The ROR Traffic Conflict thread reminds me of a relatively new problem we are experiencing in Central North Carolina. I haven't encountered this issue anywhere else, but don't travel as much anymore. I notice a lot of interest in P/PFY signals in the Traffic Control board, so perhaps someone here has seen some of these problems elsewhere.
On freeway onramps, NCDOT installed yield signs for right turns at signals when they were upgraded to P/PFY turn signals. (Not long after, NCDOT started installing the yield signs at pretty much every onramp with large right turn radii (better than WB 50), irrespective of whether they are signalized). Locals here quickly noticed folks stopping at the yield signs for oncoming traffic, and now most everybody flowing with the rush hour traffic cuts off traffic making wide right turns. In many cases, I have seen cars at the yield sign wait for 20 or more vehicles (before I stop at the left turn and let them into traffic). In some cases, even I will need to cut them off in order to keep traffic flow behind me moving.
For the DOT guys amongst us, am I right that the intention of the yield sign on a WB 50 right turn is to protect slower left turn traffic from being cut off by right turn traffic speeding through the curve radius? And not to allow a steady stream of left turns?
One trick to stop this is to come up to the intersection and attack perpendicular. Oncoming traffic is forced to properly yield to the oncoming right turn. You can't do this if somebody is following behind you.
The title to thread is weird. I'm going to see if I can change it.
You might have to post an example, I'm not sure I understand. Right turns should either be yield controlled or signal controlled, not both. To be yield controlled I assume they have a channelizing island. I think I see what you're saying, and when the right turns don't have a dedicated lane the opposing lefts essentially have to yield to rights too.
Might help if you post an example, and also explain what "P/PFY" means...
Quote from: roadfro on October 17, 2020, 04:43:21 PM
Might help if you post an example, and also explain what "P/PFY" means...
Sorry. Protected and/or permissive flashing yellow left turn signal.
Quote from: johndoe on October 17, 2020, 02:35:44 PM
You might have to post an example, I'm not sure I understand. Right turns should either be yield controlled or signal controlled, not both. To be yield controlled I assume they have a channelizing island. I think I see what you're saying, and when the right turns don't have a dedicated lane the opposing lefts essentially have to yield to rights too.
Sorry, but I'm unable to post a map view of an example right now (this computer has limited capabilities). But a good example is at I-85/I-40 Exit 148 for NC-54 in Graham, North Carolina. At the eastbound onramp, the left turn from eastbound NC-54 has a permissive flashing yellow left turn signal (may also have have a protected left turn, but I've never seen it working). There is no channelizing island, but there is a yield sign for right turns from northbound NC-54. When the southbound lanes get the flashing yellow left turn, pretty much everybody making the left turn cuts off anybody in the northbound lanes with their right turn signals on. It's understandable that the flashing yellow encourages left turns to cutoff right turns, but I can't comprehend this at the unsignalized onramps (Exit 152 Trollingwood Road, Exit 157 Buckhorn Road and Exit 160 Efland).
Almost every on-ramp between Exit 141 (Huffman Mill Road) and Exit 160 (Efland) has/had these yield signs, regardless of whether the ramps are signalized. The two exceptions are at Exit 154 (Mebane-Oaks Road) at the Tanger Outlets where eastbound lanes only have a protected left turn; and Exit 153 (NC-119) which was recently changed to a DDI (diverging diamond) that eliminates the opposing moves. Even though Burlington and Mebane experience rush hour in both directions (east toward Raleigh/Durham and west toward Greensboro), the only issues I've ever seen are on the eastbound onramps.
Wacky note: Even the locals call these onramps eastbound, even though it was only I-85 northbound for many years.
When WVDOH uses Yield signs for right-turn movements at signalized intersections, it's to signify the right-turn movement isn't signal-controlled. All of the cases I can think of involve painted or raised islands. In this circumstance, left-turning traffic would technically take precedence over the right-turn traffic although in most cases, left-turning vehicles wait unless they have an arrow.
An example of this setup is at the intersection of University Avenue (US 19/WV 7/US 119) and the Westover Bridge (US 19) in Morgantown: https://goo.gl/maps/LaVswJwCXp7Cz2DP6
This thread brings up an interesting situation, and one that I've thought about for a while.
In Washington State, nearly all slip lanes that have yield signs are separated by full-blown porkchop islands; painted separation is far more often used to help channelize traffic rather than separate a movement (chiefly, right turns) from the signal (good example here in Puyallup, WA (https://goo.gl/maps/X3BLqYsdgowhyqBS6)). The common practice in some eastern states of using tiny painted island to separate right turns from the signal, with posted yield signs, is basically unheard of.
In British Columbia, slip lanes are used at virtually all major intersections along the main highway network, even in fairly urban areas. Not all turns will have them, but it's common for at least one to appear at most major signals. These slip lanes are never separated by paint; raised porkchop islands are always used. If there is not enough room for them, and accompanying pedestrian ramps, signal mast/-arms, and other equipment (example here of newer typical install (https://goo.gl/maps/T7TjYoFWxPH4rNAc9)), slip lanes are not used. When there is room, they are sometimes used excessively (https://www.google.com/maps/@49.1919988,-122.7786263,460m/data=!3m1!1e3).
I find slip lanes to be an important asset for permissive left turns, because they cut down substantially on the number of cars that must be given way to. Cars turning right, even without a slip lane, are free in most areas to turn when it's clear. Left turns, on the other hand, are more often limited in the ability to turn freely. Designs that allow left turns precedent over right turns make more sense to me, because they trade excess right turn capacity for an increase in left turn capacity (a huge issue at many intersections).
This left turn (https://goo.gl/maps/FuD5hHhtJz1rvgCe9) in New Westminster, BC shows what I mean: traffic turning left from northbound Howes St must yield to southbound traffic except on a flashing green arrow, but they have priority over the slip lane which has a yield sign and is separate from the signal. This design is basically perfect: the heaviest movement (southbound) has priority over left turns unless they have a green arrow; left turns have priority over right turns but are limited by available gaps in southbound traffic; both are limited by the need to provide a green light to off-ramp traffic. Right turns onto the ramp have a yield sign, thus the lowest priority, but can turn at any time; the left turn, on the other hand, is limited by both the off-ramp and southbound traffic, so an ideal design (like this) assigns priority to the left turn over the right turn since the left turn already suffers from capacity limitations due to southbound traffic and the off-ramp.
That's a lot, I know, but I hope I'm making sense. Good idea for a topic, even if the terminology (P/PFY?) is a bit confusing.
It would seem here that they are giving left turning vehicles the advantage because they don't have a many opportunities to turn left.
A yield sign means you don't have the right of way. If you're going thru a yield sign and intentionally cutting off vehicles turning left, you are 100% in the wrong.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 20, 2020, 05:28:24 AM
It would seem here that they are giving left turning vehicles the advantage because they don't have a many opportunities to turn left.
A yield sign means you don't have the right of way. If you're going thru a yield sign and intentionally cutting off vehicles turning left, you are 100% in the wrong.
Depends on the situation.
On the other side of the I-85 example (https://goo.gl/maps/aQJDkPjk3PpwAgwq6), the on-ramp is two lanes. Right-turn traffic has a single lane, and left-turn traffic has a single lane. In theory, then, both should be able to proceed into the on-ramp at the same time. In other words: if you're turning left into the rightmost lane of the ramp (intentionally cutting off vehicles turning right), you are also 100% in the wrong.
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2020, 04:07:54 PM
On the other side of the I-85 example (https://goo.gl/maps/aQJDkPjk3PpwAgwq6), the on-ramp is two lanes. Right-turn traffic has a single lane, and left-turn traffic has a single lane. In theory, then, both should be able to proceed into the on-ramp at the same time. In other words: if you're turning left into the rightmost lane of the ramp (intentionally cutting off vehicles turning right), you are also 100% in the wrong.
Yikes. My example has no yield sign. I use this onramp fairly often, as it is close to my tractor dealer (got to go there tomorrow). I didn't remember the two-lane onramp either (which is probably why there is no yield sign). However, I certainly have seen folks making the left turn on a flashing yellow proceed quickly as if they have a protected green in order to cut off the right turn traffic (in this case pass the car in the right lane). Folks making the right turns in this corridor are now jittery, and typically stop because the whole line of left turn traffic takes over.
Thanks for posting the link.
I just assumed a Yield sign had been installed since GSV was taken.
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2020, 04:07:54 PM
On the other side of the I-85 example (https://goo.gl/maps/aQJDkPjk3PpwAgwq6), the on-ramp is two lanes. Right-turn traffic has a single lane, and left-turn traffic has a single lane. In theory, then, both should be able to proceed into the on-ramp at the same time. In other words: if you're turning left into the rightmost lane of the ramp (intentionally cutting off vehicles turning right), you are also 100% in the wrong.
Went by there this morning. I'm so accustomed to seeing this that I wasn't paying attention. The GSV shot is for looking back up the onramp for the westbound side (you did say "On the other side").
Quote from: Dirt Roads on October 20, 2020, 04:29:27 PM
Yikes. My example has no yield sign. I use this onramp fairly often, as it is close to my tractor dealer (got to go there tomorrow). I didn't remember the two-lane onramp either (which is probably why there is no yield sign). However, I certainly have seen folks making the left turn on a flashing yellow proceed quickly as if they have a protected green in order to cut off the right turn traffic (in this case pass the car in the right lane). Folks making the right turns in this corridor are now jittery, and typically stop because the whole line of left turn traffic takes over.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on October 20, 2020, 04:29:27 PMThanks for posting the link.
Quote from: kphoger on October 20, 2020, 04:33:10 PM
I just assumed a Yield sign had been installed since GSV was taken.
The GSV for both sides looks just it does today. Indeed, there is no yield sign for either the eastbound or westbound onramps. Furthermore, the eastbound onramp is not constructed for WB 50 turn radius, probably because Harden Street (NC-54) is multilane 2+1+2 at this interchange. I didn't get a good view as I drove by, but it also looked like the Trollingwood Road exit (Exit 152) did not have a yield sign for the eastbound onramp.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on October 17, 2020, 10:47:09 PM
Quote from: roadfro on October 17, 2020, 04:43:21 PM
Might help if you post an example, and also explain what "P/PFY" means...
Sorry. Protected and/or permissive flashing yellow left turn signal.
I don't think this is a real term. "Protected flashing yellow" is not a thing in the US, and not something I've heard of being a thing elsewhere... :confused:
Is there a better way to differentiate when a FYA includes a protected phase and when it is permissive-only?
Quote from: roadfro on October 17, 2020, 04:43:21 PM
Might help if you post an example, and also explain what "P/PFY" means...
Quote from: Dirt Roads on October 17, 2020, 10:47:09 PM
Sorry. Protected and/or permissive flashing yellow left turn signal.
Quote from: roadfro on October 30, 2020, 09:42:35 PM
I don't think this is a real term. "Protected flashing yellow" is not a thing in the US, and not something I've heard of being a thing elsewhere... :confused:
Sorry again. My mother was an English teacher. I can hear her from the grave telling me to split the noun rather than using lingo. Protected left turn and/or permissive flashing yellow left turn. Department of Redundancy Department.
Quote from: froggie on October 30, 2020, 09:46:20 PM
Is there a better way to differentiate when a FYA includes a protected phase and when it is permissive-only?
Perhaps. But what the point I was trying to make is that traffic doesn't seem to care whether there is a protected left turn, a permissive flashing left turn, or a non-signalized onramp. In each case, the left turn traffic reacts the same way to oncoming traffic making a right turn. Obviously, in the case of a protected left turn, they have the right-of-way and the opposing right turn has both a red signal display and a yield sign. But I still contend that a right turn arriving at the intersection first has the right-of-way over the left turn traffic.
This morning, I was four cars behind a car making a left turn at one of the non-signalized onramps. The first left turn arrived before the car making a right turn, which stopped at the yield signs. The next three cars proceeded to cut him off, even though they arrived at the intersection several seconds after the right turn yield. I did my usual slow-up and flash ahead, and the car at the yield sign waved and proceeded ahead of me without any impact to my progress. This was the first time I've seen anyone do this. If he hadn't taken his place in the line-up, most certainly the next 20 cars or more would have continued to cut him off. This only seems to happen at the eastbound onramps towards Raleigh/Durham, except:
Yesterday morning, I was making a right turn for the westbound onramp at the next exit down (also non-signalized). An opposing UPS panel van tried to speed up to see if he could get me to yield before he made the left turn. I maintained my speed through the turn and he simply tucked in behind me without issue. This is the first time I've witnessed someone intentionally trying to make the cutoff maneuver for one of the westbound onramps (toward Burlington/Greensboro).
Quote from: Dirt Roads on October 31, 2020, 12:26:44 AM
I still contend that a right turn arriving at the intersection first has the right-of-way over the left turn traffic.
A vehicle facing a red light doesn't have the right of way over
anybody. If someone else has to wait because that driver proceeded, then that driver was in the wrong.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on October 31, 2020, 12:26:44 AM
I still contend that a right turn arriving at the intersection first has the right-of-way over the left turn traffic.
Quote from: kphoger on October 31, 2020, 03:00:41 PM
A vehicle facing a red light doesn't have the right of way over anybody. If someone else has to wait because that driver proceeded, then that driver was in the wrong.
Agreed. In all of these cases, the right turn is with the green through phase or the intersection is non-signalized. (Gosh, its getting hard to not write signallized with two Els as was common on my home railroad).
Quote from: froggie on October 30, 2020, 09:46:20 PM
Is there a better way to differentiate when a FYA includes a protected phase and when it is permissive-only?
FYA that is permissive only: "permissive-only FYA signal"
Regular FYA signal: "FYA signal"
At the other end is the far-rarer protected-only FYA signal, as seen often in Minnesota. I suppose these could be referred to as "protected-only FYA signals", but that is admittedly awkward.
Perhaps we need another term to describe FYA signals: "four-section left turn display"? For an FYA that is permissive only, "three-section permissive-only left turn display".