On a trip to Wikipedia to research the California postmile system (because I don't understand it), I learned that three freeways, SR-14, SR-58 and SR-180 have been a testing ground for posting a traditional mile marker system. A trip to google maps for investigation turned up nothing (most recent street view was 2019). Does anyone know of these test mile markers in the field? Does anyone have any evidence? Also, since it was very specifically pointed out that the system was different than the postmile system, I was asuming the mile markers would be MUTCD standard ones.
There for sure a bunch of mile markers on CA 17 in the Santa Cruz Mountains. There is plenty of photos that made it online in Facebook groups which I recall seeing recently.
We already have a discussion about this on this forum at...
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=27944.0
There are a few photos of the mileposts plus some concept drawings I created to address the fact that the mileage posted are for the route's mileage within Santa Clara county rather than for the entire route.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 20, 2021, 03:48:32 PM
On a trip to Wikipedia to research the California postmile system (because I don't understand it), I learned that three freeways, SR-14, SR-58 and SR-180 have been a testing ground for posting a traditional mile marker system. A trip to google maps for investigation turned up nothing (most recent street view was 2019). Does anyone know of these test mile markers in the field? Does anyone have any evidence? Also, since it was very specifically pointed out that the system was different than the postmile system, I was asuming the mile markers would be MUTCD standard ones.
Note: If you want to understand the numbering -- all aspects -- of highways in California, take a look at my numbering page: https://www.cahighways.org/numberng.html
Daniel
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 20, 2021, 05:28:04 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 20, 2021, 03:48:32 PM
On a trip to Wikipedia to research the California postmile system (because I don't understand it), I learned that three freeways, SR-14, SR-58 and SR-180 have been a testing ground for posting a traditional mile marker system. A trip to google maps for investigation turned up nothing (most recent street view was 2019). Does anyone know of these test mile markers in the field? Does anyone have any evidence? Also, since it was very specifically pointed out that the system was different than the postmile system, I was asuming the mile markers would be MUTCD standard ones.
Note: If you want to understand the numbering -- all aspects -- of highways in California, take a look at my numbering page: https://www.cahighways.org/numberng.html
Daniel
I have visited it. It makes sense, yes, but just feels overly complicated for the sake of being complicated. In Texas, we have the reference mile system, which I think is stupid. I also feel like its complicated just to be complicated.
I don't think it is complicated to be complicated. I think it is there due to inertia. The postmile system is older, dating to the days before computers when it was easier to keep track of things within a county, especially in a large state (people forget the size of California, compared to some of the states with mileposts). With it already in place, there was no strong need to change it when mileposts came in, as it suited the Division of Highways, and later Caltrans', needs. There was no justification for the cost.
We tend to look at things from the point of view of the driver. But most of the driving public doesn't care about mileposts or postmiles. Caltrans cares about them, but only to locate and reference things on the highways for construction or maintenance. So why spend a lot of funds to change a system when the current system is working, especially when those funds are really needed elsewhere. The same goes for highway numbering. We may care about it as roadgeeks, but it doesn't make a difference to the state, and most of the driving public doesn't think about it as long as their GPS gets them where they are going.
That's why, in my pages, I strive to understand what is being done without opining. As one who works with government in the real world, they often have their reasons for doing things that are unfathomable to the general public, but make perfect sense once you understand government. If you don't believe me, try looking up the phrase "color of money" in an acquisition context.
Daniel
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 20, 2021, 05:30:44 PM
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 20, 2021, 05:28:04 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 20, 2021, 03:48:32 PM
On a trip to Wikipedia to research the California postmile system (because I don't understand it), I learned that three freeways, SR-14, SR-58 and SR-180 have been a testing ground for posting a traditional mile marker system. A trip to google maps for investigation turned up nothing (most recent street view was 2019). Does anyone know of these test mile markers in the field? Does anyone have any evidence? Also, since it was very specifically pointed out that the system was different than the postmile system, I was asuming the mile markers would be MUTCD standard ones.
Note: If you want to understand the numbering -- all aspects -- of highways in California, take a look at my numbering page: https://www.cahighways.org/numberng.html
Daniel
I have visited it. It makes sense, yes, but just feels overly complicated for the sake of being complicated. In Texas, we have the reference mile system, which I think is stupid. I also feel like its complicated just to be complicated.
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 20, 2021, 06:18:46 PM
But most of the driving public doesn't care about mileposts or postmiles. ... The same goes for highway numbering. We may care about it as roadgeeks, but it doesn't make a difference to the state, and most of the driving public doesn't think about it as long as their GPS gets them where they are going.
As for the general driving public... Really, the only time a driver needs to know a mile marker, it's for one of two reasons: (1) following directions that refer to one or (2) identifying a location while calling emergency services. In both cases, it's just as easy to refer to a California postmile as it is to a "normal" mile marker. The number will be different, but that doesn't really matter for the task at hand.
And the same goes for route numbering. Route numbers exist to help guide drivers onto the correct road. The number 238 does that just as well as any x80–probably better, actually, as drivers are less likely to confuse 238 with an x80 as they are to confuse an x80 with a different x80. The only possible route numbering thing that might
really confuse drivers is two routes with the same number being in close proximity. And, even then, it's only a problem
if it's actually a problem.
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 10:59:30 AM
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 20, 2021, 06:18:46 PM
But most of the driving public doesn't care about mileposts or postmiles. ... The same goes for highway numbering. We may care about it as roadgeeks, but it doesn't make a difference to the state, and most of the driving public doesn't think about it as long as their GPS gets them where they are going.
As for the general driving public... Really, the only time a driver needs to know a mile marker, it's for one of two reasons: (1) following directions that refer to one or (2) identifying a location while calling emergency services. In both cases, it's just as easy to refer to a California postmile as it is to a "normal" mile marker. The number will be different, but that doesn't really matter for the task at hand.
And the same goes for route numbering. Route numbers exist to help guide drivers onto the correct road. The number 238 does that just as well as any x80–probably better, actually, as drivers are less likely to confuse 238 with an x80 as they are to confuse an x80 with a different x80. The only possible route numbering thing that might really confuse drivers is two routes with the same number being in close proximity. And, even then, it's only a problem if it's actually a problem.
The thing I would note with mileage on Postmiles is that as a driver it really isn't super handy in terms of gauging distance unless you know how far your way point is or are familiar with the general mileage or the County you're in. The Postmiles reset in every County as opposed to having a state wide overall mileage.
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 10:59:30 AM
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 20, 2021, 06:18:46 PM
But most of the driving public doesn't care about mileposts or postmiles. ... The same goes for highway numbering. We may care about it as roadgeeks, but it doesn't make a difference to the state, and most of the driving public doesn't think about it as long as their GPS gets them where they are going.
As for the general driving public... Really, the only time a driver needs to know a mile marker, it's for one of two reasons: (1) following directions that refer to one or (2) identifying a location while calling emergency services. In both cases, it's just as easy to refer to a California postmile as it is to a "normal" mile marker. The number will be different, but that doesn't really matter for the task at hand.
And the same goes for route numbering. Route numbers exist to help guide drivers onto the correct road. The number 238 does that just as well as any x80–probably better, actually, as drivers are less likely to confuse 238 with an x80 as they are to confuse an x80 with a different x80. The only possible route numbering thing that might really confuse drivers is two routes with the same number being in close proximity. And, even then, it's only a problem if it's actually a problem.
Not disagreeing, just playing devils advocate. The postmile marker system works fine in the instances you gave, but for someone from any of the other state in the US that is visiting California, the white postmiles might be very confusing because they are not the standard MUTCD white writing on a green field they are used to. To some motorists, they may think California highways have no mileposts. I thought that for a while, then learned about the postmile system and then attempted to figure it out. Most people aren't going to figure it out solely because the visuals of the system are different.
That being said, it makes sense that it was a pre-existing system so why not keep it. My rebuttal is and always is, I come from a state that's bigger than California and has more interstate mileage in it (plus one that is famous for having more exists, so more exits to renumber) and they renumbered their highways to conform to standards. Why can't they?
I would add one more use for mile markers. So you can have an instantaneous approximation to a landmark. This of course requires you to know at what mile post your landmark is at. Sometimes its a state line. I am traveling west on an even interstate, I just passed milepost 140 and I am traveling 70 miles an hour. I will be out of the state I am currently in in 2 hours. This is what I do when I drive, so not so sure the rest of the public does it as well, but that is a use.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2021, 11:13:22 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 10:59:30 AM
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 20, 2021, 06:18:46 PM
But most of the driving public doesn't care about mileposts or postmiles. ... The same goes for highway numbering. We may care about it as roadgeeks, but it doesn't make a difference to the state, and most of the driving public doesn't think about it as long as their GPS gets them where they are going.
As for the general driving public... Really, the only time a driver needs to know a mile marker, it's for one of two reasons: (1) following directions that refer to one or (2) identifying a location while calling emergency services. In both cases, it's just as easy to refer to a California postmile as it is to a "normal" mile marker. The number will be different, but that doesn't really matter for the task at hand.
And the same goes for route numbering. Route numbers exist to help guide drivers onto the correct road. The number 238 does that just as well as any x80–probably better, actually, as drivers are less likely to confuse 238 with an x80 as they are to confuse an x80 with a different x80. The only possible route numbering thing that might really confuse drivers is two routes with the same number being in close proximity. And, even then, it's only a problem if it's actually a problem.
The thing I would note with mileage on Postmiles is that as a driver it really isn't super handy in terms of gauging distance unless you know how far your way point is or are familiar with the general mileage or the County you're in. The Postmiles reset in every County as opposed to having a state wide overall mileage.
This is also my point. It's great for internal logging, yes, but for actually driving the road it could be a nightmare. Again, if you are in the county you live in, its great, but if you are from another state and are very sketchy at best on what county you are in, you really don't know how far you are from anything because you may not even know what county you are even in.
Well, postmiles do have a (generally logical) county code, and most county lines in California are signed. But I agree it's not necessarily obvious.
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on January 21, 2021, 11:22:06 AM
Well, postmiles do have a (generally logical) county code, and most county lines in California are signed. But I agree it's not necessarily obvious.
All county lines in Texas are marked. I still would be confused with mileposts that reset at every county, even in my home county. I am much more familiar with the distance across Texas than I am the distance across Hays County. It's strange to think about it because I have no clue the length of the shorter distance than the longer one, but a lot of that comes from jokes about Texas' size. "El Paso is closer to Los Angeles than Texarkana" Everyone here knows I-10 is 881 miles across Texas, but I have no idea how far it is across my county.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 21, 2021, 11:18:54 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2021, 11:13:22 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 10:59:30 AM
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 20, 2021, 06:18:46 PM
But most of the driving public doesn't care about mileposts or postmiles. ... The same goes for highway numbering. We may care about it as roadgeeks, but it doesn't make a difference to the state, and most of the driving public doesn't think about it as long as their GPS gets them where they are going.
As for the general driving public... Really, the only time a driver needs to know a mile marker, it's for one of two reasons: (1) following directions that refer to one or (2) identifying a location while calling emergency services. In both cases, it's just as easy to refer to a California postmile as it is to a "normal" mile marker. The number will be different, but that doesn't really matter for the task at hand.
And the same goes for route numbering. Route numbers exist to help guide drivers onto the correct road. The number 238 does that just as well as any x80–probably better, actually, as drivers are less likely to confuse 238 with an x80 as they are to confuse an x80 with a different x80. The only possible route numbering thing that might really confuse drivers is two routes with the same number being in close proximity. And, even then, it's only a problem if it's actually a problem.
The thing I would note with mileage on Postmiles is that as a driver it really isn't super handy in terms of gauging distance unless you know how far your way point is or are familiar with the general mileage or the County you're in. The Postmiles reset in every County as opposed to having a state wide overall mileage.
This is also my point. It's great for internal logging, yes, but for actually driving the road it could be a nightmare. Again, if you are in the county you live in, its great, but if you are from another state and are very sketchy at best on what county you are in, you really don't know how far you are from anything because you may not even know what county you are even in.
NDOT, which uses the same type of system, seems like it cares a bit more about drivers knowing about our mileposts (what Caltrans calls a postmile) for location purposes. They've been upgrading to much more visible county mileposts as they've done rehab projects on rural state & US routes over the last ~5 years. It does make things a bit easier because the new signs are very large and purposely visible, whereas older milepost signs tended to blend in.
That said, the system does make it hard to figure out locations on the fly unless you're really familiar with the route. Even most primary state highways go through two counties, so it's really hard to calculate distances based on a milepost unless you know how many miles there are in a county. (Although, even calculating distances between two points presumes you know the milepost landmarks to begin with.)
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2021, 11:13:22 AM
The thing I would note with mileage on Postmiles is that as a driver it really isn't super handy in terms of gauging distance unless you know how far your way point is or are familiar with the general mileage or the County you're in.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 21, 2021, 11:16:47 AM
I would add one more use for mile markers. So you can have an instantaneous approximation to a landmark. This of course requires you to know at what mile post your landmark is at. Sometimes its a state line. I am traveling west on an even interstate, I just passed milepost 140 and I am traveling 70 miles an hour. I will be out of the state I am currently in in 2 hours. This is what I do when I drive, so not so sure the rest of the public does it as well, but that is a use.
Quote from: roadfro on January 21, 2021, 11:58:09 AM
the system does make it hard to figure out locations on the fly unless you're really familiar with the route.
Yeah, those are great perks of a statewide mile marker system. But that's all they really are: perks. I, too, prefer driving in places that use such a system. With all the things I love about driving in Texas, I dislike the lack of standard mile markers on non-Interstate routes there. When I lived in Illinois, I wished its non-Interstate routes had standard mile markers. Driving in Kentucky, I wished non-Interstate routes there didn't reset their mile markers at every county line. But I can still get from A to B perfectly well in any of those states, even with the less-than-optimal systems they have. It doesn't actually affect my ability to get to where I'm going, follow directions, identify a location.
Quote from: roadfro on January 21, 2021, 11:58:09 AM
Even most primary state highways go through two counties, so it's really hard to calculate distances based on a milepost unless you know how many miles there are in a county. (Although, even calculating distances between two points presumes you know the milepost landmarks to begin with.)
And how many non-roadgeeks
both (1) know the mile marker of a certain place they're heading toward
and also (2) don't already have a good idea how far it is until they get there? About the only time people actually know the mile marker they're heading toward is when it's a numbered exit; in that case, they can still track their progress exit-by-exit, even if not milepost-by-milepost.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 21, 2021, 11:16:47 AM
for someone from any of the other state in the US that is visiting California, the white postmiles might be very confusing because they are not the standard MUTCD white writing on a green field they are used to. To some motorists, they may think California highways have no mileposts. I thought that for a while, then learned about the postmile system and then attempted to figure it out. Most people aren't going to figure it out solely because the visuals of the system are different.
But in what scenario will that matter?
Call to 9-1-1:
– I'd like to report an accident that just happened in front of me.
– What's your location?
– Highway ____
– What mile post?
– How do I know?
– Look up and down the road for a small white sign with a number on it.
–
Problem solved.Following directions, and the paper says to turn left shortly after mile post 9:
–
Notices small white signs with numbers that change every mile. Figures out they must somehow correspond.
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 12:56:55 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on January 21, 2021, 11:13:22 AM
The thing I would note with mileage on Postmiles is that as a driver it really isn't super handy in terms of gauging distance unless you know how far your way point is or are familiar with the general mileage or the County you're in.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 21, 2021, 11:16:47 AM
I would add one more use for mile markers. So you can have an instantaneous approximation to a landmark. This of course requires you to know at what mile post your landmark is at. Sometimes its a state line. I am traveling west on an even interstate, I just passed milepost 140 and I am traveling 70 miles an hour. I will be out of the state I am currently in in 2 hours. This is what I do when I drive, so not so sure the rest of the public does it as well, but that is a use.
Quote from: roadfro on January 21, 2021, 11:58:09 AM
the system does make it hard to figure out locations on the fly unless you're really familiar with the route.
Yeah, those are great perks of a statewide mile marker system. But that's all they really are: perks. I, too, prefer driving in places that use such a system. With all the things I love about driving in Texas, I dislike the lack of standard mile markers on non-Interstate routes there. When I lived in Illinois, I wished its non-Interstate routes had standard mile markers. Driving in Kentucky, I wished non-Interstate routes there didn't reset their mile markers at every county line. But I can still get from A to B perfectly well in any of those states, even with the less-than-optimal systems they have. It doesn't actually affect my ability to get to where I'm going, follow directions, identify a location.
Quote from: roadfro on January 21, 2021, 11:58:09 AM
Even most primary state highways go through two counties, so it's really hard to calculate distances based on a milepost unless you know how many miles there are in a county. (Although, even calculating distances between two points presumes you know the milepost landmarks to begin with.)
And how many non-roadgeeks both (1) know the mile marker of a certain place they're heading toward and also (2) don't already have a good idea how far it is until they get there? About the only time people actually know the mile marker they're heading toward is when it's a numbered exit; in that case, they can still track their progress exit-by-exit, even if not milepost-by-milepost.
You sometimes don't know when you are 4 hours into a 12 hour trip and your wife or kids ask "how much longer until we get to X?" Using mile posts I can give them a pretty good guess how much longer. Using the post mile system best I can say is "it's X miles until we leave whatever county this is. How far from that county line until our destination? Beats me."
Judging exit by exit doesn't work so well when you are in the Mojave Desert and haven't seen an exit for miles. By the time you want to know how much longer until you get to X landmark, its been long enough you cant remember the last exit number so you say, I have no clue.
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 12:56:55 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 21, 2021, 11:16:47 AM
for someone from any of the other state in the US that is visiting California, the white postmiles might be very confusing because they are not the standard MUTCD white writing on a green field they are used to. To some motorists, they may think California highways have no mileposts. I thought that for a while, then learned about the postmile system and then attempted to figure it out. Most people aren't going to figure it out solely because the visuals of the system are different.
But in what scenario will that matter?
Call to 9-1-1:
– I'd like to report an accident that just happened in front of me.
– What's your location?
– Highway ____
– What mile post?
– How do I know?
– Look up and down the road for a small white sign with a number on it.
– Problem solved.
Following directions, and the paper says to turn left shortly after mile post 9:
– Notices small white signs with numbers that change every mile. Figures out they must somehow correspond.
Most 911 dispatchers want addresses, not mile posts or directions. I have run into this many times helping people on the side of the road and giving directions like I would to people on this forum. (I am on the westbound lanes and I am about halfway between mile markers 140 and 141). They dismiss this.
Again, since the postmiles are small white paddles, it took me a long time to realize those paddles actually had something to do with the road. They are just very different from what I am used to, so personally, I easily ignored them, so I actually never realized they increased/decreased at all.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 21, 2021, 01:32:57 PM
You sometimes don't know when you are 4 hours into a 12 hour trip and your wife or kids ask "how much longer until we get to X?" Using mile posts I can give them a pretty good guess how much longer. Using the post mile system best I can say is "it's X miles until we leave whatever county this is. How far from that county line until our destination? Beats me."
I still don't know most of the time by mile markers.
If we're driving north out of Kansas City on I-35, and my wife asks how far until we cross into Iowa, I don't know the answer–mile markers or not. Do you know that I-35 leaves Missouri at MM-114? Well, if you do, then you're in the minority, and the DOT isn't making decisions with that in mind. I know it crosses the state line at MM-1something, but I can never remember what mile marker that is, and I've driven the stretch many times. Most people have no clue.
If we're driving east through Kansas on US-400 and eating lunch in Parsons, and my wife asks how much farther till lunch, I don't know the answer–mile markers or not. That's because I don't know what mile marker Parsons is at.
If we have to look at a map to figure out what exit something is at, then we're already looking at a piece of paper with distances marked on it anyway. If we're on a highway without exit numbers, then knowing our current mile marker is worthless without also knowing the mile marker of where we're going.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 21, 2021, 01:32:57 PM
Most 911 dispatchers want addresses, not mile posts or directions. I have run into this many times helping people on the side of the road and giving directions like I would to people on this forum. (I am on the westbound lanes and I am about halfway between mile markers 140 and 141). They dismiss this.
I've never had a 9-1-1 dispatch ask for an address, just a "location". I've always given them the name or number of a nearby crossroad or exit, such as "at 12th Street and Johnston City Blacktop" or "Interstate 135 southbound, near the 29th Street exit" or whatever. Never had a problem doing that, never once had to give a mile marker. (However, I've never had to place such a call outside of a town).
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 01:46:53 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 21, 2021, 01:32:57 PM
You sometimes don't know when you are 4 hours into a 12 hour trip and your wife or kids ask "how much longer until we get to X?" Using mile posts I can give them a pretty good guess how much longer. Using the post mile system best I can say is "it's X miles until we leave whatever county this is. How far from that county line until our destination? Beats me."
I still don't know most of the time by mile markers.
If we're driving north out of Kansas City on I-35, and my wife asks how far until we cross into Iowa, I don't know the answer–mile markers or not. Do you know that I-35 leaves Missouri at MM-114? Well, if you do, then you're in the minority, and the DOT isn't making decisions with that in mind. I know it crosses the state line at MM-1something, but I can never remember what mile marker that is, and I've driven the stretch many times. Most people have no clue.
If we're driving east through Kansas on US-400 and eating lunch in Parsons, and my wife asks how much farther till lunch, I don't know the answer–mile markers or not. That's because I don't know what mile marker Parsons is at.
If we have to look at a map to figure out what exit something is at, then we're already looking at a piece of paper with distances marked on it anyway. If we're on a highway without exit numbers, then knowing our current mile marker is worthless without also knowing the mile marker of where we're going.
I memorize that crap. I don't know why I do. Sometimes its not exact. I know if I am driving I-10 east to Florida, I-10 is 254 miles in Louisiana, 66 miles in Mississippi, 77 miles in Alabama (sometimes I have those backward) and 360 miles in Florida. These may be a little off, but they are close. Going west it is 164 miles in New Mexico, 394 miles in Arizona, and no clue (260 ish?) miles in California (again because there is not a state wide mile marker system). This, and because I tend to drive the same route a lot, I have this stuff down pretty close. I know Houston is at milepost 740 ish, Beaumont is at milepost 840 ish, Mobile is at milepost 23 ish and so on.
I mostly do this because doing the math keeps my mind sharp and keeps me from getting tired. A lot of time no one asks me, I just do the math. I live in Austin, at mile 235 on I-35 and I know mile 420 is just inside the I-20/I-35E intersection in Dallas, and mile 154 is at the I-37/I-35 intersection in San Antonio, which is mile 147 on I-37 and 0 is in downtown Corpus Christi. San Marcos is at mile 205 and New Braunfels is at mile 188 ish. Again, none of this is exact and I am going by memory, but its a good way to keep track of how much more time I have to drive.
Going west on I-10, Ft Stockton is at mile 260 ish, I-20/I-10 junction is at mile 184 ish and Van Horn is at mile 140 ish. This isn't because I am smart or anything. It's mainly because I have done the drive so many times. I use these as landmarks so when I start getting tired and can quickly calculate how much longer until I get to a town with a hotel so I can stop for the night and not kill my family.
I think part of it is because I take an extreme amount of 3-5 hour one way "day trips" that I am trying to get somewhere at a very specific time, so time is very critical in most of my driving. Also, I tend to drive that way on vacation as well. I stupidly try to pack too much into a vacation timeframe so I am always in a hurry. A lot of the time, I am checking if we are one schedule at a very random time, not when I conveniently have a mileage sign or an exit to reference. A lot of the time, millage sigs pass and I completely don't acknowledge them because I am zoned out. Five miles later, I want to do the math and don't have the sign to use.
I can say that most people, in states where exit numbers are more ingrained than CA, are aware of the exit number for their home exit, since they likely pass it by often. So at least if they are on the same highway, within their state, that gives them a good idea of how long till they reach home.
Quote from: mrsman on February 28, 2021, 08:45:28 PM
I can say that most people, in states where exit numbers are more ingrained than CA, are aware of the exit number for their home exit, since they likely pass it by often. So at least if they are on the same highway, within their state, that gives them a good idea of how long till they reach home.
For highways with exit numbers, yes. But not for at-grade highways.
So, for example, I couldn't tell you what mile marker of US-54/400 I live at. If I'm coming from Dodge City,
the mile markers along the way (https://goo.gl/maps/Wkgrx91pqXArNe7v6) don't do me any good. I
think there's a MM-222 somewhere on the east side of Wichita, but the only reason I know that is because the triple digits stuck out to me once.
I also suspect that most people in an urban area
don't actually know their exit number. I mean, heck, I don't think I could tell you a single exit number in Wichita, even though I'm a roadgeek and use an Interstate on my daily commute. I think Kellogg is somewhere around 5 or 6 of I-135, but I could be wrong. I suspect that most people in an urban area know that they live at the ______ Street exit, which is between the ______ Street and ______ Street exits–without having a clue what the corresponding exit numbers are. It's only in smaller towns that exit numbers take prominence in most people's navigational toolbox.
Quote from: mrsman on February 28, 2021, 08:45:28 PM
I can say that most people, in states where exit numbers are more ingrained than CA, are aware of the exit number for their home exit, since they likely pass it by often. So at least if they are on the same highway, within their state, that gives them a good idea of how long till they reach home.
I spent my entire life in the Midwest or SE Virginia before moving to Palm Springs in 2018. The rare times I thought about exit numbers was when it was handy for distance to a destination. I-55 in Illinois milepost numbers start in East St Louis and I lived in St Louis for 28 years; I'd use the mile markers when going home from Wisconsin to help estimate time and distance home. I-70 mileage starts in Kansas City, so I did the same thing when traveling there. I do the same thing here the rare times I drive to LA. (Hopefully, this changes once we can actually travel again.)
But it's only really useful when you're heading close to or just to the other side of a border southbound or westbound. Otherwise, the only time I worried about exit numbers or mileposts was when I was heading to an unfamiliar exit and checked the exit number in advance to make sure I didn't miss it. I doubt other drivers even care that much. I still much prefer mileage to sequential numbering for exit numbers.
I like the postmile markers. I wish Caltrans was better about maintaining them. I also like the AAA maps that show the county lines, to help with pinning my location down exactly.
The mileage numbered exits are helpful, but on non-freeways they don't seem to be posting any mile markers other than the postmile markers.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on January 21, 2021, 01:32:57 PM
Most 911 dispatchers want addresses, not mile posts or directions. I have run into this many times helping people on the side of the road and giving directions like I would to people on this forum. (I am on the westbound lanes and I am about halfway between mile markers 140 and 141). They dismiss this.
Again, since the postmiles are small white paddles, it took me a long time to realize those paddles actually had something to do with the road. They are just very different from what I am used to, so personally, I easily ignored them, so I actually never realized they increased/decreased at all.
Where I am, 911 dispatchers like it when you give the mile marker location for freeways, considering that the blue enhanced mile markers are posted every 0.1 mile in the median here (example: I'm on southbound 75 at mile 14.7). A lot of the western states seem to not have those enhanced mile markers at all, so direction may be a bit difficult.
Quote from: kkt on March 11, 2021, 12:23:48 AM
I like the postmile markers. I wish Caltrans was better about maintaining them. I also like the AAA maps that show the county lines, to help with pinning my location down exactly.
The mileage numbered exits are helpful, but on non-freeways they don't seem to be posting any mile markers other than the postmile markers.
That made me laugh. I would say, " I wish Caltrans was better about
maintaining all of their signs."
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on March 12, 2021, 05:48:26 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 11, 2021, 12:23:48 AM
I like the postmile markers. I wish Caltrans was better about maintaining them. I also like the AAA maps that show the county lines, to help with pinning my location down exactly.
The mileage numbered exits are helpful, but on non-freeways they don't seem to be posting any mile markers other than the postmile markers.
That made me laugh. I would say, " I wish Caltrans was better about maintaining all of their signs."
Depends on the district, some got really good after SB1 like D6.
And then there's District 8.
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 10:59:30 AM
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 20, 2021, 06:18:46 PM
But most of the driving public doesn't care about mileposts or postmiles. ... The same goes for highway numbering. We may care about it as roadgeeks, but it doesn't make a difference to the state, and most of the driving public doesn't think about it as long as their GPS gets them where they are going.
As for the general driving public... Really, the only time a driver needs to know a mile marker, it's for one of two reasons: (1) following directions that refer to one or (2) identifying a location while calling emergency services. In both cases, it's just as easy to refer to a California postmile as it is to a "normal" mile marker. The number will be different, but that doesn't really matter for the task at hand.
And the same goes for route numbering. Route numbers exist to help guide drivers onto the correct road. The number 238 does that just as well as any x80–probably better, actually, as drivers are less likely to confuse 238 with an x80 as they are to confuse an x80 with a different x80. The only possible route numbering thing that might really confuse drivers is two routes with the same number being in close proximity. And, even then, it's only a problem if it's actually a problem.
... like the green 80 and the blue 80 in Sacramento, for instance.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 12, 2021, 06:30:50 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on March 12, 2021, 05:48:26 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 11, 2021, 12:23:48 AM
I like the postmile markers. I wish Caltrans was better about maintaining them. I also like the AAA maps that show the county lines, to help with pinning my location down exactly.
The mileage numbered exits are helpful, but on non-freeways they don't seem to be posting any mile markers other than the postmile markers.
That made me laugh. I would say, " I wish Caltrans was better about maintaining all of their signs."
Depends on the district, some got really good after SB1 like D6.
That's not the district with I-880 which has TWO exits 1-D, is it?
Quote from: michravera on March 15, 2021, 01:39:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 10:59:30 AM
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 20, 2021, 06:18:46 PM
But most of the driving public doesn't care about mileposts or postmiles. ... The same goes for highway numbering. We may care about it as roadgeeks, but it doesn't make a difference to the state, and most of the driving public doesn't think about it as long as their GPS gets them where they are going.
As for the general driving public... Really, the only time a driver needs to know a mile marker, it's for one of two reasons: (1) following directions that refer to one or (2) identifying a location while calling emergency services. In both cases, it's just as easy to refer to a California postmile as it is to a "normal" mile marker. The number will be different, but that doesn't really matter for the task at hand.
And the same goes for route numbering. Route numbers exist to help guide drivers onto the correct road. The number 238 does that just as well as any x80–probably better, actually, as drivers are less likely to confuse 238 with an x80 as they are to confuse an x80 with a different x80. The only possible route numbering thing that might really confuse drivers is two routes with the same number being in close proximity. And, even then, it's only a problem if it's actually a problem.
... like the green 80 and the blue 80 in Sacramento, for instance.
Problem there is now that those green 80 shields tend to disappear by US 50 which can make it confusing to a driver not in the know about the layout of Sacramento. Then again my thoughts on signing CA 51 over Business 80 are well known on this forum
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 15, 2021, 09:00:29 AM
Quote from: michravera on March 15, 2021, 01:39:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 10:59:30 AM
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 20, 2021, 06:18:46 PM
But most of the driving public doesn't care about mileposts or postmiles. ... The same goes for highway numbering. We may care about it as roadgeeks, but it doesn't make a difference to the state, and most of the driving public doesn't think about it as long as their GPS gets them where they are going.
As for the general driving public... Really, the only time a driver needs to know a mile marker, it's for one of two reasons: (1) following directions that refer to one or (2) identifying a location while calling emergency services. In both cases, it's just as easy to refer to a California postmile as it is to a "normal" mile marker. The number will be different, but that doesn't really matter for the task at hand.
And the same goes for route numbering. Route numbers exist to help guide drivers onto the correct road. The number 238 does that just as well as any x80–probably better, actually, as drivers are less likely to confuse 238 with an x80 as they are to confuse an x80 with a different x80. The only possible route numbering thing that might really confuse drivers is two routes with the same number being in close proximity. And, even then, it's only a problem if it's actually a problem.
... like the green 80 and the blue 80 in Sacramento, for instance.
Problem there is now that those green 80 shields tend to disappear by US 50 which can make it confusing to a driver not in the know about the layout of Sacramento. Then again my thoughts on signing CA 51 over Business 80 are well known on this forum
... as are mine. And I think that we agree!
Quote from: michravera on March 15, 2021, 01:39:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 10:59:30 AM
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 20, 2021, 06:18:46 PM
But most of the driving public doesn't care about mileposts or postmiles. ... The same goes for highway numbering. We may care about it as roadgeeks, but it doesn't make a difference to the state, and most of the driving public doesn't think about it as long as their GPS gets them where they are going.
As for the general driving public... Really, the only time a driver needs to know a mile marker, it's for one of two reasons: (1) following directions that refer to one or (2) identifying a location while calling emergency services. In both cases, it's just as easy to refer to a California postmile as it is to a "normal" mile marker. The number will be different, but that doesn't really matter for the task at hand.
And the same goes for route numbering. Route numbers exist to help guide drivers onto the correct road. The number 238 does that just as well as any x80–probably better, actually, as drivers are less likely to confuse 238 with an x80 as they are to confuse an x80 with a different x80. The only possible route numbering thing that might really confuse drivers is two routes with the same number being in close proximity. And, even then, it's only a problem if it's actually a problem.
... like the green 80 and the blue 80 in Sacramento, for instance.
The trouble with I-238 is NOT that it violates all the interstate numbering guidelines. The trouble is that there's green CA 238 a north-south highway, and there's blue I-238, an east-west highway. They used to meet and 238 turned, but now they touch and require a freeway entrance or exit in order to stay on 238.
Quote from: kkt on March 15, 2021, 04:29:36 PM
The trouble with I-238 is NOT that it violates all the interstate numbering guidelines. The trouble is that there's green CA 238 a north-south highway, and there's blue I-238, an east-west highway. They used to meet and 238 turned, but now they touch and require a freeway entrance or exit in order to stay on 238.
And this isn't a problem for 283 in Pennsylvania?
Quote from: 1 on March 15, 2021, 05:04:53 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 15, 2021, 04:29:36 PM
The trouble with I-238 is NOT that it violates all the interstate numbering guidelines. The trouble is that there's green CA 238 a north-south highway, and there's blue I-238, an east-west highway. They used to meet and 238 turned, but now they touch and require a freeway entrance or exit in order to stay on 238.
And this isn't a problem for 283 in Pennsylvania?
I've never been there, but it looks like it would be, yes.
Quote from: kkt on March 15, 2021, 04:29:36 PM
Quote from: michravera on March 15, 2021, 01:39:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger on January 21, 2021, 10:59:30 AM
Quote from: cahwyguy on January 20, 2021, 06:18:46 PM
But most of the driving public doesn't care about mileposts or postmiles. ... The same goes for highway numbering. We may care about it as roadgeeks, but it doesn't make a difference to the state, and most of the driving public doesn't think about it as long as their GPS gets them where they are going.
As for the general driving public... Really, the only time a driver needs to know a mile marker, it's for one of two reasons: (1) following directions that refer to one or (2) identifying a location while calling emergency services. In both cases, it's just as easy to refer to a California postmile as it is to a "normal" mile marker. The number will be different, but that doesn't really matter for the task at hand.
And the same goes for route numbering. Route numbers exist to help guide drivers onto the correct road. The number 238 does that just as well as any x80–probably better, actually, as drivers are less likely to confuse 238 with an x80 as they are to confuse an x80 with a different x80. The only possible route numbering thing that might really confuse drivers is two routes with the same number being in close proximity. And, even then, it's only a problem if it's actually a problem.
... like the green 80 and the blue 80 in Sacramento, for instance.
The trouble with I-238 is NOT that it violates all the interstate numbering guidelines. The trouble is that there's green CA 238 a north-south highway, and there's blue I-238, an east-west highway. They used to meet and 238 turned, but now they touch and require a freeway entrance or exit in order to stay on 238.
If you mention "Highway 238" to pretty much any member of the motoring public in the Bay Area, they are going to assume you are talking about the freeway connector between I-580 and I-880. Referring to Foothill/Mission Blvd as "238" is probably going to get the same blank stares as referring to East 14th St as "185".
Certainly, I-238 is better known, but that's not a reason for having an unconnected stretch of boulevard carry the same number.
Quote from: kkt on March 16, 2021, 06:35:55 PM
Certainly, I-238 is better known, but that's not a reason for having an unconnected stretch of boulevard carry the same number.
It was connected, until the city of Hayward took over part of CA 238 within its limits and removed the route signage. Blame Hayward and the legislature.
There's a half-mile stub of CA 238 between Hayward and I-580 which remains unrelinquished, and connected to I-238.
Caltrans could ask the legislature to change I-238 to I-480.
Quote from: kkt on March 16, 2021, 10:34:37 PM
Caltrans could ask the legislature to change I-238 to I-480.
That would require the legislature actually doing something and someone at Caltrans actually pursuing it. It would be nice if Caltrans and the legislature would get together to clean up some other stuff like highways that will never get built in addition to resolving routes with gaps in them. I mean, I get it...I'm a government employee myself and I know what apathy tends to come into play when actually petitioning a legislative body for something. Something like that would never happen unless there was some sort of external push for it to happen. To that end, all the weird left over scraps in the highway system tend to be whah interests me the most about it...so is it in the best interest of the road hobby?
More so the concept of D4 spending any real money/funding on signage replacements (retro reflective upgrades to reflective paint signs are lame IMO) is probably a non-starter.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 16, 2021, 11:35:54 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 16, 2021, 10:34:37 PM
Caltrans could ask the legislature to change I-238 to I-480.
That would require the legislature actually doing something and someone at Caltrans actually pursuing it.
Is it me or is the last time the legislature even extended a highway designation at all was in the last millennium with 210 taking over old 30 in the late 1990s?
Other than that, the piecemeal relinquishments (which I've oft-opined really should not be so tied to how well a route is navigationally signed) seem to be the only thing that has occurred in the legislative route definitions since.
The routes that were slated to be completed as Interstate extensions (210, 15) or as a full state-to-interstate upgrade (905) have basically just been left as the status quo. Though it was interesting to see that Tennessee spent many years building what was once state route 840 before finally getting the Interstate shields up a few years ago, so I wonder if that will eventually happen here.
(And of course the Rice Avenue saga on Route 1 is self-explanatory)
Quote from: TheStranger on March 17, 2021, 03:27:10 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 16, 2021, 11:35:54 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 16, 2021, 10:34:37 PM
Caltrans could ask the legislature to change I-238 to I-480.
That would require the legislature actually doing something and someone at Caltrans actually pursuing it.
Is it me or is the last time the legislature even extended a highway designation at all was in the last millennium with 210 taking over old 30 in the late 1990s?
Other than that, the piecemeal relinquishments (which I've oft-opined really should not be so tied to how well a route is navigationally signed) seem to be the only thing that has occurred in the legislative route definitions since.
The routes that were slated to be completed as Interstate extensions (210, 15) or as a full state-to-interstate upgrade (905) have basically just been left as the status quo. Though it was interesting to see that Tennessee spent many years building what was once state route 840 before finally getting the Interstate shields up a few years ago, so I wonder if that will eventually happen here.
(And of course the Rice Avenue saga on Route 1 is self-explanatory)
I think so, pretty much everything since has been California Transportation Commission and the Legislature relinquishing stuff. Why not just do the rest the next time a relinquishment if up for legislative authorization.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 16, 2021, 11:35:54 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 16, 2021, 10:34:37 PM
Caltrans could ask the legislature to change I-238 to I-480.
That would require the legislature actually doing something and someone at Caltrans actually pursuing it. It would be nice if Caltrans and the legislature would get together to clean up some other stuff like highways that will never get built in addition to resolving routes with gaps in them. I mean, I get it...I'm a government employee myself and I know what apathy tends to come into play when actually petitioning a legislative body for something. Something like that would never happen unless there was some sort of external push for it to happen. To that end, all the weird left over scraps in the highway system tend to be whah interests me the most about it...so is it in the best interest of the road hobby?
More so the concept of D4 spending any real money/funding on signage replacements (retro reflective upgrades to reflective paint signs are lame IMO) is probably a non-starter.
I also work as a federal employee in Washington DC in a part of the government that doesn't deal with highways. I can tell you that our agency often does look around the federal laws and makes recommendations to the appropriate Congressional committees to do some "housekeeping" efforts to make sure the laws on the books still make sense. Often these are non-controversial issues and generally pass with wide majorities. [Most legislation is like that, its only the highly partisan stuff that tends to make the news.]
It is sort of a shame that something similar does not occur on a state level. Cleaning up the highway system should be far less controversial and partisan than something like taxes or environmental regulation. It seems like there is nobody at Caltrans who could basically take on a project of this sort and then make recommendations to the legislature. Nor does this seem to be the type of issue that would so bother a legislator to make it a pet project to put signs up all over the state.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 16, 2021, 11:35:54 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 16, 2021, 10:34:37 PM
Caltrans could ask the legislature to change I-238 to I-480.
That would require the legislature actually doing something and someone at Caltrans actually pursuing it. It would be nice if Caltrans and the legislature would get together to clean up some other stuff like highways that will never get built in addition to resolving routes with gaps in them. I mean, I get it...I'm a government employee myself and I know what apathy tends to come into play when actually petitioning a legislative body for something. Something like that would never happen unless there was some sort of external push for it to happen. To that end, all the weird left over scraps in the highway system tend to be whah interests me the most about it...so is it in the best interest of the road hobby?
More so the concept of D4 spending any real money/funding on signage replacements (retro reflective upgrades to reflective paint signs are lame IMO) is probably a non-starter.
If someone here had the time, we could write the proposed legislation to clean up the S&H code and send it out to state reps and senators. I've been thinking about doing that for Historic Route 101 signing here in Orange County. I could get my local heritage/historical orgs to put it on their letterhead. I've just been too busy to put together the language of a bill.
If someone were really bold, they could fake a letter to AASHTO from the CTC or the Caltrans District heads and apply for AASHTO approval to clean up some of the interstate designations in California. Not that I am advocating forging a state agency document . . .
Faking a letter would discredit the whole project. Must be someone in Caltrans we could talk to about putting the noncontroversial route cleanups before the Legislature.
Problem is finding out "who" that person might be. I kind of thought maybe reaching out to one of the District Directors might be a decent place to start for something like that.
Quote from: mrsman on March 17, 2021, 10:11:31 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 16, 2021, 11:35:54 PM
Quote from: kkt on March 16, 2021, 10:34:37 PM
Caltrans could ask the legislature to change I-238 to I-480.
That would require the legislature actually doing something and someone at Caltrans actually pursuing it. It would be nice if Caltrans and the legislature would get together to clean up some other stuff like highways that will never get built in addition to resolving routes with gaps in them. I mean, I get it...I'm a government employee myself and I know what apathy tends to come into play when actually petitioning a legislative body for something. Something like that would never happen unless there was some sort of external push for it to happen. To that end, all the weird left over scraps in the highway system tend to be whah interests me the most about it...so is it in the best interest of the road hobby?
More so the concept of D4 spending any real money/funding on signage replacements (retro reflective upgrades to reflective paint signs are lame IMO) is probably a non-starter.
I also work as a federal employee in Washington DC in a part of the government that doesn't deal with highways. I can tell you that our agency often does look around the federal laws and makes recommendations to the appropriate Congressional committees to do some "housekeeping" efforts to make sure the laws on the books still make sense. Often these are non-controversial issues and generally pass with wide majorities. [Most legislation is like that, its only the highly partisan stuff that tends to make the news.]
It is sort of a shame that something similar does not occur on a state level. Cleaning up the highway system should be far less controversial and partisan than something like taxes or environmental regulation. It seems like there is nobody at Caltrans who could basically take on a project of this sort and then make recommendations to the legislature. Nor does this seem to be the type of issue that would so bother a legislator to make it a pet project to put signs up all over the state.
Over here in NY, NYSDOT only has a limited number of items per year it can petition the legislature on. I've heard that all of them get used every year, though I'm not sure what on.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on March 17, 2021, 08:23:48 PM
Problem is finding out "who" that person might be. I kind of thought maybe reaching out to one of the District Directors might be a decent place to start for something like that.
In NY it's in the Main Office somewhere, probably Legal if I had to guess. It might be similar for CalTrans.
Quote from: TheStranger on March 17, 2021, 03:27:10 AM
The routes that were slated to be completed as Interstate extensions (210, 15) or as a full state-to-interstate upgrade (905) have basically just been left as the status quo.
It's not quite that bad: CA 15 and CA 905 may be rotting but CA 210 is getting expanded out to three lanes from San Bernardino through Redlands. It should meet Interstate standard after that.
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on March 18, 2021, 12:43:09 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on March 17, 2021, 03:27:10 AM
The routes that were slated to be completed as Interstate extensions (210, 15) or as a full state-to-interstate upgrade (905) have basically just been left as the status quo.
It's not quite that bad: CA 15 and CA 905 may be rotting but CA 210 is getting expanded out to three lanes from San Bernardino through Redlands. It should meet Interstate standard after that.
I was actually thinking much more in the terms of getting the full red and blue shield designations but that makes sense too.
905 basically has been built entirely to its eastern terminus in Otay right? Is the 125 junction the last step before the road is considered complete?
I recall 15 on the Wabash corridor was only going to be considered fully Interstate standard once the interchange with 94 was rebuilt to remove left exit ramps.
SM-G973U1
Quote from: TheStranger on March 18, 2021, 01:29:27 AM
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on March 18, 2021, 12:43:09 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on March 17, 2021, 03:27:10 AM
The routes that were slated to be completed as Interstate extensions (210, 15) or as a full state-to-interstate upgrade (905) have basically just been left as the status quo.
It's not quite that bad: CA 15 and CA 905 may be rotting but CA 210 is getting expanded out to three lanes from San Bernardino through Redlands. It should meet Interstate standard after that.
I was actually thinking much more in the terms of getting the full red and blue shield designations but that makes sense too.
905 basically has been built entirely to its eastern terminus in Otay right? Is the 125 junction the last step before the road is considered complete?
I recall 15 on the Wabash corridor was only going to be considered fully Interstate standard once the interchange with 94 was rebuilt to remove left exit ramps.
SM-G973U1
I think a lot of this comes from the fact that California is one of those states that doesn't differentiate between State Highway, US Highway and Interstate Highway in regards to numbers. There is no push for them internally to designate SR-210 to I-210. To them the entire route is Route-210, regardless of what the shield says in the field. Same goes for 110, 710 and 15.
Quote from: TheStranger on March 18, 2021, 01:29:27 AM
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on March 18, 2021, 12:43:09 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on March 17, 2021, 03:27:10 AM
The routes that were slated to be completed as Interstate extensions (210, 15) or as a full state-to-interstate upgrade (905) have basically just been left as the status quo.
It's not quite that bad: CA 15 and CA 905 may be rotting but CA 210 is getting expanded out to three lanes from San Bernardino through Redlands. It should meet Interstate standard after that.
I was actually thinking much more in the terms of getting the full red and blue shield designations but that makes sense too.
905 basically has been built entirely to its eastern terminus in Otay right? Is the 125 junction the last step before the road is considered complete?
I recall 15 on the Wabash corridor was only going to be considered fully Interstate standard once the interchange with 94 was rebuilt to remove left exit ramps.
SM-G973U1
Yes, the 125-905-11 interchange is the final improvement to complete the 905 project. There are plans to improve La Media Road as it serves the commercial truck border crossing, and there might be other planned interchange improvements once the adjacent areas develop (Otay Mesa is not fully built out according to the community plan). So I think 905 would meet Interstate standards once the 125-905-11 project is done. I just don't know if District 11 will make application.
As for 15, the interchange with 94 is the remaining non standard segment. 15 is Interstate standard between 805 and 8. In not sure where the 15-94 project status is. It is tied to a proposed HOV/Busway planned along 94 between 805 and downtown San Diego. So we will have to see what the next steps will be for that project.
I believe 210 will become an Interstate once the 3-lane project is done on the old SR 30 section, but we will see!
SM-G975U
What I don't understand is why the interchange with the 94 affects the 15's Interstate eligibility - the left exits are from the 94, not the 15, and neither route has left entrances.
Or the 125/11/905 interchange, for that matter. The roadway geometry on 905 isn't affected by whether the rest of the ramps to/from 125 and 11 have been built yet. FHWA may not like partial interchanges these days, but it's not like they're banned, and that wouldn't have applied back in the days where there wasn't an interchange at all.
Quote from: vdeane on March 20, 2021, 10:56:47 PM
Or the 125/11/905 interchange, for that matter. The roadway geometry on 905 isn't affected by whether the rest of the ramps to/from 125 and 11 have been built yet.
Another complicating factor is that 11 is being extended to a brand-new border crossing east of the existing 905 crossing. If Caltrans really gives a crap about a new Interstate designation (all evidence is that it doesn't, except maybe for 210), it would need to mull over whether a new Interstate should follow 11 rather than 905 to the border, or whether AASHTO/FHWA might raise that question. Yet another reason/excuse for Caltrans not to bother with the paperwork and expense of trying to change out the route markers.
Having 905 take over 11 and 125 take over the rest of 905 would probably make more sense; this is definitely a case of numbers reflecting history more than current conditions. That said, 11 being tolled would be a complicating factor, and in any case, it's not like 11 was around when 905 was finished.
Had there been enough foresight on the routing, the 905/11/125 interchange can be way less convoluted than the current one.