Growing up, I knew that the major Interstate routes end in 5 or 0 because that factoid was included on many road maps. It wasn't until I discovered MTR that I learned that for US routes, the main routes ended in 1 or 0, not 5 or 0.
So when the Interstates were built, why weren't the major ones built parallel to the major US routes?
Some of them were, such as US 1 and I-95, but many weren't. US 11, the second major N-S route, parallels only I-75 for a short distance (and I-20 and I-40, too, if you want to get technical) but spends most of its time alongside 59 and 81. US 21's companion route was I-77, not an x5. US 31 is completely independent of any Interstate north of Indianapolis. Ditto US 41 between Nashville and Chicago. US 51 parallels I-55 only as far north as Memphis, and US 61 picks up from there but only to St. Louis.
And the same thing happens with E-W routes. Look at US 30, US 50, and US 60.
Had travel patterns changed in the years between the creation of the US route system and the Interstate system to the point where the major corridors were no longer thought to be the same? What was the reasoning behind designating different major corridors between the two systems?
I take the x1 major US routes thing with a grain of salt, especially out in the west. I think they're laid out badly, and it's a blessing some x5 interstates don't parallel them.
But an eastern example is US 21. Even before truncation, 19, 23, 25 and 27 are longer, felt more important and more "˜major' than 21 to me. 25 got replaced by I-75 from Knoxville northward for the most part too, while I-77 wasn't even in the original interstate plans. Can't comment on 29 because it's a different trajectory than the other odd 2x.
For the 8x, US 81 doesn't really go through that many important places outside of Texas and parts of Kansas, and both 85 and 87 seemed more important (and got replaced by I-25 in the interstates era).
There's also US 99, which I'll say it's a bit more important to the west coast overall than 101, as it got replaced by I-5.
Some of the corridors had a huge shift in importance over time. Example; US 99 definitely became the more important long distance route over time compared to US 101. The corridor of 99 ended up with way more people north of San Francisco and went through way better terrain. I would largely attribute those as the reasons why I-5 mostly follows what was US 99 north of Los Angeles.
The US system was set up when many areas, especially in the West but also in the South, weren't as populated as they were by the time the Interstates came along. Snowbirds and retirement homes, industry moving south and west, lots of reasons. That accounts for some of the difference.
There's also fewer numbers available for "major" Interstates, to keep away from duplicate numbers in the same area. Particularly E-W, where I-50 and I-60 were skipped, so there's 8 possibilities instead of 10. And for N-S, US-101 resulted in 11 "major" routes, where the Interstates had only 10, and one of them, I-45, was relegated to staying in Texas. The Interstate system also was restricted in the number of miles.
I'm guessing a lot of traffic patterns changed over the 4 decades between the US and Interstate system launches.
Thinking about I-85 vs I-81, from 1920 to 1960, Charlotte, Raleigh, and Durham all basically quadrupled in size and the Great Appalachian Valley cities probably remained about the same. I'd suspect by then the Piedmont region had supplanted the Great Appalachian Valley in terms of transport. I-81 remains one of the major non -0 and -5 Interstates though.
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 23, 2021, 02:38:28 PM
I take the x1 major US routes thing with a grain of salt, especially out in the west. I think they're laid out badly, and it's a blessing some x5 interstates don't parallel them.
Worth noting that I-15 mostly replaced US 91 since most of the route was in unpopulated areas, so US 91 formerly served its role as a long-haul route over a main transportation corridor.
Quote from: GaryV on March 23, 2021, 04:23:29 PM
There's also fewer numbers available for "major" Interstates, to keep away from duplicate numbers in the same area. Particularly E-W, where I-50 and I-60 were skipped, so there's 8 possibilities instead of 10.
It's admittedly not too terribly important, but there are 7 possibilities instead of 9.
Quote from: dkblake on March 23, 2021, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 23, 2021, 02:38:28 PM
I take the x1 major US routes thing with a grain of salt, especially out in the west. I think they’re laid out badly, and it’s a blessing some x5 interstates don’t parallel them.
Worth noting that I-15 mostly replaced US 91 since most of the route was in unpopulated areas, so US 91 formerly served its role as a long-haul route over a main transportation corridor.
I-15 is a notable one. The OP mentioned I-55 with US 51 and 61. Here's a rough list of the US routes each x5 interstate parallels or replaced, with x1 US routes bolded
I-5:
US 101 Mexico Border-LA, US 99 LA-Canadian Border
I-15: US 395 San Diego-Inland Empire,
US 91 Inland Empire-Canadian Border
I-25: US 85 NM, US 85/87 CO, US 87 WY
I-35:
US 81 Laredo to Ft Worth, US 77 Ft Worth to point south of OK-KS border, US 81 near Wichita, US 50 Emporia-Kansas City, US 69 Kansas City-Des Moines, US 65/69 Des Moines-Albert Lea, US 65 Albert Lea-Minneapolis,
US 61 Minneapolis-Duluth
I-45: US 75 Galveston-Dallas
I-55:
US 51 Laplace-Memphis,
US 61 Memphis-St Louis, US 66 St Louis-Chicago
I-65:
US 31 Mobile-Indianapolis, roughly US 52/231 Indianapolis-Gary
I-75:
US 41 Miami-Chattanooga,
US 11 Chattanooga-Knoxville, US 25 Knoxville-Detroit, US 10 Detroit-Bay City (includes US 23), US 27 Grayling-St Ignace (includes
US 31), US 2 St Ignace-Canada Border
I-85: US 29 Montgomery-Greensboro, US 70 Greensboro-Durham, US 15 Durham-some point near NC-VA border,
US 1 from that point to Petersburg
I-95:
US 1 Miami-Jacksonville, US 17 Jacksonville-N of Savannah, US 15 portions in SC, US 301 near I-26 interchange-Richmond, US 1 Richmond-Baltimore, US 40 Baltimore-Wilmington, US 13 Wilmington-Philadelphia, US 1 Philadelphia-Portland (ME), US 202 Portland-Bangor, US 2 Bangor-Canada Border.
So each one except 25 and 45 parallel/replaced a portion of an x1 US route.
The US highway network was a lot more dense than the interstate network, with a lot more diagonal routes, so you could have your primary routes stay truer to their directions rather than veering to hit major cities (yes, I know there are exceptions).
One example:
US 52 exists to get you between US 41 in Chicago and US 31 in Indianapolis, so you didn't need a dedicated route number for Chicago-Indy. With the much less dense interstate network, the same interstate number that followed US 31 from Alabama to Indiana could be used to angle up to Chicago.
Some random thoughts:
The Interstate System was laid out to connect major cities and, secondarily, military installations. Not all of the US route network did that, and the ones that didn't were no blessed with an Interstate route parallel to them.
Also there's this thought that x1 and x5 US route are supposed to be major routes. That really isn't true; only the x1 routes were originally supposed to be major routes. Some of the x5 routes, like 35, 45, 65, and 95, have very few Interstate concurrencies or four lane sections. There is no 55.
Also, the nation changed significantly in the thirty years between the US system being implemented and the Interstate system being built, A car was much more of a necessity in 1956 than it was in 1926. Roads were mostly paved, and the authorities knew what the major routes were. I suspect the profession of Traffic Engineering refined itself seriously.
There are a lot of border border north south US routes in the western United States. Even though they are generally longer and further apart than similar north-south routes east of the Mississippi, most are not four lanes and haven't merited an Interstate designation because the ares they connect are not densely populated and therefor there is not enough traffic to justify a more substantial road.
It's interesting to live in a state that is still growing at a fast rate. In my corner of Arizona, US 80 used to enter the state at Yuma, no north at Gila Bend to the Phoenix area, head down to Tucson and to the border at Douglas, then back northeast into New Mexico. The Yuma- Gila Bend stretch is now I-8. From Phoenix east, I-10 follows the old I-80 route, but between 1926 and 1956 the copper mines and smelters in SE Arizona ceased being the state's economic engine. It was not longer necessary to have a transcontinental highway pass through them, and I-10 was routed on a shorter routing further north.
Plus the system continues to evolve; even sixty years ago Phoenix and Las Vegas were not large enough, and thus did not have enough traffic between them, to merit an Interstate route. Now they do, and the route is under development.
Quote from: Konza on March 23, 2021, 07:16:58 PM
Also there's this thought that x1 and x5 US route are supposed to be major routes. That really isn't true; only the x1 routes were originally supposed to be major routes. Some of the x5 routes, like 35, 45, 65, and 95, have very few Interstate concurrencies or four lane sections. There is no 55.
There seems to be examples of pre-interstate era major routes from each odd digit. The x7s also have some notable major routes, including 17, 27, 67, 77 and 87. The x9s have 9, 19, 29, 69 and 99. 59 doesn't really seem that major outside of Texas, that's why I exclude it. Same with 89 formerly for Arizona. The x3s seem to have less than the others, as I can only think of 23 and maybe 63. 83 is very long, but it's still 2 lanes most of the way and doesn't parallel any interstates. Same with 93, outside of Phoenix-Vegas.
What is more interesting to me is the fact that US 42 (an even numbered route) was replaced with an odd numbered interstate. And US 67 from Little Rock to Dallas (another N-S route) was replaced with even numbered I-30.
Then you have part of US 41 between Chatannooga, and Nashville get replaced with an even numbered route, I-24.
Also to mention that I-95 parts ways with US 1 from Jacksonville to Richmond instead of being routed through Columbia and Raleigh . I-89 in NH-VT also follows US 4 in NH, but in VT it follows VT 16, US 2, and US 7.
I guess its all to the fact that demands of people have changed, but do not forget that US 21 was completely replaced (as one mentioned here already) and even though from Columbia to Hunting Island in SC is independent of a freeway, it still has both I-26 and I-95 cutting the distance from Columbia to SE SC as discussed in a thread here that wondered why I-77 does not go all the way to Savannah, GA following US 21.
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 23, 2021, 05:33:27 PM
Quote from: dkblake on March 23, 2021, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 23, 2021, 02:38:28 PM
I take the x1 major US routes thing with a grain of salt, especially out in the west. I think they're laid out badly, and it's a blessing some x5 interstates don't parallel them.
Worth noting that I-15 mostly replaced US 91 since most of the route was in unpopulated areas, so US 91 formerly served its role as a long-haul route over a main transportation corridor.
I-15 is a notable one. The OP mentioned I-55 with US 51 and 61. Here's a rough list of the US routes each x5 interstate parallels or replaced, with x1 US routes bolded
I-5: US 101 Mexico Border-LA, US 99 LA-Canadian Border
I-15: US 395 San Diego-Inland Empire, US 91 Inland Empire-Canadian Border
I-25: US 85 NM, US 85/87 CO, US 87 WY
I-35: US 81 Laredo to Ft Worth, US 77 Ft Worth to point south of OK-KS border, US 81 near Wichita, US 50 Emporia-Kansas City, US 69 Kansas City-Des Moines, US 65/69 Des Moines-Albert Lea, US 65 Albert Lea-Minneapolis, US 61 Minneapolis-Duluth
I-45: US 75 Galveston-Dallas
I-55: US 51 Laplace-Memphis, US 61 Memphis-St Louis, US 66 St Louis-Chicago
I-65: US 31 Mobile-Indianapolis, roughly US 52/231 Indianapolis-Gary
I-75: US 41 Miami-Chattanooga, US 11 Chattanooga-Knoxville, US 25 Knoxville-Detroit, US 10 Detroit-Bay City (includes US 23), US 27 Grayling-St Ignace (includes US 31), US 2 St Ignace-Canada Border
I-85: US 29 Montgomery-Greensboro, US 70 Greensboro-Durham, US 15 Durham-some point near NC-VA border, US 1 from that point to Petersburg
I-95: US 1 Miami-Jacksonville, US 17 Jacksonville-N of Savannah, US 15 portions in SC, US 301 near I-26 interchange-Richmond, US 1 Richmond-Baltimore, US 40 Baltimore-Wilmington, US 13 Wilmington-Philadelphia, US 1 Philadelphia-Portland (ME), US 202 Portland-Bangor, US 2 Bangor-Canada Border.
So each one except 25 and 45 parallel/replaced a portion of an x1 US route.
Ah- I think I understand your point, that the overall layout of the x1s seem bunched up too far east. I'd bet that in 1926, though, the N-S routes lined up relatively well with the distribution of population in the US.
I checked Wikipedia for mean center of population of the US in 1920 and 1930. It moves during that time from near Spencer, IN to near Linton, IN. Those are both along US 231, so let's roughly assume the mean center of population is somewhere around Point Commerce. That spot is about 20-25 miles east of the US 41 corridor and 30 miles north of the US 50 corridor. So the layout of the US routes for x0 routes is roughly balanced north and south. The x1 routes, though, are actually imbalanced more toward the western half of the US population at the time than the eastern half.
Of course, you have the diagonal nature of US 11 and US 41 that never really made a lot of sense. And the existence of I-30 and I-45 that go against the nature of the "major cross-country" status that the x0 and x5 Interstates were supposed to have.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 25, 2021, 12:09:14 PM
Of course, you have the diagonal nature of US 11 and US 41 that never really made a lot of sense.
Long diagonals are going to violate the grid no matter what number you give them.
Quote from: 1 on March 25, 2021, 12:21:23 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 25, 2021, 12:09:14 PM
Of course, you have the diagonal nature of US 11 and US 41 that never really made a lot of sense.
Long diagonals are going to violate the grid no matter what number you give them.
Give them imaginary numbers. US i , US 5i, US 11i...
Quote from: Evan_Th on March 25, 2021, 12:39:42 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 25, 2021, 12:21:23 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 25, 2021, 12:09:14 PM
Of course, you have the diagonal nature of US 11 and US 41 that never really made a lot of sense.
Long diagonals are going to violate the grid no matter what number you give them.
Give them imaginary numbers. US i , US 5i, US 11i...
Then on Interstate highways: Ii, I5i, I11i...
Quote from: Big John on March 25, 2021, 01:20:43 PM
Quote from: Evan_Th on March 25, 2021, 12:39:42 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 25, 2021, 12:21:23 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 25, 2021, 12:09:14 PM
Of course, you have the diagonal nature of US 11 and US 41 that never really made a lot of sense.
Long diagonals are going to violate the grid no matter what number you give them.
Give them imaginary numbers. US i , US 5i, US 11i...
Then on Interstate highways: Ii, I5i, I11i...
See, now that's just confusing. It would clearly be easier to have I-√-1.
Chris
Quote from: 1 on March 25, 2021, 12:21:23 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 25, 2021, 12:09:14 PM
Of course, you have the diagonal nature of US 11 and US 41 that never really made a lot of sense.
Long diagonals are going to violate the grid no matter what number you give them.
How much of the route has to be "in-grid" then?? US 11 is out of grid for most of its route, but it fits perfectly by the time it reaches its northern terminus.
Quote from: kenarmy on March 25, 2021, 02:46:34 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 25, 2021, 12:21:23 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on March 25, 2021, 12:09:14 PM
Of course, you have the diagonal nature of US 11 and US 41 that never really made a lot of sense.
Long diagonals are going to violate the grid no matter what number you give them.
How much of the route has to be "in-grid" then?? US 11 is out of grid for most of its route, but it fits perfectly by the time it reaches its northern terminus.
Assuming the "grid" have the straight N-S and E-W routes as its base (excluding obvious oddities like I-73), for me, as long as there's a part of a diagonal route that's in the grid, it's fine. Though I know there's people in fictional that have much stricter requirements, like renumbering I-69 from Indy to Evansville as I-61 or I-63 because it's west of I-65, or swapping I-75 and I-85 south of Atlanta.
With that in mind, I-95 is pretty much only in its proper grid placement north of Boston. In relative to the straight N-S interstates, I-95 goes west of...
I-91 at New Haven
I-87 at NYC
I-83 at Baltimore
I-77 at Savannah, if you draw a straight vertical line from I-77's southern terminus down.
So in FL, I-95 is pretty much in the grid position of where I-77 is.
I think the main difference is the US grid was originally laid out over many existing roads while most of the interstate system was designed from scratch. Many states already had a system in place when the US grid was developed. The US route system also incorporated privately developed highways like the Lincoln Highway (US 30), National Road (US 40), and Dixie Highway (US 25, US 41, and others). The US grid overlaid much of what was already either in place or planned by the states. The interstate system did incorporate a few preexisting toll roads like the Oklahoma Turnpike and Indiana Toll Road along with some of the early LA freeway system, but its grid was mostly designed and built from scratch.
The interstate system has also undergone from much less modification than the US system, even excluding cases where an interstate subsumes a US route. It's far less common for an interstate being rerouted compared to how often US routes are for a number of obvious reasons; cost, stricter requirements for interstates, better system design at beginning, age of system, local interest, etc.
Despite "Defense" being in the name, the planning for interstates became more about connecting cities than bases even before the first planned interstate pavement was laid. Where interstate routes weren't planned, many states built freeways anyway (CA 99 in the Central Valley, CT 2) to connect those cities not connected by interstate. Sometimes, those highways were later added to the interstate system (WI 15 became part of I-43 and NY 17 is now mostly I 86).
If we could use fractions, I-99 could have been I-79 1/2 instead. Then it would fit the grid.
Could also use halves or quarters to get rid of east and west versions of the same number.
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 25, 2021, 02:43:05 PM
See, now that's just confusing. It would clearly be easier to have I-√-1.
That won't work since I − √− 1 = 0.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 25, 2021, 07:54:26 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on March 25, 2021, 02:43:05 PM
See, now that's just confusing. It would clearly be easier to have I-√-1.
That won't work since I − √− 1 = 0.
The fact that this thread has come to this :eyebrow:
Quote from: GaryV on March 25, 2021, 07:35:55 PM
If we could use fractions, I-99 could have been I-79 1/2 instead. Then it would fit the grid.
Could also use halves or quarters to get rid of east and west versions of the same number.
Heck some cities have numbered street alleys signed in fractions. Though not feasible to highway numbers, but living in this illogical universe it is not a bad idea to assign fractions.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 30, 2021, 03:38:35 PM
Quote from: GaryV on March 25, 2021, 07:35:55 PM
If we could use fractions, I-99 could have been I-79 1/2 instead. Then it would fit the grid.
Could also use halves or quarters to get rid of east and west versions of the same number.
Heck some cities have numbered street alleys signed in fractions. Though not feasible to highway numbers, but living in this illogical universe it is not a bad idea to assign fractions.
Grand Junction has ridiculous things like G¾ Street.
Chris
The Fall River area of Kansas has lettered county roads with fractions in between, except they don't actually use fractions. Halfway between F RD and G RD would be F 50 FD. The 50 means 0.50, or one-half. So, if your Grand Junction example were out there, it would be G 75 RD.
The best solution to diagonals that I can think of is to do what Florida does and use x00 numbers for them. Although that means you only get 9 diagonal routes, so use them wisely. Unless you want to allow US 000 or go into four digits, of course.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 30, 2021, 03:38:35 PM
Quote from: GaryV on March 25, 2021, 07:35:55 PM
If we could use fractions, I-99 could have been I-79 1/2 instead. Then it would fit the grid.
Could also use halves or quarters to get rid of east and west versions of the same number.
Heck some cities have numbered street alleys signed in fractions. Though not feasible to highway numbers, but living in this illogical universe it is not a bad idea to assign fractions.
Fractions aren't feasible route numbers? Someone tell West Virginia...
Quote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 03:51:00 PM
The Fall River area of Kansas has lettered county roads with fractions in between, except they don't actually use fractions. Halfway between F RD and G RD would be F 50 FD. The 50 means 0.50, or one-half. So, if your Grand Junction example were out there, it would be G 75 RD.
Lyon County does something similar but uses serial numbers instead of fractional numbers. So the first road between County Road R and County Road S is County Road R1, then comes R2, and so on.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 30, 2021, 04:07:19 PM
Fractions aren't feasible route numbers? Someone tell West Virginia...
I can't tell from here: is your tongue in your cheek? The state of West Virginia doesn't call those 'fractions', does it? I thought that was just a roadgeek thing.
Kalamazoo County has E-W roads named by alphabet letters. A road halfway between two of them gets both letters. E.g., U Ave, UV Ave, V Ave.
^^
greeting = HI Av
negative = NO Av
confusion = ST Av
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 30, 2021, 04:07:19 PM
The best solution to diagonals that I can think of is to do what Florida does and use x00 numbers for them. Although that means you only get 9 diagonal routes, so use them wisely. Unless you want to allow US 000 or go into four digits, of course.
The diagonal options could easily be doubled by using another XYY combo like X55 or X99. While the elongated state of Florida doesn't really need many diagonal routes, a more compact state like Ohio or South Carolina might require more. Use one XYY combo for NE-SW diagonal routes and the other XYY combo for NW-SE diagonals. A similar option would be to use all XXX triple-digit options (e.g., 222, 777) for diagonals.
First, how would you define a diagonal route? US 1 looks as diagonal as US 11 and US 79 in parts despite not many people thinking of it as a diagonal.
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 08:08:27 PM
First, how would you define a diagonal route? US 1 looks as diagonal as US 11 and US 79 in parts despite not many people thinking of it as a diagonal.
Exactly I was confused when hp described US 41 as being diagonal..
Quote from: kenarmy on March 30, 2021, 08:32:57 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 08:08:27 PM
First, how would you define a diagonal route? US 1 looks as diagonal as US 11 and US 79 in parts despite not many people thinking of it as a diagonal.
Exactly I was confused when hp described US 41 as being diagonal..
It has to be at least somewhat diagonal considering it intersects interstates 55, 65, 75, 85 and 95
Quote from: kenarmy on March 30, 2021, 08:32:57 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 08:08:27 PM
First, how would you define a diagonal route? US 1 looks as diagonal as US 11 and US 79 in parts despite not many people thinking of it as a diagonal.
Exactly I was confused when hp described US 41 as being diagonal..
By "diagonal" I mean it crosses other x1 routes. US 11 is probably the biggest offender, as it crosses 31, 41, and 21. The interstate equivalent would be 85.
There are no x0 diagonals that cross each other, either in US or Interstate categories.
Quote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:14:33 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 30, 2021, 04:07:19 PM
Fractions aren't feasible route numbers? Someone tell West Virginia...
I can't tell from here: is your tongue in your cheek? The state of West Virginia doesn't call those 'fractions', does it? I thought that was just a roadgeek thing.
No, the state doesn't call them that. They aren't even fractions in the broad definition of the term. A "denominator" is to a "numerator" in the WV county/secondary route system as a first digit is to the other two digits in a three-digit US or Interstate.
Quote from: cabiness42 on March 30, 2021, 08:39:59 PM
Quote from: kenarmy on March 30, 2021, 08:32:57 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 08:08:27 PM
First, how would you define a diagonal route? US 1 looks as diagonal as US 11 and US 79 in parts despite not many people thinking of it as a diagonal.
Exactly I was confused when hp described US 41 as being diagonal..
It has to be at least somewhat diagonal considering it intersects interstates 55, 65, 75, 85 and 95
It looks more diagonal than US 31 and US 51 for sure, but for the interstates it intersects, I-85 is out of the question for obvious reasons. I would rule out I-95 too, as it's in I-77's grid position in Florida. I-55 is diagonal in Illinois, as it took over the US 66 corridor. I-65 and I-75 are pretty close to each other for parts in the Midwest, sometimes less than 100 miles between them.
So US 41 is less diagonal than you expect taking all of those into account.
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 30, 2021, 04:07:19 PM
Fractions aren't feasible route numbers? Someone tell West Virginia...
Quote from: kphoger on March 30, 2021, 04:14:33 PM
I can't tell from here: is your tongue in your cheek? The state of West Virginia doesn't call those 'fractions', does it? I thought that was just a roadgeek thing.
Well, the WVDOH does refer to the road that I grew up on as "thirty-three over three". But yes, its just a roadgeek thing. Not sure who started it, but Marc Fannin memorialized West Virginia fractional routes in the misc.transport.road FAQ page.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on March 30, 2021, 09:01:17 PM
Well, the WVDOH does refer to the road that I grew up on as "thirty-three over three". But yes, its just a roadgeek thing. Not sure who started it, but Marc Fannin memorialized West Virginia fractional routes in the misc.transport.road FAQ page.
So would a route 32/4 simply to route 8 in WV?
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 09:04:05 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on March 30, 2021, 09:01:17 PM
Well, the WVDOH does refer to the road that I grew up on as "thirty-three over three". But yes, its just a roadgeek thing. Not sure who started it, but Marc Fannin memorialized West Virginia fractional routes in the misc.transport.road FAQ page.
So would a route 32/4 simply to route 8 in WV?
The top number is the route the county road spurs from, the bottom is what number it was assigned (ex. 60/5 Main St in Barboursville. 60 comes from US-60 and 5 is because it was the 5th route designated off of 60.
The grid is dumb anyway. Why not just make the longest routes have the lowest numbers?
Quote from: texaskdog on March 31, 2021, 12:04:03 AM
The grid is dumb anyway. Why not just make the longest routes have the lowest numbers?
So I-90 would be I-1, I-80 as I-2, I-70 as I-5, etc?
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 31, 2021, 12:47:58 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on March 31, 2021, 12:04:03 AM
The grid is dumb anyway. Why not just make the longest routes have the lowest numbers?
So I-90 would be I-1, I-80 as I-2, I-70 as I-5, etc?
sure it could be anything. then I-29 and I-49 can be the same route without anyone getting upset.
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 09:04:05 PM
So would a route 32/4 simply to route 8 in WV?
[insert West Virginia stereotype joke here]
Quote from: cabiness42 on March 30, 2021, 08:39:59 PM
Quote from: kenarmy on March 30, 2021, 08:32:57 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 08:08:27 PM
First, how would you define a diagonal route? US 1 looks as diagonal as US 11 and US 79 in parts despite not many people thinking of it as a diagonal.
Exactly I was confused when hp described US 41 as being diagonal..
It has to be at least somewhat diagonal considering it intersects interstates 55, 65, 75, 85 and 95
That's true. Maybe I never really thought of 41 as diagonal because it's straight for a much longer stretch than US 11 and US 62.
Quote from: kenarmy on March 31, 2021, 10:27:18 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on March 30, 2021, 08:39:59 PM
Quote from: kenarmy on March 30, 2021, 08:32:57 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 08:08:27 PM
First, how would you define a diagonal route? US 1 looks as diagonal as US 11 and US 79 in parts despite not many people thinking of it as a diagonal.
Exactly I was confused when hp described US 41 as being diagonal..
It has to be at least somewhat diagonal considering it intersects interstates 55, 65, 75, 85 and 95
That's true. Maybe I never really thought of 41 as diagonal because it's straight for a much longer stretch than US 11 and US 62.
Lots of it is straight but between Hopkinsville KY and Atlanta GA it's almost exactly 45 degrees diagonal.
41 is actually diagonal from Macon, GA up to Hopkinsville, KY. More so in TN than the rest. It does move over because of Lake Michigan thought and it is in its correct place in the grid north of Chicago. Though being it crosses US 31 in Nashville one could argue this particular city of where US 41 really fits.
Hey, let's switch both US 41 and 31 south of Nashville. :sombrero: :sombrero:
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 30, 2021, 09:04:05 PM
So would a route 32/4 simply to route 8 in WV?
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 09:47:32 AM
[insert West Virginia stereotype joke here]
I'm pretty sure that I resemble that remark. Except that I was pretty good at math.
Quote from: roadman65 on March 31, 2021, 10:36:17 AM
41 is actually diagonal from Macon, GA up to Hopkinsville, KY. More so in TN than the rest. It does move over because of Lake Michigan thought and it is in its correct place in the grid north of Chicago. Though being it crosses US 31 in Nashville one could argue this particular city of where US 41 really fits.
Hey, let's switch both US 41 and 31 south of Nashville. :sombrero: :sombrero:
Yeah, 41 starts at the shores of Lake Superior (the westernmost Great Lake) and, after heading south-southeastward through WI and N IL, takes a southeasterly turn into IN and stays southward until it gets into TN where it takes a more southeastwardly course which is follows (more or less) through much of GA and into N FL. Then it goes southbound again to follow the Gulf Coast only to take a perpendicular turn straight to the east and into Miami. To simplify that long description, US 41 runs north-northwest to south-southeast. It's an erratic, eventually meeting up with and ending at US 1.
US 45 is more true to it's north-south status, though it too wanders a bit off the beam.
Let's just post a map so everyone can form their own opinions without consulting an atlas.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/US_41_map.png/1920px-US_41_map.png)
Quote from: kphoger on March 31, 2021, 03:25:31 PM
Let's just post a map so everyone can form their own opinions without consulting an atlas.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/US_41_map.png/1920px-US_41_map.png)
Yep. I was going to do that too: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Copper+Harbor/Miami,+FL/@38.4140594,-92.6020061,5.77z/am=t/data=!4m73!4m72!1m60!1m1!1s0x4d5a83ab442ba0eb:0xca056ee77d4c790c!2m2!1d-87.8903203!2d47.4683113!3m4!1m2!1d-87.3936589!2d46.5406417!3s0x4d4e20997a7e036d:0x344c4492b479a709!3m4!1m2!1d-86.9722459!2d45.9687124!3s0x4d4dc59a182afcff:0x47ea13b56ca58891!3m4!1m2!1d-87.5221021!2d45.694289!3s0x4d5279add452c415:0xaf5356ade6165ad5!3m4!1m2!1d-87.6117743!2d45.1569069!3s0x4d52a5d2249615c7:0xaa0eefc71a0e228c!3m4!1m2!1d-88.5370327!2d44.1013523!3s0x8803c1b2b2c21a07:0xdefde7d16b0f0b91!3m4!1m2!1d-87.9027398!2d42.376846!3s0x880f8d87d3a5d101:0x34547952a682efa6!3m4!1m2!1d-87.862521!2d42.251419!3s0x880f9528defcedaf:0x7a8d492f2eb46e72!3m4!1m2!1d-87.65309!2d41.9840446!3s0x880fd179fe8c50f1:0x279b45dd2432ebd9!3m4!1m2!1d-87.451812!2d37.976445!3s0x886e2c998edc555b:0xd4c30632ac1cf4f1!3m4!1m2!1d-82.0119!2d26.9152358!3s0x88db58443f475abf:0x2bc773b0ae2c599c!3m4!1m2!1d-81.336598!2d25.901569!3s0x88da44ca8a9b6c8d:0xf5f3a0715f0cc63!1m5!1m1!1s0x88d9b0a20ec8c111:0xff96f271ddad4f65!2m2!1d-80.1917902!2d25.7616798!3e0!6m3!1i0!2i1!3i22
1,990 miles Google maps got to the point where it wouldn't let me move the route onto 41 through the south side of Chicago because I'd apparently gone beyond their limit for route diversions.
Just remember that straight south from Copper Harbor, MI is roughly New Orleans, LA. And Miami is an awful lot of miles east of there.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's likely that since the US route system originated in the '20's and '30's, and wasn't even (almost) fully paved until after WWII, the rationale for "oddball" composite routes such as US 41 was simply for navigational purposes -- connecting areas where (a) people lived and (b) wanted to go for recreational purposes (remember, this was for the most part during the Depression and before air travel became commonplace). For most of the U.S. east of the Mississippi River, (b) meant Florida. So US 41 simply functioned as a normal "grid" route until it hit the KY/TN state line, then struck off in a southeasterly direction, collecting traffic from Nashville and Atlanta along the way, and (originally) winding up in Naples, FL before subsuming original US 94 and shunting across the Everglades to Miami (Beach). Windy, rainy/snowy Chicago to sunny Miami -- that was obviously the brief. Curiously, US 43 essentially follows the trajectory of the N-S main portion of US 41; if not for the desire for a singly-signed Chicago-to-Florida corridor, US 41 might well have joined US 31 and US 45 with a Mobile southern terminus. Instead it ended up being celebrated in Allman Brothers lyrics as the N-S backbone of GA!
^ probably the same case as US 66 then; relatively straight E-W from LA to OKC, then goes northeast to Tulsa, St Louis and Chicago.
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 31, 2021, 05:06:53 PM
^ probably the same case as US 66 then; relatively straight E-W from LA to OKC, then goes northeast to Tulsa, St Louis and Chicago.
Same difference, but with Bobby Troup music & lyrics! :cool:
I just feel old remembering when US 10 went to Washington, US 27 into Michigan, and US 141 went to Milwaukee(and when I-43 was Wis 15 by Beloit)
I also wore an onion on my belt, which was a style at the time.......
Quote from: sparker on March 31, 2021, 04:44:13 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's likely that since the US route system originated in the '20's and '30's, and wasn't even (almost) fully paved until after WWII, the rationale for "oddball" composite routes such as US 41 was simply for navigational purposes -- connecting areas where (a) people lived and (b) wanted to go for recreational purposes (remember, this was for the most part during the Depression and before air travel became commonplace). For most of the U.S. east of the Mississippi River, (b) meant Florida. So US 41 simply functioned as a normal "grid" route until it hit the KY/TN state line, then struck off in a southeasterly direction, collecting traffic from Nashville and Atlanta along the way, and (originally) winding up in Naples, FL before subsuming original US 94 and shunting across the Everglades to Miami (Beach). Windy, rainy/snowy Chicago to sunny Miami -- that was obviously the brief. Curiously, US 43 essentially follows the trajectory of the N-S main portion of US 41; if not for the desire for a singly-signed Chicago-to-Florida corridor, US 41 might well have joined US 31 and US 45 with a Mobile southern terminus. Instead it ended up being celebrated in Allman Brothers lyrics as the N-S backbone of GA!
I remember when I-75 ended at the Tampa/St. Pete metro, and what is now I-275 was I-75. Was the extension southward and then across the existing Alligator Alley to Miami always planned, or a later addition to the interstate system?
Quote from: hbelkins on March 31, 2021, 09:42:07 PM
I remember when I-75 ended at the Tampa/St. Pete metro, and what is now I-275 was I-75. Was the extension southward and then across the existing Alligator Alley to Miami always planned, or a later addition to the interstate system?
I was living in Jacksonville (Florida, of course) when construction on Alligator Alley ramped up. Having relatives down there, I was always under the impression that I-75 down to Naples was planned earlier than the Miami extension. (After all, there was already a similar length route between Tampa and Miami using I-4 and the Turnpike). However, everything that I've ever seen looks like the original plan for the I-75 extension in the mid-1960s was heading for Miami.
And such a waste that was. There is really not that much traffic going from Miami heading to Tampa that way that wasn't already well covered by existing highways.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on April 01, 2021, 07:24:58 AM
And such a waste that was. There is really not that much traffic going from Miami heading to Tampa that way that wasn't already well covered by existing highways.
Sarasota, North Port, Port Charlotte, Cape Coral, Fort Myers, Lehigh Acres...
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on April 01, 2021, 07:24:58 AM
And such a waste that was. There is really not that much traffic going from Miami heading to Tampa that way that wasn't already well covered by existing highways.
(https://i.imgur.com/FZVI47b.png)
that doesn't include the tourists btw
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on April 01, 2021, 07:24:58 AM
And such a waste that was. There is really not that much traffic going from Miami heading to Tampa that way that wasn't already well covered by existing highways.
I don't know about that. The AADT of I-75 through the Everglades is about 26,000, which seems a bit much for the two-lane US-41.
Quote from: hbelkins on March 31, 2021, 09:42:07 PM
Quote from: sparker on March 31, 2021, 04:44:13 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's likely that since the US route system originated in the '20's and '30's, and wasn't even (almost) fully paved until after WWII, the rationale for "oddball" composite routes such as US 41 was simply for navigational purposes -- connecting areas where (a) people lived and (b) wanted to go for recreational purposes (remember, this was for the most part during the Depression and before air travel became commonplace). For most of the U.S. east of the Mississippi River, (b) meant Florida. So US 41 simply functioned as a normal "grid" route until it hit the KY/TN state line, then struck off in a southeasterly direction, collecting traffic from Nashville and Atlanta along the way, and (originally) winding up in Naples, FL before subsuming original US 94 and shunting across the Everglades to Miami (Beach). Windy, rainy/snowy Chicago to sunny Miami -- that was obviously the brief. Curiously, US 43 essentially follows the trajectory of the N-S main portion of US 41; if not for the desire for a singly-signed Chicago-to-Florida corridor, US 41 might well have joined US 31 and US 45 with a Mobile southern terminus. Instead it ended up being celebrated in Allman Brothers lyrics as the N-S backbone of GA!
I remember when I-75 ended at the Tampa/St. Pete metro, and what is now I-275 was I-75. Was the extension southward and then across the existing Alligator Alley to Miami always planned, or a later addition to the interstate system?
I-75 south of Tampa/St. Pete was one of the corridors included in the 1968 1500-mile batch of chargeable route additions. Originally 4500 miles or new routes, defense policy events of early 1968 caused the legislation to be pared down by two-thirds; the Florida extension was one of the survivors.