MOD NOTE: The first few posts here were split off from the general "California" thread on the Pacific Southwest board, where the video post was made. I thought it might be a topic that could generate greater discussion on the Traffic Control board. –Roadfro.
Quote from: STLmapboy on October 31, 2020, 12:03:34 PM
Here's a cool video on Caltrans wrong-way signs and two-way pavement reflectors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tcgZlYNUus&ab_channel=CaltransVideo
I think a lot of agencies are looking at these wrong way driver systems now.
The two-way pavement reflectors are nothing new (although I don't think I've seen a yellow/red combo before). But the extent to which Caltrans is using them for wrong way emphasis on off ramps is noteworthy. It is a relatively inexpensive countermeasure especially for areas that already employ raised pavement markers to just add more, but can add a bit in maintenance since the reflectors need to be replaced every so often because they get dirty or dislodged.
Nevada DOT has done a couple of pilots with active wrong way driver detection systems on off ramps, and now has at least two extensive systems in place in Reno: every off ramp on I-80 from the California state line at Verdi to Keystone Ave (exit 12), and every off ramp along US 395 from Oddie Blvd (exit 69) up to California state line at Bordertown (exit 83). I know there's also one or two test locations down in the Las Vegas area as well. NDOT's warning system differs in that it uses two sets of "Wrong Way" signs (first set in normal location at lower-than-normal height, then a second set at normal height but further up the ramp) and uses RRFB-like flash units with red LEDs above and below each sign (example at US 395 SB Parr Blvd exit (https://goo.gl/maps/9oafoDm351bq15q99)).*
After watching that video, I'm actually most intrigued by an item teased at the end: the pavement markings that show a red "do not enter" or red arrows embedded within white marking that only shows the red elements to a wrong way driver. That is really interesting, and I would like to see more about that.
*EDIT: I have learned since making this post that the red RRFB units NDOT is using for this warning system are part of an FHWA/MUTCD-approved experimentation 4(09)-56 (https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/reqdetails.asp?id=997), approved in 2016 and amended with additional locations in 2020.
Quote from: roadfro on October 31, 2020, 02:24:47 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on October 31, 2020, 12:03:34 PM
Here's a cool video on Caltrans wrong-way signs and two-way pavement reflectors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tcgZlYNUus&ab_channel=CaltransVideo
I think a lot of agencies are looking at these wrong way driver systems now.
The two-way pavement reflectors are nothing new (although I don't think I've seen a yellow/red combo before). But the extent to which Caltrans is using them for wrong way emphasis on off ramps is noteworthy. It is a relatively inexpensive countermeasure especially for areas that already employ raised pavement markers to just add more, but can add a bit in maintenance since the reflectors need to be replaced every so often because they get dirty or dislodged.
Nevada DOT has done a couple of pilots with active wrong way driver detection systems on off ramps, and now has at least two extensive systems in place in Reno: every off ramp on I-80 from the California state line at Verdi to Keystone Ave (exit 12), and every off ramp along US 395 from Oddie Blvd (exit 69) up to California state line at Bordertown (exit 83). I know there's also one or two test locations down in the Las Vegas area as well. NDOT's warning system differs in that it uses two sets of "Wrong Way" signs (first set in normal location at lower-than-normal height, then a second set at normal height but further up the ramp) and uses RRFB-like flash units with red LEDs above and below each sign (example at US 395 SB Parr Blvd exit (https://goo.gl/maps/9oafoDm351bq15q99)).
After watching that video, I'm actually most intrigued by an item teased at the end: the pavement markings that show a red "do not enter" or red arrows embedded within white marking that only shows the red elements to a wrong way driver. That is really interesting, and I would like to see more about that.
A very simple measure that I saw when I was driving in Arizona recently was that large "WRONG WAY" signs are mounted regularly to overpasses along US-60 through Mesa, positioned in such a way to be above the inside lane of both carriageways, facing away from the direction of travel. It looked like a relatively inexpensive, but probably highly effective way to quickly alert wrong way drivers.
Are there any systems that directly alert police a wrong way driver has been detected?
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 02, 2020, 03:35:52 PM
Are there any systems that directly alert police a wrong way driver has been detected?
I'm not sure if it directly alerts police, but NDOT's active warning systems here in Reno supposedly send a signal to the local traffic operations center if they are tripped. Since those stretches of freeway also have traffic cameras every 1/3-mile or so, traffic ops can check to verify and then put up an alert message on VMSs on the freeway upstream of the ramp where detected if needed.
I was actually exiting a ramp a few nights ago where the warning lights were going off. Didn't see a wrong-way driver, so not sure if it was a malfunction or if a driver corrected their mistake before I arrived. There wasn't a message on the upstream freeway VMSs.
I'm not surprised that CA is the one doing this, being the state that puts SIGNAL AHEAD, STOP AHEAD, and KEEP CLEAR on its roadway surfaces.
Quote from: Plutonic Panda on November 02, 2020, 03:35:52 PM
Are there any systems that directly alert police a wrong way driver has been detected?
My understanding is the wrong way driver system in Orlando automatically notifies FHP. It also automatically places messages on all the VMS boards. I've seen it a few times, but never actually seen a wrong way driver.
Orlando uses a red version of the RRFBs on their wrong way signs rather then leds integrated into the signs. I think thats quite a bit more visible and unusual then the LEDs CalTrans demonstrated in that video. Here's an example: https://www.google.com/maps/@28.4518305,-80.9796,3a,89.5y,290.87h,77.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sy8-izO3R39EekhEv4t18Mg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Outside of the VMSs, I don't think there is any other warning signs to correct facing drivers.
The red reflectors (including the yellow/red) have been standard in Florida on divided roads and highway ramps for as long as I can remember. Although most roads do not include yellow reflectors except in certain areas (such as ramps).
Doesn't Arizona have a wrong-way driver alert system on some of the Phoenix-area freeways?
Quote from: US 89 on November 06, 2020, 06:51:43 PM
Doesn't Arizona have a wrong-way driver alert system on some of the Phoenix-area freeways?
I believe that ADOT put something in on I-17 after a ton of wrong way drivers on the Black Canyon Freeway.
i was driving down i-25 one day... and my roommate calls me to tell me he just saw on the news someone driving the wrong way on i-25 at exit 252.
*i'm* near exit 252. so i look around.. and its not just one guy driving the wrong way... its EVERYONE!
terrible. i'll show myself out.
I have some red/white RPMs, but I haven't seen any red/yellow RPMs, and I certainly don't have any.
Quote from: jdbx on November 02, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
A very simple measure that I saw when I was driving in Arizona recently was that large "WRONG WAY" signs are mounted regularly to overpasses along US-60 through Mesa, positioned in such a way to be above the inside lane of both carriageways, facing away from the direction of travel. It looked like a relatively inexpensive, but probably highly effective way to quickly alert wrong way drivers.
I would like to se an example of that.
Quote from: MCRoads on November 07, 2020, 01:03:12 AM
Quote from: jdbx on November 02, 2020, 03:26:33 PM
A very simple measure that I saw when I was driving in Arizona recently was that large "WRONG WAY" signs are mounted regularly to overpasses along US-60 through Mesa, positioned in such a way to be above the inside lane of both carriageways, facing away from the direction of travel. It looked like a relatively inexpensive, but probably highly effective way to quickly alert wrong way drivers.
I would like to se an example of that.
Doesn't appear to be anything revolutionary...literally oversized "WRONG WAY" signs mounted overhead on overpasses every so often. But still a low-cost measure above and beyond the minimum.
Example I found on Google Maps: US 60 WB, looking backwards at Superstition Springs Blvd overpass (https://goo.gl/maps/A3JTEb31mWwQKt3A8)
Why can we not just install tire slashers on on-ramps? Especially HOV on-ramps which, at least in Washington, seem to cause the most confusion.
Quote from: TEG24601 on November 07, 2020, 02:12:50 PM
Why can we not just install tire slashers on on-ramps? Especially HOV on-ramps which, at least in Washington, seem to cause the most confusion.
Well, you'd need the tire slashers on the
off ramps to prevent the wrong way drivers... :pan:
But in actuality, those are not really designed to be taken at speed, which is why you only really see them at places where you expect vehicles to be driving slowly anyway (like exiting a pay parking lot). And there may be some cases where a vehicle may need to legitimately travel in the wrong direction on an off ramp–maintenance vehicles, emergency evacuations, etc. And I imagine the DOT would be at fault if for any reason the devices punctured tires of a driver actually going the right way, so there's probably potential liability issues as well.
Quote from: roadfro on November 07, 2020, 05:00:45 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on November 07, 2020, 02:12:50 PM
Why can we not just install tire slashers on on-ramps? Especially HOV on-ramps which, at least in Washington, seem to cause the most confusion.
Well, you'd need the tire slashers on the off ramps to prevent the wrong way drivers... :pan:
But in actuality, those are not really designed to be taken at speed, which is why you only really see them at places where you expect vehicles to be driving slowly anyway (like exiting a pay parking lot). And there may be some cases where a vehicle may need to legitimately travel in the wrong direction on an off ramp–maintenance vehicles, emergency evacuations, etc. And I imagine the DOT would be at fault if for any reason the devices punctured tires of a driver actually going the right way, so there's probably potential liability issues as well.
This is why they would remain fully retracted until a wrong-way driver is detected, then deployed. Better the cost for paying for new tires, than being sued for allowing a wrong-way driver onto the road.
Quote from: TEG24601 on November 07, 2020, 05:16:06 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 07, 2020, 05:00:45 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on November 07, 2020, 02:12:50 PM
Why can we not just install tire slashers on on-ramps? Especially HOV on-ramps which, at least in Washington, seem to cause the most confusion.
Well, you'd need the tire slashers on the off ramps to prevent the wrong way drivers... :pan:
But in actuality, those are not really designed to be taken at speed, which is why you only really see them at places where you expect vehicles to be driving slowly anyway (like exiting a pay parking lot). And there may be some cases where a vehicle may need to legitimately travel in the wrong direction on an off ramp—maintenance vehicles, emergency evacuations, etc. And I imagine the DOT would be at fault if for any reason the devices punctured tires of a driver actually going the right way, so there's probably potential liability issues as well.
This is why they would remain fully retracted until a wrong-way driver is detected, then deployed. Better the cost for paying for new tires, than being sued for allowing a wrong-way driver onto the road.
You really think that a driver who ignores bright red "Wrong Way" signs will pay any attention to the accompanying "Severe Tire Damage May Occur" sign?
And when the wrong-way driver has multiple blowouts, loses control, flips and dies - how fast do you think the lawyers can get to the courthouse to file? And they'd probably win, even though the driver might well have gotten into a head-on collision if not stopped. It doesn't matter that the tire slashers potentially saved a family of five plus grandma.
Quote from: TEG24601 on November 07, 2020, 05:16:06 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 07, 2020, 05:00:45 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on November 07, 2020, 02:12:50 PM
Why can we not just install tire slashers on on-ramps? Especially HOV on-ramps which, at least in Washington, seem to cause the most confusion.
Well, you'd need the tire slashers on the off ramps to prevent the wrong way drivers... :pan:
But in actuality, those are not really designed to be taken at speed, which is why you only really see them at places where you expect vehicles to be driving slowly anyway (like exiting a pay parking lot). And there may be some cases where a vehicle may need to legitimately travel in the wrong direction on an off ramp–maintenance vehicles, emergency evacuations, etc. And I imagine the DOT would be at fault if for any reason the devices punctured tires of a driver actually going the right way, so there's probably potential liability issues as well.
This is why they would remain fully retracted until a wrong-way driver is detected, then deployed. Better the cost for paying for new tires, than being sued for allowing a wrong-way driver onto the road.
There's still lots of issues with this, especially in cases of accidental deployment. And it becomes a system that likely has a higher up-front cost with additional needs for annual testing and regular maintenance.
A lot of the wrong way driver countermeasures are looking for relatively inexpensive measures that can be deployed fairly easily.
To me the coolest thing is what AZ installed. They've connected in PHX they're ramp meters to wrong way systems. So if a wrong way driver is detected, the ramp meters will stick to red, until the wrong way driver passed. This is super smart and I love it.
iPhone
This may make me sound incredibly stupid, but sometimes the way WRONG WAY signs are posted on islands, it isn't always clear which side of the road they're pointing towards. Usually it's the right, but not always. And so the WW sign faces you no matter what, and it's not clear which side you should be on.
So....Having an arrow below or to the left/right of the sign might communicate it better. IE (but in red):
This is for overheight vehicles, but it would work almost as well for wrong-way drivers. Sydney installed a system that, when an overheight vehicle is detected, turns on a water curtain, onto which a giant stop sign is projected.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImU1mG7QC4I
The only bad thing is that it's visible going both directions (mirror image coming the other way), and would obscure the view for right-way drivers. But if a wrong-way driver is coming, maybe the right-way drivers should be stopping and pulling over too to avoid the oncoming car.
Quote from: Dustin DeWinn on November 07, 2020, 10:59:57 PM
This may make me sound incredibly stupid, but sometimes the way WRONG WAY signs are posted on islands, it isn't always clear which side of the road they're pointing towards. Usually it's the right, but not always. And so the WW sign faces you no matter what, and it's not clear which side you should be on.
So....Having an arrow below or to the left/right of the sign might communicate it better. IE (but in red):
Some ramps in Maine (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7268608,-70.2350076,3a,53.5y,69.99h,87.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfhsMhnbz4GEOtmt9EXvN3w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) and Massachusetts (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8382411,-70.9361471,3a,28.7y,134.98h,82.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svJnJPKRqrQfAds9AT3Z-zg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) use ENTER HERE signs with an arrow to indicate to drivers where they should enter the freeway.
In the case of the Maine one, the sign has flashing white beacons on the borders of the signs, similar to what MaineDOT does at some STOP, YIELD and SPEED LIMIT signs.
Quote from: fwydriver405 on November 08, 2020, 09:08:59 AM
Quote from: Dustin DeWinn on November 07, 2020, 10:59:57 PM
This may make me sound incredibly stupid, but sometimes the way WRONG WAY signs are posted on islands, it isn't always clear which side of the road they're pointing towards. Usually it's the right, but not always. And so the WW sign faces you no matter what, and it's not clear which side you should be on.
So....Having an arrow below or to the left/right of the sign might communicate it better. IE (but in red):
Some ramps in Maine (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7268608,-70.2350076,3a,53.5y,69.99h,87.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfhsMhnbz4GEOtmt9EXvN3w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) and Massachusetts (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8382411,-70.9361471,3a,28.7y,134.98h,82.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svJnJPKRqrQfAds9AT3Z-zg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) use ENTER HERE signs with an arrow to indicate to drivers where they should enter the freeway.
In the case of the Maine one, the sign has flashing white beacons on the borders of the signs, similar to what MaineDOT does at some STOP, YIELD and SPEED LIMIT signs.
The techie in me suggests that cars be improved such that it is more difficult to drive them in the wrong direction. The techie in me also says that there are a number of "$5.00" solutions to the problem on the road. In addition to the red reflectors on the pavement, how putting red reflectors on the back of signs as well? How about putting up negative speed limit signs? How about putting up some "TURN AROUND" signs on the back of other signs
One-off, oversized, overhead Wrong Way (https://goo.gl/maps/TyjCtni2ogCBCqa16) sign. This is over an old alignment of road that is now an offramp, and needs to be seen in snowy conditions. The sign next to it also said Wrong Way according to older Street Views, but has faded.
Quote from: michravera on November 08, 2020, 11:57:23 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on November 08, 2020, 09:08:59 AM
Quote from: Dustin DeWinn on November 07, 2020, 10:59:57 PM
This may make me sound incredibly stupid, but sometimes the way WRONG WAY signs are posted on islands, it isn't always clear which side of the road they're pointing towards. Usually it's the right, but not always. And so the WW sign faces you no matter what, and it's not clear which side you should be on.
So....Having an arrow below or to the left/right of the sign might communicate it better. IE (but in red):
Some ramps in Maine (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7268608,-70.2350076,3a,53.5y,69.99h,87.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfhsMhnbz4GEOtmt9EXvN3w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) and Massachusetts (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8382411,-70.9361471,3a,28.7y,134.98h,82.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svJnJPKRqrQfAds9AT3Z-zg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) use ENTER HERE signs with an arrow to indicate to drivers where they should enter the freeway.
In the case of the Maine one, the sign has flashing white beacons on the borders of the signs, similar to what MaineDOT does at some STOP, YIELD and SPEED LIMIT signs.
The techie in me suggests that cars be improved such that it is more difficult to drive them in the wrong direction. The techie in me also says that there are a number of "$5.00" solutions to the problem on the road. In addition to the red reflectors on the pavement, how putting red reflectors on the back of signs as well? How about putting up negative speed limit signs? How about putting up some "TURN AROUND" signs on the back of other signs
If drivers are already ignoring signs that say things like "DO NOT ENTER" , and, "WRONG WAY" , why would they listen to additional signs?
I think the best solution ms are passive solutions, in which radars detect wrong way drivers, send out a message to SHP, DOT, VMS's, and possibly even to drivers directly through a mobile alert for anyone in the area, but do nothing to actually stop the driver. Any active barrier may cause more harm than good, such as the spike strip example. It may work, but it may also cause unnecessary damage. Parking garages have this same issue, as sometimes the spikes do not lower for vehicles driving the correct way, and cause punctures. Besides, disabling a vehicle on a busy road is a terrible idea anyway.
Quote from: fwydriver405 on November 08, 2020, 09:08:59 AM
Quote from: Dustin DeWinn on November 07, 2020, 10:59:57 PM
This may make me sound incredibly stupid, but sometimes the way WRONG WAY signs are posted on islands, it isn't always clear which side of the road they're pointing towards. Usually it's the right, but not always. And so the WW sign faces you no matter what, and it's not clear which side you should be on.
So....Having an arrow below or to the left/right of the sign might communicate it better. IE (but in red):
Some ramps in Maine (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7268608,-70.2350076,3a,53.5y,69.99h,87.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfhsMhnbz4GEOtmt9EXvN3w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) and Massachusetts (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8382411,-70.9361471,3a,28.7y,134.98h,82.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svJnJPKRqrQfAds9AT3Z-zg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) use ENTER HERE signs with an arrow to indicate to drivers where they should enter the freeway.
In the case of the Maine one, the sign has flashing white beacons on the borders of the signs, similar to what MaineDOT does at some STOP, YIELD and SPEED LIMIT signs.
These instances could be partially mitigated by angling or moving the signage on the median along with other measures. Here's an example from Reno, Nevada (https://goo.gl/maps/CkwdLE5uDF2jS7MWA), which moves the "do not enter" further back on the median, angles it toward the wrong way side (better facing the left turn traffic, but still visible to oncoming traffic), supplements with a "one way" arrow, and there's also a "freeway entrance" sign package with arrow on the nose of the median and far corner.
Quote from: MCRoads on November 08, 2020, 02:52:55 PM
Quote from: michravera on November 08, 2020, 11:57:23 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on November 08, 2020, 09:08:59 AM
Quote from: Dustin DeWinn on November 07, 2020, 10:59:57 PM
This may make me sound incredibly stupid, but sometimes the way WRONG WAY signs are posted on islands, it isn't always clear which side of the road they're pointing towards. Usually it's the right, but not always. And so the WW sign faces you no matter what, and it's not clear which side you should be on.
So....Having an arrow below or to the left/right of the sign might communicate it better. IE (but in red):
Some ramps in Maine (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7268608,-70.2350076,3a,53.5y,69.99h,87.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfhsMhnbz4GEOtmt9EXvN3w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) and Massachusetts (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8382411,-70.9361471,3a,28.7y,134.98h,82.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svJnJPKRqrQfAds9AT3Z-zg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) use ENTER HERE signs with an arrow to indicate to drivers where they should enter the freeway.
In the case of the Maine one, the sign has flashing white beacons on the borders of the signs, similar to what MaineDOT does at some STOP, YIELD and SPEED LIMIT signs.
The techie in me suggests that cars be improved such that it is more difficult to drive them in the wrong direction. The techie in me also says that there are a number of "$5.00" solutions to the problem on the road. In addition to the red reflectors on the pavement, how putting red reflectors on the back of signs as well? How about putting up negative speed limit signs? How about putting up some "TURN AROUND" signs on the back of other signs
If drivers are already ignoring signs that say things like "DO NOT ENTER" , and, "WRONG WAY" , why would they listen to additional signs?
I think the best solution ms are passive solutions, in which radars detect wrong way drivers, send out a message to SHP, DOT, VMS's, and possibly even to drivers directly through a mobile alert for anyone in the area, but do nothing to actually stop the driver. Any active barrier may cause more harm than good, such as the spike strip example. It may work, but it may also cause unnecessary damage. Parking garages have this same issue, as sometimes the spikes do not lower for vehicles driving the correct way, and cause punctures. Besides, disabling a vehicle on a busy road is a terrible idea anyway.
It doesn't sound like you and I disagree much. Making cars so that they are harder to drive in the wrong direction or on the wrong side of the road is just an additional safety feature along the lines of Lane Departure Alerts and Lane Tracking Assistance. There needs to be a way to override such assistance and to disable the alerts for a short time (for instance, if you are in a parking lot so close to the road that it appears that you are on it, or you are turning your car around on the side of the road to face the wrong direction to give a jump start).
My point of making the back sides of signs reflect red is that it is a fairly low cost thing just to help the dope get a clue before he kills someone and more things that he sees that don't make sense and try to grab his attention can only help.
I absolutely agree that destroying parts of the car is probably not a good idea. If the dope wakes up to the idea that he is headed in the wrong direction, it will take quite a bit less time to stop or drive off the roadway and turn around than to clean up what is now a disabled vehicle facing the wrong direction in the travel lanes.
Yes, in particularly idiot-prone areas, where either the existing markings and signage, despite best efforts to the contrary, have proved insufficient (and drivers might have frequently used some brain-cancelling chemical assistance), RADAR, traffic camera, phone alerts, VMS, or a transporter beam, whatever. Alert the cops, alert the other drivers, alert the media, roll an ambulance, call out the Air Force, but nothing fixes a wrong-way driver faster than the wrong-way driver himself (once he gets a clue)!
Quote from: TEG24601 on November 07, 2020, 05:16:06 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 07, 2020, 05:00:45 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on November 07, 2020, 02:12:50 PM
Why can we not just install tire slashers on on-ramps? Especially HOV on-ramps which, at least in Washington, seem to cause the most confusion.
Well, you'd need the tire slashers on the off ramps to prevent the wrong way drivers... :pan:
But in actuality, those are not really designed to be taken at speed, which is why you only really see them at places where you expect vehicles to be driving slowly anyway (like exiting a pay parking lot). And there may be some cases where a vehicle may need to legitimately travel in the wrong direction on an off ramp–maintenance vehicles, emergency evacuations, etc. And I imagine the DOT would be at fault if for any reason the devices punctured tires of a driver actually going the right way, so there's probably potential liability issues as well.
This is why they would remain fully retracted until a wrong-way driver is detected, then deployed. Better the cost for paying for new tires, than being sued for allowing a wrong-way driver onto the road.
I'm trying to imagine how this plays out...
1. Driver inadvertently starts up the off-ramp.
2. Detection system notices wrong-way driver.
3. Tire slashers are deployed.
4. Driver runs over tire slashers.
5. Vehicle becomes inoperable in the middle of the off-ramp.
6. Trucker exits the highway at 60 mph.
7. (This does not end well.)
Quote from: TEG24601 on November 07, 2020, 05:16:06 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 07, 2020, 05:00:45 PM
Quote from: TEG24601 on November 07, 2020, 02:12:50 PM
Why can we not just install tire slashers on on-ramps? Especially HOV on-ramps which, at least in Washington, seem to cause the most confusion.
Well, you'd need the tire slashers on the off ramps to prevent the wrong way drivers... :pan:
But in actuality, those are not really designed to be taken at speed, which is why you only really see them at places where you expect vehicles to be driving slowly anyway (like exiting a pay parking lot). And there may be some cases where a vehicle may need to legitimately travel in the wrong direction on an off ramp–maintenance vehicles, emergency evacuations, etc. And I imagine the DOT would be at fault if for any reason the devices punctured tires of a driver actually going the right way, so there's probably potential liability issues as well.
This is why they would remain fully retracted until a wrong-way driver is detected, then deployed. Better the cost for paying for new tires, than being sued for allowing a wrong-way driver onto the road.
You may also want to include a tar pit.
So...what normally happens when a car tire blows out? There's an instant loss of control of the vehicle. The vehicle may start swerving over the roadway. It's bad enough when this happens on a highway where everyone goes the same direction. When this happens on a 2 way roadway, or on a ramp entering the highway, now you're setting up for a head-on collision.
So...what happens when there's 4 blown tires on a vehicle going the wrong way when traffic is headed right at it? Again...that will not end well either.
Also, how is a transportation department sued for "allowing a wrong-way driver onto the roadway"? They didn't "allow" anything. There is usually signage around the ramp indicating that it's for the opposing direction. Even minimal signage is sufficient enough, even if it falls short of what the MUTCD calls for.
Although not a response based system (but rather a signage bridge assembly), the Ville Marie Expressway/ Autoroute 720 in Montreal uses a (what I assuming is a) hybrid fiber optic static display with the No entry symbol combined with a pulsing "Entree Interdit" (Entry prohibited), The first link below is the off ramp from 720 Oust/ West to Saint Marc and the second being off ramp to Rue De La Montagne. Perhaps for a non-native of Montreal the assemblies do grab your attention, though I'm assume they just become background noise with time.
https://earth.google.com/web/@45.49118566,-73.57755662,46.78881073a,0d,60y,148.1542h,90.8828t,-0r/data=IhoKFms1SGpsZmFtcEM1emtPS1ZRMFFsTGcQAg?utm_source=earth7&utm_campaign=vine&hl=en (https://earth.google.com/web/@45.49118566,-73.57755662,46.78881073a,0d,60y,148.1542h,90.8828t,-0r/data=IhoKFms1SGpsZmFtcEM1emtPS1ZRMFFsTGcQAg?utm_source=earth7&utm_campaign=vine&hl=en)
https://goo.gl/maps/7Sipdcp6EfzwMZsk6 (https://goo.gl/maps/7Sipdcp6EfzwMZsk6)
On Caltrans marking of the off ramps with the do not enter stripe for opposing traffic, I feel they took some inspiration from the aviation sector; any taxiway crossing a runway (short of encroachment limits) is typically striped white on red with the runway numbering and/or ILS. Curiously for high speed turnoffs (typically no more than a 30 degree angle) at airports not under FAA regulation, a no entry stripe is utilized.
https://goo.gl/maps/2XBWbHn9YPqkr7ib9
Yellow-and-black "TURN AROUND" sign beyond usual "WRONG WAY" sign at I-40 Exit 214/Wendover Avenue in Greensboro.
the NC 540 toll road has light-up wrong way signs at toll gantries, although it seems like its a bit too late to be warning the wrong-way drivers...
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7924381,-78.888893,3a,41.3y,357.04h,86.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s39IoYMNJfBhBBJbqo1HncA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Back in the 1970s NYSDOT used to install "DO NOT ENTER" / "WRONG WAY" at the top of an exit ramp and "WRONG WAY" / "GO BACK" half way down the ramp. Both sign combinations were installed at a 30-ish degree angle to the ramp and on both sides of the ramp. The signs were fairly large. Why did this practice stop?
The installations I'm thinking of had Do Not Enter "hamburgers" instead of a circle with a barrier in the middle of circle like we see today.
Does any state still use "GO BACK"?
Quote from: fillup420 on January 02, 2021, 10:54:08 PM
the NC 540 toll road has light-up wrong way signs at toll gantries, although it seems like its a bit too late to be warning the wrong-way drivers...
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7924381,-78.888893,3a,41.3y,357.04h,86.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s39IoYMNJfBhBBJbqo1HncA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
For drivers making U-turns to avoid paying the toll?
Quote from: Katavia on January 02, 2021, 11:52:59 AM
https://goo.gl/maps/2XBWbHn9YPqkr7ib9
Yellow-and-black "TURN AROUND" sign beyond usual "WRONG WAY" sign at I-40 Exit 214/Wendover Avenue in Greensboro.
And the poor placement has them centered between the drivers going the correct direction and the incorrect one... :pan:
Quote from: fillup420 on January 02, 2021, 10:54:08 PM
the NC 540 toll road has light-up wrong way signs at toll gantries, although it seems like its a bit too late to be warning the wrong-way drivers...
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7924381,-78.888893,3a,41.3y,357.04h,86.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s39IoYMNJfBhBBJbqo1HncA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
There appears to be a small access road right before it for the maintenance workers to park for the toll gantry... its probably to try to alert them if they make a wrong turn when returning back onto the highway?
Here's this system National Sign & Signal has for that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ92OZCUVPw
On the topic of wrong way spikes...Colombia has that covered. At least it looks like it.
http://prntscr.com/wfk29j
http://prntscr.com/wfk3l6
Disclaimer: I am not taking a side by posting that.
I posted this in the "Strange Arrows On Pavement" thread a couple of days ago...
Quote from: CoreySamson on December 31, 2020, 03:03:23 PM
The reflectors look a lot like something I've seen used a lot on exit ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.0650409,-95.4527125,3a,23.4y,187.96h,77.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swqijAt-Wn7KSbGpDhCLX7Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) in my area, except these are located much closer to the gore sign, so it's more clear what's going on. I believe they exist to combat wrong-way drivers at night, as the back of each reflector is red. The dumb thing about these is that even though they've all been installed in the past couple years, the glue that holds the reflectors to the tarmac doesn't appear to be that durable (something to do with the heat?) and many of the reflectors get jarred loose by cars running them over, so I don't like them too much.
Is this common practice elsewhere in the U.S?
PA has been known to use ENTER HERE in places as well, but I don't know if it is really a wrong-way prevention measure or just a traditional supplement at an entry intersection with lots of islands and dividers.
The Mass Pike used to have flashing red lights at the wrong-way facing directions of entrances at rest areas (https://goo.gl/maps/X3FsdsRLNGKcKa9R6), mounted on a streetlight pole. Most are still around, but I don't know how effective they would be for someone not paying attention. It's probably a little more effective with the WRONG WAY or DO NOT ENTER sign still there (https://goo.gl/maps/tbXNKVJg4WQRnQjn9).
Quote from: CoreySamson on January 03, 2021, 06:15:21 PM
I posted this in the "Strange Arrows On Pavement" thread a couple of days ago...
Quote from: CoreySamson on December 31, 2020, 03:03:23 PM
The reflectors look a lot like something I've seen used a lot on exit ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.0650409,-95.4527125,3a,23.4y,187.96h,77.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swqijAt-Wn7KSbGpDhCLX7Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) in my area, except these are located much closer to the gore sign, so it's more clear what's going on. I believe they exist to combat wrong-way drivers at night, as the back of each reflector is red. The dumb thing about these is that even though they've all been installed in the past couple years, the glue that holds the reflectors to the tarmac doesn't appear to be that durable (something to do with the heat?) and many of the reflectors get jarred loose by cars running them over, so I don't like them too much.
Is this common practice elsewhere in the U.S?
Those reflectors are patterned after the MUTCD one-way pavement marking arrow. Not sure that doing this with reflectors is common.
I believe Nevada DOT has a detail for it in their standard plans with reflectors. But I can count on zero hands the amount of times I've seen a one-way pavement marking in Nevada, let alone one done with raised pavement marker reflectors.
The Thruway has a small blurb on their Innovation page (http://www.thruway.ny.gov/oursystem/maintenance/innovation.html (http://www.thruway.ny.gov/oursystem/maintenance/innovation.html)) that describes LED signs activated by Doppler.
Image from linked section: (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thruway.ny.gov%2Foursystem%2Fimg%2Finnovation%2Fwrong-way.jpg&hash=bb4f4b1d1b899cdadef65744074b6534ab810c65)
Quote from: index on January 03, 2021, 06:03:13 PM
Here's this system National Sign & Signal has for that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ92OZCUVPw
Their web site has nothing but a broken link about it (a press release from 2013; wonder if it didn't sell well?); did it only activate when traffic came up the ramp the right way or would it flash when something came the wrong way too (I hope so)? The latter is when it is needed much more; when no oncoming traffic is around to indicate that you are going the wrong way before you enter the mainline.
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on November 08, 2020, 02:16:09 PM
One-off, oversized, overhead Wrong Way (https://goo.gl/maps/TyjCtni2ogCBCqa16) sign. This is over an old alignment of road that is now an offramp, and needs to be seen in snowy conditions. The sign next to it also said Wrong Way according to older Street Views, but has faded.
Here's what it looked like last weekend, with the crazy amount of snow up there right now that really is the only warning you get!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50997246708_52cc4a21f8_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kGsdJh)
It's not quite a one-off though, the offramp to Mercer St (https://goo.gl/maps/vspHXEMBAjxutCDo9) in Seattle has the same thing.