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National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: Roadgeekteen on November 27, 2020, 06:12:50 PM

Title: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Roadgeekteen on November 27, 2020, 06:12:50 PM
Can't think of any but I'm sure there are some.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Avalanchez71 on November 29, 2020, 02:13:53 AM
I-65 in KY.  I-75 in GA.  I-95 in FL.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Rothman on November 29, 2020, 03:05:21 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on November 29, 2020, 02:13:53 AM
I-65 in KY.  I-75 in GA.  I-95 in FL.
Nah.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: sprjus4 on November 29, 2020, 03:33:32 AM
I-464 in Hampton Roads.

While 6 lanes is certainly nice to have, it could suffice with just 4 lanes, albeit heavy.

The highway carries around 50,000 AADT, compared to 4 lane VA-168 to the south which carries nearly 80,000 AADT.

I-664 was built around the same time, with only 4 lanes, and carries 70,000 - 90,000 AADT. This would've been the better choice for 6 lane construction vs. I-464, though that would present issues with the bridge tunnel. I-664 on the Peninsula is 6 lanes and needs it.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Bruce on November 29, 2020, 04:47:16 AM
SR 99 on the Aurora Bridge in Seattle.

The bridge is too narrow to safely have six lanes, with buses and trucks having to straddle a pair to get across. Ideally there would also be a median barrier to prevent head-on and crossover crashes like the infamous one in 2015 involving a charter bus and a duck boat.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: kphoger on November 30, 2020, 03:00:50 PM
For the first few years I lived in Wichita, I thought the Canal Route (I-135) was over-built and could function fine as a four-lane highway.  Then my work hours changed and I saw what it's like during rush hour.  Nope!
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: pianocello on November 30, 2020, 05:42:51 PM
I'm guessing very few. Seems like agencies are more likely to upgrade 2-lane roads to 4 than 4-lane roads to 6+, so the 6-lane roads are very carefully thought out.

If I had to choose a candidate for this thread, I'd go with I-55 in central Illinois, but like most of these examples, the third lane is nice to have around.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on November 30, 2020, 06:00:41 PM
I thought of this question once the other thread appeared. My first thought was possibly something somewhere in Detroit, though I couldn't specifically say what.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: GaryV on November 30, 2020, 06:10:19 PM
Many places around Detroit could use more lanes.  I can't think of any that could be reduced.  At off-peak times the capacity isn't fully used, but it sure clogs up during those peaks.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Roadgeekteen on November 30, 2020, 06:14:00 PM
Quote from: GaryV on November 30, 2020, 06:10:19 PM
Many places around Detroit could use more lanes.  I can't think of any that could be reduced.  At off-peak times the capacity isn't fully used, but it sure clogs up during those peaks.
If the city keeps losing population that could change /s/.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Tom958 on November 30, 2020, 06:46:02 PM
I-75 south of Macon, from I-475 to the next interchange north at Pio Nono Avenue.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Roadgeekteen on November 30, 2020, 09:24:19 PM
I-95 north of MA 128 always seemed a bit overbuilt.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Flint1979 on November 30, 2020, 10:08:25 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on November 30, 2020, 06:14:00 PM
Quote from: GaryV on November 30, 2020, 06:10:19 PM
Many places around Detroit could use more lanes.  I can't think of any that could be reduced.  At off-peak times the capacity isn't fully used, but it sure clogs up during those peaks.
If the city keeps losing population that could change /s/.
It doesn't have much to do with the city losing population, the metro area is bigger today than it was when Detroit was at it's peak population by about a million people. Detroit's freeways do need to be expanded, I-94 is only six lanes through the city but indeed warrants more lanes. And plus Detroit sits on the busiest border crossing between Canada and the United States.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Rothman on November 30, 2020, 10:21:37 PM
Quote from: GaryV on November 30, 2020, 06:10:19 PM
Many places around Detroit could use more lanes.  I can't think of any that could be reduced.  At off-peak times the capacity isn't fully used, but it sure clogs up during those peaks.
I don't know.  They were able to fully close I-96 for reconstruction relatively recently.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: CtrlAltDel on November 30, 2020, 10:41:12 PM
I-26 south (or if you prefer, east) of the North Carolina/Tennessee border is 6 lanes with an AADT of 12,000, which seems on the low side.

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on November 29, 2020, 02:13:53 AM
I-65 in KY.  I-75 in GA.  I-95 in FL.

How so?

Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: US 89 on November 30, 2020, 10:50:17 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on November 29, 2020, 02:13:53 AM
I-65 in KY.  I-75 in GA.  I-95 in FL.

As somebody with personal experience on I-75 in Georgia, that absolutely needs its six lanes.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on December 01, 2020, 02:03:07 AM
The only one that "could" work is I-475 through Flint.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Flint1979 on December 01, 2020, 07:56:42 AM
Quote from: Rothman on November 30, 2020, 10:21:37 PM
Quote from: GaryV on November 30, 2020, 06:10:19 PM
Many places around Detroit could use more lanes.  I can't think of any that could be reduced.  At off-peak times the capacity isn't fully used, but it sure clogs up during those peaks.
I don't know.  They were able to fully close I-96 for reconstruction relatively recently.
They also had I-75 coming into the city from the south closed for a couple of years recently.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Flint1979 on December 01, 2020, 07:57:30 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 30, 2020, 10:50:17 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on November 29, 2020, 02:13:53 AM
I-65 in KY.  I-75 in GA.  I-95 in FL.

As somebody with personal experience on I-75 in Georgia, that absolutely needs its six lanes.
No question I-75 needs to be six lanes in Georgia. Heck in some areas it could even be eight lanes.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: webny99 on December 01, 2020, 09:09:10 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 01, 2020, 07:57:30 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 30, 2020, 10:50:17 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on November 29, 2020, 02:13:53 AM
I-65 in KY.  I-75 in GA.  I-95 in FL.
As somebody with personal experience on I-75 in Georgia, that absolutely needs its six lanes.
No question I-75 needs to be six lanes in Georgia. Heck in some areas it could even be eight lanes.

No one is disputing that it needs at least six lanes from the Tennessee line to at least Macon.
Once you get south of Macon, however, four lanes could work, at least in the sense that many other roads nationwide with similar volumes (the Thruway in NY, parts of I-81 and I-78 in PA, etc.) have just four lanes and are not being seriously considered for widening.

If the question is "Should I-75 in Georgia should be reduced to four lanes?", then the answer is definitely No.
If the question is "Would I-75 south of Macon function reasonably well with four lanes?" the answer is probably Yes.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 01, 2020, 09:19:34 AM
Quote from: webny99 on December 01, 2020, 09:09:10 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 01, 2020, 07:57:30 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 30, 2020, 10:50:17 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on November 29, 2020, 02:13:53 AM
I-65 in KY.  I-75 in GA.  I-95 in FL.
As somebody with personal experience on I-75 in Georgia, that absolutely needs its six lanes.
No question I-75 needs to be six lanes in Georgia. Heck in some areas it could even be eight lanes.

No one is disputing that it needs at least six lanes from the Tennessee line to at least Macon.
Once you get south of Macon, however, four lanes could work, at least in the sense that many other roads nationwide with similar volumes (the Thruway in NY, parts of I-81 and I-78 in PA, etc.) have just four lanes and are not being seriously considered for widening.

If the question is "Should I-75 in Georgia should be reduced to four lanes?", then the answer is definitely No.
If the question is "Would I-75 south of Macon function reasonably well with four lanes?" the answer is probably Yes.

Would you also be in favor of reducing the speed limit to 65 mph on a 4 lane I-75 in Georgia? If you're comparing volumes to a 4 lane 78/81 in PA/NY, you would need to compare the speed limit as well.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Ketchup99 on December 01, 2020, 11:22:53 AM
I can't think of any in Pennsylvania - so few roads have six lanes to begin with. Certainly there are parts of I-80 in western NJ that have 6-8 lanes that could be would in Pennsylvania, but I'm not sure that's NJ's problem.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: webny99 on December 01, 2020, 11:24:17 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 01, 2020, 09:19:34 AM
Would you also be in favor of reducing the speed limit to 65 mph on a 4 lane I-75 in Georgia? If you're comparing volumes to a 4 lane 78/81 in PA/NY, you would need to compare the speed limit as well.

I'm not sure I see the relevance of the speed limit. But in any case, no, I would never advocate for a lower speed limit unless there was a legitimate safety concern.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Ketchup99 on December 01, 2020, 11:31:35 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 01, 2020, 09:19:34 AM
Quote from: webny99 on December 01, 2020, 09:09:10 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 01, 2020, 07:57:30 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 30, 2020, 10:50:17 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on November 29, 2020, 02:13:53 AM
I-65 in KY.  I-75 in GA.  I-95 in FL.
As somebody with personal experience on I-75 in Georgia, that absolutely needs its six lanes.
No question I-75 needs to be six lanes in Georgia. Heck in some areas it could even be eight lanes.

No one is disputing that it needs at least six lanes from the Tennessee line to at least Macon.
Once you get south of Macon, however, four lanes could work, at least in the sense that many other roads nationwide with similar volumes (the Thruway in NY, parts of I-81 and I-78 in PA, etc.) have just four lanes and are not being seriously considered for widening.

If the question is "Should I-75 in Georgia should be reduced to four lanes?", then the answer is definitely No.
If the question is "Would I-75 south of Macon function reasonably well with four lanes?" the answer is probably Yes.

Would you also be in favor of reducing the speed limit to 65 mph on a 4 lane I-75 in Georgia? If you're comparing volumes to a 4 lane 78/81 in PA/NY, you would need to compare the speed limit as well.
I think the issue here is that I-78 has very substandard geometry in places, and anyways, much of I-81 should most definitely be 70, even with existing traffic volumes. I-75 in Georgia is not saddled with poor geometry or a low-speed-limit DOT in the same way.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: I-55 on December 01, 2020, 12:35:20 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 01, 2020, 07:57:30 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 30, 2020, 10:50:17 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on November 29, 2020, 02:13:53 AM
I-65 in KY.  I-75 in GA.  I-95 in FL.

As somebody with personal experience on I-75 in Georgia, that absolutely needs its six lanes.
No question I-75 needs to be six lanes in Georgia. Heck in some areas it could even be eight lanes.

During any sort of holiday/vacation travel period I-65 is packed, if anything it needs the 6 lane extended into IN and TN (which has recently begun in both states). I-75 needs to be 6 lanes for hurricane evacuation as well as normal traffic days. I don't have as much experience on I-95 but I would imagine in FL it would follow the same justification as I-75.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: ftballfan on December 01, 2020, 04:15:26 PM
Quote from: I-55 on December 01, 2020, 12:35:20 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 01, 2020, 07:57:30 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 30, 2020, 10:50:17 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on November 29, 2020, 02:13:53 AM
I-65 in KY.  I-75 in GA.  I-95 in FL.

As somebody with personal experience on I-75 in Georgia, that absolutely needs its six lanes.
No question I-75 needs to be six lanes in Georgia. Heck in some areas it could even be eight lanes.

During any sort of holiday/vacation travel period I-65 is packed, if anything it needs the 6 lane extended into IN and TN (which has recently begun in both states). I-75 needs to be 6 lanes for hurricane evacuation as well as normal traffic days. I don't have as much experience on I-95 but I would imagine in FL it would follow the same justification as I-75.
The last time I was on I-65 in Indiana in mid-March, they were 6-laning parts of it between Indy and Louisville (which it needed years ago).
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 01, 2020, 05:21:29 PM
Quote from: Ketchup99 on December 01, 2020, 11:31:35 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 01, 2020, 09:19:34 AM
Quote from: webny99 on December 01, 2020, 09:09:10 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on December 01, 2020, 07:57:30 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 30, 2020, 10:50:17 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on November 29, 2020, 02:13:53 AM
I-65 in KY.  I-75 in GA.  I-95 in FL.
As somebody with personal experience on I-75 in Georgia, that absolutely needs its six lanes.
No question I-75 needs to be six lanes in Georgia. Heck in some areas it could even be eight lanes.

No one is disputing that it needs at least six lanes from the Tennessee line to at least Macon.
Once you get south of Macon, however, four lanes could work, at least in the sense that many other roads nationwide with similar volumes (the Thruway in NY, parts of I-81 and I-78 in PA, etc.) have just four lanes and are not being seriously considered for widening.

If the question is "Should I-75 in Georgia should be reduced to four lanes?", then the answer is definitely No.
If the question is "Would I-75 south of Macon function reasonably well with four lanes?" the answer is probably Yes.

Would you also be in favor of reducing the speed limit to 65 mph on a 4 lane I-75 in Georgia? If you're comparing volumes to a 4 lane 78/81 in PA/NY, you would need to compare the speed limit as well.
I think the issue here is that I-78 has very substandard geometry in places, and anyways, much of I-81 should most definitely be 70, even with existing traffic volumes. I-75 in Georgia is not saddled with poor geometry or a low-speed-limit DOT in the same way.

Traffic volumes are a consideration as well when it comes to speed limits.

If you're taking the volume of traffic on a 6 lane roadway, and pushing that volume of traffic on a 4 lane roadway, it absolutely has a significant effect on what the speed limit should be.

A more appropriate comparison would be an in-state comparison.  Do the traffic volumes on the 4 lane sections of I-20 in GA compare similarly to the 6 lane sections of I-75 in GA?  If there's more traffic on I-75, would the thresholds that permit 70 mph on a 6 lane roadway remain true if it was to be narrowed to a 4 lane I-75?

It is also a bit funny that there's a comparison to 2 other highways because they have similar traffic volumes (citation needed), but once the speed limit was brought into the equation, suddenly the comparison isn't comparable.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Big John on December 01, 2020, 05:32:31 PM
The speed limit is supposed be the 85th prevailing percentile of traffic speed (rounded to the x5 or x0).  But the reality is the local speed limit are usually lower to extremely lower and  they use law enforcement to lower the speed to the low number.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: webny99 on December 01, 2020, 09:11:34 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 01, 2020, 05:21:29 PM
It is also a bit funny that there's a comparison to 2 other highways because they have similar traffic volumes (citation needed), but once the speed limit was brought into the equation, suddenly the comparison isn't comparable.

Guessing this is being addressed to me: I-78 in PA generally has an AADT of between 35K and 50K between I-81 and Allentown, and even higher east of there. I-81 in PA has volumes well above 40K from the Maryland line to Harrisburg, and the section north of Scranton is also very comparable. I checked several points for I-75 south of Macon, and they're generally in that range (http://geocounts.com/traffic/us/gdot).

As for the point about the comparison no longer being comparable, I'm not arguing that at all. I'm just saying that whether or not a highway needs to be widened should be based on the volumes, while the speed limit should be set based on the overall design, geometry, etc.
In other words, if 40K is your established threshold for widening, then I-81 from the MD line to Harrisburg should be widened period. Whether the speed limit is 55 mph or 80 mph is a non-factor.

Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Roadgeekteen on December 01, 2020, 09:58:08 PM
I think there are some super wide highways in Burma (easier to spell) and North Korea that get little use but I might be wrong.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: hotdogPi on December 01, 2020, 09:59:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 01, 2020, 09:58:08 PM
I think there are some super wide highways in Burma (easier to spell) and North Korea that get little use but I might be wrong.

How hard is it to spell Myanmar?
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Flint1979 on December 01, 2020, 10:37:12 PM
Quote from: Great Lakes Roads on December 01, 2020, 02:03:07 AM
The only one that "could" work is I-475 through Flint.
How would that work? I-475 is an alternate route for I-75 and gets around 60,000 VPD.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Roadgeekteen on December 01, 2020, 10:47:10 PM
Quote from: 1 on December 01, 2020, 09:59:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 01, 2020, 09:58:08 PM
I think there are some super wide highways in Burma (easier to spell) and North Korea that get little use but I might be wrong.

How hard is it to spell Myanmar?
Both are correct so I used the easier one to spell.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Rothman on December 01, 2020, 11:59:38 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 01, 2020, 10:47:10 PM
Quote from: 1 on December 01, 2020, 09:59:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 01, 2020, 09:58:08 PM
I think there are some super wide highways in Burma (easier to spell) and North Korea that get little use but I might be wrong.

How hard is it to spell Myanmar?
Both are correct so I used the easier one to spell.
Myanmar is correct.  Burma is not.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: kphoger on December 02, 2020, 10:55:32 AM
Quote from: Rothman on December 01, 2020, 11:59:38 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 01, 2020, 10:47:10 PM

Quote from: 1 on December 01, 2020, 09:59:29 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 01, 2020, 09:58:08 PM
I think there are some super wide highways in Burma (easier to spell) and North Korea that get little use but I might be wrong.

How hard is it to spell Myanmar?

Both are correct so I used the easier one to spell.

Myanmar is correct.  Burma is not.

Depends who you ask.  Last I knew, the US government still officially refers to the nation as 'Burma'.  On purpose.
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Dirt Roads on December 02, 2020, 01:57:11 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 01, 2020, 09:58:08 PM
I think there are some super wide highways in Burma (easier to spell) and North Korea that get little use but I might be wrong.

Quote from: 1 on December 01, 2020, 09:59:29 PM
How hard is it to spell Myanmar?

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on December 01, 2020, 10:47:10 PM
Both are correct so I used the easier one to spell.

Quote from: Rothman on December 01, 2020, 11:59:38 PM
Myanmar is correct.  Burma is not.

Quote from: kphoger on December 02, 2020, 10:55:32 AM
Depends who you ask.  Last I knew, the US government still officially refers to the nation as 'Burma'.  On purpose.

And sadly, a number of friends who are refugees from that county still say they are from Burma and are offended by the name Myanmar. 
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Flint1979 on December 02, 2020, 04:06:12 PM
I certainly think that I-75 between Dayton and Toledo is a strong contender for needing more than two lanes in each direction. I just spent the better part of 20 minutes about 10 mi North of tipp City fighting with semi truck after semi truck after semi truck it's ridiculous how much the semi trucks clog up the interstate highway system
Title: Re: Six or more lane highways that could work as four laners
Post by: Flint1979 on December 02, 2020, 04:10:07 PM
And here's a prime example of my previous post. I have an SUV in front of me with a row semi trucks in the right lane the SUV is doing the same speed as the semi trucks. And there's nothing in front of the SUV a semi truck just hopped in front of the SUV now we're doing 62 mph. don't tell me that any part of I-75 between Michigan and Florida needs anything under three lanes in each direction.