would drive an increase in traffic on the Indiana Toll Road.
- M-115 between US-10 and M-37 near Mesick, then north on M-37 to Traverse City. This would *finally* establish a high-speed limited access highway link between Traverse City and all downstate locations. Bonus points for a link from US-31 in Ludington past Manistee, then NE to interchange with this tollway near Mesick.
- M-72 west of Grayling to Traverse City - this would give Traverse City a 2nd limited access highway link.
- US-31 Holland/Grand Haven bypass between I-196 and I-96 - Another long-awaited connection to bypass Grand Haven and the nightmare drawbridge over the Grand River
- M-40/89 between Holland and Plainwell - This could piggy-back onto the above-mentioned US-31 bypass and free up heavy traffic on this road connecting Holland to Kalamazoo and Battle Creek.
- US-223 corridor connecting Grand Rapids and Jackson to Toledo - This would finally establish the limited access highway link between Toledo and Jackson via the existing US-223 and US-127 corridors, then follow M-50 NW past Eaton Rapids, Charlotte, and Lake Odessa to meet I-96 just east of M-6. Alternatively, it could curve west, then NW of Charlotte to serve Vermontville, Nashville, Hastings, and Middleville to connect to M-6 at the current M-37 interchange. This would offload traffic from I-94, I-96 and US-23.
- M-53 between I-696 and I-69 - Finally make the limited-access highway along Mound Rd a reality. It could also be brought south and west to meet the existing Davison Freeway (M-8) just east of I-75. This would offload significant traffic off I-75 and benefit Stellantis' Warrant Truck plant. Narrow right-of-way south of I-696 would be a limiting factor.
- M-59 corridor between I-96 in Howell and I-94 in Chesterfield. This would give the northern suburbs better connectivity with Lansing and Grand Rapids. At worst, a Utica to Chesterfield tollway can be done quickly and be immediately viable. Punching through NW Oakland County would encounter the same challenges as with I-275.
Quote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:50:01 PMQuote from: hotdogPi on December 11, 2024, 02:22:32 PMQuote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:20:58 PMRegardless of party, lame duck sessions are the absolute worst; they should swear in the new legislatures a week after the elections.
That doesn't allow time for recounts.
A strawman. *If* there happens to be a recount for a seat or two, leave them unfilled until it they are resolved.
What we as residents shouldn't get is a 181 bills -- most of which are highly unpopular amongst their constituents like somehow converting I-75 and I-94 to be toll roads and/or changing the state flag -- being pushed through in a week when they had two years to submit them before their side ended up losing.
The rest of the story...
So in one week, they pushed through around dozens of bills in a series of marathon sessions. On Friday before any votes Republicans walked out and that evening a few bills were passed 56-0. Then late Friday the walkout was joined by a Democrat congresswoman from Detroit, Karen Whitsett, who decided this rush of bills was ridiculous. Her leaving broke quorum; and she has not returned ... so it appears the lame duck session is done. Today was the last day to get a house bill to be able to be voted on by the current Senate.
Many fees were raised including the automobile registration fee... and worse Michigan now has automated speed cameras legalized.
However the toll road and state flag I complained about (House Bills 6256 and 6190) can no longer be brought up for a vote in this session; so those crappy ideas are dead.
Quote from: KelleyCook on December 18, 2024, 06:12:53 PMQuote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:50:01 PMQuote from: hotdogPi on December 11, 2024, 02:22:32 PMQuote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:20:58 PMRegardless of party, lame duck sessions are the absolute worst; they should swear in the new legislatures a week after the elections.
That doesn't allow time for recounts.
A strawman. *If* there happens to be a recount for a seat or two, leave them unfilled until it they are resolved.
What we as residents shouldn't get is a 181 bills -- most of which are highly unpopular amongst their constituents like somehow converting I-75 and I-94 to be toll roads and/or changing the state flag -- being pushed through in a week when they had two years to submit them before their side ended up losing.
The rest of the story...
So in one week, they pushed through around dozens of bills in a series of marathon sessions. On Friday before any votes Republicans walked out and that evening a few bills were passed 56-0. Then late Friday the walkout was joined by a Democrat congresswoman from Detroit, Karen Whitsett, who decided this rush of bills was ridiculous. Her leaving broke quorum; and she has not returned ... so it appears the lame duck session is done. Today was the last day to get a house bill to be able to be voted on by the current Senate.
Many fees were raised including the automobile registration fee... and worse Michigan now has automated speed cameras legalized.
However the toll road and state flag I complained about (House Bills 6256 and 6190) can no longer be brought up for a vote in this session; so those crappy ideas are dead.
Speed cameras in construction zones?
COOL! :thumbsup: :hyper:
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on December 18, 2024, 06:44:54 PMQuote from: KelleyCook on December 18, 2024, 06:12:53 PMQuote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:50:01 PMQuote from: hotdogPi on December 11, 2024, 02:22:32 PMQuote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:20:58 PMRegardless of party, lame duck sessions are the absolute worst; they should swear in the new legislatures a week after the elections.
That doesn't allow time for recounts.
A strawman. *If* there happens to be a recount for a seat or two, leave them unfilled until it they are resolved.
What we as residents shouldn't get is a 181 bills -- most of which are highly unpopular amongst their constituents like somehow converting I-75 and I-94 to be toll roads and/or changing the state flag -- being pushed through in a week when they had two years to submit them before their side ended up losing.
The rest of the story...
So in one week, they pushed through around dozens of bills in a series of marathon sessions. On Friday before any votes Republicans walked out and that evening a few bills were passed 56-0. Then late Friday the walkout was joined by a Democrat congresswoman from Detroit, Karen Whitsett, who decided this rush of bills was ridiculous. Her leaving broke quorum; and she has not returned ... so it appears the lame duck session is done. Today was the last day to get a house bill to be able to be voted on by the current Senate.
Many fees were raised including the automobile registration fee... and worse Michigan now has automated speed cameras legalized.
However the toll road and state flag I complained about (House Bills 6256 and 6190) can no longer be brought up for a vote in this session; so those crappy ideas are dead.
Speed cameras in construction zones? COOL! :thumbsup: :hyper:
Fun fact these cameras are going to be privatized...
(f) The state transportation department may install and use an automated speed enforcement system only by contracting with a third-party vendor. (https://legislature.mi.gov/Laws/MCL?objectName=mcl-257-627c-added)
Quote from: KelleyCook on December 18, 2024, 06:12:53 PMQuote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:50:01 PMQuote from: hotdogPi on December 11, 2024, 02:22:32 PMQuote from: KelleyCook on December 11, 2024, 02:20:58 PMRegardless of party, lame duck sessions are the absolute worst; they should swear in the new legislatures a week after the elections.
That doesn't allow time for recounts.
A strawman. *If* there happens to be a recount for a seat or two, leave them unfilled until it they are resolved.
What we as residents shouldn't get is a 181 bills -- most of which are highly unpopular amongst their constituents like somehow converting I-75 and I-94 to be toll roads and/or changing the state flag -- being pushed through in a week when they had two years to submit them before their side ended up losing.
The rest of the story...
So in one week, they pushed through around dozens of bills in a series of marathon sessions. On Friday before any votes Republicans walked out and that evening a few bills were passed 56-0. Then late Friday the walkout was joined by a Democrat congresswoman from Detroit, Karen Whitsett, who decided this rush of bills was ridiculous. Her leaving broke quorum; and she has not returned ... so it appears the lame duck session is done. Today was the last day to get a house bill to be able to be voted on by the current Senate.
Many fees were raised including the automobile registration fee... and worse Michigan now has automated speed cameras legalized.
However the toll road and state flag I complained about (House Bills 6256 and 6190) can no longer be brought up for a vote in this session; so those crappy ideas are dead.
State flag change? I say change it! very few state flags look nice. most are just the seal on a solid color background! so lazy and boring! :-D
Yes, the Michigan flag is just a coat of arms against a blue background. It's technically not the state seal, which surrounds the coat of arms with THE GREAT SEAL OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Flag_of_Michigan.svg/640px-Flag_of_Michigan.svg.png)
However... the coat of arms is kind of badass with the elk and moose and bald eagle, so I can't hate it too much...
The flag and seal are supposed to be two separate things. Any state flag that is a seal on a monocolor background needs to be changed.
Quote from: hotdogPi on December 19, 2024, 01:18:17 PMThe flag and seal are supposed to be two separate things. Any state flag that is a seal on a monocolor background needs to be changed.
Quote from: hotdogPi on December 19, 2024, 01:18:17 PMThe flag and seal are supposed to be two separate things. Any state flag that is a seal on a monocolor background needs to be changed.
No, it doesn't.
That stupid vexillogical society needs to be disbanded.