Maybe some of these questions have been answered here and there, but I'll lump them together:
1) What is the most re-used 3di from state to state?
2) What parent route spawns the most 3di?
3) Does any parent route have the same 3di in every state it goes through?
4) What states don't have any 3di's?
5) In your opinion, what's a good example of 3di overkill? (I am not talking about Los Angeles and all of it's 3di, they can justify it. I am talking about Little Rock, AR with 3 3di's and a 193,000 population to go with it)
6) Why does the Minneapolis/St. Paul beltway have 2 numbers?
1) I-295 spawns a total of 8 times
2) Definitely I-95 with all those 3dis it has in the Northeast. It currently has a whooping 33 spur routes (2 of them, I-595 MD and I-495 ME, are unsigned), with another one expected to come into existence soon (I-795 FL). A further 6 no longer exist (most recently I-895 NY and the short-lived I-495 NC, which never connected to I-95) and another 4 were never built.
3) I-5 has a I-405 in every state it passes through (I-205 also exists in all 3 states I-5 passes through, but there are only two I-205s). And technically, any Intrastate 2di with an associated 3di counts :sombrero:.
4) IIRC New Mexico doesn't even know what a 3di is. Arizona doesn't have one, but had some planned at one point. Wyoming shouldn't even have one.
5) Hennepin, Illinois and Cheyenne, Wyoming :sombrero:
6) I believe it's due to its asymmetry. I-694 is the most suitable bypass for through traffic on I-94, I-494 is way longer.
The first four questions can be answered with a quick look to Wikipedia.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 08:47:26 AM
Why does the Minneapolis/St. Paul beltway have 2 numbers?
They probably looked at the cities with 3- and 4- number beltways and decided they could do better.
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on July 27, 2020, 09:30:38 AM
1) I-295 spawns a total of 8 times
2) Definitely I-95 with all those 3dis it has in the Northeast. It currently has a whooping 33 spur routes (2 of them, I-595 MD and I-495 ME, are unsigned), with another one expected to come into existence soon (I-795 FL). A further 6 no longer exist (most recently I-895 NY and the short-lived I-495 NC, which never connected to I-95) and another 4 were never built.
3) I-5 has a I-405 in every state it passes through (I-205 also exists in all 3 states I-5 passes through, but there are only two I-205s). And technically, any Intrastate 2di with an associated 3di counts :sombrero:.
4) IIRC New Mexico doesn't even know what a 3di is. Arizona doesn't have one, but had some planned at one point. Wyoming shouldn't even have one.
5) Hennepin, Illinois and Cheyenne, Wyoming :sombrero:
6) I believe it's due to its asymmetry. I-694 is the most suitable bypass for through traffic on I-94, I-494 is way longer.
The first four questions can be answered with a quick look to Wikipedia.
The first 4 questions on Wikipedia only yield New York having a complete set of I-x90 within it's state. Plus, it's Wikipedia.
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on July 27, 2020, 09:30:38 AM
1) I-295 spawns a total of 8 times
2) Definitely I-95 with all those 3dis it has in the Northeast. It currently has a whooping 33 spur routes (2 of them, I-595 MD and I-495 ME, are unsigned), with another one expected to come into existence soon (I-795 FL). A further 6 no longer exist (most recently I-895 NY and the short-lived I-495 NC, which never connected to I-95) and another 4 were never built.
3) I-5 has a I-405 in every state it passes through (I-205 also exists in all 3 states I-5 passes through, but there are only two I-205s). And technically, any Intrastate 2di with an associated 3di counts :sombrero:.
4) IIRC New Mexico doesn't even know what a 3di is. Arizona doesn't have one, but had some planned at one point. Wyoming shouldn't even have one.
5) Hennepin, Illinois and Cheyenne, Wyoming :sombrero:
6) I believe it's due to its asymmetry. I-694 is the most suitable bypass for through traffic on I-94, I-494 is way longer.
The first four questions can be answered with a quick look to Wikipedia.
I think I should have prefaced #3 better. I am not including 3di's that are one route that cross a state line, nor a 3di that is child of an intrastate interstate.
3. I forgot there's a 405 in each state for I-5. Not all of them, but out of 8 states for I-10, 5 of them have an I-110.
iPhone
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 08:47:26 AM
5) In your opinion, what's a good example of 3di overkill? (I am not talking about Los Angeles and all of it's 3di, they can justify it. I am talking about Little Rock, AR with 3 3di's and a 193,000 population to go with it)
Little Rock has four:
1) I-430
2) I-440
3) I-530 (granted this one is a spur to points outside the region)
4) I-630
Could have been a fifth had the US 67 corridor north of Little Rock been given a 3di designation.
While the core city may only be a little shy of 200,000 the whole metro has a population of 738,344 per Wikipedia.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 09:47:32 AM
The first 4 questions on Wikipedia only yield New York having a complete set of I-x90 within it's state. Plus, it's Wikipedia.
You don't trust the random roadgeeks on Wikipedia, so you ask...the random roadgeeks on AARoads?
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2020, 12:49:02 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 09:47:32 AM
The first 4 questions on Wikipedia only yield New York having a complete set of I-x90 within it's state. Plus, it's Wikipedia.
You don't trust the random roadgeeks on Wikipedia, so you ask...the random roadgeeks on AARoads?
Yes. Maybe I wanted to have a discussion among roadgeeks instead of staring at Wikipedia for yet another day during a pandemic. It's getting a bit depressing how much Wikipedia I have been viewing.
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2020, 12:49:02 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 09:47:32 AM
The first 4 questions on Wikipedia only yield New York having a complete set of I-x90 within it's state. Plus, it's Wikipedia.
You don't trust the random roadgeeks on Wikipedia, so you ask...the random roadgeeks on AARoads?
Should you take a look at the edit history of some of the articles, you may find some familiar names...
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 01:59:50 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2020, 12:49:02 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 09:47:32 AM
The first 4 questions on Wikipedia only yield New York having a complete set of I-x90 within it's state. Plus, it's Wikipedia.
You don't trust the random roadgeeks on Wikipedia, so you ask...the random roadgeeks on AARoads?
Yes. Maybe I wanted to have a discussion among roadgeeks instead of staring at Wikipedia for yet another day during a pandemic. It's getting a bit depressing how much Wikipedia I have been viewing.
Most of those Wiki editors are the same people who contribute here.
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on July 27, 2020, 09:30:38 AM
6) I believe it's due to its asymmetry. I-694 is the most suitable bypass for through traffic on I-94, I-494 is way longer.
Probably the same reason St. Louis still has I-270 and I-255: each route serves its parent interstate better than the other. Both are straight shots between parent junctions and even though they form a complete loop, that loop is flat on two sides and visibly appears to be two different routes.
The pandemic has been pretty good at revving up my Wikipedia productivity.
Some recent projects: I-5 in Washington (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_5_in_Washington), I-205 in Portlandia and Vantucky (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_205_(Oregon%E2%80%93Washington)), and I-405 in Washington (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_405_(Washington)). The latter two are not yet complete, as I am slowly sifting through newspaper coverage to find exact opening dates and other information to flesh out the history sections.
Quote from: I-55 on July 28, 2020, 04:21:21 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on July 27, 2020, 09:30:38 AM
6) I believe it's due to its asymmetry. I-694 is the most suitable bypass for through traffic on I-94, I-494 is way longer.
Probably the same reason St. Louis still has I-270 and I-255: each route serves its parent interstate better than the other. Both are straight shots between parent junctions and even though they form a complete loop, that loop is flat on two sides and visibly appears to be two different routes.
One could argue I-255 serves both its parent routes better, as (despite current Controls) Thru Old US 66/I-44 to/from the SW and Old US 66/I-55 to/from the NE is better to use I-255 and the little bit of I-270 between I-255/I-55 and I-44 to go around St Louis to the south and east
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 08:47:26 AM
5) In your opinion, what's a good example of 3di overkill? (I am not talking about Los Angeles and all of it's 3di, they can justify it. I am talking about Little Rock, AR with 3 3di's and a 193,000 population to go with it)
S.F. Bay Area, with only one interstate to play off of:
280
380
formerly 480
580
680
780
880
980
Quote from: kkt on July 28, 2020, 08:26:30 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 08:47:26 AM
5) In your opinion, what's a good example of 3di overkill? (I am not talking about Los Angeles and all of it's 3di, they can justify it. I am talking about Little Rock, AR with 3 3di's and a 193,000 population to go with it)
S.F. Bay Area, with only one interstate to play off of:
280
380
formerly 480
580
680
780
880
980
... and let's not forget I-238. ... and there was also an 880 in Sacramento (transferred to mainline I-80 and the old route transferred to I-305). So, despite not having 180 available (It's a CA SR in Fresno) I-80 spawned a total of 10 or 11 3dis! (you might think that I-305 is double counted). 238 should definitely count (Since ASHTO suggested 180 for it before recognizing the duplication and approving 238) and the two incarnations of 880 should be double counted. In addition, CASR-51 is signed as "Business 80", so maybe it should count as well. That would make 12 in one state! ... and the mainline I-80 is only 200 miles or so.
You could say New Orleans, it has 4. But I think most are justified. It's limited by geography to only have one 2di, so most of the 3dis are for crossing bodies of water.
iPhone
Quote from: bassoon1986 on July 28, 2020, 09:04:02 PM
You could say New Orleans, it has 4. But I think most are justified. It's limited by geography to only have one 2di, so most of the 3dis are for crossing bodies of water.
New Orleans only has 3 - I-310, I-510, and I-610.
Unless you're counting the hidden I-910.
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 28, 2020, 09:16:15 PM
Quote from: bassoon1986 on July 28, 2020, 09:04:02 PM
You could say New Orleans, it has 4. But I think most are justified. It's limited by geography to only have one 2di, so most of the 3dis are for crossing bodies of water.
New Orleans only has 3 - I-310, I-510, and I-610.
Unless you're counting the hidden I-910.
Yes. That would make 4.
iPhone
Quote from: I-55 on July 28, 2020, 04:21:21 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on July 27, 2020, 09:30:38 AM
6) I believe it's due to its asymmetry. I-694 is the most suitable bypass for through traffic on I-94, I-494 is way longer.
Probably the same reason St. Louis still has I-270 and I-255: each route serves its parent interstate better than the other. Both are straight shots between parent junctions and even though they form a complete loop, that loop is flat on two sides and visibly appears to be two different routes.
I'm staying with my hypothesis that it was a fad earlier on to use multiple numbers for beltways, considering previous proposals for using both I-215 and I-415 for Salt Lake City, and I-281 and I-481 for Syracuse.
Didn't the St Louis Beltway have a segment numbered I-244 originally? I believe between I-70 in MO and either I-44 or I-55 in MO? Or, basically the West Side?
5. I-680 and I-880 in Iowa.
Quote from: michravera on July 28, 2020, 08:54:12 PM
... and let's not forget I-238. ... and there was also an 880 in Sacramento (transferred to mainline I-80 and the old route transferred to I-305). So, despite not having 180 available (It's a CA SR in Fresno) I-80 spawned a total of 10 or 11 3dis! (you might think that I-305 is double counted). 238 should definitely count (Since ASHTO suggested 180 for it before recognizing the duplication and approving 238) and the two incarnations of 880 should be double counted. In addition, CASR-51 is signed as "Business 80", so maybe it should count as well. That would make 12 in one state! ... and the mainline I-80 is only 200 miles or so.
Which begs anothr question...how many states have a mainline interstate which runs less miles in its state than its 3dis? I trust I-80 in CA easily meets that criteria. I'd also nominate I-95 in MA.
EDIT: Also...are there any other situations where a 3di enters a state its parent doesn't? All I can think of off the top of my head is I-535 in WI.
Quote from: DJ Particle on July 29, 2020, 12:54:39 AM
Which begs anothr question...how many states have a mainline interstate which runs less miles in its state than its 3dis? I trust I-80 in CA easily meets that criteria. I'd also nominate I-95 in MA.
I assume that is supposed to be I-95 in MD, not MA? Guess it could be either. If unsigned I-595 in MD is counted, it probably helps the case (No, I haven't measured)
I would also suggest I-95 in DC, but DC isn't really a state
I-95 in NY should qualify, I would think. I-78 in NY really qualifies
Trying a bigger state, I thought I-35 might pull this off in Kansas. But it is 215 miles, and its 3dis in KS add up to ~155 miles. 60 miles isn't too big a number, tho
Quote from: DJ Particle on July 29, 2020, 12:54:39 AM
EDIT: Also...are there any other situations where a 3di enters a state its parent doesn't? All I can think of off the top of my head is I-535 in WI.
I-129 and Nebraska
I-275 and Indiana
At present, one might argue I-269 around Memphis. I don't think I-69 is signed yet officially in TN
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 29, 2020, 01:19:02 AM
Quote from: DJ Particle on July 29, 2020, 12:54:39 AM
Which begs anothr question...how many states have a mainline interstate which runs less miles in its state than its 3dis? I trust I-80 in CA easily meets that criteria. I'd also nominate I-95 in MA.
I assume that is supposed to be I-95 in MD, not MA? Guess it could be either. If unsigned I-595 in MD is counted, it probably helps the case (No, I haven't measured)
I-495 in MA is longer than I-95 in MA.
Quote from: dvferyance on July 28, 2020, 10:54:57 PM
5. I-680 and I-880 in Iowa.
I think that change was justified. The section of I-680 that became I-880 is primarily used by people going between Sioux City and Des Moines, whereas I-680 is simply a northwest loop of the Omaha area. There is some functionality for people in North Omaha to use I-880, but that is not the primary use. It really shouldn't have taken a flood to make it happen. If, in the 1970's, they had immediately switched it to I-880 from I-80N, no one today would probably ever notice.
Quote from: DJ Particle on July 29, 2020, 12:54:39 AM....
EDIT: Also...are there any other situations where a 3di enters a state its parent doesn't? All I can think of off the top of my head is I-535 in WI.
I-287 has most of its length in New Jersey. I-87 doesn't enter New Jersey (nor any state other than New York).
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 29, 2020, 01:19:02 AM
Quote from: DJ Particle on July 29, 2020, 12:54:39 AM
Which begs anothr question...how many states have a mainline interstate which runs less miles in its state than its 3dis? I trust I-80 in CA easily meets that criteria. I'd also nominate I-95 in MA.
I assume that is supposed to be I-95 in MD, not MA? Guess it could be either. If unsigned I-595 in MD is counted, it probably helps the case (No, I haven't measured)
I would also suggest I-95 in DC, but DC isn't really a state
I-95 in NY should qualify, I would think. I-78 in NY really qualifies
Trying a bigger state, I thought I-35 might pull this off in Kansas. But it is 215 miles, and its 3dis in KS add up to ~155 miles. 60 miles isn't too big a number, tho
Quote from: DJ Particle on July 29, 2020, 12:54:39 AM
EDIT: Also...are there any other situations where a 3di enters a state its parent doesn't? All I can think of off the top of my head is I-535 in WI.
I-129 and Nebraska
I-275 and Indiana
At present, one might argue I-269 around Memphis. I don't think I-69 is signed yet officially in TN
Honorable mention:
I-155 going from Arkansas to Tennessee. Although I-55 obviously goes through Tennessee, going south to north, I-55 has long entered and exited the state by the time I-155 enters the state, so it almost qualifies. Also, I-55 is longer in Tennessee, 15 miles over I-55's 12.
Following up on ilpt4u's comment about I-95 in Maryland: Said route has 108.9 miles in Maryland (mileage figures in this post are per Travel Mapping). Its 3dis are:
I-195 (4.05 miles)
I-295 (0.79 mile)
I-395 (1.19 mile for the mainline and 0.52 mile for the spur)
I-495 (41.27 miles if you count the entire overlap with I-95)
I-595 (19.65 miles)
I-695 (51.84 miles)
I-795 (9.04 miles)
I-895 (14.42-mile mainline plus two spurs of 0.54 and 2.35 miles)
Total 3di mileage, if you count all of I-495's overlap with I-95, equals 145.66 miles. If you subtract the overlap, the figure would still be greater than I-95's total mileage in Maryland because the overlap is around 27 miles. If you also subtract I-595 because it's unsigned, then you'd have I-95's mileage exceeding its 3dis.
Quote from: DJ Particle on July 29, 2020, 12:54:39 AM
Which begs anothr question...how many states have a mainline interstate which runs less miles in its state than its 3dis? I trust I-80 in CA easily meets that criteria. I'd also nominate I-95 in MA.
I-195 & I-295 in NJ have more total mileage (roughly 110 miles) than I-95 (roughly 89 if you include the western spur).
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 29, 2020, 01:19:02 AM
Trying a bigger state, I thought I-35 might pull this off in Kansas. But it is 215 miles, and its 3dis in KS add up to ~155 miles. 60 miles isn't too big a number, tho
Thinking of Kansas' 3di's, I have another question: What 3di's are unique in that they do something no other 3di does?
Example: I-235 KS is the only interstate (I think) that acts as a complete by-pass for another 3di, connecting to I-135 on both ends, and to no other interstate.
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 29, 2020, 01:19:02 AM
Quote from: DJ Particle on July 29, 2020, 12:54:39 AM
EDIT: Also...are there any other situations where a 3di enters a state its parent doesn't? All I can think of off the top of my head is I-535 in WI.
I-129 and Nebraska
I-275 and Indiana
At present, one might argue I-269 around Memphis. I don't think I-69 is signed yet officially in TN
And I-287 in NJ.
Quote from: I-55 on July 29, 2020, 10:25:26 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 29, 2020, 01:19:02 AM
Trying a bigger state, I thought I-35 might pull this off in Kansas. But it is 215 miles, and its 3dis in KS add up to ~155 miles. 60 miles isn't too big a number, tho
Thinking of Kansas' 3di's, I have another question: What 3di's are unique in that they do something no other 3di does?
Example: I-235 KS is the only interstate (I think) that acts as a complete by-pass for another 3di, connecting to I-135 on both ends, and to no other interstate.
I-190 in New York is unique in being the only 3di that reaches the Canadian border.
Quote from: Henry on July 29, 2020, 10:34:20 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 29, 2020, 01:19:02 AM
Quote from: DJ Particle on July 29, 2020, 12:54:39 AM
EDIT: Also...are there any other situations where a 3di enters a state its parent doesn't? All I can think of off the top of my head is I-535 in WI.
I-129 and Nebraska
I-275 and Indiana
At present, one might argue I-269 around Memphis. I don't think I-69 is signed yet officially in TN
And I-287 in NJ.
Who woulda thunk it?
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 29, 2020, 07:40:30 AM
Quote from: DJ Particle on July 29, 2020, 12:54:39 AM....
EDIT: Also...are there any other situations where a 3di enters a state its parent doesn't? All I can think of off the top of my head is I-535 in WI.
I-287 has most of its length in New Jersey. I-87 doesn't enter New Jersey (nor any state other than New York).
Quote from: I-55 on July 29, 2020, 10:25:26 AM
Thinking of Kansas' 3di's, I have another question: What 3di's are unique in that they do something no other 3di does?
Before the ICC was built, I think I-370 in MD may have been the only 3di that terminated at a metro station.
Quote from: I-55 on July 29, 2020, 10:25:26 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 29, 2020, 01:19:02 AM
Trying a bigger state, I thought I-35 might pull this off in Kansas. But it is 215 miles, and its 3dis in KS add up to ~155 miles. 60 miles isn't too big a number, tho
Thinking of Kansas' 3di's, I have another question: What 3di's are unique in that they do something no other 3di does?
Example: I-235 KS is the only interstate (I think) that acts as a complete by-pass for another 3di, connecting to I-135 on both ends, and to no other interstate.
I feel that any 3di that serves a downtown area while it's parent bypasses the city is unique.
I-635 in Texas begins at I-20, but terminates into SH-121, which should make it an odd 3di (I know the history of it were it used to be routed on the I-20 section south of Dallas)
I-475 passing Macon presents an unusual situation. It follows the conventional pattern of the 3di bypassing the city while the 2di (I-75) more directly serves the city itself, but what's unusual here is that the 3di covers a shorter distance for thru traffic than the 2di route does. More often a 3di loops around a city and covers a longer distance, but in Macon, you could visualize it as a bow and arrow situation where I-75 is the "bow" and I-475 is the "bowstring." I don't know off the top of my head whether this is truly "unique" in terms of there being no other place where that sort of thing happens, though, and I don't have time to look it up just now.
I-275 in Florida is an example of what "ethanhopkin14" notes in that I-75 bypasses Tampa and St. Petersburg to the east while I-275 serves them both directly (and then I-175 and I-375 connect to downtown St. Petersburg), although downtown Tampa is also served by a 1di (I-4).
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 29, 2020, 10:55:38 AM
I feel that any 3di that serves a downtown area while it's parent bypasses the city is unique.
Not the case here in Upstate NY. That happens in
every major city: Buffalo (I-190), Rochester (I-490), Syracuse (I-690), Utica (I-790) and Albany (I-787).
2di's going through downtown are common in other parts of the country, but not here. It's either 3dis or no freeways at all.
I have not read any replies yet, so these are my guesses:
1. 195
2. 95
3. I don't think so
4. Alaska, Wyoming (Cheyenne 180 doesn't count), Vermont (?), New Mexico
5. I don't think it's possible to have too many 3dis, but it is possible to have too many freeways (ahem, Kansas City, St. Louis, Cincinnati)
6. No idea
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 29, 2020, 11:23:23 AM
I-475 passing Macon presents an unusual situation. It follows the conventional pattern of the 3di bypassing the city while the 2di (I-75) more directly serves the city itself, but what's unusual here is that the 3di covers a shorter distance for thru traffic than the 2di route does. More often a 3di loops around a city and covers a longer distance, but in Macon, you could visualize it as a bow and arrow situation where I-75 is the "bow" and I-475 is the "bowstring." I don't know off the top of my head whether this is truly "unique" in terms of there being no other place where that sort of thing happens, though, and I don't have time to look it up just now.
I-10 and I-12 de facto. Also I-470 and I-70 in WV.
Quote from: thspfc on July 29, 2020, 11:38:35 AM
I have not read any replies yet, so these are my guesses:
1. 195
2. 95
3. I don't think so
4. Alaska, Wyoming (Cheyenne 180 doesn't count), Vermont (?), New Mexico
5. I don't think it's possible to have too many 3dis, but it is possible to have too many freeways (ahem, Kansas City, St. Louis, Cincinnati)
6. No idea
Vermont has I-189.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 29, 2020, 11:40:02 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 29, 2020, 11:23:23 AM
I-475 passing Macon presents an unusual situation. It follows the conventional pattern of the 3di bypassing the city while the 2di (I-75) more directly serves the city itself, but what's unusual here is that the 3di covers a shorter distance for thru traffic than the 2di route does. More often a 3di loops around a city and covers a longer distance, but in Macon, you could visualize it as a bow and arrow situation where I-75 is the "bow" and I-475 is the "bowstring." I don't know off the top of my head whether this is truly "unique" in terms of there being no other place where that sort of thing happens, though, and I don't have time to look it up just now.
I-10 and I-12 de facto.
And on a more local scale, I-10 and I-610.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 29, 2020, 11:40:02 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 29, 2020, 11:23:23 AM
I-475 passing Macon presents an unusual situation. It follows the conventional pattern of the 3di bypassing the city while the 2di (I-75) more directly serves the city itself, but what's unusual here is that the 3di covers a shorter distance for thru traffic than the 2di route does. More often a 3di loops around a city and covers a longer distance, but in Macon, you could visualize it as a bow and arrow situation where I-75 is the "bow" and I-475 is the "bowstring." I don't know off the top of my head whether this is truly "unique" in terms of there being no other place where that sort of thing happens, though, and I don't have time to look it up just now.
I-10 and I-12 de facto. Also I-470 and I-70 in WV.
I would quibble with I-10 and I-12 for purposes of this thread because both are 2dis.
I-470 is interesting–I couldn't tell just by looking at a map which route was longer there, though surely I-470 would be the "faster" route in any event due to being a better road with a higher speed limit. Turns out the I-70 route is three-tenths of a mile longer. Good catch!
I'm somewhat chagrined not to have thought of the I-610 example jmacswimmer mentions because my brother lives in New Orleans, so I feel like I should have known that one (though, to be fair, he moved there last year and I haven't been there since July 4 weekend in 1997).
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 29, 2020, 11:23:23 AM
I-475 passing Macon presents an unusual situation. It follows the conventional pattern of the 3di bypassing the city while the 2di (I-75) more directly serves the city itself, but what's unusual here is that the 3di covers a shorter distance for thru traffic than the 2di route does. More often a 3di loops around a city and covers a longer distance, but in Macon, you could visualize it as a bow and arrow situation where I-75 is the "bow" and I-475 is the "bowstring." I don't know off the top of my head whether this is truly "unique" in terms of there being no other place where that sort of thing happens, though, and I don't have time to look it up just now.
I-410 and I-10 in San Antonio qualifies in spirit (I-410 is about 2 miles shorter), although the weird situation with the northern I-35/I-410 junction means it's not very obvious visually, and there's not as much time savings as you might expect. Google actually recommends I-10 W>I-410 N>
I-35 S>I-10 W.
You also have I-476 and I-81 in Scranton, PA. I-476 is significantly shorter, if only there were better connectivity between the two roads (the story of PA's life, of course). This project (https://www.patpconstruction.com/scrantonbeltway/) aims to fix some of the connectivity issues and encourage the use of I-476 as a Scranton Bypass.
And of course, I-75 takes a triangular routing in the Detroit area, but the issue is that there's no 3di that connects on both ends. If only I-275 was completed to Clarkston, that would be a textbook example.
Quote from: I-55 on July 29, 2020, 10:25:26 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 29, 2020, 01:19:02 AM
Trying a bigger state, I thought I-35 might pull this off in Kansas. But it is 215 miles, and its 3dis in KS add up to ~155 miles. 60 miles isn't too big a number, tho
Thinking of Kansas' 3di's, I have another question: What 3di's are unique in that they do something no other 3di does?
Example: I-235 KS is the only interstate (I think) that acts as a complete by-pass for another 3di, connecting to I-135 on both ends, and to no other interstate.
Not exactly an interstate, but VA-164 (should be I-164) in Hampton Roads connects to I-264 and I-664 on its endpoints, and serves as a shorter route than following I-264 to I-664.
I wouldn't necessarily call I-235 a "Bypass" , it's more of a loop. It would be inefficient to follow it compared to I-135 thru.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 29, 2020, 12:04:23 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 29, 2020, 11:40:02 AM
I-470 and I-70 in WV.
I-470 is interesting–I couldn't tell just by looking at a map which route was longer there, though surely I-470 would be the "faster" route in any event due to being a better road with a higher speed limit. Turns out the I-70 route is three-tenths of a mile longer. Good catch!
When I first read this, I overlooked "WV", and spent the time plotting out I-70/I-470 in Kansas, only to realize that
that I-470 is 1.3 miles longer, and come back to this thread and see the detail I'd missed.
curious why they didn't go to 4 digits when they ran out of 3. if they already had 9 x80s who not a 1080, 1180? is it due to shield size? or did they just not care.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 29, 2020, 11:23:23 AM
I-475 passing Macon presents an unusual situation. It follows the conventional pattern of the 3di bypassing the city while the 2di (I-75) more directly serves the city itself, but what's unusual here is that the 3di covers a shorter distance for thru traffic than the 2di route does. More often a 3di loops around a city and covers a longer distance, but in Macon, you could visualize it as a bow and arrow situation where I-75 is the "bow" and I-475 is the "bowstring." I don't know off the top of my head whether this is truly "unique" in terms of there being no other place where that sort of thing happens, though, and I don't have time to look it up just now.
In the DC area, I-495 around the western side of the beltway is a shorter distance than following I-95 around the eastern side of the beltway.
In Hampton Roads, I-664 is a significantly shorter distance between Hampton and Bowers Hill as opposed to following I-64's arc around the eastern side of the metro.
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 29, 2020, 12:21:52 PM
Quote from: I-55 on July 29, 2020, 10:25:26 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 29, 2020, 01:19:02 AM
Trying a bigger state, I thought I-35 might pull this off in Kansas. But it is 215 miles, and its 3dis in KS add up to ~155 miles. 60 miles isn't too big a number, tho
Thinking of Kansas' 3di's, I have another question: What 3di's are unique in that they do something no other 3di does?
Example: I-235 KS is the only interstate (I think) that acts as a complete by-pass for another 3di, connecting to I-135 on both ends, and to no other interstate.
Not exactly an interstate, but VA-164 (should be I-164) in Hampton Roads connects to I-264 and I-664 on its endpoints, and serves as a shorter route than following I-264 to I-664.
I wouldn't necessarily call I-235 a "Bypass" , it's more of a loop. It would be inefficient to follow it compared to I-135 thru.
Funny, I've heard old-timers around here refer to 235 as "The Bypass".
Quote from: thspfc on July 29, 2020, 11:38:35 AM
I have not read any replies yet, so these are my guesses:
1. 195
2. 95
3. I don't think so
4. Alaska, Wyoming (Cheyenne 180 doesn't count), Vermont (?), New Mexico
5. I don't think it's possible to have too many 3dis, but it is possible to have too many freeways (ahem, Kansas City, St. Louis, Cincinnati)
6. No idea
Check the very first reply to this thread, written by me. I already gave answers there.
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 29, 2020, 12:30:18 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 29, 2020, 11:23:23 AM
I-475 passing Macon presents an unusual situation. It follows the conventional pattern of the 3di bypassing the city while the 2di (I-75) more directly serves the city itself, but what's unusual here is that the 3di covers a shorter distance for thru traffic than the 2di route does. More often a 3di loops around a city and covers a longer distance, but in Macon, you could visualize it as a bow and arrow situation where I-75 is the "bow" and I-475 is the "bowstring." I don't know off the top of my head whether this is truly "unique" in terms of there being no other place where that sort of thing happens, though, and I don't have time to look it up just now.
In the DC area, I-495 around the western side of the beltway is a shorter distance than following I-95 around the eastern side of the beltway.
In Hampton Roads, I-664 is a significantly shorter distance between Hampton and Bowers Hill as opposed to following I-64's arc around the eastern side of the metro.
Should I-95 in DC be switched to the western side of the beltway?
Quote from: thspfc on July 29, 2020, 11:38:35 AM
I have not read any replies yet ...
Not usually the greatest strategy, but we've all been guilty of doing that at some point. :)
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 29, 2020, 04:05:49 PM
Should I-95 in DC be switched to the western side of the beltway?
I don't think so - I suspect the reason I-95 was put around the eastern side, despite being a few miles longer, is that the eastern side of the beltway passes thru less dense suburbs (relatively-speaking) than the western and northern sides do (which has to squeeze thru Tysons, Bethesda, and Silver Spring to name a few). On the Maryland side of the beltway, it's quite noticeable that the PG County (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8516004,-76.8591872,3a,75y,215.84h,88.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHmsxQtBBZgDgCWXpFwjqog!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) portion generally has milder curves and a wider ROW compared to the Montgomery County (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0077907,-77.0868376,3a,75y,300.69h,86.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKoloQsTu8Bb8UrfpkZKVlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) portion. (The county line, for reference, happens to be a mile west of the I-95 interchange.)
Obviously the eastern side still has its issues too, but the decision-makers probably figured it was the lesser of 2 evils in terms of thru traffic.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 29, 2020, 04:05:49 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 29, 2020, 12:30:18 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 29, 2020, 11:23:23 AM
I-475 passing Macon presents an unusual situation. It follows the conventional pattern of the 3di bypassing the city while the 2di (I-75) more directly serves the city itself, but what's unusual here is that the 3di covers a shorter distance for thru traffic than the 2di route does. More often a 3di loops around a city and covers a longer distance, but in Macon, you could visualize it as a bow and arrow situation where I-75 is the "bow" and I-475 is the "bowstring." I don't know off the top of my head whether this is truly "unique" in terms of there being no other place where that sort of thing happens, though, and I don't have time to look it up just now.
In the DC area, I-495 around the western side of the beltway is a shorter distance than following I-95 around the eastern side of the beltway.
In Hampton Roads, I-664 is a significantly shorter distance between Hampton and Bowers Hill as opposed to following I-64's arc around the eastern side of the metro.
Should I-95 in DC be switched to the western side of the beltway?
No real need to anymore.
Quote from: jmacswimmer on July 29, 2020, 04:29:25 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 29, 2020, 04:05:49 PM
Should I-95 in DC be switched to the western side of the beltway?
I don't think so - I suspect the reason I-95 was put around the eastern side, despite being a few miles longer, is that the eastern side of the beltway passes thru less dense suburbs (relatively-speaking) than the western and northern sides do (which has to squeeze thru Tysons, Bethesda, and Silver Spring to name a few). On the Maryland side of the beltway, it's quite noticeable that the PG County (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8516004,-76.8591872,3a,75y,215.84h,88.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHmsxQtBBZgDgCWXpFwjqog!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) portion generally has milder curves and a wider ROW compared to the Montgomery County (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0077907,-77.0868376,3a,75y,300.69h,86.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKoloQsTu8Bb8UrfpkZKVlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) portion. (The county line, for reference, happens to be a mile west of the I-95 interchange.)
Obviously the eastern side still has its issues too, but the decision-makers probably figured it was the lesser of 2 evils in terms of thru traffic.
Anybody following a GPS would be routed along either the western beltway, or I-495 / I-95 then up the B.W. Parkway to Baltimore to rejoin I-95. At least with Google Maps... it's never recommended I-95 all the way.
Signage and the way VDOT reconfigured the Springfield Interchange to make the I-95 movement a thru, left-hand movement though, directs you to take I-95 all the way however.
As for the eastern beltway / I-95 portion, many segments can feel rural, and drivers treat it that way with traffic flow easily cruising at 75 - 80 mph even when heavier despite the artificial 55 mph speed limit. Considering they increased I-95 between Washington and Baltimore and US-50 / I-595 between I-495 / I-95 and Annapolis to 65 mph, I still don't understand why they refuse to increase I-95 / I-495 for most of its length, along with I-270 outside the Beltway, to 65 mph.
Is there really any difference in traffic flow speed on the 65 mph segment of I-95 outside the beltway vs. the 55 mph segment of I-495 / I-95 beltway? Raising it would likely not result in much changes with driver speed, but would bring the speed limit closer to reality.
Quote from: webny99 on July 29, 2020, 04:08:42 PM
Quote from: thspfc on July 29, 2020, 11:38:35 AM
I have not read any replies yet ...
Not usually the greatest strategy, but we've all been guilty of doing that at some point. :)
I didn't read the replies so that I could make guesses on the questions, instead of just looking at the answers.
Quote from: webny99 on July 29, 2020, 11:28:32 AM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 29, 2020, 10:55:38 AM
I feel that any 3di that serves a downtown area while it's parent bypasses the city is unique.
Not the case here in Upstate NY. That happens in every major city: Buffalo (I-190), Rochester (I-490), Syracuse (I-690), Utica (I-790) and Albany (I-787).
2di's going through downtown are common in other parts of the country, but not here. It's either 3dis or no freeways at all.
It's also common in Pennsylvania:
- Pittsburgh's is bypassed by all three nearby 2dis, with 3dis only in the city (I-376, I-279, I-579)
- Philadelphia has I-76 go around South Philly while I-676 goes downtown
- Reading is bypassed by I-76 and served by I-176
- Scranton is bypassed by I-80, and served by I-380
- Williamsport is bypassed by I-80, and served by I-180
- In the past, before I-78 was rerouted off of US 22, it avoided the downtown areas of Allentown and Bethlehem, which were supposed to be served by 3dis (I-178 and I-378)
How many 3dis are busier than their parents?
I-405 in WA gets fairly close, with 209K in Bellevue versus 274K in Seattle, and has an opposite design: plenty of throughput through the "downtown" and fewer lanes in the outer edges, unlike I-5's narrower portion being in downtown.
In Flint and Saginaw, the 3di's go through town while I-75 is more of a bypass. Especially Saginaw.
Quote from: GaryV on July 29, 2020, 08:10:13 PM
In Flint and Saginaw, the 3di's go through town while I-75 is more of a bypass. Especially Saginaw.
Makes me wonder about I-690 and I-90 in Syracuse, NY.
Quote from: Bruce on July 29, 2020, 08:02:43 PM
How many 3dis are busier than their parents?
I believe I-475 has more traffic than I-75 in Macon GA
Quote from: texaskdog on July 29, 2020, 12:27:39 PM
curious why they didn't go to 4 digits when they ran out of 3. if they already had 9 x80s who not a 1080, 1180? is it due to shield size? or did they just not care.
My suspicion is a combination of shield size and easy recognition on signs, even in bad weather while traveling at freeway speeds.
I'd suggest picking an honorary 2di number that doesn't actually exist within the state and numbering additional 3dis off of that. For example, if a 3di were wanted for the bypass loop around Sacramento rather than moving I-80 to the bypass route, it could be I-282. Then the infamous I-238 could be I-382. The I-80 Albany to San Rafael segment could be I-482 instead of an extension of I-580.
Also 4dis would be fine for hidden interstates, such as hidden I-305 over US 50 in Sacramento could instead be I-1305.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 29, 2020, 07:42:01 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 29, 2020, 01:19:02 AM
Quote from: DJ Particle on July 29, 2020, 12:54:39 AM
Which begs anothr question...how many states have a mainline interstate which runs less miles in its state than its 3dis? I trust I-80 in CA easily meets that criteria. I'd also nominate I-95 in MA.
I assume that is supposed to be I-95 in MD, not MA? Guess it could be either. If unsigned I-595 in MD is counted, it probably helps the case (No, I haven't measured)
I would also suggest I-95 in DC, but DC isn't really a state
I-95 in NY should qualify, I would think. I-78 in NY really qualifies
Trying a bigger state, I thought I-35 might pull this off in Kansas. But it is 215 miles, and its 3dis in KS add up to ~155 miles. 60 miles isn't too big a number, tho
Quote from: DJ Particle on July 29, 2020, 12:54:39 AM
EDIT: Also...are there any other situations where a 3di enters a state its parent doesn't? All I can think of off the top of my head is I-535 in WI.
I-129 and Nebraska
I-275 and Indiana
At present, one might argue I-269 around Memphis. I don't think I-69 is signed yet officially in TN
Honorable mention:
I-155 going from Arkansas to Tennessee. Although I-55 obviously goes through Tennessee, going south to north, I-55 has long entered and exited the state by the time I-155 enters the state, so it almost qualifies. Also, I-55 is longer in Tennessee, 15 miles over I-55's 12.
I-155 starts in the Missouri Bootheel, not in Arkansas.
However, I-555 to Jonesboro is not a great deal shorter than its parent. I-555 is 50 miles, I-55 is 72 miles.
Quote from: Bruce on July 29, 2020, 08:02:43 PM
How many 3dis are busier than their parents?
I-405 in WA gets fairly close, with 209K in Bellevue versus 274K in Seattle, and has an opposite design: plenty of throughput through the "downtown" and fewer lanes in the outer edges, unlike I-5's narrower portion being in downtown.
I-5 and I-405 in LA?
I-494 in Bloomington between 100 and 35W is pretty equal to I-94 between downtown Minneapolis and downtown St. Paul.
Quote from: ilpt4u on July 28, 2020, 10:41:25 PM
Didn't the St Louis Beltway have a segment numbered I-244 originally? I believe between I-70 in MO and either I-44 or I-55 in MO? Or, basically the West Side?
I-244 was from I-70 to I-55, see https://www.modot.org/sites/default/files/documents/1973_back%5B1%5D.pdf (https://www.modot.org/sites/default/files/documents/1973_back%5B1%5D.pdf) (decent sized pdf file).
Quote from: thspfc5. I don't think it's possible to have too many 3dis, but it is possible to have too many freeways (ahem, Kansas City, St. Louis, Cincinnati)
St. Louis does not have too many freeways. If anything it's missing a few critical sections such as I-170 south of US 40.
Quote from: Big John on July 29, 2020, 08:14:19 PM
Quote from: Bruce on July 29, 2020, 08:02:43 PM
How many 3dis are busier than their parents?
I believe I-475 has more traffic than I-75 in Macon GA
Particularly since I-75 goes out of the way to go through Macon.
Quote from: Verlanka on July 30, 2020, 05:07:02 AM
Quote from: Big John on July 29, 2020, 08:14:19 PM
Quote from: Bruce on July 29, 2020, 08:02:43 PM
How many 3dis are busier than their parents?
I believe I-475 has more traffic than I-75 in Macon GA
Particularly since I-75 goes out of the way to go through Macon.
I-75 also picks up I-16 traffic heading towards Atlanta from Savannah near Downtown.
How does this impact the volumes?
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 29, 2020, 04:50:59 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on July 29, 2020, 04:29:25 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 29, 2020, 04:05:49 PM
Should I-95 in DC be switched to the western side of the beltway?
I don't think so - I suspect the reason I-95 was put around the eastern side, despite being a few miles longer, is that the eastern side of the beltway passes thru less dense suburbs (relatively-speaking) than the western and northern sides do (which has to squeeze thru Tysons, Bethesda, and Silver Spring to name a few). On the Maryland side of the beltway, it's quite noticeable that the PG County (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8516004,-76.8591872,3a,75y,215.84h,88.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHmsxQtBBZgDgCWXpFwjqog!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) portion generally has milder curves and a wider ROW compared to the Montgomery County (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0077907,-77.0868376,3a,75y,300.69h,86.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKoloQsTu8Bb8UrfpkZKVlA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) portion. (The county line, for reference, happens to be a mile west of the I-95 interchange.)
Obviously the eastern side still has its issues too, but the decision-makers probably figured it was the lesser of 2 evils in terms of thru traffic.
Anybody following a GPS would be routed along either the western beltway, or I-495 / I-95 then up the B.W. Parkway to Baltimore to rejoin I-95. At least with Google Maps... it's never recommended I-95 all the way.
Signage and the way VDOT reconfigured the Springfield Interchange to make the I-95 movement a thru, left-hand movement though, directs you to take I-95 all the way however.
There was probably much more of the follow-the-2di-regardless effect (which I've seen discussed in other threads) when the reroute was first made, and maybe still so to a lesser extent today (especially with the configuration of Springfield, as you noted).
Ever since the I-295/DC 295/I-695 interchange was rebuilt and added connections from I-695 to DC 295, GPS's have also started routing people up I-395 to I-695, and then DC 295 into the B-W Parkway. It's not a bad routing so long as it isn't rush hour.
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 29, 2020, 04:50:59 PM
As for the eastern beltway / I-95 portion, many segments can feel rural, and drivers treat it that way with traffic flow easily cruising at 75 - 80 mph even when heavier despite the artificial 55 mph speed limit. Considering they increased I-95 between Washington and Baltimore and US-50 / I-595 between I-495 / I-95 and Annapolis to 65 mph, I still don't understand why they refuse to increase I-95 / I-495 for most of its length, along with I-270 outside the Beltway, to 65 mph.
Is there really any difference in traffic flow speed on the 65 mph segment of I-95 outside the beltway vs. the 55 mph segment of I-495 / I-95 beltway? Raising it would likely not result in much changes with driver speed, but would bring the speed limit closer to reality.
Agreed, especially on I-270. I remember once doing 70-75 in the local-express portion and a cop still blowing by me doing at least 80! I don't think anyone actually goes 55 on I-270, but the cops don't seem to enforce 55 at least.
I-475 is the reason I don't have I-75 clinched in Georgia.
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 30, 2020, 07:04:04 AM
Quote from: Verlanka on July 30, 2020, 05:07:02 AM
Quote from: Big John on July 29, 2020, 08:14:19 PM
Quote from: Bruce on July 29, 2020, 08:02:43 PM
How many 3dis are busier than their parents?
I believe I-475 has more traffic than I-75 in Macon GA
Particularly since I-75 goes out of the way to go through Macon.
I-75 also picks up I-16 traffic heading towards Atlanta from Savannah near Downtown.
How does this impact the volumes?
Probably more traffic heading to Florida than Savannah.
Quote from: jmacswimmer on July 30, 2020, 08:19:55 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 29, 2020, 04:50:59 PM
As for the eastern beltway / I-95 portion, many segments can feel rural, and drivers treat it that way with traffic flow easily cruising at 75 - 80 mph even when heavier despite the artificial 55 mph speed limit. Considering they increased I-95 between Washington and Baltimore and US-50 / I-595 between I-495 / I-95 and Annapolis to 65 mph, I still don't understand why they refuse to increase I-95 / I-495 for most of its length, along with I-270 outside the Beltway, to 65 mph.
Is there really any difference in traffic flow speed on the 65 mph segment of I-95 outside the beltway vs. the 55 mph segment of I-495 / I-95 beltway? Raising it would likely not result in much changes with driver speed, but would bring the speed limit closer to reality.
Agreed, especially on I-270. I remember once doing 70-75 in the local-express portion and a cop still blowing by me doing at least 80! I don't think anyone actually goes 55 on I-270, but the cops don't seem to enforce 55 at least.
I did the Beltway and 270 on a Saturday morning with my family last year, they wouldn't allow me to go above 67 give or take, and I nearly rear-ended 2 people because I wasn't nearly fast enough to travel with the 80 mph traffic in the left lanes. After my second near miss, I went ahead and did 75 with no issues and my parents eventually didn't care. What gets me is that I routinely do 70-75 on I-465 in Indianapolis, with the same traffic and speed limit, without repercussion. If you post the limit high, the slow people will catch up and be less of a hazard, and when traffic is tight enough, people will naturally slow down regardless of the limit. Roads are the opposite of Price is Right, the winner is the closest speed limit without going under.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on July 27, 2020, 02:46:25 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 01:59:50 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2020, 12:49:02 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 09:47:32 AM
The first 4 questions on Wikipedia only yield New York having a complete set of I-x90 within it's state. Plus, it's Wikipedia.
You don't trust the random roadgeeks on Wikipedia, so you ask...the random roadgeeks on AARoads?
Yes. Maybe I wanted to have a discussion among roadgeeks instead of staring at Wikipedia for yet another day during a pandemic. It's getting a bit depressing how much Wikipedia I have been viewing.
Most of those Wiki editors are the same people who contribute here.
And a few of the wiki editors are quite snooty if you edit some of their stuff that is missing. I made a couple of legit edits on the exit lists for I-55 and I-57 in Illinois and got a nasty response. Just sayin.
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 30, 2020, 08:40:43 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on July 27, 2020, 02:46:25 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 01:59:50 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2020, 12:49:02 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 09:47:32 AM
The first 4 questions on Wikipedia only yield New York having a complete set of I-x90 within it's state. Plus, it's Wikipedia.
You don't trust the random roadgeeks on Wikipedia, so you ask...the random roadgeeks on AARoads?
Yes. Maybe I wanted to have a discussion among roadgeeks instead of staring at Wikipedia for yet another day during a pandemic. It's getting a bit depressing how much Wikipedia I have been viewing.
Most of those Wiki editors are the same people who contribute here.
And a few of the wiki editors are quite snooty if you edit some of their stuff that is missing. I made a couple of legit edits on the exit lists for I-55 and I-57 in Illinois and got a nasty response. Just sayin.
Usually this means you broke something without realizing it. Got a link to a diff?
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 30, 2020, 08:40:43 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on July 27, 2020, 02:46:25 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 01:59:50 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 27, 2020, 12:49:02 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 09:47:32 AM
The first 4 questions on Wikipedia only yield New York having a complete set of I-x90 within it's state. Plus, it's Wikipedia.
You don't trust the random roadgeeks on Wikipedia, so you ask...the random roadgeeks on AARoads?
Yes. Maybe I wanted to have a discussion among roadgeeks instead of staring at Wikipedia for yet another day during a pandemic. It's getting a bit depressing how much Wikipedia I have been viewing.
Most of those Wiki editors are the same people who contribute here.
And a few of the wiki editors are quite snooty if you edit some of their stuff that is missing. I made a couple of legit edits on the exit lists for I-55 and I-57 in Illinois and got a nasty response. Just sayin.
Not gonna lie, that was my experience as well. I had what I thought were fair edits immediately reverted by people hawking at pages like they had nothing better to do than be Wiki police.
There's certain standards for exit lists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists) that have to be followed. All destinations have to match what is on the BGS instead of what "should" be there, which is an opinion that can vary.
Quote from: Bruce on July 30, 2020, 09:17:52 PM
There's certain standards for exit lists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists) that have to be followed. All destinations have to match what is on the BGS instead of what "should" be there, which is an opinion that can vary.
I would argue that if there is a sign along the route before the exit that says something like "Springfield EXIT 104" or "Allstate Arena EXIT 72" but it's not the "primary" control city on the exit sign, it should be in the note section. That was some of the stuff that I was adding. A lot of people use those wiki exit lists for POIs. I also think it is helpful to people to know things like US 151's exit off I-39/90/94 is locally called E Washington Ave despite it not being strictly a control city.
I-470 is the reason that I lack an I-70 clinch in OH and WV. I took 470 in both directions, but I had no control over the route.
Quote from: ozarkman417 on July 30, 2020, 10:21:53 PM
I-470 is the reason that I lack an I-70 clinch in OH and WV. I took 470 in both directions, but I had no control over the route.
I'm in a similar situation (although I'm also missing a short segment of I-70 in Columbus) and I plan to remedy that in October. I'm interested in going through the Wheeling Tunnel just to see that route anyway, and since the tunnel is closed westbound for construction I need to do it on the way home. Last time we went that way I consciously took I-470 due to a combination of traffic and construction and so far that's the only time I've been through that area. I typically opt for Corridor H and Corridor D instead.
I-495 is used in multiple states MA, NY, MD, VA, ME, DE
I-280 used in Multiple places CA, IL, IA, NJ, OH
I-680 Used in Nebraska, Iowa, California, Ohio
I-380 used in Iowa, California and Pennsylvania.
I-275 exists in 6 states, although there are only 4 distinct routes.
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 30, 2020, 09:44:46 PM
Quote from: Bruce on July 30, 2020, 09:17:52 PM
There's certain standards for exit lists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Road_junction_lists) that have to be followed. All destinations have to match what is on the BGS instead of what "should" be there, which is an opinion that can vary.
I would argue that if there is a sign along the route before the exit that says something like "Springfield EXIT 104" or "Allstate Arena EXIT 72" but it's not the "primary" control city on the exit sign, it should be in the note section. That was some of the stuff that I was adding. A lot of people use those wiki exit lists for POIs.
Wikipedia is not meant to include all information. Whether or not it is helpful isn't the metric by which something is included. For instance, instructions for changing a tire would be helpful, but you can't make a Wikipedia page about that because that's not what the site is for. Generally, additional information found on other sign panels like this is okay to include, but if there's other information competing for that space editorial judgements have to be made on whether it's more important to note that an exit allows access to the West Brompfart Municipal Dog Park or that you can't get on there going westbound.
Without a link to a diff, I can't speak to the particulars of the situation.
QuoteI also think it is helpful to people to know things like US 151's exit off I-39/90/94 is locally called E Washington Ave despite it not being strictly a control city.
This is absolutely not okay if it's not actually on the sign. Relying on local usage is fraught with problems: do we have proof of that usage other than this editor's say-so? What percentage of the locals call it that? Is it only certain demographics (age, sex, race, income level) that call it that? Do we consider the usage of everyone in that municipality, or just people within a certain radius of the interchange? If the latter, what radius do we use? You end up needing a linguistic survey to ensure accuracy, and nobody's got the money for that.
Quote from: ozarkman417 on July 30, 2020, 10:21:53 PM
I-470 is the reason that I lack an I-70 clinch in OH and WV. I took 470 in both directions, but I had no control over the route.
Speaking of I-470 it exist in 4 states would be 5 if Colorado hadn't screwed theirs up thanks frm Gov Lamm for that. I-270 exist in 5 states.
So I-295 exists in nine states (ME, MA/RI, NY, NJ/DE, VA, NC, FL), making it the winner for most states. But another question: how many instances of max 3dis in a state are there? I-90 in NY technically does it, though I've heard that at least one of those 3dis (790 maybe?) is unsigned. I-80 in CA either does it or gets close. I-95 in MD gets really close, but oddly enough is missing 295, the most common 3di!
Any other examples?
Quote from: thspfc on September 02, 2020, 06:50:17 PM
So I-295 exists in nine states (ME, MA/RI, NY, NJ/DE, VA, NC, FL), making it the winner for most states. But another question: how many instances of max 3dis in a state are there? I-90 in NY technically does it, though I've heard that at least one of those 3dis (790 maybe?) is unsigned. I-80 in CA either does it or gets close. I-95 in MD gets really close, but oddly enough is missing 295, the most common 3di!
Any other examples?
There is actually an I-295 in MD, although just barely (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/38.7989029,-77.0190437/38.8047344,-77.0222081/@38.799894,-77.0326714,15.25z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0?hl=en) - Mostly exists in DC.
Additionally the DE/NJ I-295 now extends into PA, so does that mean I-295 actually exists in 11 states (12 if you include DC)?
Quote from: thspfc on September 02, 2020, 06:50:17 PM
I-80 in CA either does it or gets close.
Gets close.
There is no I-180 because there is a state route 180 and California does not duplicate route numbers between state, U.S., and interstate systems. However, the portion of I-580 from Albany to San Rafael may have been signed and marked on maps as I-180 for a short period in the late 1970s. It was approved as I-180 by AASHTO, but rejected by California later and then approved as an extension of I-580 by AASHTO.
And there's now no I-480. The Embarcadero Freeway in San Francisco was I-480 before its completion was blocked in the freeway revolt. Then it was CA 480 for 20+ years until the 1989 earthquake damaged it so badly it was decided not to spend money to repair or replace it.
Quote from: kkt on September 02, 2020, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: thspfc on September 02, 2020, 06:50:17 PM
I-80 in CA either does it or gets close.
Gets close.
There is no I-180 because there is a state route 180 and California does not duplicate route numbers between state, U.S., and interstate systems. However, the portion of I-580 from Albany to San Rafael may have been signed and marked on maps as I-180 for a short period in the late 1970s. It was approved as I-180 by AASHTO, but rejected by California later and then approved as an extension of I-580 by AASHTO.
And there's now no I-480. The Embarcadero Freeway in San Francisco was I-480 before its completion was blocked in the freeway revolt. Then it was CA 480 for 20+ years until the 1989 earthquake damaged it so badly it was decided not to spend money to repair or replace it.
Let's not forget that I-238
is a 3di of I-80. <duck!>
Quote from: michravera on September 02, 2020, 09:30:29 PM
Quote from: kkt on September 02, 2020, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: thspfc on September 02, 2020, 06:50:17 PM
I-80 in CA either does it or gets close.
Gets close.
There is no I-180 because there is a state route 180 and California does not duplicate route numbers between state, U.S., and interstate systems. However, the portion of I-580 from Albany to San Rafael may have been signed and marked on maps as I-180 for a short period in the late 1970s. It was approved as I-180 by AASHTO, but rejected by California later and then approved as an extension of I-580 by AASHTO.
And there's now no I-480. The Embarcadero Freeway in San Francisco was I-480 before its completion was blocked in the freeway revolt. Then it was CA 480 for 20+ years until the 1989 earthquake damaged it so badly it was decided not to spend money to repair or replace it.
Let's not forget that I-238 is a 3di of I-80. <duck!>
:pan:
Quote from: michravera on September 02, 2020, 09:30:29 PM
Quote from: kkt on September 02, 2020, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: thspfc on September 02, 2020, 06:50:17 PM
I-80 in CA either does it or gets close.
Gets close.
There is no I-180 because there is a state route 180 and California does not duplicate route numbers between state, U.S., and interstate systems. However, the portion of I-580 from Albany to San Rafael may have been signed and marked on maps as I-180 for a short period in the late 1970s. It was approved as I-180 by AASHTO, but rejected by California later and then approved as an extension of I-580 by AASHTO.
And there's now no I-480. The Embarcadero Freeway in San Francisco was I-480 before its completion was blocked in the freeway revolt. Then it was CA 480 for 20+ years until the 1989 earthquake damaged it so badly it was decided not to spend money to repair or replace it.
Let's not forget that I-238 is a 3di of I-80. <duck!>
Just add a "zero" and make it the 1st 4di: I-2380
A compromise:
I-238.0
It's been over 30 years since anyone drove on 480. If CA did decide to fix I-238, they could number it I-480.
And I think they should, not so much because it's an orphan 3di, but because it doesn't directly connect with CA 238.
Quote from: ilpt4u on September 03, 2020, 03:55:22 AM
Quote from: michravera on September 02, 2020, 09:30:29 PM
Quote from: kkt on September 02, 2020, 07:57:43 PM
Quote from: thspfc on September 02, 2020, 06:50:17 PM
I-80 in CA either does it or gets close.
Gets close.
There is no I-180 because there is a state route 180 and California does not duplicate route numbers between state, U.S., and interstate systems. However, the portion of I-580 from Albany to San Rafael may have been signed and marked on maps as I-180 for a short period in the late 1970s. It was approved as I-180 by AASHTO, but rejected by California later and then approved as an extension of I-580 by AASHTO.
And there's now no I-480. The Embarcadero Freeway in San Francisco was I-480 before its completion was blocked in the freeway revolt. Then it was CA 480 for 20+ years until the 1989 earthquake damaged it so badly it was decided not to spend money to repair or replace it.
Let's not forget that I-238 is a 3di of I-80. <duck!>
Just add a "zero" and make it the 1st 4di: I-2380
It would even be a legitimate "Eastern" I-380. And it is possible (and was proposed back in the late 1960s and early 1970s) to have a "Southern Crossing" bridge roughly where I-380 would have hit The Bay. There are several good reasons that the bridge was never constructed. Not the least of which is that it would go through the deepest and widest part of The Bay. If all of that had hooked up, the I-238 numbering could have been handled within the currently defined system without any difficulty. I was one of the original proponents of 4dis. I-238 WB would have been I-2880 and EB would have been I-2580. If they ever get the whole thing constructed as freeway CASR-262 could do something similar. Of course, I-1080 and I-1180, etc could do the job just as well and would have an easier time fitting on existing shields.4
Quote from: kkt on September 03, 2020, 01:53:44 PM
It's been over 30 years since anyone drove on 480. If CA did decide to fix I-238, they could number it I-480.
And I think they should, not so much because it's an orphan 3di, but because it doesn't directly connect with CA 238.
What do you mean it doesn't connect?
The Bay Area's numbering could easily be fixed with that pie-in-the-sky extension of I-70 that is bantered about.
Quote from: TEG24601 on September 03, 2020, 03:12:31 PM
The Bay Area's numbering could easily be fixed with that pie-in-the-sky extension of I-70 that is bantered about.
Or more realistically if US-101 became an I-1
Quote from: kphoger on September 03, 2020, 02:13:47 PM
Quote from: kkt on September 03, 2020, 01:53:44 PM
It's been over 30 years since anyone drove on 480. If CA did decide to fix I-238, they could number it I-480.
And I think they should, not so much because it's an orphan 3di, but because it doesn't directly connect with CA 238.
What do you mean it doesn't connect?
From I-238 eastbound you can take an exit to CA 238, but I-238 continues eastbound another few hundred yards before it joins with I-580. CA 238 is not a simple extension of I-238, nor is I-238 a simple extension of CA 238.
Quote from: I-55 on September 03, 2020, 03:41:42 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on September 03, 2020, 03:12:31 PM
The Bay Area's numbering could easily be fixed with that pie-in-the-sky extension of I-70 that is bantered about.
Or more realistically if US-101 became an I-1
It wouldn't be I-1 because CA 1 is an iconic route that the state would never change. But US 101 could become I-3 at least from L.A. to S.F., which would require renumbering only a much less important and well-known route CA 3 in the NW end of the state.
I-70 to California is not just fictional, it's a wild fantasy. Even if it were built for free, California would not want it built through the mountain wilderness areas and parks, nor would Caltrans have the budget to keep it open in the winter as you would expect of an interstate. Nor would Nevada want to maintain interstate levels of maintenance on a route that barely justifies two lanes.
Quote from: kkt on September 03, 2020, 04:07:55 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 03, 2020, 02:13:47 PM
Quote from: kkt on September 03, 2020, 01:53:44 PM
It's been over 30 years since anyone drove on 480. If CA did decide to fix I-238, they could number it I-480.
And I think they should, not so much because it's an orphan 3di, but because it doesn't directly connect with CA 238.
What do you mean it doesn't connect?
From I-238 eastbound you can take an exit to CA 238, but I-238 continues eastbound another few hundred yards before it joins with I-580. CA 238 is not a simple extension of I-238, nor is I-238 a simple extension of CA 238.
meh
I think that's really splitting some hairs, there.
I-5 in California has spawned the most 3dis in different areas
I-105, I-205, I-305 (Signed as US-50), I-405, I-505, I-605, I-805, CA-905.
Quote from: bing101 on September 03, 2020, 07:58:59 PM
I-5 in California has spawned the most 3dis in different areas
I-105, I-205, I-305 (Signed as US-50), I-405, I-505, I-605, I-805, CA-905.
I-90 in New York takes that title. 190, 290, and 990 in Buffalo, 390, 490, and 590 in Rochester, 690 in Syracuse, 790 in Utica, 890 in Schenectady for five different areas. I-10 in Texas, I-10 in Louisiana, I-40 in Tennessee, I-55 in Illinois, and I-75 in Michigan all have 3dis in three different areas, and there's probably others I'm missing in that category.
Quote from: jmacswimmer on September 02, 2020, 07:04:30 PM
Quote from: thspfc on September 02, 2020, 06:50:17 PM
So I-295 exists in nine states (ME, MA/RI, NY, NJ/DE, VA, NC, FL), making it the winner for most states. But another question: how many instances of max 3dis in a state are there? I-90 in NY technically does it, though I've heard that at least one of those 3dis (790 maybe?) is unsigned. I-80 in CA either does it or gets close. I-95 in MD gets really close, but oddly enough is missing 295, the most common 3di!
Any other examples?
There is actually an I-295 in MD, although just barely (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/38.7989029,-77.0190437/38.8047344,-77.0222081/@38.799894,-77.0326714,15.25z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0?hl=en) - Mostly exists in DC.
Additionally the DE/NJ I-295 now extends into PA, so does that mean I-295 actually exists in 11 states (12 if you include DC)?
Of course, there's no I-995, and I-595 is unsigned along US 50 from the Beltway to Annapolis.
I-80 and I-90 (both E-W) have maxed out their 3di's, and due to Caltrans dragging its feet on the 905 thing, I-85 may very well be the first N-S 2di to max out its own 3di's, with the forthcoming I-885 in Durham and I-685 in Montgomery. With Montgomery, though, it would be a renumbering of the existing I-85, since it's slated to be rerouted onto a new southern bypass that may or may not be completed in our lifetimes.
Quote from: Henry on September 03, 2020, 08:50:08 PM
I-80 and I-90 (both E-W) have maxed out their 3di's, and due to Caltrans dragging its feet on the 905 thing, I-85 may very well be the first N-S 2di to max out its own 3di's, with the forthcoming I-885 in Durham and I-685 in Montgomery. With Montgomery, though, it would be a renumbering of the existing I-85, since it's slated to be rerouted onto a new southern bypass that may or may not be completed in our lifetimes.
All I-10 needs is an I-810 to hit all its 3di's (although the unsigned I-910 in New Orleans will eventually become I-49...)
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 08:47:26 AM
Maybe some of these questions have been answered here and there, but I'll lump them together:
3) Does any parent route have the same 3di in every state it goes through?
If Georgia signs a new 3di of I-75 as I-275, it will be the first 3di to exist in more states than its parent (besides I-238 :p). Currently, there are an equal number of states I-275 is in as I-75, but the difference is that I-275 is in IN and I-75 is in GA.
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 19, 2020, 07:38:30 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 08:47:26 AM
Maybe some of these questions have been answered here and there, but I'll lump them together:
3) Does any parent route have the same 3di in every state it goes through?
If Georgia signs a new 3di of I-75 as I-275, it will be the first 3di to exist in more states than its parent (besides I-238 :p). Currently, there are an equal number of states I-275 is in as I-75, but the difference is that I-275 is in IN and I-75 is in GA.
I-287
Quote from: I-55 on December 19, 2020, 09:33:23 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on December 19, 2020, 07:38:30 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on July 27, 2020, 08:47:26 AM
Maybe some of these questions have been answered here and there, but I'll lump them together:
3) Does any parent route have the same 3di in every state it goes through?
If Georgia signs a new 3di of I-75 as I-275, it will be the first 3di to exist in more states than its parent (besides I-238 :p). Currently, there are an equal number of states I-275 is in as I-75, but the difference is that I-275 is in IN and I-75 is in GA.
I-287
overlooked that
wait actually
ik it's not connected to I-87 in NC, but they still share a number. NC can still add an I-287 of their own if they feel like to though