Usually I write one or two paying my taxes to the State of California and the IRS annually. The only reason I do this is because I don't really know if I will have an overall gain for the until late in the year with my investments. Given that I withdraw what I owe from my investments to pay any non-work relate income I don't want to do direct deposit, hence why I still write checks. Other than this specific instance I've found check writing to essentially be completely antiquated. Does anyone have some weird artifact use for checks or has it passed on to being something completely irrelevant?
I've set most of my regular expenses up for automatic debit (mortgage, credit card, cell phone, water, home/auto insurance). I still write checks for medical bills, donations, some fundraiser purchases, and services (furnace repair, the guy who picks up my leaves every autumn, etc.). I don't think it's a "weird artifact use"; I write checks when I think it's the best or easiest payment method. And, yes, I still balance my checkbook by hand every month.
My quarterly sewer bill is separate from the property taxes, and that agency doesn't accept online payments. So 4 paper checks go in the snail mail per year for that. Occasionally there's a donation to some small charity, such as the Friends of the local Library. But those are the only paper checks I've written in the last couple years.
You'd be surprised how many companies still pay their bills by check. That's one of the main reasons USPS manages to stay afloat.
As for personal expenses, though, I don't think it's that common anymore. We're certainly past the era of paying for groceries and such by check.
All of my monthly bills are paid by check. I do not have anything set up to pay as an automatic draft, and nothing is connected to my checking account...and I'mgonna keep it that way! I don't trust technology. There is no such thing as "hacker-proof", so I will never trust having anything technologically connected to my account. I will always write checks & help keep the post office afloat.
I, too, balance my checkbook by hand once or twice a week.
I still write out paper checks on occasion, especially for payments to the IRS (I always owe them money, want to hang on to it as long as possible) and some repair bills I can't pay with a credit card. I've long used automatic payments from my bank account or a credit card, and have lately made online credit card payments for some other things. While I agree with cjk374's concern, having as much of my finances as possible on autopilot comes in handy during long road trips, especially the ones where I drop completely out of sight (as in zero Internet access) for days at a time.
I haven't balanced my checkbook in ages. But I do check my monthly bank statements for any surprises, make sure direct deposits went through, and make sure I have an adequate cushion to cover upcoming automatic payments.
I used to, because my water bill required it.
Sold the house. Don't anticipate needing to write another check for years.
My mother writes paper checks regularly. She doesn't want to use the bank's bill payment service and she says her system of writing checks works for her. Doesn't make sense to me, but if it works for her....
I use checks to move money around between banks. It's ultimately faster to write myself a check and then use mobile deposit at the other bank than it is to use PayPal or some other means of electronic transfer. My wife and I both balance the checkbooks by hand, although having most bills paid electronically, and not using debit cards, simplifies that. We don't give any creditors access to our accounts–we use the banks' bill payment services where we have to authorize the amount. The electronic bill payment is much better than mailing a paper check because it's timely. There's no reward for paying bills early, so I program payments for the day before the due date. Can't do that when you mail paper checks.
I occasionally see old ladies writing checks at the grocery store. Everyone hates getting stuck behind them, to the point where if I see an old lady waiting on line, I get on line for a different checkout.
On the whole, I find it baffling and disturbing that paper checks still have both your routing number and account number on them. It makes it too easy to steal info. That happened to my wife in 2017: She wrote a large-amount personal check as a down payment on a car and two business days later someone cleaned out her bank account. She got the money back, thankfully, but setting up a new account, getting new checks, etc., was a big hassle. We're convinced it had to be someone at the car dealership who had access to the check she wrote, but we don't know for sure because we were not informed about how any law enforcement investigation, if any, turned out.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
I occasionally see old ladies writing checks at the grocery store. Everyone hates getting stuck behind them, to the point where if I see an old lady waiting on line, I get on line for a different checkout.
I worked at a grocery store. There were a lot of old ladies, and very few of them (very few of anyone) wrote checks.
Quote from: 1 on March 17, 2021, 08:24:01 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
I occasionally see old ladies writing checks at the grocery store. Everyone hates getting stuck behind them, to the point where if I see an old lady waiting on line, I get on line for a different checkout.
I worked at a grocery store. There were a lot of old ladies, and very few of them (very few of anyone) wrote checks.
That was a very real thing until about maybe circa 2015? I had a nasty backup at Albertsons once when an elderly customer insisted on paying for an $8 dollar steak with a check.
I was still paying all my bills with check as of October of last year. That's how my mom always did it, so that's how I learned it from her, and I never bothered to set up electronic forms of payment. However, last November, I had USPS lose an entire outgoing mailbox worth of mail: a package I sent to a friend and my electric bill payment, which caused the latter to go past due, making me subject to a late fee. Not caring to repeat the experience, I switched over all of the bills to paperless billing.
I still kind of hate it. It's way easier for a "Your bill is due" email to get lost in my inbox than it is for me to pull a paper bill out of the mailbox and set it aside. But until Louis DeJoy gets his head out of his ass, I just have to deal with it. Maybe I can set up my Gmail inbox rules to tag incoming bill emails with a special tag.
I still pay my mortgage with a check, because the documents sent out by the bank don't have any clear indication of whether paperless billing is a service they offer, and I haven't felt like hunting around on their site to see.
I don't use automatic payments, instead originating them manually each month, because I don't have enough money for that. When I pay my bills is dependent on when I get paid, which historically has always been "every 2 weeks" rather than on set dates every month, so there is no guarantee that any given day of the month won't be right
before there's money in the account.
Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 07:32:42 PM
You'd be surprised how many companies still pay their bills by check. That's one of the main reasons USPS manages to stay afloat.
As for personal expenses, though, I don't think it's that common anymore. We're certainly past the era of paying for groceries and such by check.
That's mostly because of credit card fees. While consumer-oriented businesses are tolerant of them (because personal consumers will go elsewhere if they are not able to pay by credit card), business-to-business transactions tend to be a lot larger (meaning a higher fee, because they're percentage-based, as well as likelihood of exceeding transaction maximums on the card) and the customers are less likely to care about the form of payment required (large businesses have an entire department
just for paying bills, and that department isn't the one who decides who the company does business with). Thus it's a lot easier to specify that payments are paid by check or ACH and not give Visa a cut of the profits.
Quote from: cjk374 on March 17, 2021, 07:50:02 PM
All of my monthly bills are paid by check. I do not have anything set up to pay as an automatic draft, and nothing is connected to my checking account...and I'mgonna keep it that way! I don't trust technology. There is no such thing as "hacker-proof", so I will never trust having anything technologically connected to my account.
The MICR line at the bottom of your check contains your full bank account number and routing number in cleartext. All that's needed to steal money out of your account is for someone to steal a single check (perhaps by grabbing it out of the mailbox before it's picked up, or for someone at the place you're paying to make a photocopy).
When I worked at the casino we had a lot of people try to cash fraudulent checks by copying the MICR line off of somebody else's check, then printing up new checks with the stolen MICR line but the fraudster's name and address on them. Would have been entirely undetectable on our end (name and address matches with the presented ID, after all) if they had not always printed them off on a home printer using the same few designs of check stock. If they'd ordered their fake checks through Walmart or Harland Clarke we would have been none the wiser.
Quote from: 1 on March 17, 2021, 08:24:01 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
I occasionally see old ladies writing checks at the grocery store. Everyone hates getting stuck behind them, to the point where if I see an old lady waiting on line, I get on line for a different checkout.
I worked at a grocery store. There were a lot of old ladies, and very few of them (very few of anyone) wrote checks.
Am I supposed to conclude that somehow invalidates my comment?
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
I occasionally see old ladies writing checks at the grocery store. Everyone hates getting stuck behind them, to the point where if I see an old lady waiting on line, I get on line for a different checkout.
I used to have to do that when I was in college, because I was 17 and my bank wouldn't issue a debit card to anyone under 18, though they'd happily issue checks. I would try to make it more tolerable to the people behind me by writing out the pay-to-the-order-of and signing the check before getting in line (or while in line), meaning I'd only have to write out the amount at the checkout.
I think a lot of places don't even accept checks anymore. They're slow, and if you don't have an established account with the customer they can give you a bad check and disappear. A few years after the above story, the Burger King I worked at officially stopped accepting checks. It was just as well, we usually only got one once every few months, invariably always through drive-thru where it would hold up the line the most!
If you're paying in person, and it's not in the thousands, why not use cash?
Quote from: 1 on March 17, 2021, 08:47:22 PM
If you're paying in person, and it's not in the thousands, why not use cash?
In my case, check was the only option, since I was going to college in a state that my credit union had no branches in. The nearest branch was at least 80 miles away.
I would occasionally write checks out to cash at the college bursar's office, but I think they limited you to $50, so the cash didn't last long.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
On the whole, I find it baffling and disturbing that paper checks still have both your routing number and account number on them. It makes it too easy to steal info. That happened to my wife in 2017: She wrote a large-amount personal check as a down payment on a car and two business days later someone cleaned out her bank account. She got the money back, thankfully, but setting up a new account, getting new checks, etc., was a big hassle. We're convinced it had to be someone at the car dealership who had access to the check she wrote, but we don't know for sure because we were not informed about how any law enforcement investigation, if any, turned out.
What else would they have on them? The banks have to be able to move money from one account to another somehow. Whatever replaced them would have the exact same issue, so it would be a massive change for no benefit.
Quote from: vdeane on March 17, 2021, 09:02:00 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
On the whole, I find it baffling and disturbing that paper checks still have both your routing number and account number on them. It makes it too easy to steal info. That happened to my wife in 2017: She wrote a large-amount personal check as a down payment on a car and two business days later someone cleaned out her bank account. She got the money back, thankfully, but setting up a new account, getting new checks, etc., was a big hassle. We're convinced it had to be someone at the car dealership who had access to the check she wrote, but we don't know for sure because we were not informed about how any law enforcement investigation, if any, turned out.
What else would they have on them? The banks have to be able to move money from one account to another somehow. Whatever replaced them would have the exact same issue, so it would be a massive change for no benefit.
I'm not sure what the solution is, but there has to be a better way. Obviously things like single-use numbers some credit card issuers have used over the years can't work with checks, and as you note having a dummy number (like Apple Pay or E-ZPass or similar) might open the door to a similar issue. But there has to be some way to avoid having your account info so readily available. I recall when I was in college some of the guys in my dorm had their Social Security numbers printed on their checks along with their names and addresses because it made it easier so the cashier wouldn't have to copy it from their driver's licenses. I always thought that was dumb: Why provide even more information to someone who might get ahold of your checks?
Quote from: 1 on March 17, 2021, 08:47:22 PM
If you're paying in person, and it's not in the thousands, why not use cash?
My primary bank isn't local, fee-free ATMs are not conveniently located, and I don't want to go through the hassle of changing banks to improve either situation.
I still pay many bills by check, but I mostly have the bank print and mail the checks, rather than doing it by hand, for those vendors that don't accept electronic transfers. All checks I've written "the old fashioned way" in the past year have been to transfer funds from one bank to another, as mobile check deposit seems less a headache than setting up a wire transfer.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:40:41 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 17, 2021, 08:24:01 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
I occasionally see old ladies writing checks at the grocery store. Everyone hates getting stuck behind them, to the point where if I see an old lady waiting on line, I get on line for a different checkout.
I worked at a grocery store. There were a lot of old ladies, and very few of them (very few of anyone) wrote checks.
Am I supposed to conclude that somehow invalidates my comment?
"Invalidates" is strong, but it's safe to say that he spent considerably more time there and watched and/or handled a lot more transactions than the average person that goes shopping once or twice a week.
It could also be that old ladies take a long time for reasons that have nothing to do with how they're paying.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2021, 08:38:02 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 07:32:42 PM
You'd be surprised how many companies still pay their bills by check. That's one of the main reasons USPS manages to stay afloat.
...
That's mostly because of credit card fees. While consumer-oriented businesses are tolerant of them (because personal consumers will go elsewhere if they are not able to pay by credit card), business-to-business transactions tend to be a lot larger (meaning a higher fee, because they're percentage-based, as well as likelihood of exceeding transaction maximums on the card) and the customers are less likely to care about the form of payment required (large businesses have an entire department just for paying bills, and that department isn't the one who decides who the company does business with). Thus it's a lot easier to specify that payments are paid by check or ACH and not give Visa a cut of the profits.
Yes, I totally understand why it is. It's mostly just surprising that companies still mail checks when ACH is free, there's no delay (although I suppose a built-in delay might be handy if cash is tight), and it's just as easy.
With that said, I can understand why someone who's been doing it the old way for 50 years might not see anything wrong with it or want to change, but what I really can't understand is companies that don't even
accept payment by ACH and
require checks. There's no sense in forcing everyone to do things the old way, and refusal to change will eventually end up costing you, even if it isn't now. I feel similarly about cash-only businesses.
Credit cards are another whole topic. They're advantageous for the buyer for a host of reasons, but from the sellers perspective, I can see both sides. You can usually tell quite a bit about a company (or sometimes an entire industry) from how they tend to handle credit cards.
Quote from: vdeane on March 17, 2021, 09:02:00 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
On the whole, I find it baffling and disturbing that paper checks still have both your routing number and account number on them. It makes it too easy to steal info. That happened to my wife in 2017: She wrote a large-amount personal check as a down payment on a car and two business days later someone cleaned out her bank account. She got the money back, thankfully, but setting up a new account, getting new checks, etc., was a big hassle. We're convinced it had to be someone at the car dealership who had access to the check she wrote, but we don't know for sure because we were not informed about how any law enforcement investigation, if any, turned out.
What else would they have on them? The banks have to be able to move money from one account to another somehow. Whatever replaced them would have the exact same issue, so it would be a massive change for no benefit.
Routing numbers should be able to move away from being on checks - it wouldn't be that hard for banks/credit unions, big and small, to have a database of what banks use what routing numbers. But at the same time, any serious identity/theft thiefs would have the routing number database info, anyway
It might disuade some "small time" check fraud, tho
Getting away from the account number? That one is harder...the receiving bank has to be able to ask for an account to take the funds from
Of course, if you really are worried about your routing and account numbers being stolen, go get a money order or a cashier's check
I don't write many paper checks personally - my rent and my car payment are paid with checks, but I have my bank send the checks to the financing credit union (for the car loan) and my LL. If I owe the IRS or the ILDOR taxes, I cut a paper check fo that, also.
Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 10:02:27 PM
With that said, I can understand why someone who's been doing it the old way for 50 years might not see anything wrong with it or want to change, but what I really can't understand is companies that don't even accept payment by ACH and require checks. There's no sense in forcing everyone to do things the old way, and refusal to change will eventually end up costing you, even if it isn't now. I feel similarly about cash-only businesses.
Commercial bank accounts are subject to many fees that personal accounts aren't. I have a commercial account at a state-chartered bank that charges me a monthly fee for access to the ACH part of the online banking system. So I don't enable ACH, because I think I have three regular transactions a year that I don't do through a credit card, meaning it would just be wasted money to enable the ACH just to pay those three transactions. Therefore, any vendor I do a one-off large transaction with has to be paid by paper check. And, of course, if a wholesale customer wants to pay by ACH–well, again, I don't have it enabled, so send me a paper check I can deposit for free, please.
Hell, I have to pay $3 per month per account just to
have online banking ("account analysis service charge"). Thus, I didn't enable online access to the savings account, so any time I have to take money out of it or put money into it, I have to go into the branch.
Banks figure that businesses make enough money that they won't notice or care about the banking fees coming out. And of course all of those fees can be written off anyway, so it's whatever. If you do that to personal checking or savings accounts, the customers will change banks. But successful businesses usually have so many transactions going in and out that changing banks would be disruptive. (Sucks to not be able to accept $500 worth of customer payments because you switched banks over a $5 fee.)
I use, on average, 0 checks per month. When I write a check, it's for those rare occasions when it's a lot of money and the person/company doesn't take credit cards. My checks have the old bank name on them, which hasn't existed for over 10 years. But the new bank recognizes the old ABA/Routing number, so the checks are still valid.
I write 3 or 4 checks a month. Some of my bills still charge extra to pay online. Some of them are places I don't trust with my credit card number. Some of them want to stop sending me paper bills, and I'm more likely to remember to actually pay the bill if I have the piece of paper to remind me.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2021, 10:40:55 PM
Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 10:02:27 PM
With that said, I can understand why someone who's been doing it the old way for 50 years might not see anything wrong with it or want to change, but what I really can't understand is companies that don't even accept payment by ACH and require checks. There's no sense in forcing everyone to do things the old way, and refusal to change will eventually end up costing you, even if it isn't now. I feel similarly about cash-only businesses.
Commercial bank accounts are subject to many fees that personal accounts aren't. I have a commercial account at a state-chartered bank that charges me a monthly fee for access to the ACH part of the online banking system. So I don't enable ACH, because I think I have three regular transactions a year that I don't do through a credit card, meaning it would just be wasted money to enable the ACH just to pay those three transactions. Therefore, any vendor I do a one-off large transaction with has to be paid by paper check.
Yes, I get that. And of course, most companies would be doing way more than three transactions per year - they might be doing ten times that per day. Even if there is a fee (I believe it depends on the bank), it would certainly be worth it for any medium-sized or larger company. Postage isn't free, either, and once you have ACH, you have it - your costs don't change based on how much you transfer, to how many recipients, or with what frequency.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2021, 10:40:55 PM
And, of course, if a wholesale customer wants to pay by ACH–well, again, I don't have it enabled, so send me a paper check I can deposit for free, please.
That's fine for a small company, but increasingly, a lot of customers expect to be able to pay by ACH, so it's certainly an option you'd want to offer them, and at some point (either as it becomes the norm, or you get more requests for it, or both) it's likely to become more of a necessity than a possibility.
Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 11:31:54 PM
Yes, I get that. And of course, most companies would be doing way more than three transactions per year - they might be doing ten times that per day. Even if there is a fee (I believe it depends on the bank), it would certainly be worth it for any medium-sized or larger company.
Far from certain–it really depends on the business and the industry the business is in. There are some businesses that require you to do business by fax machine, even now, because everyone in the industry just does stuff by fax so it doesn't seem as weird and out-of-date to them as it does everyone else.
QuotePostage isn't free, either, and once you have ACH, you have it - your costs don't change based on how much you transfer, to how many recipients, or with what frequency.
Depends on the bank. Some may charge per transaction. Mine may even, actually; the only reason I know they charge for access to the ACH portal is because I accidentally activated it once. I noticed the ACH fee, called them up and asked about it, and they re-disabled the portal for me and waived the fee.
As for the postage, the nice thing about that is that it's the customer paying it, not the seller. But as for the postage...
Quote
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 17, 2021, 10:40:55 PM
And, of course, if a wholesale customer wants to pay by ACH–well, again, I don't have it enabled, so send me a paper check I can deposit for free, please.
That's fine for a small company, but increasingly, a lot of customers expect to be able to pay by ACH, so it's certainly an option you'd want to offer them, and at some point (either as it becomes the norm, or you get more requests for it, or both) it's likely to become more of a necessity than a possibility.
I think you're overvaluing how much a business-to-business customer really cares about the method of payment. Sure, if I sell someone $23 worth of playing cards, if I don't take a convenient method of payment like a credit card, they are going to turn to another company that does. If I sell a business $23,000 worth of playing cards, they are making enough of a commitment to my product that they are really not going to kill the whole sale because I want to be paid by check instead of ACH. ("Damn, Mark, I was just about to sign this five-figure purchase agreement, but then I realized that 55¢ stamp would put us in the red for the year!") Especially because the guy that makes the decision to buy usually isn't the same guy who is going to be printing and mailing the check. In a large enough company Accounts Payable and the purchasing executive may not even have their offices on the same floor of the building.
Don't forget that a lot of these large transactions are the result of doing the legwork of going around and getting custom quotes from multiple companies. That alone can take a month. Then in a large company, there are meetings with various people in the company that have different concerns (price, merits of the product, does it do what the company needs to do, is it good value for the money, etc). Making a decision to turn a particular quote into a purchase agreement is a big commitment. Throwing away all of the hours of legwork that went into reaching a deal just because of a stamp would be a pretty big waste of manpower.
I don't do business-to-business sales often, but I have never had anyone ask to pay by ACH. The largest sale I ever did, I asked for payment by check, they offered PayPal instead, I kind of complained because I didn't incorporate PayPal fees into the quote they agreed to, so they just sent extra to cover the fees.
I write a rent check each month and that's generally it. I have had medical bills where I can't locate where their web address is and I'll send a check then, and if I buy something from a relative, it's by check, but my rent check is my only regular check.
I will mention that as of some time in 2020, Casey's no longer accepts checks and I saw an old lady get pissed off at a clerk for this. I felt sorry for the clerk about this.
I average about 5 checks a year. One is my membership dues in the letter carriers union. Even though I'm a non-postal Federal employee, they have a really good health plan that I participate in. The membership dues can't be paid online and must be mailed with a check. Other than that, our handyman that does odd jobs at our house still doesn't take Venmo or PayPal so I still pay him with checks.
I use cash even less frequently. Usually just in the vending machines at work on the rare occasions I have to go into the office.
Regarding businesses that don't take electronic payments, that doesn't necessarily prevent an individual customer from using the bank's online bill payment service. Our exterminator doesn't accept electronic payments, but I pay using the bill payment service and the bank actually cuts a check and sends it. I once sent my father money that way. I warned him he'd receive a check that looked different from my normal one because it would have a different design and wouldn't be in my handwriting. I guess he forgot because he claimed I hadn't paid him. I then found the check the bank sent him and he said he had thought it might be one of those scam checks where if you deposited it you'd be signing up for something you don't want or change your long-distance carrier or similar.
Incidentally, here's one most of you would regard as a blast from the past: My mom does not use an ATM (doesn't even know what her PIN is and says she doesn't know how to use one, although I'm sure she'd easily figure it out). If she needs cash, she writes a check to "Cash" and goes to the bank. That almost caused a problem last year when the pandemic closures were at their peak (the bank she uses closed their drive-up lanes in favor of drive-up ATMs based on customer usage patterns). I at least got her to use mobile deposit for when she received a check and she liked it.
(Edited to clarify the second paragraph)
The very last time I wrote a check was sometime in 2016. After that, the apartment complex I lived in at the time switched to an electronic payment system and I haven't written a check to anyone since.
My wife has a small business. The number of checks she receives has drastically declined, but there are still some customers that will pay via check. I can deposit these checks via the bank app, but they charge 50 cents per check. So I just bring them to the bank when I make cash deposits.
For me to deposit checks into a personal account, it's free.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 17, 2021, 08:22:28 PM
On the whole, I find it baffling and disturbing that paper checks still have both your routing number and account number on them. It makes it too easy to steal info. That happened to my wife in 2017: She wrote a large-amount personal check as a down payment on a car and two business days later someone cleaned out her bank account. She got the money back, thankfully, but setting up a new account, getting new checks, etc., was a big hassle. We're convinced it had to be someone at the car dealership who had access to the check she wrote, but we don't know for sure because we were not informed about how any law enforcement investigation, if any, turned out.
I've longed said this: If someone were to introduce the idea of a "check" today, they would be laughed out of the room based on how insecure the idea would be. The same people that demanded receipts only show the last 4 digits of an account number also seem to be the people likely to hand a check over to a complete stranger with their name, address, bank name, bank account number and routing number on it.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 12:35:29 AM
Quote from: webny99 on March 17, 2021, 11:31:54 PM
Yes, I get that. And of course, most companies would be doing way more than three transactions per year - they might be doing ten times that per day. Even if there is a fee (I believe it depends on the bank), it would certainly be worth it for any medium-sized or larger company.
Far from certain–it really depends on the business and the industry the business is in. There are some businesses that require you to do business by fax machine, even now, because everyone in the industry just does stuff by fax so it doesn't seem as weird and out-of-date to them as it does everyone else.
There are some extremes here...some places rely on fax machines; others don't have them anymore. For the middleman, which is where I can come into play sometimes, it can be a hassle. And the pandemic didn't help matters where we're doing work from home, dealing with companies that still demand faxes (which is such a 1980's way of thinking that they're more secure than most other options out there). A few coworkers had to set up their printers to fax. I was able to work with those I have to deal with to use various forms of secured email.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2021, 08:46:31 AM
....
There are some extremes here...some places rely on fax machines; others don't have them anymore. For the middleman, which is where I can come into play sometimes, it can be a hassle. And the pandemic didn't help matters where we're doing work from home, dealing with companies that still demand faxes (which is such a 1980's way of thinking that they're more secure than most other options out there). A few coworkers had to set up their printers to fax. I was able to work with those I have to deal with to use various forms of secured email.
Some US government agencies insist on either a mailed paper copy or a fax. I have a fax machine (currently disconnected), but it's an inkjet and the ink cartridge dried up some years ago and I don't want to waste my money on a new one. Last time I needed to send a fax, I went to the UPS Store. It was cheaper to pay them than it was to buy a new ink cartridge. I suppose I could have set up an e-fax service, but that was a hassle under the particular circumstances I had right then.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 12:35:29 AM
Depends on the bank. Some may charge per transaction. Mine may even, actually; the only reason I know they charge for access to the ACH portal is because I accidentally activated it once. I noticed the ACH fee, called them up and asked about it, and they re-disabled the portal for me and waived the fee.
As for the postage, the nice thing about that is that it's the customer paying it, not the seller. But as for the postage...
I think you mean ACH fees at the end there?
I have never heard of an ACH fee being charged per transaction. Wire, certainly, but not ACH. And of course, the fact that the customer has to pay postage is one of the reasons they may
want to pay by ACH.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 12:35:29 AM
Quote
... increasingly, a lot of customers expect to be able to pay by ACH, so it's certainly an option you'd want to offer them, and at some point (either as it becomes the norm, or you get more requests for it, or both) it's likely to become more of a necessity than a possibility.
I think you're overvaluing how much a business-to-business customer really cares about the method of payment. Sure, if I sell someone $23 worth of playing cards, if I don't take a convenient method of payment like a credit card, they are going to turn to another company that does. If I sell a business $23,000 worth of playing cards, they are making enough of a commitment to my product that they are really not going to kill the whole sale because I want to be paid by check instead of ACH. ...
Throwing away all of the hours of legwork that went into reaching a deal just because of a stamp would be a pretty big waste of manpower.
It depends on the customer. Certainly, for a very large sale the payment method is likely to be little more than a blip on the radar. But many businesses are dealing with
both large and small customers, which is one of the big reasons why I think it's good business practice to offer different options. Also, not offering options can affect perception of the company: Personally, I'd think you're either old-school, a very small company, or both. You'd rather not have your customers thinking that, because even if it doesn't change their decision this time, it might factor in next time.
As for the latter point, that's certainly not what I meant. The reasons they might want to pay by ACH are much more varied than just postage. Maybe they've had checks get lost in the mail - as you mentioned yourself. Maybe they're in an industry where almost everyone accepts it, so that's how they pay, and it's just expected.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 12:35:29 AM
I don't do business-to-business sales often, but I have never had anyone ask to pay by ACH. The largest sale I ever did, I asked for payment by check, they offered PayPal instead, I kind of complained because I didn't incorporate PayPal fees into the quote they agreed to, so they just sent extra to cover the fees.
This also depends on the industry and the customer. It sounds like you got a decent customer. Many customers might have just said "stuff it". The larger the company, the less feasible it is to do what you did. A large company would have to have a policy established, and I'd favor making things as convenient as possible for the customer (which tends to have the added benefit of making collections easier), and that means giving them options.
I write a few checks. Mainly for things that I'm only going to do once (or rarely repeat) so it's not worth the hassle of entering all the data for an online payment. Or the occasional home repair, where the repairman doesn't have the capability of accepting a credit card.
Let's just say that I write few enough checks to not have to worry about writing the correct year when the calendar turns over to January. Or even Feb or March - I don't remember if I wrote a check this year yet.
The last check I used was voided when I updated my direct deposit info a few years back.
Once a year, when it's time to renew my tags. Well, last year we renewed by mail because the tag office was closed due to COVID. But, otherwise, I just walk a few blocks up to the tag office and write a check.
My wife might write a check occasionally, I don't know.
We've also bought our last two vehicles by personal check. That feels weird, I gotta say.
I still write checks to my family in Puerto Rico, since Zelle and Venmo are not available in Puerto Rico and my grandparents aren't very tech savvy anyway. As for prepaid gift cards they carry activation fees on top of their face value.
Quote from: webny99 on March 18, 2021, 09:01:59 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 12:35:29 AM
Depends on the bank. Some may charge per transaction. Mine may even, actually; the only reason I know they charge for access to the ACH portal is because I accidentally activated it once. I noticed the ACH fee, called them up and asked about it, and they re-disabled the portal for me and waived the fee.
As for the postage, the nice thing about that is that it's the customer paying it, not the seller. But as for the postage...
I think you mean ACH fees at the end there?
I have never heard of an ACH fee being charged per transaction. Wire, certainly, but not ACH. And of course, the fact that the customer has to pay postage is one of the reasons they may want to pay by ACH.
Like I said, I don't know what additional fees there are, since I've never done ACH origination at my bank. I went to look at their fee schedule just now and it says "We are currently updating this page. For more information about commercial checking accounts, please contact..." so I couldn't tell you for sure.
Also, I don't think you necessarily have to have access to that portal to
receive ACH transactions. I transfer money to the business account from my personal account sometimes. I believe that transfer is ACH, but I'm originating it from my personal bank, which doesn't charge a fee for doing so.
Quote
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 12:35:29 AM
Quote
... increasingly, a lot of customers expect to be able to pay by ACH, so it's certainly an option you'd want to offer them, and at some point (either as it becomes the norm, or you get more requests for it, or both) it's likely to become more of a necessity than a possibility.
I think you're overvaluing how much a business-to-business customer really cares about the method of payment. Sure, if I sell someone $23 worth of playing cards, if I don't take a convenient method of payment like a credit card, they are going to turn to another company that does. If I sell a business $23,000 worth of playing cards, they are making enough of a commitment to my product that they are really not going to kill the whole sale because I want to be paid by check instead of ACH. ...
Throwing away all of the hours of legwork that went into reaching a deal just because of a stamp would be a pretty big waste of manpower.
It depends on the customer. Certainly, for a very large sale the payment method is likely to be little more than a blip on the radar. But many businesses are dealing with both large and small customers, which is one of the big reasons why I think it's good business practice to offer different options.
Well, keep in mind that the economics are different for large and small customers. For small customers, I charge full retail price and they can pay by credit card, because the full retail price has $1 worth of padding in it that covers the credit card fee. (So the customer is paying the credit card fee, they just don't know it. If there were no such thing as credit card fees, the price would be a dollar less.)
For large customers, the per-unit price is less, since most of the time they're going to be re-selling them, or they're buying them for institutional use and thus need a large number of units. That price does
not cover the credit card fee, so it's critical that they pay by check. The credit card fee for a $23,000 transaction would be $928.30, about a fourth of my profit, so that's a kind of substantial amount to lose just to make things easier on some Accounts Payable guy who isn't even making the purchasing decisions.
Quote
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 12:35:29 AM
I don't do business-to-business sales often, but I have never had anyone ask to pay by ACH. The largest sale I ever did, I asked for payment by check, they offered PayPal instead, I kind of complained because I didn't incorporate PayPal fees into the quote they agreed to, so they just sent extra to cover the fees.
This also depends on the industry and the customer. It sounds like you got a decent customer. Many customers might have just said "stuff it". The larger the company, the less feasible it is to do what you did. A large company would have to have a policy established, and I'd favor making things as convenient as possible for the customer (which tends to have the added benefit of making collections easier), and that means giving them options.
I do have a policy established–pay by check. I made an exception to that policy for this customer, who, at the time they suddenly told me they wanted to pay with PayPal, had already received the product a couple of weeks prior, so it's not like they could just make the decision to take their business elsewhere at that point. If they'd said "stuff it", well, then lawyers probably would have gotten involved.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 04:28:40 PM
Also, I don't think you necessarily have to have access to that portal to receive ACH transactions. I transfer money to the business account from my personal account sometimes. I believe that transfer is ACH, but I'm originating it from my personal bank, which doesn't charge a fee for doing so.
Well, that's what I'm getting at: if there's no fee to receive the ACH transaction, it's no difference to you, so there's no reason not to accept payment that way. If you've got the recipient's banking info saved in the banking system, it's almost certainly ACH. The banking system(s) I'm familiar with call ACH receptions "electronic deposits" in the item description.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 04:28:40 PM
For large customers, the per-unit price is less, since most of the time they're going to be re-selling them, or they're buying them for institutional use and thus need a large number of units. That price does not cover the credit card fee, so it's critical that they pay by check. The credit card fee for a $23,000 transaction would be $928.30, about a fourth of my profit, so that's a kind of substantial amount to lose just to make things easier on some Accounts Payable guy who isn't even making the purchasing decisions.
When I said "options" in this context, I meant check or ACH, not necessarily credit card. Totally understood why you wouldn't accept credit cards for a purchase that large (although some companies do, and some do, but only up to a certain transaction size).
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 04:28:40 PM
I do have a policy established–pay by check. I made an exception to that policy for this customer, who, at the time they suddenly told me they wanted to pay with PayPal, had already received the product a couple of weeks prior, so it's not like they could just make the decision to take their business elsewhere at that point. If they'd said "stuff it", well, then lawyers probably would have gotten involved.
By "stuff it", I didn't mean take their business elsewhere, but rather, make you eat the fees. Which I imagine you would have done if that's what it came to, similar to how a company that doesn't normally accept credit cards might make an exception if someone with a past-due account said that's the only way they could pay.
As a teenager without a bank account, I have never written a check.
There are a handful of things for which I still write checks, including some regular recurring payments. For my water bill, an electronic payment is available online, but there's an additional fee. Another payment I have only offers online payments if you set up automatic deductions, and I don't want to do that because there might be a month when I want to delay that payment by a few days or even skip it for that month.
And I also write a check to my mechanic when I need to pay him for vehicle work, since he doesn't take credit cards. And I have written checks at other stores if I didn't have my debit card with me.
If anything, the number of checks I write has actually increased over the past year.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 18, 2021, 08:34:09 PM
There are a handful of things for which I still write checks, including some regular recurring payments. For my water bill, an electronic payment is available online, but there's an additional fee.
Mine does that too, but it's less than 55¢, so I grumble and pay it since that means technically come out ahead, since I don't use a stamp.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 09:11:46 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 18, 2021, 08:34:09 PM
There are a handful of things for which I still write checks, including some regular recurring payments. For my water bill, an electronic payment is available online, but there's an additional fee.
Mine does that too, but it's less than 55¢, so I grumble and pay it since that means technically come out ahead, since I don't use a stamp.
The local fee is somewhere around $3, and they have a drop box for payments outside City Hall, which I use because City Hall is within sight of the post office. The only time I have used the online service was last month, when roads were in terrible shape because of snow and no one was going to go to town in that weather just to drop off the water bill. I typically wait until the day it's due to pay it.
$3?! Gross! I'd definitely be bothering my city council rep about that if it was that high. But then again, it sounds like you're probably out of city limits, so you probably don't have a city council rep...
I don't know if you can drop off payments at city hall or not. The mailing address for Norman city bill payments is a P.O. box in Oklahoma City for some reason...
I pay my rent with a check, plus some doctor bills.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 09:29:52 PM
$3?! Gross! I'd definitely be bothering my city council rep about that if it was that high. But then again, it sounds like you're probably out of city limits, so you probably don't have a city council rep...
In my town, it's $1.05 for a payment out of a bank account; 2.95% of the total if using a credit card. Water/Sewer, minimum per quarter, is $180.95, so the minimum charge for using a credit card would be $5.34.
In another town I have to pay the water/sewer bill, it's a $1.95 for an ACH payment from your bank account, no limit on the payment; $4.95 flat charge for a Credit Card, with a $500 limit.
While you appear that these charges are high, you're a business owner and should know exactly what you're charged, so why do you think the fee suddenly seems unreasonable? Someone needs to pay, and these are basic charges to cover the fees charged to the town.
Quote from: US71 on March 18, 2021, 09:38:29 PM
I pay my rent with a check, plus some doctor bills.
Come to think of it, I paid for a cleaning at the dentist this past Monday by writing a check. Insurance will reimburse part of it, but I have to pay upfront because my dentist is out of network.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2021, 09:49:10 PM
While you appear that these charges are high, you're a business owner and should know exactly what you're charged, so why do you think the fee suddenly seems unreasonable? Someone needs to pay, and these are basic charges to cover the fees charged to the town.
A public utility isn't–or shouldn't be–a for-profit entity.
Quote from: US71 on March 18, 2021, 09:38:29 PM
I pay my rent with a check, plus some doctor bills.
Forgot about rent. Yep, that's another monthly check we write.
I stopped writing checks after they kept coming back around 2019. I ran out and just never reordered.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 10:01:12 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2021, 09:49:10 PM
While you appear that these charges are high, you're a business owner and should know exactly what you're charged, so why do you think the fee suddenly seems unreasonable? Someone needs to pay, and these are basic charges to cover the fees charged to the town.
A public utility isn't–or shouldn't be–a for-profit entity.
In both towns, they are township entities.
Some other towns do use for-profit entities, but not in these towns.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2021, 09:49:10 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 09:29:52 PM
$3?! Gross! I'd definitely be bothering my city council rep about that if it was that high. But then again, it sounds like you're probably out of city limits, so you probably don't have a city council rep...
In my town, it's $1.05 for a payment out of a bank account; 2.95% of the total if using a credit card. Water/Sewer, minimum per quarter, is $180.95, so the minimum charge for using a credit card would be $5.34.
In another town I have to pay the water/sewer bill, it's a $1.95 for an ACH payment from your bank account, no limit on the payment; $4.95 flat charge for a Credit Card, with a $500 limit.
While you appear that these charges are high, you're a business owner and should know exactly what you're charged, so why do you think the fee suddenly seems unreasonable? Someone needs to pay, and these are basic charges to cover the fees charged to the town.
I have no problem with governments and public utilities adding reasonable charges to cover their costs for processing ACH and credit card transactions, which unlike retail are not built into the tax or cost structure. A 2.95% credit card fee is very reasonable to cover the merchant fee charged by Visa/MasterCard/Discover/AmEx. The charge probably varies by card, so to keep things simple the government/utility charges the highest possible cost to everyone. On the other hand, a $3.00 fee (or even a $1.05 fee) assessed by your town to initiate an ACH Debit transaction is criminal. If the town's bank is really charging that much, it's time for the town treasurer to look around for another institution.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 19, 2021, 01:17:02 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 18, 2021, 09:49:10 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 09:29:52 PM
$3?! Gross! I'd definitely be bothering my city council rep about that if it was that high. But then again, it sounds like you're probably out of city limits, so you probably don't have a city council rep...
In my town, it's $1.05 for a payment out of a bank account; 2.95% of the total if using a credit card. Water/Sewer, minimum per quarter, is $180.95, so the minimum charge for using a credit card would be $5.34.
In another town I have to pay the water/sewer bill, it's a $1.95 for an ACH payment from your bank account, no limit on the payment; $4.95 flat charge for a Credit Card, with a $500 limit.
While you appear that these charges are high, you're a business owner and should know exactly what you're charged, so why do you think the fee suddenly seems unreasonable? Someone needs to pay, and these are basic charges to cover the fees charged to the town.
I have no problem with governments and public utilities adding reasonable charges to cover their costs for processing ACH and credit card transactions, which unlike retail are not built into the tax or cost structure. A 2.95% credit card fee is very reasonable to cover the merchant fee charged by Visa/MasterCard/Discover/AmEx. The charge probably varies by card, so to keep things simple the government/utility charges the highest possible cost to everyone. On the other hand, a $3.00 fee (or even a $1.05 fee) assessed by your town to initiate an ACH Debit transaction is criminal. If the town's bank is really charging that much, it's time for the town treasurer to look around for another institution.
Towns have millions of dollars flowing thru their bank accounts, with a lot of activity. An ACH charge is just one of many factors in choosing a bank, and any ACH payment for a taxpayer is one of 3 options they can choose (Bring cash or a check in person; pay by check in person/drop off/mail, or ACH). Trying to lower the ACH charge (which is ultimate paid by the taxpayer) may result in higher fees elsewhere or a lower interest rate. High volume, high dollar value customers aren't anything like what a consumer is used to dealing with.
If I choose to mail it, I'm paying 55 cents, plus the cost of the envelope, plus the cost of the check.
If I choose to go in person, I'm paying for the cost of the check plus mileage on my car. If the IRS says the reimbursement rate is 56 cents per mile, then a 2 mile round trip cost me more in the long run than it did for the ACH. If I need to take mass transit, taxi or an Uber, it'll be more.
If I choose to pay with cash, it would most likely have involved a trip to the bank and a trip to the municipal building.
So as you see, no matter which way you pay, there's a cost incurred, even if it's a hidden, discreet cost.
Personally, I write very few. My buddy has season tickets to Ohio State Football games, and he usually sells me one game a year. A couple years ago, when I went to write him a check, I realized that the last check I had written was to him for the tickets the year before. All my utilities, insurance, HOA fees, church contributions, etc., are either auto-pay or I go online to pay them. I don't pay a fee for any online payments I make. Prior to the pandemic, I used to pay local businesses in cash, because the fees they pay when you use a debit or credit card are outrageous. Now, many of them don't want cash, so my trips to the ATM are down to about once every 3 months.
I am the office manager for a small construction company, and as a result, part of my job is generating checks. We probably issue 15-25 checks a week, plus payroll checks. Our salaried employees all get direct deposit, but only a handful of our hourly employees opt for direct deposit. The main reason they don't do it, is the lag time. Our pay period runs from Thursday through Wednesday. I run payroll Thursday morning as soon as I get the timesheets, and they get their checks that day. For the ones who opt for Direct Deposit, the money does not hit their accounts until Friday night at the earliest.
About 80% of our customers pay us by check. A few use ACH. We don't accept credit cards.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 18, 2021, 09:29:52 PM
$3?! Gross! I'd definitely be bothering my city council rep about that if it was that high. But then again, it sounds like you're probably out of city limits, so you probably don't have a city council rep...
I don't know if you can drop off payments at city hall or not. The mailing address for Norman city bill payments is a P.O. box in Oklahoma City for some reason...
I do live out of the city limits, but the water system is administered by the city. The online payments are handled by a third-party processor so the extra charge is probably their fee.
I need to write at least two checks each month. One is for the rent on the house I and my family live in (a tiny third-party real estate firm handles the payments and they don't have an online system) and one is to the stable where my wife boards two horses.
Until recently I had to write a check for our water bill (on a quarterly basis), but the local water authority finally got its act together and created an online payment system. (Rushing headlong into the 1980s... whoa, don't look back!)
I used to write about 300 checks a year.
I started paying my bills electronically about eighteen years ago. I now write about one check a month- mostly to charities and small businesses, and to the local government which still won't accept an electronic payment. If I wait too long to enter the payment for the sewer and trash bill, my bank does not have the time they require to cut the paper check and mail it to the City, so I'll write the check and mail it locally.
At the grocery, I used to use my debit card, but it much more often than not makes more sense to pay with a credit card and take advantage of the "float", especially if you get a cash rebate or some kind of point bonus. I don't think I've written a check at a grocery since 1996.
I did, just yesterday. A big one ... paid my car off.
Stimulus check comes, stimulus check goes. :awesomeface:
One today for the plumber. They will take credit cards, but with a service charge.
I pay quarterlies for tax. Used to have to write a check for both, but the feds now have an app for it, so its just the state. I buy gold coins as I can and the dealer charges extra for credit cards. That is it. A book of checks will last me decades.