AARoads Forum

How would you rate the usefulness of Business Interstate routes?  Are they useful for you other then clinching a route?  What purpose do you believe they have to the average motoring public?  Do you see any new proposals on the horizon?

Wasn't there a BUS LOOP I-65 at one time?

Business 85 in Greensboro, NC. It's a bit faster than using the loop side of 85  if and only if there's no traffic. Also helpful to do from Danville (or using 29 as a scenic route to Northern VA)

Not really but I hit a lot of them so I can finish old US Route segments in specific cities.

From looking at a map, NC probably has the most useful business routes for me: Business I-40 in Winston Salem and Business I-85 in High Point and Greensboro. Business I-80 in Sacramento also seems like a route that I would use outside of clinching.

With some exceptions, such as I-80BL in Sacramento (which could be replaced by signing CA 51) and other freeway-level BLs, they aren't particularly useful for me.

It used to be, especially in California, that communities bypassed by a new Interstate begged for a business route for the old alignment. That seems to have gone away, with route signage disappearing on existing routes. Logo signs, and smartphones, are better ways to find traveler services.

Quote from: SkyPesos on January 25, 2021, 11:35:34 AM
From looking at a map, NC probably has the most useful business routes for me: Business I-40 in Winston Salem and Business I-85 in High Point and Greensboro.

BL 40 in Winston-Salem is toast. Most or all of its signage has been removed.

Quote from: oscar on January 25, 2021, 11:43:29 AM
With some exceptions, such as I-80BL in Sacramento (which could be replaced by signing CA 51) and other freeway-level BLs, they aren't particularly useful for me.

It used to be, especially in California, that communities bypassed by a new Interstate begged for a business route for the old alignment. That seems to have gone away, with route signage disappearing on existing routes. Logo signs, and smartphones, are better ways to find traveler services.

Quote from: SkyPesos on January 25, 2021, 11:35:34 AM
From looking at a map, NC probably has the most useful business routes for me: Business I-40 in Winston Salem and Business I-85 in High Point and Greensboro.

BL 40 in Winston-Salem is toast. Most or all of its signage has been removed.

Why did they remove BL 40 in Winston-Salem?  Just because it wasn't a surface BL doesn't mean it wasn't useful.  Having one consistently signed route going through the heart of WL wasn't a bad idea.

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on January 25, 2021, 12:50:48 PM

Quote from: oscar on January 25, 2021, 11:43:29 AM
With some exceptions, such as I-80BL in Sacramento (which could be replaced by signing CA 51) and other freeway-level BLs, they aren't particularly useful for me.

It used to be, especially in California, that communities bypassed by a new Interstate begged for a business route for the old alignment. That seems to have gone away, with route signage disappearing on existing routes. Logo signs, and smartphones, are better ways to find traveler services.

Quote from: SkyPesos on January 25, 2021, 11:35:34 AM
From looking at a map, NC probably has the most useful business routes for me: Business I-40 in Winston Salem and Business I-85 in High Point and Greensboro.

BL 40 in Winston-Salem is toast. Most or all of its signage has been removed.

Why did they remove BL 40 in Winston-Salem?  Just because it wasn't a surface BL doesn't mean it wasn't useful.  Having one consistently signed route going through the heart of WL wasn't a bad idea.

Probably because it's also US 421.

Nope.  I generally know in advance where I'll be stopping along the way during a trip, so I have little use for a route that promises to lead me to a business district.

I think they're kind of fun, but they can be annoying for clinching purposes if I won't be coming back to the parent route later in the trip to do the section between the business loop exits, since I probably won't be in the mood to do two laps around town. It nearly presented an amusing scenario last summer where the last section of I-90 I may have ended up needing nationally was the section between the BL exits in Wallace, ID, but I made sure to get back on 90 at the east side BL interchange where I got off.

I would prefer that they not exist.  I have never liked the idea of following an interstate shield on surface routes (which most BLs basically are).

They can easily be state routes if they have to.

Illinois just has 3 on 55 and they are all old route 66 or inn the case of Springfield business 66. . I fact Bloomington at least is numbered historic 66
The only other is on 72 in Jacksonville and part of it is the US 67 freeway bypass. Part of that is Illinois confess to have the shield on all freeways.

It seems like the most common rationale for business Interstates is to serve as some level (usually minimal) of compensation to a bypassed town to direct traffic to businesses somewhat dependent upon a steady traffic stream.  Almost invariably the loops are along the former signed highway, regardless of whether much of the town was served by that highway or not.  If that were less of a common configuration, and the business-loop concept expanded to serve actual extant business areas either on or off the former through highway, there might be a real reason to post such things.  As an example, Sioux Falls, SD has business routes decidedly not on former US 16 and US 77 -- and the times I've been through the town I've managed to find decent dining along those routes, particularly "Spur 29" on 41st Street.  Creative thinking regarding these things might be the key to successful biz-loop/spur deployment.

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on January 25, 2021, 03:33:08 PM
I think they're kind of fun, but they can be annoying for clinching purposes if I won't be coming back to the parent route later in the trip to do the section between the business loop exits, since I probably won't be in the mood to do two laps around town.

One thing that I've done from time to time is to take the main interstate to the end of the business loop, and then travel the loop in the reverse direction to return to the main interstate. You do end up with some doubled up mileage, but it seems reasonable to me.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 26, 2021, 12:54:44 AM

Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on January 25, 2021, 03:33:08 PM
I think they're kind of fun, but they can be annoying for clinching purposes if I won't be coming back to the parent route later in the trip to do the section between the business loop exits, since I probably won't be in the mood to do two laps around town.

One thing that I've done from time to time is to take the main interstate to the end of the business loop, and then travel the loop in the reverse direction to return to the main interstate. You do end up with some doubled up mileage, but it seems reasonable to me.

I've done that as well on occasion, but it does get rather tedious if the loop is longer than a couple miles.

If I can see the Interstate and the BL is really more or less a frontage road then I just consider it a double clinch.  Now if the roadway is far from the interstate then I may double back or just cut my losses at that point.

Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 25, 2021, 04:10:33 PM
I would prefer that they not exist.  I have never liked the idea of following an interstate shield on surface routes (which most BLs basically are).

They can easily be state routes if they have to.

Most of them tend to overlap state or US routes (and sometimes even county roads) anyhow. In fact, I still say if the Long Island Expressway Extension were revived, you could have Suffolk CR 58 converted into part of BL 495 east of Exit 73, then a short section of NY 25, and then Suffolk CR 105 until that hypothetical interchange with the expressway.

I just wish NCDOT would've added more interchanges to BL 95 in Fayetteville, instead of adding more openings to the median.

Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 25, 2021, 04:10:33 PM
I would prefer that they not exist.  I have never liked the idea of following an interstate shield on surface routes (which most BLs basically are).

It isn't an interstate shield, though. It's green.

From a western perspective, I tend to like business routes because they 1) tell me a town is fairly substantial and is likely to have anything I might need, and 2) provide a signed surface through route if I do find myself off the freeway in such a town.

Freeway grade BLs like I-80 Sacramento and I-85 Spartanburg and Greensboro are just dumb, though. That's not the point of a business route.

We don't have them in Virginia and thus I've never really had much reaction to them either way.

Quote from: US 89 on January 26, 2021, 11:30:17 AM
Freeway grade BLs like I-80 Sacramento and I-85 Spartanburg and Greensboro are just dumb, though. That's not the point of a business route.

Idm renumbering I-180 to Business I-80, just call it a business route serving Hennepin, a town of 750 people ;)

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 26, 2021, 11:46:10 AM
We don't have them in Virginia and thus I've never really had much reaction to them either way.

Pretty much my opinion. I find them to be curiosities when I travel out of state.

Quote from: US 89 on January 26, 2021, 11:30:17 AM

Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 25, 2021, 04:10:33 PM
I would prefer that they not exist.  I have never liked the idea of following an interstate shield on surface routes (which most BLs basically are).

It isn't an interstate shield, though. It's green.

From a western perspective, I tend to like business routes because they 1) tell me a town is fairly substantial and is likely to have anything I might need, and 2) provide a signed surface through route if I do find myself off the freeway in such a town.

Freeway grade BLs like I-80 Sacramento and I-85 Spartanburg and Greensboro are just dumb, though. That's not the point of a business route.

Officially you are correct, but it still looks like an interstate shield.  I understand the reasoning based on US business routes, and state business routes.  However, US Routes and State Routes are not expected to be freeways usually.

I would be fine if you took the I-40 BLs in AZ making them AZ 40A, AZ 40B, etc.

Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 26, 2021, 12:18:51 PM
I would be fine if you took the I-40 BLs in AZ making them AZ 40A, AZ 40B, etc.

That's a great idea!

Instead of what's here now (https://goo.gl/maps/tDELV4HTBDQssVNx9), for example, would be this:

(https://i.imgur.com/rPeZtPT.png)

---

On a related note, I just learned that this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/2NUGpRwm2mfV2i5r9) is erroneous.  It's not Business I-35W(V), but rather Business I-35(V)–as confirmed by both the TxDOT highway designation file (http://www.dot.state.tx.us/tpp/hwy/bi/bi0035v.htm) and Ground-mounted signage (https://goo.gl/maps/S8Q4hcfoJDhw7UDj8).

Quote from: kphoger on January 26, 2021, 01:21:49 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/rPeZtPT.png)

This works well for everything except 35E. I'm fine with 2B, 3D, 3M, 5G, 9N, 24K, 90S, 100C, 212F, 270Y, 401K, 454G, 984J, 1909S, etc., but 35E belongs in Dallas.

(edited to add more)

QuoteThis works well for everything except 35E. I'm fine with 2B, 9N, 24K, 90S, 100C, 212F, 401K, 1909S, etc., but 35E belongs in Dallas.

I like the hilarity I created without thinking about 35E and 35W.

Yeah, I am sure Texas and Minnesota would not use 35E and 35W for specifically those reasons.  However, an adjustment of NY's suffixed system for the BLs was exactly what I was practically going for.

Situations like I-95BL in Fayetteville would not apply to this since the existing route is already 99% US 301.

Sometimes, I wish that Ohio uses NY's suffix system in certain cases. There's a lot of state routes in the state that could easily be a suffixed version of another route. For example, OH 747 can be OH 4A, which would go well with nearby OH 4 Bypass as OH 4B.

Well how about it you used a all white sign in lieu of the green?

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on January 26, 2021, 02:02:31 PM
Well how about it you used a all white sign in lieu of the green?

Like these?

(https://www.aaroads.com/dc/001/thb/us-001_nb_at_madison_dr_nw.jpg)

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 26, 2021, 02:04:13 PM

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on January 26, 2021, 02:02:31 PM
Well how about it you used a all white sign in lieu of the green?

Like these?

(https://www.aaroads.com/dc/001/thb/us-001_nb_at_madison_dr_nw.jpg)

Wow those are...wow.
Alternate could be for a lot of these a signed route with an icon but no number, like the Hampton Roads Beltway in VA.
Don't like the I-95 BL in Fayetteville? Sign it Fayetteville Urban Loop/Historic Loop/Business Loop, ignoring any and all route numbers.

Quote from: ahj2000 on January 26, 2021, 02:23:16 PM

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 26, 2021, 02:04:13 PM

Quote from: Avalanchez71 on January 26, 2021, 02:02:31 PM
Well how about it you used a all white sign in lieu of the green?

Like these?

(https://www.aaroads.com/dc/001/thb/us-001_nb_at_madison_dr_nw.jpg)

Wow those are...wow.
Alternate could be for a lot of these a signed route with an icon but no number, like the Hampton Roads Beltway in VA.
Don't like the I-95 BL in Fayetteville? Sign it Fayetteville Urban Loop/Historic Loop/Business Loop, ignoring any and all route numbers.

Sort of like that but with maybe a suffix or prominent business label.

I think BL and BS routes help pump money into a local economy and bring folks into town that may have otherwise not ventured.

Quote from: 1 on January 26, 2021, 01:42:07 PM

Quote from: kphoger on January 26, 2021, 01:21:49 PM

(https://i.imgur.com/rPeZtPT.png)

This works well for everything except 35E. I'm fine with 2B, 3D, 3M, 5G, 9N, 24K, 90S, 100C, 212F, 270Y, 401K, 454G, 984J, 1909S, etc., but 35E belongs in Dallas.

(edited to add more)

You'll have to take that up with TxDOT.  The business loop through Pearsall is officially numbered 35-E.  I used the number that it actually is.  You think it should be a different number, that ain't my problem.

Quote from: TxDOT Highway Designation File
USINESS INTERSTATE HIGHWAY NO. 35-E

Minute Order 091363, dated 03/26/1991; Adm. Ltr. 003-1991, dated 08/23/1991

From its junction with IH 35 north of Pearsall, southward to Comal St and then westward along and concurrent with FM 140 (West Comal St) to its junction with FM 1581; thence southward along FM 1581 to its junction with IH 35, a distance of approximately 5.5 miles. (Frio County)  Section from IH 35 north of Pearsall, southward to Comal St transferred from US 81; thence section along W. Comal St westward to FM 1581 is concurrent with FM 140; thence section from FM 140 south along FM 1581 to IH 35 is concurrent with FM 1581.

And there's already an 'E' on the existing shields.



Perhaps you'd prefer something like this, then:



That presents a problem, of course, because a highway with that number already exists in West Columbia.

Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 26, 2021, 12:18:51 PM

Quote from: US 89 on January 26, 2021, 11:30:17 AM

Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 25, 2021, 04:10:33 PM
I would prefer that they not exist.  I have never liked the idea of following an interstate shield on surface routes (which most BLs basically are).

It isn't an interstate shield, though. It's green.

From a western perspective, I tend to like business routes because they 1) tell me a town is fairly substantial and is likely to have anything I might need, and 2) provide a signed surface through route if I do find myself off the freeway in such a town.

Freeway grade BLs like I-80 Sacramento and I-85 Spartanburg and Greensboro are just dumb, though. That's not the point of a business route.

Officially you are correct, but it still looks like an interstate shield.  I understand the reasoning based on US business routes, and state business routes.  However, US Routes and State Routes are not expected to be freeways usually.

I would be fine if you took the I-40 BLs in AZ making them AZ 40A, AZ 40B, etc.

Here's the thing with that though. In most states outside the northeast, a road signed as a state route is expected to be state maintained. Interstate business routes are not necessarily subject to that distinction.

Take the I-80 business loop in Elko, Nevada as an example. About half of it is state-maintained, and that part is also signed as SR 535 - but the locally maintained parts are still BL-80. It wouldn't work to post the whole thing as SR 80D or whatever when half of it isn't even a Nevada state highway...not to mention it would break the rules of Nevada's highly organized state route system.

Quote from: 1995hoo on January 26, 2021, 11:46:10 AM
We don't have them in Virginia and thus I've never really had much reaction to them either way.

We don't have them in New York, or Florida either for that matter. I was originally confused about them when I learned about them as a kid, but once I found out how they worked, I was okay with them. They may not be needed everywhere, but there are certainly places where I think they'd be useful.

How about the routes that now really miss the mark for usefulness?

No use for me other than clinching a route. We don't have many on the East Coast, except there is I-83 Business pretty close to me in York, Pennsylvania.

Wisconsin doesn't use them, but I don't use them in other states either.

If I need to stop, I stop at the exits with the most gas and food options available.  Either from guide signs or from billboards as we get to an area.

Quote from: 74/171FAN on January 26, 2021, 12:18:51 PM
I would be fine if you took the I-40 BLs in AZ making them AZ 40A, AZ 40B, etc.

This idea would work okay in Oklahoma, since we already have both suffixed routes, but would require renumbering of existing SH-40A, which already exists as a spur off former SH-40. Since SH-40 is now US-177, that should arguably have been made SH-177A a long time ago.

A SH-44A, branching off of extant SH-44, already exists, but there are no business routes of I-44 in Oklahoma, so that's fine.

BS-20 in Florence, SC is pretty useful, considering it's one of the main ways in and out of the city from the Interstate network. The two times I've been there that's whatI've used.

Michigan is big on Business interstates (as well as Business US and M routes). Many are on former US/state routes replaced by interstates or new aliments of State and US routes. Examples are BUS-I-75 in Pontiac (over former US-10/Woodward and Former BR-M-24) and BUS-I-94 in Marshall (replaced US-12 (1926-62)).

I like them.  They let me know that a road goes to a business district and will lead back to the Interstate.  I disagree with the idea that GPS navigators substitute for signage.  I don't think anyone would suggest that all route signs should be removed.  We still benefit from having the way to things like parks and business districts marked, if they aren't along an otherwise existing route.

Another purpose they serve is to keep a big state from having a huge number of loop designations or short state highway segments that could be put into the BI bucket.  That designation tells you something about what the road is.  If you call it Loop/State Highway 541, that might be a short route through a town that leads back to the Interstate, or it might be some other kind of road somewhere else, or one that splits off the Interstate going into town, and then turns south downtown.  If a road probably wouldn't exist if not for a specific local purpose useful to people unfamiliar with the area, such as leading into and back from a business district or a park, I like the idea of that road having a particular kind of designation.  In past times, the old US highway often served as the business route.  I don't care for that as much because it doesn't tell you whether the road leads back to the Interstate.

The placekeeper function can be counterproductive if abused.  I'm thinking of BI 20 B and D in Texas.  If there happened to be a parallel road running all the way from Pecos to Monahans, that would be much too long for a single business route if they were just renumbering segments to minimize designations.  There's a small version of this where the old route runs from Pyote to Monahans.  To prevent that problem, only the part in Monahans is a business route, while the segment through Pyote and Wickett is Spur 57.  When US 80 was decommissioned, TXDot saw the wisdom of having a business route only in the larger town and didn't abuse the placekeeper function in a way that would keep traffic off the Interstate longer than necessary, so they built a connector to I-20 west of Monahans and gave the west segment of the old route a different number.  Also, a "business route" designation is misused when applied to an old parallel route that doesn't have any actual business along it.  As an example of avoiding this kind of misuse, TxDOT renumbered an old segment of I-10 as Loop 293 in Bakersfield because there's nothing along it.  (Also, I'd never noticed before, but it doesn't even connect to I-10 on the west side, you have to use FM 11 to get back on the Interstate.)  I suspect that a business route running many miles through a huge city is a bad idea, and that using other signage is more appropriate.  There are ways the designation can be used poorly, and there are ways it can be used well.

I'm not opposed to business interstates, but I've never had any particular use for them since there's so few in the Northeast.

The closest ones to me would seem to be in Michigan, and I can probably count on one hand the number of states east of the Mississippi where they're currently used: besides Michigan, you've got Illinois, South Carolina, Georgia... any I'm missing?

Quote from: webny99 on February 04, 2021, 11:42:17 AM
The closest ones to me would seem to be in Michigan, and I can probably count on one hand the number of states east of the Mississippi where they're currently used: besides Michigan, you've got Illinois, South Carolina, Georgia... any I'm missing?

Pennsylvania (just one), Kentucky, and North Carolina. Two in Ohio, as well.

Here's a business route that I've been on while living in the St Louis area, but didn't really think of it as a business route: BL 70 in St Charles. Its two ends on I-70 are a mile away from each other, at MO 94 (exit 228) (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7744421,-90.5080568,3a,89.8y,310.99h,99.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBu7H0TC9J2tc5kEyRM-RGw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) and 5th St (exit 229B) (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7674427,-90.4905974,3a,64.3y,292.53h,94.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZT383n8Xp7m6man-cGVS-A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). The routing it uses, from west to east, is MO 94 -> independent section of First Capitol Dr -> 5th St. There's a sign that tells MO 94 to turn right onto First Capitol (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.784442,-90.4985072,3a,21.9y,65.96h,90.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sucN7zegACH785qRIkd6Rzg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), which doesn't sign BL 70 even though it also turns right there. It's not signed on reassurance shields at all; the only signage of BL 70 is on the two I-70 interchanges.

So yea, this designation is pointless as no one calls it by that number, and it's not even signed in most of its route.

Quote from: oscar on February 04, 2021, 12:05:37 PM
Pennsylvania (just one)

Two, now.  I-83 in York and I-376 near the Pittsburgh airport.

Considering the nearest one is 250 miles away (other than a couple of stray Business I-495 shields in the Lowell, MA area about 110 miles away and a BL 84 in the Danbury area that either predates me or was eliminated in my infancy), I can't say one way or the other.

Not so much to rehash a topic that has been dormant but I am of the belief that Interstate Business Loops serve 2 functions. First and foremost as a direct link into a business district for a city that the interstate bypasses as others have mentioned. But secondly, I see them serving as an Alternate purpose to the Interstate in cases of emergency. Yes it is going to be slower. However, if you are not familiar with the area and the interstate is closed due to an accident, which I saw twice on my recent trip down to Charlotte, it would be helpful knowing how to get back onto the interstate.  That's why I am in favor of them being created as much as possible. Granted, it really would not work well in the more rural areas.

I can buy the "use as an alternative" statement. But I have found that business interstates, or even business state and US routes, oftentimes aren't the most convenient for services like gas and restaurants.  Rarely do I have any desire to go to the "central business district" of a town I am travelling around because often they don't provide much.

With the advent of mobile phones with data, they are useless.

Quote from: hobsini2 on January 05, 2024, 09:18:34 AM
However, if you are not familiar with the area and the interstate is closed due to an accident ... it would be helpful knowing how to get back onto the interstate.

Unfortunately, how many motorists actually know the difference between these two shields (especially when dealing with a traffic jam):

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Business_Loop_blank.svg/240px-Business_Loop_blank.svg.png)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Business_Spur_blank.svg/240px-Business_Spur_blank.svg.png)

Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 05, 2024, 10:33:05 AM
With the advent of mobile phones with data, they are useless.

At least in Illinois (whose state laws I'm most familiar with), that would only be legal if the driver (a) has the vehicle in Park or Neutral, or (b) is parked on the shoulder.  As I read things, under Illinois state law, there is no way to legally use your smartphone for alternate directions while crawling through a traffic jam at 5 mph.

It was probably stated earlier, but my opinion is that the green interstate shield should be redesignated for toll routes and that business I-XX signage should change color or go away altogether.  There was a point in time where it made sense for smaller towns that were being bypassed to indicate commercial areas that could be accessed from the interstate, but that time has long since passed and most traveler businesses have been relocated nearer to interchanges at any rate.

Quote from: I-35 on January 05, 2024, 11:38:45 AM
It was probably stated earlier, but my opinion is that the green interstate shield should be redesignated for toll routes and that business I-XX signage should change color or go away altogether.  There was a point in time where it made sense for smaller towns that were being bypassed to indicate commercial areas that could be accessed from the interstate, but that time has long since passed and most traveler businesses have been relocated nearer to interchanges at any rate.

If you were going to redesign the interstate shield for toll routes, I would just reverse the blue and red on the current shield. Green is a bad color for signage because it generally means a guide sign.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 11:43:16 AM
Green is a bad color for signage because it generally means a guide sign.

Or just reverse the existing colors.

(https://i.imgur.com/avElWj7.png)(https://i.imgur.com/EcuPwdD.png)

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 11:43:16 AM
Green is a bad color for signage because it generally means a guide sign.

Or a California state highway.

Quote from: oscar on January 25, 2021, 11:43:29 AM
With some exceptions, such as I-80BL in Sacramento (which could be replaced by signing CA 51) and other freeway-level BLs, they aren't particularly useful for me.

It used to be, especially in California, that communities bypassed by a new Interstate begged for a business route for the old alignment. That seems to have gone away, with route signage disappearing on existing routes. Logo signs, and smartphones, are better ways to find traveler services.

Quote from: SkyPesos on January 25, 2021, 11:35:34 AM
From looking at a map, NC probably has the most useful business routes for me: Business I-40 in Winston Salem and Business I-85 in High Point and Greensboro.

BL 40 in Winston-Salem is toast. Most or all of its signage has been removed.

Business 80 used to share the west end of US-50 and I-305 in Sacramento prior to 2016.  That was until Caltrans renovated US-50 that they removed Business 80 references as being co-signed with US-50. I don't think Business Routes are useful to current Sacramento area residents. Also there's been rumors of an I-7 and I-9 being cosigned with CA-99 from Sacramento to ridge route for some time. CA-51 to be renamed as CA-X09 or CA-x07 gets mentioned.
(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images080/bl-080_eb_exit_001_10.jpg)

(https://www.aaroads.com/california/images080/bl-080_wb_exit_004a_05.jpg)

The entire concept is a holdover from a time when the interstate system was just coming on line and businesses all over the US were finding themselves bypassed to through traffic. There was pushback about it and this was the best the FHA could do. The BR/BL badging never really did much, and I'd call the concept an overall swing and a miss and something that is not needed today. But it still exists and here we are.

Depends by location, but I think a combination of AADT, population, and navigational ease could be used to determine if a business route is warranted.

For instance, Business 95 in Fayetteville, NC and Business 20 in Florence, SC make sense because they provide a straight shot into the city, and they are pretty easy to follow.

Business 40 in Amarillo and Business 70 in Denver could probably be deleted. In both cases, you're better off staying on the main Interstate. In Amarillo, Business 40 takes you more out of the way versus staying on I-40.

And there are some business routes that are close enough to the parent Interstate where you could find your way back to the Interstate without the business route. Groom, TX is an example of this.

I think a business route would be warranted when:

1.) The parent interstate does not enter the city limits

2.) The business route provides a direct and convenient route between the parent interstate and the city limits or city center

3.) For small towns, business routes should, at a minimum, direct Interstate travelers to food, fuel, and lodging

Quote from: PColumbus73 on January 05, 2024, 01:05:59 PM
Business 40 in Amarillo and Business 70 in Denver could probably be deleted. In both cases, you're better off staying on the main Interstate. In Amarillo, Business 40 takes you more out of the way versus staying on I-40.

But both of them go through the city's downtown, which is exactly what BLs are for.  You aren't "better off" staying on the main Interstate if your goal is the central business district.

I just don't understand the reason to use a BL to go to the central business district of a city like Denver. I doubt anyone actually does that.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 01:14:05 PM
I just don't understand the reason to use a BL to go to the central business district of a city like Denver. I doubt anyone actually does that.

We used to do that all the time when I was growing up in western Kansas.  We'd make a couple of trips into Denver each year, to shop for things we couldn't find in the smaller towns.  We'd get off I-70 at Colfax, hit some retail places in Aurora, and then keep going into Denver.

Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2024, 11:37:29 AM

Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 05, 2024, 10:33:05 AM
With the advent of mobile phones with data, they are useless.

At least in Illinois (whose state laws I'm most familiar with), that would only be legal if the driver (a) has the vehicle in Park or Neutral, or (b) is parked on the shoulder.  As I read things, under Illinois state law, there is no way to legally use your smartphone for alternate directions while crawling through a traffic jam at 5 mph.

"Hey Google. Give me directions to the closest gas station," is legal.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 05, 2024, 01:35:19 PM
"Hey Google. Give me directions to the closest gas station," is legal.

Is Google Assistant a stock app?  I don't think my wife or I have ever had it.  Maybe it's there and we've just never used it?  Well, whatever, point taken.

Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2024, 01:31:45 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 01:14:05 PM
I just don't understand the reason to use a BL to go to the central business district of a city like Denver. I doubt anyone actually does that.

We used to do that all the time when I was growing up in western Kansas.  We'd make a couple of trips into Denver each year, to shop for things we couldn't find in the smaller towns.  We'd get off I-70 at Colfax, hit some retail places in Aurora, and then keep going into Denver.

I should have said, I doubt anyone does that now.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 01:50:19 PM

Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2024, 01:31:45 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 01:14:05 PM
I just don't understand the reason to use a BL to go to the central business district of a city like Denver. I doubt anyone actually does that.

We used to do that all the time when I was growing up in western Kansas.  We'd make a couple of trips into Denver each year, to shop for things we couldn't find in the smaller towns.  We'd get off I-70 at Colfax, hit some retail places in Aurora, and then keep going into Denver.

I should have said, I doubt anyone does that now.

It was only 25 years ago.  What's changed?

Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2024, 01:12:59 PM

Quote from: PColumbus73 on January 05, 2024, 01:05:59 PM
Business 40 in Amarillo and Business 70 in Denver could probably be deleted. In both cases, you're better off staying on the main Interstate. In Amarillo, Business 40 takes you more out of the way versus staying on I-40.

But both of them go through the city's downtown, which is exactly what BLs are for.  You aren't "better off" staying on the main Interstate if your goal is the central business district.

Regarding Amarillo, if you're going to downtown (the central business district) it's faster to stay on I-40 to I-27. And since I-27 ends in downtown Amarillo, it's a better route into the central business district than Business 40.

Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2024, 01:57:14 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 01:50:19 PM

Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2024, 01:31:45 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 01:14:05 PM
I just don't understand the reason to use a BL to go to the central business district of a city like Denver. I doubt anyone actually does that.

We used to do that all the time when I was growing up in western Kansas.  We'd make a couple of trips into Denver each year, to shop for things we couldn't find in the smaller towns.  We'd get off I-70 at Colfax, hit some retail places in Aurora, and then keep going into Denver.

I should have said, I doubt anyone does that now.

It was only 25 years ago.  What's changed?

People have phones, etc that give them directions.

The purpose of business interstates is to have an easy route through town that you're likely to find restaurants, gas stations, and hotels along. If a town is big enough that it has more than three exits from the Interstate that have that kind of business, there's probably not a whole lot of point in having a business interstate there.

Business interstates are more pointful in towns like Holbrook AZ, where the "main route" through town may not be otherwise obvious, and the town is small enough that there's not likely to be useful businesses on any random street you select.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 04:07:14 PM
People have phones, etc that give them directions.

Why have any road signs or route numbers at all then? People have phones to tell them where to turn.

Quote from: PColumbus73 on January 05, 2024, 01:05:59 PM
For instance, Business 95 in Fayetteville, NC and Business 20 in Florence, SC make sense because they provide a straight shot into the city, and they are pretty easy to follow.

I came back into this thread just to say this. Business 20 is like a couple extra miles of I-20 with traffic lights.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 04:07:14 PM

Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2024, 01:57:14 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 01:50:19 PM

Quote from: kphoger on January 05, 2024, 01:31:45 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 01:14:05 PM
I just don't understand the reason to use a BL to go to the central business district of a city like Denver. I doubt anyone actually does that.

We used to do that all the time when I was growing up in western Kansas.  We'd make a couple of trips into Denver each year, to shop for things we couldn't find in the smaller towns.  We'd get off I-70 at Colfax, hit some retail places in Aurora, and then keep going into Denver.

I should have said, I doubt anyone does that now.

It was only 25 years ago.  What's changed?

People have phones, etc that give them directions.

We had maps back then, and personal experience, and figured out our own directions.  The places we went in the Denver area were best reached by taking I-70-BL.  Same now as it was then, smartphones or no smartphones.

Quote from: I-35 on January 05, 2024, 11:38:45 AM
It was probably stated earlier, but my opinion is that the green interstate shield should be redesignated for toll routes and that business I-XX signage should change color or go away altogether.  There was a point in time where it made sense for smaller towns that were being bypassed to indicate commercial areas that could be accessed from the interstate, but that time has long since passed and most traveler businesses have been relocated nearer to interchanges at any rate.

I think this about sums up the business interstate situation.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 11:43:16 AM
If you were going to redesign the interstate shield for toll routes, I would just reverse the blue and red on the current shield. Green is a bad color for signage because it generally means a guide sign.

I don't know if swapping the colors is different enough to be clearly distinguishing:
(https://i.imgur.com/JgMacsu.png)

There needs to be *some* way to deal with what happens when an Interstate standard route is built that bypasses an older route that is no longer compliant with standards, such as Business I-85 in Spartanburg SC. That is, in my opinion, the best use case for Business Interstate designations in the East or at least the Southeast.

In North Carolina, some of them were removed in favor the concurrent US routes.

I think business routes have their usefulness for small to midsize towns, but for cities like Denver, a business Interstate route leading into downtown is not quite as important.

Quote from: ran4sh on January 05, 2024, 06:54:10 PM
There needs to be *some* way to deal with what happens when an Interstate standard route is built that bypasses an older route that is no longer compliant with standards, such as Business I-85 in Spartanburg SC. That is, in my opinion, the best use case for Business Interstate designations in the East or at least the Southeast.

The proper way to handle that is to make it a state route, perhaps using an x85 number if one is available. An additional benefit of this is if it ever gets upgraded back to Interstate status, it can keep the same number.

Using a business Interstate for a freeway is wholly inappropriate, as it falsely advertises that a traveler can expect to access travel-related businesses by taking that exit, when that is not the case.

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 05, 2024, 07:33:13 PM

Quote from: ran4sh on January 05, 2024, 06:54:10 PM
There needs to be *some* way to deal with what happens when an Interstate standard route is built that bypasses an older route that is no longer compliant with standards, such as Business I-85 in Spartanburg SC. That is, in my opinion, the best use case for Business Interstate designations in the East or at least the Southeast.

The proper way to handle that is to make it a state route, perhaps using an x85 number if one is available. An additional benefit of this is if it ever gets upgraded back to Interstate status, it can keep the same number.

Using a business Interstate for a freeway is wholly inappropriate, as it falsely advertises that a traveler can expect to access travel-related businesses by taking that exit, when that is not the case.

I think Business 85 is fine through Spartanburg, there is food, fuel and lodging located along it so it would meet the criteria for travel-related businesses.

I don't see Business 85 becoming an actual Interstate again, there's too many businesses along the frontage that ROW acquisition would be expensive. I think converting it into an expressway or boulevard would be a good idea.

Quote from: PColumbus73 on January 05, 2024, 08:26:56 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on January 05, 2024, 07:33:13 PM

Quote from: ran4sh on January 05, 2024, 06:54:10 PM
There needs to be *some* way to deal with what happens when an Interstate standard route is built that bypasses an older route that is no longer compliant with standards, such as Business I-85 in Spartanburg SC. That is, in my opinion, the best use case for Business Interstate designations in the East or at least the Southeast.

The proper way to handle that is to make it a state route, perhaps using an x85 number if one is available. An additional benefit of this is if it ever gets upgraded back to Interstate status, it can keep the same number.

Using a business Interstate for a freeway is wholly inappropriate, as it falsely advertises that a traveler can expect to access travel-related businesses by taking that exit, when that is not the case.

I think Business 85 is fine through Spartanburg, there is food, fuel and lodging located along it so it would meet the criteria for travel-related businesses.

I don't see Business 85 becoming an actual Interstate again, there's too many businesses along the frontage that ROW acquisition would be expensive. I think converting it into an expressway or boulevard would be a good idea.

Besides, when you approach either endpoint (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.9635314,-82.0385775,3a,75y,87.83h,93.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srWRQFEK1fLvezwSlROOELQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) on I-85 (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.9714718,-82.0064019,3a,75y,352.47h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s2B6x3IzHW8CbHYNZAyc4Fg!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D2B6x3IzHW8CbHYNZAyc4Fg%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D352.471%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu), you get the words "FREEWAY LOOP" added to the right of the BL 85 shield on BGS's to let you know that it still has interchanges, even though it really makes no sense to be done that way. Both iterations of BL 40 in NC were also the same way, but thankfully they've been removed for both a US route and mainline I-40.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 11:43:16 AM

Quote from: I-35 on January 05, 2024, 11:38:45 AM
It was probably stated earlier, but my opinion is that the green interstate shield should be redesignated for toll routes and that business I-XX signage should change color or go away altogether.  There was a point in time where it made sense for smaller towns that were being bypassed to indicate commercial areas that could be accessed from the interstate, but that time has long since passed and most traveler businesses have been relocated nearer to interchanges at any rate.

If you were going to redesign the interstate shield for toll routes, I would just reverse the blue and red on the current shield. Green is a bad color for signage because it generally means a guide sign.

Actually, since the Feds recognize Purple as the color to designate an electronic tollway, why not just use that? White on Purple would stand out.

Quote from: hobsini2 on January 06, 2024, 11:55:15 AM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 11:43:16 AM

Quote from: I-35 on January 05, 2024, 11:38:45 AM
It was probably stated earlier, but my opinion is that the green interstate shield should be redesignated for toll routes and that business I-XX signage should change color or go away altogether.  There was a point in time where it made sense for smaller towns that were being bypassed to indicate commercial areas that could be accessed from the interstate, but that time has long since passed and most traveler businesses have been relocated nearer to interchanges at any rate.

If you were going to redesign the interstate shield for toll routes, I would just reverse the blue and red on the current shield. Green is a bad color for signage because it generally means a guide sign.

Actually, since the Feds recognize Purple as the color to designate an electronic tollway, why not just use that? White on Purple would stand out.

Not to red-green colorblind people.

I wish we had some. I believe the one closest to me is all the way in Pennsylvania.

I grew up in Massachusetts, which doesn't have any roads signed as business routes, but it does have a lot of alternate routes with an A suffix. There are two things to note about them. First, many roads have alternates in several places, and they all use the same A suffix, rather than A, B, C,  which to me seems entirely reasonable, as they all represent old alignments of the same road, which can be thought of as having an invisible concurrency with the main road between the alternate roads. Second, they are all state highways, signed as such, so they don't need to ask AASHTO for permission to number them that way.

In Massachusetts, most alternates are associated with state routes, but US-1, US-6, and US-20 all have state route alternates. No Interstates do, but I see no reason why the logic couldn't be extended to Interstates when they bypass a town leaving only the main drag through the town center. That would be unlikely to happen in Massachusetts, because Interstates were never built over older roads, but were always built along completely new alignments where there were few properties to condemn (which is why there are no BRs there). But when I think of all the BRs along, say, I-10 or I-40 out west, I don't know why they couldn't call the BRs route 40A, and sign them as either state routes or county routes.

Even as a young child I was aware that A meant an alternate route that left the main route for a while and ultimately came back to it. That's one of the two guarantees implied by a "business loop", the other being that they have business on them. Perhaps they could use B as a suffix instead for those, and reserve A for old alignments that have few businesses. But the main point is that multiple loops from the same road wouldn't need sequential letter suffixes, because they don't represent confusing numbering conflicts.

The main problem with that suggestion is that businesses often close and the DOT or other agency doesn't end up updating the route designations to reflect that.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 06, 2024, 05:58:40 PM
I wish we had some. I believe the one closest to me is all the way in Pennsylvania.

What benefit would they provide you other than novelty?

Quote from: sparker on January 26, 2021, 12:14:17 AM
It seems like the most common rationale for business Interstates is to serve as some level (usually minimal) of compensation to a bypassed town to direct traffic to businesses somewhat dependent upon a steady traffic stream.  Almost invariably the loops are along the former signed highway, regardless of whether much of the town was served by that highway or not.  If that were less of a common configuration, and the business-loop concept expanded to serve actual extant business areas either on or off the former through highway, there might be a real reason to post such things.  As an example, Sioux Falls, SD has business routes decidedly not on former US 16 and US 77 -- and the times I've been through the town I've managed to find decent dining along those routes, particularly "Spur 29" on 41st Street.  Creative thinking regarding these things might be the key to successful biz-loop/spur deployment.

To me, this seems like the only justification for the existence of BL 35 in Clear Lake, Iowa, a city dependent on some tourist money. There don't seem to be many actual businesses on that route, and the ones that are on it are on US 18.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on January 05, 2024, 06:45:08 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on January 05, 2024, 11:43:16 AM
If you were going to redesign the interstate shield for toll routes, I would just reverse the blue and red on the current shield. Green is a bad color for signage because it generally means a guide sign.

I don't know if swapping the colors is different enough to be clearly distinguishing:
(https://i.imgur.com/JgMacsu.png)

Red shouldn't be used for a route shield background.

---

Quote from: pderocco on January 06, 2024, 09:10:04 PM
... an alternate route that left the main route for a while and ultimately came back to it. That's one of the two guarantees implied by a "business loop", the other being that they have business on them.

Glenrio, NM/TX

Why not red?

Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2024, 11:16:51 AM
Red shouldn't be used for a route shield background.

Quote from: Rothman on January 08, 2024, 11:27:35 AM
Why not red?

Because . . .

Quote from: FHWA — United States Road Symbol Signs
Preface

The use of red on signs is limited to stop, yield, and prohibition signs.

Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2024, 11:58:35 AM

Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2024, 11:16:51 AM
Red shouldn't be used for a route shield background.

Quote from: Rothman on January 08, 2024, 11:27:35 AM
Why not red?

Because . . .

Quote from: FHWA — United States Road Symbol Signs
Preface

The use of red on signs is limited to stop, yield, and prohibition signs.

Oh.  Reasons.

Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2024, 11:58:35 AM

Quote from: kphoger on January 08, 2024, 11:16:51 AM
Red shouldn't be used for a route shield background.

Quote from: Rothman on January 08, 2024, 11:27:35 AM
Why not red?

Because . . .

Quote from: FHWA — United States Road Symbol Signs
Preface

The use of red on signs is limited to stop, yield, and prohibition signs.

New Zealand says hi.

Quote from: vdeane on January 08, 2024, 12:50:14 PM
New Zealand says hi.

Well yeah, obviously US standards don't apply outside the US.

Quote from: JayhawkCO on January 07, 2024, 12:19:38 AM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on January 06, 2024, 05:58:40 PM
I wish we had some. I believe the one closest to me is all the way in Pennsylvania.

What benefit would they provide you other than novelty?

Useful paths through town. Not everyone wants to use GPS every time they're just looking for something to eat.

Quote from: US 89 on January 26, 2021, 11:30:17 AM
From a western perspective, I tend to like business routes because they 1) tell me a town is fairly substantial and is likely to have anything I might need, and 2) provide a signed surface through route if I do find myself off the freeway in such a town.

In Minnesota, they also tend to be established after locally-owned businesses lobby for them. So they can also tell me there are local businesses that are not part of a national chain in the town looking for patronage.

I noticed they are signed pretty well in South Dakota; however, they are not on the South Dakota highway map.