After a $44 million investment on I-475 in Flint, now there is a proposal to boulevard the freeway through the downtown area.
https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2020/10/i-475-proposal-imagines-massive-investment-new-look-for-downtown-flint.html
475 is Probably not needed anymore in downtown flint. But I doubt this will happen. Sounds like what they tried to convince indot to do on 65/70 in Indianapolis.
I don't think they necessarily need to rip out I-475 in this area. They have a number of options, particularly since it's already a depressed freeway.
They could cover the I-475 roadway through downtown with park space, for example (like in Oak Park). The frontage streets (Chavez Dr) could be converted to two-way operation with roundabouts at the entrances and exits. They could also eliminate the exits/entrances between 5th St. and Longway Blvd, and reconnect the cross streets. All of this can be done without pulling out I-475 altogether.
In the Rochester example cited, the Inner Loop was strictly for traffic to/from downtown. It had no regional importance as a roadway. That made it an easier call to rip it out in their case. The Rochester example is more analogous to the I-375 discussion in Detroit.
MDOT's choices are either to somehow maintain I-475 in the area (with adjustments to make its presence less of an issue in downtown), or to scrap the N-S roadway and reroute it on a more easterly bypass.
Or, like the State of Michigan was fond of doing under the previous administration, tell Flint to pound sand. That's probably not advisable, though.
Ultimately, it's probably cheaper to cover I-475 with park space and reconfigure the surface streets.
What a dimwitted, short sighted, stupid idea that is!
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 10:53:30 AM
What a dimwitted, short sighted, stupid idea that is!
Because Flint is going to have a resurgence? I don't see one of the largest corporations in the world establishing themselves in Flint again and employ as many people as GM did.
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2020, 11:59:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 10:53:30 AM
What a dimwitted, short sighted, stupid idea that is!
Because Flint is going to have a resurgence? I don't see one of the largest corporations in the world establishing themselves in Flint again and employ as many people as GM did.
Exactly. So leave it alone. There is absolutely no sense in throwing millions of dollars away on a stupid project that is going to do nothing but create more traffic tie ups along I-75, I-69 and throughout town. Totally backwards thinking. Ever travel I-75 on weekends? Backups are horrible and there are few viable options. A few years ago they were talking about extending I-475 to the south to US-23. There's already a fair amount of traffic on I-475. It needs to stay free flowing.
How are traffic numbers on I-475, including historic trends?
Mike
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 12:30:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2020, 11:59:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 10:53:30 AM
What a dimwitted, short sighted, stupid idea that is!
Because Flint is going to have a resurgence? I don't see one of the largest corporations in the world establishing themselves in Flint again and employ as many people as GM did.
Exactly. So leave it alone. There is absolutely no sense in throwing millions of dollars away on a stupid project that is going to do nothing but create more traffic tie ups along I-75, I-69 and throughout town. Totally backwards thinking. Ever travel I-75 on weekends? Backups are horrible and there are few viable options. A few years ago they were talking about extending I-475 to the south to US-23. There's already a fair amount of traffic on I-475. It needs to stay free flowing.
Or put I-475 on US-23 to Toledo where it connects with I-475 there and the remainder of I-475 OH becomes I-875. Boom, Detroit Bypass
What a stupid idea. I-475 has nearly 60,000 VPD just north of the I-69 interchange and they want to make it into a boulevard? It's a high speed federal Interstate highway. MDOT won't ever approve this.
Quote from: I-55 on October 24, 2020, 03:04:18 AM
Or put I-475 on US-23 to Toledo where it connects with I-475 there and the remainder of I-475 OH becomes I-875. Boom, Detroit Bypass
Unlike other states, Michigan has not seen the need to slap an Interstate number on every freeway.
Quote from: mgk920 on October 23, 2020, 11:48:49 PM
How are traffic numbers on I-475, including historic trends?
Mike
They are around 60,000 a day near downtown Flint north of the I-69 interchange and around 18,000 the lowest count on the freeway on the northern part by Clio Road.
Quote from: GaryV on October 24, 2020, 09:36:38 AM
Quote from: I-55 on October 24, 2020, 03:04:18 AM
Or put I-475 on US-23 to Toledo where it connects with I-475 there and the remainder of I-475 OH becomes I-875. Boom, Detroit Bypass
Unlike other states, Michigan has not seen the need to slap an Interstate number on every freeway.
That's putting it mildly. MDOT seems to absolutely hate Interstates, or at least interstate numbers!
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 24, 2020, 11:28:57 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 24, 2020, 09:36:38 AM
Quote from: I-55 on October 24, 2020, 03:04:18 AM
Or put I-475 on US-23 to Toledo where it connects with I-475 there and the remainder of I-475 OH becomes I-875. Boom, Detroit Bypass
Unlike other states, Michigan has not seen the need to slap an Interstate number on every freeway.
That's putting it mildly. MDOT seems to absolutely hate Interstates, or at least interstate numbers!
I don't think they hate interstates I think that they have announced that they are done building interstates though. So even I-73 which was the last proposed interstate in Michigan will never even enter the state probably not even Ohio either.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 25, 2020, 06:25:20 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 24, 2020, 11:28:57 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 24, 2020, 09:36:38 AM
Quote from: I-55 on October 24, 2020, 03:04:18 AM
Or put I-475 on US-23 to Toledo where it connects with I-475 there and the remainder of I-475 OH becomes I-875. Boom, Detroit Bypass
Unlike other states, Michigan has not seen the need to slap an Interstate number on every freeway.
That's putting it mildly. MDOT seems to absolutely hate Interstates, or at least interstate numbers!
I don't think they hate interstates I think that they have announced that they are done building interstates though. So even I-73 which was the last proposed interstate in Michigan will never even enter the state probably not even Ohio either.
They refused to put an interstate number on M-6 and removed signage on I-296 saying it was too confusing having X-96's. It's insulting. They might just as well say people in West Michigan are stupid.
Or they might be saying that the people in Michigan are smart enough that they don't need that fancy RWB shield to know where they are going.
Quote from: GaryV on October 25, 2020, 12:55:41 PM
Or they might be saying that the people in Michigan are smart enough that they don't need that fancy RWB shield to know where they are going.
Or they're saying "our roads are crap and aren't worthy of these signs" without blaming themselves.
Quote from: I-55 on October 25, 2020, 08:25:17 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 25, 2020, 12:55:41 PM
Or they might be saying that the people in Michigan are smart enough that they don't need that fancy RWB shield to know where they are going.
Or they're saying "our roads are crap and aren't worthy of these signs" without blaming themselves.
Actually the MDOT maintained roads aren't in terrible shape it's the local and county roads that are most of the time.
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 12:30:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2020, 11:59:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 10:53:30 AM
What a dimwitted, short sighted, stupid idea that is!
Because Flint is going to have a resurgence? I don't see one of the largest corporations in the world establishing themselves in Flint again and employ as many people as GM did.
Exactly. So leave it alone. There is absolutely no sense in throwing millions of dollars away on a stupid project that is going to do nothing but create more traffic tie ups along I-75, I-69 and throughout town. Totally backwards thinking. Ever travel I-75 on weekends? Backups are horrible and there are few viable options. A few years ago they were talking about extending I-475 to the south to US-23. There's already a fair amount of traffic on I-475. It needs to stay free flowing.
Let's be honest here we are talking about Flint city officials, they always are backwards thinking things. I don't even know why a city official would even suggest such a thing, doesn't Flint have bigger problems to worry about than this? I think so. It's a highway maintained by MDOT not the city so they can take this proposal and shove it up their sorry asses. I'm not talking that way to you of course but Flint city officials rather because they never have a good plan to improve anything in the city of Flint.
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 25, 2020, 08:37:18 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 12:30:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2020, 11:59:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 10:53:30 AM
What a dimwitted, short sighted, stupid idea that is!
Because Flint is going to have a resurgence? I don't see one of the largest corporations in the world establishing themselves in Flint again and employ as many people as GM did.
Exactly. So leave it alone. There is absolutely no sense in throwing millions of dollars away on a stupid project that is going to do nothing but create more traffic tie ups along I-75, I-69 and throughout town. Totally backwards thinking. Ever travel I-75 on weekends? Backups are horrible and there are few viable options. A few years ago they were talking about extending I-475 to the south to US-23. There's already a fair amount of traffic on I-475. It needs to stay free flowing.
Let's be honest here we are talking about Flint city officials, they always are backwards thinking things. I don't even know why a city official would even suggest such a thing, doesn't Flint have bigger problems to worry about than this? I think so. It's a highway maintained by MDOT not the city so they can take this proposal and shove it up their sorry asses. I'm not talking that way to you of course but Flint city officials rather because they never have a good plan to improve anything in the city of Flint.
I agree, but it's still no excuse for such stupidity.
Quote from: GaryV on October 25, 2020, 12:55:41 PM
Or they might be saying that the people in Michigan are smart enough that they don't need that fancy RWB shield to know where they are going.
but roads with that "fancy RWB shield" get special funding from the feds.
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 26, 2020, 08:28:40 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 25, 2020, 12:55:41 PM
Or they might be saying that the people in Michigan are smart enough that they don't need that fancy RWB shield to know where they are going.
but roads with that "fancy RWB shield" get special funding from the feds.
They
got special funding. Anything new since 1978 hasn't been funded under the original 90—10 funding split. The I-95—PA Turnpike Interchange Project was the last project to be funded from the original Interstate trust fund.
Quote from: bulldog1979 on October 26, 2020, 08:51:37 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on October 26, 2020, 08:28:40 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 25, 2020, 12:55:41 PM
Or they might be saying that the people in Michigan are smart enough that they don't need that fancy RWB shield to know where they are going.
but roads with that "fancy RWB shield" get special funding from the feds.
They got special funding. Anything new since 1978 hasn't been funded under the original 90—10 funding split. The I-95—PA Turnpike Interchange Project was the last project to be funded from the original Interstate trust fund.
I think you're wrong on this. Original interstate funding hasn't been around for years (at least, not for the last fifteen years or so I've worked for a DOT in capital program management). I suppose PA may have saved some up since 1978 (and, come to think of it, I wonder about the Turnpike's share and how that all worked out in terms of the interchange funding), but that old Interstate funding was pretty much gone.
There has been newer interstate funding that was and is still 90-10. This included the now defunct Interstate Maintenance funding from the pre MAP-21 days (a large program) and now the National Highway Performance Program funding, which allows for 90-10 on Interstates, I believe also on approved new additions to the system (if I'm wrong, then it's still 80-20, anyway). NHP is one of the largest FHWA programs that funds state's capital programs.
To be clear, it's not additional NHPP funding and is carved out of a state's apportionment when used, but it would still be able to be used at that higher percentage, unless I'm remembering the eligibility rules incorrectly (and it is almost 1:30 a.m. my time...).
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 25, 2020, 09:58:04 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 25, 2020, 08:37:18 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 12:30:32 PM
Quote from: Rothman on October 23, 2020, 11:59:49 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 23, 2020, 10:53:30 AM
What a dimwitted, short sighted, stupid idea that is!
Because Flint is going to have a resurgence? I don't see one of the largest corporations in the world establishing themselves in Flint again and employ as many people as GM did.
Exactly. So leave it alone. There is absolutely no sense in throwing millions of dollars away on a stupid project that is going to do nothing but create more traffic tie ups along I-75, I-69 and throughout town. Totally backwards thinking. Ever travel I-75 on weekends? Backups are horrible and there are few viable options. A few years ago they were talking about extending I-475 to the south to US-23. There's already a fair amount of traffic on I-475. It needs to stay free flowing.
Let's be honest here we are talking about Flint city officials, they always are backwards thinking things. I don't even know why a city official would even suggest such a thing, doesn't Flint have bigger problems to worry about than this? I think so. It's a highway maintained by MDOT not the city so they can take this proposal and shove it up their sorry asses. I'm not talking that way to you of course but Flint city officials rather because they never have a good plan to improve anything in the city of Flint.
I agree, but it's still no excuse for such stupidity.
I know it. Flint city officials are as dumb as it gets. There has been a spike in crime in Flint and shootings at gas stations at night time so a city official proposes closing all the gas stations down at 9pm in order to stop it.
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 25, 2020, 12:35:32 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 25, 2020, 06:25:20 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on October 24, 2020, 11:28:57 PM
Quote from: GaryV on October 24, 2020, 09:36:38 AM
Quote from: I-55 on October 24, 2020, 03:04:18 AM
Or put I-475 on US-23 to Toledo where it connects with I-475 there and the remainder of I-475 OH becomes I-875. Boom, Detroit Bypass
Unlike other states, Michigan has not seen the need to slap an Interstate number on every freeway.
That's putting it mildly. MDOT seems to absolutely hate Interstates, or at least interstate numbers!
I don't think they hate interstates I think that they have announced that they are done building interstates though. So even I-73 which was the last proposed interstate in Michigan will never even enter the state probably not even Ohio either.
They refused to put an interstate number on M-6 and removed signage on I-296 saying it was too confusing having X-96's. It's insulting. They might just as well say people in West Michigan are stupid.
How'd it work out in the San Francisco Bay Area when they decided they wanted a bunch of 3D Interstates? Nobody in Michigan in all the years I lived there was pining for State Trunklines to become Interstates. What was confusing was when you had garage line I-696 Business.
It's not that they refused to put an Interstate on M-6 it's that they didn't get it approved to be an Interstate. It's the sign that MDOT doesn't bother worrying about if a freeway is an Interstate or not.
Just because a highway is a freeway doesn't mean that it needs to be an Interstate and in Michigan there are several freeway alignments that are not Interstate's, such as US-10, US-127, US-131, M-6, M-39, M-10, M-8, parts of M-5, M-14 and so on. Michigan has 13 Interstate highways totaling 1,239 miles, in comparison North Carolina has 19 Interstate highways totaling 1,296 miles (just 57 more miles than Michigan with 6 more Interstate's).
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 27, 2020, 08:33:15 AM
It's not that they refused to put an Interstate on M-6 it's that they didn't get it approved to be an Interstate. It's the sign that MDOT doesn't bother worrying about if a freeway is an Interstate or not.
Just because a highway is a freeway doesn't mean that it needs to be an Interstate and in Michigan there are several freeway alignments that are not Interstate's, such as US-10, US-127, US-131, M-6, M-39, M-10, M-8, parts of M-5, M-14 and so on. Michigan has 13 Interstate highways totaling 1,239 miles, in comparison North Carolina has 19 Interstate highways totaling 1,296 miles (just 57 more miles than Michigan with 6 more Interstate's).
And I'd argue that's a good thing. Not everything should be an Interstate Highway, even if it technically meets the standards for one. The situation I described in the Bay Area led to things like CA 238 because signed as an Interstate. Another example of it was done right was Metro Phoenix with Loop 101, Loop 202, Loop 303, AZ 51, AZ 143, US 60, and AZ 24.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on October 27, 2020, 09:41:45 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on October 27, 2020, 08:33:15 AM
It's not that they refused to put an Interstate on M-6 it's that they didn't get it approved to be an Interstate. It's the sign that MDOT doesn't bother worrying about if a freeway is an Interstate or not.
Just because a highway is a freeway doesn't mean that it needs to be an Interstate and in Michigan there are several freeway alignments that are not Interstate's, such as US-10, US-127, US-131, M-6, M-39, M-10, M-8, parts of M-5, M-14 and so on. Michigan has 13 Interstate highways totaling 1,239 miles, in comparison North Carolina has 19 Interstate highways totaling 1,296 miles (just 57 more miles than Michigan with 6 more Interstate's).
And I'd argue that's a good thing. Not everything should be an Interstate Highway, even if it technically meets the standards for one. The situation I described in the Bay Area led to things like CA 238 because signed as an Interstate. Another example of it was done right was Metro Phoenix with Loop 101, Loop 202, Loop 303, AZ 51, AZ 143, US 60, and AZ 24.
I feel that Michigan doesn't see the need to have more Interstate's and I think MDOT has said they are done building Interstate's so you will likely never see another Interstate highway built in Michigan. They are having enough problems trying to maintain the one's they have now too.
If you think about it with Michigan the population centers are well served with freeways and we're familiar with their route number so to ease confusion it's nice that MDOT doesn't do that. I know the U.P. has no need for another Interstate, I-75 is overkill between St. Ignace and Sault Ste. Marie plus Copper Harbor is the farthest place from an Interstate highway in the lower 48. What a beautiful town that is btw.
There are several patterns with freeways/tollways around the nation. Some are like Illinois & North Carolina. Almost any 4 lane limited access road is an Interstate in these states. Then there are states like Michigan, Arizona, (and somewhat) Kentucky. These states build 4 lane limited access, then assign what number is appropriate to the highway (or none in case of KY). The road need not be interstate standard, but interstate quality.
Some states like Wisconsin, Ohio & Texas will build a 4 lane to different standards depending on population, location, vpd and other factors. Sometimes for the same road. U.S. 59 would be an Interstate from the beginning in Illinois, but Texas its 4 lane undivided, divided, expressway, freeway, it didn't matter. Not until that I-69 money came. The same for Kentucky upgrading its parkways to Interstates; since the Feds are incentivizing the upgrade why not.
The next group are the toll states. Florida and Oklahoma went the toll road route. South Florida has I-95, a few spurs of parent route, the beginning of I-75 and nothing but toll roads for the rest. I think I like it the way it is. Not every part of the country needs to be the same. Build the facility that's needed for its own community.
Back to the topic at hand. I-475 won't move for years simply because Michigan does not have the money to do this now. It also serves as an alternate to I-75 if that is backed up. I can see MDOT working with Flint to modify the freeway to better server the community.
Interstate 475 should remain in existence, although they should definitely consider capping portions of it, such as the portions both north and south of Interstate 69.
Don't worry it'll never get done. Flint is one city where nothing ever gets done or it takes a very long time to get done it's a very outdated city and what I mean is everything is old there so why expect anything to get done to I-475? MDOT will probably pass on it or take a long time to act on it themselves.
I too think it's a crazy idea, and hope that MDOT never goes for it. I don't know about I-475, but it deserves to exist, unlike I-375 further down the road in Detroit.
I can see a case for it being eliminated between Fifth St and Broadway Blvd, running it as a boulevard along Chavez Drive. It's not a great case though, and the benefit of it also being able to alleviate traffic from the main I-75 line is an added reason to keep the highway. I think capping I-475 on one or more of the blocks over the freeway would be a better solution and cheaper than a complete redesign.