AARoads Forum

Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2010, 02:03:21 AM
EDIT: And here's a fantasy sign based on if much more of the Los Angeles freeway system was built as planned:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg180.imageshack.us%2Fimg180%2F3171%2F66b.png&hash=2965340db826117b689a4a2ff96d363aeafaa0fa)

just a few very small quibbles.

Cal 258 didn't exist at the same time as outline-shield US routes (I think the Whitnall would've been CA-64 if signed in the early 60s), and I think Cal Div Hwys signed state routes as "Cal. XXX" or "State XXX" instead of "Hwy XXX".  I just saw a sign that said "JUNCTION/CAL. 190" from 1958 that came off US-99, and a 1958 signing manual I've seen had "State XXX".

Also, you're using a 1961-spec shield shape for US-66, but that shield style only appeared in white-background form, starting in 1962 in California.  The 1958-spec outline shield you are looking for is this one:

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19580151i1.jpg)

I also do not know if CA did mixed-case and all-caps on the same sign.  As far as I know, they had all-caps on side-mounted signs and mixed-case on overheads until 1958, when they switched over to mixed-case in both contexts.  

oh, and make the sign black :sombrero:

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2010, 10:22:44 AM

just a few very small quibbles.

Cal 258 didn't exist at the same time as outline-shield US routes (I think the Whitnall would've been CA-64 if signed in the early 60s)

IIRC, both 64 and 258 are post-1964 numbers, with the middle section of the route (from today's Route 2/101 junction paralleling 5 and 101/170 to the 170/5 junction) being canceled around that time period...I don't recall a route number (besides the LRN) being assigned for it at any point in the 1950s.

(For that matter, Route 170 did not exist as a numbered designation until 1964, either, with much of that route being LRN 159.  I remember reading some unsubstantiated rumor that 170 was going to be part of a US 6 reroute but I can't say that for sure - it would've made sense though as it would bypass the Pasadena Freeway.)

Quote from: agentsteel53
, and I think Cal Div Hwys signed state routes as "Cal. XXX" or "State XXX" instead of "Hwy XXX".  I just saw a sign that said "JUNCTION/CAL. 190" from 1958 that came off US-99, and a 1958 signing manual I've seen had "State XXX".

oh, and make the sign black :sombrero:

Thanks!  I do wonder when green first started being predominant - the Interstate era?

Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2010, 10:35:33 AM

IIRC, both 64 and 258 are post-1964 numbers

I do know that LRN 64 was out in the desert, along the US-60/70 corridor:

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19220641i1.jpg)

yep, that is a signed LRN!  (And an Arizona milepost, so don't get too excited  :pan: )

I wonder if that deviated enough from US-60/70 to cover the Whitnall Freeway much further inland.  Also I wonder what signed route number they'd have assigned it - likely not 257, as they consciously didn't exceed route number 198* until 1964.

(*okay, two exceptions - 1934 routes 440 and 740, but those were branches of 44 and 74, respectively)

Quote(For that matter, Route 170 did not exist as a numbered designation until 1964, either, with much of that route being LRN 159.  I remember reading some unsubstantiated rumor that 170 was going to be part of a US 6 reroute but I can't say that for sure - it would've made sense though as it would bypass the Pasadena Freeway.)

I certainly did not know that!  It does explain the 170 patches on 1959-1961 guide signs on I-5 southbound.  I'd thought they covered up white-spade 170 markers, but they must cover up something else - likely it is empty under the 1964-spec outline shield 170 shield, but if it's not empty, it would be great to know what number is under there!

QuoteThanks!  I do wonder when green first started being predominant - the Interstate era?

September, 1959, is the earliest green spec sheet I have.  Thanks to the indomitable JN Winkler, who sent me 350 pages (!) of 1950s and 1960s California layout sheets!  :sombrero:

(it seems in general California took about a year or two to adopt federal standards that it chose to adopt ... they switched to AASHO 1957-spec green signs in Sept '59, and they switched to AASHO 1961-spec white route shields, as opposed to outline shields, in August '62.)

there are black spec sheets as late as 1962, and I have seen two black signs for "El Camino Real", both of which are 1961.  I do not know what contexts got black, and what got green, as all freeway signs, and some non-freeway signs were green as early as 1959.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2010, 11:54:53 AM

Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2010, 10:35:33 AM

IIRC, both 64 and 258 are post-1964 numbers

I do know that LRN 64 was out in the desert, along the US-60/70 corridor:

yep, that is a signed LRN!  (And an Arizona milepost, so don't get too excited  :pan: )

Wow!  Is this the only known example?  My guess for the likeliest place for another LRN being noted in the field would be LRN 2, otherwise known as US 101.

Quote from: agentsteel53

I wonder if that deviated enough from US-60/70 to cover the Whitnall Freeway much further inland.  Also I wonder what signed route number they'd have assigned it - likely not 257, as they consciously didn't exceed route number 198* until 1964.

(*okay, two exceptions - 1934 routes 440 and 740, but those were branches of 44 and 74, respectively)

Looking at Dan Faigin's cahighways.org, LRN 265 applied to the post-1964 Route 64 segment of the Whitnall Freeway, while the Route 258/Western Avenue freeway was not officially proposed at the state level until 1965.
http://cahighways.org/265-272.html#LR265
http://cahighways.org/257-264.html#258

It however was on ACSC planning maps as early as 1947, as the "Normandie Freeway" along Normandie Avenue -
http://cahighways.org/maps/1947-la-acsc.jpg

LRN 64 was a very odd mix of signed routes: Route 74/one-time 740, part of Route 195 (including the pre-1970s east-west segment), and then US 60/70 (now I-10).
http://cahighways.org/057-064.html#064

Quote from: agentsteel53

Quote(For that matter, Route 170 did not exist as a numbered designation until 1964, either, with much of that route being LRN 159.  I remember reading some unsubstantiated rumor that 170 was going to be part of a US 6 reroute but I can't say that for sure - it would've made sense though as it would bypass the Pasadena Freeway.)

I certainly did not know that!  It does explain the 170 patches on 1959-1961 guide signs on I-5 southbound.  I'd thought they covered up white-spade 170 markers, but they must cover up something else - likely it is empty under the 1964-spec outline shield 170 shield, but if it's not empty, it would be great to know what number is under there!

If 170 didn't exist as a route number until 1964 - and considering it is an even-numbered north-south route (which did not exist for the most part in the 1934-1964 system) - white shields couldn't have been present, though I don't think a US highway shield's "peaks" would be hidden by a state shield, and don't remember seeing that at all.  I HAVE also heard (but can't confirm) that the Pomona Freeway had, at one time, US 60 shields greened out before the route opened and covered up with (State) Route 60 signage, much like at the eastern end of the Moreno Valley Freeway.

Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2010, 12:13:17 PM

Wow!  Is this the only known example?  My guess for the likeliest place for another LRN being noted in the field would be LRN 2, otherwise known as US 101.

only example I've ever seen.

QuoteI don't think a US highway shield's "peaks" would be hidden by a state shield, and don't remember seeing that at all.

it seemed to me like the patches are big enough to hide an older US shield.  these are small shields; as they appear on advance-mileage signs for the next three exits.  the signs with larger shields at the intersection itself do not have patches.

they're this style of shield

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19580061i1.jpg)

(incidentally, that sign is still around!  it now says "110", though, for both freeways)

QuoteI HAVE also heard (but can't confirm) that the Pomona Freeway had, at one time, US 60 shields greened out before the route opened and covered up with (State) Route 60 signage, much like at the eastern end of the Moreno Valley Freeway.

I have no idea.  I'm a bit confused about the history of route 60 through the area; for example, I-10 (San Bernardino Fwy) was once signed as US-60.  Here is a 1955-57 sign (note the logos on both black signs) in a 1958 photo.  

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19550601i1.jpg)

and here is a 1963 photo, with a sign whose spec I do not know.  Definitely after 1959, and possibly as early as 1960, but maybe as late as 1963.  (Ramona Fwy was renamed to San Bernardino Fwy in 1959, I think.)

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19620701i1.jpg)

there is a 60 patch at the east LA interchange on 5 southbound - the entire third row on the advance-exit sign is patched, not just the shield, implying to me that possibly the freeway was renamed as well as renumbered.

so I do not know when US-60 was moved from the Ramona/San Berdoo Fwy to the Pomona Fwy (and, at the same time, to the Moreno Valley Fwy?)

in fact, I believe the sign that is patched (to have a CA-60 shield on the last line) is the one in the distance in that last photo!

I cannot make out the third line, but the second line is Santa Monica Fwy, with no number.  The first line is Soto St, and the third ... any idea??

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2010, 12:47:27 PM

QuoteI don't think a US highway shield's "peaks" would be hidden by a state shield, and don't remember seeing that at all.

it seemed to me like the patches are big enough to hide an older US shield.  these are small shields; as they appear on advance-mileage signs for the next three exits.  the signs with larger shields at the intersection itself do not have patches.

they're this style of shield

(incidentally, that sign is still around!  it now says "110", though, for both freeways)

I do remember seeing that - and a few other vintage signs - near the Four-Level in February.  (The signage in that area is fascinating, not only due to the US route history of the junction, which included Route 66, but also due to the lack of clarity whether all of the Harbor Freeway is part of Interstate 110 or not, which seems to have been improved somewhat in the last two years.)

Quote from: agentsteel53

QuoteI HAVE also heard (but can't confirm) that the Pomona Freeway had, at one time, US 60 shields greened out before the route opened and covered up with (State) Route 60 signage, much like at the eastern end of the Moreno Valley Freeway.

I have no idea.  I'm a bit confused about the history of route 60 through the area; for example, I-10 (San Bernardino Fwy) was once signed as US-60.  Here is a 1955-57 sign (note the logos on both black signs) in a 1958 photo.  

and here is a 1963 photo, with a sign whose spec I do not know.  Definitely after 1959, and possibly as early as 1960, but maybe as late as 1963.  (Ramona Fwy was renamed to San Bernardino Fwy in 1959, I think.)



there is a 60 patch at the east LA interchange on 5 southbound - the entire third row on the advance-exit sign is patched, not just the shield, implying to me that possibly the freeway was renamed as well as renumbered.

so I do not know when US-60 was moved from the Ramona/San Berdoo Fwy to the Pomona Fwy (and, at the same time, to the Moreno Valley Fwy?)

Based on historical maps, here's the chronology, which involves many reroutings:

1933: http://members.cox.net/mkpl2/hist/droz-laca33n.jpg
US 99 follows US 66 east of Pasadena to San Bernardino; it is unclear if 99's routing followed then-future Route 118, today's I-210, in the Sunland area, or if 99 continued to downtown Los Angeles.

US 60 followed today's Valley Boulevard from east of Los Angeles through Puente and Walnut to Pomona, on a corridor that partially parallels I-10 and partially actually is much closer to the Pomona Freeway alignment, past El Monte.  (However, the Garvey Avenue corridor - which more closely follows today's I-10 - was under construction at the time to provide a more direct route towards Pomona.)

1936: http://www.cosmos-monitor.com/ca/map1936/detail/san-bernardino.html
http://www.cosmos-monitor.com/ca/map1936/detail/la-detail.html
US 70 is introduced...but not quite on the routing that it would take for most of its life in the Inland Empire.  It did follow US 60 and US 99 along the Garvey Avenue pathway eastward, but then followed US 60 through Pomona and Riverside (including the concurrency with then-US 395 between Riverside and Moreno Valley) eastward to Beaumont.  US 99 ran alone east of Pomona along today's I-10 corridor, before rejoining 60 and 70 in Beaumont.

1941: http://members.cox.net/mkpl5/hist2/LA-1941.jpg

No real changes to the LA-area routing here, along Garvey.

1955: http://members.cox.net/mkpl2/hist/map-ca1955-ssw.jpg
Not clear when the shift of 70 from the 60 path through Riverside, to the 99/today's 10 path through San Bernardino occurred, though it was some time between 1936 and 1955.

1959: http://www.cahighways.org/maps/1959rmn.jpg
San Bernardino Freeway name in place for US 60/70/99 from Los Angeles to Pomona, with 60 continuing to begin its southerly trek towards Riverside in Pomona (as opposed to beginning it today in Los Angeles) and 70/99 having a business route along Holt Avenue.

1963: http://www.cahighways.org/maps/1963routes.jpg
Although 60/70/99 still run concurrent (along with I-10, which is not noted on this map), the Pomona Freeway paralleling Valley Boulevard is shown as under construction.

Quote from: agentsteel53in fact, I believe the sign that is patched (to have a CA-60 shield on the last line) is the one in the distance in that last photo!

I cannot make out the third line, but the second line is Santa Monica Fwy, with no number.  The first line is Soto St, and the third ... any idea??

 Here's what it looks like today - note that the first line is for Fourth Street, and the third line has greenout for "Pomona Fwy/Route 60":
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Monterey+Park&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=46.677964,78.662109&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Monterey+Park,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.057877,-118.214393&spn=0,0.009602&z=17&layer=c&cbll=34.057748,-118.214381&panoid=JiTOA9Ma6Ey6wD2sjAGEYg&cbp=12,185.3,,0,7.61

I can't tell in the older photo if that third line had an outline US 60 shield, though I would be far from surprised if that was it.

Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2010, 01:25:25 PM

I do remember seeing that - and a few other vintage signs - near the Four-Level in February.  (The signage in that area is fascinating, not only due to the US route history of the junction, which included Route 66, but also due to the lack of clarity whether all of the Harbor Freeway is part of Interstate 110 or not, which seems to have been improved somewhat in the last two years.)

I thought it switched designation just a bit south of the four-level, with a few erroneous I-110 shields north of that switch.  I do not remember exactly where the switch is.

Quote1963: http://www.cahighways.org/maps/1963routes.jpg
Although 60/70/99 still run concurrent (along with I-10, which is not noted on this map), the Pomona Freeway paralleling Valley Boulevard is shown as under construction.

that must be just before that freeway section opened, with US-60 getting rerouted onto it.  I think the existence of the sign showing only US 70/99 on the San Berdoo implies that 60 was on the new freeway as a US highway in 1963, before getting switched to CA-60 in 1964.

This means that the 1963 photo has an erroneous sign: the one in the background should have a 60 shield.  It's gotta be somewhere, and if it's not 70/99...

but I do not believe there is an outline 60 on that sign.  I can't verify that, but it looks to be just letters to me, referring to the older surface street.

I cannot tell if the foreground sign has a scraped-off 60.  The sign is at most 4 years old in the picture, and likely newer*, and therefore wouldn't have had time to build up a residue of dust and grime on which the missing 60 shield would be visible.  

(I say likely newer because that style of non-porcelain sign entered heavy use in 1963, with a single set of 1960 examples being the only older ones I know of - and, as far as I know, no black signs were made of that style.)

So the foreground sign is either (likely) a brand new 1963 sign with 10/70 the only shields it ever had - or it once had a scraped off 60 as well.

QuoteHere's what it looks like today - note that the first line is for Fourth Street, and the third line has greenout for "Pomona Fwy/Route 60":

oops, Fourth, not Soto.  I misremembered.  Silly me; I saw the sign three days ago.  Okay, I was doing 90mph  :sombrero:

QuoteI can't tell in the older photo if that third line had an outline US 60 shield, though I would be far from surprised if that was it.

I do not believe so.  It would've been a white US-60 shield, if the number was put on between August, 1962 and April, 1964 (which is likely when the freeway opened) - and Div Hwys used the latest spec (hit or miss :-D).  

that implies the sign was patched twice in very rapid succession.  First, to change the surface street (as seen in the '63 photo) to "Pomona Fwy [60]" (with a US shield), and then, around April, 1964, the replacement of the US shield with a state shield.  If the US-60 shield were a separate piece of white porcelain (probable), as opposed to just being printed white, then the second replacement wasn't a patch.  Instead, they unscrewed the US-60 shield and put up a CA-60.  

On Monday, I saw no evidence of there ever being a US-60 shield on the patch, but, again, I was doing 90.  Furthermore, if the patch was there only a few months, then it would've have developed a wear pattern.  But, I do believe there was one, because US-60 had to be signed somewhere.

(Unless of course they plain old forgot for a while, and put the Pomona Fwy SR-60 patch on only after April, 1964.)

So now the question remains - what is under the patch?  The '63 map doesn't identify that road by name, and the sign does not look like it says "Valley Boulevard" (or any Boulevard at all) - so I'd be interested to know what it does say.

I will have to email that photo to a friend of mine who could answer the "where's US-60" question.

the more I look at it, there's something odd about the Santa Monica Fwy (2nd line) of the distant sign.  It looks to me like they moved the letters closer together to squeeze in the I-10 shield.

which implies that the sign is not the current one, since you can't move letters around like that on porcelain, and the current sign is unpatched. 

The current sign is very very similar, and I have no idea what year it is (have never gone through there slowly enough to check!) but it can't be the same one.  It must be a '63 or '64, given that it got patched with a SR-60 in 1964, and wasn't there in 1963.

maybe that answers the "where's US-60" question.  The sign in the foreground was just installed, and the sign in the background had yet to be replaced to reflect the new freeway. 

the question then becomes - why patch over "Pomona Fwy" on the 1963-64, and not just switch the US-60 to a CA-60?

someone want to walk up to that sign and take a look at the date stamp?  :-D

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2010, 02:21:46 PM

Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2010, 01:25:25 PM

I do remember seeing that - and a few other vintage signs - near the Four-Level in February.  (The signage in that area is fascinating, not only due to the US route history of the junction, which included Route 66, but also due to the lack of clarity whether all of the Harbor Freeway is part of Interstate 110 or not, which seems to have been improved somewhat in the last two years.)

I thought it switched designation just a bit south of the four-level, with a few erroneous I-110 shields north of that switch.  I do not remember exactly where the switch is.

Officially, the Interstate ends at I-10, and State Route 110 begins there.  But this has to be tempered by CalTrans's precedent of inconsistency in the Bay Area - I-80 along old US 40/50 west of the Embarcadero was removed off of the Interstate system in 1968 (when the extension west of US 101 to Route 1 in Golden Gate Park was canceled), but has never been signed as "State Route 80."  (That freeway, the San Francisco Skyway, was built right before the Interstate era started, but was definitely signed I-80/US 40/US 50 from the start - I've seen one photo of that concurrency on trailblazers.)

Northbound, the Harbor Freeway north of I-10 is signed as Route 110.

Southbound past the Four-Level, not only is it almost entirely signed as I-110 (save for two signs on a collector/distributor series of ramps), the signage off of US 101 dating back to the late 80s I think has acknowledged the Harbor Freeway in its entirety (including the downtown segment) as I-110, and the 2008 signage update has also noted the I-110 south designation (rather than Route 110 south).  The I-110 signage doesn't begin until one has passed through the Four-Level (and the freeway has changed names), as demonstrated here:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Los+Angeles&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=34.724817,70.3125&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.064823,-118.245501&spn=0,0.004292&z=18&layer=c&cbll=34.064861,-118.245329&panoid=444nb94L7O4JfAdZQqF-EQ&cbp=12,262.27,,0,5.79 - Route 110 south in the final segment of the Pasadena Freeway, before the ramps

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Los+Angeles&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=34.724817,70.3125&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.058215,-118.253966&spn=0.002235,0.004292&z=18&layer=c&cbll=34.058139,-118.254043&panoid=40aye81owAZ2YIJr2vF7IQ&cbp=12,246.59,,0,8.49 - I-110 south at the first exit for the Harbor Freeway after US 101

Google Maps tends to show the Harbor Freeway in its entirety as I-110.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2010, 02:21:46 PM

Quote1963: http://www.cahighways.org/maps/1963routes.jpg
Although 60/70/99 still run concurrent (along with I-10, which is not noted on this map), the Pomona Freeway paralleling Valley Boulevard is shown as under construction.

that must be just before that freeway section opened, with US-60 getting rerouted onto it.  I think the existence of the sign showing only US 70/99 on the San Berdoo implies that 60 was on the new freeway as a US highway in 1963, before getting switched to CA-60 in 1964.

This means that the 1963 photo has an erroneous sign: the one in the background should have a 60 shield.  It's gotta be somewhere, and if it's not 70/99...

but I do not believe there is an outline 60 on that sign.  I can't verify that, but it looks to be just letters to me, referring to the older surface street.

I'm not sure there was an older surface street though on that line - looking at late-1950s maps of the area, the Golden State Freeway segment that was only I-5/I-10 (and never US 99) wasn't constructed until the early 1960s, by which point the Pomona Freeway was already being built:
http://www.scvresources.com/highways/east_los_angeles_interchange.htm

I could be wrong though, just hard to tell with the background sign only slightly readable.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2010, 02:21:46 PM

I cannot tell if the foreground sign has a scraped-off 60.  The sign is at most 4 years old in the picture, and likely newer*, and therefore wouldn't have had time to build up a residue of dust and grime on which the missing 60 shield would be visible.  

(I say likely newer because that style of non-porcelain sign entered heavy use in 1963, with a single set of 1960 examples being the only older ones I know of - and, as far as I know, no black signs were made of that style.)

So the foreground sign is either (likely) a brand new 1963 sign with 10/70 the only shields it ever had - or it once had a scraped off 60 as well.

There IS definitely room for a scraped-off 60 on there, but if so, there'd be some evidence of glue residue I would think (as I have seen in person for a scraped off I-80 shield at the US 50 junction with 65th Street in Sacramento).

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2010, 02:21:46 PM
I do not believe so.  It would've been a white US-60 shield, if the number was put on between August, 1962 and April, 1964 (which is likely when the freeway opened) - and Div Hwys used the latest spec (hit or miss :-D).  

that implies the sign was patched twice in very rapid succession.  First, to change the surface street (as seen in the '63 photo) to "Pomona Fwy [60]" (with a US shield), and then, around April, 1964, the replacement of the US shield with a state shield.  If the US-60 shield were a separate piece of white porcelain (probable), as opposed to just being printed white, then the second replacement wasn't a patch.  Instead, they unscrewed the US-60 shield and put up a CA-60.  

On Monday, I saw no evidence of there ever being a US-60 shield on the patch, but, again, I was doing 90.  Furthermore, if the patch was there only a few months, then it would've have developed a wear pattern.  But, I do believe there was one, because US-60 had to be signed somewhere.

(Unless of course they plain old forgot for a while, and put the Pomona Fwy SR-60 patch on only after April, 1964.)

So now the question remains - what is under the patch?  The '63 map doesn't identify that road by name, and the sign does not look like it says "Valley Boulevard" (or any Boulevard at all) - so I'd be interested to know what it does say.

I will have to email that photo to a friend of mine who could answer the "where's US-60" question.

Valley Boulevard at that area is already much more parallel to today's I-10 than to the Pomona Freeway, so that couldn't be it.  Soto Street IS the next exit after the Pomona Freeway ramp, but looking at the vintage photo, it seems like that's way too short to have been the legend...

Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2010, 02:53:33 PM
Officially, the Interstate ends at I-10, and State Route 110 begins there.  But this has to be tempered by CalTrans's precedent of inconsistency in the Bay Area - I-80 along old US 40/50 west of the Embarcadero was removed off of the Interstate system in 1968 (when the extension west of US 101 to Route 1 in Golden Gate Park was canceled), but has never been signed as "State Route 80."  (That freeway, the San Francisco Skyway, was built right before the Interstate era started, but was definitely signed I-80/US 40/US 50 from the start - I've seen one photo of that concurrency on trailblazers.)

I am not sure which segment of fwy you refer to.  I was just there this last weekend, and it looks to me like I-80 is signed as such from the 101.  Do you mean that this section is not actually I-80?

also, do you have the photo with 80/40/50?

(there is, incidentally, a gantry on the Bay Bridge westbound, immediately after the on-ramp from Treasure Island, that is shaped the right way, and rusty enough, to have once held an 80/40/50 shield set)

QuoteI'm not sure there was an older surface street though on that line - looking at late-1950s maps of the area, the Golden State Freeway segment that was only I-5/I-10 (and never US 99) wasn't constructed until the early 1960s, by which point the Pomona Freeway was already being built:
http://www.scvresources.com/highways/east_los_angeles_interchange.htm

from that page:

QuoteConnections to SR-60 have been built but aren't in use. They won't be until 1965. The ramps to I-10 opened in 1962.

so maybe the patch is from 1965.  As for the I-10 ramps opening in 1962: that must be the Santa Monica Fwy, and so that third sign in the 1963 picture must be a 1962 sign - though, interestingly, with the freeway un-numbered.  

if the 60 freeway opened in 1965, then the question is, why is US-60 not signed along the San Bernardino Fwy in 1963?  

QuoteThere IS definitely room for a scraped-off 60 on there, but if so, there'd be some evidence of glue residue I would think (as I have seen in person for a scraped off I-80 shield at the US 50 junction with 65th Street in Sacramento).

it all depends on whether the shield was glued, or bolted on.  If it is bolts/rivets, then the resolution of the photo is insufficient to see the holes - and, since the sign is so new, there wouldn't be any dirt/grime evidence, as there is, say, at the Laval Road exit on I-5, where a riveted-on US-99 shield can be seen on a 1963 I-5 guide sign.

interestingly, despite it being 1963, the US-99 shield was an outline.  Good old Cal Div Hwys not using their own new specs.

QuoteValley Boulevard at that area is already much more parallel to today's I-10 than to the Pomona Freeway, so that couldn't be it.  Soto Street IS the next exit after the Pomona Freeway ramp, but looking at the vintage photo, it seems like that's way too short to have been the legend...

furthermore, Soto Street is not the exact same mileage as the Santa Monica Fwy - so what was under there must correspond to what exits where CA-60 exits today.

was CA-60 opened only in 1965 as Mike Ballard's site says?  

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2010, 03:03:46 PM

I am not sure which segment of fwy you refer to.  I was just there this last weekend, and it looks to me like I-80 is signed as such from the 101.  Do you mean that this section is not actually I-80?

Interstate 80 (as signed) from US 101 to the Bay Bridge is officially not in the interstate system (just as Interstate 10 on the San Bernardino Freeway from I-5 to US 101 is "officially" not an interstate either, though in that case it was a one-time I-110 from 1965-1968).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_80_in_California#West_end_in_San_Francisco

I've always felt this was a clerical error (that has never been corrected) from the legislative end, as most of the removal of the "Interstate" status on signed I-80 west of the Embarcadero was part of the move to take the Western Freeway segment off of active planning, due to the freeway revolt.  (This then also suggests a followup question: was the Central Freeway, when built, constructed as I-80/US 101 as opposed to just US 101?  The Central was part of the I-80 route until the 1968 changes truncated it to its current western terminus.)

Quote from: agentsteel53
also, do you have the photo with 80/40/50?

I'll check around - it may have been in one of the official California Div Highways publications of the day.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2010, 03:03:46 PM
(there is, incidentally, a gantry on the Bay Bridge westbound, immediately after the on-ramp from Treasure Island, that is shaped the right way, and rusty enough, to have once held an 80/40/50 shield set)

I'll probably be driving through there tonight so I'll be on the lookout for it...

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2010, 03:03:46 PM

QuoteI'm not sure there was an older surface street though on that line - looking at late-1950s maps of the area, the Golden State Freeway segment that was only I-5/I-10 (and never US 99) wasn't constructed until the early 1960s, by which point the Pomona Freeway was already being built:
http://www.scvresources.com/highways/east_los_angeles_interchange.htm

from that page:

QuoteConnections to SR-60 have been built but aren't in use. They won't be until 1965. The ramps to I-10 opened in 1962.

so maybe the patch is from 1965.  As for the I-10 ramps opening in 1962: that must be the Santa Monica Fwy, and so that third sign in the 1963 picture must be a 1962 sign - though, interestingly, with the freeway un-numbered.  

if the 60 freeway opened in 1965, then the question is, why is US-60 not signed along the San Bernardino Fwy in 1963?  

That is what I'm wondering as well - it could be as simple as CalTrans anticipating the reroute of US 60 to the Pomona routing, before the 1964 renumbering did occur, or it could even  hint at a temporary surface street routing, though I'm not sure that would be the case there.

What that photo doesn't show, however, is what the San Bernardino Freeway mainline signage itself was like.

This photo at Cameron Kaiser's site - http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/395/xtra/town2.jpg - does show another example of the I-10/US 70/US 99 concurrency (albeit with US 70/99 shields removed by the 1968 photo date), this time signed off of then-US 395 (now I-215) in southern San Bernardino.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2010, 03:03:46 PM

QuoteThere IS definitely room for a scraped-off 60 on there, but if so, there'd be some evidence of glue residue I would think (as I have seen in person for a scraped off I-80 shield at the US 50 junction with 65th Street in Sacramento).

it all depends on whether the shield was glued, or bolted on.  If it is bolts/rivets, then the resolution of the photo is insufficient to see the holes - and, since the sign is so new, there wouldn't be any dirt/grime evidence, as there is, say, at the Laval Road exit on I-5, where a riveted-on US-99 shield can be seen on a 1963 I-5 guide sign.

interestingly, despite it being 1963, the US-99 shield was an outline.  Good old Cal Div Hwys not using their own new specs.

QuoteValley Boulevard at that area is already much more parallel to today's I-10 than to the Pomona Freeway, so that couldn't be it.  Soto Street IS the next exit after the Pomona Freeway ramp, but looking at the vintage photo, it seems like that's way too short to have been the legend...

furthermore, Soto Street is not the exact same mileage as the Santa Monica Fwy - so what was under there must correspond to what exits where CA-60 exits today.

was CA-60 opened only in 1965 as Mike Ballard's site says?  

That, I'm not sure:  according to Cahighways, the Valley Boulevard route/future Pomona Freeway corridor had existed as a LRN in 1933, specifically, LRN 172 - so this was not a post-1964 only project (which, had that been the case, would've meant that State Route 60 was the only ever definitive designation for the freeway west of Pomona).  

This page - http://www.cityofindustry.org/page.php?107 - does suggset that the Pomona Freeway wasn't complete until at least 1967.

Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2010, 04:23:15 PM

Interstate 80 (as signed) from US 101 to the Bay Bridge is officially not in the interstate system (just as Interstate 10 on the San Bernardino Freeway from I-5 to US 101 is "officially" not an interstate either, though in that case it was a one-time I-110 from 1965-1968).

here I thought I-10 multiplexed with I-5 between the San Bernardino and Santa Monica freeway.  It is definitely signed that way in the 1963 photo, but today it is unsigned.

was I-110 (or I-105 for that matter) ever signed?  I think there is still a 110 paddle somewhere.

QuoteI've always felt this was a clerical error (that has never been corrected) from the legislative end, as most of the removal of the "Interstate" status on signed I-80 west of the Embarcadero was part of the move to take the Western Freeway segment off of active planning, due to the freeway revolt.  (This then also suggests a followup question: was the Central Freeway, when built, constructed as I-80/US 101 as opposed to just US 101?  The Central was part of the I-80 route until the 1968 changes truncated it to its current western terminus.)

I do not know, but this reminds me of a photo I saw on either the Central Freeway, or the section of 101 just south of it, that had two US shields mounted on top of each other.  Alas, they were the back side of two cutouts, so I have no idea what the route numbers would be.  Was either US-40 or US-50 (but not both) extended down US-101?  Alternately, was there a 40/50 multiplex before US-101 was moved onto that freeway?  One cutout would make sense, and so would three, but ... two?

I'll have to look up the photo.  It's on my computer at home.  I'll post it here and maybe we can recognize the exact section of freeway being pictured.

QuoteI'll check around - it may have been in one of the official California Div Highways publications of the day.

that would be excellent; I've looked through a lot of CHPW magazines but not all.  Lots of excellent photos in there!

QuoteI'll probably be driving through there tonight so I'll be on the lookout for it...

it may not be visible at night.  I just barely spotted it as I floored it off the Treasure Island on-ramp stop sign.

here (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=bay+bridge,&sll=37.80886,-122.366645&sspn=0.004145,0.012145&ie=UTF8&split=1&rq=1&ev=zi&radius=0.4&hq=bay+bridge,&hnear=&ll=37.808326,-122.367064&spn=0,0.012145&z=17&layer=c&cbll=37.808418,-122.366962&panoid=EhDPwoL3u8X6TOgW1o1i-Q&cbp=12,239.45,,0,16.85) - look between the truck and the stop sign for the cross-shaped rusted gantry. 

QuoteThat is what I'm wondering as well - it could be as simple as CalTrans anticipating the reroute of US 60 to the Pomona routing, before the 1964 renumbering did occur, or it could even  hint at a temporary surface street routing, though I'm not sure that would be the case there.

What that photo doesn't show, however, is what the San Bernardino Freeway mainline signage itself was like.

what specifically are you looking to find out?  I have some other photos.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19580052i1.jpg)

view on northbound I-5, sometime between 1959-1963 (if we can identify the models of cars, it would help narrow the year down).  Same view as the Ramona Freeway gantry I posted earlier in this thread.

I think I have some other photos that I did not upload to the site.

QuoteThis photo at Cameron Kaiser's site - http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/395/xtra/town2.jpg - does show another example of the I-10/US 70/US 99 concurrency, this time signed off of then-US 395 (now I-215) in southern San Bernardino.

I have two from that area as well:

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19550911i1.jpg)

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19580101i1.jpg)

no sign of 60 here, and the earlier photo is 1957 a sign pair - older-style shields on black, but no logo.  60 must be on the Moreno Valley Fwy.  (When did that open?  And how did it connect back to the San Bernardino Fwy before the Pomona Fwy opened and took the number?)

and, as a bonus, here is the Banning split off the San Bernardino which was signed as 60/70/99 at the time:

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19550602i1.jpg)

and one from an unknown location with some awesome 1956-spec shields:

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19520701i1.jpg)

QuoteThis page - http://www.cityofindustry.org/page.php?107 - does suggset that the Pomona Freeway wasn't complete until at least 1967.

that appears to cover an area that isn't quite the East LA Interchange.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2010, 04:49:26 PM

Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2010, 04:23:15 PM

Interstate 80 (as signed) from US 101 to the Bay Bridge is officially not in the interstate system (just as Interstate 10 on the San Bernardino Freeway from I-5 to US 101 is "officially" not an interstate either, though in that case it was a one-time I-110 from 1965-1968).

here I thought I-10 multiplexed with I-5 between the San Bernardino and Santa Monica freeway.  It is definitely signed that way in the 1963 photo, but today it is unsigned.

I-10 and "Route 10" are two different things per se (as mentioned on Ballard's site) - I-10 runs concurrently with I-5 on the Golden State Freeway segment that was never US 99, BUT when I-110 was removed from the system in 1968, the orphaned former US 60/70/99 San Bernardino Freeway between the Santa Ana (101) and Golden State (5) was simply added to I-10's legislative definition - and signed as I-10 - but not part of the Interstate.

Confusing, isn't it?

Quote from: agentsteel53
was I-110 (or I-105 for that matter) ever signed?  I think there is still a 110 paddle somewhere.

Honestly, I'm not sure - even 238 has a better claim at being an interstate than the 1965-1968 I-110 did, as 1965-1968 I-110/today's "Route 10" (which is signed for/as I-10) has no exits between its termini.

Quote from: agentsteel53

QuoteI've always felt this was a clerical error (that has never been corrected) from the legislative end, as most of the removal of the "Interstate" status on signed I-80 west of the Embarcadero was part of the move to take the Western Freeway segment off of active planning, due to the freeway revolt.  (This then also suggests a followup question: was the Central Freeway, when built, constructed as I-80/US 101 as opposed to just US 101?  The Central was part of the I-80 route until the 1968 changes truncated it to its current western terminus.)

I do not know, but this reminds me of a photo I saw on either the Central Freeway, or the section of 101 just south of it, that had two US shields mounted on top of each other.  Alas, they were the back side of two cutouts, so I have no idea what the route numbers would be.  Was either US-40 or US-50 (but not both) extended down US-101?  Alternately, was there a 40/50 multiplex before US-101 was moved onto that freeway?  One cutout would make sense, and so would three, but ... two?

It could simply be that represents the first eastbound 40/50 trailblazer, on the pole where the first 80 trailblazer is now.  I THINK the shot I saw though was a photo facing northeast down westbound 80, but back of shields (two US, one interstate).

40/50 originally ended at US 101 on city streets (approximately today's Potrero Avenue/10th Street junction), though the east half of the San Francisco Skyway did exist by the late 1930s.  (That makes it possible to even claim that today's I-80 between 5th Street and the Macarthur Maze represents California's first freeway - as US 40/50 - and NOT the Arroyo Seco Parkway - though I don't have more definitive proof.)

Pre-1964, I think that 40/50 ended at 101, while 80 (at least on maps) continued west along 101 to Fell Street (where the Western Freeway would have begun).  My 1967 Rand McNally shows this configuration.

I'll have to look up the photo.  It's on my computer at home.  I'll post it here and maybe we can recognize the exact section of freeway being pictured.

Quote from: agentsteel53

it may not be visible at night.  I just barely spotted it as I floored it off the Treasure Island on-ramp stop sign.

How old are the Treasure Island exits anyway?  Pre-1943?

Quote from: agentsteel53

QuoteThat is what I'm wondering as well - it could be as simple as CalTrans anticipating the reroute of US 60 to the Pomona routing, before the 1964 renumbering did occur, or it could even  hint at a temporary surface street routing, though I'm not sure that would be the case there.

What that photo doesn't show, however, is what the San Bernardino Freeway mainline signage itself was like.

what specifically are you looking to find out?  I have some other photos.


view on northbound I-5, sometime between 1959-1963 (if we can identify the models of cars, it would help narrow the year down).  Same view as the Ramona Freeway gantry I posted earlier in this thread.

That first car (the white one) looks to be a 57 or 58 Bel-Air...

Quote from: agentsteel53

I have two from that area as well:

60 must be on the Moreno Valley Fwy.  (When did that open?  And how did it connect back to the San Bernardino Fwy before the Pomona Fwy opened and took the number?)

Judging from the 1936 map previously linked in the thread, the Moreno Valley corridor was part of US 60 at least back then, if not earlier; 60 originally linked back to today's I-10 routing (originally 99 ca. 1933, later 70 as well) going westbound via Mission Boulevard in the west end of Pomona (and then approximately along today's Route 71 for a mile).

Quote from: agentsteel53
and, as a bonus, here is the Banning split off the San Bernardino which was signed as 60/70/99 at the time:
and one from an unknown location with some awesome 1956-spec shields:

That Banning photo...any guesses as to what the background sign says?  "US 395 to 91?"  It's a left-exit, but not sure if it corresponds to today's 60/10 split, or a completely different interchange (i.e. Route 79?).

The snowcapped mountain in the Banning photo is Mt. San Jacinto, which is on the south side of the freeway in the picture (the photographer was facing more-or-less due east, in other words). The left exit is probably just a simple access ramp to central Banning.

The other picture with the 1956-era US highway signs looks like it's westbound, heading into Calimesa/Yucaipa. Wonder when that picture was taken--in the background, the traffic gets off the freeway and a bit farther down the road, you can see the new westbound lanes of what is now I-10.

Quote from: hm insulators on June 03, 2010, 06:15:25 PM
The other picture with the 1956-era US highway signs looks like it's westbound, heading into Calimesa/Yucaipa. Wonder when that picture was taken--in the background, the traffic gets off the freeway and a bit farther down the road, you can see the new westbound lanes of what is now I-10.

Would this photo have been taken in Banning, Beaumont, or even Cabazon going west?  (60 never makes it towards Calimesa/Yucaipa, splitting in Beaumont)

Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2010, 05:19:11 PM
Confusing, isn't it?

yep, California's insistence on two systems (legislative vs. signed) is pretty ridiculous.  It should've been corrected in 1934 when the routes were first signed.  Not to mention that I-10, rte 10, and legislative 10 are three different systems - and, in the same area, the legislative definition of I-5 suddenly jumps a level at the East LA interchange, I think to take over old 105.

QuoteIt could simply be that represents the first eastbound 40/50 trailblazer

I will have to look.

QuoteHow old are the Treasure Island exits anyway?  Pre-1943?

I thought they dated back to the opening of the bridge in 1936.  There is a very old butterfly gantry at the on-ramp set from Yerba Buena to I-80, but ... unfortunately, the last time I was there, the two signs (one for San Francisco, one for Oakland) that had dated to the 1960s have been covered up with signs in ... Arial!  Ouch!

QuoteJudging from the 1936 map previously linked in the thread, the Moreno Valley corridor was part of US 60 at least back then, if not earlier;

is that like the 17 expressway in Santa Cruz, that originally opened in 1940, and has been only minimally upgraded since?  I had heard that the Moreno Valley Freeway opened in 1952, but I can't remember where I got that date.

QuoteThat Banning photo...any guesses as to what the background sign says?  "US 395 to 91?"  

US 60 70 99/Business.  That sign is from 1956-58, when side-of-the-road signs had all mixed-case, including for cardinal directions and friends*.  

* Junction, Business, Alternate, By-Pass, etc.  Basically anything that would appear on a banner.

Before 1956, side-of-the-road signs were all caps (while overheads were mixed case since 1950, including for cardinal directions) and in 1958 they switched to all-caps for cardinal directions and friends (but they weren't consistent about it - see some 1960s signs on the I-405 to I-605 ramps* where the 605 directions are in mixed case).

* I think that's where they are.  Something to I-605 ramps, anyway!

one more picture of 60-70-99 from the shield gallery.  

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19540601i1.jpg)

how about that!  Individual logos on the shields, which are scaled up versions of 1948-spec standalone markers.  Photo is from 1956, age of the shields is unknown.  I honestly cannot even tell if the sign has reflectors.  Reason I point that out, is because the 1948-style standalone shields were the first retroreflective signs California experimented with before declaring them a failure and returning to plastic buttons in porcelain in 1949.

here's a picture that shows 60 branching off some freeway.  Do you know which one?

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19550603i1.jpg)

that is a 1955-56 sign, photo from '56.  I do believe 1955 is the first year that Cal Div Hwys had shields on the overhead signs, as I did not ever see a photo with shields earlier than that.  Only on side-of-road installations, which were, half the time, spelled out designations anyway.  

1955 is also the first year CA switched to outline shields on side-of-road signs, with just a number in a border.  previously, the signs used to be less abstract, with a bear in the state route, and a US in the US route, and with positive contrast.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19501271i1.jpg)

1947 spec guide signs with Div Hwys logos.  From the height of the man and the font in DEATH VALLEY (8" letters, it looks like), I should be able to figure out the size of the signs and the shields themselves.  I think they're 18" high shields offhand.  A friend of mine has a 17 sign like the 127 (except with 1949 font); I will ask him.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19500171i1.jpg)

I don't know how that Cal US 60/70/99 triplet sign fits into the chronology - my guess is it's a 1948 retroreflective experiment, just like the stand-alone shields.

Quote from: agentsteel53yep, California's insistence on two systems (legislative vs. signed) is pretty ridiculous.  It should've been corrected in 1934 when the routes were first signed.  Not to mention that I-10, rte 10, and legislative 10 are three different systems - and, in the same area, the legislative definition of I-5 suddenly jumps a level at the East LA interchange, I think to take over old 105.

California's insistence on legislative handling of route signage in the first place is a big reason for this problem, and if anything, 1964 only partially corrected that problem.

In a perfect world, this would...

1. Entirely be handled on the DOT (CalTrans) level

2. involve route definitions that do not account for specific maintenance vagaries, but rather "Point A to Point B" (case in point: instead of US 101 being in two segments because the Golden Gate Bridge is maintained by another agency, US 101 would simply be defined as "From I-5 in Los Angeles to the Oregon border, via Ventura, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, San Jose, San Francisco, Santa Rosa, Eureka, and Crescent City."  Any concurrencies would be noted IN the definition (of the subordinate route, with Interstate/US/state being the hierarchy), rather than omitted.  (i.e. Route 99 would be defined as "from I-5 Exit xx in Wheeler Ridge to Route 36 in Red Bluff, passing through Bakersfield, Fresno,  Modesto, Stockton, Sacramento, Yuba City and Chico, including 2 miles of US 50 and 7 miles of I-5 in Sacramento.")

3. allow for letter designations when applicable (i.e. if I-15E existed today, it wouldn't need a "hidden" designation) like it did as Route 194)

4. completely abolish hidden, unsigned designations - especially my pet peeve, Route 164 (which is a paper designation for a segment of Route 19 that has been signed as Route 19 since 1934!) - and eliminate unsigned route gaps (i.e. Route 16 in Sacramento, Route 39 from fullerton to Asuza) by either introducing/reintroducing signage, or each section receiving a different number.

5. ironically, the basic goal of 1964 - signage should match the legislative definition.  i.e. instead of Route 61 comprising of Route 112, Route 61, and Route 260 (the first and third being unsigned hidden routes), all that would be in the Route 61 definition.

I think right now, I-10 is defined in two segments, originally "Route 1 tO Route 105" and "Route 110 to the Arizona state line" but redefined in 1968 as "Route 1 to Route 5" and "Route 101 to Arizona state line."  In my dream system noted above, I'd redefine it as "from Route 1 in Santa Monica to the Arizona state line, passing through Los Angeles, San Bernardino, and Indio and including 2 miles of Route 5 in East Los Angeles and a spur between Route 5 and Route 101."

Quote from: agentsteel53

Quote
Judging from the 1936 map previously linked in the thread, the Moreno Valley corridor was part of US 60 at least back then, if not earlier;

is that like the 17 expressway in Santa Cruz, that originally opened in 1940, and has been only minimally upgraded since?  I had heard that the Moreno Valley Freeway opened in 1952, but I can't remember where I got that date.

I think that may indeed be a good comparison point - the easternmost segment of today's Route 60 (just west of Beaumont) has still yet to be upgraded to freeway.  However, the original US 60 route east of Riverside (now a frontage road) and west of Perris Boulevard is Sunnymead Boulevard.  (East of Perris Boulevard, the freeway and modern expressway are on the 1936 routing.)

Quote from: agentsteel53US 60 70 99/Business.  That sign is from 1956-58, when side-of-the-road signs had all mixed-case, including for cardinal directions and friends*.  

* Junction, Business, Alternate, By-Pass, etc.  Basically anything that would appear on a banner.

Is that photo right at today's 60/10 junction?  I can't tell if it's being taken from I-10 east, or from Route 60 east (there is enough room for a left-hand ramp to 6th Street to have been in the area.)
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Banning,+CA&sll=33.931076,-117.024007&sspn=0.018765,0.034332&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Banning,+Riverside,+California&ll=33.932251,-116.988451&spn=0.009382,0.017166&z=16

Quote from: agentsteel53here's a picture that shows 60 branching off some freeway.  Do you know which one?

That is most certainly the San Bernardino Freeway (70/99 east of that point) in Pomona it is branching off of; the lack of cardinal direction on this highly suggests that the photo is taken facing east.

It appears that the old ramp to Holt Avenue was supplanted by today's set of ramps from I-10 east to Route 71 south..
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Holt+Ave,+Pomona&sll=33.932251,-116.988451&sspn=0.009382,0.017166&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=W+Holt+Ave,+Pomona,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.063717,-117.792964&spn=0.018736,0.034332&z=15


As for that 60/70/99 retroreflective sign...where was that photo taken?  US 101 south at the junction with I-10 east (the "San Bernardino Split" interchange where 60/70 began)?

---

And here's more photos and info about 60/70 at the west end, from US-ends:
http://www.usends.com/Focus/LosAngeles/index.html

Quote from: TheStranger on June 03, 2010, 07:28:37 PM

I think right now, I-10 is defined in two segments, originally "Route 1 tO Route 105" and "Route 110 to the Arizona state line" but redefined in 1968 as "Route 1 to Route 5" and "Route 101 to Arizona state line."  In my dream system noted above, I'd redefine it as "from Route 1 in Santa Monica to the Arizona state line, passing through Los Angeles, San Bernardino, and Indio and including 2 miles of Route 5 in East Los Angeles and a spur between Route 5 and Route 101."

makes sense.  alas, our tax dollars are busy complicating things.

QuoteI think that may indeed be a good comparison point - the easternmost segment of today's Route 60 (just west of Beaumont) has still yet to be upgraded to freeway.  

the age also explains the horrific curves.  That is one challenging road to take at LA speed of traffic (80mph in the ideal case).

QuoteIs that photo right at today's 60/10 junction?  I can't tell if it's being taken from I-10 east, or from Route 60 east (there is enough room for a left-hand ramp to 6th Street to have been in the area.)

Given that we are looking at Banning, and not Beaumont, I'd say there's only one freeway in question.  The 10/60 split is a few miles to the west.

QuoteAs for that 60/70/99 retroreflective sign...where was that photo taken?  US 101 south at the junction with I-10 east (the "San Bernardino Split" interchange where 60/70 began)?

I do not know.  I am not one of those savants that can recognize an intersection based on a single concrete pillar ;)

one more random item to contribute to this discussion, because I just found it on Mike Ballard's page.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scvresources.com%2Fhighways%2Fcolorado-fwy_west_end_freeway.jpg&hash=cd38ace67aaaf616fc21a3dbbd678f733ee7c487)

End of the Colorado Freeway.  I'd passed by this many times and only now noticed ... this is an 1957-1958 sign!  It is the last of the black signs on a freeway in California.  (Too bad it isn't actually a black sign!)  

mid-1957: logo dropped
late 1957: switch to 3/4 ratio of lowercase to capital letters, instead of older 2/3
mid-1958: switch to modern-looking black signs with different shield shape, rounded-rectangle border, etc*
Sept '59: green signs, with the template the same as the late 1958 set, just the background color changed.

(*these signs may be green, as all the photos I've seen are b/w - the reason I think they are black is because the oldest spec I've seen for green signs is Sept '59, but I've seen field installation photos from 1958 with that sign style)

also, at some point they changed from overlighting to underlighting - from what I can tell, it is when they switched to the "modern-looking" signs, but that's just because I can't think of a counterexample - either an overlit modern sign, or an underlit old one.  An underlit old one would be a conscious change, while an overlit modern one may just be a quick in-situ replacement of an older sign without updating the gantry configuration.

I'd imagine they switched from over- to under- lights because replacing the bulbs would've been a harrowing job in the first case.  

next time I am there, I will be sure to take a look at the date stamp on the End Freeway sign.  

an actual black overhead sign on Foothill Blvd, 1958 stamp on the back, vanished within the last couple years.  Nowadays the only overhead black signs I can think of as being in circulation are the 1948-49 signs near Lake Merritt with non-standardized-font all-caps lettering.

Quote from: agentsteel53Given that we are looking at Banning, and not Beaumont, I'd say there's only one freeway in question.  The 10/60 split is a few miles to the west.

Yeah, now that I'm looking at it, my guess as to which interchange this is, would be present-day I-10 Exit 98 (Sunset Avenue), the first exit in town coming from the Beaumont/LA side.  Not sure though.

That photo of the End Freeway sign reminds me of one of my favorite quirks of downtown LA freeway signage - half-sized green signs for single-legend text, i.e. Mission Road off of the Santa Ana Freeway!  Did that come about in the 1958-or-so time period, and how long did that standard last?  I can't think of any NorCal examples.

the halfies are a very old standard, dating back to the idea that a guide sign should only be as large as needed.  Auto club rectangle signs (1929) with one control city were half the size of those with three control cities.

the oldest half-size overhead gantry I've seen is a photo from 1949.  I'm sure there are older, though, dating back to the first days of overhead gantries (1947 or so) - and, before that, some signs by the side of the road were half size as well.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 03, 2010, 10:35:09 PM
the oldest half-size overhead gantry I've seen is a photo from 1949.  I'm sure there are older, though, dating back to the first days of overhead gantries (1947 or so) - and, before that, some signs by the side of the road were half size as well.

How long were the half-sized signs made in the green-background era?  I don't think there are any black-background examples remaining...

Quote from: TheStranger on June 04, 2010, 02:59:04 PM

How long were the half-sized signs made in the green-background era?  I don't think there are any black-background examples remaining...

the yellow-background END FREEWAY half-size dates to the black sign era, but indeed there are no genuine black freeway signs left, half-size or otherwise. 

I do not know how long they were made in the half-size.  I don't recall any that aren't porcelain; and offhand the latest I can remember is the 1962 signs that survive on the Arroyo Seco - in older overlit brackets, no less!  But I haven't paid too much attention to half vs. full-size signs so my answer is not particularly authoritative.

one thing I've noticed I have a gap in my knowledge about is: what did the shields look like on side-of-the-road signs on porcelain green signs?  (1959 to 1963.)  I don't remember if the sign manuals I have specify the exact same layout as the 1958 style with mixed case, as seen here:

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19554091i1.jpg)

the sign on the left is a 1955 style, with spelled-out as opposed to a shield.  the one on the right is an early '58 - the '56 style would've had a logo, and mixed case but with Series D capitals, and a late '58 would have had "junction" in all caps.

I just have not seen any examples from 1959-1963, or maybe I have, and figured that they were black signs given that the photos were b/w.  I've seen the aluminum-sandwich signs with shields and they are like the 10/70 junction sign in the foreground of the East LA Interchange I-5 southbound photo.

my guess is that they looked much the same, except green.  In mid-1958, the overhead signs went a drastic transformation in style, and that style was kept through the color change in 1959.  The only transformation the side-of-the-road signs underwent in mid-1958 was to change the banners back to all-caps; the shields were kept the same. 

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 04, 2010, 03:05:19 PM

Quote from: TheStranger on June 04, 2010, 02:59:04 PM

How long were the half-sized signs made in the green-background era?  I don't think there are any black-background examples remaining...

the yellow-background END FREEWAY half-size dates to the black sign era, but indeed there are no genuine black freeway signs left, half-size or otherwise.  

I do not know how long they were made in the half-size.  I don't recall any that aren't porcelain; and offhand the latest I can remember is the 1962 signs that survive on the Arroyo Seco - in older overlit brackets, no less!  But I haven't paid too much attention to half vs. full-size signs so my answer is not particularly authoritative.

I wonder how old the examples on the Santa Ana Freeway are, like this...

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.8712,107.138672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.053208,-118.229968&spn=0.001473,0.00327&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=34.053237,-118.230159&panoid=Di__rF73UMqX1i_Ir5UpLA&cbp=12,110.36,,0,6.03

Interestingly, the 2008-era signage added about a quarter mile behind that...uses EXTERNAL tabs!
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.8712,107.138672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.053544,-118.231323&spn=0.002947,0.006539&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=34.053584,-118.231626&panoid=iU0rEZYiWjgZAyKuZziiag&cbp=12,133.02,,0,1.83

I misremembered the ones on the Arroyo Seco - they say "CA-6X" so they're 1964 at the earliest.  I cannot make out the date stamp on the street view, unfortunately.

Quote from: TheStranger on June 04, 2010, 06:07:16 PMI wonder how old the examples on the Santa Ana Freeway are, like this...

I have no idea - on this one, I cannot spot the datestamp at all.  Usually one can tell the difference between the long stamp "59-7Sxxxx" for 1959-1961, then simply "C-62" for 1962-63, then "CA-64" for 1964 and later, which is helpful even if it doesn't give an exact year.  Note some 1961s say, simply "61". 

QuoteInterestingly, the 2008-era signage added about a quarter mile behind that...uses EXTERNAL tabs!

Were they replacements of signs with 1971 external tabs?  If so, I wouldn't be surprised if they carbon-copied.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 04, 2010, 06:44:57 PM

QuoteInterestingly, the 2008-era signage added about a quarter mile behind that...uses EXTERNAL tabs!

Were they replacements of signs with 1971 external tabs?  If so, I wouldn't be surprised if they carbon-copied.

The original sign actually did NOT have tabs at all!
https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_001e_02.jpg

Quote from: TheStranger on June 04, 2010, 08:48:50 PM

The original sign actually did NOT have tabs at all!
https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_001e_02.jpg

that looks to be a very old sign - not significantly newer than the 1973 switch from porcelain to button copy. 

maybe the tabs were added because some other sign in the same replacement contract had external tabs?  or just California plucking an idea out of thin air as they sometimes do.  For example, I've seen 1980s green signs with 2/3 lowercase letter height ratio, as if it were 1950 again.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 04, 2010, 09:36:30 PM

Quote from: TheStranger on June 04, 2010, 08:48:50 PM

The original sign actually did NOT have tabs at all!
https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_001e_02.jpg

that looks to be a very old sign - not significantly newer than the 1973 switch from porcelain to button copy.  

maybe the tabs were added because some other sign in the same replacement contract had external tabs?  or just California plucking an idea out of thin air as they sometimes do.  For example, I've seen 1980s green signs with 2/3 lowercase letter height ratio, as if it were 1950 again.

Let's see some other examples of signage at the San Bernardino Split/East Los Angeles Interchange complex:

- pasted on exit tab on the ramp from US 101 north to "Route 10" east at the San Bernardino Split:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=33.653209,-116.991863&sspn=0.095023,0.205994&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.050508,-118.222804&spn=0.011823,0.025663&z=16&layer=c&cbll=34.050638,-118.222888&panoid=tGnsjMaF5I6BIgcS47vi6w&cbp=12,348.46,,0,4.62 (Note the "Los Angeles" control city, despite the interchange being firmly in LA city limits!)

- internal-tab new sign for Alameda Street (early-1930s? US 101) along the southbound Santa Ana Freeway:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=33.653209,-116.991863&sspn=0.095023,0.205994&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.053584,-118.236322&spn=0.001487,0.003208&z=19&layer=c&cbll=34.05377,-118.236905&panoid=Ackmk5OE2T--3qUQgGLnYg&cbp=12,114.53,,0,4.32

- southbound Santa Ana Freeway at First Street, what appears to be 1970s-era signage with no exit tabs:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=33.653209,-116.991863&sspn=0.095023,0.205994&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.049468,-118.222429&spn=0.005947,0.012832&z=17&layer=c&cbll=34.049555,-118.222472&panoid=NuL9ojP4FxxNTQ9760_-sw&cbp=12,180.59,,0,7.18

- northbound Santa Ana Freeway at First Street, note that the two separate exits for I-10 east and Cesar Chavez Ave are listed on one sign:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=33.653209,-116.991863&sspn=0.095023,0.205994&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.045272,-118.22098&spn=0,0.012832&z=17&layer=c&cbll=34.045394,-118.220978&panoid=jykZbeAEa1AU-35ECbDuDg&cbp=12,5.86,,0,8.24

- northbound Santa Ana Freeway at the East Los Angeles Interchange, where I-5 splits off to the Golden State...the non-greenout "Sacramento" appelation makes me think this dates to the 80s.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=33.653209,-116.991863&sspn=0.095023,0.205994&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.025703,-118.206351&spn=0.002783,0.006416&z=18&layer=c&cbll=34.025734,-118.206447&panoid=nDYNeozBHuSs87PZah2EDg&cbp=12,302.54,,0,2.67

- Interstate 5 (Golden State Freeway) northbound, advance signage from the 1970s for 7th Street (with center-tabbed exit number)
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=33.653209,-116.991863&sspn=0.095023,0.205994&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.028673,-118.212515&spn=0.002783,0.006416&z=18&layer=c&cbll=34.028588,-118.212355&panoid=98grUs53-rZ3ceXmVHv86Q&cbp=12,293.83,,0,5.68

- Seventh Street exit off of I-5, with greenout "Sacramento" for I-5 sign (which probably originally carried "Bakersfield")
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=33.653209,-116.991863&sspn=0.095023,0.205994&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.032408,-118.218137&spn=0.002783,0.006416&z=18&layer=c&cbll=34.03211,-118.219031&panoid=gQi9-C-2cImVGrcYmVIb7A&cbp=12,321.53,,0,-0.34

- Destination distance sign for US 101 north along the Santa Ana Freeway (with Whittier Boulevard/historic US 101 crossing overhead) - note the "Fwy I-10 East" greenout; could this have said "San Bernardino Fwy"?  Sign looks too new to have been "US 60/70/99".
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=33.653209,-116.991863&sspn=0.095023,0.205994&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.036142,-118.221753&spn=0.011131,0.025663&z=16&layer=c&cbll=34.036233,-118.221759&panoid=gHtRmXJwe7BJ6jpf3D4DBw&cbp=12,6.04,,0,-0.49

- What appears to be 1960s signage (note the grimy button copy for the "Hollywood" control city - the first time the Santa Ana Freeway does not have Los Angeles as its northbound control city!) for US 101 north at Vignes Street, with the center-tab exit signage:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=33.653209,-116.991863&sspn=0.095023,0.205994&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.053442,-118.230513&spn=0.002782,0.006416&z=18&layer=c&cbll=34.05346,-118.23065&panoid=hgpZB1qcUGTaPoS86WFdag&cbp=12,275.97,,0,6.81

- One of the few "Second Right" signs left, this one for Grand Avenue:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=33.653209,-116.991863&sspn=0.095023,0.205994&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.055544,-118.240002&spn=0.002782,0.006416&z=18&layer=c&cbll=34.055483,-118.239892&panoid=cTQ8QVV4u-JytuULBV9-HA&cbp=12,291.24,,0,5.98

- The first exit southbound on the Santa Ana Freeway, center-tabbed for Broadway and Los Angeles Street - note greenout on what was likely a down arrow on the Broadway sign...
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=33.653209,-116.991863&sspn=0.095023,0.205994&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.057762,-118.243994&spn=0.002773,0.006539&z=18&layer=c&cbll=34.05766,-118.243864&panoid=HS9fwKN-1fOKDGfq5mfqJg&cbp=12,136.01,,0,-2.6

- Modern internal-tab sign on US 101 south for Alameda Street, still using the "sign shield" structure:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=33.653209,-116.991863&sspn=0.095023,0.205994&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.055842,-118.240812&spn=0.002773,0.006539&z=18&layer=c&cbll=34.055778,-118.240708&panoid=1RJQKP3qBZs4NlbdDPSDAg&cbp=12,116.97,,0,12.75

Quote from: TheStranger on June 05, 2010, 04:42:50 AM
- southbound Santa Ana Freeway at First Street, what appears to be 1970s-era signage with no exit tabs:

indeed, this is 70s or 80s.

Quote- northbound Santa Ana Freeway at the East Los Angeles Interchange, where I-5 splits off to the Golden State...the non-greenout "Sacramento" appelation makes me think this dates to the 80s.

sounds about right.  looking at the back of the signs on street view reveals that they are indeed not porcelain.

Quote- Interstate 5 (Golden State Freeway) northbound, advance signage from the 1970s for 7th Street (with center-tabbed exit number)

I believe this sign is a '71, implying it was installed with the tab in place.

Quote- Seventh Street exit off of I-5, with greenout "Sacramento" for I-5 sign (which probably originally carried "Bakersfield")

this one is super old.  It looks to me to be a 1958 spec, as opposed to '61 spec, interstate shield, though I have trouble telling them apart for the one-digit numbers.  In any case, the freeway name is very old.  Do you know when they stopped signing those?  I know the 605 was the first freeway without a name - 1966 or so?

Quote- Destination distance sign for US 101 north along the Santa Ana Freeway (with Whittier Boulevard/historic US 101 crossing overhead) - note the "Fwy I-10 East" greenout; could this have said "San Bernardino Fwy"?  Sign looks too new to have been "US 60/70/99".

your guess is as good as mine.  The sign might very well be old; for some reason those '59s and '60s really tend to hold up well.  The one for Main Street (I-5 southbound) looks much newer than what it is: 1959.

Quote- What appears to be 1960s signage (note the grimy button copy for the "Hollywood" control city - the first time the Santa Ana Freeway does not have Los Angeles as its northbound control city!) for US 101 north at Vignes Street, with the center-tab exit signage:

CA-XX datestamps imply '64 or later.

Quote- One of the few "Second Right" signs left, this one for Grand Avenue:

no idea on this one - its mounting, and the presence of the collar, have prevented me from really ever taking a good look at that one.

Quote from: agentsteel53

Quote- Seventh Street exit off of I-5, with greenout "Sacramento" for I-5 sign (which probably originally carried "Bakersfield")

this one is super old.  It looks to me to be a 1958 spec, as opposed to '61 spec, interstate shield, though I have trouble telling them apart for the one-digit numbers.  In any case, the freeway name is very old.  Do you know when they stopped signing those?  I know the 605 was the first freeway without a name - 1966 or so?

My guess is that the 1970s was the last time CalTrans heavily mentioned freeway names - judging from some of the Orange County 405 "San Diego Freeway" signs that are photographed on Mark Furqueron's site.

That's not to say it's not done at all, as more recent "Bayshore Fwy" and "MacArthur Fwy" examples in the Bay Area do show it in use once in a while - but rarely.

Another freeway that I think barely gets its name mentioned in signage in that area (along with 605) would be 210 (Foothill Fwy).  105 does not have name signage anywhere IIRC, and 118's is all on roadside wooden-pole structures if I'm not mistaken, which was definitely the case in the Simi Valley-San Fernando Valley Freeway era.

Quote from: agentsteel53

Quote- Destination distance sign for US 101 north along the Santa Ana Freeway (with Whittier Boulevard/historic US 101 crossing overhead) - note the "Fwy I-10 East" greenout; could this have said "San Bernardino Fwy"?  Sign looks too new to have been "US 60/70/99".

your guess is as good as mine.  The sign might very well be old; for some reason those '59s and '60s really tend to hold up well.  The one for Main Street (I-5 southbound) looks much newer than what it is: 1959.

Looking at street view, on southbound US 101 at Alameda Street (near our retroreflective modern center-tab sign!), there's still the "San Bernardino Fwy" moniker up on the distance sign.  So not sure why one gets greened out, and the other doesn't.

Speaking of Alameda Street, here's THE modern retroreflective center-tabbed sign, at the ramps!!!  My guess is that this is a direct replacement of a similar setup from the 1971 project.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles&sll=33.653209,-116.991863&sspn=0.095023,0.205994&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=N+Mission+Rd,+Los+Angeles,+California&ll=34.054375,-118.238366&spn=0.002773,0.006539&z=18&layer=c&cbll=34.054311,-118.238256&panoid=QpDyn4d6o9Jf-A1MYhB-aQ&cbp=12,131.36,,0,1.63

Quote from: TheStranger on June 05, 2010, 05:38:10 AM
Another freeway that I think barely gets its name mentioned in signage in that area (along with 605) would be 210 (Foothill Fwy).

there was a greenout failure on I-5 at 210 about a year ago, and the freeway name was revealed!  I'll have to dig up the photo, but it was one of these signs.  I believe the right one.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=sylmar,+ca&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.8712,68.378906&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Sylmar&ll=34.321039,-118.496604&spn=0.005875,0.008347&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=34.320976,-118.496465&panoid=RuIHQpfj01Py-AYAlyGjHg&cbp=12,131.77,,0,5

QuoteSpeaking of Alameda Street, here's THE modern retroreflective center-tabbed sign, at the ramps!!!  My guess is that this is a direct replacement of a similar setup from the 1971 project.

correct, except the tab was centered better in '71!

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 05, 2010, 05:48:18 AM

Quote from: TheStranger on June 05, 2010, 05:38:10 AM
Another freeway that I think barely gets its name mentioned in signage in that area (along with 605) would be 210 (Foothill Fwy).

there was a greenout failure on I-5 at 210 about a year ago, and the freeway name was revealed!  I'll have to dig up the photo, but it was one of these signs.  I believe the right one.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=sylmar,+ca&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=45.8712,68.378906&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Sylmar&ll=34.321039,-118.496604&spn=0.005875,0.008347&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=34.320976,-118.496465&panoid=RuIHQpfj01Py-AYAlyGjHg&cbp=12,131.77,,0,5

Honestly, greening out "Foothill Fwy" with "Freeway" has to rank as one of the most pointless things I have ever seen, if for no other reason than...couldn't CalTrans have saved money by simply greening out "Foothill," or better yet, not doing anything here at all?

I can understand removing the freeway name from junctions (though I am no fan of that practice), but...here, I can't see the purpose of it.

Quote

correct, except the tab was centered better in '71!

And the 1971 tab was twice as big and more readable, too!

I assume directional tabs were an innovation of the later-70s (after California had abandoned its exit numbering experiment).

we have an explanation for the 1963 photo, courtesy of Mike Ballard.

first, the distant sign has "Santa Ana Fwy" as the bottom line.  It is, indeed, not the sign that is visible today, but the sign visible today is a '63 or '64 that is nearly identical, except to squeeze in the 10 shield, and possibly a 5 shield for Santa Ana Fwy. 

the last line got covered up in '65, when the ramps to the Pomona Fwy opened. 

US-60 was never signed on the Pomona Fwy. 

Reason being, the last routing of US-60 was from the end of the Moreno Valley Fwy, up surface streets to the San Bernardino Fwy, where it terminated.  US-70 was the continuing route, along with I-10.  This termination took place very early ('60 or '61), likely before the foreground sign was erected, so that never had a US-60 shield.

the Pomona Fwy was anticipated to be signed as state route 60 when it opened, from its conception.  The truncation of the US routes not a sudden idea in 1963; it had been anticipated by the 1950s.  Overhead guide signs, until 1955, simply didn't have shields on them just to try to avoid confusion, between the divergence of the named and numbered freeway set, and then the sheer quantity of route numbers.  Then, when shields were added, only select numbers were ever displayed.  For example, the Harbor Fwy was preferentially signed CA-11, with US-6 only rarely making an appearance. 

60 was planned to be a state route by the time the Pomona Fwy was being built, and therefore it was never signed as US-60.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 05, 2010, 03:26:13 PM
we have an explanation for the 1963 photo, courtesy of Mike Ballard.

first, the distant sign has "Santa Ana Fwy" as the bottom line.  It is, indeed, not the sign that is visible today, but the sign visible today is a '63 or '64 that is nearly identical, except to squeeze in the 10 shield, and possibly a 5 shield for Santa Ana Fwy.

That does actually make sense - at the time, the whole Santa Ana Fwy represented at least one completely different route (as I-5 was co-signed with US 101 for about 9-10 years) and not simply just a continuation of I-5 only, as is the case today.  

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 05, 2010, 03:26:13 PM

Reason being, the last routing of US-60 was from the end of the Moreno Valley Fwy, up surface streets to the San Bernardino Fwy, where it terminated.  US-70 was the continuing route, along with I-10.  This termination took place very early ('60 or '61), likely before the foreground sign was erected, so that never had a US-60 shield.

So US 60's pre-1964 western terminus was NOT Los Angeles, but where that I-10/Holt Avenue split in Pomona (posted earlier in the thread), where I-10 now junctions with Route 71, is located?

(That'd probably be a good update for Wikipedia, Cahighways, etc. as most sources simply have mentioned the route being cut back to Quartzite or east of Beaumont, and not at Pomona.)

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 05, 2010, 03:26:13 PM

the Pomona Fwy was anticipated to be signed as state route 60 when it opened, from its conception.  The truncation of the US routes not a sudden idea in 1963; it had been anticipated by the 1950s.  Overhead guide signs, until 1955, simply didn't have shields on them just to try to avoid confusion, between the divergence of the named and numbered freeway set, and then the sheer quantity of route numbers.  Then, when shields were added, only select numbers were ever displayed.  For example, the Harbor Fwy was preferentially signed CA-11, with US-6 only rarely making an appearance.  

60 was planned to be a state route by the time the Pomona Fwy was being built, and therefore it was never signed as US-60.

I wonder what's out there as far as documentation for numbering proposals/restructuring.  Although the Interstates had been proposed in some form since the 1940s, the final numbering plan didn't get concocted until 1957-1958 (as CalTrans originally suggested several different numbers to avoid the 40/80 duplication, and didn't originally use 3dis for the longer regional routes), so the US routes were the primary major designations entering the mid-1950s.

The Pomona Freeway as LRN 172 had existed as a corridor as far back as 1933, and US 60 was on Valley Boulevard for at least a year, which makes me think that pre-construction, that was still expected to be US 60, and that the Interstates' arrival was what spurred the truncation.  (I do find it intriguing that 70 and 99 were not originally truncated though, and were signed in the East Los Angeles area when the Interstates were being first trailblazered.)

As for the Harbor Freeway/today's I-110...from all the vintage photos I've seen of it, it was signed as US 6 primarily south of the Four-Level.  (I do recall Route 11 being noted on maps at times as almost a "Business route" of 6/66, along Figueroa Street - in fact, if I'm not mistaken, 11 did not run on the Pasadena Freeway until 1964, but along its original route up Figueroa north of the tunnels with US 66A, the segment that would later become unsigned Route 159.)  Some examples from the AARoads shield gallery:

www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19550062 - downtown LA, US 6 and Route 11 on the gantry
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19510061 - trailblazer assembly near today's Golden State Freeway/Pasadena Freeway junction, where 66 and 99 turned south on the Pasadena with south 11 and west 66
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19550662 - early-1950s signage at the Four-Level, at the transition from the Hollywood to Santa Ana freeways - US 66 is only shield on the gantry, and no mention of Route 11
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19550111 - Harbor Freeway about a mile south of I-10, I can't tell if this is the northbound or southbound ramps.  Signed as both US 6 and Route 11.
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19580061 - Early 1960s signage for the Harbor and Pasadena Freeways off of US 101 - the sign is still in use, but with Route 110 shields covering up the US shields in greenout.  No mention of Route 11.
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19610061 - "US 6 West" San Pedro signage (interesting how CalTrans NOW signs US 6 mostly as north-south, but when the north-south segment of US 6 was longer, well...) from the early 1960s.  Not sure if this is off of US 101, I-10 (probably not I-10), Route 91, or I-405, the four freeways that crossed the Harbor Freeway at the time.  (I-105 was added much later to the mix, and Route 90 was never completed between Yorba Linda and Marina Del Rey.
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19400063 - 1940s surface street photo, 6 and 11 co-signed along Figueroa Street near downtown.
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19340061 - 1940s surface street photo, Figueroa at Manchester Avenue (the future Route 42 at that point).

Quote from: TheStranger on June 05, 2010, 03:48:38 PM
So US 60's pre-1964 western terminus was NOT Los Angeles, but where that I-10/Holt Avenue split in Pomona (posted earlier in the thread), where I-10 now junctions with Route 71, is located?

I do not know how official the terminus was, but the 60 shield was eliminated from signs going forward.

QuoteAs for the Harbor Freeway/today's I-110...from all the vintage photos I've seen of it, it was signed as US 6 primarily south of the Four-Level.  (I do recall Route 11 being noted on maps as almost a "Business route" of 6/66, along Figueroa Street - in fact, if I'm not mistaken, 11 did not run on the Pasadena Freeway until 1964, but along its original route up Figueroa north of the tunnels with US 66A, the segment that would later become unsigned Route 159.) 

maybe I am thinking of the Pasadena Fwy, then, because I have a few photos floating around that are just 11 (as opposed to 66, in that case).  I'll have to dig them up.

Looking through the gallery to see the US 66 signage in the LA area, here's one from the Four-Level with a very fascinating US 101 shield:
www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=CA19550661

The examples of the Pasadena Freeway tangentially linked to in my previous post DO note 66 only for the freeway north of 101.  My assumption is that 11 exited off before the tunnels to follow US 66A...

that is a very interesting picture.  For a while I had thought the sign was green, totally screwing up my chronology, but it is just the way the film capture worked out.  I need to color-correct it sometime.  Note the logo on the sign; it is a 1955-57.

it is the only time I've seen the cardinal direction like that.  Must have been a space saver so that the sign didn't have to go to full height.

I'm afraid I didn't take any photos of the just-11 pictures I saw at the Caltrans library.  I had very limited time, and was focusing more on unique shield styles, than freeway routings.  So I was satisfied with a single 6/11 photo from the Harbor Freeway that was of nice high quality and illustrated the US and spade shield straight-on.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19550111i1.jpg)

this is a 1956 photo.  now that I look carefully, the signs have no white border at all!  The 60 on-ramp sign has the logo and the border, so that must be the later style.  Great, just one more variant for me to track down the history of.  This is complicated!  :-D

alternately, I might be just totally misremembering, and it was 66 that was signed on the Pasadena Fwy - the general idea, though, still stands, that certain routes were deprecated even if they were formally extant, just to minimize the confusion.  

Yeah, the white border was introduced in 1958, correct?

Quote from: agentsteel53the general idea, though, still stands, that certain routes were deprecated even if they were formally extant, just to minimize the confusion. 

Since routes were internally referred to by LRN, I've always thought that any route designations statewide were concocted not on the DOT level (at the time), but in this pre-1964 era, by the auto clubs (who probably applied to AASHO for the US routes).  Thus, the auto clubs encouraged more routes coming in (i.e. the 70 extension that duplicated 60 and 99, the 6 extension that involved the long concurrency with 395) and the Division of Highways had to keep up with it. 

It's no surprise that CalTrans in the post-1964 period has tended away from signed concurrencies, though IMO way too much so - in the time period between 1958 and 1964, mentioning as many routes as possible appears to have been the norm on freeway guide signage (i.e. US 91/US 395/Route 18 and I-15 in San Bernardino) almost to prove the point to the legislature that the existing system was not working.

Quote from: TheStranger on June 05, 2010, 04:26:22 PM
Yeah, the white border was introduced in 1958, correct?

before April 1957* when the logo was dropped.  The Holt Ave/Pomona sign with 60 shield has both logo and white border.

*the logo was dropped before April '57**, but during that year.  The first aluminum US shields are an April '57 spec sheet, and there are porcelain shields with '57 date stamp, both with and without logo.

** I think I said August '57 earlier in this thread.  I had misremembered the date on the spec sheet.

the white border was introduced sometime between 1955 and 1957.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 05, 2010, 04:30:05 PM

Quote from: TheStranger on June 05, 2010, 04:26:22 PM
Yeah, the white border was introduced in 1958, correct?

before April 1957* when the logo was dropped.  The Holt Ave/Pomona sign with 60 shield has both logo and white border.

*the logo was dropped before April '57**, but during that year.  The first aluminum US shields are an April '57 spec sheet, and there are porcelain shields with '57 date stamp, both with and without logo.

** I think I said August '57 earlier in this thread.  I had misremembered the date on the spec sheet.

the white border was introduced sometime between 1955 and 1957.

The rounded corners on the white border were around when the Interstates came in, that's from 58 or 59? 

The Holt Avenue sign also sports the pre-1958 tendency to add a period after street name abbreviations - which has been deprecated in most modern signage.

Quote from: TheStranger on June 05, 2010, 04:37:25 PM
The rounded corners on the white border were around when the Interstates came in, that's from 58 or 59? 

'58 is the earliest I've seen.

just was looking at that '57 spec for aluminum shields.  It says 5/28/57, which is clearly not April.  :-D  I must've taken an extra dose of dumbass pills this morning!

so, the logo was dropped sometime between January and May of '57.

Looking again at the Mission Road interchange with the Santa Ana Freeway...we've got the same external tabs as that at Alameda Street, except...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/john-e/4491171528/

The left exit for I-10 (San Bernardino Split) correctly has a left-aligned tab, while Mission road has an odd semi-center aligned tab!

Another notable sign from the 2008-era contract is this, at the north terminus of the Santa Ana Freeway -

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mike_s_etc/3872045157/

In addition to I-110 being signed this far north (which is correct as far as reflecting the southbound signage of the Harbor Freeway in its entirety), this new reflective pull-through uses the freeway name going forward (Hollywood Fwy)!  I presume this isn't so much an intentional design choice as much as it is another example of "replacing previously-existing button copy sign with reflective sign, with no redaction of text."

The southbound pullthrough at the Four-Level does represent another CalTrans anomaly, in that instead of the previously used (and still extant - to nobody's credit - in the recent Business 80/US 50 resigning project in Sacramento) practice of "signing for the next route after terminus" - as seen to some extent here  https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_003b_02a.jpg - the FHWA-approved practice of "US 101 TO I-10/I-5/Route 60" is now in place in the vicinity  - https://www.aaroads.com/california/images100/us-101_sb_exit_003b_06.jpg

Seems like the East Los Angeles Interchange/San Bernardino Split area continues to be a testing ground for sign formatting, like it was in 1971...

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 05, 2010, 03:26:13 PM

60 was planned to be a state route by the time the Pomona Fwy was being built, and therefore it was never signed as US-60.

Actually...

There is at least one planning map (1958-era) which shows US 60 as the designation for the Pomona Freeway, from a recent upload by Eric Fischer:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/4778411204/in/photostream/

The map itself also contains some planning oddities I haven't seen elsewhere:  a Route 247 freeway (Route C), taking a different route from Apple Valley northwest...a combination of the unbuilt Route 122 and 249 corridors...a connector between Route 90 in Yorba Linda and unbuilt Route 81 west of Riverside...a Route 39 extension north of Route 2 all the way to unbuilt Route 48!

There's even a north-south freeway from today's I-15 at the state line south through Amboy at then-US 66 all the way to I-10 west of Chiraco Summit - I don't think this was ever proposed by the state.

Quote from: TheStranger on July 15, 2010, 05:17:09 PM
There is at least one planning map (1958-era) which shows US 60 as the designation for the Pomona Freeway, from a recent upload by Eric Fischer:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/4778411204/in/photostream/

so even that long ago they were planning on moving the designation.  Good to know!  Given that the freeway opened in 1965, I think Mike's observation that it was "planned to be state 60" was correct, because by 1962 or so I am quite sure they knew they were going to eliminate a bunch of routes.

QuoteThere's even a north-south freeway from today's I-15 at the state line south through Amboy at then-US 66 all the way to I-10 west of Chiraco Summit - I don't think this was ever proposed by the state.

if that freeway existed, I wouldn't have a fast route back from the desert.  All the Vegas traffic would take that freeway and I-10 to San Diego and LA, and both that and 15 would be hosed... this way, with the Amboy Road being an obscurity, I get to do 100mph on it while traffic crawls on I-15.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 15, 2010, 06:09:12 PM

Quote from: TheStranger on July 15, 2010, 05:17:09 PM
There is at least one planning map (1958-era) which shows US 60 as the designation for the Pomona Freeway, from a recent upload by Eric Fischer:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/walkingsf/4778411204/in/photostream/

so even that long ago they were planning on moving the designation.  Good to know!  Given that the freeway opened in 1965, I think Mike's observation that it was "planned to be state 60" was correct, because by 1962 or so I am quite sure they knew they were going to eliminate a bunch of routes.

Based on 1963 signing (where 70/10 remained concurrent on the San Bernardino Freeway with 99, while 60 was cut back to Pomona at Holt Avenue at the time), my guess - hard to verify without more documentation - is that in 1958, the Pomona Freeway (following much of the 1933 US 60 corridor) would be US 60, but by 1963 it was going to be a state route with US 60 being cut back.  (Which then doesn't quite explain why 70 and 99 were getting equal billing that late before the renumbering.)