Why aren't these a thing? Doghouses are common for left turn protected and unprotected phases; however, they're rare for a protected right turn.
I made a mock-up of what I'm talking about (note this intersection/street does not exist):
(https://i.imgur.com/c6Vf2f3.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/3NPtIF8.png)
There's actually one that I know of in Monroe, WA on US 2.
(https://i.imgur.com/87TPO7I.png)
https://goo.gl/maps/zqqbwCvUBuFBLBH46
NJDOT generally uses bi-modal green/yellow arrows rather than doghouses, but what you're describing can be found here: https://goo.gl/maps/L74rapiiQBCeQsJk7 . The bottom of the left signal is a left arrow, bottom of the right signal is a right arrow. Zoom out to see that both signals are duplicated closer to the stop line, which is standard in NJ providing 2 indications per movement.
That said your point is taken: Having both left and right arrows seems to be fairly rare. Part of the issue may be a right arrow indicates priority, whereas a permitted u-turn at a traffic light on the cross street actually would give them priority.
They're pretty common in the Chicagoland area, except with towers. Here (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7864812,-88.0740863,3a,51.4y,354.91h,91.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s91GasYGxFB5ar_2WI4bjUA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192/) are (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7875732,-88.0093487,3a,75y,82.87h,89.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLCMi5Oax0RGL9asGPQyZwg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192/) some (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.7173359,-87.8758153,3a,73.9y,260.1h,88.32t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCF8aT-E2zcm1haO_b1uIDA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656/) examples (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6150803,-88.1233205,3a,74.9y,359.1h,77.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJK21iK2Y1_pM5fcnC1IY0w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192/).
what program did you use to mock that up?
Here's one near my neighborhood. I find it odd that there's that center signal head when there are two thru lanes, a left-only lane, and a right-only lane–it seems like the two doghouses alone should be enough.
https://goo.gl/maps/VR2uimCp6CzmkYScA
They used to be really common in South Florida, but horizontally mounted signals on mast arms combined with FYAs have killed new installations for some time now
https://www.google.com/maps/@26.4084234,-80.1865859,3a,15y,1.77h,93.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1synALoMCj-X5oujrFYXJNRA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Toledo, OH has a lot of these, but mostly with inline-5's. Many date as far back as the '70s.
https://goo.gl/maps/YwjM1wtpzbWhnJzX8 (https://goo.gl/maps/YwjM1wtpzbWhnJzX8)
Typically, one is on a mast-arm while the other is on a stanchion off to the side, or, as shown, mounted to another pole.
this intersection in Chattanooga, TN at Northpoint Blvd at Hixson Pike has them https://goo.gl/maps/NirUUWSUnDbkvgCf7
Quote from: KEK Inc. on November 16, 2020, 03:20:21 PM
Why aren't these a thing? Doghouses are common for left turn protected and unprotected phases; however, they're rare for a protected right turn.
I made a mock-up of what I'm talking about (note this intersection/street does not exist):
(https://i.imgur.com/c6Vf2f3.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/3NPtIF8.png)
There's actually one that I know of in Monroe, WA on US 2.
(https://i.imgur.com/87TPO7I.png)
https://goo.gl/maps/zqqbwCvUBuFBLBH46
We have TONS (literally TONS) of these in MA (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201117/47d4ffdbb5b674a7e860ed811f0b8b37.jpg)
iPhone
Quote from: KEK Inc. on November 16, 2020, 03:20:21 PM
Why aren't these a thing? Doghouses are common for left turn protected and unprotected phases; however, they're rare for a protected right turn.
Generally speaking, I would say these definitely are a thing. I think Illinois has the most examples of this, although using in-line 5-section towers instead of doghouses.
Puyallup had
at least a few examples of (https://goo.gl/maps/Y5A97zRZNYxbLBr59) "double doghouses" until about 5 years ago, when they started to replace them with 4-section bi-modal right turn signals, and FYAs for the left turns.
I'm still trying to locate an example of a quadruple doghouse: far left corner, two overhead, and another on the right corner. I think Spokane has an example somewhere.
There's a few in Maine I could think of in my head:
Sanford (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3999384,-70.702365,3a,26.5y,228.85h,87.76t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sLGaeLYF42sxsdbDh44kllg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DLGaeLYF42sxsdbDh44kllg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D206.05049%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192), my hometown No longer the case as of May 2024
Augusta (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3137812,-69.8060765,3a,57.7y,214.28h,82.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5nc5WDENeOynKCkqbguN5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (this one's for a right turn)
Brewer (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7766404,-68.7333587,3a,22.2y,227.21h,91.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spJCGbntOKoHtaZPhjUUCSg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
South Portland, 1 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6339778,-70.3496106,3a,75y,238.85h,80.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6TiYBoJ9rQ8SXsLys3k2BA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
South Portland, 2 with an all arrow RYG signal (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6341742,-70.2562829,3a,25.2y,36.73h,88.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUaLyoyCW-30wzb4HbBGZ6Q!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DUaLyoyCW-30wzb4HbBGZ6Q%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D38.223824%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
South Portland, 3 off the Casco Bay Bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.636534,-70.2565792,3a,23.5y,76.82h,92.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soQiXCQr37qtowyQ1N-IF0g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Portland (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6535888,-70.2790554,3a,23.5y,260.37h,89.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sw8uPDofmKiEiBJUd_pdwmQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dw8uPDofmKiEiBJUd_pdwmQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D238.86511%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)
Former assembly in Scarborough before Payne Rd got reconfigured (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5717841,-70.3869357,3a,75y,8.68h,83.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sde30t3WIkFm1hOrkzuSHzA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Not sure if this counts, but former assembly in Biddeford for the right turn (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4757056,-70.5110625,3a,35.6y,329.63h,89.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQtR1jJCdexMdklhkNuHy_Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
There are also a few double bimodal-4's around here as well, this is the only one I could think of currently:
Scarborough (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6240884,-70.3466946,3a,22y,113.9h,89.63t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1slt88fIcy8tzaZyExKtFVOw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dlt88fIcy8tzaZyExKtFVOw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D203.40245%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)
EDIT, left out one in Bangor (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8179413,-68.7739866,3a,51.8y,181.17h,92.67t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8CSz_93cQP5SGUicM91iXg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D8CSz_93cQP5SGUicM91iXg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D217.5382%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)... drive by this one on a daily basis.
NB Skinker Boulevard at Forest Park Parkway in St. Louis, MO has a double doghouse for a protected-permissive dual left. (https://goo.gl/maps/RGTsnKGNNdfUiKvq8)
I think the real reason two side by side doghouses are uncommon is many places use one signal head per lane, centered over the extension of the lane, which requires a three-section head between the two doghouses. Plus many places use separate signs (usually yield signs unless in Wisconsin) to control right turns.
8 doghouses (2 per approcach) on span wire at NY 31 at NY 96 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0907827,-77.5150191,3a,38.2y,285.1h,95.84t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sC2ZW_y3sUJ3T6rx57i6oWg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DC2ZW_y3sUJ3T6rx57i6oWg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D293.13287%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) in Pittsford NY. Bet there are more installations like this around NYS...
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3779952,-71.1202343,3a,60y,202.41h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sICgm0Stc9_DQAQyi3GD4Rg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 19, 2020, 11:07:35 AM
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3779952,-71.1202343,3a,60y,202.41h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sICgm0Stc9_DQAQyi3GD4Rg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
What am I looking for? There are no doghouses in that view.
Quote from: Big John on November 19, 2020, 12:24:35 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 19, 2020, 11:07:35 AM
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3779952,-71.1202343,3a,60y,202.41h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sICgm0Stc9_DQAQyi3GD4Rg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
What am I looking for? There are no doghouses in that view.
Based on his last post in the 'Traffic Signal' thread, I think he's got his links mixed up again :-D.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 19, 2020, 12:29:33 PM
Quote from: Big John on November 19, 2020, 12:24:35 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 19, 2020, 11:07:35 AM
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3779952,-71.1202343,3a,60y,202.41h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sICgm0Stc9_DQAQyi3GD4Rg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
What am I looking for? There are no doghouses in that view.
Based on his last post in the 'Traffic Signal' thread, I think he's got his links mixed up again :-D.
Yeah here's the issue: I switched to safari this week, and now all my google maps links keep switching up. Lemme modify it rq.
iPhone
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 19, 2020, 01:13:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 19, 2020, 12:29:33 PM
Quote from: Big John on November 19, 2020, 12:24:35 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 19, 2020, 11:07:35 AM
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3779952,-71.1202343,3a,60y,202.41h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sICgm0Stc9_DQAQyi3GD4Rg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
What am I looking for? There are no doghouses in that view.
Based on his last post in the 'Traffic Signal' thread, I think he's got his links mixed up again :-D.
Yeah here's the issue: I switched to safari this week, and now all my google maps links keep switching up. Lemme modify it rq.
Foolish move! Why change to Safari? I'm not aware of any platform where Safari is the only option.
NY 33 at NY 386 in Rochester, NY
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1441223,-77.7323106,3a,15y,185.42h,92.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfbKeIdHo-9JX3aJwRwIwSg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en&authuser=0
There are others in my area.
I've also seen this done with four section signals using bi modal arrows.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 19, 2020, 05:21:37 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 19, 2020, 01:13:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 19, 2020, 12:29:33 PM
Quote from: Big John on November 19, 2020, 12:24:35 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 19, 2020, 11:07:35 AM
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3779952,-71.1202343,3a,60y,202.41h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sICgm0Stc9_DQAQyi3GD4Rg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
What am I looking for? There are no doghouses in that view.
Based on his last post in the 'Traffic Signal' thread, I think he's got his links mixed up again :-D.
Yeah here's the issue: I switched to safari this week, and now all my google maps links keep switching up. Lemme modify it rq.
Foolish move! Why change to Safari? I'm not aware of any platform where Safari is the only option.
Haha, I'm a MacOS user, and decided I'd get rid of Chrome when Big Sur came out. Besides that I've had no issues, and it's actually faster.
Anyways, try this link! https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3643068,-71.1160976,3a,75y,14.62h,87.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sp9BCjOUx7UiDSvWbjlrK4A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
These are pretty common in North Carolina, NCDOT makes use a lot of right turn doghouses.
Quote from: Dustin DeWinn on November 16, 2020, 08:54:30 PMwhat program did you use to mock that up?
Wondering this as well.
You mean like these? With towers, and not doghouses.
https://goo.gl/maps/quU5JBBfHtBkRGTh7
https://goo.gl/maps/uhvsx5PHQwxXCYvL7
https://goo.gl/maps/kFNEmq6Q9dw6P4HHA
While looking around at bus signals near Buena Vista Dr in Orlando FL (in Disney World), spotted these sets of newly installed double doghouses:
1. (https://www.google.com/maps/@28.3692547,-81.5263605,3a,35.9y,42.95h,91.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBon0-pyTMrOnkgrGXD1Adg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
2. (https://www.google.com/maps/@28.3727335,-81.5411491,3a,75y,357.27h,86.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWcMXNNMKlkLWpp_1DbEJyA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Quote from: Brandon on November 19, 2020, 07:39:47 PM
You mean like these? With towers, and not doghouses.
https://goo.gl/maps/quU5JBBfHtBkRGTh7
https://goo.gl/maps/uhvsx5PHQwxXCYvL7
https://goo.gl/maps/kFNEmq6Q9dw6P4HHA
I mentioned earlier that, in my opinion, Illinois likely has the most examples of this in the country. It's just that they use 5-section towers. The sheer number of right turn overlap signals in Illinois is simply outstanding.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 19, 2020, 11:01:15 PM
Quote from: Brandon on November 19, 2020, 07:39:47 PM
You mean like these? With towers, and not doghouses.
https://goo.gl/maps/quU5JBBfHtBkRGTh7
https://goo.gl/maps/uhvsx5PHQwxXCYvL7
https://goo.gl/maps/kFNEmq6Q9dw6P4HHA
I mentioned earlier that, in my opinion, Illinois likely has the most examples of this in the country. It's just that they use 5-section towers. The sheer number of right turn overlap signals in Illinois is simply outstanding.
I wish right turn overlap were used more often in my area. They exist in certain places, but there could be more. They really help move traffic along for busy right turns.
Bravo Illinois for making good use of a helpful traffic feature.
Two I'm aware of in Maryland:
-MD 85 south at Executive Way outside Frederick (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3700534,-77.4125119,3a,74.5y,225.39h,85.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGo56lxdeVlX5aYI3AZzW1A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
-McDonogh Road east at MD 140 in Garrison (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3973615,-76.7492437,3a,45.1y,66.12h,89.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sF-V3RVXHO4DorrB1rP3Jtw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
Quote from: mrsman on November 20, 2020, 08:18:06 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 19, 2020, 11:01:15 PM
Quote from: Brandon on November 19, 2020, 07:39:47 PM
You mean like these? With towers, and not doghouses.
https://goo.gl/maps/quU5JBBfHtBkRGTh7
https://goo.gl/maps/uhvsx5PHQwxXCYvL7
https://goo.gl/maps/kFNEmq6Q9dw6P4HHA
I mentioned earlier that, in my opinion, Illinois likely has the most examples of this in the country. It's just that they use 5-section towers. The sheer number of right turn overlap signals in Illinois is simply outstanding.
I wish right turn overlap were used more often in my area. They exist in certain places, but there could be more. They really help move traffic along for busy right turns.
Bravo Illinois for making good use of a helpful traffic feature.
I would agree. I can think of many intersections where they are could be useful but are not used.
It does seem, though, they are less common in certain areas thanks to the propensity to provide for signalized U-turns that aren't of the "yield to right turns" variety. This situation seems especially common, from what I've seen, in California, Washington, and Nevada. But certainly other states and areas too.
But then there are areas like Illinois or British Columbia where medians are very common but where signalized U-turns are rare as hens teeth. The expectation for those who must do a U-turn seems to be "fine, just not here".
Quote from: jmacswimmer on November 20, 2020, 09:45:40 AM
Two I'm aware of in Maryland:
-MD 85 south at Executive Way outside Frederick (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3700534,-77.4125119,3a,74.5y,225.39h,85.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGo56lxdeVlX5aYI3AZzW1A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
-McDonogh Road east at MD 140 in Garrison (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3973615,-76.7492437,3a,45.1y,66.12h,89.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sF-V3RVXHO4DorrB1rP3Jtw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
I'm deeply disappointed that neither of those intersections have near-side right-turn doghouses, as they do for the left turn doghouse. Otherwise, I would have finally found my intersection with four doghouse signals!
Here are some more double doghouse signals around my area I know of:
Maine:
Wiscasset (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.0052567,-69.6696409,3a,38.1y,184.71h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snH5MboJ6pX_p1OgUPrdY4Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en), side note, notice the sign in the median... :hmmm:
Westbrook (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6509226,-70.3576252,3a,52.1y,284.33h,84.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXMR3XowZsVUbI5g9T3qtdQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
Massachusetts:
Stoughton (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1243341,-71.1017078,3a,30.3y,146.27h,84.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_cMjkdpK74ofCeQ1u3WdjQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Two more examples of double inline bimodal 4's for left and right:
Portland, 1 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6508014,-70.3371824,3a,20.6y,96.36h,92.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWyEbinn4R0C_Rj8eovTewg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) and 2 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6644671,-70.2583412,3a,22.1y,216.53h,89.97t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-zfsshRCxEN8NHHrCswQ7w!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D-zfsshRCxEN8NHHrCswQ7w%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D40.893703%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
This one (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.790041,-86.9715098,3a,22.6y,192.35h,94.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s13smqr0tHFtFItSRxcIQCw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) in Athens AL is/was for a double permissive left (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BwyyuoKjDU&ab_channel=freebrickproductions)... not sure if the phasing got changed to split phasing based on current GSV view (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.790041,-86.9715098,3a,22.6y,192.35h,94.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s13smqr0tHFtFItSRxcIQCw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) and the removal of the "LEFT TURN YIELD ON GREEN" sign.
I know for a fact I've seen a triple doghouse configuration around my area somewhere... I just can't figure out where in the world it would be located.
By the way, does it count if there a mix of doghouses and inline 4/5 section signals? I know some places like CA likes to put the doghouses on the mast arms, and the inline signals on the poles.
Quote from: fwydriver405 on November 21, 2020, 11:24:54 PM
By the way, does it count if there a mix of doghouses and inline 4/5 section signals? I know some places like CA likes to put the doghouses on the mast arms, and the inline signals on the poles.
I would say no, as that tends to be a really common occurrence–at least in my experience. In Nevada for example, if there's a doghouse overhead for a left turn lane, there's a greater than 95% chance that there's also a post-mounted vertical 5-section display on the far left corner.
For me, the more intriguing posts in this thread have been those instances of unexpected or unusual doghouse applications. Like the two overhead doghouses where one has a left turn arrow set and another has a right turn arrow set. Or instances of two doghouses for two left turn lanes. Or seeing multiple post-mounted doghouses (since, at least for my area, post-mounted doghouses are a rarity).
My contribution to the thread is the only example I have ever seen in my home state, but it no longer exists–fortunately, GSV captured it in 2009 (https://goo.gl/maps/ehLZDWLkjvt5HSaRA). The intersection of Craig Road & Rainbow Blvd in Las Vegas used to have offset protected-permitted left turns in a wide median, and the doghouses were post-mounted in the median, one far side and one near side for each direction (so there was double double doghouses). And interestingly, there were no far left 5-section pole-mounts here. This was all changed circa 2010-11 (https://goo.gl/maps/XKddNJWnXWT63Wg79), as double left turns were put in and the medians reconfigured–there's still front and rear facing post-mounted left turn signals in the median, and far-left pole-mounted signal heads were added. (Notably, it is still one of the few intersections in the Las Vegas Valley where you'll find post-mounted signals in the median.)
There are a pair of doghouses at the dual intersection of Carter Hill Road, Mulberry Street and Narrow Lane Road in Montgomery, Alabama.
Dropped pin
Near Mulberry St, Montgomery, AL 36106
https://maps.app.goo.gl/qKrEXDes1Gxozf4B7
Quote from: fwydriver405 on November 21, 2020, 11:24:54 PM
I know for a fact I've seen a triple doghouse configuration around my area somewhere... I just can't figure out where in the world it would be located.
Triple doghouses in NY. I know I've posted this intersection before on the forums
https://maps.app.goo.gl/6cPzAj4CmUBvNRkG6
And another example close by. The road with the doghouses uses split phasing, NY normally installs a 4 section tower or a doghouse with no yellow arrow for split phasing
https://maps.app.goo.gl/msJrNKrjPhkzqAeF7
Found this from another topic that jakeroot posted in,
Flashing red in all directions at an intersection:
Quote from: jakeroot on November 27, 2019, 03:02:44 AM
I'm thinking this is part of a theme. A few blocks away, there is another similar signal with all 8-inch signals with four doghouses, all of which were just installed as part of an upgrade of the signal:
https://goo.gl/maps/rjjTn6jbnoKyUzaF8
Brandon has Illinois covered, but I thought I'd add a fun little bonus fact-- here's an intersection where EVERY SINGLE APPROACH is a double-tower. And there isn't a SINGLE three-section head at the entire intersection! I'm sure this isn't the only place where this has happened in Illinois, either! https://goo.gl/maps/gnnvQg271boWT2Tz8
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8301272,-69.9737699,3a,34.1y,9.82h,93.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbH8kBtAbOW7roFBXRo66Ng!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
With a 6-aspect signal, is it best to have the FYA portion of the signal:
1. Shared with the steady yellow arrow in the left-middle aspect, or
2. Shared with the steady green arrow in the left-bottom aspect, via a bimodal arrow?
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2020, 01:28:16 AM
What I would like to see is the adoption of a six-face signal, where there's basically a three-head all-arrow display directly adjacent to a three-head all-orb display (ideally surrounded by a single backplate). These would allow greater flexibility for the above situations where the full functionality of a dedicated turn signal (TOD phasing, pedestrian protection, etc) cannot be afforded due to the option lane, but would allow the placement of an orb display over the option lane. This is currently difficult (basically impossible) to achieve given rules around the physical separation of signals. Plus, there's the issue with left turn signals directly above a lane likely leading drivers to believe that lane to be only for turns (good example here (https://goo.gl/maps/5pqurgokx2g65TS69) -- virtually zero drivers use the left lane to go straight).
Quote from: fwydriver405 on November 28, 2020, 02:13:26 PM
With a 6-aspect signal, is it best to have the FYA portion of the signal:
1. Shared with the steady yellow arrow in the left-middle aspect, or
2. Shared with the steady green arrow in the left-bottom aspect, via a bimodal arrow?
I'm not totally sold on one way being the best. But I am used to seeing the middle aspect as the flashing part, rather than a bi-modal bottom lens.
The ideal setup would obviously be to use a 4-aspect FYA adjacent to a 3-aspect RYG signal, but that seems pretty awkward.
Parts of Indiana have Right Turn doghouses on the near and far corners of the intersection.
Quote from: US71 on November 28, 2020, 07:05:38 PM
Parts of Indiana have Right Turn doghouses on the near and far corners of the intersection.
Which parts? I've never seen this.
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2020, 07:20:03 PM
Quote from: US71 on November 28, 2020, 07:05:38 PM
Parts of Indiana have Right Turn doghouses on the near and far corners of the intersection.
Which parts? I've never seen this.
I'll have to check my photos, but it was in the Indianaoplis area.
Quote from: fwydriver405 on November 28, 2020, 02:13:26 PM
With a 6-aspect signal, is it best to have the FYA portion of the signal:
1. Shared with the steady yellow arrow in the left-middle aspect, or
2. Shared with the steady green arrow in the left-bottom aspect, via a bimodal arrow?
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2020, 01:28:16 AM
What I would like to see is the adoption of a six-face signal, where there's basically a three-head all-arrow display directly adjacent to a three-head all-orb display (ideally surrounded by a single backplate). These would allow greater flexibility for the above situations where the full functionality of a dedicated turn signal (TOD phasing, pedestrian protection, etc) cannot be afforded due to the option lane, but would allow the placement of an orb display over the option lane. This is currently difficult (basically impossible) to achieve given rules around the physical separation of signals. Plus, there's the issue with left turn signals directly above a lane likely leading drivers to believe that lane to be only for turns (good example here (https://goo.gl/maps/5pqurgokx2g65TS69) -- virtually zero drivers use the left lane to go straight).
I say bimodel section. The issue with the bimodel arrow in a 4 section signal is that color blind people can't see the change green to yellow; but the FYA never goes green to solid yellow in the same orb. Sure it could go flashing yellow to green but that's different since it's flashing to solid.
iPhone
Quote from: US71 on November 28, 2020, 07:36:18 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2020, 07:20:03 PM
Quote from: US71 on November 28, 2020, 07:05:38 PM
Parts of Indiana have Right Turn doghouses on the near and far corners of the intersection.
Which parts? I've never seen this.
I'll have to check my photos, but it was in the Indianaoplis area.
The first thing I thought of when I read this was in Logansport as SR 25 leaves town to the north--but the near-side one on the pole of the cantilever isn't a doghouse for whatever reason, but a 5-stack. Uncommon for INDOT, and who knows why it's like that. (https://goo.gl/maps/kiqXd7V6Y9AuxjmLA) There was room for a doghouse; the signal for the side street sticks out more than what a doghouse would have. I can't think of that many stacks like that that I've ever seen in Indiana, which makes this one memorable.
Found a double doghouse in Mississippi (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.367214,-88.6735183,3a,75y,286.94h,82.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soCzPdta4gyHibEQSTqC1Fg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656/). May be the first MS example on the thread.
A few MA examples:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3384475,-71.2070453,3a,75.2y,38.42h,88.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s85jNRNoGLrhtAd15pxAyEA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3358831,-71.1935294,3a,23y,58.63h,90.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spYlWVorF5-dzVw5i0yxjTQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3379995,-71.2114211,3a,32.7y,316.8h,94.07t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sB-Dyx-dV6-W_prxT2axszA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4084483,-71.1457695,3a,31.3y,339.77h,92.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY62wqH0CGqsn-4cVe4I8kw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.405673,-71.1422265,3a,28.8y,321.85h,91.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFC9EHKqFOmEIug4a6XOiUQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0659783,-70.757853,3a,32.6y,346.97h,95.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shqoz2EXLZgeAAfZNXlsw2A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
I remember a few examples of these on the "double permissive left" thread a while ago:
WB Rodriguez St to SB I-110 in D'Iberville, MS (https://www.google.com/maps/@30.4299739,-88.8952032,3a,51.4y,328.8h,78.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sePRTO65c04J-24bpTz_XWA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Lehi, UT (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4316906,-111.8809745,3a,45.8y,191.08h,96.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY_8gCCYzAmmLggF3QmwONQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Colorado Springs, CO (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9156622,-104.817128,3a,43.1y,310.02h,87.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMgHnwPiz4n9WJk8ZyrQWuw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Council Bluffs, Iowa mixed with a 5-section inline signal (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.2305941,-95.8513178,3a,74.1y,93.98h,89.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJxCeo7GVOpX7hQvJFZEZbg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
Seymour, IN (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9579161,-85.8625167,3a,62.3y,349.66h,85.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjFSq9kYJFmwIV2so6GGPDQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
San Antonio, TX (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.4389576,-98.4505716,3a,31.6y,178.38h,89.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9TQrkx7-7Bv_-qSknoUP5Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Atlanta, GA at Cascade Road on the onramp to I-285 N (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.7229589,-84.5022648,3a,81.7y,75.29h,78.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbjh2607dph04ZU1IoyZUgQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Garden City, Kansas (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.9894275,-100.8417053,3a,38.8y,102.36h,91.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snjDfCtS5KOS7dvCTUcHOwg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Fishers, IN (three doghouses on one approach) (https://goo.gl/maps/2gjAMsEuQRD46w8C6)
A bonus, double FYA signals for right turns:
Ashville NC (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5670706,-82.5445639,3a,75y,259.78h,91.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKcSn6rsaLpFGmUPGDa3dwQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
And two more in MA on Route 228:
1 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1657601,-70.8940475,3a,27.9y,241.74h,91.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s0J0k1t6HWpxXW87Pw64_EQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D0J0k1t6HWpxXW87Pw64_EQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D236.33025%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192), 2 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1668968,-70.8900171,3a,52.9y,269.66h,90.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szKoldEqVpJF9ptXkvVnRig!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Here's an intersection near Indianapolis with multiple doghouses.
https://goo.gl/maps/goHe4vDEu7D3ySF86
Quote from: US71 on December 04, 2020, 06:25:37 PM
Here's an intersection near Indianapolis with multiple doghouses.
https://goo.gl/maps/goHe4vDEu7D3ySF86
That intersection should use FYAs, the railroad preemption could cause yellow trap
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2020, 01:28:16 AM
What I would like to see is the adoption of a six-face signal, where there's basically a three-head all-arrow display directly adjacent to a three-head all-orb display (ideally surrounded by a single backplate). These would allow greater flexibility for the above situations where the full functionality of a dedicated turn signal (TOD phasing, pedestrian protection, etc) cannot be afforded due to the option lane, but would allow the placement of an orb display over the option lane. This is currently difficult (basically impossible) to achieve given rules around the physical separation of signals. Plus, there's the issue with left turn signals directly above a lane likely leading drivers to believe that lane to be only for turns (good example here (https://goo.gl/maps/5pqurgokx2g65TS69) -- virtually zero drivers use the left lane to go straight).
So if the left and middle signals in this (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7667018,-69.7201058,3a,17.4y,344.27h,90.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-WhHjAKXokbS0KyiGCsjjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) example were merged into one 6-section signal... would it work as described above? This intersection has option lanes...
Quote from: fwydriver405 on December 05, 2020, 11:55:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2020, 01:28:16 AM
What I would like to see is the adoption of a six-face signal, where there's basically a three-head all-arrow display directly adjacent to a three-head all-orb display (ideally surrounded by a single backplate). These would allow greater flexibility for the above situations where the full functionality of a dedicated turn signal (TOD phasing, pedestrian protection, etc) cannot be afforded due to the option lane, but would allow the placement of an orb display over the option lane. This is currently difficult (basically impossible) to achieve given rules around the physical separation of signals. Plus, there's the issue with left turn signals directly above a lane likely leading drivers to believe that lane to be only for turns (good example here (https://goo.gl/maps/5pqurgokx2g65TS69) -- virtually zero drivers use the left lane to go straight).
So if the left and middle signals in this (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7667018,-69.7201058,3a,17.4y,344.27h,90.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-WhHjAKXokbS0KyiGCsjjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) example were merged into one 6-section signal... would it work as described above? This intersection has option lanes...
Yikes--isn't it standard not to use the FYA with option lanes like that? That is one place where doghouses still go up in places that have adopted FYA (e.g., Indiana).
Quote from: PurdueBill on December 06, 2020, 12:59:24 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on December 05, 2020, 11:55:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2020, 01:28:16 AM
What I would like to see is the adoption of a six-face signal, where there's basically a three-head all-arrow display directly adjacent to a three-head all-orb display (ideally surrounded by a single backplate). These would allow greater flexibility for the above situations where the full functionality of a dedicated turn signal (TOD phasing, pedestrian protection, etc) cannot be afforded due to the option lane, but would allow the placement of an orb display over the option lane. This is currently difficult (basically impossible) to achieve given rules around the physical separation of signals. Plus, there's the issue with left turn signals directly above a lane likely leading drivers to believe that lane to be only for turns (good example here (https://goo.gl/maps/5pqurgokx2g65TS69) -- virtually zero drivers use the left lane to go straight).
So if the left and middle signals in this (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7667018,-69.7201058,3a,17.4y,344.27h,90.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-WhHjAKXokbS0KyiGCsjjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) example were merged into one 6-section signal... would it work as described above? This intersection has option lanes...
Yikes--isn't it standard not to use the FYA with option lanes like that? That is one place where doghouses still go up in places that have adopted FYA (e.g., Indiana).
Yes. An all-arrow signal display can only be used over an exclusive left turn lane. For this particular application, the FYA display should be removed and just have the two standard signals maybe with an optional R10-12 (Left turn yield on green [green ball symbol]) sign.
Quote from: roadfro on December 06, 2020, 03:49:37 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on December 06, 2020, 12:59:24 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on December 05, 2020, 11:55:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2020, 01:28:16 AM
What I would like to see is the adoption of a six-face signal, where there's basically a three-head all-arrow display directly adjacent to a three-head all-orb display (ideally surrounded by a single backplate). These would allow greater flexibility for the above situations where the full functionality of a dedicated turn signal (TOD phasing, pedestrian protection, etc) cannot be afforded due to the option lane, but would allow the placement of an orb display over the option lane. This is currently difficult (basically impossible) to achieve given rules around the physical separation of signals. Plus, there's the issue with left turn signals directly above a lane likely leading drivers to believe that lane to be only for turns (good example here (https://goo.gl/maps/5pqurgokx2g65TS69) -- virtually zero drivers use the left lane to go straight).
So if the left and middle signals in this (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7667018,-69.7201058,3a,17.4y,344.27h,90.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-WhHjAKXokbS0KyiGCsjjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) example were merged into one 6-section signal... would it work as described above? This intersection has option lanes...
Yikes--isn't it standard not to use the FYA with option lanes like that? That is one place where doghouses still go up in places that have adopted FYA (e.g., Indiana).
Yes. An all-arrow signal display can only be used over an exclusive left turn lane. For this particular application, the FYA display should be removed and just have the two standard signals maybe with an optional R10-12 (Left turn yield on green [green ball symbol]) sign.
Right, to both of you. But that wasn't the point trying to be made: I'd redirect you both to this post on the last page.
fwydriver405 was asking if that example (the one in his link) would be a good place to try my
conceptual 6-aspect signal (conceptual meaning not permitted by the current MUTCD, by the way...no need to point it out).
As to my opinion: yes, it would be a great place to try it. But I would use post-mounted signals in addition to overhead signals to further enhance that these signals are not meant to be interpreted on a lane-by-lane basis (they are, by design, shared signals -- I don't show it, but I picture a near-side repeater of the right-most signal in my design below to help ensure there is more than one right turn signal):
Quote from: jakeroot on November 28, 2020, 01:28:16 AM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50654883018_0749b9cfcb_o.png)
I know I mentioned this somewhere else, but DC uses two adjacent signal faces in a similar context to the 6 aspect doghouse:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9846804,-77.0266712,3a,37.5y,191.47h,89.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srD922zjgv-iL0LVOAqOk8Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Regular doghouses in DC are rare. I can't think of any at the moment. There are HAWKs though, so not every signal in DC is a tower.
The above signal is odd with all three signal faces (left postmounted <zoom out to see>, center on mast arm, right postmounted) having both the thru signal and the left arrow signal. I can see the need for two signal faces, but I don't understand why the left arrows are displayed on the right postmount.
This signal, a short distance away, is even worse. 5 aspect towers with left turn arrows on both the left and right postmounts, but not on the mast arms.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9785017,-77.0184569,3a,37.5y,248.8h,81.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIdA76-5WtI1kxarYixeJEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
I don't recall DC using their very short mast arms on any signal face taller than 3 aspects. The very common 4 aspect and 5 aspect signal faces on towers all seem to be postmounted [or on heavy-duty mast arms that exist in some places, usually near the freeway entrances].
^^
That signal along Georgia Ave is definitely quite odd. I think they could improve it by considering a design like the concept I presented above: the right-most signal could instead use a right-facing arrow for pedestrian protection (which could then also be repeated near-side), swapping the placement of course.
The use of green orbs on all corners, even with fully protected turns, seems to be an art practiced only in DC from what I've seen.
Seriously, this is by far the most Australian-looking intersection I've ever seen in the US, and there doesn't seem to be a close second (apart from a couple other DC intersections):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50696376417_2a4afa209f_o.png)
Here is one in Camillus/Fairmount NY, Onondaga Rd crossing West Genesee St.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0469388,-76.2388018,3a,90y,9.58h,84.83t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUym5iaDOFUAkbMt7afiRXg!2e0!5s20190801T000000!7i16384!8i8192
Mast arm install, I think was put up early 2000s... Lane guidance on the mast arm. Also, street names mounted overhead, which is not common in the area (then again, most along W. Gensesee St in the area are wire-span.)
From Springfield PA, Sproul Rd at Baltimore Pike
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.913576,-75.3494137,3a,75y,206h,87.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQUpbhs5Mh1AAMWHAmFm5MQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
The right arrow comes on during the yellow phase, I guess to encourage right-turning traffic to continue. Note the vintage "Right turn on red after stop" still extant.
^^^^^^^
Whenever leading left of the cross traffic direction follows the phase of green, it is helpful to have green right arrow during yellow. It essentially tells cars to keep going and makes the right turns continuous. Query whether yellow + green arrow occurs at all times or only if there is no pedestrian who pushes the button. Technically, the pedestrian clearance interval (FDW) and countdown timers are supposed to stop before the yellow signal. Peds are not supposed to be crossing during yellow, but realistically, the yellow phase does provide a last few seconds for people to cross. Knowing this, I do wonder if they would still put in place a green arrow on yellow if the pedestrian call has been activated.
A signal in my area (at a T intersection) also produces a green arrow with yellow ball when cross street gets a leading left, but there, peds are prohibited from crossing on that side of the street anyway (and green arrow is always lit with green ball).
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0470333,-77.0484935,3a,75y,0.92h,75.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sg62ffRYsBh_iGJ_1xZhyPQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
To stay on topic, one block away, there is a double doghouse:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0471569,-77.0517774,3a,75y,299.81h,79.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYqq-p_1n0aKz8UbCOT7ryg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: mrsman on December 07, 2020, 09:16:30 PM
I don't recall DC using their very short mast arms on any signal face taller than 3 aspects. The very common 4 aspect and 5 aspect signal faces on towers all seem to be postmounted [or on heavy-duty mast arms that exist in some places, usually near the freeway entrances].
I
think there's a very few small mast arms with doghouses scattered throughout the city, but can't recall where.
Quote from: mrsman on December 25, 2020, 12:19:56 PM
Whenever leading left of the cross traffic direction follows the phase of green, it is helpful to have green right arrow during yellow. It essentially tells cars to keep going and makes the right turns continuous. Query whether yellow + green arrow occurs at all times or only if there is no pedestrian who pushes the button. Technically, the pedestrian clearance interval (FDW) and countdown timers are supposed to stop before the yellow signal. Peds are not supposed to be crossing during yellow, but realistically, the yellow phase does provide a last few seconds for people to cross. Knowing this, I do wonder if they would still put in place a green arrow on yellow if the pedestrian call has been activated.
Per MUTCD (figure 4E-2), the pedestrian phasing *can* extend into into the yellow part of the vehicle phase. You can even use part of the red clearance for pedestrian clearance, so long as there is a minimum 3 second buffer before conflicting traffic gets their green. With that said, it does appear that most agencies do set up phasing so the pedestrian countdown coincides with the onset of yellow (or ends before yellow).
Quote from: roadfro on December 26, 2020, 03:03:38 PM
Quote from: mrsman on December 25, 2020, 12:19:56 PM
Whenever leading left of the cross traffic direction follows the phase of green, it is helpful to have green right arrow during yellow. It essentially tells cars to keep going and makes the right turns continuous. Query whether yellow + green arrow occurs at all times or only if there is no pedestrian who pushes the button. Technically, the pedestrian clearance interval (FDW) and countdown timers are supposed to stop before the yellow signal. Peds are not supposed to be crossing during yellow, but realistically, the yellow phase does provide a last few seconds for people to cross. Knowing this, I do wonder if they would still put in place a green arrow on yellow if the pedestrian call has been activated.
Per MUTCD (figure 4E-2), the pedestrian phasing *can* extend into into the yellow part of the vehicle phase. You can even use part of the red clearance for pedestrian clearance, so long as there is a minimum 3 second buffer before conflicting traffic gets their green. With that said, it does appear that most agencies do set up phasing so the pedestrian countdown coincides with the onset of yellow (or ends before yellow).
Thank you for that. I was basing my comment more on observation than on a technical reading of the MUTCD.
So if a 3 second buffer is required, and if it is typical for the 3 second buffer to coincide with the yellow phase of the signal, would it be fair to conclude that the yellow signal and green arrow would not be lit together even preceding a leading green arrow on the cross street when pedestrians are crossing with the green orb signal?
The 3 second buffer is intereting in another context. Pre-COVID, I would regularly cross at a Barnes Dance. It seemed to me that the traffic on one of the streets was released immediately after the countdown went down to zero, so watch out. This seems to be a violation of this rule. (Other normal nearby intersections don't have this problem as the yellow comes on after the countdown comes down to zero, which provides at least a 3 second buffer. I could tell you that when you are used to having a grace period of a few seconds after the countdown timer gets to zero, not having at a Barnes Dance put in place primarily for PEDESTRIAN SAFETY can be jarring.)
For an example of the FDW phase extending not only into the solid yellow, but also the red phase, see this intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/MKmUup6WA3m5zuEy6) in Tacoma, WA. The all-red phase is about two seconds, standard for the city.
A video I made a little while back:
https://youtu.be/MXXuUl3WfQM
Here's an example (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3360498,-71.193087,3a,76.5y,256.86h,93.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syVwh4Hesg9666M7VuBMzNg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) of three post mounted doghouses in Newton MA.
Quote from: mrsman on December 25, 2020, 12:19:56 PM
Whenever leading left of the cross traffic direction follows the phase of green, it is helpful to have green right arrow during yellow. It essentially tells cars to keep going and makes the right turns continuous. Query whether yellow + green arrow occurs at all times or only if there is no pedestrian who pushes the button. Technically, the pedestrian clearance interval (FDW) and countdown timers are supposed to stop before the yellow signal. Peds are not supposed to be crossing during yellow, but realistically, the yellow phase does provide a last few seconds for people to cross. Knowing this, I do wonder if they would still put in place a green arrow on yellow if the pedestrian call has been activated.
But if the oncoming left turn(s) were permissive, would that cause yellow trap for the permissive left turns who entered the intersection on green or yellow during the clearance phase since the right turns don't stop at all? Sources: 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbYnp8zdCjs), 2 (https://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/yeltrap2.htm), and replies 111-122 in this thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22346.msg2363003#msg2363003).
Quote from: fwydriver405 on December 28, 2020, 01:16:20 PM
Here's an example (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3360498,-71.193087,3a,76.5y,256.86h,93.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syVwh4Hesg9666M7VuBMzNg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) of three post mounted doghouses in Newton MA.
Quote from: mrsman on December 25, 2020, 12:19:56 PM
Whenever leading left of the cross traffic direction follows the phase of green, it is helpful to have green right arrow during yellow. It essentially tells cars to keep going and makes the right turns continuous. Query whether yellow + green arrow occurs at all times or only if there is no pedestrian who pushes the button. Technically, the pedestrian clearance interval (FDW) and countdown timers are supposed to stop before the yellow signal. Peds are not supposed to be crossing during yellow, but realistically, the yellow phase does provide a last few seconds for people to cross. Knowing this, I do wonder if they would still put in place a green arrow on yellow if the pedestrian call has been activated.
But if the oncoming left turn(s) were permissive, would that cause yellow trap for the permissive left turns who entered the intersection on green or yellow during the clearance phase since the right turns don't stop at all? Sources: 1 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbYnp8zdCjs), 2 (https://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/yeltrap2.htm), and replies 111-122 in this thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22346.msg2363003#msg2363003).
Yes. You are correct, there is still the possibility of a yellow trap problem for opposing permissive left turns. I participated in that earlier thread and it seems as if my answer there were more precise to account for that possibility:
Quote
It is only dangerous where there is a conflict. If the next signal phase is a leading protected left turn for cross traffic, green arrow + yellow would be OK so long as there is no pedestrian conflict or conflict with opposing left turns. In most cases, if pedestrians could cross there, they face a solid hand (DON'T WALK) when yellow comes on, so that would not normally be the problem. Jakeroot properly identified the conflict with opposing permissive left turns that could exist. But in situations where there is no conflict (opposing left prohibited, opposing left restricted to protected only, or no opposing left [T-intersections]), this is actually helpful to keep traffic flowing.
Double doghouses, specifically where only 2 such signals are controlling a particular direction, are more common than many may think. There are many examples in Virginia alone.
But what about dual-facing doghouses?
Here's a former example in Hampton, VA that stood for years. Actually there's dual-facing 5-section towers at the same intersection (both pictured below). Sadly, those doghouses where knocked down by some idiot last month and they were replaced with 5-sections to match what is across the street.
US 258 Mercury Blvd at Woodland Rd
Can still be seen on GSV
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201228/3abc74c706492e28d68b0afe67653af1.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201228/22ab46e355405884cafedddd185debf9.jpg)
moto g(7) optimo (XT1952DL)
Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 26, 2020, 01:13:25 PM
Brandon has Illinois covered, but I thought I'd add a fun little bonus fact-- here's an intersection where EVERY SINGLE APPROACH is a double-tower. And there isn't a SINGLE three-section head at the entire intersection! I'm sure this isn't the only place where this has happened in Illinois, either! https://goo.gl/maps/gnnvQg271boWT2Tz8
Found another one in Montgomery, NY at Highways 17K and 208. Two doghouses in each direction for a total of eight doghouses on one span wire.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5255536,-74.2005546,3a,43.5y,266.33h,89.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUHY2Ng0kBQCYth12MS35yw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
I am not a fan of the aesthetics of the doghouse signal and hope that with FYA's, we will start to see them go away. For the life of me, I do not understand the doghouse signal being used on a pedestal mount. It looks god-awful.
Attached is a double doghouse for left turn in Tampa. https://goo.gl/maps/PiwMtiKKfXFVJVyH8 (https://goo.gl/maps/PiwMtiKKfXFVJVyH8). This originally features dual horiztonal-5 in-line left turn signals, but my guess is the expressway authority determined that those were more confusing to drivers and installed these instead. Because this intersection enters reversible express lanes, a driver could only drive straight here at certain times of the day.
A ConnDOT example about a mile from my apartment.
Photo is old but it shows that this intersection has had double doghouses for a while. Old and new side-by-side.
https://goo.gl/maps/DQYg36QeTy8C57Gv5 (https://goo.gl/maps/DQYg36QeTy8C57Gv5)
Quote from: Caps81943 on December 30, 2020, 11:29:07 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on November 26, 2020, 01:13:25 PM
Brandon has Illinois covered, but I thought I'd add a fun little bonus fact-- here's an intersection where EVERY SINGLE APPROACH is a double-tower. And there isn't a SINGLE three-section head at the entire intersection! I'm sure this isn't the only place where this has happened in Illinois, either! https://goo.gl/maps/gnnvQg271boWT2Tz8
Found another one in Montgomery, NY at Highways 17K and 208. Two doghouses in each direction for a total of eight doghouses on one span wire.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.5255536,-74.2005546,3a,43.5y,266.33h,89.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUHY2Ng0kBQCYth12MS35yw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
The way this intersection is laid out, it allows for maximum mobility for each direction of traffic and each turning direction. There is a lane for each direction (left, straight, right) on each approach. Right turn green arrows to correspond with each protected left. Right turns can go without being blocked at all opportunities: RTOR during cross traffic green (and opposing protected lefts), RT on green with yield to peds, and right turn protected during corresponding cross traffic lefts. Protected/permissive lefts.
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on December 30, 2020, 01:51:12 PM
A ConnDOT example about a mile from my apartment.
Photo is old but it shows that this intersection has had double doghouses for a while. Old and new side-by-side.
https://goo.gl/maps/DQYg36QeTy8C57Gv5 (https://goo.gl/maps/DQYg36QeTy8C57Gv5)
Hey I've been there!
iPhone