I was in Shreveport for 3 weeks for work. the onramp to get onto I-20 from Traffic Street has so many problems.
*ONE LANE for traffic in both directions.
*You need to cross over oncoming traffic to get to the ramp.
*No traffic signals in the across intersection.
I was also surprised how bad the roads are in Shreveport. I'm so glad I had a rental and not my own vehicle.
https://goo.gl/maps/TZdybc9tG5nxQYvN6
(https://i.ibb.co/C2GNgxN/image.png) (https://ibb.co/3zZG2tG)
(https://i.ibb.co/KLMybCq/image.png) (https://ibb.co/JyfkmX7)
(https://i.ibb.co/pwjR3Bt/image.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
Quote from: Dustin DeWinn on October 26, 2020, 05:31:59 PM
*ONE LANE for traffic in both directions.
*You need to cross over oncoming traffic to get to the ramp.
*No traffic signals in the across intersection.
This type of situation is pretty common in Texas in areas where the development along the freeway frontage roads–and the number of over/underpasses to facilitate U-turns–isn't great enough to warrant converting the frontage roads to one-way. And therefore, you have two-way frontage roads on both sides of the freeway with "wrong way" traffic closest to the freeway. And you wind up with situations like this (https://goo.gl/maps/RpTocSTfTCgSnJT59). Oncoming "wrong way" frontage traffic is directed to yield to on-ramp traffic, and though this may have a high degree of compliance from Texans who are familiar with the setup, it's counterintuitive to motorists from anywhere else.
I am confused by this. The problem is there is no yellow center stripe.
The NB Riverside / Traffic to EB i-20 is an easy right. The turn lane is a little short, but it is there. Like most; if not all Y-pattern ramps in Louisiana the vehicle turning RIGHT yields to the traffic turning left (and usually crossing oncoming traffic.)
There is a protected left turn lane from SB Traffic to EB I-20. The traffic making this turn would yield before turning left then be able to not have to yield when they clear the roadway.
The yield pattern on Texas exits is not relevant to this intersection. Yes, I agree that until you learn Texas exits, that they seem odd. Once you get used to them, they make lots of sense. IE Don't stop on the freeway. Let the slower traffic on the service roads slow down / stop.
I will add one other thing. The reason there is no traffic signal is that the traffic count from Traffic Street to the interstate EB is really low. Perhaps there should be a traffic light there, but there never has seemed to be the need for one.
History might add something to this. Riverside and traffic didn't use to intersect. Before the casinos. it looked far differently. Riverside ran to Hamilton Rd (Diamond Jacks) and ended at some houses. The stub of Traffic ST. ONLY went to the EB freeway ramp. I seem to think that the exit from I-20 WB and the entry to I-20EB here were done after the initial construction.
I will give you. Roads in Shreveport particularly (This is in Bossier City) are less than perfect. As a whole, I think Baton Rouge may be worse.
This intersection is fairly common all over Louisiana where parallel roads are involved in the intersection. While there aren't that many two-way service roads left in Texas, this is how they were done there as well.
If that were in Oklahoma City, that wouldn't even rank in the top 10 worst onramps in town. It's a near-spitting image of S. 19th St at I-35 SB (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3191811,-97.4913578,3a,54.3y,154.45h,87.82t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sSHX24ip9zYT30p52H21W8A!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DSHX24ip9zYT30p52H21W8A%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D77.45679%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656) in Moore, but with actual merging room.
There's a more dangerous on-ramp 100 miles east in Monroe:
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.5001802,-92.1087776,3a,75y,72.86h,71.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sct_nzPWWhwYco4nxbEzTgA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: bwana39 on October 26, 2020, 06:37:34 PM
I am confused by this. The problem is there is no yellow center stripe.
Or rather, the yellow center stripe has worn away. It used to be there.
I've seen worse than that in Georgia. Here's a ramp similar to the OP on Langford Parkway (GA 166) southwest of Atlanta (https://goo.gl/maps/DocSGCi65hnHGPGB8).
Quote from: US 89 on October 26, 2020, 09:02:43 PM
I've seen worse than that in Georgia. Here's a ramp similar to the OP on Langford Parkway (GA 166) southwest of Atlanta (https://goo.gl/maps/DocSGCi65hnHGPGB8).
Wow, okay, you win.
See I heard Traffic Street on ramp and thought this was where the thread was heading. One of my least favorite on ramps growing up in Shreveport.
https://goo.gl/maps/gvL8g4SkZjufH5iM7
iPhone
Quote from: bassoon1986 on October 26, 2020, 11:59:42 PM
See I heard Traffic Street on ramp and thought this was where the thread was heading. One of my least favorite on ramps growing up in Shreveport.
https://goo.gl/maps/gvL8g4SkZjufH5iM7
iPhone
Work put me in the Courtyard right outside the Horseshoe so I'm very familiar with that road. Also, never got used to the freight trains as my window was closest to the tracks. 3 weeks of basically waking up every hour.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 26, 2020, 06:44:03 PM
If that were in Oklahoma City, that wouldn't even rank in the top 10 worst onramps in town. It's a near-spitting image of S. 19th St at I-35 SB (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3191811,-97.4913578,3a,54.3y,154.45h,87.82t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sSHX24ip9zYT30p52H21W8A!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DSHX24ip9zYT30p52H21W8A%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D77.45679%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656) in Moore, but with actual merging room.
Really? Did you forget this one on I-240 near Crissroads Blvd (https://goo.gl/maps/uxdA18iKwWyDwQRv6)? It is the same setup, but about 100 ft before you join the interstate!
There was that one notorious ramp to get on the Pulaski Skyway. I believe it may even have had a stop sign at the end of it.
Quote from: Dustin DeWinn on October 26, 2020, 09:06:13 PM
Quote from: US 89 on October 26, 2020, 09:02:43 PM
I've seen worse than that in Georgia. Here's a ramp similar to the OP on Langford Parkway (GA 166) southwest of Atlanta (https://goo.gl/maps/DocSGCi65hnHGPGB8).
Wow, okay, you win.
That's cute. (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4468919,-97.4259154,3a,48.4y,288.66h,85.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s96NR5r78-3D_8P8SxjxqAA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 27, 2020, 03:30:32 AM
Quote from: Dustin DeWinn on October 26, 2020, 09:06:13 PM
Quote from: US 89 on October 26, 2020, 09:02:43 PM
I've seen worse than that in Georgia. Here's a ramp similar to the OP on Langford Parkway (GA 166) southwest of Atlanta (https://goo.gl/maps/DocSGCi65hnHGPGB8).
Wow, okay, you win.
That's cute. (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4468919,-97.4259154,3a,48.4y,288.66h,85.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s96NR5r78-3D_8P8SxjxqAA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
That's just shameful. No turn lane, and hardly any room for acceleration onto a highway with high-volume traffic.
Awwwwww (https://goo.gl/maps/pDTUdoG2qGnFB3K16)
Quote from: seicer on October 27, 2020, 10:40:20 AM
Awwwwww (https://goo.gl/maps/pDTUdoG2qGnFB3K16)
that shouldn't be allowed. but it is pennsylvania, i think they have the worst designed roads i've ever driven on.
Quote from: Dustin DeWinn on October 27, 2020, 12:23:58 AM
Quote from: bassoon1986 on October 26, 2020, 11:59:42 PM
See I heard Traffic Street on ramp and thought this was where the thread was heading. One of my least favorite on ramps growing up in Shreveport.
https://goo.gl/maps/gvL8g4SkZjufH5iM7
iPhone
Work put me in the Courtyard right outside the Horseshoe so I'm very familiar with that road. Also, never got used to the freight trains as my window was closest to the tracks. 3 weeks of basically waking up every hour.
It sounds almost like when I was staying in Gilman, Illinois at the Super 8. There was a train every 15-20 minutes for about two hours in the early morning. The crossing just west of there on US-24.
Here's (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4329302,-79.8716499,3a,89.4y,217.46h,94.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sI3V5RXUbofinQ7E8He3l8w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192/) the worst onramp I've ever seen. View from above (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4329045,-79.8716743,138m/data=!3m1!1e3/).
I think a lot of Pennsylvania stop sign controlled ramps would qualify. The first example provided by the OP doesn't strike me as particularly bad.
From an outsider's perspective, the slip ramps from frontage road to freeway are jarring. If I was in oncoming traffic, I wouldn't even consider yielding to left-turning traffic, and can easily imagine myself missing the yield sign and blowing through at speed.
I'd actually prefer a stop sign in that situation, because the sign itself is more visible and would (hopefully) be accompanied by a stop line. There would also preferably be a secondary sign that read "LEFT TURNING TRAFFIC DOES NOT STOP" or something along those lines.
Quote from: seicer on October 27, 2020, 10:40:20 AM
Awwwwww (https://goo.gl/maps/pDTUdoG2qGnFB3K16)
Great example, but here (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1547208,-79.7769595,3a,75y,53.07h,80.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNVUYrYEuf8pnMUx_rkhd4Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is the more PA-esque vantage point. Note also the at least three additional trucks approaching from behind.
Quote from: webny99 on October 27, 2020, 01:08:07 PM
Quote from: seicer on October 27, 2020, 10:40:20 AM
Awwwwww (https://goo.gl/maps/pDTUdoG2qGnFB3K16)
Great example, but here (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1547208,-79.7769595,3a,75y,53.07h,80.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNVUYrYEuf8pnMUx_rkhd4Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) is the more PA-esque vantage point. Note also the at least three additional trucks approaching from behind.
Not sure what the timetable is, but that cloverleaf is planned to become a DDI.
Hold up. Everyone is just posting left turns. What the hell is the big deal? Every state has examples of this. I've been staring at the OP for ever now, and I don't know what I'm looking at beyond just a regular left turn. Not every left turn is a signal; some involve porkchop islands, some involve yielding, some involve more than one lane, etc. This is nothing unusual going on here.
Some of these have slightly more obtuse angles, but they're still just a left turn.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 27, 2020, 03:49:09 PM
Hold up. Everyone is just posting left turns. What the hell is the big deal? Every state has examples of this. I've been staring at the OP for ever now, and I don't know what I'm looking at beyond just a regular left turn. Not every left turn is a signal; some involve porkchop islands, some involve yielding, some involve more than one lane, etc. This is nothing unusual going on here.
Some of these have slightly more obtuse angles, but they're still just a left turn.
Well it's a left turn onto a major road, and both directions have to negotiate the same lane. 2 opposing onramps merge into one. It's not something I'm used to seeing. It's not merely a left turn at a regular intersection.
Quote from: Dustin DeWinn on October 27, 2020, 04:37:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 27, 2020, 03:49:09 PM
Hold up. Everyone is just posting left turns. What the hell is the big deal? Every state has examples of this. I've been staring at the OP for ever now, and I don't know what I'm looking at beyond just a regular left turn. Not every left turn is a signal; some involve porkchop islands, some involve yielding, some involve more than one lane, etc. This is nothing unusual going on here.
Some of these have slightly more obtuse angles, but they're still just a left turn.
Well it's a left turn onto a major road, and both directions have to negotiate the same lane. 2 opposing onramps merge into one. It's not something I'm used to seeing. It's not merely a left turn at a regular intersection.
Two opposing on-ramps? I'm guessing you're not familiar with slip lanes. Note in the image that the slip lane has a yield sign. Traffic turning left from Traffic St has to yield to oncoming traffic, as is always required, but has priority over the slip lane, which are almost always universally yield situations, as they are not part of the intersection (they are a bypass of the intersection).
Here are two images: your intersection, and one near me, and I've marked them using MS Paint to show how they operate exactly the same: traffic turning left yields to oncoming traffic, but the slip lane must yield to
all traffic, regardless of where it originates. This is standard operation for all slip lanes across the country, with some exception in places like Illinois, where they are often signalized.
(https://i.imgur.com/SJNM8aE.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/U55dBsS.png)
This left turn acts no different than any other left turn that turns onto a road where a slip lane also deposits traffic in that direction. This regular four-way intersection in Langley, BC has three slip lanes: none are 'add lanes', and must yield to traffic from the left no matter what. The zebra crossings indicate that the slip lane is not controlled by the signal (which, in BC, use continental markings). Traffic in the slip lane is 'bypassing' the main intersection, and has the lowest amount of priority possible. This, again, is indicated by yield signs (which, again, are present in your example):
(https://i.imgur.com/UTegJAc.png)
In the image below, the intersection is denoted by aqua markings. The slip lane is not part of the intersection, and has a yield sign controlling traffic:
(https://i.imgur.com/tiVwYxe.png)
Similar drawing for the Traffic St/I-20 ramp:
Quote from: jakeroot on October 27, 2020, 05:33:12 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/tiVwYxe.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/ipphsJS.png)
Jakeroot,
Good job!
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.986689,-81.9611949,3a,90y,309.65h,65.65t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D17.857975%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
Does this count as an example of what we've been talking about with bad on-ramps? This one is literally right up against 585. As soon as you turn you're on the freeway.
Quote from: bwana39 on October 27, 2020, 05:42:41 PM
Jakeroot,
Good job!
Thanks. We seem to be the only ones here who understand why this intersection is completely normal.
Quote from: index on October 27, 2020, 05:58:29 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.986689,-81.9611949,3a,90y,309.65h,65.65t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D17.857975%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
Does this count as an example of what we've been talking about with bad on-ramps? This one is literally right up against 585.
Well, since this thread has decided that 'bad on-ramp' means 'anything with a slip lane and without a signal', I guess so.
In reality? That's a regular left turn. It's not bad or even unusual.
For everyone else: please think critically about what you are posting. All of you are sharing regular left turns that are not at all remarkable or unique. The angle of an intersection does not make it unusual. Not everything is a right angle.
Here's one: https://google.com/maps/@32.6320492,-96.4527089,3a,42.1y,303.38h,85.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVlY9KW1ULaMVXg8xRSjzOA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Eastbound frontage road traffic yields to westbound traffic entering the ramp. This is normal in rural areas of Texas but this intersection has enough traffic to be dangerous.
Really not understanding some of the issues above.
I'll nominate this, although there's probably a good dozen I could easily use.
I-295 at Exit 15 in NJ: https://goo.gl/maps/wigmYxk1YCKemF4W9
I-295 is 65 mph. Tomlin Station Road is 50 mph.
No turn lanes on Tomlin Station Road. Meaningless porkchops on the ramp. Stop sign forever missing. Sight distances less than respectable. https://goo.gl/maps/uQkD8ckEC6yMkDfB9
15 mph hard right turn off the 65 mph roadway; only advisory sign located right at the gore. https://goo.gl/maps/XApdCkVmDKA8qPN6A
No median separation on the ramp. https://goo.gl/maps/niRowXCZnBqugQBv9
And this is the *improved* version of the interchange!
Exit 16B has more of the same:
Overview of the interchange, including a driveway on the ramp: https://goo.gl/maps/tT6prBn44pcBBN149
One of the ramps, with even worse porkchops: https://goo.gl/maps/oByFcW5PTjFQJJTw7
Again, improved from about 15 years ago!
Quote from: jakeroot on October 27, 2020, 05:20:59 PM
Here are two images: your intersection, and one near me, and I've marked them using MS Paint to show how they operate exactly the same: traffic turning left yields to oncoming traffic, but the slip lane must yield to all traffic, regardless of where it originates. This is standard operation for all slip lanes across the country, with some exception in places like Illinois, where they are often signalized.
(https://i.imgur.com/SJNM8aE.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/U55dBsS.png)
That's not how the Georgia example I posted above works. Traffic turning left into the freeway on-ramp there has the right of way over oncoming traffic, which is given a stop sign.
Quote from: US 89 on October 28, 2020, 08:49:35 AM
That's not how the Georgia example I posted above works. Traffic turning left into the freeway on-ramp there has the right of way over oncoming traffic, which is given a stop sign.
It's not how a number of the posted examples work. I was responding specifically to the OP and his Shreveport on-ramp, which is nothing more than a regular left turn with a right-turn bypass lane. There is zero evidence to support his assertion that it is somehow 'dangerous'.
As to yours and other examples posted which largely involve frontage roads: again, not unusual, bad, or even dangerous. Frontage roads are necessarily awkward when they are two-way. Sometimes the left turn has priority, sometimes it doesn't.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 28, 2020, 02:44:20 PM
Frontage roads are necessarily awkward when they are two-way. Sometimes the left turn has priority, sometimes it doesn't.
... but to someone from an area with very few frontage roads, basically no two way frontage roads, and certainly no two-way frontage roads where the left turns get priority (in other words, the entire Northeast and Midwest), that
seems dangerous because it's so different and so counter-intuitive, even if it's perfectly safe in practice in places where it's the norm.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 27, 2020, 06:03:15 PM
Quote from: index on October 27, 2020, 05:58:29 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.986689,-81.9611949,3a,90y,309.65h,65.65t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D17.857975%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
Does this count as an example of what we've been talking about with bad on-ramps? This one is literally right up against 585.
Well, since this thread has decided that 'bad on-ramp' means 'anything with a slip lane and without a signal', I guess so.
In reality? That's a regular left turn. It's not bad or even unusual.
For everyone else: please think critically about what you are posting. All of you are sharing regular left turns that are not at all remarkable or unique. The angle of an intersection does not make it unusual. Not everything is a right angle.
Here's a better vantage point (https://goo.gl/maps/RG8KuyFUfqvn5ph6A); look at the entering vehicle. It's also basically a U-turn onto the highway.
But yeah, the OP is functionally no different than
this one (https://goo.gl/maps/h3SMWvKALLsatfM2A). Heck, my example doesn't even have a Yield sign. Pretty unremarkable.
Quote from: webny99 on October 28, 2020, 03:01:25 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 28, 2020, 02:44:20 PM
Frontage roads are necessarily awkward when they are two-way. Sometimes the left turn has priority, sometimes it doesn't.
... but to someone from an area with very few frontage roads, basically no two way frontage roads, and certainly no two-way frontage roads where the left turns get priority (in other words, the entire Northeast and Midwest), that seems dangerous because it's so different and so counter-intuitive, even if it's perfectly safe in practice in places where it's the norm.
I need you to be a little clearer what you find "dangerous". Left turns with priority over oncoming traffic is an exceptionally common feature along frontage roads (simply because you or I don't see it every day does not make it dangerous), and especially along one-way systems in towns and city centers (
example here in rural WA (https://goo.gl/maps/xVmLMPHR1A5xPXmv7)). The angle of these turns is not unusual (many roads meet at weird angles), and the existence of a right turn bypass lane (ostensibly the main issue with the OP) is, again, not unusual, and certainly not dangerous.
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2020, 03:08:38 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 27, 2020, 06:03:15 PM
Quote from: index on October 27, 2020, 05:58:29 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.986689,-81.9611949,3a,90y,309.65h,65.65t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DWYwu4RKjFWy-NLB3zkMDiw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D17.857975%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
Does this count as an example of what we've been talking about with bad on-ramps? This one is literally right up against 585.
Well, since this thread has decided that 'bad on-ramp' means 'anything with a slip lane and without a signal', I guess so.
In reality? That's a regular left turn. It's not bad or even unusual.
For everyone else: please think critically about what you are posting. All of you are sharing regular left turns that are not at all remarkable or unique. The angle of an intersection does not make it unusual. Not everything is a right angle.
Here's a better vantage point (https://goo.gl/maps/RG8KuyFUfqvn5ph6A); look at the entering vehicle. It's also basically a U-turn onto the highway.
But yeah, the OP is functionally no different than this one (https://goo.gl/maps/h3SMWvKALLsatfM2A). Heck, my example doesn't even have a Yield sign. Pretty unremarkable.
I think the key words in your post are "functionally no different". People here are being weirded out by these things because of their angle. That doesn't make them dangerous.
That on-ramp in Spartanburg is literally just an on-ramp from a side road. I didn't realize we lived in this SimCity world where everything has to meet at right angles to not be considered dangerous.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 28, 2020, 03:14:21 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 28, 2020, 03:01:25 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 28, 2020, 02:44:20 PM
Frontage roads are necessarily awkward when they are two-way. Sometimes the left turn has priority, sometimes it doesn't.
... but to someone from an area with very few frontage roads, basically no two way frontage roads, and certainly no two-way frontage roads where the left turns get priority (in other words, the entire Northeast and Midwest), that seems dangerous because it's so different and so counter-intuitive, even if it's perfectly safe in practice in places where it's the norm.
I need you to be a little clearer what you find "dangerous". ...
If something is unexpected to a driver, then it's more likely to create a dangerous situation. It would be unwise to dump a bunch of drivers from the Northeast into a situation, like the OP and other examples, where left-turning traffic has the right of way: it would be a recipe for mass confusion, road rage, and accidents. That doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just not what we're used to. That doesn't mean it's dangerous to the people who use it on their commute, they're just used to how it works.
Your rural WA example is a little different because it's clear that the through route makes a 90 degree turn, and the dashed lines through the intersection help reinforce the visual cue that no stop is necessary. Great signage (https://www.google.com/maps/@48.1840428,-117.0432606,3a,75y,267.92h,86.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJnYhhqANN00AYNailNqTrA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), too!
FWIW,
here's my favorite (https://goo.gl/maps/Z8EpeKDzUmuWGLCg8).
Quote from: webny99 on October 28, 2020, 03:31:17 PM
If something is unexpected to a driver, then it's more likely to create a dangerous situation. It would be unwise to dump a bunch of drivers from the Northeast into a situation, like the OP and other examples, where left-turning traffic has the right of way: it would be a recipe for mass confusion, road rage, and accidents. That doesn't mean it's wrong, it's just not what we're used to. That doesn't mean it's dangerous to the people who use it on their commute, they're just used to how it works.
If something is unexpected to a driver, then it's
potentially likely to create a dangerous situation. Actual danger, however, is measured in crashes. If there are no actual crashes, then there is no actual danger.
Would you be confused by
this on-ramp here in Wichita (https://goo.gl/maps/5rDN3BztFT3Aa6Kw7), which I use all the time? Right-turning traffic yields to left-turning traffic.
Or how about
this on-ramp over there in Rochester (https://goo.gl/maps/D1Xw7QBavBFsK3Wb6)? Right-turning traffic yields to left-turning traffic.
Or
this other on-ramp in Rochester (https://goo.gl/maps/Dhsub2R8sPqmKfgv9)? Right-turning traffic yields to left-turning traffic.
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2020, 03:45:34 PM
Would you be confused by this on-ramp here in Wichita (https://goo.gl/maps/5rDN3BztFT3Aa6Kw7), which I use all the time? Right-turning traffic yields to left-turning traffic.
Or how about this on-ramp over there in Rochester (https://goo.gl/maps/D1Xw7QBavBFsK3Wb6)? Right-turning traffic yields to left-turning traffic.
Or this other on-ramp in Rochester (https://goo.gl/maps/Dhsub2R8sPqmKfgv9)? Right-turning traffic yields to left-turning traffic.
Whoa! My bad for not being more clear. I have no issue with right-turning traffic yielding to left-turning traffic. That happens all the time with slip ramps.
My issue is with traffic proceeding
straight having to yield, or to a lesser extent, stop, for left-turning traffic, as seen here (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.6325928,-96.4534714,3a,43.1y,133.25h,91.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHPppulliZUTXzEEbvmfYGA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), for example (intersection was linked to upthread by
debragga).
Quote from: webny99 on October 28, 2020, 03:58:06 PM
My issue is with traffic proceeding straight having to yield, or to a lesser extent, stop, for left-turning traffic, as seen here (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.6325928,-96.4534714,3a,43.1y,133.25h,91.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHPppulliZUTXzEEbvmfYGA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), for example (intersection was linked to upthread by debragga).
Then your assertion must be that every frontage road in the entire state of Texas is "a recipe for mass confusion, road rage, and accidents". Considering how many out-of-state drivers use Texas highways every day, I doubt that's true.
It is a
state law that traffic continuing on any frontage road must yield to all exiting and entering traffic.
Quote from: Texas Statutes, Transportation Code
Title 7. Vehicles and Traffic
Subtitle C. Rules of the Road
Chapter 545. Operation and Movement of Vehicles
Subchapter D. Right-of-way
§ 545.154. Vehicle Entering or Leaving Limited-access or Controlled-access Highway
An operator on an access or feeder road of a limited-access or controlled-access highway shall yield the right-of-way to a vehicle entering or about to enter the access or feeder road from the highway or leaving or about to leave the access or feeder road to enter the highway.
Quote from: webny99 on October 28, 2020, 03:31:17 PM
If something is unexpected to a driver, then it's more likely to create a dangerous situation
Yeah, no kidding. That doesn't make these situations actually dangerous. The frontage road ramps may be unfamiliar to you, and those around you, but there is nothing inherently dangerous about their designs. Straight-through traffic having to stop for a major movement is not unusual. I linked to one example in WA; here's
another in LA (https://goo.gl/maps/9mMJDTN1E3rjfBbc6) that was recently signalized.
Sometimes, when left turning traffic is busy, the intersection is signalized and a protected/permissive signal is installed. When this isn't practical (frontage roads especially), often times the through traffic has reduced priority and must give way to oncoming left turns. I'm not going to sit here and tell you how common this is, because it isn't
that common, but just because it isn't common doesn't mean it's dangerous.
Your line of logic could be used to assert that DDIs are dangerous anywhere they are not common. After all, how could an unfamiliar and uncommon interchange design that requires you to drive
on the left be anything but a sea of collisions?!?! In reality, of course, drivers are able to interpret each intersection based on signs and markings. Simply because the overall layout isn't common doesn't make it dangerous.
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2020, 04:25:35 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 28, 2020, 03:58:06 PM
My issue is with traffic proceeding straight having to yield, or to a lesser extent, stop, for left-turning traffic, as seen here (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.6325928,-96.4534714,3a,43.1y,133.25h,91.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHPppulliZUTXzEEbvmfYGA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), for example (intersection was linked to upthread by debragga).
Then your assertion must be that every frontage road in the entire state of Texas is "a recipe for mass confusion, road rage, and accidents". Considering how many out-of-state drivers use Texas highways every day, I doubt that's true.
In a hypothetical situation in which
all, or at least a majority, of the drivers using the intersection were from the Northeast, it absolutely would be.
Most out-of-state drivers in Texas are probably from neighboring states in the South and West where similar setups exist, and those that aren't are such a minority that they should be able to figure it out from watching everyone else.
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2020, 04:25:35 PM
It is a state law that traffic continuing on any frontage road must yield to all exiting and entering traffic.
[quote snipped]
Mind blown. To me that seems completely backwards, and I guarantee you everyone from much of the rest of the country would say the same thing.
That Texas state law is why, for example, these Yield signs (https://goo.gl/maps/qbYgZ6Funp8jgeVw7) make total sense. Traffic facing them is already bound by state law to yield to exiting traffic. Legally, in fact, those signs are unnecessary: there's no legal difference between that location and this one nearby without signs (https://goo.gl/maps/xV6MuiUNoBvoP1kQ8).
Quote from: jakeroot on October 28, 2020, 04:44:48 PM
Your line of logic could be used to assert that DDIs are dangerous anywhere they are not common. After all, how could an unfamiliar and uncommon interchange design that requires you to drive on the left be anything but a sea of collisions?!?! In reality, of course, drivers are able to interpret each intersection based on signs and markings. Simply because the overall layout isn't common doesn't make it dangerous.
I don't think that's my line of logic at all.
We have plenty of slip ramps just like the ones in Texas. Everything about the situation, the intersection, the pavement markings, is identical, the only difference is who yields to whom. That's a subtlety you may not pick up on right away - or at all! There's nothing subtle at all about a DDI, on the other hand. Everything about it screams "I'm weird! Pay attention!"
Quote from: webny99 on October 28, 2020, 04:46:49 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2020, 04:25:35 PM
It is a state law that traffic continuing on any frontage road must yield to all exiting and entering traffic.
[quote snipped]
Mind blown. To me that seems completely backwards, and I guarantee you everyone from much of the rest of the country would say the same thing.
And see, to me it makes perfect sense, for two reasons:
1. Much better to require someone to yield who's going 40 mph on a local road than someone who's going 70 mph on a freeway.
2. If traffic backs up, much better for the tailback to be on local roads than a freeway mainline.
I never go through this intersection without wishing for a traffic light or some sort of Texas-like yield for left turning onto the on-ramp of the Fulbright Expressway as it's always stacked up with left-turning traffic here. This intersection also has the distinction of dumping onto it right where the off-ramp for northbound I-49 is also having to weave in and slow down as you're trying to speed up and jump out of the lane if you're actually intending to go on southbound I-49, which is almost always the case for me.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1131863,-94.1605969,3a,75y,250.04h,95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDFW7sx4XbqgJoMj7g0gPbQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1131863,-94.1605969,3a,75y,250.04h,95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDFW7sx4XbqgJoMj7g0gPbQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Quote from: webny99 on October 28, 2020, 03:01:25 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 28, 2020, 02:44:20 PM
Frontage roads are necessarily awkward when they are two-way. Sometimes the left turn has priority, sometimes it doesn't.
... but to someone from an area with very few frontage roads, basically no two way frontage roads, and certainly no two-way frontage roads where the left turns get priority (in other words, the entire Northeast and Midwest), that seems dangerous because it's so different and so counter-intuitive, even if it's perfectly safe in practice in places where it's the norm.
I think the Northeast is vastly different in so many ways compared to the rest of the country. In most areas of the country, it seems like protected and/or permissive left arrows are very standard. I almost feel like these people would get so irritated in the northeast where there are a ton of traffic lights without arrows. Or, just how fast and crowded our highways really are in the northeast. A 70 mph road in the south is only 5 mph faster than a 65 mph road in the north, but guaranteed the amount of traffic on that 65 mph roadway is considerably more than the 70 mph zones down south. It drives me crazy in North Carolina where there are significant areas of 65 mph highway on I-95 that are quite empty, but it must meet some sort of threshold down there that causes that limit to be 65. Compare that to some areas of the Garden State Parkway where the limit is 65, the 85th percentile speed in free flowing traffic is over 80, and the average gap between vehicles is well under 1 second or 3 car lengths.
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2020, 04:48:45 PM
That Texas state law is why, for example, these Yield signs (https://goo.gl/maps/qbYgZ6Funp8jgeVw7) make total sense. Traffic facing them is already bound by state law to yield to exiting traffic. Legally, in fact, those signs are unnecessary: there's no legal difference between that location and this one nearby without signs (https://goo.gl/maps/xV6MuiUNoBvoP1kQ8).
Actually, I see a huge difference. In the first example, there's no merge lane. In the second example, not only is there a lane for those exiting the highway, there's a double white lane to prohibit traffic from exiting that lane for a bit, and then the lane becomes permanent to make the access road 3 lanes wide. By the time the 3rd lane allows for movement outside the lane, it's well beyond the area that would be considered an exit onto the feeder road.
Quote from: webny99 on October 28, 2020, 04:50:53 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 28, 2020, 04:44:48 PM
Your line of logic could be used to assert that DDIs are dangerous anywhere they are not common. After all, how could an unfamiliar and uncommon interchange design that requires you to drive on the left be anything but a sea of collisions?!?! In reality, of course, drivers are able to interpret each intersection based on signs and markings. Simply because the overall layout isn't common doesn't make it dangerous.
I don't think that's my line of logic at all.
We have plenty of slip ramps just like the ones in Texas. Everything about the situation, the intersection, the pavement markings, is identical, the only difference is who yields to whom. That's a subtlety you may not pick up on right away - or at all! There's nothing subtle at all about a DDI, on the other hand. Everything about it screams "I'm weird! Pay attention!"
But there are millions of intersections all across the country where "who yields to whom" is not immediately clear. States vary in how they sign and mark intersections.
This does not make them dangerous.
Your implication seems to be that left turns having priority is dangerous, simply because that's not how the standard on-ramp works. That is ridiculously unfair.
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2020, 05:00:53 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 28, 2020, 04:46:49 PM
Quote from: kphoger on October 28, 2020, 04:25:35 PM
It is a state law that traffic continuing on any frontage road must yield to all exiting and entering traffic.
[quote snipped]
Mind blown. To me that seems completely backwards, and I guarantee you everyone from much of the rest of the country would say the same thing.
And see, to me it makes perfect sense, for two reasons:
1. Much better to require someone to yield who's going 40 mph on a local road than someone who's going 70 mph on a freeway.
2. If traffic backs up, much better for the tailback to be on local roads than a freeway mainline.
That does make plenty of sense for an
exit to a frontage road. That wouldn't seem as weird, at least to me, because
both directions of the frontage road have to yield, and I know of many malls/plazas with very similar situations where the incoming traffic has right of way at a T-intersection...
... but thus far we've mostly been talking about and linking to examples of
entrances, where it makes less sense.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 28, 2020, 05:35:08 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 28, 2020, 03:01:25 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 28, 2020, 02:44:20 PM
Frontage roads are necessarily awkward when they are two-way. Sometimes the left turn has priority, sometimes it doesn't.
... but to someone from an area with very few frontage roads, basically no two way frontage roads, and certainly no two-way frontage roads where the left turns get priority (in other words, the entire Northeast and Midwest), that seems dangerous because it's so different and so counter-intuitive, even if it's perfectly safe in practice in places where it's the norm.
I think the Northeast is vastly different in so many ways compared to the rest of the country. In most areas of the country, it seems like protected and/or permissive left arrows are very standard. I almost feel like these people would get so irritated in the northeast where there are a ton of traffic lights without arrows. Or, just how fast and crowded our highways really are in the northeast. A 70 mph road in the south is only 5 mph faster than a 65 mph road in the north, but guaranteed the amount of traffic on that 65 mph roadway is considerably more than the 70 mph zones down south. ...
Yeah, totally agree with that, and I think a lot of it (the lack of turn lanes and arrows, not the freeway speeds :D) has to do with the character of the area and the time period in which the road networks were developed. Suburbs in the South and West that have been built from scratch in the past 20-30 years are basically guaranteed to have wide boulevards, full turning lanes, and arrows at the signals, while that's pretty rare around here apart from a reconstruction project. Imagine how claustrophobic Rockland County, NY, or parts of northern NJ would feel to someone from the Phoenix or Houston area.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 28, 2020, 08:17:06 PM
But there are millions of intersections all across the country where "who yields to whom" is not immediately clear. States vary in how they sign and mark intersections. This does not make them dangerous.
Millions? I honestly can't think of any (lest we drag up the "uncontrolled intersection" discussion we had a while back). But even so, as I said earlier, it doesn't make them actively dangerous
as long as everyone using the intersection knows how it works and pays attention. But
if this suddenly appeared tomorrow morning in this area, that would not be the case: likely several accidents would occur, followed by general outrage and confusion, before the drivers eventually adjust.
But let's not kid ourselves: Frontage roads are hardly a thing outside the South, so there aren't many locations where it would even be relevant. Ontario, Canada, has a few, such as along the QEW, but they usually go around the interchange independently instead of using slip ramps, as shown here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2072888,-79.5976328,16.38z/data=!5m1!1e1).
Quote from: jakeroot on October 28, 2020, 08:17:06 PM
Your implication seems to be that left turns having priority is dangerous, simply because that's not how the standard on-ramp works. That is ridiculously unfair.
Again, coming from an area where that's completely backwards and counter-intuitive, it does seem
potentially dangerous. It just seems like another thing to keep track of when learning the ropes: always yield when turning left, except when...
But if drivers there know how it works from the outset and are used to it, then there's no inherent danger, unless of course two non-locals happen to meet at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Quote from: webny99 on October 28, 2020, 09:53:54 PM
But let's not kid ourselves: Frontage roads are hardly a thing outside the South, so there aren't many locations where it would even be relevant. Ontario, Canada, has a few, such as along the QEW, but they usually go around the interchange independently instead of using slip ramps, as shown here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2072888,-79.5976328,16.38z/data=!5m1!1e1).
It's more accurate to say frontage roads are not commonly found in the Northeast than "hardly a thing outside the South." I've lived in Wisconsin, SE Virginia, St Louis, and now Southern California, and I've seen them in every place I've lived. Frontage roads, especially those found in what are often referred to as Texas-style freeways, are more common in the South. That doesn't make them hardly a thing elsewhere.
You thought all those examples were bad?
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0166292,-76.4867258,3a,46.9y,94.53h,81.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snQg4-23w2yq4XX7F5VXSCw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: skluth on October 29, 2020, 02:10:07 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 28, 2020, 09:53:54 PM
But let's not kid ourselves: Frontage roads are hardly a thing outside the South, so there aren't many locations where it would even be relevant. Ontario, Canada, has a few, such as along the QEW, but they usually go around the interchange independently instead of using slip ramps, as shown here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2072888,-79.5976328,16.38z/data=!5m1!1e1).
It's more accurate to say frontage roads are not commonly found in the Northeast than "hardly a thing outside the South." I've lived in Wisconsin, SE Virginia, St Louis, and now Southern California, and I've seen them in every place I've lived. Frontage roads, especially those found in what are often referred to as Texas-style freeways, are more common in the South. That doesn't make them hardly a thing elsewhere.
OK, so if we expand it to include the South and West, that would include all of those except Wisconsin, and I'm not sure that frontage roads are common there. The only one I could immediately find was along I-94 south of Milwaukee, and that's Ontario-style, where it goes around the interchange rather than using slip ramps.
I think two-way or one-way roads abutting freeways is actually quite common throughout the country, with fewer instances in some areas.
The one main difference between Texas, and elsewhere, is that two-way frontage roads usually aren't designed in a way that, from the air, appear to be one-way streets. I think this is the point that webny99 is making. Texas has very casual ramp design practices that I don't necessarily see elsewhere, where you can swing left across another direction, in a 'turn' that lasts sometimes 100 feet or more, where a sharp left and a sharp right might be a better design, and where the design would more clearly indicate priority. This on-ramp in Lake Stevens, WA (https://goo.gl/maps/vYyQzKiWQRFuamN38) is designed like this, although priority is still given to traffic entering WA-9. Traffic can pretty clearly see that the other direction has a stop sign, so that movement can keep going.
Now, still, in these cases, I've not seen one where the frontage road going in the 'wrong' direction (aka the direction without priority) did not have some sort of yield or stop sign posted (all posted examples here had some signage, and my example from Lake Stevens does as well). In these cases, I think drivers from elsewhere would be fine. If they were on the frontage road attempting to make a 'turn' onto the ramp, they may instinctively slow down to yield to traffic coming the other direction, but they'll quickly get the idea when that traffic stops for them. I don't see any danger arising from this situation. Off-ramps seem to be signed less, but on-ramps that cross opposing traffic seem to always be signed.
As an example of a non-Texas style interchange involving a two-way frontage road, Tacoma Mall Blvd runs along the west side of I-5 (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.1915761,-122.4656314,1676m/data=!3m1!1e3) in Tacoma, WA. At interchanges, it swings out to allow standard ramps to and from the frontage road:
(https://i.imgur.com/L5dAswQ.png)
Quote from: webny99 on October 28, 2020, 09:53:54 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 28, 2020, 08:17:06 PM
But there are millions of intersections all across the country where "who yields to whom" is not immediately clear. States vary in how they sign and mark intersections. This does not make them dangerous.
Millions? I honestly can't think of any (lest we drag up the "uncontrolled intersection" discussion we had a while back). But even so, as I said earlier, it doesn't make them actively dangerous as long as everyone using the intersection knows how it works and pays attention. But if this suddenly appeared tomorrow morning in this area, that would not be the case: likely several accidents would occur, followed by general outrage and confusion, before the drivers eventually adjust.
When I say "not immediately clear", I don't mean unsigned intersections (although I do use them very frequently). What I mean is that each intersection is slightly different from the next. The standard 90-degree four way intersection may be the most common shape, with a three-way T-intersection being second most common, but the point is that there are variations in angles, lanes, signage, priority, and whatnot all across this country. There may be standard protocols for certain designs or movements (left turns yield unless otherwise posted), but drivers don't approach intersections and assume priority simply based on the design alone: they look for signs, markings, signals, etc (none of these mean its an unsigned intersection, and priority is given to first arrivals). There are signs at these Texas on-ramps (not as many for off-ramps) to indicate who needs to do what. Left turns onto an on-ramp may have priority over oncoming traffic in law, but this ROW is almost always granted by signs in the field as well. Assuming there are signs, since this law does not exist elsewhere, I don't see why this design wouldn't work elsewhere.
That said, I'd rather the design weren't implemented elsewhere, as I consider it pretty weird and I hate the idea of traffic taking that long to cross oncoming traffic, even if they are stopped, but I don't think it would be a sea of collisions elsewhere.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 28, 2020, 05:35:08 PM
Actually, I see a huge difference. In the first example, there's no merge lane. ...
Geez, how did I miss that? I triple-checked my examples before posting, too. :banghead:
Quote from: jakeroot on October 29, 2020, 04:25:58 PM
I've not seen one where the frontage road going in the 'wrong' direction (aka the direction without priority) did not have some sort of yield or stop sign posted ...
Yeah, it's exceedingly rare. I'm sure I've seen one or two cases in Texas, but I have little to no idea where at the moment. In the case of typical Texas exits with two-way frontage roads, though,
both directions of
both frontage roads have to yield at
both ends of the interchange.
This basic rural interchange (https://goo.gl/maps/g7MqNorcyW8xwxmCA), for example, has a total of ten yield signs. It's pretty easy to imagine one missing or getting knocked down.
Quote from: kphoger on October 29, 2020, 05:11:59 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 29, 2020, 04:25:58 PM
I've not seen one where the frontage road going in the 'wrong' direction (aka the direction without priority) did not have some sort of yield or stop sign posted ...
Yeah, it's exceedingly rare. I'm sure I've seen one or two cases in Texas, but I have little to no idea where at the moment. In the case of typical Texas exits with two-way frontage roads, though, both directions of both frontage roads have to yield at both ends of the interchange. This basic rural interchange (https://goo.gl/maps/g7MqNorcyW8xwxmCA), for example, has a total of ten yield signs. It's pretty easy to imagine one missing or getting knocked down.
With this in mind: are we going to say that a certain design, regardless of signage and markings, is more dangerous than another? I'm not saying there isn't logic to that (multi-lane roundabouts have plenty of signage and markings and still have issues), but I think it's an unfair assumption that doesn't give drivers enough credit.
Meanwhile, my first earliest memories of riding around in my parents' car revolved around the Tinker Diagonal (that stretch of I-40 where I posted that awful onramp upthread), so any time I am using a frontage road my instincts are to always yield to the ramps. When you see enough cars flying down one of those ramps onto the frontage road at 50 MPH, you tend to not want to take any chances.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 29, 2020, 04:39:40 PM
... Left turns onto an on-ramp may have priority over oncoming traffic in law, but this ROW is almost always granted by signs in the field as well. Assuming there are signs, since this law does not exist elsewhere, I don't see why this design wouldn't work elsewhere.
That said, I'd rather the design weren't implemented elsewhere, as I consider it pretty weird and I hate the idea of traffic taking that long to cross oncoming traffic, even if they are stopped, but I don't think it would be a sea of collisions elsewhere.
Yeah, no disagreement from me on that. That's a system oddity that seems pretty unique to Texas and probably just became normal over the years. Most other states would either (1) make the frontage road one-way,
or (2) build the ramps at right angles to the frontage road,
or (3) separate the frontage road from the exit entirely, Ã la QEW.
I do get the concept of making the ramps free-flowing, but there are plenty of options that fit better with driver expectations and what we're accustomed to elsewhere in the road network. I know a lot of these are in rural areas, but certainly any that still exist in urban/suburban areas should be addressed.
This thread reminds me of when I was 18 and in Los Angeles for the first time, going up what then was called the Pasadena Freeway, with the very short exit and entrance ramps-- I remember seeing an exit ramp with speed of 5 mph posted, because it looked like the ramp did a right-angle turn to a stop sign.
I was expecting ramps similar to the Arroyo Seco's... these (outside the US 50 one in MD) are straightforward.
Quote from: webny99 on October 29, 2020, 03:15:36 PM
Quote from: skluth on October 29, 2020, 02:10:07 PM
Quote from: webny99 on October 28, 2020, 09:53:54 PM
But let's not kid ourselves: Frontage roads are hardly a thing outside the South, so there aren't many locations where it would even be relevant. Ontario, Canada, has a few, such as along the QEW, but they usually go around the interchange independently instead of using slip ramps, as shown here (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2072888,-79.5976328,16.38z/data=!5m1!1e1).
It's more accurate to say frontage roads are not commonly found in the Northeast than "hardly a thing outside the South." I've lived in Wisconsin, SE Virginia, St Louis, and now Southern California, and I've seen them in every place I've lived. Frontage roads, especially those found in what are often referred to as Texas-style freeways, are more common in the South. That doesn't make them hardly a thing elsewhere.
OK, so if we expand it to include the South and West, that would include all of those except Wisconsin, and I'm not sure that frontage roads are common there. The only one I could immediately find was along I-94 south of Milwaukee, and that's Ontario-style, where it goes around the interchange rather than using slip ramps.
A few other examples
I-41 near Wrightstown (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3195712,-88.2165157,14.74z?hl=en)
I-41 in Oshkosh (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.0169414,-88.5852351,14.74z?hl=en)
Madison Beltline (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.034469,-89.418648,15.99z?hl=en)
I-94 in Hudson (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.961407,-92.7262618,15.53z?hl=en)
There are several others. I grew up in Green Bay, and frontage roads were part of the local vocabulary. You don't get to say these aren't frontage roads if you've changed the definition. You didn't state Texas-style frontage roads. A frontage road is nothing more than a parallel road giving access to property who would have lost access otherwise, not how interchanges operate within it.
A frontage road in Delaware has the yield to those coming off thr ramp. Centerville Rd at 141 North. Centerville Rd.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/VTeybXhG9cqqJhTZ9