AARoads Forum

National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: TheGrassGuy on February 12, 2021, 02:44:28 PM

Title: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: TheGrassGuy on February 12, 2021, 02:44:28 PM
I'll go first:

Exit 18E to stay on the I-95 / NJTP Eastern Spur (in contrast to Exit 16E for the Lincoln Tunnel)
Exit 1A for I-295 in DC (which is kinda gray because you're on another highway numbered 295; in contrast to Exit 1B-C for I-695)
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: kphoger on February 12, 2021, 02:49:16 PM
Quote from: TheGrassGuy on February 12, 2021, 02:44:28 PM
to stay on

I can't remember:  What does the current MUTCD have to say about that type of situation?
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: ran4sh on February 12, 2021, 03:09:01 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2021, 02:49:16 PM
Quote from: TheGrassGuy on February 12, 2021, 02:44:28 PM
to stay on

I can't remember:  What does the current MUTCD have to say about that type of situation?

Nothing, despite the fact that a lot of content relating to toll roads was added in the 2009 edition.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: CtrlAltDel on February 12, 2021, 07:27:46 PM
Do mainline "exits" on TOTSOs count? Like this one:

(https://i.imgur.com/1zelcj2.png)
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: hotdogPi on February 12, 2021, 08:51:09 PM
Cross-posted from another thread:

Quote from: SectorZ on February 12, 2021, 03:30:35 PM
Quote from: bob7374 on February 12, 2021, 11:46:28 AM
Work started on MA 128 last night in Gloucester, from monitoring Waze reports they got at least to MA 133 (New Exit 53). Here's an article that appeared in yesterday's online Gloucester Times:
https://www.gloucestertimes.com/news/local_news/route-128-exits-to-be-renumbered-thursday-night/article_d4d6036f-2b93-5f00-aca1-fb0d8c315c86.html (https://www.gloucestertimes.com/news/local_news/route-128-exits-to-be-renumbered-thursday-night/article_d4d6036f-2b93-5f00-aca1-fb0d8c315c86.html)

Curious, since it will be handled near the end, is this sign just coming down given 3/4 of it is make-believe anyways...

https://goo.gl/maps/c6YrUsM1DV5379Tq7

(14 is a real exit. 11 and 10 are rotaries, and 9 is at-grade. The numbers do not go any lower.)
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: SkyPesos on February 12, 2021, 09:39:53 PM
Exits 101A and 101B are marked for the entrance ramps to I-270 on US 23.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: TheGrassGuy on February 13, 2021, 11:22:14 AM
GSP Exit 0 (and formerly 9, 10, and 11)
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: kenarmy on February 15, 2021, 01:50:47 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3447259,-88.7666327,3a,86.9y,267.61h,79.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT6QrZd8Wju6iRHqzn5xJsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I-20 just keeps straight..
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 02:03:14 PM
Quote from: kenarmy on February 15, 2021, 01:50:47 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3447259,-88.7666327,3a,86.9y,267.61h,79.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT6QrZd8Wju6iRHqzn5xJsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I-20 just keeps straight..

meh

Looks like it kind of goes off to the right there.  At any rate, why make one highway the "exit" over the other?  Seems to me like six one way, half a dozen the other.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: jp the roadgeek on February 15, 2021, 02:18:33 PM
MA 140 Exit 1 (former and current) and Exits 20 A-B (former 12 A-B).  The first is an at-grade intersection; the last two have entrance ramps from signalized intersections.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: kenarmy on February 15, 2021, 02:34:20 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 02:03:14 PM
Quote from: kenarmy on February 15, 2021, 01:50:47 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3447259,-88.7666327,3a,86.9y,267.61h,79.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT6QrZd8Wju6iRHqzn5xJsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I-20 just keeps straight..

meh

Looks like it kind of goes off to the right there.  At any rate, why make one highway the "exit" over the other?  Seems to me like six one way, half a dozen the other.

I guess it is a slight right, but 59 is the one that is exiting, or it's the one that has the most movement. If they just removed the exit tab it would be much better.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 02:58:58 PM
Quote from: kenarmy on February 15, 2021, 02:34:20 PM

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 02:03:14 PM

Quote from: kenarmy on February 15, 2021, 01:50:47 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3447259,-88.7666327,3a,86.9y,267.61h,79.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT6QrZd8Wju6iRHqzn5xJsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I-20 just keeps straight..

meh

Looks like it kind of goes off to the right there.  At any rate, why make one highway the "exit" over the other?  Seems to me like six one way, half a dozen the other.

I guess it is a slight right, but 59 is the one that is exiting, or it's the one that has the most movement. If they just removed the exit tab it would be much better.

I believe that would be MUTCD-noncompliant.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: SkyPesos on February 15, 2021, 03:18:29 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 02:58:58 PM
Quote from: kenarmy on February 15, 2021, 02:34:20 PM

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 02:03:14 PM

Quote from: kenarmy on February 15, 2021, 01:50:47 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3447259,-88.7666327,3a,86.9y,267.61h,79.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT6QrZd8Wju6iRHqzn5xJsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I-20 just keeps straight..

meh

Looks like it kind of goes off to the right there.  At any rate, why make one highway the "exit" over the other?  Seems to me like six one way, half a dozen the other.

I guess it is a slight right, but 59 is the one that is exiting, or it's the one that has the most movement. If they just removed the exit tab it would be much better.

I believe that would be MUTCD-noncompliant.
There's a couple of locations where one movement isn't signed as an exit at the end of a concurrency. Here's the north split of I-57/I-70 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1479518,-88.5145444,3a,69.1y,66.09h,85.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svKjtms-7R4aVA4Kz-UW-tw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) as an example. If it had an exit number, the I-70 movement would be signed as exit 163, since this concurrency uses I-57 exit numbers.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 03:33:20 PM
Right.  I haven't personally looked into the details, but what I've gathered from the forum is that it didn't use to be a requirement to sign an exit number at a system divergence.  With the most recent edition, however, it is a requirement.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: SkyPesos on February 15, 2021, 03:52:35 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 03:33:20 PM
Right.  I haven't personally looked into the details, but what I've gathered from the forum is that it didn't use to be a requirement to sign an exit number at a system divergence.  With the most recent edition, however, it is a requirement.
Which edition are you referring to, the 2009 one or the currently in-proposal one? The I-57/70 example I had above was installed when their concurrency was getting widened to 6 lanes. Think that project was done in 2016 or 2017, correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: SEWIGuy on February 15, 2021, 03:55:45 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 02:58:58 PM
Quote from: kenarmy on February 15, 2021, 02:34:20 PM

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 02:03:14 PM

Quote from: kenarmy on February 15, 2021, 01:50:47 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3447259,-88.7666327,3a,86.9y,267.61h,79.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT6QrZd8Wju6iRHqzn5xJsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I-20 just keeps straight..

meh

Looks like it kind of goes off to the right there.  At any rate, why make one highway the "exit" over the other?  Seems to me like six one way, half a dozen the other.

I guess it is a slight right, but 59 is the one that is exiting, or it's the one that has the most movement. If they just removed the exit tab it would be much better.

I believe that would be MUTCD-noncompliant.


I am assuming that I-20 gets the exit number because the I-20/59 duplex from the exit to the AL line follows the I-59 numbering.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 04:07:38 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 15, 2021, 03:52:35 PM

Quote from: kphoger on February 15, 2021, 03:33:20 PM
Right.  I haven't personally looked into the details, but what I've gathered from the forum is that it didn't use to be a requirement to sign an exit number at a system divergence.  With the most recent edition, however, it is a requirement.

Which edition are you referring to, the 2009 one or the currently in-proposal one? The I-57/70 example I had above was installed when their concurrency was getting widened to 6 lanes. Think that project was done in 2016 or 2017, correct me if I'm wrong.

errr....  OK, I tried to find a thread, but now I can't find it.  Someone, help me out here.

Well, anyway, according to the 2009 edition, the goal is to establish "continuity of interchange numbering ... for only one of the routes" (see §2E.31 ¶16 (https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2e.htm#section2E31_para16)).  In this case, that route appears to be I-59.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: interstatefan990 on February 15, 2021, 06:30:34 PM
I-87 Exit 8 is more of the end of the I-287 concurrency than an exit. More lanes branch off as 287 than continue on the "mainline" . The exit also stays at the same grade while 87 heads slightly uphill going into the T-interchange:

https://goo.gl/maps/zSidA1Q97qHAtr647
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: TheGrassGuy on February 17, 2021, 11:45:34 AM
Quote from: kenarmy on February 15, 2021, 01:50:47 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3447259,-88.7666327,3a,86.9y,267.61h,79.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT6QrZd8Wju6iRHqzn5xJsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I-20 just keeps straight..

Doesn't count because it uses I-59 numbering.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: kenarmy on February 17, 2021, 11:57:20 AM
Quote from: TheGrassGuy on February 17, 2021, 11:45:34 AM
Quote from: kenarmy on February 15, 2021, 01:50:47 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3447259,-88.7666327,3a,86.9y,267.61h,79.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT6QrZd8Wju6iRHqzn5xJsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I-20 just keeps straight..

Doesn't count because it uses I-59 numbering.

I understand.  But you still aren't exiting.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: kphoger on February 17, 2021, 11:59:13 AM
Quote from: kenarmy on February 17, 2021, 11:57:20 AM

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on February 17, 2021, 11:45:34 AM

Quote from: kenarmy on February 15, 2021, 01:50:47 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3447259,-88.7666327,3a,86.9y,267.61h,79.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT6QrZd8Wju6iRHqzn5xJsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I-20 just keeps straight..

Doesn't count because it uses I-59 numbering.

I understand.  But you still aren't exiting.

Yes, you are.  You're exiting I-59.  The angle of the roadway doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: roadman65 on February 17, 2021, 12:02:48 PM
Anthony Wayne Recreation area on the Palisades Parkway in Rockland County, NY is a parking lot with no outlet to other roads.

In fact it had no number assigned to it until 1987 when the PIP renumbered its exits to remove Exits 1OA and 14A and give US 6 a number which the split for that route had none.  The recreation area too was assigned one too with that project.

Exit 116 on the Garden State Parkway is an interchange but no exit.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: kenarmy on February 17, 2021, 12:11:38 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 17, 2021, 11:59:13 AM
Quote from: kenarmy on February 17, 2021, 11:57:20 AM

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on February 17, 2021, 11:45:34 AM

Quote from: kenarmy on February 15, 2021, 01:50:47 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@32.3447259,-88.7666327,3a,86.9y,267.61h,79.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sT6QrZd8Wju6iRHqzn5xJsw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I-20 just keeps straight..

Doesn't count because it uses I-59 numbering.

I understand.  But you still aren't exiting.

Yes, you are.  You're exiting I-59.  The angle of the roadway doesn't matter.
Really? Thanks for gathering me.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: kphoger on February 17, 2021, 12:40:58 PM
↓   Are we counting these?   ↓

Quote from: Roadwarriors79 on November 14, 2019, 10:08:49 AM
Arizona does this at its Sunset Point rest area off I-17 (Exit 252). NB signage, then SB signage:


https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1875693,-112.1328324,3a,75y,25.06h,93.84t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIJOaIK4GT6BMRr4w6jgHWg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1983167,-112.1289334,3a,75y,231.4h,77.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svxq2Z2Pznk2VQRgVO26vzA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Quote from: sprjus4 on November 18, 2019, 05:48:40 PM
Exit 880 on I-10 West, Texas Travel Information Center (https://www.google.com/maps/@30.1244925,-93.7081383,3a,48.4y,277.91h,88.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svNQmstDZ40nrVMjA1H5KAQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

I think it's the highest exit number in the United States as well.

Quote from: kphoger on November 19, 2019, 01:13:03 PM
Exit #502
I-35 Southbound
Rest Area / Texas Travel Info Center
(https://goo.gl/maps/LvSqV4PKrhZSq7jN7)
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: PHLBOS on February 17, 2021, 07:01:14 PM
Quote from: 1 on February 12, 2021, 08:51:09 PM
Cross-posted from another thread:

Quote from: SectorZ on February 12, 2021, 03:30:35 PM
Quote from: bob7374 on February 12, 2021, 11:46:28 AM
Work started on MA 128 last night in Gloucester, from monitoring Waze reports they got at least to MA 133 (New Exit 53). Here's an article that appeared in yesterday's online Gloucester Times:
https://www.gloucestertimes.com/news/local_news/route-128-exits-to-be-renumbered-thursday-night/article_d4d6036f-2b93-5f00-aca1-fb0d8c315c86.html (https://www.gloucestertimes.com/news/local_news/route-128-exits-to-be-renumbered-thursday-night/article_d4d6036f-2b93-5f00-aca1-fb0d8c315c86.html)

Curious, since it will be handled near the end, is this sign just coming down given 3/4 of it is make-believe anyways...

https://goo.gl/maps/c6YrUsM1DV5379Tq7

(14 is a real exit. 11 and 10 are rotaries, and 9 is at-grade. The numbers do not go any lower.)
Incorrect regarding Exit 10; such is an at-grade intersection with MA 127/Eastern Ave.  For reasons unknown, Blackburn Circle was never assigned an exit number.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: hotdogPi on February 17, 2021, 07:06:00 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on February 17, 2021, 07:01:14 PM
For reasons unknown, Blackburn Circle was never assigned an exit number.

It's not unprecedented. There are two at-grades between Exit 28 and Exit 30 on MA 2, and the cemetery on 128 has no exit number (nor does what I call "Exit 21.05").
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: dvferyance on February 17, 2021, 10:43:02 PM
It no longer exist but I recall the fmr Exit 191 on I-25 in Colorado was more like a quick turnoff then an exit ramp.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: SkyPesos on May 20, 2021, 12:51:24 AM
Found this one while randomly browsing GSV: "Exit" 66A left turn from US 6 WB to I-75 SB (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.350877,-83.6251912,3a,23.8y,220.65h,91.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swjlRf1rSrhHF3otD-Vne-w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). Same with 66B on the EB direction for I-75 NB.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: KCRoadFan on May 20, 2021, 01:37:06 AM
The "Burnsville Split" in Minnesota, where I-35 northbound divides into 35W and 35E.

At that interchange, 35W is signed as Exit 88A (doubtless because 35E continues the exit numbers from I-35, while 35W has its own series of exit numbers).

However, as can be seen from  this Street View (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7364058,-93.2831765,3a,75y,357.87h,96.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svngNK7uMev8bJk_ttFhPSg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), 35W is clearly the dominant roadway, while 35E exits off of it. Because of this (and because 35W came through first - at least, I think so), I think that MNDOT should have given the "default" exit numbers from I-35 to 35W, with 35E using its own numbers.

(In fact, that would be a fun exercise on the "Minnesota Notes" thread or the "Fictional Highways" board: list the exits on 35W and 35E and renumber them as if 35W, rather than 35E, had the "mainline" I-35 exit number sequence assigned to it.)
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: froggie on May 20, 2021, 10:51:12 AM
^ Yes, 35W predates 35E and 35W serves the higher-populated city of the Twin Cities (both reasons why it appears to be more dominant).  But as with the 20/59 example upthread, the mileposts follow 35E, so 35W gets the exit number.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: roadman65 on May 20, 2021, 10:59:23 AM
The exits on the arterial portion of NY 9A in Manhattan uses numbers at major intersections.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: SkyPesos on May 20, 2021, 11:03:15 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on May 20, 2021, 10:59:23 AM
The exits on the arterial portion of NY 9A in Manhattan uses numbers at major intersections.
Doesn't NY do that often? I don't count the I-78 exits in NY as actual exits either.
Title: Re: Numbered "exits" which aren't really exits
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on May 20, 2021, 11:50:03 AM
Quote from: froggie on May 20, 2021, 10:51:12 AM
^ Yes, 35W predates 35E and 35W serves the higher-populated city of the Twin Cities (both reasons why it appears to be more dominant).  But as with the 20/59 example upthread, the mileposts follow 35E, so 35W gets the exit number.

If you flip the script to the Forest Lake split, it's 35W that both has an exit number and is the route that "exits" from I-35. So there's that angle too.