The FDOT is one of the few state transportation agencies I can find that produces rule of thumb estimates for highway construction costs. They say that a 6 lane freeway in a rural area costs just $7 million a mile (https://fdotwww.blob.core.windows.net/sitefinity/docs/default-source/programmanagement/estimates/lre/costpermilemodels/r08.pdf?sfvrsn=861ecaab_6).
But I've yet to find any project that costs so little. Am I just not looking hard enough or is the FDOT, and ARTBA (https://www.artba.org/about/faq/) for that matter just lying? The Pennsylvania DOT (https://www.penndot.gov/about-us/Documents/PennDOT%20Road%20MaP%20Initiative.pdf) produces estimates closer to anecdotal data. They say that reconstructing a lane mile of interstate is $2.6 million, so a 6 lane freeway would cost $15 million per mile to reconstruct (and presumably more than that to build a brand new one).
Could any DOT employees shed some light on this?
I'm not an engineer, nor a DOT employee. But I recently posted in the Midwest-Great Lakes Forum about a proposed project in Eastern Ohio, an extension of US-30 east of Canton, Ohio, in a fairly rural area. This is brand-new construction, which involves ROW acquisition, environmental issues, site preparation, etc.; not re-constructing an existing roadway.
The proposal is for a four-lane limited-access divided highway covering just over 2.5 miles, with a projected total cost of $104,235,378 by the time it's hopefully finished in 2025.
So your number of $7 million per mile appears way too low.
The original estimate from Florida only includes the actual construction costs and not the items that add significant expense. (ie design costs, ROW acquisition, etc.)
Florida has some of the easiest and most workable terrain in the country, that probably has a substantial impact on that estimate.
Quote from: kernals12 on February 28, 2021, 10:30:34 AM
The FDOT is one of the few state transportation agencies I can find that produces rule of thumb estimates for highway construction costs. They say that a 6 lane freeway in a rural area costs just $7 million a mile (https://fdotwww.blob.core.windows.net/sitefinity/docs/default-source/programmanagement/estimates/lre/costpermilemodels/r08.pdf?sfvrsn=861ecaab_6).
But I've yet to find any project that costs so little. Am I just not looking hard enough or is the FDOT, and ARTBA (https://www.artba.org/about/faq/) for that matter just lying? The Pennsylvania DOT (https://www.penndot.gov/about-us/Documents/PennDOT%20Road%20MaP%20Initiative.pdf) produces estimates closer to anecdotal data. They say that reconstructing a lane mile of interstate is $2.6 million, so a 6 lane freeway would cost $15 million per mile to reconstruct (and presumably more than that to build a brand new one).
Could any DOT employees shed some light on this?
When you reviewed PA data, you immediately ignored shoulder costs, and you rounded down.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 28, 2021, 11:20:32 AM
The original estimate from Florida only includes the actual construction costs and not the items that add significant expense. (ie design costs, ROW acquisition, etc.)
Another major factor is environmental mitigation, especially if the road will pass anywhere near wetlands. Huge factor in exploding the cost of even relatively minor projects. Some of the roads we all know well could not be built today in their existing locations because federal regulations have become so much stricter since the roads were built in the 1950s and 1960s.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 28, 2021, 11:31:07 AM
Florida has some of the easiest and most workable terrain in the country, that probably has a substantial impact on that estimate.
But drainage I imagine would be an issue.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 28, 2021, 11:34:45 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 28, 2021, 10:30:34 AM
The FDOT is one of the few state transportation agencies I can find that produces rule of thumb estimates for highway construction costs. They say that a 6 lane freeway in a rural area costs just $7 million a mile (https://fdotwww.blob.core.windows.net/sitefinity/docs/default-source/programmanagement/estimates/lre/costpermilemodels/r08.pdf?sfvrsn=861ecaab_6).
But I've yet to find any project that costs so little. Am I just not looking hard enough or is the FDOT, and ARTBA (https://www.artba.org/about/faq/) for that matter just lying? The Pennsylvania DOT (https://www.penndot.gov/about-us/Documents/PennDOT%20Road%20MaP%20Initiative.pdf) produces estimates closer to anecdotal data. They say that reconstructing a lane mile of interstate is $2.6 million, so a 6 lane freeway would cost $15 million per mile to reconstruct (and presumably more than that to build a brand new one).
Could any DOT employees shed some light on this?
When you reviewed PA data, you immediately ignored shoulder costs, and you rounded down.
Oh no! Call the SEC! I've clearly committed accounting fraud.
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 28, 2021, 11:45:41 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 28, 2021, 11:20:32 AM
The original estimate from Florida only includes the actual construction costs and not the items that add significant expense. (ie design costs, ROW acquisition, etc.)
Another major factor is environmental mitigation, especially if the road will pass anywhere near wetlands. Huge factor in exploding the cost of even relatively minor projects. Some of the roads we all know well could not be built today in their existing locations because federal regulations have become so much stricter since the roads were built in the 1950s and 1960s.
But from what I can tell, those things usually account for a minority of the cost of building a highway, so they don't explain why it often costs tens of millions of dollars rather than the low figures produced by FDOT and ARTBA.
Quote from: kernals12 on February 28, 2021, 12:52:09 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 28, 2021, 11:34:45 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on February 28, 2021, 10:30:34 AM
The FDOT is one of the few state transportation agencies I can find that produces rule of thumb estimates for highway construction costs. They say that a 6 lane freeway in a rural area costs just $7 million a mile (https://fdotwww.blob.core.windows.net/sitefinity/docs/default-source/programmanagement/estimates/lre/costpermilemodels/r08.pdf?sfvrsn=861ecaab_6).
But I've yet to find any project that costs so little. Am I just not looking hard enough or is the FDOT, and ARTBA (https://www.artba.org/about/faq/) for that matter just lying? The Pennsylvania DOT (https://www.penndot.gov/about-us/Documents/PennDOT%20Road%20MaP%20Initiative.pdf) produces estimates closer to anecdotal data. They say that reconstructing a lane mile of interstate is $2.6 million, so a 6 lane freeway would cost $15 million per mile to reconstruct (and presumably more than that to build a brand new one).
Could any DOT employees shed some light on this?
When you reviewed PA data, you immediately ignored shoulder costs, and you rounded down.
Oh no! Call the SEC! I've clearly committed accounting fraud.
Well, you wanted some light shed on why costs don't seem as cheap as they should be. Light was shed on it. You don't like the answers. Not our fault.
Another question:
If we can come to some consensus about what an AVERAGE cost might be per mile of a freeway (also average conditions, either list 4 or 6 lane), it would be interesting to note what the average cost of a similar freeway would be in 2010, 2000, 1990, 1980, 1970, 1960 back into the beginning of the interstate era. Some of that cost is using differing predominate construction methods and implementation of safety protocols, but I bet that the inflation rate would be tremendous.
Something's missing.... :hmm:
The thing I will repeat from the deleted material was my response to the following. I won't say exactly the same thing because I assume the moderators deleted it for a reason, but in general I recall the gist of it:
Quote from: kernals12 on February 28, 2021, 12:59:57 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 28, 2021, 11:45:41 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 28, 2021, 11:20:32 AM
The original estimate from Florida only includes the actual construction costs and not the items that add significant expense. (ie design costs, ROW acquisition, etc.)
Another major factor is environmental mitigation, especially if the road will pass anywhere near wetlands. Huge factor in exploding the cost of even relatively minor projects. Some of the roads we all know well could not be built today in their existing locations because federal regulations have become so much stricter since the roads were built in the 1950s and 1960s.
But from what I can tell, those things usually account for a minority of the cost of building a highway, so they don't explain why it often costs tens of millions of dollars rather than the low figures produced by FDOT and ARTBA.
Whether those costs are a "minority" factor or not–and of course that's going to vary immensely by location–they're still a significant factor, and I wasn't even considering litigation expenses that often come up when environmentalists sue to try to stop construction.
A couple of big ticket items missing are:
Interchanges
Bridges/Overpasses
I'm not an expert in this area, but I've worked on many cost estimates that included railroad and highway components. The main cost elements are usually (sequential):
Planning and Environmental Assessment
Survey
Subsurface Analysis
Design and Engineering
Right-of-way acquisition
Clearing and Grubbing (already included)
Demolition
Utility relocations (shouldn't wait this late, but usually does)
On top of all of that, you've got the following add-ons. These often add up to as much
Project Management
Mobilization Costs
Insurance/Bonding (usually listed separately)
Licensing/Regulatory Compliance
Financing Costs (on some projects)
Profit
After the project, you'll get a few more minor cost elements (these cost much more in the rail transit business):
Inspection/Testing
Corrective Action (usually included in the upfront price-per-mile)
Landscaping
As-Built Plan Revisions
I'm sure that I missed a few important items. We always did expect some omissions and typically added the following:
Contingency (30% to 35% during planning, 10% to 15% after design)
You might want to see if FDOT has any spreadsheets for typical interchange designs and typical bridges. Most agencies have these in their back pockets.
You forgot to mention the money for the payoffs and pork.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on March 01, 2021, 08:11:29 AM
You forgot to mention the money for the payoffs and pork.
Wut.
Quote from: Rothman on March 01, 2021, 10:20:55 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on March 01, 2021, 08:11:29 AM
You forgot to mention the money for the payoffs and pork.
Wut.
Avalanche is big on pork, someone did a quote string of all them once. I myself love the carnitas I get from the local taco truck and when my wife makes them.
Now it does beg the question; can payoffs come with chicken, fish or even steak?
I thought of "pork" as a verb for reasons specific to this thread that I probably ought to delete. :hmm:
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 28, 2021, 11:45:41 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 28, 2021, 11:20:32 AM
The original estimate from Florida only includes the actual construction costs and not the items that add significant expense. (ie design costs, ROW acquisition, etc.)
Another major factor is environmental mitigation, especially if the road will pass anywhere near wetlands. Huge factor in exploding the cost of even relatively minor projects. Some of the roads we all know well could not be built today in their existing locations because federal regulations have become so much stricter since the roads were built in the 1950s and 1960s.
Nitpick: environmental regulations don't drive up the cost of highways, they shift it from 3rd parties to highway builders. In fact, they almost certainly reduce the cost of highways when you consider internal and external costs.
Quote from: kernals12 on March 02, 2021, 09:44:46 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 28, 2021, 11:45:41 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 28, 2021, 11:20:32 AM
The original estimate from Florida only includes the actual construction costs and not the items that add significant expense. (ie design costs, ROW acquisition, etc.)
Another major factor is environmental mitigation, especially if the road will pass anywhere near wetlands. Huge factor in exploding the cost of even relatively minor projects. Some of the roads we all know well could not be built today in their existing locations because federal regulations have become so much stricter since the roads were built in the 1950s and 1960s.
Nitpick: environmental regulations don't drive up the cost of highways, they shift it from 3rd parties to highway builders. In fact, they almost certainly reduce the cost of highways when you consider internal and external costs.
Now you are shifting goalposts. Environmental studies and mitigation add to the costs of constructing a highway, which was your original question.
Reducing costs from some hypothetical is a different issue entirely.
Quote from: coldshoulder on February 28, 2021, 11:00:16 AM
I'm not an engineer, nor a DOT employee. But I recently posted in the Midwest-Great Lakes Forum about a proposed project in Eastern Ohio, an extension of US-30 east of Canton, Ohio, in a fairly rural area. This is brand-new construction, which involves ROW acquisition, environmental issues, site preparation, etc.; not re-constructing an existing roadway.
The proposal is for a four-lane limited-access divided highway covering just over 2.5 miles, with a projected total cost of $104,235,378 by the time it's hopefully finished in 2025.
So your number of $7 million per mile appears way too low.
Quoting my own post here...
Nobody has really answered the original question, and there obviously is not just one "right" answer, becuase all road projects are not created equal. But reading all the posts in this thread is making me reconsider some things.
The OP's $7 million per mile still appears to be a low-ball estimate, but likewise the situation I described now seems way too high -- $104 million for 2.5 miles of a new four-lane divided highway...over $40 million per mile...???
Quote from: SEWIGuy on March 02, 2021, 09:52:44 AM
Quote from: kernals12 on March 02, 2021, 09:44:46 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 28, 2021, 11:45:41 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 28, 2021, 11:20:32 AM
The original estimate from Florida only includes the actual construction costs and not the items that add significant expense. (ie design costs, ROW acquisition, etc.)
Another major factor is environmental mitigation, especially if the road will pass anywhere near wetlands. Huge factor in exploding the cost of even relatively minor projects. Some of the roads we all know well could not be built today in their existing locations because federal regulations have become so much stricter since the roads were built in the 1950s and 1960s.
Nitpick: environmental regulations don't drive up the cost of highways, they shift it from 3rd parties to highway builders. In fact, they almost certainly reduce the cost of highways when you consider internal and external costs.
Now you are shifting goalposts. Environmental studies and mitigation add to the costs of constructing a highway, which was your original question.
Reducing costs from some hypothetical is a different issue entirely.
I just made what I thought was an important clarification. And some of the costs can be calculated, like the increase in flood insurance premiums caused by bulldozing wetlands
Quote from: coldshoulder on March 02, 2021, 09:57:48 AM
Quote from: coldshoulder on February 28, 2021, 11:00:16 AM
I'm not an engineer, nor a DOT employee. But I recently posted in the Midwest-Great Lakes Forum about a proposed project in Eastern Ohio, an extension of US-30 east of Canton, Ohio, in a fairly rural area. This is brand-new construction, which involves ROW acquisition, environmental issues, site preparation, etc.; not re-constructing an existing roadway.
The proposal is for a four-lane limited-access divided highway covering just over 2.5 miles, with a projected total cost of $104,235,378 by the time it's hopefully finished in 2025.
So your number of $7 million per mile appears way too low.
Quoting my own post here...
Nobody has really answered the original question, and there obviously is not just one "right" answer, becuase all road projects are not created equal. But reading all the posts in this thread is making me reconsider some things.
The OP's $7 million per mile still appears to be a low-ball estimate, but likewise the situation I described now seems way too high -- $104 million for 2.5 miles of a new four-lane divided highway...over $40 million per mile...???
Having some context would help, because it's more than just 4 lanes of highway.
https://publicinput.com/S4171?utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery
The images in that public meeting info are a great source of info, along with the link at the bottom to Ohio Transportation page.
In terms of ruralness, it's not really all that rural. After all, it's skirting past a fairly populated area, and it appears there are numerous buildable lots in that area, which may or may not be owned by someone.
Rather than thinking of it as a single 4 lane highway, consider it two, 2 lane roadways. Plus shoulders.
There are going to be 7 separate overpasses here, including 2 lengthy overpasses over a roadway and railroad track. For a roadway with a median as wide as this one is proposed, each direction has basically a separate overpass over the roadways it crosses, even if they're tied together with a single support structure.
There are also (quickly glancing) 7 full residential buyouts due to displacement, purchasing of right-of-way and/or easements on numerous other properties, rebuilding of several roadways going over or near the project, and the tie-ins on either end.
I can pretty much promise you the most expensive part of this project on an individual basis involves that railroad overpass, which involves a whole separate issue with the railroad companies.
So, it seems expensive, roughly $40 million a mile. But considering what's being done, eh, yeah, I can kinda picture it.