The WI-23 and CTH-Y interchange in Kohler is one of the stranger ones I've ever seen. It includes two seemingly unnesecary loop ramps, both servicing westbound WI-23. This interchange would be safer and take up less space if it were a simple diamond: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7532204,-87.779378,16.77z
Might as well cross-post this here:
Quote from: kphoger on June 22, 2020, 11:41:19 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 08, 2015, 01:14:05 PM
Quote from: NE2 on October 08, 2015, 11:27:50 AM
Quote from: kphoger on October 05, 2015, 02:07:29 PMI found one that surprised me the other day. It's a junction if what are basically two farm roads in a plains state.
SW Ohio Street Road & SW 20th Street (https://goo.gl/maps/PnMhDftVuBk) in rural Kansas, just west of El Dorado.
Might be because of terrain, so the north-south road doesn't have to dip down too much.
I discovered this one a few weeks ago as part of my ongoing exploration of paved county roads in Sedgwick and the surrounding counties. At the time I suspected the grade separation was built when this length of SW 20th Street was still part of K-254. However, while HistoricAerials.com is not being cooperative at present, I can find no evidence this intersection was ever on K-254. The 1959 aerial photo (oldest available) shows it as a flat intersection while, just to the west, the road that Google Maps now shows as "Old K-254" swings north to converge on the current expressway alignment of K-254.
In the old days, when it was still a two-lane state highway, K-254 was on top of the east-west section line road known as 61st Street North in Sedgwick County and SW 20th Street in Butler County, and ran straight through Benton and Towanda. This is largely still true of the expressway relocation, which was built in the mid-1990's, except that both Benton and Towanda are now bypassed with "Old K-254" former alignments. However, the 1959 aerial shows that K-254 swung north in Towanda (well west of Ohio Street Road) to enter El Dorado along Central Avenue, and I suspect this was its original alignment since the K-254 designation was created in the mid-1950's. (Side observation: east-west county road numbering in Butler County is based on north/south distance to Parallel Street, which overlaps the Fifth Standard Parallel South and continues in Sedgwick County as 77th Street North. The bulk of K-254 runs parallel to it but two miles south, while Central Avenue in El Dorado is also parallel to it but runs half a mile south.)
As for the grade separation at SW 20th Street and Ohio Street Road, this can have been built only by Butler County, though why it was done is a bit of a mystery. There are a few clues, though. The 1959 aerial shows Ohio Street Road making a spread-out wye on the south side of SW 20th Street, while the 1979 topographic map shows pavement on Ohio Street Road ending at the wye--north of it, it was just gravel. The 2002 aerial shows the grade separation in its current configuration and Ohio Street Road paved all the way north to its current intersection with relocated K-254.
I suspect that the northern mile and a half of Ohio Street Road was paved as a complement to the K-254 relocation and widening. It is uncharacteristically extravagant for Butler County to put in a grade separation instead of a four-way stop, and this may have been done to avoid creating new stop conditions for straight-through traffic on SW 20th Street. (There would have been pre-existing stop signs on either arm of the wye for northbound traffic going from Ohio Street Road to SW 20th Street in either direction, but these would have affected turning traffic only.)
Ohio Street Road gets its internally redundant name from the fact that it is the county road extension of Ohio Street in Augusta. It is currently a convenient paved shortcut between US 54 and K-254, though using it entails some knowledge of Augusta streets since it passes under the US 54 railroad viaduct instead of intersecting it on the level. In time it will become much less convenient because Augusta has no meaningful planning control and is sprawling north along Ohio Street.
While detouring due to a bridge that was out for reconstruction on Saturday, I ended up using the craziest path through this interchange while my wife and I were out running deliveries. This path totally defies common sense and, at each turn along the way, I was never quite sure if my next turn was even a possibility.
(https://i.imgur.com/UWCY3zE.png)
Quote from: thspfc on March 12, 2021, 10:22:04 AM
The WI-23 and CTH-Y interchange in Kohler is one of the stranger ones I've ever seen. It includes two seemingly unnesecary loop ramps, both servicing westbound WI-23. This interchange would be safer and take up less space if it were a simple diamond: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7532204,-87.779378,16.77z
My suspicion is that, since most of the development in the area is south of the interchange, they wanted to make all the primary turns right turns. This will allow for a lot more growth before traffic signals or intersection upgrades are needed.
This interchange (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0785785,-77.4843215,16.5z/data=!5m1!1e1), for example, carries an incredible amount of traffic with no traffic signals because all the primary turns are right turns; I've
mentioned it (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=21276.msg2265275#msg2265275) as possibly the busiest such interchange in the country.
Similar interchange I know of at I-270 and OH 3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1000306,-82.9252774,583m/data=!3m1!1e3)
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 12, 2021, 12:13:24 PM
Similar interchange I know of at I-270 and OH 3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1000306,-82.9252774,583m/data=!3m1!1e3)
That's nearly identical to...
Quote from: J N Winkler on March 05, 2021, 03:41:04 PM
The situation Kphoger is talking about is a compromised design dating from completion of the I-135/US 54 turban interchange in the late 1970's. This involved the upgrading of Kellogg from a surface arterial to a (relatively) modern freeway between Topeka (east fringe of downtown) and Bluff (a north-south road midway between Hillside and Oliver that was basically a collector but, at the time, functioned as a signalized access point to Kellogg). Putting in loops instead of link ramps for Hillside on eastbound Kellogg avoided taking Sunnyside, still an elementary school at the time but now an apartment building, as well as part of Calvary Cemetery. Even so, this decision still necessitated shifting the Kellogg centerline to the north--Kellogg Drive, which borders the cemetery, is actually in the footprint of the old road. The loops do create a weaving section, but to put in links would have created a weave between traffic entering from I-135 and traffic exiting onto Hillside that would arguably have been worse, and until the freeway was extended to Oliver and beyond, mainline traffic tended to slow down for a signal at Bluff. (It still slows down to a degree because this is the point at which eastbound Kellogg climbs out of the Arkansas River floodplain, with a gentle uphill grade that drivers almost uniformly fail to anticipate.)
Absent travel demand management, the logical fix would appear to be to braid ramps so that traffic exits for Hillside before the merge point for cars coming from I-135. I don't see this entering the development pipeline except as part of a widening of Kellogg that would displace its centerline further to the north and probably also involve the closure of the restricted-access interchange with Grove.
location here (https://goo.gl/maps/JUAm3npjNReNhVAS8)
Quote from: kphoger on March 12, 2021, 12:22:49 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 12, 2021, 12:13:24 PM
Similar interchange I know of at I-270 and OH 3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1000306,-82.9252774,583m/data=!3m1!1e3)
That's nearly identical to...
location here (https://goo.gl/maps/JUAm3npjNReNhVAS8)
The Ohio example is better than both the Kansas one and the OP one because it has a C/D lane,
shown here (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1002905,-82.9246271,3a,75y,82.17h,77.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxCdlPA4ezU0G1r1ihqUTLA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).
The Columbia-Portland Interchange (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9260707,-75.0929372,15.95z) in New Jersey is way overbuilt for the traffic it carries and the town it serves.
Quote from: webny99 on March 12, 2021, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 12, 2021, 12:22:49 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 12, 2021, 12:13:24 PM
Similar interchange I know of at I-270 and OH 3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1000306,-82.9252774,583m/data=!3m1!1e3)
That's nearly identical to...
location here (https://goo.gl/maps/JUAm3npjNReNhVAS8)
The Ohio example is better than both the Kansas one and the OP one because it has grade separation, shown here (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1002905,-82.9246271,3a,75y,82.17h,77.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxCdlPA4ezU0G1r1ihqUTLA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).
Huh? Both are grade-separated interchanges.
Quote from: webny99 on March 12, 2021, 12:28:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on March 12, 2021, 12:22:49 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 12, 2021, 12:13:24 PM
Similar interchange I know of at I-270 and OH 3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1000306,-82.9252774,583m/data=!3m1!1e3)
That's nearly identical to...
location here (https://goo.gl/maps/JUAm3npjNReNhVAS8)
The Ohio example is better than both the Kansas one and the OP one because it has grade separation, shown here (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1002905,-82.9246271,3a,75y,82.17h,77.88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxCdlPA4ezU0G1r1ihqUTLA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).
Are you referring to the C/D lane? All 3 interchanges have grade separation.
Reminds me of this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0716445,-73.7560106,15.88z) interchange on the Northway, which is built to allow for all right turns going to/from the Saratoga Racetrack.
Quote from: kphoger on March 12, 2021, 12:33:58 PM
Huh? Both are grade-separated interchanges.
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 12, 2021, 12:36:58 PM
Are you referring to the C/D lane? All 3 interchanges have grade separation.
Sorry, brain freeze. I was going for "separate from the main lanes" and it came out wrong. The C/D lane is what I was referring to.
Quote from: vdeane on March 12, 2021, 12:49:20 PM
Reminds me of this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0716445,-73.7560106,15.88z) interchange on the Northway, which is built to allow for all right turns going to/from the Saratoga Racetrack.
Which reminds me of this (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.9964114,-76.6456685,1055m/data=!3m1!1e3) at Route 54 and Interstate 80, which is even more egregious because there's nothing there!
Well, aside from the National Guard, but still!
The strangest one I've ever seen is still the one near Perth Amboy (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.520561,-74.3068696,16z).
I legitimately feel like we could have a RiffTrax-style game about the worst interchanges. But Perth Amboy may very well win that.
Seems like a common theme with a lot of weird, overbuilt interchanges coming from New Jersey from what's in this thread already.
Quote from: thspfc on March 12, 2021, 10:22:04 AM
The WI-23 and CTH-Y interchange in Kohler is one of the stranger ones I've ever seen. It includes two seemingly unnesecary loop ramps, both servicing westbound WI-23. This interchange would be safer and take up less space if it were a simple diamond: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7532204,-87.779378,16.77z
I think it's set up that way due to the interchange being too close to the WI-23 & I-43 interchange. I think it would've been a better design as a folded diamond, with all ramps being west of CTH-Y.
This interchange in NJ looks relatively innocent compared to the Perth Amboy interchange, but it still involves interchanges for 3 roadways. Maybe more significant: None of them are limited access highways. https://goo.gl/maps/hMtBgdd3XSFg58Nv7
Two of the movements: 73 North to 41 North and and 41 North to 38 West involves using the 3rd route to complete the movement. 73 South to 38 West can be done 2 different way, with the indirect way (73 to 41 to 38) being the shorter and quicker option.
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 12, 2021, 01:28:55 PM
Seems like a common theme with a lot of weird, overbuilt interchanges coming from New Jersey from what's in this thread already.
I saw a comment once, don't remember where other than that it wasn't on this forum (though I may well have repeated it here), that described New Jersey's interchange design strategy as to start with a relatively basic standard design and then just arbitrarily throw in as many extra ramps as you need to achieve the desired result. I'm not sure Perth Amboy qualifies for that, but Exit 10 on the Turnpike does with the combination of a trumpet and something based on a partial cloverleaf (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5283826,-74.3427081,15.5z), and the interchange outside Short Hills Mall similarly demonstrates cloverleaf underpinnings with various extra ramps tossed into the mix (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.738837,-74.3693959,17z). Even the mess near Newark Airport reflects a combination of a trumpet and aspects of cloverleaf designs (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7096528,-74.1792706,15.5z).
Not as egregious as other examples, but the lack of two movements makes this interchange in Reading (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3512751,-75.9623177,1040m/data=!3m1!1e3) somewhat clustery, especially considering how both routes leave the freeway to make way for a route that doesn't even end up being a freeway after a few moments.
And, of course, there's always this one in Mexico, which actually seems to work pretty well in my experience:
https://goo.gl/maps/8k5PfoaqoFCZLqMY9
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 12, 2021, 01:58:38 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 12, 2021, 01:28:55 PM
Seems like a common theme with a lot of weird, overbuilt interchanges coming from New Jersey from what's in this thread already.
I saw a comment once, don't remember where other than that it wasn't on this forum (though I may well have repeated it here), that described New Jersey's interchange design strategy as to start with a relatively basic standard design and then just arbitrarily throw in as many extra ramps as you need to achieve the desired result. I'm not sure Perth Amboy qualifies for that, but Exit 10 on the Turnpike does with the combination of a trumpet and something based on a partial cloverleaf (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5283826,-74.3427081,15.5z), and the interchange outside Short Hills Mall similarly demonstrates cloverleaf underpinnings with various extra ramps tossed into the mix (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.738837,-74.3693959,17z). Even the mess near Newark Airport reflects a combination of a trumpet and aspects of cloverleaf designs (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7096528,-74.1792706,15.5z).
One of the least common interchange designs in NJ is the most common elsewhere: The standard diamond interchange. Even at sparsely, low volume interchanges like I-295's Exit 4, they create something that seems very exaggerated for what is needed, and then there's a cloverleaf ramp thrown in when a simple left turn onto the other ramp would've done the job: https://goo.gl/maps/2XfoUfQ4qShKwAfaA . The AC Expressway is probably the only roadway in the state that consistently used diamond interchanges, even with the 2 lane toll plazas necessary on specific ramps.
Quote from: thspfc on March 12, 2021, 10:22:04 AM
The WI-23 and CTH-Y interchange in Kohler is one of the stranger ones I've ever seen. It includes two seemingly unnesecary loop ramps, both servicing westbound WI-23. This interchange would be safer and take up less space if it were a simple diamond: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7532204,-87.779378,16.77z
Here's another of that style with another, extra ramp, I-74 and Main Street, Galesburg, IL: https://goo.gl/maps/coNuLEHZf8yPMcCr6
Quote from: kphoger on March 12, 2021, 04:41:10 PM
And, of course, there's always this one in Mexico, which actually seems to work pretty well in my experience:
https://goo.gl/maps/8k5PfoaqoFCZLqMY9
Reminds me a bit of this one, Lake Shore Drive and 47th Street: https://goo.gl/maps/cTrwnbdQbHoHeLJs9
It was even more interesting when the exit/entry lane northbound was separated by only paint.
Quote from: webny99 on March 12, 2021, 12:01:26 PM
Quote from: thspfc on March 12, 2021, 10:22:04 AM
The WI-23 and CTH-Y interchange in Kohler is one of the stranger ones I've ever seen. It includes two seemingly unnesecary loop ramps, both servicing westbound WI-23. This interchange would be safer and take up less space if it were a simple diamond: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7532204,-87.779378,16.77z
My suspicion is that, since most of the development in the area is south of the interchange, they wanted to make all the primary turns right turns. This will allow for a lot more growth before traffic signals or intersection upgrades are needed.
This interchange (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0785785,-77.4843215,16.5z/data=!5m1!1e1), for example, carries an incredible amount of traffic with no traffic signals because all the primary turns are right turns; I've mentioned it (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=21276.msg2265275#msg2265275) as possibly the busiest such interchange in the country.
That's a possibility.
I-264 and Witchduck Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8391605,-76.1583967,980m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1) in Virginia Beach, VA.
This interchange is currently being overhauled apart of the I-64 / I-264 Interchange Improvement Project Phase 2 which will be complete by the end of the year. Once complete, the double loops will be removed and replaced with a more traditional design that eliminates the mainline weaving.
(https://files.constantcontact.com/5ebe224c501/e238d214-2bcf-43c7-882a-d1f770f84c61.jpg)
Quote from: thspfc on March 12, 2021, 10:22:04 AM
The WI-23 and CTH-Y interchange in Kohler is one of the stranger ones I've ever seen. It includes two seemingly unnesecary loop ramps, both servicing westbound WI-23. This interchange would be safer and take up less space if it were a simple diamond: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7532204,-87.779378,16.77z
Looks somewhat similar to SB US 41 at Washington Street near Waukegan, IL (https://goo.gl/maps/K8H1Xi5e87xX3XKj7)
Quote from: Revive 755 on March 12, 2021, 10:47:03 PM
Quote from: thspfc on March 12, 2021, 10:22:04 AM
The WI-23 and CTH-Y interchange in Kohler is one of the stranger ones I've ever seen. It includes two seemingly unnesecary loop ramps, both servicing westbound WI-23. This interchange would be safer and take up less space if it were a simple diamond: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.7532204,-87.779378,16.77z
Looks somewhat similar to SB US 41 at Washington Street near Waukegan, IL (https://goo.gl/maps/K8H1Xi5e87xX3XKj7)
looks an bit like the old scissors ramp that used to be on I-94 / US-41 up in WI
The interchange at Beltway 8 and the Westpark Tollway is probably the most bizarre in Houston (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7183206,-95.5569931,1025m/data=!3m1!1e3). It looks even weirder (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7177941,-95.556546,3a,75y,32.08h,88.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7hd2eBwiRVCOOMJiEX5KNA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) from the (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7188909,-95.5566865,3a,75y,299.78h,76.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s4KJ3v_hw53uJCCYXkLNhTw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D4KJ3v_hw53uJCCYXkLNhTw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D146.92694%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) road. (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7211897,-95.5574425,3a,61.3y,346.32h,81.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXd5HR3qSAAjNw-Pkn-aIjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 12, 2021, 12:13:24 PM
Similar interchange I know of at I-270 and OH 3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1000306,-82.9252774,583m/data=!3m1!1e3)
Part of that might have been because of the railroad underpass just to the west of the interchange. Perhaps it was just to save the cost of constructing another overpass, as was done with the WB on-ramp.
Having said that, the railroad tracks that pass through there were abandoned over 30 years ago.
The Kentucky parkway system has some real oddball interchanges. There are a few where all four ramps are loop ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8715494,-85.300604,730m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) for some reason, and when looking for an example of that I also came across this thing (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.750172,-85.6746013,867m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en), which seems to be an inside-out folded diamond interchange. Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see any practical reason for these designs.
Closer to home, I've always found I-5/I-405/SR 518 (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.4626151,-122.2648531,1416m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) to be a bit perplexing. I get that there are some topographic challenges going on there, but the assortment of left and right exits and one single loop ramp thrown into the mix just seems strange. The surrounding ramps to surface streets are always a bit confusing to use, too.
Quote from: jay8g on March 14, 2021, 03:27:50 AM
The Kentucky parkway system has some real oddball interchanges. There are a few where all four ramps are loop ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8715494,-85.300604,730m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) for some reason, and when looking for an example of that I also came across this thing (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.750172,-85.6746013,867m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en), which seems to be an inside-out folded diamond interchange. Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see any practical reason for these designs.
Tollbooths. The idea was to have a single tollbooth in a central location accessible by all traffic. Here's the second one in 1983.
(https://i.imgur.com/aEETp02.png)
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 12, 2021, 12:59:56 PM
The strangest one I've ever seen is still the one near Perth Amboy (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.520561,-74.3068696,16z).
Ye gads, I believe you've found Cthulhu (https://lovecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Cthulhu). It's especially strange when you consider the C/D lanes extend north to the NJ Turnpike.
Like why does nj only use toll booths?
Quote from: tolbs17 on March 14, 2021, 03:35:10 PM
Like why does nj only use toll booths?
New Hampshire does, too.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 14, 2021, 03:55:05 AM
Quote from: jay8g on March 14, 2021, 03:27:50 AM
The Kentucky parkway system has some real oddball interchanges. There are a few where all four ramps are loop ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8715494,-85.300604,730m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) for some reason, and when looking for an example of that I also came across this thing (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.750172,-85.6746013,867m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en), which seems to be an inside-out folded diamond interchange. Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see any practical reason for these designs.
Tollbooths. The idea was to have a single tollbooth in a central location accessible by all traffic. Here's the second one in 1983.
[img
For a modern and more robust example,
see here (https://goo.gl/maps/ds9a5WS64h3LRDup8).
Quote from: tolbs17 on March 14, 2021, 03:35:10 PM
Like why does nj only use toll booths?
Their system is from the 1950's and 1960's, and pressure to continue taking cash payments have limited its advancement to full ETC.
There are some exceptions - there's a ETC-only plaza on the GSP, and two ramp ETC-only plazas at Interchange 17 of the ACX: https://goo.gl/maps/iP5AaghpUN1zeESj8
Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2021, 10:37:53 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 14, 2021, 03:55:05 AM
Quote from: jay8g on March 14, 2021, 03:27:50 AM
The Kentucky parkway system has some real oddball interchanges. There are a few where all four ramps are loop ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8715494,-85.300604,730m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) for some reason, and when looking for an example of that I also came across this thing (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.750172,-85.6746013,867m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en), which seems to be an inside-out folded diamond interchange. Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see any practical reason for these designs.
Tollbooths. The idea was to have a single tollbooth in a central location accessible by all traffic. Here's the second one in 1983.
[img
For a modern and more robust example, see here (https://goo.gl/maps/ds9a5WS64h3LRDup8).
In your example, interesting to see that the ramp network has at-grade crossings among itself. I personally can't think of any other situations like that.
I just sent this at-grade nonsense from the Adirondacks to a couple friends last night. I imagine this leading to a lot of confusion for people making left turns, and therefore crashes. https://www.google.com/maps/@44.1019636,-73.688917,434m/data=!3m1!1e3
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 15, 2021, 10:39:48 PM
I just sent this at-grade nonsense from the Adirondacks to a couple friends last night. I imagine this leading to a lot of confusion for people making left turns, and therefore crashes. https://www.google.com/maps/@44.1019636,-73.688917,434m/data=!3m1!1e3
Better or worse than
IL-15/US-45 (https://goo.gl/maps/zmKeQVnvTTbFdoqZA) on the west end of Fairfield?
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 15, 2021, 10:39:48 PM
I just sent this at-grade nonsense from the Adirondacks to a couple friends last night. I imagine this leading to a lot of confusion for people making left turns, and therefore crashes. https://www.google.com/maps/@44.1019636,-73.688917,434m/data=!3m1!1e3
I think the yields as opposed to stops along with the lack of "Do Not Enter" or "Wrong Way" signs is another major factor that would lead to crashes.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 15, 2021, 10:39:48 PM
I just sent this at-grade nonsense from the Adirondacks to a couple friends last night. I imagine this leading to a lot of confusion for people making left turns, and therefore crashes. https://www.google.com/maps/@44.1019636,-73.688917,434m/data=!3m1!1e3
That's close to the previous design of US-41 and the decommissioned business route in Marquette. Until it got replaced by a roundabout.
Then this mess at either end of the 2-lane US-17 Vanceboro bypass in North Carolina.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2881952,-77.1289871,530m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.3332905,-77.1499587,485m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
Quote from: kphoger on March 16, 2021, 10:30:22 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 15, 2021, 10:39:48 PM
I just sent this at-grade nonsense from the Adirondacks to a couple friends last night. I imagine this leading to a lot of confusion for people making left turns, and therefore crashes. https://www.google.com/maps/@44.1019636,-73.688917,434m/data=!3m1!1e3
Better or worse than IL-15/US-45 (https://goo.gl/maps/zmKeQVnvTTbFdoqZA) on the west end of Fairfield?
I think the NY one is much worse (having just traveled through it last fall and noticing how weird it was). At least the IL one has only one point of conflict; the NY one has several, and only yield signs instead of stop signs.
Here's the Street View (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.1016542,-73.6866129,3a,75y,294.32h,79.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snLn1gPrKMGW6ZeK-ldU3Sg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656);
here's another angle (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.1018059,-73.6868685,3a,44.2y,317.45h,82.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDZ-ZdRHiRkj3U1j8RKEEMg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (note the second crossing in the background).
I like it. Call me weird.
Quote from: kphoger on March 16, 2021, 11:13:44 AM
I like it. Call me weird.
Cool from a visual standpoint, but questionable from a functional standpoint.
Unless there is an actual high number of crashes there, I'm not questioning its functionality.
The intersection of Emmet Street and Jefferson Park Avenue in Charlottesville (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.0319299,-78.5082246,19.75z) used to have a similar layout to that and was controlled by yield signs. Unfortunately, the images on Historic Aerials are very grainy and blurry and you can't really see anything. Sometime after 1995, I guess the traffic got heavy enough that they decided to redesign the intersection and use a traffic light instead (except that traffic following southbound US-29 Business from Emmet to JPA can bypass the light). I liked it better the old way, but then, I usually prefer designs that don't use traffic lights when feasible.
There's half of one where NY 12 and NY 37 meet (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.5730432,-75.647147,3a,75y,171.85h,90.82t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVXpEqv5vRIiN4h3qcWmBCw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DVXpEqv5vRIiN4h3qcWmBCw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D58.989605%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656). One of the movements is handled with a U turn ramp.
US 9/NY 73 is interesting because it was built pre-Northway for a lot more traffic on US 9 than is there now. Most traffic these days is probably going to NY 73 from the exit on the Northway a mile south of there.
Quote from: vdeane on March 16, 2021, 02:27:06 PM
US 9/NY 73 is interesting because it was built pre-Northway for a lot more traffic on US 9 than is there now. Most traffic these days is probably going to NY 73 from the exit on the Northway a mile south of there.
Yup, that's what I was doing when passing through this past fall. A standard T-intersection with US 9 to NY 73 as the through movement would be more than sufficient.
Quote from: vdeane on March 16, 2021, 02:27:06 PM
There's half of one where NY 12 and NY 37 meet (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.5730432,-75.647147,3a,75y,171.85h,90.82t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sVXpEqv5vRIiN4h3qcWmBCw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DVXpEqv5vRIiN4h3qcWmBCw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D58.989605%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656). One of the movements is handled with a U turn ramp.
Similar to
Mexico 2/29 (https://goo.gl/maps/pSBWxwpSfh9QBR3A6), except that
this (https://goo.gl/maps/ALVkQNxz7L2G7nEB8) is the extent of the U turn ramp.
Quote from: kphoger on March 16, 2021, 02:35:22 PM
Similar to Mexico 2/29 (https://goo.gl/maps/pSBWxwpSfh9QBR3A6), except that this (https://goo.gl/maps/ALVkQNxz7L2G7nEB8) is the extent of the U turn ramp.
That looks like a leap of faith for large vehicles*.
*See what I did there?
Quote from: webny99 on March 16, 2021, 02:33:38 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 16, 2021, 02:27:06 PM
US 9/NY 73 is interesting because it was built pre-Northway for a lot more traffic on US 9 than is there now. Most traffic these days is probably going to NY 73 from the exit on the Northway a mile south of there.
Yup, that's what I was doing when passing through this past fall. A standard T-intersection with US 9 to NY 73 as the through movement would be more than sufficient.
Nah. I like it the way it is. Funnels traffic from the Northway up NY 73. It's fine as is.
Quote from: Rothman on March 17, 2021, 02:15:26 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 16, 2021, 02:33:38 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 16, 2021, 02:27:06 PM
US 9/NY 73 is interesting because it was built pre-Northway for a lot more traffic on US 9 than is there now. Most traffic these days is probably going to NY 73 from the exit on the Northway a mile south of there.
Yup, that's what I was doing when passing through this past fall. A standard T-intersection with US 9 to NY 73 as the through movement would be more than sufficient.
Nah. I like it the way it is. Funnels traffic from the Northway up NY 73. It's fine as is.
A T-intersection would do that as well if US 9 > NY 73 was the through movement. I'm not saying it needs to be redesigned, but if it ever was, a T-intersection would work.
Quote from: kphoger on March 15, 2021, 10:37:53 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 14, 2021, 03:55:05 AM
Quote from: jay8g on March 14, 2021, 03:27:50 AM
The Kentucky parkway system has some real oddball interchanges. There are a few where all four ramps are loop ramps (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.8715494,-85.300604,730m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en) for some reason, and when looking for an example of that I also came across this thing (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.750172,-85.6746013,867m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en), which seems to be an inside-out folded diamond interchange. Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see any practical reason for these designs.
Tollbooths. The idea was to have a single tollbooth in a central location accessible by all traffic. Here's the second one in 1983.
[img
For a modern and more robust example, see here (https://goo.gl/maps/ds9a5WS64h3LRDup8).
Oklahoma has one remaining example of this here (https://goo.gl/maps/2GWFmUZyu9hTyFoB8). There used to be another one on this same road, but the other one was converted into a conventional parclo.
Quote from: MCRoads on March 17, 2021, 03:50:28 PM
Oklahoma has one remaining example of this here (https://goo.gl/maps/2GWFmUZyu9hTyFoB8). There used to be another one on this same road, but the other one was converted into a conventional parclo.
Oklahoma has more than one remaining example of that. There is also one on the H. E. Bailey (https://goo.gl/maps/hT7BrsjA2qQi5tYx6), and two on the Cimarron [1] (https://goo.gl/maps/mooVmy97xHnTfUaY9), [2] (https://goo.gl/maps/ao7oB8drG3XagBkB9), plus half of one on the Cherokee (https://goo.gl/maps/hAKRRPGxwLnZwTNVA).
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 12, 2021, 12:59:56 PM
The strangest one I've ever seen is still the one near Perth Amboy (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.520561,-74.3068696,16z).
that, friend, is uglier than a truckload of pimples.
I drove through this five-ramp parclo interchange (https://goo.gl/maps/KGd7iVNsM394HtF78) in Shelby Township, MI yesterday. Roundabouts were constructed at the ramp termini in the past couple years but the loop ramp was not removed. That loop ramp is now completely redundant as northbound M-53 traffic can access either direction of 26 Mile Road from either exit ramp. I was confused at first; I knew I wanted to go west but my GPS directed me to use the exit ramp for eastbound 26 Mile, as heading west after going through the roundabout was a few feet shorter than using the loop ramp.
Has anyone mentioned the Ross Island Bridge clusterfu....errr....interchange in Portland, OR yet?
No?
The Ross Island mess in Portland OR. It's a hot mess to say the least. If you're looking to follow US 26 without a GPS and aren't from the area? Good luck.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 21, 2021, 07:04:50 PM
I drove through this five-ramp parclo interchange (https://goo.gl/maps/KGd7iVNsM394HtF78) in Shelby Township, MI yesterday. Roundabouts were constructed at the ramp termini in the past couple years but the loop ramp was not removed. That loop ramp is now completely redundant as northbound M-53 traffic can access either direction of 26 Mile Road from either exit ramp. I was confused at first; I knew I wanted to go west but my GPS directed me to use the exit ramp for eastbound 26 Mile, as heading west after going through the roundabout was a few feet shorter than using the loop ramp.
That is weird.
Quote from: kphoger on March 23, 2021, 12:33:01 PM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 21, 2021, 07:04:50 PM
I drove through this five-ramp parclo interchange (https://goo.gl/maps/KGd7iVNsM394HtF78) in Shelby Township, MI yesterday. Roundabouts were constructed at the ramp termini in the past couple years but the loop ramp was not removed. That loop ramp is now completely redundant as northbound M-53 traffic can access either direction of 26 Mile Road from either exit ramp. I was confused at first; I knew I wanted to go west but my GPS directed me to use the exit ramp for eastbound 26 Mile, as heading west after going through the roundabout was a few feet shorter than using the loop ramp.
That is weird.
My initial thought was yes, that is weird, but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. My guess is that the remaining loop is the busiest of the four "loop" movements. In order to prevent delays, the best alternative to leaving that loop intact would seem to be allowing left turn movements from multiple lanes, and
based on the design (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7136651,-83.0240173,3a,75y,353.85h,79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9ppNN4U3pAychOkypfKjXg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), you can see why it's not ideal to have heavy traffic trying to make that left turn movement. They would have had to include an extra lane around that leg of the loop, and likely add a third lane to the exit ramp to prevent delays to right-turning traffic, which is also not ideal. I wouldn't even be surprised if there's something coded into state law disallowing three-lane approaches to roundabouts.
I would absolutely choose the loop ramp to make the left turn movement, personally. But
here's a car (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.714175,-83.0241415,3a,75y,241.99h,75.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spU2fSi59pjDL_CHOQi4xfQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) doing the opposite - using the loop to make the
right turn movement. Now
that doesn't make any sense.
This monstrosity in Secaucus. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7576739,-74.0746116,1832m/data=!3m1!1e3)
Maybe not as convoluted as others, but I'm pretty sure this is the trump card in any Longest Onramps Ever game.
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 30, 2021, 08:23:26 PM
This monstrosity in Secaucus. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7576739,-74.0746116,1832m/data=!3m1!1e3)
Maybe not as convoluted as others, but I'm pretty sure this is the trump card in any Longest Onramps Ever game.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6136102,-87.426561,1700m/data=!3m1!1e3
Not as bad and kind of an breezewood interchange
The interchange between WA-18 and WA-167 in Auburn (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.3024006,-122.2540024,1866m/data=!3m1!1e3) is not bad. It works for the traffic it handles.
However, I would personally give it a "why?" stamp because although it takes a ton of land, it's still missing several maneuvers such as northbound to westbound and eastbound to southbound. Arguably the least important maneuvers but, with this much land, how did they not find a way to fit it in? Well...
WA-18 came first, alongside the interchange with West Valley Hwy. These were built around 1960. The full interchange with WA-167 came with its construction in the 1970s (then and still known as the Valley Fwy). Rather than rebuild the WA-18/West Valley Hwy interchange to free up room, it was decided to basically not touch it. That still left the state with plenty of ROW, but it doesn't seem to have been utilized all that well. Even looking at the existing movements, some of them are very unsafe (tight exits, tight merges, short weaves, weirdly shaped loop). Yet, again, so much ROW here to do something so much better.
So, to put it plainly: it's not that there isn't an explanation for why there are missing maneuvers. But WSDOT (or the preceding highway department) went the cheap route for the new interchange, and we're left today with a substandard design that takes tons of land and yet still has missing maneuvers. Brilliant.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 30, 2021, 09:33:36 PM
The interchange between WA-18 and WA-167 in Auburn (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.3024006,-122.2540024,1866m/data=!3m1!1e3) is not bad. It works for the traffic it handles.
However, I would personally give it a "why?" stamp because although it takes a ton of land, it's still missing several maneuvers such as northbound to westbound and eastbound to southbound. Arguably the least important maneuvers but, with this much land, how did they not find a way to fit it in? Well...
WA-18 came first, alongside the interchange with West Valley Hwy. These were built around 1960. The full interchange with WA-167 came with its construction in the 1970s (then and still known as the Valley Fwy). Rather than rebuild the WA-18/West Valley Hwy interchange to free up room, it was decided to basically not touch it. That still left the state with plenty of ROW, but it doesn't seem to have been utilized all that well. Even looking at the existing movements, some of them are very unsafe (tight exits, tight merges, short weaves, weirdly shaped loop). Yet, again, so much ROW here to do something so much better.
So, to put it plainly: it's not that there isn't an explanation for why there are missing maneuvers. But WSDOT (or the preceding highway department) went the cheap route for the new interchange, and we're left today with a substandard design that takes tons of land and yet still has missing maneuvers. Brilliant.
I remember you posting a redesign on the Redesigning Interchanges thread; I think maybe you should try proposing that to WSDOT.
(https://i.imgur.com/g23u3Bw.png)
The interchange between MA 9 and Speen Street in Natick, nicknamed "The Beetleback". It must be one of the most complex arterial-arterial interchanges out there, but it's crazy enough to work. It's the only part of the Golden Triangle that isn't a traffic nightmare. It does 3 very good things:
1. It distributes traffic through a series of one way streets, which reduces the number of traffic signal phases and allows many movements to occur unsignalized.
2. It uses braided ramps, which eliminate weaving on 9
3. It has a Texas U-Turn that allows for a 3 phase signal at Natick Mall Road
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 30, 2021, 10:26:00 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 30, 2021, 09:33:36 PM
The interchange between WA-18 and WA-167 in Auburn (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.3024006,-122.2540024,1866m/data=!3m1!1e3) is not bad. It works for the traffic it handles.
However, I would personally give it a "why?" stamp because although it takes a ton of land, it's still missing several maneuvers such as northbound to westbound and eastbound to southbound. Arguably the least important maneuvers but, with this much land, how did they not find a way to fit it in? Well...
WA-18 came first, alongside the interchange with West Valley Hwy. These were built around 1960. The full interchange with WA-167 came with its construction in the 1970s (then and still known as the Valley Fwy). Rather than rebuild the WA-18/West Valley Hwy interchange to free up room, it was decided to basically not touch it. That still left the state with plenty of ROW, but it doesn't seem to have been utilized all that well. Even looking at the existing movements, some of them are very unsafe (tight exits, tight merges, short weaves, weirdly shaped loop). Yet, again, so much ROW here to do something so much better.
So, to put it plainly: it's not that there isn't an explanation for why there are missing maneuvers. But WSDOT (or the preceding highway department) went the cheap route for the new interchange, and we're left today with a substandard design that takes tons of land and yet still has missing maneuvers. Brilliant.
I remember you posting a redesign on the Redesigning Interchanges thread; I think maybe you should try proposing that to WSDOT.
Yeah,
here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3618.msg2495299#msg2495299).
I've thought about sending it to them, but many design cues weren't necessarily anything more than whims (made without much real evidence). I
could send it, but I'd have to make some notes in the event they ask me about some of the design decisions.
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 30, 2021, 08:23:26 PM
This monstrosity in Secaucus. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7576739,-74.0746116,1832m/data=!3m1!1e3)
Maybe not as convoluted as others, but I'm pretty sure this is the trump card in any Longest Onramps Ever game.
2½ miles! (https://goo.gl/maps/Bfi4AEhN8Qf1jFUw6) On the other hand, it's easy to understand why it was built that way.
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 09:53:23 AM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 30, 2021, 08:23:26 PM
This monstrosity in Secaucus. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7576739,-74.0746116,1832m/data=!3m1!1e3)
Maybe not as convoluted as others, but I'm pretty sure this is the trump card in any Longest Onramps Ever game.
2½ miles! (https://goo.gl/maps/Bfi4AEhN8Qf1jFUw6) On the other hand, it's easy to understand why it was built that way.
Bit of a different situation, but reminds me of this (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.1108518,-76.2632768/43.1118569,-76.262283/@43.1093113,-76.2823991,15.08z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0) (3.5 miles from first crossing to second crossing) near Syracuse.
Quote from: webny99 on March 31, 2021, 10:14:55 AM
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 09:53:23 AM
Quote from: Hwy 61 Revisited on March 30, 2021, 08:23:26 PM
This monstrosity in Secaucus. (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7576739,-74.0746116,1832m/data=!3m1!1e3)
Maybe not as convoluted as others, but I'm pretty sure this is the trump card in any Longest Onramps Ever game.
2½ miles! (https://goo.gl/maps/Bfi4AEhN8Qf1jFUw6) On the other hand, it's easy to understand why it was built that way.
Bit of a different situation, but reminds me of this (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.1108518,-76.2632768/43.1118569,-76.262283/@43.1093113,-76.2823991,15.08z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0) (3.5 miles from first crossing to second crossing) near Syracuse.
But isn't there enough land to... like... shorten the curve??
^ Keep in mind that the Thruway was a ticket system and only very recently went AET. Now that it's AET, the curve could theoretically be shortened. But very little traffic actually makes that WB 690 to EB 90 movement. There would also be ramp spacing issues for shortening that curve with the WB 690 on-ramp at Exit 5.
Quote from: froggie on April 01, 2021, 11:57:19 AM
^ Keep in mind that the Thruway was a ticket system and only very recently went AET. Now that it's AET, the curve could theoretically be shortened. But very little traffic actually makes that WB 690 to EB 90 movement. There would also be ramp spacing issues for shortening that curve with the WB 690 on-ramp at Exit 5.
Also issues with the placement of the gantry for the exits 36-39 virtual ticket system - which is between the I-690 overpass and exit 39.
You should have seen the interchange between I-90 and I-690 before it was updated. I believe it included a traffic light. You can still see faint scars of where the old ramps were closer to the overpass.
https://goo.gl/maps/E6ePxwkJAvuJFWsP6
This interchange is really interesting. In actuality it's really a volleyball to US 75 but a diamond with the US 75 frontage road.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 08, 2021, 12:04:56 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/E6ePxwkJAvuJFWsP6
This interchange is really interesting. In actuality it's really a volleyball to US 75 but a diamond with the US 75 frontage road.
I'm not sure I follow. Aren't all volleyball interchanges just mutations of the split diamond?
The Magallanes Interchange in Makati (between SLEX and EDSA) was built in the mid-1970s and contains two flyover ramps, yet functionally is much worse with merging and left-exits than designs that were already decades old at that point, i.e. the Four-Level in LA which opened in the early 1950s.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Magallanes+Interchange,+Makati,+Metro+Manila,+Philippines/@14.5403552,121.014699,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x3397c93c2e67d28f:0xf9e65550199d17a2!8m2!3d14.5403552!4d121.0168877
One of the ramps (southbound Osmena Highway/SLEX to northbound EDSA) was closed in April 2019 to try to address the merge problems:
https://www.autoindustriya.com/auto-industry-news/mmda-closes-part-of-magallanes-interchange-going-to-edsa-northbound.html
To some degree, the existence of the Metro Manila Skyway can be traced in part to the problems with this interchange layout, as it offers a limited-access bypass above the entire ramp complex.
I'm surprised nobody brought up this monstrosity in the Kansas City area (I-35 / I-635).
All of the left exits, entrances, and curves here make this a "fun" interchange to navigate. I understand that they were trying to avoid a railroad but this is the scariest freeway to freeway interchange I've ever found myself on. There's even a yield sign at the end of the I-635 S to I-35 N ramp:
https://goo.gl/maps/gwebxuGhLa2ZDjHm9
Quote from: jakeroot on April 08, 2021, 12:11:15 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 08, 2021, 12:04:56 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/E6ePxwkJAvuJFWsP6
This interchange is really interesting. In actuality it's really a volleyball to US 75 but a diamond with the US 75 frontage road.
I'm not sure I follow. Aren't all volleyball interchanges just mutations of the split diamond?
Its odd because if you follow US 75, through the area you will not notice it. As Central Expressway has a local service road all interchanges are slip ramps to the service road and at grades are with the service road and intersecting roads. Spring Valley Road has an underpass beneath US 75 with a second underpass below it.
It is actually quite ingenious as it does keep traffic moving on Spring Valley Road bypassing the US 75 Service Roads Signals and has a shorter signal wait on the Service Road as well.
Its really an interchange within a freeway/ feeder system rather than a volleyball. Its a diamond with a couplet of one way roads with a freeway in the median of the two one way streets.
this seems like a hot mess to me.. gsv showed it under construction which makes it somehow hotter and messier.
https://goo.gl/maps/p3ZUmpnCZZSReV8DA (https://goo.gl/maps/p3ZUmpnCZZSReV8DA)
near nyack, ny
Quote from: ztonyg on April 08, 2021, 03:45:37 PM
I'm surprised nobody brought up this monstrosity in the Kansas City area (I-35 / I-635).
All of the left exits, entrances, and curves here make this a "fun" interchange to navigate. I understand that they were trying to avoid a railroad but this is the scariest freeway to freeway interchange I've ever found myself on. There's even a yield sign at the end of the I-635 S to I-35 N ramp:
https://goo.gl/maps/gwebxuGhLa2ZDjHm9
There appears to be enough right of way to make standard right exits and entrances...
Quote from: jakeroot on April 08, 2021, 12:11:15 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 08, 2021, 12:04:56 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/E6ePxwkJAvuJFWsP6
This interchange is really interesting. In actuality it's really a volleyball to US 75 but a diamond with the US 75 frontage road.
I'm not sure I follow. Aren't all volleyball interchanges just mutations of the split diamond?
I've always considered a volleyball as a "diamond interchange on both roads". Sure, you could argue it's a variant of a split diamond, but in that case it'd be a "double split diamond" since both roadways have a free-flow through movement with ramps to the other road.
(EDITED since Jake's post to include what I was referring to since I didn't realize there were several other comments before I had posted)
Quote from: froggie on April 10, 2021, 11:55:35 AM
^I've always considered a volleyball as a "diamond interchange on both roads". Sure, you could argue it's a variant of a split diamond, but in that case it'd be a "double split diamond" since both roadways have a free-flow through movement with ramps to the other road.
Honestly, I'd rather just call it a three-level square-about. Something about volleyball just doesn't describe, to me, the operation as well as "double split diamond" or "three level square-about".
Quote from: ztonyg on April 08, 2021, 03:45:37 PM
I'm surprised nobody brought up this monstrosity in the Kansas City area (I-35 / I-635).
All of the left exits, entrances, and curves here make this a "fun" interchange to navigate. I understand that they were trying to avoid a railroad but this is the scariest freeway to freeway interchange I've ever found myself on. There's even a yield sign at the end of the I-635 S to I-35 N ramp:
https://goo.gl/maps/gwebxuGhLa2ZDjHm9
This one wins my vote for worst freeway-to-freeway interchange in the country. What an embarrassment. This seems to be an overarching problem in the Kansas City area - they have so many freeways (most freeway miles per capita of any metro area in the country), that they seem to favor quantity over quality, and the result is a lot of substandard freeways and interchanges.
Quote from: roadman65 on April 09, 2021, 11:18:45 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 08, 2021, 12:11:15 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 08, 2021, 12:04:56 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/E6ePxwkJAvuJFWsP6
This interchange is really interesting. In actuality it's really a volleyball to US 75 but a diamond with the US 75 frontage road.
I'm not sure I follow. Aren't all volleyball interchanges just mutations of the split diamond?
Its odd because if you follow US 75, through the area you will not notice it. As Central Expressway has a local service road all interchanges are slip ramps to the service road and at grades are with the service road and intersecting roads. Spring Valley Road has an underpass beneath US 75 with a second underpass below it.
It is actually quite ingenious as it does keep traffic moving on Spring Valley Road bypassing the US 75 Service Roads Signals and has a shorter signal wait on the Service Road as well.
Its really an interchange within a freeway/ feeder system rather than a volleyball. Its a diamond with a couplet of one way roads with a freeway in the median of the two one way streets.
Thanks for sharing, interesting. Agreed that I've never understood the "volleyball" moniker (or heard anyone "in the business" say it) ... but this example looks like a three-level-diamond with a narrow median on the non-freeway [middle] level. If you check out the historic aerials photos, it looks around 2001-2004 the bottom level was added to what was previously a normal TX diamond interchange.
Quote from: CoreySamson on March 12, 2021, 11:36:08 PM
The interchange at Beltway 8 and the Westpark Tollway is probably the most bizarre in Houston (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7183206,-95.5569931,1025m/data=!3m1!1e3). It looks even weirder (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7177941,-95.556546,3a,75y,32.08h,88.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7hd2eBwiRVCOOMJiEX5KNA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) from the (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7188909,-95.5566865,3a,75y,299.78h,76.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s4KJ3v_hw53uJCCYXkLNhTw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D4KJ3v_hw53uJCCYXkLNhTw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D146.92694%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) road. (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7211897,-95.5574425,3a,61.3y,346.32h,81.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXd5HR3qSAAjNw-Pkn-aIjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
I just went through this thread, some interesting ones! Thanks for sharing this TX one - it's like they took the "three-level-diamond" and added capacity for the movements to / from the south. Then the SB to EB is pretty wild too- the number of weird walls and bridges at this interchange might win a prize IMO!
Quote from: johndoe on April 10, 2021, 05:53:52 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 09, 2021, 11:18:45 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 08, 2021, 12:11:15 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 08, 2021, 12:04:56 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/E6ePxwkJAvuJFWsP6
This interchange is really interesting. In actuality it's really a volleyball to US 75 but a diamond with the US 75 frontage road.
I'm not sure I follow. Aren't all volleyball interchanges just mutations of the split diamond?
Its odd because if you follow US 75, through the area you will not notice it. As Central Expressway has a local service road all interchanges are slip ramps to the service road and at grades are with the service road and intersecting roads. Spring Valley Road has an underpass beneath US 75 with a second underpass below it.
It is actually quite ingenious as it does keep traffic moving on Spring Valley Road bypassing the US 75 Service Roads Signals and has a shorter signal wait on the Service Road as well.
Its really an interchange within a freeway/ feeder system rather than a volleyball. Its a diamond with a couplet of one way roads with a freeway in the median of the two one way streets.
Thanks for sharing, interesting. Agreed that I've never understood the "volleyball" moniker (or heard anyone "in the business" say it) ... but this example looks like a three-level-diamond with a narrow median on the non-freeway [middle] level. If you check out the historic aerials photos, it looks around 2001-2004 the bottom level was added to what was previously a normal TX diamond interchange.
The term comes from the Field Guide to Interchanges (https://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/volleyball.html).
^ Predates that Field Guide. Kurumi coined the term in the early MTR days.
Quote from: johndoe on April 10, 2021, 06:41:05 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on March 12, 2021, 11:36:08 PM
The interchange at Beltway 8 and the Westpark Tollway is probably the most bizarre in Houston (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7183206,-95.5569931,1025m/data=!3m1!1e3). It looks even weirder (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7177941,-95.556546,3a,75y,32.08h,88.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7hd2eBwiRVCOOMJiEX5KNA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) from the (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7188909,-95.5566865,3a,75y,299.78h,76.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s4KJ3v_hw53uJCCYXkLNhTw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D4KJ3v_hw53uJCCYXkLNhTw%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D146.92694%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) road. (https://www.google.com/maps/@29.7211897,-95.5574425,3a,61.3y,346.32h,81.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXd5HR3qSAAjNw-Pkn-aIjw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
I just went through this thread, some interesting ones! Thanks for sharing this TX one - it's like they took the "three-level-diamond" and added capacity for the movements to / from the south. Then the SB to EB is pretty wild too- the number of weird walls and bridges at this interchange might win a prize IMO!
What's even stranger about this interchange is that its design (the trenches and tunnels) actually makes it very susceptible to flooding (not great in Houston). When it floods in Houston, it's not uncommon for the local meteorologists to pull up a traffic camera of the interchange to show the deluge.
Quote from: vdeane on April 10, 2021, 10:40:50 PM
The term comes from the Field Guide to Interchanges (https://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/volleyball.html).
Quote from: froggie on April 11, 2021, 07:27:57 AM
^ Predates that Field Guide. Kurumi coined the term in the early MTR days.
But
vdeane's link is to
Kurumi's website?
I'm aware of that. My point is that Kurumi coined that term before he created the Field Guide for his website.
Quote from: froggie on April 12, 2021, 10:13:13 PM
I'm aware of that. My point is that Kurumi coined that term before he created the Field Guide for his website.
That field guide
website may have come online after Scott's first reference to "volleyball", but I suspect his coining of the term "volleyball" long predates MTR. After all, his field guide website appears to have come online at nearly the same time that MTR was first published on Usenet.
Quote from: jakeroot on April 13, 2021, 01:30:13 AM
Quote from: froggie on April 12, 2021, 10:13:13 PM
I'm aware of that. My point is that Kurumi coined that term before he created the Field Guide for his website.
That field guide website may have come online after Scott's first reference to "volleyball", but I suspect his coining of the term "volleyball" long predates MTR. After all, his field guide website appears to have come online at nearly the same time that MTR was first published on Usenet.
MTR was already quite active before I joined around 1996 or so. I didn't have a site until then. The "volleyball" term came a year or two after that; a quick search of what's left of MTR in Google Groups shows the first mention in 1998.
Quote from: kurumi on April 13, 2021, 12:20:25 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 13, 2021, 01:30:13 AM
Quote from: froggie on April 12, 2021, 10:13:13 PM
I'm aware of that. My point is that Kurumi coined that term before he created the Field Guide for his website.
That field guide website may have come online after Scott's first reference to "volleyball", but I suspect his coining of the term "volleyball" long predates MTR. After all, his field guide website appears to have come online at nearly the same time that MTR was first published on Usenet.
MTR was already quite active before I joined around 1996 or so. I didn't have a site until then. The "volleyball" term came a year or two after that; a quick search of what's left of MTR in Google Groups shows the first mention in 1998.
Thanks for clearing that up. What was the original source of the term, then? Was it an amalgamation of opinions on MTR at the time? Or was it as simple as "this looks like a volleyball from the top, ergo, 'volleyball interchange'"?
This one (https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B049'44.5%22N+83%C2%B057'25.4%22W/@40.8300977,-83.9611554,1442m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x883e94fd3b57f93f:0x97265dd589edbd62!2sBeaverdam,+OH!3b1!8m2!3d40.8333852!4d-83.9766102!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d40.8290176!4d-83.957057) on US 30 in Beaverdam, Ohio is always at the top of my "why" interchanges.
This interchange was constructed when the US 30 expressway was extended to the east around 1999. When the westerly portion of the US 30 expressway was originally built, it ended at a diamond interchange with Lincoln Highway (Old US 30). At some point ODOT decided to build the easterly extension to the south of old 30 instead of north. Then the politics from the truck stops lobbying to keep a mini-Breezewood situation in place for the moves from US 30 to I-75 led to this design.
Instead of a simple trumpet, eastbound 30 has a left exit and a left entrance for no conceivable engineering reason I can see. The exits themselves are engineered well and don't appear to cause a danger. That said, introducing left exits for a major split just to end at a traffic light at Lincoln Highway just seems like overengineering to me.
Quote from: zzcarp on April 13, 2021, 12:38:42 PM
This one (https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B049'44.5%22N+83%C2%B057'25.4%22W/@40.8300977,-83.9611554,1442m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x883e94fd3b57f93f:0x97265dd589edbd62!2sBeaverdam,+OH!3b1!8m2!3d40.8333852!4d-83.9766102!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d40.8290176!4d-83.957057) on US 30 in Beaverdam, Ohio is always at the top of my "why" interchanges.
This interchange was constructed when the US 30 expressway was extended to the east around 1999. When the westerly portion of the US 30 expressway was originally built, it ended at a diamond interchange with Lincoln Highway (Old US 30). At some point ODOT decided to build the easterly extension to the south of old 30 instead of north. Then the politics from the truck stops lobbying to keep a mini-Breezewood situation in place for the moves from US 30 to I-75 led to this design.
Instead of a simple trumpet, eastbound 30 has a left exit and a left entrance for no conceivable engineering reason I can see. The exits themselves are engineered well and don't appear to cause a danger. That said, introducing left exits for a major split just to end at a traffic light at Lincoln Highway just seems like overengineering to me.
Wow you can fit the entire town right next to it into the massive amount of space being used for a simple exit
Quote from: zzcarp on April 13, 2021, 12:38:42 PM
This one (https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B049'44.5%22N+83%C2%B057'25.4%22W/@40.8300977,-83.9611554,1442m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x883e94fd3b57f93f:0x97265dd589edbd62!2sBeaverdam,+OH!3b1!8m2!3d40.8333852!4d-83.9766102!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d40.8290176!4d-83.957057) on US 30 in Beaverdam, Ohio is always at the top of my "why" interchanges.
This interchange was constructed when the US 30 expressway was extended to the east around 1999. When the westerly portion of the US 30 expressway was originally built, it ended at a diamond interchange with Lincoln Highway (Old US 30). At some point ODOT decided to build the easterly extension to the south of old 30 instead of north. Then the politics from the truck stops lobbying to keep a mini-Breezewood situation in place for the moves from US 30 to I-75 led to this design.
Instead of a simple trumpet, eastbound 30 has a left exit and a left entrance for no conceivable engineering reason I can see. The exits themselves are engineered well and don't appear to cause a danger. That said, introducing left exits for a major split just to end at a traffic light at Lincoln Highway just seems like overengineering to me.
This may be a good exercise for the Redesigning interchanges thread.
EDIT: nvm, it's been done there twice already. Search 'Beaverdam' there.
Quote from: jakeroot on April 13, 2021, 12:34:04 PM
What was the original source of the term, then? Was it an amalgamation of opinions on MTR at the time? Or was it as simple as "this looks like a volleyball from the top, ergo, 'volleyball interchange'"?
Its says right there in the guide:
Quote from: https://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/volleyball.html
It's a little like volleyball in that each roadway handles its own freewayness, but leaves the details of the interchange to the other one -- like two players on a back line yelling "Yours!" as the ball bounces between them.
Personally, I have a couple of issues:
1. I've never been able to conceptualize a split-level diamond interchange in the same way |kurumi| does. For that reason, I frequently wonder if I'm incorrect about what a volleyball interchange actually is.
2. It may be a bit of an overstatement for |kurumi| to have said he has made a "contribution to colloquial English". How many people have to adopt your term for it to be considered "colloquial English"?
Quote from: kphoger on April 13, 2021, 03:59:48 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 13, 2021, 12:34:04 PM
What was the original source of the term, then? Was it an amalgamation of opinions on MTR at the time? Or was it as simple as "this looks like a volleyball from the top, ergo, 'volleyball interchange'"?
Its says right there in the guide:
Quote from: https://www.kurumi.com/roads/interchanges/volleyball.html
It's a little like volleyball in that each roadway handles its own freewayness, but leaves the details of the interchange to the other one -- like two players on a back line yelling "Yours!" as the ball bounces between them.
That's half the answer. What I was curious about was whether there were other competing terms at the time, or who first thought to describe it as a volleyball.
Quote from: SkyPesos on April 13, 2021, 12:57:17 PM
Quote from: zzcarp on April 13, 2021, 12:38:42 PM
This one (https://www.google.com/maps/place/40%C2%B049'44.5%22N+83%C2%B057'25.4%22W/@40.8300977,-83.9611554,1442m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m14!1m7!3m6!1s0x883e94fd3b57f93f:0x97265dd589edbd62!2sBeaverdam,+OH!3b1!8m2!3d40.8333852!4d-83.9766102!3m5!1s0x0:0x0!7e2!8m2!3d40.8290176!4d-83.957057) on US 30 in Beaverdam, Ohio is always at the top of my "why" interchanges.
This interchange was constructed when the US 30 expressway was extended to the east around 1999. When the westerly portion of the US 30 expressway was originally built, it ended at a diamond interchange with Lincoln Highway (Old US 30). At some point ODOT decided to build the easterly extension to the south of old 30 instead of north. Then the politics from the truck stops lobbying to keep a mini-Breezewood situation in place for the moves from US 30 to I-75 led to this design.
Instead of a simple trumpet, eastbound 30 has a left exit and a left entrance for no conceivable engineering reason I can see. The exits themselves are engineered well and don't appear to cause a danger. That said, introducing left exits for a major split just to end at a traffic light at Lincoln Highway just seems like overengineering to me.
This may be a good exercise for the Redesigning interchanges thread.
EDIT: nvm, it's been done there twice already. Search 'Beaverdam' there.
Here (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3618.0) is the thread in question. I believe the relevant posts are replies:
150
154
155
1500
1503
1504
1505
1506
1507
1508
1509
1510
1512
1513
Let me know if I missed any.
I hope this hasn't been brought up before, but can anyone tell me the backstory on this part of this sorta-cloverleaf: https://goo.gl/maps/CX8UkxyMQvukizVE7
Really what I'm wondering is, why does the ramp from EB Southern State Parkway to SB CR 13/Fifth Avenue need a ramp leading back to EB Southern State Parkway and a slip lane to the ramp that you're already on? It also does the same thing from the WB direction. :confused:
Quote from: stridentweasel on April 16, 2021, 01:48:42 PM
I hope this hasn't been brought up before, but can anyone tell me the backstory on this part of this sorta-cloverleaf: https://goo.gl/maps/CX8UkxyMQvukizVE7
Really what I'm wondering is, why does the ramp from EB Southern State Parkway to SB CR 13/Fifth Avenue need a ramp leading back to EB Southern State Parkway and a slip lane to the ramp that you're already on? It also does the same thing from the WB direction. :confused:
Looks like those ramps doubled/double as
rest (https://goo.gl/maps/ALcg4daZmTZHCuuV6)
stops (https://goo.gl/maps/p8BgufEaHzDWKRKZ7)? If so, then the slips are for resting traffic to get back on the highway. Just a guess.
Quote from: kphoger on April 16, 2021, 01:56:18 PM
Looks like those ramps doubled/double as rest (https://goo.gl/maps/ALcg4daZmTZHCuuV6) stops (https://goo.gl/maps/p8BgufEaHzDWKRKZ7)? If so, then the slips are for resting traffic to get back on the highway. Just a guess.
Good observation! I suppose those come in handy when you need a
payphone and/or a trash can.
Quote from: stridentweasel on April 16, 2021, 01:48:42 PM
I hope this hasn't been brought up before, but can anyone tell me the backstory on this part of this sorta-cloverleaf: https://goo.gl/maps/CX8UkxyMQvukizVE7
Really what I'm wondering is, why does the ramp from EB Southern State Parkway to SB CR 13/Fifth Avenue need a ramp leading back to EB Southern State Parkway and a slip lane to the ramp that you're already on? It also does the same thing from the WB direction. :confused:
In Streetview, it looks like there have been bus stops on the ramps between the exit ramps and the entrance ramps.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 30, 2021, 09:33:36 PM
The interchange between WA-18 and WA-167 in Auburn (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.3024006,-122.2540024,1866m/data=!3m1!1e3) is not bad. It works for the traffic it handles.
However, I would personally give it a "why?" stamp because although it takes a ton of land, it's still missing several maneuvers such as northbound to westbound and eastbound to southbound. Arguably the least important maneuvers but, with this much land, how did they not find a way to fit it in? Well...
WA-18 came first, alongside the interchange with West Valley Hwy. These were built around 1960. The full interchange with WA-167 came with its construction in the 1970s (then and still known as the Valley Fwy). Rather than rebuild the WA-18/West Valley Hwy interchange to free up room, it was decided to basically not touch it. That still left the state with plenty of ROW, but it doesn't seem to have been utilized all that well. Even looking at the existing movements, some of them are very unsafe (tight exits, tight merges, short weaves, weirdly shaped loop). Yet, again, so much ROW here to do something so much better.
So, to put it plainly: it's not that there isn't an explanation for why there are missing maneuvers. But WSDOT (or the preceding highway department) went the cheap route for the new interchange, and we're left today with a substandard design that takes tons of land and yet still has missing maneuvers. Brilliant.
I noticed in my 1977 Thomas Bros map that they falsely show the interchange built out with flyovers.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51178533634_9e64d3095a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kYtn1W)
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on May 14, 2021, 01:33:49 AM
I noticed in my 1977 Thomas Bros map that they falsely show the interchange built out with flyovers.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51178533634_9e64d3095a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kYtn1W)
:-o
Gotta wonder if that was someone drawing with an inspired mind, or if there were genuinely plans for a better interchange there.
At any rate, this is easily the first and only 'IRL' reference to any flyovers at 18/Valley Fwy interchange that I have ever seen. So, yeah, amazing find.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 14, 2021, 02:23:45 AM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on May 14, 2021, 01:33:49 AM
I noticed in my 1977 Thomas Bros map that they falsely show the interchange built out with flyovers.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51178533634_9e64d3095a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kYtn1W)
:-o
Gotta wonder if that was someone drawing with an inspired mind, or if there were genuinely plans for a better interchange there.
At any rate, this is easily the first and only 'IRL' reference to any flyovers at 18/Valley Fwy interchange that I have ever seen. So, yeah, amazing find.
If that's in the same land area as the current interchange, that's impressive if I say so myself, considering the existing interchange is missing two ramp movements while this one got it all.
I would love to know the story behind the interchange at Paseo del Norte (NM 423) and 2nd St (https://goo.gl/maps/BAL713YBc7cG6yFF7) in Albuquerque. It’s basically a SPUI, but with left exits and right entrances.
I have never seen this design anywhere else. Seems like those left exits would make it more dangerous while providing no real benefit otherwise.
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 14, 2021, 08:29:34 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 14, 2021, 02:23:45 AM
Quote from: ErmineNotyours on May 14, 2021, 01:33:49 AM
I noticed in my 1977 Thomas Bros map that they falsely show the interchange built out with flyovers.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51178533634_9e64d3095a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kYtn1W)
:-o
Gotta wonder if that was someone drawing with an inspired mind, or if there were genuinely plans for a better interchange there.
At any rate, this is easily the first and only 'IRL' reference to any flyovers at 18/Valley Fwy interchange that I have ever seen. So, yeah, amazing find.
If that's in the same land area as the current interchange, that's impressive if I say so myself, considering the existing interchange is missing two ramp movements while this one got it all.
To be fair, the design shown above almost totally eliminates the interchange with West Valley Hwy (shown on the map as both "60th Ave S" and WA-181), which frees up a substantial amount of room on the west side of the interchange. That interchange, which is vintage early-1960s, was decided to be kept basically in its entirety when the Valley Fwy was pushed through in the 70s. That made flyovers and full connections very difficult, as there was very little room for additional ramps on the west side of the interchange. There would have been ways to figure it out, sure, but I guess they decided it wasn't worth it.
For
my redesign (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=3618.msg2495299#msg2495299) last April, which actually puts the
flyovers in the opposing corners (they also propose an additional sweeping ramp EB to SB that goes below-grade), I eliminated said interchange's movements to/from the east to free up land area and allow proper ramps. They have gone to the extreme in this map and simply eliminated all movements between the freeways and West Valley Hwy, apart from a singular westbound off-ramp.
Quote from: US 89 on May 14, 2021, 09:28:23 AM
I would love to know the story behind the interchange at Paseo del Norte (NM 423) and 2nd St (https://goo.gl/maps/BAL713YBc7cG6yFF7) in Albuquerque. It's basically a SPUI, but with left exits and right entrances.
I have never seen this design anywhere else. Seems like those left exits would make it more dangerous while providing no real benefit otherwise.
Interesting case -- was this interchange originally constructed like this, or did it have a different design previously?
I can't say I've ever seen a SPUI underneath the freeway; they're almost always on an overpass for obvious visibility reasons. So if there was some reason why Paseo Del Norte Blvd needed to have the overpass (or if that's how it was designed previously), the wide median with the SPUI in the middle makes at least some degree of sense.
Quote from: US 89 on May 14, 2021, 09:28:23 AM
I would love to know the story behind the interchange at Paseo del Norte (NM 423) and 2nd St (https://goo.gl/maps/BAL713YBc7cG6yFF7) in Albuquerque. It's basically a SPUI, but with left exits and right entrances.
I have never seen this design anywhere else. Seems like those left exits would make it more dangerous while providing no real benefit otherwise.
Here's an example like that one at I-170 and MO 180 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.7047615,-90.3397325,3a,75y,353.34h,83.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4vEixH59CVp4Dk7aBwK5vw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) with the wide median, though the exit ramps are on the right.
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 12:33:40 PM
I can't say I've ever seen a SPUI underneath the freeway; they're almost always on an overpass for obvious visibility reasons.
Take a look at I-15 in the SLC area on GSV. I counted 8 under SPUIs in a row (excluding the I-215 interchange) between 12300 South and the southern I-80 interchange. Compared to some other ones I've been on (*cough* I-64 and US 67 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6353121,-90.4060096,3a,75y,47.78h,81.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLaTuNgrAjMVODz_zGfR7Og!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-US)), the off-ramp left turn signals have great visibility, as they're placed on the overpass.
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 12:33:40 PM
Quote from: US 89 on May 14, 2021, 09:28:23 AM
I would love to know the story behind the interchange at Paseo del Norte (NM 423) and 2nd St (https://goo.gl/maps/BAL713YBc7cG6yFF7) in Albuquerque. It’s basically a SPUI, but with left exits and right entrances.
I have never seen this design anywhere else. Seems like those left exits would make it more dangerous while providing no real benefit otherwise.
Interesting case -- was this interchange originally constructed like this, or did it have a different design previously?
I can't say I've ever seen a SPUI underneath the freeway; they're almost always on an overpass for obvious visibility reasons. So if there was some reason why Paseo Del Norte Blvd needed to have the overpass (or if that's how it was designed previously), the wide median with the SPUI in the middle makes at least some degree of sense.
The Albuquerque interchange was built in that configuration in the mid-1990s. Before then it was an at-grade intersection.
And to SkyPesos's point about the SPUIs in the Salt Lake area - by my count, Utah currently has 38 SPUIs, and 27 of them have the freeway over the interchange which seems to be the default for new construction. In fact, with the ongoing Bangerter Highway interchange upgrades in the southwest Salt Lake Valley, at least two proposed interchanges were initially planned as freeway-over SPUIs but were changed to freeway-under after the public comment period.
SPUI's are non-existent in this area, which is probably why I'm not used to seeing them under the freeway. It seems like a disaster waiting to happen for first-time users.
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 02:59:58 PM
SPUI's are non-existent in this area, which is probably why I'm not used to seeing them under the freeway. It seems like a disaster waiting to happen for first-time users.
Eh, I've never seen anybody have issues with any of ours. Especially compared with some of the unconventional designs around here like DDIs and CFIs, SPUIs of any sort seem very intuitive.
One advantage of a freeway-over configuration is that it's rather difficult to plow a SPUI when it snows because there's such a large pavement area - but this is obviously less of an issue if you have the freeway over the interchange. This is not as much of an issue in areas where it doesn't snow a lot, but both Utah and New York get enough regular snowstorms in winter that I'd imagine this factors into the analysis in some way.
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 02:59:58 PM
It seems like a disaster waiting to happen for first-time users.
SPUIs in general, or having them below a freeway?
Either way, I have no idea what you're talking about. SPUIs are not usually disasters, no matter how you look at them. I'm not a fan because the intersections are gigantic, so there's tons of redundant space. But safety-wise, there doesn't seem to be any outstanding issues with them.
As long as you don't stick something on the pavement in the middle of the SPUI, because it gets hidden by shadows all the time and is likely to get run down.
This works. (https://goo.gl/maps/WEMmxf4N8FGwhYp2A)
This keeps getting knocked down. (https://goo.gl/maps/B6AWMdkdGCzPHsweA)
Quote from: US 89 on May 14, 2021, 09:28:23 AM
I would love to know the story behind the interchange at Paseo del Norte (NM 423) and 2nd St (https://goo.gl/maps/BAL713YBc7cG6yFF7) in Albuquerque. It's basically a SPUI, but with left exits and right entrances.
I have never seen this design anywhere else. Seems like those left exits would make it more dangerous while providing no real benefit otherwise.
So historic aerials shows in 1991 this was an at-grade intersection. Also...pan to the east and check out the railroad tracks still in place! https://goo.gl/maps/coZbQQJAEQa7Jw6U7 Even farther east, the intersection of Jefferson St was still at-grade in 2011. So that "freeway" is an interesting one!
My guess is that the big reason is that they wanted to keep the bridge spans (distance between support piers) as short as possible (to have a "thinner" bridge and less earthwork). See how there are supports between the main roadway and the left turns onto the freeway? That means the bridge doesn't need to be so tall / expensive. A lot of "SPUI under" have REALLY long spans since the lanes from the left turns get in the way. I also bet the version we see today had smaller construction impacts than raising the freeway exactly where the intersection is. They were able to leave the intersection and build the new portions of freeway outside without disrupting traffic.
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 12:33:40 PM
Quote from: US 89 on May 14, 2021, 09:28:23 AM
I would love to know the story behind the interchange at Paseo del Norte (NM 423) and 2nd St (https://goo.gl/maps/BAL713YBc7cG6yFF7) in Albuquerque. It’s basically a SPUI, but with left exits and right entrances.
I have never seen this design anywhere else. Seems like those left exits would make it more dangerous while providing no real benefit otherwise.
Interesting case -- was this interchange originally constructed like this, or did it have a different design previously?
I can't say I've ever seen a SPUI underneath the freeway; they're almost always on an overpass for obvious visibility reasons. So if there was some reason why Paseo Del Norte Blvd needed to have the overpass (or if that's how it was designed previously), the wide median with the SPUI in the middle makes at least some degree of sense.
Arizona has several SPUIs under freeways. Off the top of my head I can think of Loop 202 / Rural Rd, Loop 101 / Frank Lloyd Wright Blvd, Loop 101 / Cave Creek Rd, Loop 101 / Bell Road (Glendale), AZ 143 / University Drive, AZ 143 / Washington Street, Loop 202 / 24th Street, Loop 202 / 32nd Street, AZ 51 / McDowell Rd, AZ 51 / Thomas Rd, AZ 51 / Indian School Rd.
Also I-94 / Telegraph Rd in Michigan (with the football shaped bridge) is an SPUI underneath a freeway.
The Southern Illinois SPUI, IL 13 @ I-57 in Marion, is a Freeway Over
Quote from: kphoger on May 14, 2021, 05:19:27 PM
As long as you don't stick something on the pavement in the middle of the SPUI, because it gets hidden by shadows all the time and is likely to get run down.
This works. (https://goo.gl/maps/WEMmxf4N8FGwhYp2A)
This keeps getting knocked down. (https://goo.gl/maps/B6AWMdkdGCzPHsweA)
Of course, IDOT D9 has the I-57 shield on an island in the middle of the intersection under Freeway/in the shadows
https://goo.gl/maps/Zoh7aFUtoSRou5Pw7
Quote from: jakeroot on May 14, 2021, 05:10:59 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 02:59:58 PM
It seems like a disaster waiting to happen for first-time users.
SPUIs in general, or having them below a freeway?
Having them below a freeway. It seems like it's a lot more common that I thought, which is partly because most of the examples I've seen on the forum and elsewhere have been overpasses, and partly because, again, SPUI's are literally non-existent in NY/NJ/PA, so I'm kind of flying blind here.
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 09:54:17 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 14, 2021, 05:10:59 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 02:59:58 PM
It seems like a disaster waiting to happen for first-time users.
SPUIs in general, or having them below a freeway?
Having them below a freeway. It seems like it's a lot more common that I thought, which is partly because most of the examples I've seen on the forum and elsewhere have been overpasses, and partly because, again, SPUI's are literally non-existent in NY/NJ/PA, so I'm kind of flying blind here.
Here's one NY example of an under SPUI: I-278 and Northern Blvd. Also includes the "signs island" in the middle.
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 09:54:17 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 14, 2021, 05:10:59 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 02:59:58 PM
It seems like a disaster waiting to happen for first-time users.
SPUIs in general, or having them below a freeway?
Having them below a freeway. It seems like it's a lot more common that I thought, which is partly because most of the examples I've seen on the forum and elsewhere have been overpasses, and partly because, again, SPUI's are literally non-existent in NY/NJ/PA, so I'm kind of flying blind here.
I commute on a SPUI every day.*
*Well, every day I have a commute, due to the pandemic, but you get the idea.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 14, 2021, 05:10:59 PM
Either way, I have no idea what you're talking about. SPUIs are not usually disasters, no matter how you look at them. I'm not a fan because the intersections are gigantic, so there's tons of redundant space. But safety-wise, there doesn't seem to be any outstanding issues with them.
For most SPUIs, no. But for those located in cities with high bicycle/pedestrian traffic, there's at least one documented location (MN 55/Lake St in Minneapolis, MN) with a high level of safety issues for non-motorized modes transiting the interchange.
Quote from: vdeane on May 14, 2021, 10:50:49 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 09:54:17 PM
... partly because, again, SPUI's are literally non-existent in NY/NJ/PA, so I'm kind of flying blind here.
I commute on a SPUI every day.*
That's one of how many in the entire state... two? three?
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 02:59:58 PM
SPUI's are non-existent in this area, which is probably why I'm not used to seeing them under the freeway. It seems like a disaster waiting to happen for first-time users.
Then the accident rate would be thru the roof every time a new driver encounters one.
A SPUI is nothing more than a common left turn. At a typical intersection, opposing directions make simultaneous left turns all day long.
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 11:11:20 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 14, 2021, 10:50:49 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 09:54:17 PM
... partly because, again, SPUI's are literally non-existent in NY/NJ/PA, so I'm kind of flying blind here.
I commute on a SPUI every day.*
That's one of how many in the entire state... two? three?
In addition to what I noted for NY above, at least two.
I think that both over-freeway and under-freeway SPUIs have trade-offs: a wider bridge with short span lengths, and narrower bridge with longer spans, respectively. Of corse, there are exceptions, such as those shown above, but I can also contribute:
I-29 @ E Front St, Kansas City, MO (https://goo.gl/maps/rs3RKW77yjjpzrSS9)
MD-5 @ Allentown Rd, Camp Springs, MD (https://goo.gl/maps/jrhbDkFaQfytSqFE8) (does this even count as a SPUI?)
Of corse, SPUIs don't need to be over the freeway. Offset SPUIs are a thing, like I-225 @ E Alameda Ave, Denver, CO (https://goo.gl/maps/VxLfL94jvR89wE8g6).
Or, there is the (often shit on) inverted SPUI, as seen on I-244, Tulsa, OK (https://goo.gl/maps/Yf7PyMbLuyBNjkB19).
But I think my favorite SPUI I've seen isn't even real! It was built in Minecraft (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=14747.msg2282095#msg2282095)! It is skewed enough that having straddle bents is feasible. I believe that there may need to be a small adjustment to the center piers so that small low-speed attenuators (similar to this (https://goo.gl/maps/kBhw4pEPYjP8vY4R6)) could be used, but I think it looks like something that actually might be built.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 14, 2021, 11:18:45 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 02:59:58 PM
SPUI's are non-existent in this area, which is probably why I'm not used to seeing them under the freeway. It seems like a disaster waiting to happen for first-time users.
Then the accident rate would be thru the roof every time a new driver encounters one.
A SPUI is nothing more than a common left turn. At a typical intersection, opposing directions make simultaneous left turns all day long.
The left turns are much wider than typical left turns, and with that movement also happening under an overpass, I guarantee there would be plenty of confused drivers until they got used to it. Of course, this is mostly conjecture for us in the Northeast because there are so few examples.
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 11:38:22 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 14, 2021, 11:18:45 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 02:59:58 PM
SPUI's are non-existent in this area, which is probably why I'm not used to seeing them under the freeway. It seems like a disaster waiting to happen for first-time users.
Then the accident rate would be thru the roof every time a new driver encounters one.
A SPUI is nothing more than a common left turn. At a typical intersection, opposing directions make simultaneous left turns all day long.
The left turns are much wider than typical left turns, and with that movement also happening under an overpass, I guarantee there would be plenty of confused drivers until they got used to it. Of course, this is mostly conjecture for us in the Northeast because there are so few examples.
I think in terms of "disasters wating to happen" , New England has more than a few. And none are SPUIs.COUGH rotary intersections COUGH
Quote from: MCRoads on May 14, 2021, 11:52:32 PM
COUGH rotary intersections COUGH
I thought roundabouts are generally a good thing.
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 14, 2021, 11:54:44 PM
Quote from: MCRoads on May 14, 2021, 11:52:32 PM
COUGH rotary intersections COUGH
I thought roundabouts are generally a good thing.
There is a difference between a good roundabout and a terrible rotary. Traffic usually has to change lanes in the circle to make left turns, and may have to yield to traffic entering the circle, or pedestrians crossing the circulating roadway. DC and Philly have the most I can think of off the top of my head.
Quote from: MCRoads on May 14, 2021, 11:35:52 PM
MD-5 @ Allentown Rd, Camp Springs, MD (https://goo.gl/maps/jrhbDkFaQfytSqFE8) (does this even count as a SPUI?)
Why wouldn't it?
(as a former regular user of that interchange, I don't see why it wouldn't count)
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 14, 2021, 11:54:44 PM
Quote from: MCRoads on May 14, 2021, 11:52:32 PM
COUGH rotary intersections COUGH
I thought roundabouts are generally a good thing.
Besides what MCRoads posted, there are technical differences between the two. Roundabouts have tighter radii and ALWAYS require entering traffic to yield to traffic already in the circle.
Rotaries have more in common with the old traffic circles, including the ones in DC and Philly that MCRoads mentioned. One thing he may not know about though, is that in Massachusetts (where the term "rotary" came from), state law requires entering traffic to yield at rotaries, just like it does for roundabouts. It's New Jersey in particular where you'll see the phenomenon of entering traffic having the right-of-way (Flemington Circle on US 202 coming to mind).
Quote from: froggie on May 15, 2021, 12:43:47 AM
Quote from: MCRoads on May 14, 2021, 11:35:52 PM
MD-5 @ Allentown Rd, Camp Springs, MD (https://goo.gl/maps/jrhbDkFaQfytSqFE8) (does this even count as a SPUI?)
Why wouldn't it?
(as a former regular user of that interchange, I don't see why it wouldn't count)
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 14, 2021, 11:54:44 PM
Quote from: MCRoads on May 14, 2021, 11:52:32 PM
COUGH rotary intersections COUGH
I thought roundabouts are generally a good thing.
Besides what MCRoads posted, there are technical differences between the two. Roundabouts have tighter radii and ALWAYS require entering traffic to yield to traffic already in the circle.
Rotaries have more in common with the old traffic circles, including the ones in DC and Philly that MCRoads mentioned. One thing he may not know about though, is that in Massachusetts (where the term "rotary" came from), state law requires entering traffic to yield at rotaries, just like it does for roundabouts. It's New Jersey in particular where you'll see the phenomenon of entering traffic having the right-of-way (Flemington Circle on US 202 coming to mind).
FYI, even MA is not immune to the "New Jersey phenomenon" , the Sullivan Square rotary is an example of users on the circulating roadway having to stop (via a signal on the SW quadrant), as well as the Neponset Circle (multiple signals/pedestrian crossings), and Harvord Square (the NE quadrant looks like it was probably a delightful mess to drive before the new-ish looking canalization islands were added, lol).
Massachusetts has a few where entering traffic from certain directions has priority: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4551208,-71.0900419,18.75z
Quote from: 1 on May 15, 2021, 08:20:26 AM
Massachusetts has a few where entering traffic from certain directions has priority: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4551208,-71.0900419,18.75z (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4551208,-71.0900419,18.75z)
Seems normal to me, just a compacted Michigan Left.
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 14, 2021, 11:21:38 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 11:11:20 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 14, 2021, 10:50:49 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 09:54:17 PM
... partly because, again, SPUI's are literally non-existent in NY/NJ/PA, so I'm kind of flying blind here.
I commute on a SPUI every day.*
That's one of how many in the entire state... two? three?
In addition to what I noted for NY above, at least two.
We have at least five. I-87/NY 7/NY 2, I-278/NY 25A, Nicolls Road/NY 25, I-781/US 11, and NY 5/8/12/Court Street (3/4 interchange) are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Of those listed, all except I-87 exit 6 have the freeway on top.
Quote from: 1 on May 15, 2021, 08:20:26 AM
Massachusetts has a few where entering traffic from certain directions has priority: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4551208,-71.0900419,18.75z
That's not, by either definition or engineering, a rotary. That's a pair of U-turn ramps on either side of a RIRO.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51178533634_9e64d3095a_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kYtn1W)
Quote from: jakeroot on May 14, 2021, 11:49:24 AM
They have gone to the extreme in this map and simply eliminated all movements between the freeways and West Valley Hwy, apart from a singular westbound off-ramp.
There's also an east on-ramp, with access to north 167.
For Ohio's SPUIs, like what has been noted for NY above, it seems like somewhat of a "foreign" concept here. There's almost 4x more in my former hometown of St Louis than all of Ohio, and none of them are under the freeway. A bit disappointing as it's my favorite freeway to surface interchange type. The state uses a lot of hybrid diamond interchanges with a loop ramp or two though.
Here's all the SPUIs in Ohio I can think of:
- I-75 and OH 63 (over)
- I-475 and US 20 (over)
- I-270 and Sawmill (over)
- OH 161 and Sunbury (over)
As for the St Louis examples...
- I-55 and US 50/61/67 (over)
- I-64 and US 61/67 (under)
- I-64 and Hampton (over)
- I-64 and Kingshighway (over)
- I-70 and TR Hughes (over)
- I-70 and MO 94 (over)
- I-70 and Florissant (under)
- I-170 and MO 340 (under)
- I-170 and MO 180 (under)
- I-270 and MO 340 (over)
- MO 141 and Big Bend (over)
- MO 141 and MO 100 (under)
- MO 141 and Ladue (over)
- MO 141 and MO 340 (under)
- MO 364 and MO K (under)
I like how Missouri does some of the signaling in their under interchanges, with horizontal signals under the overpass, instead of a vertical signal mounted above an "island" in the middle of the interchange I see sometimes.
Quote from: vdeane on May 15, 2021, 09:44:48 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 14, 2021, 11:21:38 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 11:11:20 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 14, 2021, 10:50:49 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 14, 2021, 09:54:17 PM
... partly because, again, SPUI's are literally non-existent in NY/NJ/PA, so I'm kind of flying blind here.
I commute on a SPUI every day.*
That's one of how many in the entire state... two? three?
In addition to what I noted for NY above, at least two.
We have at least five. I-87/NY 7/NY 2, I-278/NY 25A, Nicolls Road/NY 25, I-781/US 11, and NY 5/8/12/Court Street (3/4 interchange) are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Of those listed, all except I-87 exit 6 have the freeway on top.
However, none west of I-81 in either NY
or PA that I'm aware of.. unless there are any in the Pittsburgh area that I missed.
^ BYPASS US 19/PA 51 at the south end of the Liberty Tunnel in Pittsburgh functions as a SPUI. It's not a traditional SPUI, but functions as one. I believe they went with this design (including the loop ramp) because the close proximity to the Liberty Tunnel prevented left turn lanes on the southbound approach.
Speaking of interchanges that aren't SPUIs, but have parts functioning like one, here's I-55 and MO 141 (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.4421039,-90.3804401,243m/data=!3m1!1e3). There's 3 signal sets: the 2 side ones for the left turns on the freeway, and the middle one is for left turns off the freeway, and both directions of left turns can go at the same time. Even the signal head that was chosen for the left turn (diagonal left) is what MoDOT normally uses on SPUIs and DDIs.
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 16, 2021, 10:46:57 AM
For Ohio's SPUIs, like what has been noted for NY above, it seems like somewhat of a "foreign" concept here. There's almost 4x more in my former hometown of St Louis than all of Ohio, and none of them are under the freeway. A bit disappointing as it's my favorite freeway to surface interchange type. The state uses a lot of hybrid diamond interchanges with a loop ramp or two though.
Here's all the SPUIs in Ohio I can think of:
- I-75 and OH 63 (over)
- I-475 and US 20 (over)
- I-270 and Sawmill (over)
- OH 161 and Sunbury (over)
There's also I-71 and OH-665 in Grove City (over): https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8403284,-83.0907414,318m/data=!3m1!1e3.
Quote from: Steve.S on May 19, 2021, 09:10:59 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 16, 2021, 10:46:57 AM
For Ohio's SPUIs, like what has been noted for NY above, it seems like somewhat of a "foreign" concept here. There's almost 4x more in my former hometown of St Louis than all of Ohio, and none of them are under the freeway. A bit disappointing as it's my favorite freeway to surface interchange type. The state uses a lot of hybrid diamond interchanges with a loop ramp or two though.
Here's all the SPUIs in Ohio I can think of:
- I-75 and OH 63 (over)
- I-475 and US 20 (over)
- I-270 and Sawmill (over)
- OH 161 and Sunbury (over)
There's also I-71 and OH-665 in Grove City (over): https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8403284,-83.0907414,318m/data=!3m1!1e3.
Thought I was missing one either in Cincy or Columbus. Thx.
Here's one that was recently rebuilt: I-71's southern interchange with I-270 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.8974878,-83.0337258,3a,74.6y,219.77h,88.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snfZtnBmzxG3k1kWIR8d4Fw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). I'm pretty concerned about the 2 lanes each way for I-71 through traffic on both sides, with seemingly no easy way to widen this in the future. I think OhioDOT might have shot themselves in the foot by not widen it to 3 lanes when they had the chance to when reconstructing the whole thing, and it might eventually be a bigger issue when I-71 between Cincinnati and Columbus is fully 6-laned.
They probably expect the 2 thru lanes to be sufficient especially if Cincinnati traffic simply uses I-270 to bypass Columbus.
Quote from: ran4sh on January 21, 2022, 04:53:55 PM
They probably expect the 2 thru lanes to be sufficient especially if Cincinnati traffic simply uses I-270 to bypass Columbus.
Using I-270 to bypass Columbus isn't as simple as you think. Adds an extra 8 miles compared to staying on I-71, and goes through the area (in my experience) with the worst traffic in the city; the segment between US 33/161 and I-71 on the north loop of I-270.