We have a new administration which seems willing to handle transportation and infrastructure issues. One issue that needs addressing is toll roads going cashless and the variety of cashless options. I live in So Cal. FasTrak uses a transponder which I believe is now good through for the entire state, but probably useless outside of CA. I know some other states/toll authorities have regionalized their cashless systems (e.g., EZ Pass) to be functional across several states.
I think this forum would be a good place to discuss the different methods and how easy-to-difficult it would be to have a nationwide system to control this before Apple and Google decide we all need to use their phone apps to pay our tolls. Google Maps has already incorporated paying for transit and parking. It wouldn't be hard to expand this to paying for tolls. I don't think our phones is the way to go, even though it would be simple enough to use phone tracking in association with car ownership to charge the drivers.
Thoughts?
In the future:
Run a red light by 1/10 second? $5 is automatically subtracted from your account. (Blatantly running it subtracts much more.)
Going 70 in a 65 zone? You're paying 5¢ per mile VMT instead of 4¢ per mile. (90 in a 65 is 40¢ per mile.)
Just left a parking space in a crowded area where no parking seems to be available? You have received $4.50, as someone paid $5 for your space.
407 will probably never standardize with any US system because it's a private company and they make money off of leasing transponders
Regarding the OP's final point about apps, I know Virginia has an app available for occasional toll road users, and I understand it may now work in a couple of other states (not all E-ZPass states, however), but that's all I know about it–I haven't had reason to pay attention because I have transponders for the systems I use most (E-ZPass and SunPass).
The info is at http://gotoll.com.
Quote from: 1 on February 26, 2021, 01:32:02 PM
In the future:
Run a red light by 1/10 second? $5 is automatically subtracted from your account. (Blatantly running it subtracts much more.)
if you brake the plane when it's yellow it does not count as an red.
After 1000's of long NFL like reviews the judges just reject them all it's changed to must be red for at least 1 sec to get an ticket.
Quote from: andrepoiy on February 26, 2021, 05:38:47 PM
407 will probably never standardize with any US system because it's a private company and they make money off of leasing transponders
if any thing canada may get one transponder for all.
or they can change an higher but less then the video change foreign transponder fees for EZ-pass and / or bill at an exchange rate that they profit on.
Quote from: skluth on February 26, 2021, 01:25:37 PM
We have a new administration which seems willing to handle transportation and infrastructure issues. One issue that needs addressing is toll roads going cashless and the variety of cashless options. I live in So Cal. FasTrak uses a transponder which I believe is now good through for the entire state, but probably useless outside of CA. I know some other states/toll authorities have regionalized their cashless systems (e.g., EZ Pass) to be functional across several states.
I think this forum would be a good place to discuss the different methods and how easy-to-difficult it would be to have a nationwide system to control this before Apple and Google decide we all need to use their phone apps to pay our tolls. Google Maps has already incorporated paying for transit and parking. It wouldn't be hard to expand this to paying for tolls. I don't think our phones is the way to go, even though it would be simple enough to use phone tracking in association with car ownership to charge the drivers.
Thoughts?
phone apps???
States will tell apple NO F* WAY YOU ARE GETTING 30% of each toll.
Quote from: skluth on February 26, 2021, 01:25:37 PM
We have a new administration which seems willing to handle transportation and infrastructure issues. One issue that needs addressing is toll roads going cashless and the variety of cashless options. I live in So Cal. FasTrak uses a transponder which I believe is now good through for the entire state, but probably useless outside of CA. I know some other states/toll authorities have regionalized their cashless systems (e.g., EZ Pass) to be functional across several states.
I think this forum would be a good place to discuss the different methods and how easy-to-difficult it would be to have a nationwide system to control this before Apple and Google decide we all need to use their phone apps to pay our tolls. Google Maps has already incorporated paying for transit and parking. It wouldn't be hard to expand this to paying for tolls. I don't think our phones is the way to go, even though it would be simple enough to use phone tracking in association with car ownership to charge the drivers.
Thoughts?
It's not Apple and Google that come up with a system on their own; it's the parking and transit authorities that contract with them to develop and allow users to pay.
Thus, the same would need to happen with EZ Pass and other ETC companies and agencies. They would need for your phone to act as a transmitter/receiver to work with their toll lane devices. Obviously, one issue right away would be, if 2 phones in the car have the system, would both be charged at a tolling location?
I see it more likely self driving, fully autonomous or not, car technology will eventually require all cars to be fitted with some form of transponder to communicate with near by vehicles and receive road information. Such a device would serve as the toll transponder also.
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on February 27, 2021, 01:16:29 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on February 26, 2021, 05:38:47 PM
407 will probably never standardize with any US system because it's a private company and they make money off of leasing transponders
if any thing canada may get one transponder for all.
or they can change an higher but less then the video change foreign transponder fees for EZ-pass and / or bill at an exchange rate that they profit on.
I don't think Canada will get one transponder for all, as there are very few tolled roads, and they are all very far from each other. As for charging an EZPass higher, I feel like they would rather charge the camera charge since it's way easier, no need to retrofit any gantries to accept EZPass and etc.
If transponders need to be standardized, bluetooth would be a strong contender. With dirt cheap mass produced hardware and existing application bundle... Then you get a choice of standalone tag it phone app.
Washington, I believe, bills with the license plate as an option. I could see this as being pretty easy to implement elsewhere
Quote from: andrepoiy on February 27, 2021, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on February 27, 2021, 01:16:29 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on February 26, 2021, 05:38:47 PM
407 will probably never standardize with any US system because it's a private company and they make money off of leasing transponders
if any thing canada may get one transponder for all.
or they can change an higher but less then the video change foreign transponder fees for EZ-pass and / or bill at an exchange rate that they profit on.
I don't think Canada will get one transponder for all, as there are very few tolled roads, and they are all very far from each other. As for charging an EZPass higher, I feel like they would rather charge the camera charge since it's way easier, no need to retrofit any gantries to accept EZPass and etc.
I think they use the same transponders as ez-pass
Quote from: OCGuy81 on February 27, 2021, 01:23:54 PM
Washington, I believe, bills with the license plate as an option. I could see this as being pretty easy to implement elsewhere
And totally inconvenient for rentals, long haul drives: not to mention lots if misreads, admin charges and late mail. A stopgap solution at best
NTTA never billed me. FDOT found me 8 months after my Key West trip. Another major issue with toll by plate is cooperation with other states on tracking down drivers.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on February 27, 2021, 03:53:05 PM
NTTA never billed me. FDOT found me 8 months after my Key West trip. Another major issue with toll by plate is cooperation with other states on tracking down drivers.
Get a private company to do it; 407 ETR can bill plates from I think most US states...
Quote from: andrepoiy on February 27, 2021, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on February 27, 2021, 01:16:29 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on February 26, 2021, 05:38:47 PM
407 will probably never standardize with any US system because it's a private company and they make money off of leasing transponders
if any thing canada may get one transponder for all.
or they can change an higher but less then the video change foreign transponder fees for EZ-pass and / or bill at an exchange rate that they profit on.
I don't think Canada will get one transponder for all, as there are very few tolled roads, and they are all very far from each other. As for charging an EZPass higher, I feel like they would rather charge the camera charge since it's way easier, no need to retrofit any gantries to accept EZPass and etc.
The Montréal area has two toll bridges. Even they aren't interoperable with each other - each has a separate transponder that's compatible with nothing else. At least one of them has booths to take cash/credit cards as well. If A-25 and A-30 aren't interoperable with each other, then I don't see how Canada will ever have nation-wide interoperability, or interoperability with the US. And I share your pessimism on ON 407; the company that collects the tolls loves price gouging. Between the high camera charge, the per-trip surcharge
everyone gets, and the transponder rental fees, there's no way to use that road without getting gouged with ridiculous fees - on top of sky high tolls! It's not like the Thruway where a NY E-ZPass is free and gets the lowest toll rates; we didn't even engage in transponder discrimination until a few years ago.
Comparing the Thruway and 407: driving the entire length of the Thruway from NYC to PA (nearly 500 miles) using bill by mail is equivalent to driving ON 407 from the QEW to Brock Road (105 km) with a transponder during the middle of the night.EDIT: My intent was to compare the most expensive charge on the Thruway to how much of ON 407 could be used with the cheapest method. In doing so, I forgot about the one-way toll for the Tappan Zee. Comparing from PA to NYC, the length of ON 407 would be the QEW to Bowmanville Avenue (138 km) during the middle of the night. Notes that this includes neither the Thruway billing fee (not included on their toll calculator) nor the 407 transponder rental fees.
Quote from: OCGuy81 on February 27, 2021, 01:23:54 PM
Washington, I believe, bills with the license plate as an option. I could see this as being pretty easy to implement elsewhere
Most all electronic toll facilities do. The ones that ban users without transponders are odd exceptions (note that I'm not including things like the E-ZPass only exits on the PA Turnpike, which were transponder-only ramps on a closed ticket system that still took cash prior to the pandemic), most of them HOT lanes; the only non-HOT example I can think of is exit 125 of the Garden State Parkway.
Quote from: vdeane on February 27, 2021, 10:50:11 PM
Most all electronic toll facilities do. The ones that ban users without transponders are odd exceptions (note that I'm not including things like the E-ZPass only exits on the PA Turnpike, which were transponder-only ramps on a closed ticket system that still took cash prior to the pandemic), most of them HOT lanes; the only non-HOT example I can think of is exit 125 of the Garden State Parkway.
Doesn't the Pennsylvania Turnpike Northeast Extension (I-476) have at least one similar to this?
And I believe various toll roads around Houston do not accept toll by plate as well.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 28, 2021, 07:21:17 AM
Quote from: vdeane on February 27, 2021, 10:50:11 PM
Most all electronic toll facilities do. The ones that ban users without transponders are odd exceptions (note that I'm not including things like the E-ZPass only exits on the PA Turnpike, which were transponder-only ramps on a closed ticket system that still took cash prior to the pandemic), most of them HOT lanes; the only non-HOT example I can think of is exit 125 of the Garden State Parkway.
Doesn't the Pennsylvania Turnpike Northeast Extension (I-476) have at least one similar to this?
And I believe various toll roads around Houston do not accept toll by plate as well.
Not accepting cash and not doing toll by plate would make life too difficult for out of area drivers and bite into revenue. There may be a few exits for tagholders only, but I don't think it can be implemented in a big system
Quote from: kalvado on February 28, 2021, 07:55:17 AM
Not accepting cash and not doing toll by plate would make life too difficult for out of area drivers and bite into revenue.
Tell that to Houston. I'm not 100% sure on that policy, but to keep it safe I just avoided using the Beltway when traveling through the area, instead just stuck to I-69 and I-10 as traffic wasn't terrible through Downtown at the time.
Quote from: kalvado on February 28, 2021, 07:55:17 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 28, 2021, 07:21:17 AM
Quote from: vdeane on February 27, 2021, 10:50:11 PM
Most all electronic toll facilities do. The ones that ban users without transponders are odd exceptions (note that I'm not including things like the E-ZPass only exits on the PA Turnpike, which were transponder-only ramps on a closed ticket system that still took cash prior to the pandemic), most of them HOT lanes; the only non-HOT example I can think of is exit 125 of the Garden State Parkway.
Doesn't the Pennsylvania Turnpike Northeast Extension (I-476) have at least one similar to this?
And I believe various toll roads around Houston do not accept toll by plate as well.
Not accepting cash and not doing toll by plate would make life too difficult for out of area drivers and bite into revenue. There may be a few exits for tagholders only, but I don't think it can be implemented in a big system
Sure they may lose revenue, but at what cost does it take to capture that revenue?
The vast majority of people who use a "big system" are locals who would likely have a tag of some sort. So you are talking about either locals who don't have tags or people from out of state. Sending out invoices, many of which would be paid eventually, especially in-state drivers who wouldn't get their registrations renewed unless they do so, to tagless drivers is much cheaper than employing people to collect, account, and transport cash to the bank.
So yeah you would forsake some revenue, but you would likely also forsake a bunch of costs as well. Cash handling is a pain in the ass for all sorts of reasons. Likely more profitable in the long run to do without it.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 28, 2021, 07:21:17 AM
Quote from: vdeane on February 27, 2021, 10:50:11 PM
Most all electronic toll facilities do. The ones that ban users without transponders are odd exceptions (note that I'm not including things like the E-ZPass only exits on the PA Turnpike, which were transponder-only ramps on a closed ticket system that still took cash prior to the pandemic), most of them HOT lanes; the only non-HOT example I can think of is exit 125 of the Garden State Parkway.
Doesn't the Pennsylvania Turnpike Northeast Extension (I-476) have at least one similar to this?
And I believe various toll roads around Houston do not accept toll by plate as well.
The PTC has a few E-ZPass only exits across the system, but you'll note that I specifically excluded AET exits on closed ticket systems - such exits would have no way to assess a proper toll from cash users. Prior to the pandemic, the PTC accepted cash; users without E-ZPass would get a ticket, and then when they exit would turn in the ticket and pay the amount specific for their entry/exit points. The PTC's plans to go AET were accelerated during the pandemic.
Contrast that with the barrier/ramp system used by roads like the Garden State Parkway, where the toll is a fixed amount.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 28, 2021, 10:03:55 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 28, 2021, 07:55:17 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 28, 2021, 07:21:17 AM
Quote from: vdeane on February 27, 2021, 10:50:11 PM
Most all electronic toll facilities do. The ones that ban users without transponders are odd exceptions (note that I'm not including things like the E-ZPass only exits on the PA Turnpike, which were transponder-only ramps on a closed ticket system that still took cash prior to the pandemic), most of them HOT lanes; the only non-HOT example I can think of is exit 125 of the Garden State Parkway.
Doesn't the Pennsylvania Turnpike Northeast Extension (I-476) have at least one similar to this?
And I believe various toll roads around Houston do not accept toll by plate as well.
Not accepting cash and not doing toll by plate would make life too difficult for out of area drivers and bite into revenue. There may be a few exits for tagholders only, but I don't think it can be implemented in a big system
Sure they may lose revenue, but at what cost does it take to capture that revenue?
The vast majority of people who use a "big system" are locals who would likely have a tag of some sort. So you are talking about either locals who don't have tags or people from out of state. Sending out invoices, many of which would be paid eventually, especially in-state drivers who wouldn't get their registrations renewed unless they do so, to tagless drivers is much cheaper than employing people to collect, account, and transport cash to the bank.
So yeah you would forsake some revenue, but you would likely also forsake a bunch of costs as well. Cash handling is a pain in the ass for all sorts of reasons. Likely more profitable in the long run to do without it.
They would still need cameras to charge violations to people using the road without a transponder; otherwise, why would anyone get one? And at that point, why not do bill by mail?
Quote from: skluth on February 26, 2021, 01:25:37 PM
We have a new administration which seems willing to handle transportation and infrastructure issues. One issue that needs addressing is toll roads going cashless and the variety of cashless options. I live in So Cal. FasTrak uses a transponder which I believe is now good through for the entire state, but probably useless outside of CA. I know some other states/toll authorities have regionalized their cashless systems (e.g., EZ Pass) to be functional across several states.
I think this forum would be a good place to discuss the different methods and how easy-to-difficult it would be to have a nationwide system to control this before Apple and Google decide we all need to use their phone apps to pay our tolls. Google Maps has already incorporated paying for transit and parking. It wouldn't be hard to expand this to paying for tolls. I don't think our phones is the way to go, even though it would be simple enough to use phone tracking in association with car ownership to charge the drivers.
Thoughts?
First off, the previous administration did take transportation and infrastructure issues pretty seriously.
Second off, using the phone itself for trying to track when you're on toll roads is very problemsome. Bluetooth and the other antennas in the phone are not designed to be read at high speed, the signals are too easy to spoof, and there could be multiple people in a car, so its too easy to turn off. Other technologies like RFID that is used by Sunpass only costs pennies per sticker to manufacture, has no batteries to worry about, etc.
There also has been much progress in the past 4 years integrating systems. You can now buy a pass like the Uni which works in 19 of the 29 states with toll roads, including pretty much the entire east coast, with no monthly fees or anything. Much of the other states offer toll by plate as well. I imagine they will continue to integrate systems over the next couple years
Quote from: vdeane on February 28, 2021, 08:10:26 PM
They would still need cameras to charge violations to people using the road without a transponder; otherwise, why would anyone get one? And at that point, why not do bill by mail?
I was making the assumption that those cameras were in place. And billing by mail still comes with an expense.
One of the great things from the state's point of view about the tags is that the driver pays up-front and it "auto-refreshes" when it gets below a certain figure. I have had about $15 in my Ipass account for six months now. It's like an interest free loan to the Illinois Tollway.
Bill by mail means you have to collect after the fee is charged, and you aren't going to collect 100%. From the state's POV, the tag system is a no brainer.
Quote from: andrepoiy on February 27, 2021, 07:48:50 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on February 27, 2021, 03:53:05 PM
NTTA never billed me. FDOT found me 8 months after my Key West trip. Another major issue with toll by plate is cooperation with other states on tracking down drivers.
Get a private company to do it; 407 ETR can bill plates from I think most US states...
Not when we went. We asked the nice customs person if the 407 accepted EZPass, and they blatantly said "No need to worry, they can't charge US plates because it's hard to get info from the states." Asking my parents about 2 months later (About the time that E470 found us in OK), they confirmed that we never got billed.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on February 27, 2021, 03:53:05 PM
NTTA never billed me. FDOT found me 8 months after my Key West trip. Another major issue with toll by plate is cooperation with other states on tracking down drivers.
Wow, FDOT is persistent! When I lived in Florida, ORT was a brand-spanking new system (to us, at least). We visited family in Colorado after the E470 was made cashless, and my most distinct memory from that trip was my parents freaking out because they had the cash in hand, but the road forced you into the ExpressToll lanes. They thought they were going to get dinged with a toll violation fine. My grandma had to tell them how it works, lol.
Quote from: andrepoiy on February 27, 2021, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on February 27, 2021, 01:16:29 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on February 26, 2021, 05:38:47 PM
407 will probably never standardize with any US system because it's a private company and they make money off of leasing transponders
if any thing canada may get one transponder for all.
or they can change an higher but less then the video change foreign transponder fees for EZ-pass and / or bill at an exchange rate that they profit on.
I don't think Canada will get one transponder for all, as there are very few tolled roads, and they are all very far from each other. As for charging an EZPass higher, I feel like they would rather charge the camera charge since it's way easier, no need to retrofit any gantries to accept EZPass and etc.
That's always the weird thing that a lot of non-Canadian posters on here, where they view Canada and our transportation systems as some unknown amorphous thing. For example, Michigan and NY State have a lot more integration and impact on Ontario than any province besides Québec. It's rather decentralized, and it would make no sense for Ontario to even think about commonality with BC as opposed to, for example, E-Z Pass. (or maybe the Eee-Zed Pass) :-D
Back to the original point, 407ETR Concession has their road until 2098 and the tolling services for 407E (Hwys 407 eastern extension, Hwy 412, and Hwy 418) until 2046 (give or take some years). It's not going to budge, and why should they? It's geographically removed from any other toll agency and politically far removed from them (like, ya know, a whole different country). There's no business case for it and there's no political pressure. Honestly users here are just happy the two roads have one seamless bill, most they don't care and they don't need it to be seamless with US systems.
Quote from: cbeach40 on March 01, 2021, 11:45:27 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on February 27, 2021, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on February 27, 2021, 01:16:29 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on February 26, 2021, 05:38:47 PM
407 will probably never standardize with any US system because it's a private company and they make money off of leasing transponders
if any thing canada may get one transponder for all.
or they can change an higher but less then the video change foreign transponder fees for EZ-pass and / or bill at an exchange rate that they profit on.
I don't think Canada will get one transponder for all, as there are very few tolled roads, and they are all very far from each other. As for charging an EZPass higher, I feel like they would rather charge the camera charge since it's way easier, no need to retrofit any gantries to accept EZPass and etc.
That's always the weird thing that a lot of non-Canadian posters on here, where they view Canada and our transportation systems as some unknown amorphous thing. For example, Michigan and NY State have a lot more integration and impact on Ontario than any province besides Québec. It's rather decentralized, and it would make no sense for Ontario to even think about commonality with BC as opposed to, for example, E-Z Pass. (or maybe the Eee-Zed Pass) :-D
Back to the original point, 407ETR Concession has their road until 2098 and the tolling services for 407E (Hwys 407 eastern extension, Hwy 412, and Hwy 418) until 2046 (give or take some years). It's not going to budge, and why should they? It's geographically removed from any other toll agency and politically far removed from them (like, ya know, a whole different country). There's no business case for it and there's no political pressure. Honestly users here are just happy the two roads have one seamless bill, most they don't care and they don't need it to be seamless with US systems.
They don't
need to, but can they
benefit from being seamless? That is the big question : carrot is more effective than a stick.
Obvious disadvantage is having to play by the rules of a bigger group; obvious advantage - easier collection and lower expenses. If some monopolistic games (charge everyone in every possible way, and fine them otherwise) make them more money that an honest sale - then there is just no carrot.
Sun pass, PikePass, KTag, EZPass, IPass, and other transponders need to be interchangeable if they want a nationwide cash less toll system.
Quote from: UCFKnights on March 01, 2021, 12:08:32 AM
There also has been much progress in the past 4 years integrating systems. You can now buy a pass like the Uni which works in 19 of the 29 states with toll roads, including pretty much the entire east coast, with no monthly fees or anything. Much of the other states offer toll by plate as well. I imagine they will continue to integrate systems over the next couple years
That's just them and NC QuickPass, though. Otherwise, the E-ZPass and SunPass zones are still separate. There was talk of them being interoperable by the end of last year, but that obviously hasn't happened, and it wasn't the first time the two systems have said they would become interoperable and then didn't, either. I'll believe it when I see it.
And given that I already have a transponder (and one with no costs/fees, a rarity), "get a new one" isn't really the interoperability answer I want to hear.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 01, 2021, 09:45:45 AM
Quote from: vdeane on February 28, 2021, 08:10:26 PM
They would still need cameras to charge violations to people using the road without a transponder; otherwise, why would anyone get one? And at that point, why not do bill by mail?
I was making the assumption that those cameras were in place. And billing by mail still comes with an expense.
One of the great things from the state's point of view about the tags is that the driver pays up-front and it "auto-refreshes" when it gets below a certain figure. I have had about $15 in my Ipass account for six months now. It's like an interest free loan to the Illinois Tollway.
Bill by mail means you have to collect after the fee is charged, and you aren't going to collect 100%. From the state's POV, the tag system is a no brainer.
Is there really any more expense to running bill by mail than what is needed to send violation notices? The question wasn't between having both and being bill by mail only; it was between having both and being transponder only. The latter is rare. And without bill by mail, you basically are telling non-locals that they can't use the road. Nobody is going to get a transponder for a vacation (well, I know a roadgeek or two who will, but most people won't).
Of course, bill by mail isn't the greatest interoperability solution either, given the extra costs/fees, and I've read enough horror stories of things going wrong to want nothing to do with it. When I was down in Florida heading to/from Overseas Highway, I ended up taking an extra half hour to hour each way slogging up/down US 1 because of that, since the Turnpike doesn't take cash down there.
Quote from: kalvado on March 01, 2021, 12:05:47 PM
They don't need to, but can they benefit from being seamless? That is the big question : carrot is more effective than a stick.
Obvious disadvantage is having to play by the rules of a bigger group; obvious advantage - easier collection and lower expenses. If some monopolistic games (charge everyone in every possible way, and fine them otherwise) make them more money that an honest sale - then there is just no carrot.
Users? Probably, especially now that the Thruway is cashless. The company? Probably not. The same reason I would want them to be interoperable is the same reason they wouldn't want to be - to get out of their outrageously high fees (I think they might charge the camera fee per trip rather than per bill, too). And, of course, my refusal to use bill by mail due to all the horror stories across many toll agencies.
Credit cards work on one of two systems or both. Magnetic Strip or Chip.
There are several transponder systems in use for tolls. None of the systems (as opposed to the branding) are interoperable. Just standardization to one communications standard would be a giant step forward.
Quote from: vdeane on March 01, 2021, 01:05:51 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on March 01, 2021, 12:08:32 AM
There also has been much progress in the past 4 years integrating systems. You can now buy a pass like the Uni which works in 19 of the 29 states with toll roads, including pretty much the entire east coast, with no monthly fees or anything. Much of the other states offer toll by plate as well. I imagine they will continue to integrate systems over the next couple years
That's just them and NC QuickPass, though. Otherwise, the E-ZPass and SunPass zones are still separate. There was talk of them being interoperable by the end of last year, but that obviously hasn't happened, and it wasn't the first time the two systems have said they would become interoperable and then didn't, either. I'll believe it when I see it.
....
One point of clarification: The referenced Uni transponder is a CFX device that works on both E-ZPass and SunPass facilities, along with the Quick Pass and Peach Pass facilities. What it doesn't offer (this is why I don't have it) is E-ZPass Flex compatibility.
Quote from: cbeach40 on March 01, 2021, 11:45:27 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on February 27, 2021, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on February 27, 2021, 01:16:29 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on February 26, 2021, 05:38:47 PM
407 will probably never standardize with any US system because it's a private company and they make money off of leasing transponders
if any thing canada may get one transponder for all.
or they can change an higher but less then the video change foreign transponder fees for EZ-pass and / or bill at an exchange rate that they profit on.
I don't think Canada will get one transponder for all, as there are very few tolled roads, and they are all very far from each other. As for charging an EZPass higher, I feel like they would rather charge the camera charge since it's way easier, no need to retrofit any gantries to accept EZPass and etc.
That's always the weird thing that a lot of non-Canadian posters on here, where they view Canada and our transportation systems as some unknown amorphous thing.
Actually that's how I view Canada in general.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 01, 2021, 01:50:16 PM
Quote from: cbeach40 on March 01, 2021, 11:45:27 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on February 27, 2021, 11:53:09 AM
Quote from: Joe The Dragon on February 27, 2021, 01:16:29 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on February 26, 2021, 05:38:47 PM
407 will probably never standardize with any US system because it's a private company and they make money off of leasing transponders
if any thing canada may get one transponder for all.
or they can change an higher but less then the video change foreign transponder fees for EZ-pass and / or bill at an exchange rate that they profit on.
I don't think Canada will get one transponder for all, as there are very few tolled roads, and they are all very far from each other. As for charging an EZPass higher, I feel like they would rather charge the camera charge since it's way easier, no need to retrofit any gantries to accept EZPass and etc.
That's always the weird thing that a lot of non-Canadian posters on here, where they view Canada and our transportation systems as some unknown amorphous thing.
Actually that's how I view Canada in general.
Canada isn't that different from the US, just don't have insane amounts of interstates (freeways? Limited access national roads?). For me, the translation enigma is Mexico. There road system looks like a clusterf*ck, tbh.
Quote from: MCRoads on March 02, 2021, 12:13:17 PM
For me, the translation enigma is Mexico. There road system looks like a clusterf*ck, tbh.
Anything specific that I could maybe help explain?
Quote from: MCRoads on March 02, 2021, 12:13:17 PM
Canada isn't that different from the US, just don't have insane amounts of interstates (freeways? Limited access national roads?).
In terms roadway design, etc yes. In terms of administration, it's completely decentralized to the provinces. No national standards for design*, no national MUTCD, the federal government just will cut cheques for high profile projects and partially fund nationally important routes (TCH, major highways, airport/seaport access roads, etc), but no say in how the roads are actually built and operated.
* - there are nationally adopted standards, but that's because the provincial DOTs pooled their resources to develop them, not dictated from above by an FHWA-type agency. And even then, for example Ontario's "supplement" to the design manual, that spells out their own variations on it, is almost as long as the manual itself, as each province can and often does have their own interpretations and variations from it.
Quote from: cbeach40 on March 02, 2021, 03:56:01 PM
Quote from: MCRoads on March 02, 2021, 12:13:17 PM
Canada isn't that different from the US, just don't have insane amounts of interstates (freeways? Limited access national roads?).
In terms roadway design, etc yes. In terms of administration, it's completely decentralized to the provinces. No national standards for design*, no national MUTCD, the federal government just will cut cheques for high profile projects and partially fund nationally important routes (TCH, major highways, airport/seaport access roads, etc), but no say in how the roads are actually built and operated.
* - there are nationally adopted standards, but that's because the provincial DOTs pooled their resources to develop them, not dictated from above by an FHWA-type agency. And even then, for example Ontario's "supplement" to the design manual, that spells out their own variations on it, is almost as long as the manual itself, as each province can and often does have their own interpretations and variations from it.
Yeah, this is evidenced by the different signage design in the different provinces. I'd say that the road design also varies, as I just feel that Ontario freeways just feel rather different to be on compared to other jurisdictions' freeways.
Also, the TCH isn't even signed at junctions in Ontario, and the TCH is pretty much an afterthought in Ontario, meanwhile Western provinces have all joined forces to number their TCH highways "1" and "16", so you can see the decentralization here.
Quote from: cbeach40 on March 02, 2021, 03:56:01 PM
no national MUTCD
There's this (https://www.tac-atc.ca/en/5th-edition-manual-uniform-traffic-control-devices-canada). Someone even brought a copy to a roadmeet once (the 2018 CSVT meet, I believe). I get the feeling it's not anywhere close to as binding as the US MUTCD, however.
How about this? Toll roads that are part of the Interstate system have to have commonality among transponders. The non interstate tollways will be left up to the states.
Quote from: I-39 on March 02, 2021, 10:57:31 PM
How about this? Toll roads that are part of the Interstate system have to have commonality among transponders. The non interstate tollways will be left up to the states.
That doesn't solve the problem.
Quote from: I-39 on March 02, 2021, 10:57:31 PM
How about this? Toll roads that are part of the Interstate system have to have commonality among transponders. The non interstate tollways will be left up to the states.
Since those toll interstates don't get federal money, how about just dropping those designations?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 02, 2021, 11:22:28 PM
Quote from: I-39 on March 02, 2021, 10:57:31 PM
How about this? Toll roads that are part of the Interstate system have to have commonality among transponders. The non interstate tollways will be left up to the states.
That doesn't solve the problem.
Bingo!
Quote from: vdeane on March 02, 2021, 08:25:05 PM
Quote from: cbeach40 on March 02, 2021, 03:56:01 PM
no national MUTCD
There's this (https://www.tac-atc.ca/en/5th-edition-manual-uniform-traffic-control-devices-canada). Someone even brought a copy to a roadmeet once (the 2018 CSVT meet, I believe). I get the feeling it's not anywhere close to as binding as the US MUTCD, however.
Exactly, no binding power at all. Like the TAC design manual, it's a collaborative effort with DOTs pooling resources to create the publication. And each has their own interpretations and variations on it.
Quote from: cbeach40 on March 03, 2021, 11:34:24 AM
Quote from: vdeane on March 02, 2021, 08:25:05 PM
Quote from: cbeach40 on March 02, 2021, 03:56:01 PM
no national MUTCD
There's this (https://www.tac-atc.ca/en/5th-edition-manual-uniform-traffic-control-devices-canada). Someone even brought a copy to a roadmeet once (the 2018 CSVT meet, I believe). I get the feeling it's not anywhere close to as binding as the US MUTCD, however.
Exactly, no binding power at all. Like the TAC design manual, it's a collaborative effort with DOTs pooling resources to create the publication. And each has their own interpretations and variations on it.
Even the Ontario OTM has no binding power with non-provincial routes...
For example, have a look at the signs on the Gardiner Expressway, Don Valley Parkway, and E.C. Row Expressway, which are all municipal freeways. A lot of them are bad attempts at the sign designs on the OTM, and a lot of the other signs do not follow OTM standards at all.
Some 407 ETR signs are also terrible.
Hamilton's Red Hill Valley Parkway and Lincoln Alexander Parkway emulate the OTM signs well enough though, for some reason.
Standard Ontario exit pull-thru sign:
(https://i.imgur.com/RjKieu9.png)
Non-standard exit sign on Don Valley Parkway:
(https://i.imgur.com/IxfSa4y.png)
Non-standard exit sign on Gardiner Expressway:
(https://i.imgur.com/d4W491b.png)
Non-standard exit sign on E.C. Row Expressway:
(https://i.imgur.com/aDJJ2vI.png)
Really strange-looking diagrammatical sign on 407 ETR
(https://i.imgur.com/4bONrwo.png)
Quote from: andrepoiy on March 03, 2021, 05:12:12 PM
Quote from: cbeach40 on March 03, 2021, 11:34:24 AM
Quote from: vdeane on March 02, 2021, 08:25:05 PM
Quote from: cbeach40 on March 02, 2021, 03:56:01 PM
no national MUTCD
There's this (https://www.tac-atc.ca/en/5th-edition-manual-uniform-traffic-control-devices-canada). Someone even brought a copy to a roadmeet once (the 2018 CSVT meet, I believe). I get the feeling it's not anywhere close to as binding as the US MUTCD, however.
Exactly, no binding power at all. Like the TAC design manual, it's a collaborative effort with DOTs pooling resources to create the publication. And each has their own interpretations and variations on it.
Even the Ontario OTM has no binding power with non-provincial routes...
For example, have a look at the signs on the Gardiner Expressway, Don Valley Parkway, and E.C. Row Expressway, which are all municipal freeways. A lot of them are bad attempts at the sign designs on the OTM, and a lot of the other signs do not follow OTM standards at all.
Some 407 ETR signs are also terrible.
Hamilton's Red Hill Valley Parkway and Lincoln Alexander Parkway emulate the OTM signs well enough though, for some reason.
Standard Ontario exit pull-thru sign:
(https://i.imgur.com/RjKieu9.png)
Non-standard exit sign on Don Valley Parkway:
(https://i.imgur.com/IxfSa4y.png)
Non-standard exit sign on Gardiner Expressway:
(https://i.imgur.com/d4W491b.png)
Non-standard exit sign on E.C. Row Expressway:
(https://i.imgur.com/aDJJ2vI.png)
Really strange-looking diagrammatical sign on 407 ETR
(https://i.imgur.com/4bONrwo.png)
I see a greenout on Dougall Avenue. Was that PR 3B?
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on March 10, 2021, 08:41:10 AM
I see a greenout on Dougall Avenue. Was that PR 3B?
It was, yes.
For the era they were installed that one and the DVP ones would have been within standard at the time. For the 407ETR one, that was made a contractor and while the layout is okay, stylistically it's off.
Quote from: cbeach40 on March 10, 2021, 11:13:37 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on March 10, 2021, 08:41:10 AM
I see a greenout on Dougall Avenue. Was that PR 3B?
It was, yes.
For the era they were installed that one and the DVP ones would have been within standard at the time. For the 407ETR one, that was made a contractor and while the layout is okay, stylistically it's off.
I don't know if QEW West is really a good idea either.