In Hollywood, if part of a movies' plot has to do with characters reaching another state, they will usually show, from the point of view of the characters looking out of the moving car, a sign that just reads "State Line 30". In reality this sign is not standard, but I do want to say I have seen it here or there off the silver screen. In Texas, I have never seen a state line reference on a distance sign, but who has seen it before?
If you're talking literally about the words "STATE LINE" only (without mentioning the state), I don't think I've ever seen that listed as a destination on a mileage sign.
But I have seen at least a couple of examples here in Pennsylvania (here's one (https://goo.gl/maps/7B2S71gS8QEnbZ587)) where something like "NJ State Line" was included on a post-interchange mileage sign. And most state borders are commonly included now on VMSes within 20-30 miles of a border, although I don't think that is what you were looking for.
Xx State Line reassurance mileage signs are fairly common in Virginia
The narrow black and white destination signs at secondary road intersections in North Carolina have this with mileages
Quote from: briantroutman on September 24, 2020, 04:52:15 PM
If you're talking literally about the words "STATE LINE" only (without mentioning the state), I don't think I've ever seen that listed as a destination on a mileage sign.
But I have seen at least a couple of examples here in Pennsylvania (here's one (https://goo.gl/maps/7B2S71gS8QEnbZ587)) where something like "NJ State Line" was included on a post-interchange mileage sign. And most state borders are commonly included now on VMSes within 20-30 miles of a border, although I don't think that is what you were looking for.
YEah, I was looking for just "STATE LINE" with no reference to the state, but still that one is a rare bird.
First one that comes to mind is on US 64 at Teec Nos Pos, Arizona (https://goo.gl/maps/2hRWX19qVBrQQjgW9) - in fact, it's the very first city mentioned on that highway.
Quote from: Mapmikey on September 24, 2020, 04:56:40 PM
Xx State Line reassurance mileage signs are fairly common in Virginia
....
In that respect, here's a BGS on the Beltway that lists "MD State Line" as an intermediate point: https://goo.gl/maps/T8WbbKU1fzkawUe39
"Va State Line" along I-85 North near Oxford, NC - https://www.google.com/maps/@36.2799856,-78.5988356,3a,37.3y,77.56h,83.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUQYi1LHSpDDJ_odax2g5UQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
"NC State Line" along VA-168 South in Chesapeake, VA - https://www.google.com/maps/@36.6358572,-76.2173508,3a,49y,193.71h,84.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjYGNRCcPPeYgJtZWv5PWAA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
M-103 southbound from Mottville has this sign:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7945647,-85.7597973,3a,75y,213.44h,78.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shh6OeQXofsLD70RcPKpreA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
M-217 southbound from Union:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7820273,-85.8771657,3a,75y,186.02h,96.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shZv7jzt_3u5gBbv5PLl0IA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Oklahoma does it repeatedly on US-177:
(https://i.imgur.com/MLtEapv.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/p8dads5.jpg)
(I have no idea what that little "BAR" notation means on the second one, which is the last mileage sign before Kansas.)
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 24, 2020, 06:31:43 PM
(I have no idea what that little "BAR" notation means on the second one, which is the last mileage sign before Kansas.)
The State Line Bar (https://goo.gl/maps/wXxDBbpk368eBMKK8)?
The NYS Thruway westbound uses PA Line (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6263158,-79.0008481,3a,48.4y,244.21h,91.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3wpuh4oh9yBocUYmNgqKTw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) between Buffalo and the NY/PA line, although I can't say I've ever seen "state line" used without specifying which state.
Michigan does on multiple highways. This one is on M-52 south of Adrian.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8721509,-84.0429346,3a,15y,200.05h,88.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYVPBJBopl9hq7_9SEpwAgA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
Quote from: briantroutman on September 24, 2020, 07:03:23 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 24, 2020, 06:31:43 PM
(I have no idea what that little "BAR" notation means on the second one, which is the last mileage sign before Kansas.)
The State Line Bar (https://goo.gl/maps/wXxDBbpk368eBMKK8)?
Why would they measure to that instead of the actual state line, though? Unless the bar owner added the "BAR" there for advertising...
Who knows, it's ODOT.
With travel time signs that have popped up in Maine and Massachusetts, "STATE LINE" signage have appeared on such signs, but it is always with the state name:
Maine (there's another one further north in Ogunquit that says the exact same thing only with York/EXIT 7 instead of Kittery/EXIT 2 on top):
(https://i.ibb.co/cLthtGM/IMG-4084.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Qdnvn2z)
Massachusetts with New Hampshire (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7464167,-71.1372009,3a,38.8y,70.04h,86.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFiYGqdkz09g13VQ-mm8iKg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), Rhode Island (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7325487,-71.1954415,3a,24.4y,319.27h,89.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT4DjcP2ETTCyhyl81jNXmA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) and Vermont (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.430043,-72.6223063,3a,20.4y,20.91h,90.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0ypUxzxzmaM4PYk0WFA9Rg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) (NY is not listed because those signs (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.2218632,-72.96495,3a,18.8y,7.93h,92.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shA_SO6jGP-EFAaum1CfFhw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) say "NY Thruway" instead of NY State Line).
Here's an interesting one: I-287 north near Mahwah NJ has a standalone sign for "New Jersey State Line (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0516736,-74.1885447,3a,43.9y,34.67h,86.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-D5AGEqrWLKvUP5nogo0aA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)" - which technically isn't wrong, but really "New York State Line" would be much more intuitive here. I always find that sign amusing when I'm heading up towards New England.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 25, 2020, 03:12:07 AM
Why would they measure to that instead of the actual state line, though? Unless the bar owner added the "BAR" there for advertising...
That was my guess: The owner of the bar got his hands on a few stick-on letters from a brother-in-law who works at a sign shop, and he stuck the letters on the existing mileage sign. Part prank, part low-cost advertising.
Wouldn't necessarily even have to be from a sign shop–I've got a vinyl cutter and a copy of Series C, so if I got my hands on some reflective sheeting I could do that.
On MN 15 south of Fairmont, approaching Iowa, there's this sign.
http://www.iowahighwayends.net/ends/Sept07/16/FairmontSlgs.jpg
Virginia uses "W. Va. Line" in some cases, like on US 250 west of Monterey: https://goo.gl/maps/nk1gvD2sJoF3n3Ek9
A few for the Illinois-Indiana border. Illinois uses "Indiana" as the control. Indiana does indeed have "State Line" listed on a travel time sign.
https://goo.gl/maps/7SevdzBVjWeEPL689
https://goo.gl/maps/3Vmiop5ahgvc9Pxc6
Mileage signs with STATE LINE as a destination can be found on I‐70 West before the Utah border in Colorado and on US‐491 North in New Mexico, just below Colorado's border.
In northern lower Michigan, they also use the Mackinac Bridge as a control city.
US 79 north of Haynesville, LA.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nQpPFaJBesm8rqXG6
Quote from: cjk374 on October 16, 2020, 10:35:36 PM
US 79 north of Haynesville, LA.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nQpPFaJBesm8rqXG6
Good find! I've never known Louisiana to show this. Although majority of our state lines are across bodies of water.
iPhone
Quote from: bassoon1986 on October 17, 2020, 04:47:28 PM
Quote from: cjk374 on October 16, 2020, 10:35:36 PM
US 79 north of Haynesville, LA.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nQpPFaJBesm8rqXG6
Good find! I've never known Louisiana to show this. Although majority of our state lines are across bodies of water.
As you can see, this is one of DOTD's newer and smaller destination signs. There has always been a bigger 2-post-using sign here that the new one was cloned after. I have a theory about why State Line is used here:
My railroad runs here, just not visible from US 79. At the stateline we have a small side track (holds about 10 cars). This is listed in our timetable as "State Line". I don't know if there was ever a community there way back in the day, but now there are no signs a community was ever there. No tellin.
Quote from: bassoon1986 on October 17, 2020, 04:47:28 PM
Quote from: cjk374 on October 16, 2020, 10:35:36 PM
US 79 north of Haynesville, LA.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/nQpPFaJBesm8rqXG6
Good find! I've never known Louisiana to show this. Although majority of our state lines are across bodies of water.
iPhone
That sign leads me to another thing that kinda irks me. Why, on mileage signs, do some states show mileage to a city in another state, acknowledge the name of the state, choose to abbreviate it, but not use the standard postal abbreviation? New Mexico does this too, as you head to the Texas state line they show distances to towns like that, Example: Muleshoe, Tex. Texas does it for Juarez, Mex. I know there isn't a standard abbreviation but the xico was too much to add?
The reason it bothers me is after the state abbreviations got standardized, it's like everything worked really hard wiping the world and our memories of the old non-standard abbreviations. All, except roads.
The two-letter abbreviations you're familiar with did not replace the older abbreviations, they were just introduced by the USPS. Many people always use the USPS abbreviations now, but there are still other standards that are perfectly valid, and most style guides actually discourage using the USPS abbreviations, which is why you'll rarely see them in (for example) a news article.
"Ark." is the AP standard abbreviation for Arkansas.
The AP standard is not to abbreviate Texas at all, but "Tex." does get some use, including by the US Government Printing Office.
These aren't incorrect.
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on October 19, 2020, 12:14:09 PM
The two-letter abbreviations you're familiar with did not replace the older abbreviations, they were just introduced by the USPS. Many people always use the USPS abbreviations now, but there are still other standards that are perfectly valid, and most style guides actually discourage using the USPS abbreviations, which is why you'll rarely see them in (for example) a news article.
"Ark." is the AP standard abbreviation for Arkansas.
The AP standard is not to abbreviate Texas at all, but "Tex." does get some use, including by the US Government Printing Office.
These aren't incorrect.
Didn't say it was incorrect. I said I don't like it. I was curious why they remain when more than just postage has switched to the 2 letter abbreviation.
The ones I think are weird are when you occasionally see a two-letter postal abbreviation written like an old-style abbreviation despite not conforming to the old-fashioned abbreviations. An example is a sign someone posted some years back that listed Illinois as "Il" or "Il." (don't remember whether the sign had the period). That looked really strange. I'm used to a few strange abbreviations because, for example, the Bluebook calls for "Cal." for California and "Haw." for Hawaii (AP style calls for "Calif." and no abbreviation, respectively), but seeing a postal abbreviation used as if it were an old-fashioned one is strange, other than in situations where the abbreviation uses the same two letters either way, such as Virginia ("VA" versus "Va."). If you're going to use a postal abbreviation, use it correctly and use all-caps with no period.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on October 19, 2020, 12:24:17 PM
I was curious why they remain when more than just postage has switched to the 2 letter abbreviation.
Because they're not incorrect. That's the reason they remain. They're still perfectly valid abbreviations that some style guides still consider the proper standard.
Basically, I hate abbreviations. I personally find them lazy, but if you need to have an abbreviation (especially if space is limited), I am pretty adamant on using a consistent standard abbreviation, so that it can be interpreted by anyone. The abbreviation for Mister is Mr. It's not Mr. some times and Mist. other times. The abbreviation for Saint is St. All street and guide signs do this, not St. some times and Sai. or Sat. some other times. The last thing I want on a road sign is an oddball abbreviation as I drive down the highway 70 mph.
"CA" is not an abbreviation - it is a postal code.
"Cal." or "Calif." are abbreviations.
In some cases, postal codes are the same as the traditional abbreviation (after removing periods) - New York or North Carolina, for example. Some are similar, except for capitalization - like Maine. Some are different.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on October 19, 2020, 01:10:06 PM
Basically, I hate abbreviations. I personally find them lazy, but if you need to have an abbreviation (especially if space is limited), I am pretty adamant on using a consistent standard abbreviation, so that it can be interpreted by anyone. The abbreviation for Mister is Mr. It's not Mr. some times and Mist. other times. The abbreviation for Saint is St. All street and guide signs do this, not St. some times and Sai. or Sat. some other times. The last thing I want on a road sign is an oddball abbreviation as I drive down the highway 70 mph.
Actually, Saint is sometimes "St." and sometimes "Ste.," if the name is French (Sault Ste. Marie is one well-known example not located in a French-speaking area).
With that said, I was rather amused a few years ago when I was on the Metrorail on my way home from work and I heard some little kid who was looking at the map announce that the next stop was "King Saint—Old Town" (the map says "King St.—Old Town").
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 19, 2020, 01:31:09 PM
Actually, Saint is sometimes "St." and sometimes "Ste.," if the name is French (Sault Ste. Marie is one well-known example not located in a French-speaking area).
[\quote]
"Ste." would be the feminine version.
Quote
With that said, I was rather amused a few years ago when I was on the Metrorail on my way home from work and I heard some little kid who was looking at the map announce that the next stop was "King Saint—Old Town" (the map says "King St.—Old Town").
We were following GPS to a cousin's grad party when the Google lady pronounced "St. Joseph Road" as "Street Joseph Road".
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 19, 2020, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on October 19, 2020, 01:10:06 PM
Basically, I hate abbreviations. I personally find them lazy, but if you need to have an abbreviation (especially if space is limited), I am pretty adamant on using a consistent standard abbreviation, so that it can be interpreted by anyone. The abbreviation for Mister is Mr. It's not Mr. some times and Mist. other times. The abbreviation for Saint is St. All street and guide signs do this, not St. some times and Sai. or Sat. some other times. The last thing I want on a road sign is an oddball abbreviation as I drive down the highway 70 mph.
Actually, Saint is sometimes "St." and sometimes "Ste.," if the name is French (Sault Ste. Marie is one well-known example not located in a French-speaking area).
With that said, I was rather amused a few years ago when I was on the Metrorail on my way home from work and I heard some little kid who was looking at the map announce that the next stop was "King Saint—Old Town" (the map says "King St.—Old Town").
And in Spanish it's San and in Dutch it's Sint, but I am not counting that because Dutch, Spanish and French are different languages.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on October 19, 2020, 03:39:49 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 19, 2020, 01:31:09 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on October 19, 2020, 01:10:06 PM
Basically, I hate abbreviations. I personally find them lazy, but if you need to have an abbreviation (especially if space is limited), I am pretty adamant on using a consistent standard abbreviation, so that it can be interpreted by anyone. The abbreviation for Mister is Mr. It's not Mr. some times and Mist. other times. The abbreviation for Saint is St. All street and guide signs do this, not St. some times and Sai. or Sat. some other times. The last thing I want on a road sign is an oddball abbreviation as I drive down the highway 70 mph.
Actually, Saint is sometimes "St." and sometimes "Ste.," if the name is French (Sault Ste. Marie is one well-known example not located in a French-speaking area).
With that said, I was rather amused a few years ago when I was on the Metrorail on my way home from work and I heard some little kid who was looking at the map announce that the next stop was "King Saint—Old Town" (the map says "King St.—Old Town").
And in Spanish it's San and in Dutch it's Sint, but I am not counting that because Dutch, Spanish and French are different languages.
Sure, though they are things you'll see on road signs every once in a while in non-French areas. (That is, "Ste." is the feminine form of "St.," so in Quebec you see it frequently in place names. But as noted, you see it in Ontario and Michigan as well, and of course "San" is very common in California and shows up in some other states.)
The two-letter abbreviations were created by and for the Post Office in the early 1960s. The Post Office was introducing zip codes and if the city name was long some commercial mailers didn't have enough space in their address blocks for the traditional state abbreviations that could be as long as five letters.
The two-letter abbreviations really aren't very good where they need to be clear quickly to people who are not from that region. I'm sure everyone here is detail-oriented and interested in geography and would know immediately whether MI is Minnesota, Mississippi, or Missouri, but the traditional abbreviations used by the Associate Press Style Guide (most newspapers), the American Library Association (library catalogs), and Government Printing Office (most US government publications) are much more quickly understood.
The number of times you'll see national or out-of-state news mix up the abbreviations and label Missouri as MI or MS is kind of hilarious.
I don't know how many times I've been on the phone regarding some order, and the person on the other end thinks AR is Arizona rather than Arkansas. I wished we did have 3 character abbreviations. Alaska and Alabama have the same issue with each other. Michigan, Missouri, and Mississippi too.
Quote from: kkt on October 19, 2020, 04:03:35 PM
The two-letter abbreviations were created by and for the Post Office in the early 1960s. The Post Office was introducing zip codes and if the city name was long some commercial mailers didn't have enough space in their address blocks for the traditional state abbreviations that could be as long as five letters.
The two-letter abbreviations really aren't very good where they need to be clear quickly to people who are not from that region. I'm sure everyone here is detail-oriented and interested in geography and would know immediately whether MI is Minnesota, Mississippi, or Missouri, but the traditional abbreviations used by the Associate Press Style Guide (most newspapers), the American Library Association (library catalogs), and Government Printing Office (most US government publications) are much more quickly understood.
Maybe it's just me, but I thought even the dumbest motorist knew if they were in eastern Louisiana, the next state to the east is Mississippi, so if the distance sign has a distance to Vicksburg, MS, the motorist should know it's not Missouri or Minnesota. I find that the MS is adequate enough. I don't think anyone will leave Louisiana and think they are now in Minnesota.
That's another point to this whole side conversation. I don't know why the state is even labeled on the mileage sign. The way I think of it, local traffic knows they are, for example, 30 miles from the state line, so any distance greater than that lands you in the next state. Then the non-local traffic is aware of where they are because they should have done the research before they left their home. Most of the time the town has enough notoriety that you know what state it's in. If you are in eastern Arkansas and you see a mileage to "Memphis", they know it's the town in Tennessee. I guess I get it when the towns are less know towns, and the sign does alert you that between here and that town you will be crossing a state line. Besides a few minor driving law changes, which usually the new state will inform you of these by sign at the state line, or you are trying to buy liquor in a grocery store, in the US, there isn't much knowledge gained by knowing that you will be in a different state when you reach the town listed. Not much in the US changes between the states by crossing the state line other that the signage of the state line itself. Unless you are driving there to commit a crime that's illegal in one state but legal in the next. :bigass:
^^^^
On the other hand, I was absolutely flabbergasted the last time we drove south through North Carolina and my wife thought the sign seen in the Street View link below was referring to the capital of Tennessee, given that she knew very well we were in eastern North Carolina. Apparently she didn't realize just how long North Carolina is from east to west (nor, I guess, that the same is true of Tennessee).
https://goo.gl/maps/zx51gF8dXa3BoUni7
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on October 19, 2020, 04:41:58 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 19, 2020, 04:03:35 PM
The two-letter abbreviations were created by and for the Post Office in the early 1960s. The Post Office was introducing zip codes and if the city name was long some commercial mailers didn't have enough space in their address blocks for the traditional state abbreviations that could be as long as five letters.
The two-letter abbreviations really aren't very good where they need to be clear quickly to people who are not from that region. I'm sure everyone here is detail-oriented and interested in geography and would know immediately whether MI is Minnesota, Mississippi, or Missouri, but the traditional abbreviations used by the Associate Press Style Guide (most newspapers), the American Library Association (library catalogs), and Government Printing Office (most US government publications) are much more quickly understood.
Maybe it's just me, but I thought even the dumbest motorist knew if they were in eastern Louisiana, the next state to the east is Mississippi, so if the distance sign has a distance to Vicksburg, MS, the motorist should know it's not Missouri or Minnesota. I find that the MS is adequate enough. I don't think anyone will leave Louisiana and think they are now in Minnesota.
It's not just road signs, though. Many things use the two-letter abbreviations.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on October 19, 2020, 04:41:58 PM
That's another point to this whole side conversation. I don't know why the state is even labeled on the mileage sign. The way I think of it, local traffic knows they are, for example, 30 miles from the state line, so any distance greater than that lands you in the next state. Then the non-local traffic is aware of where they are because they should have done the research before they left their home. Most of the time the town has enough notoriety that you know what state it's in. If you are in eastern Arkansas and you see a mileage to "Memphis", they know it's the town in Tennessee.
Yes, usually adding the state should be unnecessary. Maybe if there are two cities of the same name that are both likely to be used as a point of reference from the sign. Or if the city is particularly unexpected to be on the sign, like the "Sacramento, Ca 3073" sign on U.S. 50 in Ocean City.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on October 19, 2020, 10:26:13 AM
Why, on mileage signs, do some states show mileage to a city in another state, acknowledge the name of the state, choose to abbreviate it, but not use the standard postal abbreviation?
Quote from: GaryV on October 19, 2020, 01:23:28 PM
"CA" is not an abbreviation - it is a postal code.
This is the answer, plain and simple.
In a few cases, the postal code is a true abbreviation:
– VA / Va.
– NM / N. M.
But, in most cases, nobody would naturally abbreviate a word like that:
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Mississippi" as "Ms."?
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Arizona" as "Az."?
As has been mentioned, true abbreviations are more easily identified by those unfamiliar with postal codes.
Imagine being an out-of-state traveler in northern Wisconsin, not knowing whether
MI referred to
Michigan or
Minnesota, not knowing whether
MN referred to
Michiga
n or
Mi
nnesota.
Imagine being a tourist from another country, traveling in the Northeast, not knowing whether
MA referred to
Maryland or
Massachusetts.
It's second nature to you only because you're already very familiar with state postal codes. But most people out there don't know the postal codes for states other than the one they live in, possibly a handful of other ones. My co-worker is always asking me what state a given postal code refers to as she processes applications. And the drivers who need directions the most are more likely than you to not know other states' postal codes.
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2020, 03:37:40 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on October 19, 2020, 10:26:13 AM
Why, on mileage signs, do some states show mileage to a city in another state, acknowledge the name of the state, choose to abbreviate it, but not use the standard postal abbreviation?
Quote from: GaryV on October 19, 2020, 01:23:28 PM
"CA" is not an abbreviation - it is a postal code.
This is the answer, plain and simple.
In a few cases, the postal code is a true abbreviation:
– VA / Va.
– NM / N. M.
But, in most cases, nobody would naturally abbreviate a word like that:
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Mississippi" as "Ms."?
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Arizona" as "Az."?
As has been mentioned, true abbreviations are more easily identified by those unfamiliar with postal codes.
Imagine being an out-of-state traveler in northern Wisconsin, not knowing whether MI referred to Michigan or Minnesota, not knowing whether MN referred to Michigan or Minnesota.
Imagine being a tourist from another country, traveling in the Northeast, not knowing whether MA referred to Maryland or Massachusetts.
It's second nature to you only because you're already very familiar with state postal codes. But most people out there don't know the postal codes for states other than the one they live in, possibly a handful of other ones. My co-worker is always asking me what state a given postal code refers to as she processes applications. And the drivers who need directions the most are more likely than you to not know other states' postal codes.
Just to add some confusion, boat registrations also use a 2 letter state code, but not all are the same as the postal codes. Michigan = MC, Mississippi = MI, Massachusetts = MS
Some states use abbreviations of other states as a matter of practice. West Virginia does (with a major exception being the mentions of Richmond and Charlotte on the WV Turnpike split of I-64 and I-77 at Beckley). Virginia, mostly, does not, except in a few places. If you're traveling west on US 460 out of Christiansburg/Blacksburg, you'll see signage for Bluefield, W. Va., because you get there before you get to Bluefield, Va. You'll also see signage for Pikeville, without the state mentioned, where US 460 splits from US 19. However, if you're headed east on US 460, signage refers to Bluefield without the state listed.
Kentucky is hit-and-miss. Some districts use the state with an out-of-state destination (W. Va. for Williamson on US 119; Va. for Grundy on US 460) while other districts omit the state (most references to Union City in far western Kentucky don't mention Tennessee.)
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 19, 2020, 05:06:55 PM
^^^^
On the other hand, I was absolutely flabbergasted the last time we drove south through North Carolina and my wife thought the sign seen in the Street View link below was referring to the capital of Tennessee, given that she knew very well we were in eastern North Carolina. Apparently she didn't realize just how long North Carolina is from east to west (nor, I guess, that the same is true of Tennessee).
https://goo.gl/maps/zx51gF8dXa3BoUni7
I mean, if you're at that point on I-95 south, that is the best exit to take for Nashville, TN.
Quote from: cabiness42 on October 20, 2020, 03:42:40 PM
Just to add some confusion, boat registrations also use a 2 letter state code, but not all are the same as the postal codes. Michigan = MC, Mississippi = MI, Massachusetts = MS
:banghead: I did not know this.
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2020, 03:37:40 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on October 19, 2020, 10:26:13 AM
Why, on mileage signs, do some states show mileage to a city in another state, acknowledge the name of the state, choose to abbreviate it, but not use the standard postal abbreviation?
Quote from: GaryV on October 19, 2020, 01:23:28 PM
"CA" is not an abbreviation - it is a postal code.
This is the answer, plain and simple.
In a few cases, the postal code is a true abbreviation:
– VA / Va.
– NM / N. M.
But, in most cases, nobody would naturally abbreviate a word like that:
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Mississippi" as "Ms."?
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Arizona" as "Az."?
Adding to this, some of the postal codes (and traditional abbreviations, even!) don't make a whole lot of sense. I never naturally abbreviate anything with the first and last letter, for instance. I know Virginia is VA (or Va.) because I've seen it a million times, but absent any knowledge, I'd be apt to abbreviate it as "Virg.", "Vir.", VI, or VR. Likewise, Maryland would probably become "Mary.", MR, or MY.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 20, 2020, 07:36:09 PM
Adding to this, some of the postal codes (and traditional abbreviations, even!) don't make a whole lot of sense. I never naturally abbreviate anything with the first and last letter, for instance. I know Virginia is VA (or Va.) because I've seen it a million times, but absent any knowledge, I'd be apt to abbreviate it as "Virg.", "Vir.", VI, or VR. Likewise, Maryland would probably become "Mary.", MR, or MY.
But skipping to the last letter
is one common abbreviation convention, notably for names:
William → W
mCharles → Cha
sDorothy → D
yFrancis → F
sJames → Ja
sJohn → J
nMary → M
yRobert → Rob
t
Quote from: kphoger on October 21, 2020, 09:26:39 AM
William → Wm
Charles → Chas
Dorothy → Dy
Francis → Fs
James → Jas
John → Jn
Mary → My
Robert → Robt
Eek. My eyes are bleeding.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 20, 2020, 07:36:09 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2020, 03:37:40 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on October 19, 2020, 10:26:13 AM
Why, on mileage signs, do some states show mileage to a city in another state, acknowledge the name of the state, choose to abbreviate it, but not use the standard postal abbreviation?
Quote from: GaryV on October 19, 2020, 01:23:28 PM
"CA" is not an abbreviation - it is a postal code.
This is the answer, plain and simple.
In a few cases, the postal code is a true abbreviation:
– VA / Va.
– NM / N. M.
But, in most cases, nobody would naturally abbreviate a word like that:
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Mississippi" as "Ms."?
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Arizona" as "Az."?
Adding to this, some of the postal codes (and traditional abbreviations, even!) don't make a whole lot of sense. I never naturally abbreviate anything with the first and last letter, for instance. I know Virginia is VA (or Va.) because I've seen it a million times, but absent any knowledge, I'd be apt to abbreviate it as "Virg.", "Vir.", VI, or VR. Likewise, Maryland would probably become "Mary.", MR, or MY.
The problem with VI is that it had been in use for Virgin Islands for a long time before the post office created their codes.
Quote from: webny99 on October 21, 2020, 09:40:33 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 21, 2020, 09:26:39 AM
William → Wm
Charles → Chas
Dorothy → Dy
Francis → Fs
James → Jas
John → Jn
Mary → My
Robert → Robt
Eek. My eyes are bleeding.
?? Huh ??
Were you unaware of any of those?
My eldest son's name is William, and I've always abbreviated it as "Wm".
Heck, Chas/Chaz is even a common
nickname for Charles.
Quote from: kphoger on October 21, 2020, 10:46:41 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 21, 2020, 09:40:33 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 21, 2020, 09:26:39 AM
William → Wm
Charles → Chas
Dorothy → Dy
Francis → Fs
James → Jas
John → Jn
Mary → My
Robert → Robt
Eek. My eyes are bleeding.
?? Huh ??
Were you unaware of any of those?
My eldest son's name is William, and I've always abbreviated it as "Wm".
Heck, Chas/Chaz is even a common nickname for Charles.
I've never heard of any of these at all.
Wow! You guys must not look at historic documents very much.
The signatures below are all from the Declaration of Independence:
Fras Hopkinson
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Francis_Hopkinson_signature.png/128px-Francis_Hopkinson_signature.png)
Frans Lewis
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6f/Francis_Lewis_signature.png/150px-Francis_Lewis_signature.png)
Jas Smith
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/James_Smith_signature.png/150px-James_Smith_signature.png)
Richd Stockton
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Richard_Stockton_signature.png/150px-Richard_Stockton_signature.png)
Robt Morris
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/Robert_Morris_signature.png/128px-Robert_Morris_signature.png)
Robt Treat Paine
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Robert_Paine_signature.png/150px-Robert_Paine_signature.png)
Saml Adams
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Samuel_Adams_Signature.svg/128px-Samuel_Adams_Signature.svg.png)
Samel Huntington
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Samuel_Huntington_Signature.svg/128px-Samuel_Huntington_Signature.svg.png)
Thos Heyward, Junr
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/Thomas_Heyward_signature.png/150px-Thomas_Heyward_signature.png)
Thos Nelson, Jr.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Thomas_Nelson_signature.png/128px-Thomas_Nelson_signature.png)
Thos Stone
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Thomas_Stone_signature.png/150px-Thomas_Stone_signature.png)
Wm Floyd
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/William_Floyd_signature.png/128px-William_Floyd_signature.png)
Wm Hooper
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/William_Hooper_signature.png/150px-William_Hooper_signature.png)
Wm Paca
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/William_Paca_Signature.svg/128px-William_Paca_Signature.svg.png)
Wm Whipple
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/William_Whipple_signature.png/100px-William_Whipple_signature.png)
Wm Williams
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/William_Williams_signature.png/150px-William_Williams_signature.png)
I am aware of those abbreviations (specifically Wm., Chas., and Robt.; the rest I would consider obscure) but they are relatively little-used in the present day. The only context I am aware of where new first-and-last letter abbreviations are used regularly is in open-source software development; "internationalization" is abbreviated to "i18n", since 18 letters are dropped from the middle of the word.
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2020, 03:37:40 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on October 19, 2020, 10:26:13 AM
Why, on mileage signs, do some states show mileage to a city in another state, acknowledge the name of the state, choose to abbreviate it, but not use the standard postal abbreviation?
Quote from: GaryV on October 19, 2020, 01:23:28 PM
"CA" is not an abbreviation - it is a postal code.
This is the answer, plain and simple.
In a few cases, the postal code is a true abbreviation:
– VA / Va.
– NM / N. M.
But, in most cases, nobody would naturally abbreviate a word like that:
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Mississippi" as "Ms."?
– Who would naturally abbreviate "Arizona" as "Az."?
As has been mentioned, true abbreviations are more easily identified by those unfamiliar with postal codes.
Imagine being an out-of-state traveler in northern Wisconsin, not knowing whether MI referred to Michigan or Minnesota, not knowing whether MN referred to Michigan or Minnesota.
Imagine being a tourist from another country, traveling in the Northeast, not knowing whether MA referred to Maryland or Massachusetts.
It's second nature to you only because you're already very familiar with state postal codes. But most people out there don't know the postal codes for states other than the one they live in, possibly a handful of other ones. My co-worker is always asking me what state a given postal code refers to as she processes applications. And the drivers who need directions the most are more likely than you to not know other states' postal codes.
Agreed, but the same argument could be said for Ark. If you are not from here, or not aware, do you really know if that's short for Arkansas? If it's trying to cut don on confusion, I got a great idea. How about write Arkansas, which is short for Arkansas?
Quote from: 1 on October 21, 2020, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 21, 2020, 10:46:41 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 21, 2020, 09:40:33 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 21, 2020, 09:26:39 AM
William → Wm
Charles → Chas
Dorothy → Dy
Francis → Fs
James → Jas
John → Jn
Mary → My
Robert → Robt
Eek. My eyes are bleeding.
?? Huh ??
Were you unaware of any of those?
My eldest son's name is William, and I've always abbreviated it as "Wm".
Heck, Chas/Chaz is even a common nickname for Charles.
I've never heard of any of these at all.
William, Charles, and Robert are the only ones of those listed above with which I am familiar. Also Jos. for Joseph.
But there are other abbreviations that use either the first letter or the first few letters, plus the last letter.
For example, this one (https://goo.gl/maps/PU7At5zxBRHxx9Yo9).
I also imagine you guys aren't thrown off by these:
Court – Ct
Road – Rd
Mount – Mt
Port – Pt
Not to mention VMSes abbreviating "Left" and "Right" to "LT" and "RT" respectively.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 21, 2020, 02:55:04 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 21, 2020, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 21, 2020, 10:46:41 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 21, 2020, 09:40:33 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 21, 2020, 09:26:39 AM
William → Wm
Charles → Chas
Dorothy → Dy
Francis → Fs
James → Jas
John → Jn
Mary → My
Robert → Robt
Eek. My eyes are bleeding.
?? Huh ??
Were you unaware of any of those?
My eldest son's name is William, and I've always abbreviated it as "Wm".
Heck, Chas/Chaz is even a common nickname for Charles.
I've never heard of any of these at all.
William, Charles, and Robert are the only ones of those listed above with which I am familiar. Also Jos. for Joseph.
I've seen Jn and Jas because in college I minored in religious studies and the New American Bible uses those abbreviations for the Gospel (and Epistles) of John and the Epistle of James. I can't say I've ever seen either of those abbreviations used anywhere else, however.
In citations to British statutes–which are cited by regnal year and monarch's name–"James" is abbreviated as "Jac." The reason for that is that "Jac." is short for "Jacobus," the Latin form of the name "James."
Quote from: kphoger on October 21, 2020, 03:03:22 PM
But there are other abbreviations that use either the first letter or the first few letters, plus the last letter.
For example, this one (https://goo.gl/maps/PU7At5zxBRHxx9Yo9).
I also imagine you guys aren't thrown off by these:
Court – Ct
Road – Rd
Mount – Mt
Port – Pt
Not to mention VMSes abbreviating "Left" and "Right" to "LT" and "RT" respectively.
To me, "Pt" means "point".
Quote from: US 89 on October 21, 2020, 06:16:42 PM
To me, "Pt" means "point".
Either way, it's the first and last letters of the word being abbreviated.
The difference with those is that they are all relatively short words where last letter happens to have stress on it/be an "important" letter in the word when pronounced. In "Virginia", the R and the G sounds are more prominent to me than the A at the end, so VR and VG would be more natural abbreviations to me than VA.
I'm familiar with:
William → Wm
Charles → Chas
James → Jas
John → Jn
Robert → Robt
(Sorry for the girl's names!)
Back in the day before typewriters, carbon paper, and such, scriveners would do just about anything to save a few letters in a word that was used frequently.
And I've heard of Jno -> Jonathan, but I'm still trying to figure out how it got that way.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on September 24, 2020, 04:58:00 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on September 24, 2020, 04:52:15 PM
If you're talking literally about the words "STATE LINE" only (without mentioning the state), I don't think I've ever seen that listed as a destination on a mileage sign.
But I have seen at least a couple of examples here in Pennsylvania (here's one (https://goo.gl/maps/7B2S71gS8QEnbZ587)) where something like "NJ State Line" was included on a post-interchange mileage sign. And most state borders are commonly included now on VMSes within 20-30 miles of a border, although I don't think that is what you were looking for.
YEah, I was looking for just "STATE LINE" with no reference to the state, but still that one is a rare bird.
[/quotQuote from: ethanhopkin14 on September 24, 2020, 04:58:00 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on September 24, 2020, 04:52:15 PM
If you're talking literally about the words "STATE LINE" only (without mentioning the state), I don't think I've ever seen that listed as a destination on a mileage sign.
But I have seen at least a couple of examples here in Pennsylvania (here's one (https://goo.gl/maps/7B2S71gS8QEnbZ587)) where something like "NJ State Line" was included on a post-interchange mileage sign. And most state borders are commonly included now on VMSes within 20-30 miles of a border, although I don't think that is what you were looking for.
YEah, I was looking for just "STATE LINE" with no reference to the state, but still that one is a rare bird.
In Oklahoma on the US 59 & US 69 concurrency north of I-44 and US 60, you have State Line on the mileage sign. However, being that both routes head into Kansas after Oklahoma, that is ambiguous as well as confusing. Both routes do not travel the same distance and only one could be correct. In fact when US 66 was around, it would be three locations as US 66 used to concur here as well. It might be for defunct US 66 as that was the main road at the time, especially of Oklahoma likes to copy information on signs when replaced.
Quote from: kkt on October 21, 2020, 09:38:25 PM
And I've heard of Jno -> Jonathan, but I'm still trying to figure out how it got that way.
I've seen Jno on old docs, like census forms or wills, while doing genealogical research. Wasn't sure what it stood for. I thought maybe Jonas, but again not sure how that would be derived.
Quote from: GaryV on October 22, 2020, 07:37:00 AM
Quote from: kkt on October 21, 2020, 09:38:25 PM
And I've heard of Jno -> Jonathan, but I'm still trying to figure out how it got that way.
I've seen Jno on old docs, like census forms or wills, while doing genealogical research. Wasn't sure what it stood for. I thought maybe Jonas, but again not sure how that would be derived.
One source I found just now said "Jno" is short for "John" and "Joh" is short for "Jonathan." This begs the question of why it would be necessary to abbreviate a four-letter word to three letters other than, perhaps, in computer databases or similar.
Although I have found no actual evidence to support the theory...
It's possible that "Jhohannes" in Latin was abbreviated as Jho., then that spelling fell out of favor (leaving only "Johannes" in use), and then the ascender on the letter "h" ended up being dropped.
Thus: Jhohannes/Jho. → Johannes/Jho. → Johannes/Jno. → John/Jno.
I actually prefer the older abbreviations to be used on signs for states. A lot of them make sense.
Ill, Ind, Mich, Minn, Neb & Wis are all recognizable.
"Ill." can be kind of problematic, if used in mixed case, since it just looks like three vertical bars at a glance and the meaning may not be readily apparent on a sign ("Rockford III? Where's Rockford, Jr.?"). All-capital IL works better on a sign.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 01, 2020, 06:24:09 PM
"Ill." can be kind of problematic, if used in mixed case, since it just looks like three vertical bars at a glance and the meaning may not be readily apparent on a sign ("Rockford III? Where's Rockford, Jr.?"). All-capital IL works better on a sign.
Clearview helps. (https://goo.gl/maps/rWCc5JqjEaUE7S4N6)
(That sign uses 'Il' as the abbreviation instead of 'Ill', though.)
It does, but it's still not as readable as if they used a capital L.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 02, 2020, 04:44:35 PM
It does, but it's still not as readable as if they used a capital L.
That particular sign still looks like a Roman numeral to me in the image linked above. Not as pronounced as it would be using Gothic, true, but it still looks like it's advertising the sequel to something called Nashville.
Quote from: kphoger on November 02, 2020, 02:34:11 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 01, 2020, 06:24:09 PM
"Ill." can be kind of problematic, if used in mixed case, since it just looks like three vertical bars at a glance and the meaning may not be readily apparent on a sign ("Rockford III? Where's Rockford, Jr.?"). All-capital IL works better on a sign.
Clearview helps. (https://goo.gl/maps/rWCc5JqjEaUE7S4N6)
(That sign uses 'Il' as the abbreviation instead of 'Ill', though.)
If Clearview is the answer, how dumb is the question?
Quote from: rarnold on November 02, 2020, 08:58:45 PM
If Clearview is the answer, how dumb is the question?
If the question is
'Why would a sign font choose to make lowercase "l" look almost identical to uppercase "I"', then...
Seriously. Back when Clearview was just being approved by the FHWA, I was already putting little tails on my lowercase els on hitchhiking signs. I also can't stand computer fonts that make the two look the same on screen.
The FHWA lowercase L has a slanted top, and the I does not, which helps distinguish it, but it's quite a subtle distinction.
RutaCL (the Chile font) entirely nuked the problem from orbit by putting serifs on the capital I and slanted tops and feet on the lowercase L, just to be sure.
(https://i.imgur.com/AaLWTRS.png)
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2020, 10:54:02 PM
The FHWA lowercase L has a slanted top, and the I does not, which helps distinguish it, but it's quite a subtle distinction.
Yeah, it's hardly more easily distinguished than the two glyphs in Clearview.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2020, 10:54:02 PM
RutaCL (the Chile font) entirely nuked the problem from orbit by putting serifs on the capital I and slanted tops and feet on the lowercase L, just to be sure.
I guess I'm just not in favor of a sans-serif capital 'I' on signs in general.
Quote from: Scott5114 on November 04, 2020, 10:54:02 PM
The FHWA lowercase L has a slanted top, and the I does not, which helps distinguish it, but it's quite a subtle distinction.
RutaCL (the Chile font) entirely nuked the problem from orbit by putting serifs on the capital I and slanted tops and feet on the lowercase L, just to be sure.
(https://i.imgur.com/AaLWTRS.png)
I like that one :)
Quote from: 1 on October 21, 2020, 10:47:18 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 21, 2020, 10:46:41 AM
Quote from: webny99 on October 21, 2020, 09:40:33 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 21, 2020, 09:26:39 AM
William → Wm
Charles → Chas
Dorothy → Dy
Francis → Fs
James → Jas
John → Jn
Mary → My
Robert → Robt
Eek. My eyes are bleeding.
?? Huh ??
Were you unaware of any of those?
My eldest son's name is William, and I've always abbreviated it as "Wm".
Heck, Chas/Chaz is even a common nickname for Charles.
I've never heard of any of these at all.
They, and others, are quite common in old city directories up until the 1960s-70s. It makes for quite interesting reading while puting together a Phase I environmental site assessment for a property.
My favorite wacky name abbreviation is Jno. for John or Jonathan.
Three letters and a period as an abbreviation for a four letter name!
Plus the letters out of order.
I found one in MN, on US 14 west of Lake Benton heading toward SD. "Canadian Border" is also a prominently used control on MN 61, alternating with Thunder Bay.