I remember several decades ago that some states put up black signs with white lettering that said something like "RADAR DETECTORS ILLEGAL", and one such state that comes to mind is VA. Do these signs still exist, or have they been phased out (most likely for the traditional white signs with black letters)?
Virginia's current welcome sign is a Big Black Sign. (https://goo.gl/maps/PxXWqwb7WuRsj2d37)
The "RADAR DETECTORS ILLEGAL" signs still exist in white-on-black form. (https://goo.gl/maps/Eue9Rep6fyDvxRWY7) The particular one seen in that link is slightly unusual in being posted as far after the "welcome" sign as it is. Over the years I've seen jokes about the radar detector sign being the true "Welcome to Virginia" sign.
PA uses them for weigh stations.
https://nysroads.com/photos.php?route=i83&state=PA&file=101_3875.JPG
Can't find a photo online anywhere but the I-395 HOV lanes in the 1980s had BBS's instead of BGS's on its sign gantries
A lot of BWI-related signage on area roads such as I-95, I-195, MD 100 & MD 295 are BBS's - here's one example (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1837972,-76.779469,3a,77.9y,58.08h,83.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOgDrdCdMSszsWbshHEdBmg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en).
(The signs entering the BWI terminal are also black (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1835377,-76.6739212,3a,43.1y,150.52h,91.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRxoZs9VgG4QB_CvI-Xy0QA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) - I presume these signs were installed & maintained by MDOT MAA rather than MDOT SHA. Not sure about the above-mentioned signage since those are on SHA-roadways, but clearly MAA had some level of influence with the matching blue banners. And at the end of the day, it's all MDOT.)
Quote from: vdeane on March 22, 2021, 12:40:26 PM
PA uses them for weigh stations.
https://nysroads.com/photos.php?route=i83&state=PA&file=101_3875.JPG
MD does as well. (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3110263,-76.9622652,3a,49.9y,329.16h,88.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slso6shmMGyN7gi2YvRQWsg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
Quote from: Mapmikey on March 22, 2021, 12:48:40 PM
Can't find a photo online anywhere but the I-395 HOV lanes in the 1980s had BBS's instead of BGS's on its sign gantries
The only picture I have of those is a black-and-white photo near Turkeycock, so it's not apparent.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2Ff7c13517.jpg&hash=3ce3d7dbc2445ce24eea91444c162da445e604ac)
As far as I know, I think some studies have found these to be problematic at night since black is a non-retroreflective sheeting color. This is the reason why white-on-black street blades did not make it into the 2009 MUTCD.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 22, 2021, 01:19:23 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on March 22, 2021, 12:48:40 PM
Can't find a photo online anywhere but the I-395 HOV lanes in the 1980s had BBS's instead of BGS's on its sign gantries
The only picture I have of those is a black-and-white photo near Turkeycock, so it's not apparent.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2Ff7c13517.jpg&hash=3ce3d7dbc2445ce24eea91444c162da445e604ac)
A shame that a photo can't be located of one in color with route shields on them. I thought they looked really sharp when I visited DC when I was in high school...
Quote from: Mapmikey on March 22, 2021, 04:22:56 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 22, 2021, 01:19:23 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on March 22, 2021, 12:48:40 PM
Can't find a photo online anywhere but the I-395 HOV lanes in the 1980s had BBS's instead of BGS's on its sign gantries
The only picture I have of those is a black-and-white photo near Turkeycock, so it's not apparent.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2Ff7c13517.jpg&hash=3ce3d7dbc2445ce24eea91444c162da445e604ac)
A shame that a photo can't be located of one in color with route shields on them. I thought they looked really sharp when I visited DC when I was in high school...
I always liked them, and I thought it was a more effective way of distinguishing between carriageways than the current style of putting an "EXPRESS EXIT" banner. I like Ontario's use of different-colored signs for the express lanes and collector lanes on Route 401 through Toronto for the same reason.
Come to think of it, in terms of finding a color photo with the dark signs, the older Google Street View images southbound at Turkeycock would have an old black "ALL TRAFFIC" sign (and an old-style Big Red Sign for "DO NOT ENTER"; both signs are gone now). I can't get a link for that since I'm using my iPad right now and the Google Maps app doesn't have the old Street View images as far as I know. That sign also didn't have any route shields, of course.
Edited to add the Street View from Turkeycock: https://goo.gl/maps/tfr7fNCstUnRaufu6
Big Black Sign (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2459937,-88.3725755,3a,15y,300.55h,92.4t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSZTUbZ1ADn1i_kIQ_xnW2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) at a weigh station in Mississippi, along I-22.
The first black signs I saw were in the short "Dad... Can I Borrow the Car?" I wondered how common they were.
Quote from: Mapmikey on March 22, 2021, 04:22:56 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 22, 2021, 01:19:23 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on March 22, 2021, 12:48:40 PM
Can't find a photo online anywhere but the I-395 HOV lanes in the 1980s had BBS's instead of BGS's on its sign gantries
The only picture I have of those is a black-and-white photo near Turkeycock, so it's not apparent.
(image deleted)
A shame that a photo can't be located of one in color with route shields on them. I thought they looked really sharp when I visited DC when I was in high school...
I sent VDOT a tweet asking if they had any pictures of the old black signs and they just replied that they were unable to locate any. Too bad. Worth a try, anyway.
Here's a BBS from the SW corner of Wisconsin on US-151 EB.
https://goo.gl/maps/i7gNiNQUbap6xbhx7 (https://goo.gl/maps/i7gNiNQUbap6xbhx7)
US 219 north in Ridgway PA approaching the truck route:
https://goo.gl/maps/GLaZSeHQGgUiPEyZ6
When I was a little road geek (late 60's-early 70's), I remember a lot of the older signs were white on black. In most cases they did not have an actual shield on them but used text instead. The newer big (darker than now) green signs generally did include shields. Note that I-270 back then was only a short cut link between 495 and what was then I-70S (I-70N went to Baltimore). That went away in the early to mid 1970s.
(https://wtop.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/357958.png)
The only black signs I remember having a shield outline on them were in California and they were really really old by the time I was old enough to notice them.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fpin%2F291115563387586106%2F&psig=AOvVaw1oowRfPQ7S748KVyrXTBhp&ust=1617133852135000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCNiL16Oj1u8CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fpin%2F291115563387586106%2F&psig=AOvVaw1oowRfPQ7S748KVyrXTBhp&ust=1617133852135000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAIQjRxqFwoTCNiL16Oj1u8CFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD)
Mass has been known to replace a big white sign with a big black one!
before: https://goo.gl/maps/cnsNyRGUoYsH1N849
after: https://goo.gl/maps/MqjWoRQskjVsapZ18
ditto northbound, https://goo.gl/maps/gZfF8ZbAhGhE9Pzk9 and https://goo.gl/maps/sXLueRVqordbeyXT7
It is not consistent for all weigh stations in the state though--it will be interesting to see if others are replaced like that or if it was some sort of one-off for whatever reason.
The only one I can remember in Washington State was on the 520 near Redmond to indicate a truck climbing lane (https://goo.gl/maps/F6ufkRCk5s7jXmns7). It's now gone, though.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 23, 2021, 04:21:15 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on March 22, 2021, 04:22:56 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 22, 2021, 01:19:23 PM
Quote from: Mapmikey on March 22, 2021, 12:48:40 PM
Can't find a photo online anywhere but the I-395 HOV lanes in the 1980s had BBS's instead of BGS's on its sign gantries
The only picture I have of those is a black-and-white photo near Turkeycock, so it's not apparent.
(image deleted)
A shame that a photo can't be located of one in color with route shields on them. I thought they looked really sharp when I visited DC when I was in high school...
I sent VDOT a tweet asking if they had any pictures of the old black signs and they just replied that they were unable to locate any. Too bad. Worth a try, anyway.
Thanks for trying...we can console ourselves with some British Columbia ones I remember from my 2014 trip to Vancouver...
https://goo.gl/maps/3PxxbVoRNd9bVGsc6
I suppose it's not really a huge surprise that it's hard to find I-395 pictures. Those signs were gone prior to the digital camera era, and to the extent there are people out there who do have pictures, the odds are that's a small population and the chances of any of those people having digitized those photos are even lower (much less being members of this forum).
Most of RDU airport's overheads are black, but these have seen better days
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8639975,-78.8085764,3a,39.6y,76.52h,95.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_6EqjYFvwN_m7Dj8PVrR8Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Some have been replaced since the google car went through, and look much better
California had many black signs and a few are still around on old surface alignments, but one rather large one survived until relatively recently on I-5 at the Newhall Pass truck bypass. I think it came down about a decade or so ago.
(EDIT: Here it is. Google has it, but only from certain angles and years. https://goo.gl/maps/PqzBu8DxWhTSL38u7 )
This was the last "big black sign" on I-395 in Virginia (HOV Lanes south at Turkeycock) before the express lane project resulted in its demise in 2018 or 2019:
https://goo.gl/maps/KJLxdYVdUdkhcMeq8
The replacement "All Traffic" sign is essentially the same, but has three arrows and the colors are inverted.
This used to be on northbound US-93 north of Kingman, before the Hoover Dam bridge was built. I assume the traffic restriction no longer exists and therefore neither does the sign.
(https://i.imgur.com/FAeF4vY.jpg)
The need for the restriction ended when US 93 was rerouted over the Mike O'Callaghan—Pat Tillman Memorial Bridge.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on July 02, 2021, 09:40:29 PM
This used to be on northbound US-93 north of Kingman, before the Hoover Dam bridge was built. I assume the traffic restriction no longer exists and therefore neither does the sign.
(https://i.imgur.com/FAeF4vY.jpg)
How's that for a beauty? Not only a big black sign with a big
NO, but it contains two different states' highway shields.
I recall that BBS's were used on the Forest Park Parkway until the late 90's. There was one at Grand, then another at the point where Pershing Ave branches off to the right just after Big Bend. It had button copy.
Quote from: dfnva on July 02, 2021, 01:02:49 PM
This was the last "big black sign" on I-395 in Virginia (HOV Lanes south at Turkeycock) before the express lane project resulted in its demise in 2018 or 2019:
https://goo.gl/maps/KJLxdYVdUdkhcMeq8
The replacement "All Traffic" sign is essentially the same, but has three arrows and the colors are inverted.
The thing I feel is more of a loss there is the old-school "Do Not Enter" sign. There were two of those on I-66 as well at the HOV exits for Monument Drive and Stringfellow Road, but I'm pretty sure they've met their demise as part of HO/T construction. I'm heading out that way later today, although I might not take I-66; if I do, I'll try to remember to see if they're still there. Even if they are, they won't last long.
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on April 03, 2021, 06:48:39 PM
California had many black signs and a few are still around on old surface alignments, but one rather large one survived until relatively recently on I-5 at the Newhall Pass truck bypass. I think it came down about a decade or so ago.
I remember seeing those signs much more recently than 10+ years ago. Looking a GMSV, it looks like those signs were replaced 4 years ago.
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 03, 2021, 10:18:18 AM
Quote from: dfnva on July 02, 2021, 01:02:49 PM
This was the last "big black sign" on I-395 in Virginia (HOV Lanes south at Turkeycock) before the express lane project resulted in its demise in 2018 or 2019:
https://goo.gl/maps/KJLxdYVdUdkhcMeq8
The replacement "All Traffic" sign is essentially the same, but has three arrows and the colors are inverted.
The thing I feel is more of a loss there is the old-school "Do Not Enter" sign. There were two of those on I-66 as well at the HOV exits for Monument Drive and Stringfellow Road, but I'm pretty sure they've met their demise as part of HO/T construction. I'm heading out that way later today, although I might not take I-66; if I do, I'll try to remember to see if they're still there. Even if they are, they won't last long.
We wound up going a different way and I didn't get to check on those signs.
Hampton Roads still has those "Do Not Enter" signs on the reversible Express Lanes segment in Norfolk. They were never removed or replaced with the conversion from HOV project a few years back.
https://goo.gl/maps/RzWT6ZiEMMF3gndE8
https://goo.gl/maps/MiZ3sYh1YUBkBcvp7
https://goo.gl/maps/n3WWe9xGkTCLHjLi9
https://goo.gl/maps/t2fH5LkbFcqGGst6A
Haha, that looks funny.
I seem to remember the US 65 freeway in Springfield, Mo. used BBS's instead of BGS's in the 1980s.
Quote from: Road Hog on July 03, 2021, 11:37:06 PM
I seem to remember the US 65 freeway in Springfield, Mo. used BBS's instead of BGS's in the 1980s.
Your eyes were probably deceiving you. MHTD's button-copy signage was such a dark shade of green it looked black sometimes.
Are there big black signs all over Alabama, or is it just the Mobile area?
Quote from: Road Hog on July 03, 2021, 11:37:06 PM
I seem to remember the US 65 freeway in Springfield, Mo. used BBS's instead of BGS's in the 1980s.
Wouldn't surprise me. There were still a couple of BBS on 71 at the Harrisonville exits into the early 1990s.
SM-T580
Some older black BGS that are button copy.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51267354539_7d23d338ef_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m7jAnR)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50138580433_c3bacf52e6_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50055287403_02227b6e6f_z.jpg)
Older RI non button copy
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48227216606_4486707663_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jozkak)
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on July 05, 2021, 11:37:36 AM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50055287403_02227b6e6f_z.jpg)
I guess the really question is... who's reading this?
Officer: "Well the sign listed the laws clearly, you should know better" .
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on July 05, 2021, 11:37:36 AM
Some older black BGS that are button copy.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50138580433_c3bacf52e6_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50055287403_02227b6e6f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jozkak)
These signs are clearly not black.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 05, 2021, 12:08:08 PM
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on July 05, 2021, 11:37:36 AM
Some older black BGS that are button copy.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50138580433_c3bacf52e6_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50055287403_02227b6e6f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jozkak)
These signs are clearly not black.
Well, yeah. They're probably faded to look grey or even like a very dark green.
Although, to the OP of these photos, you can't have a "black big GREEN sign". ;-)
Quote from: JoePCool14 on July 06, 2021, 11:41:58 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 05, 2021, 12:08:08 PM
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on July 05, 2021, 11:37:36 AM
Some older black BGS that are button copy.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50138580433_c3bacf52e6_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50055287403_02227b6e6f_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jozkak)
These signs are clearly not black.
Well, yeah. They're probably faded to look grey or even like a very dark green.
Although, to the OP of these photos, you can't have a "black big GREEN sign". ;-)
they never were black; Turnpike signs were always dark green.
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 05, 2021, 11:41:04 AM
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on July 05, 2021, 11:37:36 AM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50055287403_02227b6e6f_z.jpg)
I guess the really question is... who's reading this?
Officer: "Well the sign listed the laws clearly, you should know better" .
Perhaps NJ was planning for when the Borg invade Earth, as their visual implants might allow them to read those "traffic regulations" without slowing down. Then again, the Borg do not respect our laws... "Your regulations are irrelevant, you will be assimilated." :-D
Quote from: odditude on July 06, 2021, 03:57:27 PM
they never were black; Turnpike signs were always dark green.
odditude is right!
Been a sign geek since I was tiny and the we traveled the NJ Turnpike to go to Grandma's house up north many times - as far back as the late 60's. The NJTP was a highlight of that trip and I remember it well: those signs were always dark green. I do recall that hardly any ever used state or US Highway badges on BGS (using just the digits instead) - but all were a dark green.
As an aside, the NY Thruway and CT Turnpike each still had many blue signs at this time, IIRC.
Quote from: SSR_317 on July 07, 2021, 05:31:04 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on July 05, 2021, 11:41:04 AM
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on July 05, 2021, 11:37:36 AM
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50055287403_02227b6e6f_z.jpg)
I guess the really question is... who's reading this?
Officer: "Well the sign listed the laws clearly, you should know better" .
Perhaps NJ was planning for when the Borg invade Earth, as their visual implants might allow them to read those "traffic regulations" without slowing down. Then again, the Borg do not respect our laws... "Your regulations are irrelevant, you will be assimilated." :-D
Probably some court case where an out-of-state visitor challenged a traffic citation on notice grounds, and an appellate court held that under New Jersey law that the traffic regulations had to be posted somewhere in order to give adequate notice. Either that or the same scenario but specific to turnpike regulations.
Lake Ontario State Parkway in the Rochester, NY area had wooden white on black guide signs on eastern section between Hamlin Beach SP and Lake Ave in Rochester. Those signs were gone by 1990.
Quote from: steviep24 on September 09, 2021, 06:21:42 PM
Lake Ontario State Parkway in the Rochester, NY area had wooden white on black guide signs on eastern section between Hamlin Beach SP and Lake Ave in Rochester. Those signs were gone by 1990.
I just missed those then, as I shot some camcorder footage on part of Lake Ontario State Parkway in April 1991.
Quote from: Alex on September 09, 2021, 10:37:49 PM
Quote from: steviep24 on September 09, 2021, 06:21:42 PM
Lake Ontario State Parkway in the Rochester, NY area had wooden white on black guide signs on eastern section between Hamlin Beach SP and Lake Ave in Rochester. Those signs were gone by 1990.
I just missed those then, as I shot some camcorder footage on part of Lake Ontario State Parkway in April 1991.
Most of them were already gone in the early 80's but I did remember still seeing one or two in the mid 80's. The last ones were in the at grade section of the parkway. Those old signs were all text and all caps.
Quote from: Pink Jazz on March 22, 2021, 04:11:47 PM
As far as I know, I think some studies have found these to be problematic at night since black is a non-retroreflective sheeting color. This is the reason why white-on-black street blades did not make it into the 2009 MUTCD.
Makes sense. California used to use white-on-black for their earliest freeway signage, but then switched to the standard white-on-green because white-on-black didn't provide enough contrast, or hold its color during night. It's still used within the state on occasion, mainly for commercial vehicle info (i.e. truckers), and I think this is still allowed per the MUTCD, but that's about the only time I'll see it these days.
However, Idaho uses white-on-black for their highway shields (it's reversed for their markers), so the color scheme does still see usage.
Quote from: ClassicHasClass on April 03, 2021, 06:48:39 PM
California had many black signs and a few are still around on old surface alignments, but one rather large one survived until relatively recently on I-5 at the Newhall Pass truck bypass. I think it came down about a decade or so ago.
(EDIT: Here it is. Google has it, but only from certain angles and years. https://goo.gl/maps/PqzBu8DxWhTSL38u7 )
Some signs around the same area (as well as I-15 around Barstow) also had solid black interstate shields. Probably a contractor error. As far as I know, they all still exist.
Quote from: Quillz on September 12, 2021, 04:59:40 PM
However, Idaho uses white-on-black for their highway shields (it's reversed for their markers), so the color scheme does still see usage.
Not anymore:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22904.msg2496873#msg2496873
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on July 05, 2021, 11:37:36 AM
Some older black BGS that are button copy.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51267354539_7d23d338ef_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2m7jAnR)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50138580433_c3bacf52e6_z.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50055287403_02227b6e6f_z.jpg)
Older RI non button copy
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48227216606_4486707663_z.jpg)
(https://flic.kr/p/2jozkak)
The second one isn't showing up.
Quote from: US 89 on September 12, 2021, 05:33:24 PM
Quote from: Quillz on September 12, 2021, 04:59:40 PM
However, Idaho uses white-on-black for their highway shields (it's reversed for their markers), so the color scheme does still see usage.
Not anymore:
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22904.msg2496873#msg2496873
None of these images are still around. Is there a more recent pic? Either way, that's a shame. I actually borrowed the idea of inverted marker/shield templates for my California renumbering project.
Ah, found it in the linked supplement PDF. Yeah, it seems like a bit of a downgrade. Not having an outer border hurts legibility, I think. There's a reason signs have black borders inside a white border. What they had before looks a lot nicer.
I originally thought the signs that might've inspired this thread were here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4095255,-78.7095548,3a,75y,329.21h,80.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slvw0oyZddI7nqkEHiMnXuA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
And here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.4104442,-78.7110161,3a,75y,329.21h,80.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7MQKOR9biDmzvanqT2ABZQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
And of course, here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.411245,-78.7121821,3a,75y,320.88h,93.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9WnAV0Ax8NVCJlp-7RHGnA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
And I can see that's not the case.
Quote from: D-Dey65 on September 12, 2021, 05:37:24 PM
The second one isn't showing up.
I see it. You may need to open it in a new tab using right-click.
Quote from: jakeroot on September 12, 2021, 06:31:39 PM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on September 12, 2021, 05:37:24 PM
The second one isn't showing up.
I see it. You may need to open it in a new tab using right-click.
I tried to open it, and Flickr is explicitly saying it's a bad link.
Quote from: 1 on September 12, 2021, 06:43:59 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 12, 2021, 06:31:39 PM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on September 12, 2021, 05:37:24 PM
The second one isn't showing up.
I see it. You may need to open it in a new tab using right-click.
I tried to open it, and Flickr is explicitly saying it's a bad link.
Hm... for me, the images from Corco Highways don't show up unless I open them in a new tab, but my Flickr photos load just fine.
I did not notice there was actually four links in the post. Pictures 1, 3, and 4 show up. The second also is not working for me.