Poll
Question:
Does US-412, 64 and 56 enter Texas if the righ-of-way does?
Option 1: Yes it enters if the right-of-way does
votes: 7
Option 2: No, it doesn’t since the pavement never enters Texas
votes: 18
Since the Northwest corner of the Texas Panhandle monument is mere feet away from the pavement of US-412, US-64 and US-56, technically the road's right-of-way is in the state of Texas, despite the pavement never entering the state. Do you think it enters Texas or not?
Side note, are there other examples of roads coming this close to entering a state, yet the traveler on the road wouldn't enter the state unless they dropped their burrito and accidently swerved off the pavement?
Probably not. Likewise LA-1 / TX-49 at the state line does the same thing, no one seems to think HWY1 is ever in Arkansas.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 04, 2021, 05:23:25 PM
Since the Northwest corner of the Texas Panhandle monument is mere feet away from the pavement of US-412, US-64 and US-56, technically the road's right-of-way is in the state of Texas, despite the pavement never entering the state. Do you think it enters Texas or not?
Side note, are there other examples of roads coming this close to entering a state, yet the traveler on the road wouldn't enter the state unless they dropped their burrito and accidently swerved off the pavement?
Kind of like where Interstate 84 misses New Jersey by a few feet as it crosses the Delaware River between New York and Pennsylvania.
Does Ida Avenue in Texarkana count?
I was expecting a poll at the top..
If there was one, I would vote no. I can't seem to find any reference to the routes on TXDOT's website. There is also a marker where the northwest corner of the state is, though almost none of the images on Google Maps feature US 64 itself. The only thing I saw of US 64 in the images was a sign in the corner of the image, leaving me to believe that the road itself does not enter the state.
Quote from: ozarkman417 on January 04, 2021, 06:45:53 PM
I was expecting a poll at the top..
If there's a correct answer, it's called a quiz.
Quote from: ozarkman417 on January 04, 2021, 06:45:53 PM
If there was one, I would vote no. I can't seem to find any reference to the routes on TXDOT's website. There is also a marker where the northwest corner of the state is, though almost none of the images on Google Maps feature US 64 itself. The only thing I saw of US 64 in the images was a sign in the corner of the image, leaving me to believe that the road itself does not enter the state.
It is established fact that the pavement does not enter the state. The OP was asking about the ROW.
The actual corner is about three feet away from the pavement (https://www.markjamesmullins.com/nwtxcorner.html), so the ROW certainly enters TX. But Texas does not maintain any of the road.
Quote from: abqtraveler on January 04, 2021, 06:04:54 PM
Kind of like where Interstate 84 misses New Jersey by a few feet as it crosses the Delaware River between New York and Pennsylvania.
Does it miss, though? It's reasonably clear that the road doesn't hit New Jersey on land, but that part over the middle of the river very much seems to, given the angle of the border at that point.
(https://i.imgur.com/L5OzLUO.png) (https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/41.35749/-74.69507)
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 04, 2021, 07:13:51 PM
Quote from: abqtraveler on January 04, 2021, 06:04:54 PM
Kind of like where Interstate 84 misses New Jersey by a few feet as it crosses the Delaware River between New York and Pennsylvania.
Does it miss, though? It's reasonably clear that the road doesn't hit New Jersey on land, but that part over the middle of the river very much seems to, given the angle of the border at that point.
Boundaries on online maps are often inaccurate. If you check the USGS topo, you can see that I-84 does indeed miss NJ.
I-84 misses NJ by about 40 feet. The tripoint is marked here (https://goo.gl/maps/cxqMs6or1g6v7R4n7). Don't trust OSM boundaries.
OSM boundaries are approximations that are sometimes so bad they're not even helpful. Take, for example, the county boundaries near Guardsman Pass in the mountains east of Salt Lake City:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/40.60732/-111.55560
The Salt Lake/Wasatch county line passes directly through Guardsman Pass, which is at that southern bend on the road and is also where Utah 190 ends. Yet OSM's rough county line approximation crosses the road several hundred feet west of the actual line.
Thanks for the clarifications. Now that I look more closely, that Tri-State monument is a bit of a giveaway.
It's more curiosity on how people view the definition. As a surveyor, I have to say it enters since the right of way does, and right-of-way is the whole road, not just the pavement. Whether Texas maintains it or not is irrelevant, the right-of-way is on Texas soil.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 04, 2021, 09:13:19 PM
It's more curiosity on how people view the definition. As a surveyor, I have to say it enters since the right of way does, and right-of-way is the whole road, not just the pavement. Whether Texas maintains it or not is irrelevant, the right-of-way is on Texas soil.
But your car doesn't pass into the state. If my body doesn't cross the boundary, I haven't been there.
This is also another one where the witness marker is mistaken for the actual corner.
Quote from: Rothman on January 04, 2021, 09:30:19 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 04, 2021, 09:13:19 PM
It’s more curiosity on how people view the definition. As a surveyor, I have to say it enters since the right of way does, and right-of-way is the whole road, not just the pavement. Whether Texas maintains it or not is irrelevant, the right-of-way is on Texas soil.
But your car doesn't pass into the state. If my body doesn't cross the boundary, I haven't been there.
This is also another one where the witness marker is mistaken for the actual corner.
The question is not if the driver crosses into the state, it’s whether the road does. I also want to know if people define the road as the pavement or the entire right-of-way.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 04, 2021, 09:33:05 PM
Quote from: Rothman on January 04, 2021, 09:30:19 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 04, 2021, 09:13:19 PM
It's more curiosity on how people view the definition. As a surveyor, I have to say it enters since the right of way does, and right-of-way is the whole road, not just the pavement. Whether Texas maintains it or not is irrelevant, the right-of-way is on Texas soil.
But your car doesn't pass into the state. If my body doesn't cross the boundary, I haven't been there.
This is also another one where the witness marker is mistaken for the actual corner.
The question is not if the driver crosses into the state, it's weighed the road does. I also want to know if people define the road as the pavement or the entire right-of-way.
The thing is that a lot of people who clinch states or counties ask this sort of thing. If you drive along the road, you don't go into TX and therefore have clinched neither.
That said, even DOTs refer to the ROW separate from the road itself when discussing projects (i.e., the "road" is the pavement; ROW is the full extent of property needed to accomodate the road). ROW acquisition is even its own separate FAP from other FAPs on a project for FHWA's purposes.
Quote from: kenarmy on January 04, 2021, 06:13:25 PM
Does Ida Avenue in Texarkana count?
I think you could ask that question about any street that ends at a borderline street. I do agree that the curve on S. State Line right there does make the question a little more valid about this particular intersection. By the way, Google Maps makes the state line look crooked, it runs DUE North and South in a single line segment from a point on the Sabine River north of JoaquÃn TX to a point (Due north) on the Red River north of Texarkana.
It is nearly the same question as does I-49 ever get to Texas? (YES) Is US71 ever COMPLETELY in Texas (Yes)
I think tri-state junctions are particularly what this thread is discussing.
I view it from my engineering and surveying perspective. The right-of-way is the "road" and the pavement location is distinct from that. Soif the public right-of-way goes into Texas, the road goes into Texas.
Quote from: zzcarp on January 04, 2021, 11:44:54 PM
I view it from my engineering and surveying perspective. The right-of-way is the "road" and the pavement location is distinct from that. Soif the public right-of-way goes into Texas, the road goes into Texas.
So, that would be backwards from the typical usage at NYSDOT.
Quote from: bwana39 on January 04, 2021, 10:40:29 PM
Quote from: kenarmy on January 04, 2021, 06:13:25 PM
Does Ida Avenue in Texarkana count?
I think you could ask that question about any street that ends at a borderline street. I do agree that the curve on S. State Line right there does make the question a little more valid about this particular intersection. By the way, Google Maps makes the state line look crooked, it runs DUE North and South in a single line segment from a point on the Sabine River north of JoaquÃn TX to a point (Due north) on the Red River north of Texarkana.
It is nearly the same question as does I-49 ever get to Texas? (YES) Is US71 ever COMPLETELY in Texas (Yes)
I think tri-state junctions are particularly what this thread is discussing.
But US 56-64-412 at the closest point to the northwest corner of the Texas panhandle stays in New Mexico both west and north of Texas. The western border of the Oklahoma panhandle is slightly east (about 2.2 miles) of the western border of the Texas panhandle.
It is a part of Texas if it shows up on the property maps. If they widen the roads, part of the road surface would enter Texas as well.
Quote from: In_Correct on January 05, 2021, 02:22:09 AM
It is a part of Texas if it shows up on the property maps. If they widen the roads, part of the road surface would enter Texas as well.
Not if a second carriageway was built northwest of the existing road.
I wouldn't say the "road" enters Texas, even if the pavement enters it, unless the white shoulder stripe (and therefore the eastbound travel lane) does. That is, even if the shoulder enters Texas, I wouldn't consider the road to–only if someone using the road according to its legal markings had a portion of their vehicle cross the plane of the state line.
Thus, the one time I used this stretch of US 56 and friends, I didn't count myself as having clinched Dallam County, TX–until, of course, I entered it on US-385 an hour or so later.
Say I own a piece of property that straddles the Utah-Nevada boundary, located mostly in Utah but with a small portion on the Nevada side. If I build my house entirely on the Utah side of the state line, do I live in Nevada?
Same deal with the highway. As far as I'm concerned, those US routes do not enter Texas. Nobody traveling on them will cross the actual line.
Question: If US 56/64/412 is in TX, how would I go about clinching those routes in that state? No matter what, it would involve leaving the pavement in NM.
Speaking of map inaccuracies, Google has the NW corner of Texas on the road's shoulder, while OSM is a little bit more accurate with that particular boundary.
So, some history here (compiled from some discussion in chat) that explains just why the ROW clips the corner of Texas as it does. One might reasonably ask "couldn't they have just built the road a few feet further north and avoided complicating things?"
Well, look at this 1940 Census map of Union County NM: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/5835420
On page 2, you can see that the road which is now US 56/64/412 did not yet exist in 1940. However, you can see a railroad there, marked AT&SF. This railroad alignment is now long abandoned, but poke around satellite view and you can spot some clear remnants of it (for example, these bridge abutments) (https://goo.gl/maps/3GdRo2dqYTbGKSVK9) which make it clear the road was built to the south of the railroad. The railroad, which was there first, cleanly avoided Texas, but when it came time to build a road next to it, well, there wasn't quite enough room to keep the ROW from clipping the corner.
Now the question was also raised, is there actually a triangle in the corner of Texas that is part of the ROW, or does the public ROW simply have a notch in it?
According to Dallam County TX's online property tax map: https://www.dallamcad.org/interactive-map/
Yes, there is a triangle in the corner that is not part of the northwesternmost parcel.
As for the original question, I am going to say no, US 56/64/412 does not enter Texas. It is a true statement that part of the ROW for US 56/64/412 is in Texas... but none of the road itself is. Only a piece of the clear zone is. Anyone standing there would say they are standing next to US 56/64/412, not on it.
Quote from: Duke87 on January 06, 2021, 02:08:51 AM
So, some history here (compiled from some discussion in chat) that explains just why the ROW clips the corner of Texas as it does. One might reasonably ask "couldn't they have just built the road a few feet further north and avoided complicating things?"
Well, look at this 1940 Census map of Union County NM: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/5835420
On page 2, you can see that the road which is now US 56/64/412 did not yet exist in 1940. However, you can see a railroad there, marked AT&SF. This railroad alignment is now long abandoned, but poke around satellite view and you can spot some clear remnants of it (for example, these bridge abutments) (https://goo.gl/maps/3GdRo2dqYTbGKSVK9) which make it clear the road was built to the south of the railroad. The railroad, which was there first, cleanly avoided Texas, but when it came time to build a road next to it, well, there wasn't quite enough room to keep the ROW from clipping the corner.
Now the question was also raised, is there actually a triangle in the corner of Texas that is part of the ROW, or does the public ROW simply have a notch in it?
According to Dallam County TX's online property tax map: https://www.dallamcad.org/interactive-map/
Yes, there is a triangle in the corner that is not part of the northwesternmost parcel.
As for the original question, I am going to say no, US 56/64/412 does not enter Texas. It is a true statement that part of the ROW for US 56/64/412 is in Texas... but none of the road itself is. Only a piece of the clear zone is. Anyone standing there would say they are standing next to US 56/64/412, not on it.
I wonder, based on that tax map, did Texas give New Mexico that little notch for construction of the road, so that NM would have clear title and Texas would not have to be responsible for anything having to do with it?
It comes about 10 feet from the state line but never enters the state.
Quote from: US 89 on January 05, 2021, 07:51:23 PM
Say I own a piece of property that straddles the Utah-Nevada boundary, located mostly in Utah but with a small portion on the Nevada side. If I build my house entirely on the Utah side of the state line, do I live in Nevada?
Same deal with the highway. As far as I'm concerned, those US routes do not enter Texas. Nobody traveling on them will cross the actual line.
For purposes of your legal address, your state/county/municipality of residence is dependent on where the "main entrance" to the housing unit is located.
For purposes of enforcement of laws, each section of the property would have separate jurisdiction.
Quote from: Duke87 on January 06, 2021, 02:08:51 AM
This railroad alignment is now long abandoned, but poke around satellite view and you can spot some clear remnants of it (for example, these bridge abutments) (https://goo.gl/maps/3GdRo2dqYTbGKSVK9)
The abandoned grade is even more obvious on street view:
https://goo.gl/maps/ZAcbF2DkL9ge2vb66
https://goo.gl/maps/rL5wBoViuCtKVsHf8
Quote from: GreenLanternCorps on January 06, 2021, 10:04:03 AM
I wonder, based on that tax map, did Texas give New Mexico that little notch for construction of the road, so that NM would have clear title and Texas would not have to be responsible for anything having to do with it?
I wondered the same thing. Unfortunately, Union County NM doesn't make a nice interactive tax map (that I could find, at least)...
I could be wrong but doesn't the Constitution require Congress to sign off on any state boundary adjustments?
Quote from: US 89 on January 06, 2021, 11:50:37 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 06, 2021, 02:08:51 AM
This railroad alignment is now long abandoned, but poke around satellite view and you can spot some clear remnants of it (for example, these bridge abutments) (https://goo.gl/maps/3GdRo2dqYTbGKSVK9)
The abandoned grade is even more obvious on street view:
https://goo.gl/maps/ZAcbF2DkL9ge2vb66
https://goo.gl/maps/rL5wBoViuCtKVsHf8
Quote from: GreenLanternCorps on January 06, 2021, 10:04:03 AM
I wonder, based on that tax map, did Texas give New Mexico that little notch for construction of the road, so that NM would have clear title and Texas would not have to be responsible for anything having to do with it?
I wondered the same thing. Unfortunately, Union County NM doesn't make a nice interactive tax map (that I could find, at least)...
I could be wrong but doesn't the Constitution require Congress to sign off on any state boundary adjustments?
The state boundary isn't different. Just think of it as New Mexico, the state, is a person that bought land in Texas. So one state owns property in another state.
Quote from: US 89 on January 06, 2021, 11:50:37 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on January 06, 2021, 02:08:51 AM
This railroad alignment is now long abandoned, but poke around satellite view and you can spot some clear remnants of it (for example, these bridge abutments) (https://goo.gl/maps/3GdRo2dqYTbGKSVK9)
The abandoned grade is even more obvious on street view:
https://goo.gl/maps/ZAcbF2DkL9ge2vb66
https://goo.gl/maps/rL5wBoViuCtKVsHf8
Quote from: GreenLanternCorps on January 06, 2021, 10:04:03 AM
I wonder, based on that tax map, did Texas give New Mexico that little notch for construction of the road, so that NM would have clear title and Texas would not have to be responsible for anything having to do with it?
I wondered the same thing. Unfortunately, Union County NM doesn't make a nice interactive tax map (that I could find, at least)...
I could be wrong but doesn't the Constitution require Congress to sign off on any state boundary adjustments?
Yes, and I believe the legislatures of each affected state has to approve boundary adjustments as well.
If there's not a tchotchke souvenir shop at that point where I can buy a Texas magnet, then No.