I stumbled across this (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9602872,-85.2989522,3a,42.9y,90.19h,93.01t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgLbRFkWpNknRgFJ35jCaPQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) on the approach to the I-69/I-469 junction near Fort Wayne, IN, which has Fort Wayne listed for two different directions... and got to wondering: Is this even allowed? And if so, what other examples exist?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2F020819c7.jpg&hash=7bcaa4ac116901fbca05390a1f4a28e3d3949f69)
I took that picture in July 2008. You'll find the sign at the T-intersection outside Peggy's Cove (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4975577,-63.9155947,19.29z).
I think Fort Wayne is a poor choice for 469. Yes, you would go that way to reach some parts of FW, but New Haven makes more sense as a local destination and Toledo as a longer-distance destination.
At the famous three-legged junction of QC 132 with itself in Mont-Joli (http://www.alaskaroads.com/QC132+A-20_DSC2879.jpg), there is this sign telling you to go straight ahead to one destination, turn right for another, but if you're headed for Percé you can go either way:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alaskaroads.com%2FQC132-jct-destinations-SteAnnedesMonts150%2BMatapedia150-Perce_DSC2877.jpg&hash=1307b83787a3d51190eeedac69823155a84c5367)
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 11, 2021, 08:53:18 AM
... the T-intersection outside Peggy's Cove (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4975577,-63.9155947,19.29z).
At a first glance, it seems absurd that you would turn left to reach Halifax, but it's actually only about 5 minutes and 10 km longer. The western route must be a better-quality one even though it's two sides of a triangle.
Quote from: oscar on March 11, 2021, 09:06:28 AM
... the famous three-legged junction of QC 132 with itself in Mont-Joli (http://qc132+a-20_dsc2879.jpg) ...
Is anyone else having issues with this link? It doesn't seem to be working for me..
Quote from: cabiness42 on March 11, 2021, 08:59:28 AM
I think Fort Wayne is a poor choice for 469. Yes, you would go that way to reach some parts of FW, but New Haven makes more sense as a local destination and Toledo as a longer-distance destination.
I agree. I'd go with Toledo as the main control, but wouldn't be opposed to both Toledo and New Haven on this sign.
(Also, the I-469 and US 33 shields should be rotated so they're next to each other, with the words EAST and SOUTH on top of the shields. But that's another topic...)
Quote from: webny99 on March 11, 2021, 09:32:35 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 11, 2021, 08:53:18 AM
... the T-intersection outside Peggy's Cove (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.4975577,-63.9155947,19.29z).
At a first glance, it seems absurd that you would turn left to reach Halifax, but it's actually only about 5 minutes and 10 km longer. The western route must be a better-quality one even though it's two sides of a triangle.
....
We went right, mostly because we had come from the left on our way in. The road to the left is less twisty and generally has a higher speed limit (80 km/h, whereas to the right I recall several places where it dropped to 50 km/h through small towns and some longer 70 km/h zones), plus going left you can connect to Route 103 if you want (speed limit is 110 km/h and it has two lanes in each direction). The main thing was the twistiness to the right.
Quote from: oscar on March 11, 2021, 09:06:28 AM
At the famous three-legged junction of QC 132 with itself in Mont-Joli (http://qc132+a-20_dsc2879.jpg), there is this sign telling you to go straight ahead to one destination, turn right for another, but if you're headed for Percé you can go either way:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.alaskaroads.com%2FQC132-jct-destinations-SteAnnedesMonts150%2BMatapedia150-Perce_DSC2877.jpg&hash=1307b83787a3d51190eeedac69823155a84c5367)
I note the interesting combination of shields just south of that intersection showing that Route 132 East goes both straight and to the right:
https://goo.gl/maps/2HWQoDNcPziKwktW8
Oscar's link didn't work for me either, BTW, but it was easy enough to find the location on Google Maps.
(Edited to combine posts)
Quote from: webny99 on March 11, 2021, 08:50:26 AM
Is this even allowed?
No.
Quote from: 2009 Edition Chapter – 2E. Guide Signs – Freeways and Expressways
Section 2E.13 Designation of Destinations
Standard:
01 – The direction of a freeway and the major destinations or control cities along it shall be clearly identified through the use of appropriate destination legends (see Section 2D.37). Successive freeway guide signs shall provide continuity in destination names and consistency with available map information. At any decision point, a given destination shall be indicated by way of only one route.
Quote from: kphoger on March 11, 2021, 10:26:01 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 11, 2021, 08:50:26 AM
Is this even allowed?
No.
Quote from: 2009 Edition Chapter – 2E. Guide Signs – Freeways and Expressways
Section 2E.13 Designation of Destinations
Standard:
01 – The direction of a freeway and the major destinations or control cities along it shall be clearly identified through the use of appropriate destination legends (see Section 2D.37). Successive freeway guide signs shall provide continuity in destination names and consistency with available map information. At any decision point, a given destination shall be indicated by way of only one route.
Does the Canadian equivalent of the MUTCD say the same thing?
VDOT does the opposite in Chesapeake, VA. It signs Richmond on I-64 East rather than west, but either way you can get to the state Capital.
Oh I-40 & 55 in West Memphis at the southern split has Memphis signed for both routes.
https://goo.gl/maps/23X6QdAN1gowrEYY6
When NB I-35 leaves the Kansas Turnpike, both Free I-35 and continuing on the Turnpike/I-335 are signed with Kansas City controls
Quote from: ilpt4u on March 11, 2021, 10:38:46 AM
When NB I-35 leaves the Kansas Turnpike, both Free I-35 and continuing on the Turnpike/I-335 are signed with Kansas City controls
Awww, you stole the thunder from |stridentweasel|! That peeve is his personal pet.
From north of the border: At the QEW/403 split (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4814543,-79.672472,3a,41y,1.44h,89.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGOQopz-snr4u6g1-cWIehQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en), Toronto is signed for both routes (albeit with the "(Downtown)" & "Via 403 & 401" add-ons, so there is still
some differentiation).
Similarly, Harrisburg is included for both I-81 & I-83 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3150635,-76.8284031,3a,75y,231.94h,86.64t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCMu2CMV5VorXG_JijZnRKQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) when approaching from the northeast, but with "South" & "North" add-ons. Prior to the 3rd-lane widening on I-81 between exits 70 & 72, there also used to be this "Harrisburg Exits" sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3249976,-76.808586,3a,37.8y,283.56h,93.3t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sngMdrGxjDuOt85NS9I1XNQ!2e0!5s20130801T000000!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en) indicating that either route led there. (I wouldn't include this example if Harrisburg was actually split into 2 separate entities, because then the North vs. South would technically be referring to 2 separate cities.)
Quote from: webny99 on March 11, 2021, 09:42:00 AM
(Also, the I-469 and US 33 shields should be rotated so they're next to each other, with the words EAST and SOUTH on top of the shields. But that's another topic...)
Can't say I disagree but judging from other INDOT concurrencies, it seems like the way I-469/US 33 is signed is their preferred method. (For example: I-465/I-74 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8016845,-86.2770167,3a,75y,120.83h,78.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-yUjwJ9LjttJ9ORABvJUJQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) & I-70/I-65 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7870296,-86.1346641,3a,45y,247.86h,92.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0e-PtY3glPEKZHiD88lRDg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en).)
Another wrinkle here is that the funky shield placement might be related to the fact that there used to be US 24 shields as well, prior to US 24 being relocated to the north side of I-69/I-469 (the sign just downstream at the I-69 N/S ramp split still has a US 24 shield (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9599535,-85.2968146,3a,75y,138.94h,87.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slyvP3FTvpXztlpyq7jZBOA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) as of the most recent GMSV). Judging from GMSV, it seems like those signs were replaced around the same time as US 24's relocation, but evidently still left room for US 24 shields anyway.
Quote from: webny99 on March 11, 2021, 09:32:35 AM
Quote from: oscar on March 11, 2021, 09:06:28 AM
... the famous three-legged junction of QC 132 with itself in Mont-Joli (http://qc132+a-20_dsc2879.jpg) ...
Is anyone else having issues with this link? It doesn't seem to be working for me..
Link fixed in my post.
Quote from: oscar on March 11, 2021, 11:09:52 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 11, 2021, 09:32:35 AM
Quote from: oscar on March 11, 2021, 09:06:28 AM
... the famous three-legged junction of QC 132 with itself in Mont-Joli (http://qc132+a-20_dsc2879.jpg) ...
Is anyone else having issues with this link? It doesn't seem to be working for me..
Link fixed in my post.
:thumbsup:
A slightly different variant on this sort of thing: Eastbound I-66 uses "Washington" as a control city. As you approach the Beltway, you see this sign on the right saying "Washington VIA [US-50 shield] USE EXIT 64A" (https://goo.gl/maps/CiMbmPVMCJMmLkyL8).
In this instance, while it might at first seem odd to someone not from the area, there is a good reason for it–historically, I-66 inside the Beltway had an HOV restriction applicable to all lanes in the peak direction during rush hour, and while that has now been modified to an HO/T system, this sign tells people one way to go if they want to avoid the restricted roadway. Also, trucks are banned on I-66 inside the Beltway, so this sign gives them an alternate, though many truckers can't use that option due to Route 50 having an eight-ton gross vehicle weight limit.
Quote from: kphoger on March 11, 2021, 10:43:00 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on March 11, 2021, 10:38:46 AM
When NB I-35 leaves the Kansas Turnpike, both Free I-35 and continuing on the Turnpike/I-335 are signed with Kansas City controls
Awww, you stole the thunder from |stridentweasel|! That peeve is his personal pet.
I mean, it makes sense, because depending on what part of Kansas City you're going to, either route may be better. We usually just go with free I-35 because we're cheap, though (but I-335/I-70 is actually faster for us since we're going to the area around the racetrack).
Quote from: jmacswimmer on March 11, 2021, 11:01:59 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 11, 2021, 09:42:00 AM
(Also, the I-469 and US 33 shields should be rotated so they're next to each other, with the words EAST and SOUTH on top of the shields. But that's another topic...)
Can't say I disagree but judging from other INDOT concurrencies, it seems like the way I-469/US 33 is signed is their preferred method. (For example: I-465/I-74 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8016845,-86.2770167,3a,75y,120.83h,78.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-yUjwJ9LjttJ9ORABvJUJQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) & I-70/I-65 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7870296,-86.1346641,3a,45y,247.86h,92.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0e-PtY3glPEKZHiD88lRDg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en).)
They did manage to get the BGS's at
this interchange (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1198911,-85.1838694,3a,47.3y,316.28h,95.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sz-7d_Tix5l02cj5U0acs_g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) correct though!
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 11, 2021, 03:29:21 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 11, 2021, 10:43:00 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on March 11, 2021, 10:38:46 AM
When NB I-35 leaves the Kansas Turnpike, both Free I-35 and continuing on the Turnpike/I-335 are signed with Kansas City controls
Awww, you stole the thunder from |stridentweasel|! That peeve is his personal pet.
I mean, it makes sense, because depending on what part of Kansas City you're going to, either route may be better. We usually just go with free I-35 because we're cheap, though (but I-335/I-70 is actually faster for us since we're going to the area around the racetrack).
One is clearly pointing to KCK and the other KCMO. :)
Chris
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 11, 2021, 05:14:55 PM
One is clearly pointing to KCK and the other KCMO. :)
Ironically, I'm more likely to use KTA if I'm headed into Missouri, and more likely to use I-35 if I'm staying in Kansas.
That's because, if I'm headed into Missouri, then I'm most likely going north on I-35 toward Iowa, and the western route is part of one of my preferred downtown KC bypasses. However, if I'm staying in Kansas, then I'm probably only heading to Johnson County.
Quote from: webny99 on March 11, 2021, 09:42:00 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on March 11, 2021, 08:59:28 AM
I think Fort Wayne is a poor choice for 469. Yes, you would go that way to reach some parts of FW, but New Haven makes more sense as a local destination and Toledo as a longer-distance destination.
I agree. I'd go with Toledo as the main control, but wouldn't be opposed to both Toledo and New Haven on this sign.
(Also, the I-469 and US 33 shields should be rotated so they're next to each other, with the words EAST and SOUTH on top of the shields. But that's another topic...)
First of all, is Toledo even signed as the US 24 EB control at its exit from I-469? I heard they reconstructed the interchange, so I have no clue what the updated signage is. But prior to construction, there wasn't a control city for US 24.
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 11, 2021, 08:08:06 PM
First of all, is Toledo even signed as the US 24 EB control at its exit from I-469? I heard they reconstructed the interchange, so I have no clue what the updated signage is. But prior to construction, there wasn't a control city for US 24.
Sadly, no. But Toledo is used at the interchanges further down the road,
like this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.1441697,-84.8484788,3a,75y,187.72h,75.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svy3PBhcmfFqYmU_UV8-WWA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1).
There's always this classic: https://goo.gl/maps/okA9skRpa8mCJfnD9
Then there's here: https://goo.gl/maps/ZndVLFdv6FCYdwKQ8
Did I mention this one yet: https://goo.gl/maps/6raMSqp6ahRW5LeH7
And this little sign (with its twin on the other ramp too): https://goo.gl/maps/5NNh4KEqaXXV7mYGA
Quote from: Brandon on March 11, 2021, 10:34:07 PM
There's always this classic: https://goo.gl/maps/okA9skRpa8mCJfnD9
Those could really be combined into a single sign, almost like what some states post on VMS's (minus the times, obviously).
US 20 westbound in Sturbridge, MA (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1127228,-72.0849363,3a,75y,239.61h,82.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snQuwlCvq_7laABjjj-yHYw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).
However, the sign at the actual MA 131 intersection clarifies things a little better (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1122468,-72.0867556,3a,75y,240.66h,77.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRDw3_3kegtARvk5DSbXPHw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
Although not facing the same direction but at the same intersection/interchange: which way to Burlington (not the Coat Factory):
MA 62 eastbound exiting off US 3 southbound (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5016044,-71.2461437,3a,75y,162.78h,73.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQux6ee5DhSn59wYZixKKCQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) or US 3 southbound exit at MA 62 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5014366,-71.2463734,3a,75y,73.06h,83.09t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skYeykXZACWb8_WOC_AQUsg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)?
A similar example for Peabody:
US 1 southbound exit at MA 114 eastbound (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5619156,-70.9789301,3a,75y,171.01h,80.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdLBQzeIHNbKihB4Pj0CwSg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) or MA 114 eastbound exit at US 1 southbound (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5605841,-70.9776758,3a,75y,201.11h,81.79t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sq1l5Y4IejOp_fEHj_fOtnA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Dq1l5Y4IejOp_fEHj_fOtnA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D30.929325%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)?
Quote from: roadman65 on March 11, 2021, 10:32:45 AM
VDOT does the opposite in Chesapeake, VA. It signs Richmond on I-64 East rather than west, but either way you can get to the state Capital.
I-64 around Norfolk was always a little weird. It goes around and changes direction, so you'd be hard pressed to find a cardinal direction posted in the area, because it is slightly ambiguous. But you are right that going either direction would lead you to one of the bridge-tunnels and both routes eventually merge and head to Richmond anyway.
Quote from: webny99 on March 11, 2021, 09:42:00 AM
(Also, the I-469 and US 33 shields should be rotated so they're next to each other, with the words EAST and SOUTH on top of the shields. But that's another topic...)
This is true and it seems like Indiana now realizes that, objectively, the horizontal arrangement saves sign space compared to the vertical arrangement. But in the past it was always some sort of standard/guideline that shields on BGS would be stacked vertically with the directions to the right.
Quote from: ran4sh on March 14, 2021, 12:55:33 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 11, 2021, 09:42:00 AM
(Also, the I-469 and US 33 shields should be rotated so they're next to each other, with the words EAST and SOUTH on top of the shields. But that's another topic...)
This is true and it seems like Indiana now realizes that, objectively, the horizontal arrangement saves sign space compared to the vertical arrangement. But in the past it was always some sort of standard/guideline that shields on BGS would be stacked vertically with the directions to the right.
I forgot US 33 is signed N-S in Indiana until you mentioned it here, so was about to say "why are two directional banners needed when they're both signed E-W at that point". I'm so used to it being signed E-W like what Ohio, WV and Virginia at this point, does despite it being an odd number.
This example from the KC area, on MO 273 approaching MO 45 just east of Weston.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3983876,-94.86138,3a,37.5y,317.28h,89.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-B2ocApkfNehxwGGxXhGxg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192