Quote from: kphoger on April 30, 2021, 11:58:31 AM
The presence of cops running radar conveys the threat of legal consequences, which indirectly controls traffic through driver compliance
way back when when i lived in a little town called nunn...
i went up to the sheriff's car that was parked kinda behind a grain elevator, clearly shooting radar down us-85. i approached correctly, said i had a question. he's like 'sure!'
i asked him what he was doing, and he replied 'we're trying to slow traffic down through here'. the speed limit goes from 65 to i think 45 or 50 at the town line.
i said 'well, why don't you park where you can be seen? no one in their right mind is going to speed past you. if you're just radarring people, that doesn't slow them down.'
he didn't have a coherent answer.
[Discussion split from the "Unique, Odd, or Interesting Signs aka The good, the bad, and the ugly" thread. -S.]
When I drove US 6 Bishop to Cape Cod in 2006, passing through a little town called Butler near the IN-OH border, the speed limit abruptly dropped to 35 and Butler's finest (possibly Butler's only finest) swung in behind me. I already saw him and was already under 35. He tailgated me all the way through town on US 6 until I got to the other side of the town limits, whereupon another car going the other way failed to notice his presence and flew by, and he turned on his lights, executed a tight U-ey and pulled them over.
I never speed in small towns. Coincidentally, my one and only speeding ticket so far was just outside of Bishop, on US 395.
To be honest, probably the most fear-inducing experience you can have as a driver is being tailgated by a cop. I once had a cop tail me all the way from Talbotton to Geneva GA along US 80, which I realize is less than 8 miles but it felt a hell of a lot longer. The speed limit was 55, I was going exactly 55, and he rode my ass so close I was nervous to slow down where the limit drops heading into Geneva simply out of fear he would rear-end me. And of course, he did not take advantage of the passing lane that appeared halfway through. He was most definitely looking for a reason to pull me over with my Utah plates.
Quote from: US 89 on May 01, 2021, 12:17:35 PM
To be honest, probably the most fear-inducing experience you can have as a driver is being tailgated by a cop. I once had a cop tail me all the way from Talbotton to Geneva GA along US 80, which I realize is less than 8 miles but it felt a hell of a lot longer. The speed limit was 55, I was going exactly 55, and he rode my ass so close I was nervous to slow down where the limit drops heading into Geneva simply out of fear he would rear-end me. And of course, he did not take advantage of the passing lane that appeared halfway through. He was most definitely looking for a reason to pull me over with my Utah plates.
He probably wanted you to speed up. I always go around 6-8 mph over the limit when I see a cop. Higher on the freeway or roads with similar limits.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 01, 2021, 12:23:31 PM
Quote from: US 89 on May 01, 2021, 12:17:35 PM
To be honest, probably the most fear-inducing experience you can have as a driver is being tailgated by a cop. I once had a cop tail me all the way from Talbotton to Geneva GA along US 80, which I realize is less than 8 miles but it felt a hell of a lot longer. The speed limit was 55, I was going exactly 55, and he rode my ass so close I was nervous to slow down where the limit drops heading into Geneva simply out of fear he would rear-end me. And of course, he did not take advantage of the passing lane that appeared halfway through. He was most definitely looking for a reason to pull me over with my Utah plates.
He probably wanted you to speed up. I always go around 6-8 mph over the limit when I see a cop. Higher on the freeway or roads with similar limits.
Heh, whereas in May 1997 I was driving south on I-59 in Georgia and a cop was behind me hitting me repeatedly with instant-on X-band (I was using a Valentine One). I set the cruise control at 68 mph in the 70-mph zone and just left it there all the way to the Alabama state line, and the stupid cop kept blasting his radar at me all the way to the state line, at which point he turned around. I kept wondering why he was bothering, as it should have been obvious I knew he was there, even with Virginia plates that might suggest I didn't have a radar detector.
Quote from: US 89 on May 01, 2021, 12:17:35 PM
To be honest, probably the most fear-inducing experience you can have as a driver is being tailgated by a cop.
You've got that right. The last time I got pulled over I was right in front of Riverwind Casino in Goldsby and was being tailed by an OHP cruiser. I looked down and made damn sure my cruise was set for 45 exactly–only to look up and notice I was sailing right through the red light at Bankers Drive. Naturally he turned on his lights and pulled me over.
He walks up to the window, says something like "Well, you weren't speeding, but you didn't even try to stop for that red light, did you?" And I told him, "Yeah, I saw you in the rearview, had my eye on the speedometer, and didn't even notice the light had changed." He takes my license and registration, runs them, brings them back, and says "Be more careful next time", and that was it.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on May 01, 2021, 09:43:20 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 30, 2021, 11:58:31 AM
The presence of cops running radar conveys the threat of legal consequences, which indirectly controls traffic through driver compliance
way back when when i lived in a little town called nunn...
i went up to the sheriff's car that was parked kinda behind a grain elevator, clearly shooting radar down us-85. i approached correctly, said i had a question. he's like 'sure!'
i asked him what he was doing, and he replied 'we're trying to slow traffic down through here'. the speed limit goes from 65 to i think 45 or 50 at the town line.
i said 'well, why don't you park where you can be seen? no one in their right mind is going to speed past you. if you're just radarring people, that doesn't slow them down.'
he didn't have a coherent answer.
They make it so you never know when a cop might be clocking your speed. That way, you don't only slow down when you see a cop car, but rather keep your speed down just in case there's one you don't see.
Quote from: US 89 on May 01, 2021, 12:17:35 PM
To be honest, probably the most fear-inducing experience you can have as a driver is being tailgated by a cop.
On the first short-term missions trip I led to Mexico, I was leading another car along the free portion of Carr. Fed. 40 between Saltillo and Paila. The speed limit there is 80 km/h, and we were driving a consistent 105 km/h–which is typical there. I looked in my mirror and saw a
federal close behind us. He must have come zooming up, because I look in my mirror fairly often and hadn't noticed him earlier. He didn't have his lights on, but he wasn't passing us either. The highway was razor-straight with hardly any oncoming traffic, but still he just tailed us for several miles. Eventually, he finally passed us, then quickly got off the highway at a small junction and got out of the car to do who knows what (we were gone by then).
I never slowed down from my 105 km/h the whole time. And he never pulled us over. When we got to our destination, the other driver told me he'd never been so nervous in his life!
Quote from: jakeroot on May 01, 2021, 12:23:31 PM
I always go around 6-8 mph over the limit when I see a cop. Higher on the freeway or roads with similar limits.
That's a great way to get yourself a speeding ticket.
Quote from: US 89 on May 01, 2021, 12:17:35 PM
To be honest, probably the most fear-inducing experience you can have as a driver is being tailgated by a cop.
I have experienced this a number of times as well. My solution is usually to continue for a few miles to see if they'll give up, and if they don't, I pull into a public area like a shopping center parking lot or mall driveway and loop around. Most of the time they'll go away, thinking I'm going inside.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 03, 2021, 08:53:14 AM
I pull into a public area like a shopping center parking lot or mall driveway and loop around. Most of the time they'll go away, thinking I'm going inside.
And the times they don't go away?
Quote from: vdeane on May 03, 2021, 12:54:08 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 03, 2021, 08:53:14 AM
I pull into a public area like a shopping center parking lot or mall driveway and loop around. Most of the time they'll go away, thinking I'm going inside.
And the times they don't go away?
At that point, invite them in for a donut, since they're probably gonna ding you anyway.
Quote from: vdeane on May 03, 2021, 12:54:08 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 03, 2021, 08:53:14 AM
I pull into a public area like a shopping center parking lot or mall driveway and loop around. Most of the time they'll go away, thinking I'm going inside.
And the times they don't go away?
Then you get out, go in, and look around or buy something.
My V1 alerted me to the approaching presence of a cop yesterday, then the Kentucky State Police trooper revealed himself in my rear-view mirror. I was in a 35 mph zone that soon increased to 45 mph, and I kept at or very near the speed limit. Thought about turning into a grocery store parking lot, but kept going. The cop never got right up on my bumper and never made any effort to pass me despite having opportunities. The 45 zone turned to 55, and he kept pace with me. Only when the road grew a passing lane and I moved over to the right did he go by, and then he sped off and it wasn't long before he was out of view.
Quote from: vdeane on May 03, 2021, 12:54:08 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 03, 2021, 08:53:14 AM
I pull into a public area like a shopping center parking lot or mall driveway and loop around. Most of the time they'll go away, thinking I'm going inside.
And the times they don't go away?
If they
still don't go away, they're probably not going to. At that point, you could either choose to keep driving around hoping they will, or to get out and ask if you can help them. It's pretty rare that this happens though, they almost never continue following you for more than a half hour or so. A last resort would be to go to your home or private property, they legally cannot enter there without a warrant or probable cause. An old coworker of mine actually had to do this once when a Tennessee Highway Patrol trooper tailgated him for about 30 miles with his kids in the car.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 03, 2021, 08:53:14 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 01, 2021, 12:23:31 PM
I always go around 6-8 mph over the limit when I see a cop. Higher on the freeway or roads with similar limits.
That's a great way to get yourself a speeding ticket.
Not from my experience. 6 to 8 is the standard "over" amount in the areas I drive (for example, 31-33 in a 25 is more than OK). Going exactly the limit is telling the cop you're hiding something.
Less than 10 over on the freeway has a 0% chance of getting stopped unless there's something else going on (group of teens, missing front plate, heavily tinted windows, etc).
How about speeding past a car cause they are driving too slow.
Quote from: tolbs17 on May 04, 2021, 12:17:57 PM
How about speeding past a car cause they are driving too slow.
In Washington State, you can exceed the speed limit to overtake a vehicle. But only if the overtaken vehicle is not going the limit. Relevant law:
RCW 46.61.425 (https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.425)On a multi-lane roadway, the car going much slower than everyone else is more likely to catch the attention of the cop.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 04, 2021, 12:29:30 PM
In Washington State, you can exceed the speed limit to overtake a vehicle. But only if the overtaken vehicle is not going the limit. Relevant law: RCW 46.61.425 (https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.425)
That seems like it would be rather difficult to prove from the officer's point of view. What did he do, clock you both at the same time?
Quote from: tolbs17 on May 04, 2021, 12:17:57 PM
How about speeding past a car cause they are driving too slow.
That's Crash_It's job.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 04, 2021, 01:04:54 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on May 04, 2021, 12:17:57 PM
How about speeding past a car cause they are driving too slow.
That's Crash_It's job.
Hey, quite dropping the mic like that. It's bad for the equipment.
Quote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 12:58:18 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 04, 2021, 12:29:30 PM
In Washington State, you can exceed the speed limit to overtake a vehicle. But only if the overtaken vehicle is not going the limit. Relevant law: RCW 46.61.425 (https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=46.61.425)
That seems like it would be rather difficult to prove from the officer's point of view. What did he do, clock you both at the same time?
I think it's a 'benefit of the doubt' situation. If a cop witnesses an overtake, I think the rule of thumb is to just put the radar gun down.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 04, 2021, 11:49:18 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 03, 2021, 08:53:14 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 01, 2021, 12:23:31 PM
I always go around 6-8 mph over the limit when I see a cop. Higher on the freeway or roads with similar limits.
That's a great way to get yourself a speeding ticket.
Not from my experience. 6 to 8 is the standard "over" amount in the areas I drive (for example, 31-33 in a 25 is more than OK). Going exactly the limit is telling the cop you're hiding something.
Less than 10 over on the freeway has a 0% chance of getting stopped unless there's something else going on (group of teens, missing front plate, heavily tinted windows, etc).
You ever heard of revenue-hungry small towns? They will set up speed traps (like where the limit drops) and literally ticket you for 4-5 mph over. And you cannot convince me that a driver can go 9 over on any freeway and have a guarantee that they won't get pulled over. Not even close. That's 74 in a 65, or 84 in a 75, I've seen plenty of people get ticketed for those speeds or less.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 04, 2021, 02:10:04 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 04, 2021, 11:49:18 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 03, 2021, 08:53:14 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 01, 2021, 12:23:31 PM
I always go around 6-8 mph over the limit when I see a cop. Higher on the freeway or roads with similar limits.
That's a great way to get yourself a speeding ticket.
Not from my experience. 6 to 8 is the standard "over" amount in the areas I drive (for example, 31-33 in a 25 is more than OK). Going exactly the limit is telling the cop you're hiding something.
Less than 10 over on the freeway has a 0% chance of getting stopped unless there's something else going on (group of teens, missing front plate, heavily tinted windows, etc).
You ever heard of revenue-hungry small towns? They will set up speed traps (like where the limit drops) and literally ticket you for 4-5 mph over. And you cannot convince me that a driver can go 9 over on any freeway and have a guarantee that they won't get pulled over. Not even close. That's 74 in a 65, or 84 in a 75, I've seen plenty of people get ticketed for those speeds or less.
What exactly are you saying? That Jake is being dishonest about his own experience? More likely is that he hasn't done a lot of driving in places that match your description. I see your location is on the other side of the nation from his. How much driving have you done outside your own area?
FWIW, the only time I've ever been pulled over for less than 10 mph over the limit was on an Oklahoma turnpike, where they have tabs on the speed limit signs saying "strictly enforced". And that includes doing going by cops at 74 in 65 zones (Interstates all over Illinois before the limit was raised).
Quote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 02:18:28 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 04, 2021, 02:10:04 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 04, 2021, 11:49:18 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 03, 2021, 08:53:14 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 01, 2021, 12:23:31 PM
I always go around 6-8 mph over the limit when I see a cop. Higher on the freeway or roads with similar limits.
That's a great way to get yourself a speeding ticket.
Not from my experience. 6 to 8 is the standard "over" amount in the areas I drive (for example, 31-33 in a 25 is more than OK). Going exactly the limit is telling the cop you're hiding something.
Less than 10 over on the freeway has a 0% chance of getting stopped unless there's something else going on (group of teens, missing front plate, heavily tinted windows, etc).
You ever heard of revenue-hungry small towns? They will set up speed traps (like where the limit drops) and literally ticket you for 4-5 mph over. And you cannot convince me that a driver can go 9 over on any freeway and have a guarantee that they won't get pulled over. Not even close. That's 74 in a 65, or 84 in a 75, I've seen plenty of people get ticketed for those speeds or less.
What exactly are you saying? That Jake is being dishonest about his own experience? More likely is that he hasn't done a lot of driving in places that match your description. I see your location is on the other side of the nation from his. How much driving have you done outside your own area?
FWIW, the only time I've ever been pulled over for less than 10 mph over the limit was on an Oklahoma turnpike, where they have tabs on the speed limit signs saying "strictly enforced". And that includes doing going by cops at 74 in 65 zones (Interstates all over Illinois before the limit was raised).
I'm not delegitimizing or denying his experience at all. I'm simply saying that there are different realities, so his isn't all-encompassing (which is true for any of our experiences). I have done plenty of driving outside of my area, I've been in more than 3/4 of the states including yours. However, the only time I've been in Washington was in the back of a taxi on I-405. The driver stayed at around 64 MPH the entire time with the 60 MPH limit, and we only got passed every minute or so. There wasn't even that many police cars along the way either. I have never been pulled over in all of my driving, and I mainly attribute that to always trying my best to keep my speed within 5 over.
"Match your description"? What does that mean?
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 04, 2021, 07:19:17 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 02:18:28 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 04, 2021, 02:10:04 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 04, 2021, 11:49:18 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 03, 2021, 08:53:14 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 01, 2021, 12:23:31 PM
I always go around 6-8 mph over the limit when I see a cop. Higher on the freeway or roads with similar limits.
That's a great way to get yourself a speeding ticket.
Not from my experience. 6 to 8 is the standard "over" amount in the areas I drive (for example, 31-33 in a 25 is more than OK). Going exactly the limit is telling the cop you're hiding something.
Less than 10 over on the freeway has a 0% chance of getting stopped unless there's something else going on (group of teens, missing front plate, heavily tinted windows, etc).
You ever heard of revenue-hungry small towns? They will set up speed traps (like where the limit drops) and literally ticket you for 4-5 mph over. And you cannot convince me that a driver can go 9 over on any freeway and have a guarantee that they won't get pulled over. Not even close. That's 74 in a 65, or 84 in a 75, I've seen plenty of people get ticketed for those speeds or less.
What exactly are you saying? That Jake is being dishonest about his own experience? More likely is that he hasn't done a lot of driving in places that match your description. I see your location is on the other side of the nation from his. How much driving have you done outside your own area?
FWIW, the only time I've ever been pulled over for less than 10 mph over the limit was on an Oklahoma turnpike, where they have tabs on the speed limit signs saying "strictly enforced". And that includes doing going by cops at 74 in 65 zones (Interstates all over Illinois before the limit was raised).
I'm not delegitimizing or denying his experience at all. I'm simply saying that there are different realities, so his isn't all-encompassing (which is true for any of our experiences). I have done plenty of driving outside of my area, I've been in more than 3/4 of the states including yours. However, the only time I've been in Washington was in the back of a taxi on I-405. The driver stayed at around 64 MPH the entire time with the 60 MPH limit, and we only got passed every minute or so. There wasn't even that many police cars along the way either. I have never been pulled over in all of my driving, and I mainly attribute that to always trying my best to keep my speed within 5 over.
"Match your description"? What does that mean?
"Match your description" of small towns that are revenue hungry. That's a thing I've only seen in movies. To think it's a real thing is laughable to me. Cops around here don't just sit and write tickets for 5 over or something. Even in tiny little towns. People joke about it, but it's hardly a real thing.
Your experience of the 405 has not been my experience; perhaps it was limited by traffic? Also perhaps physics, as it's quite curvy and hilly. In the straights, and especially along other freeways like I-90 or I-5, average speeds are well in excess of the limit, at least in the left few lanes (no doubt there are people going closer to the limit in the right-most lanes). The 405 also moves wicked fast north of Bellevue with the express lanes setup. 70 (in a 60) is the minimum speed in the left lanes; 75 to 80 is more common when traffic isn't burdening the flow. Which is admittedly often.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 04, 2021, 11:29:07 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 04, 2021, 07:19:17 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 02:18:28 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 04, 2021, 02:10:04 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 04, 2021, 11:49:18 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 03, 2021, 08:53:14 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 01, 2021, 12:23:31 PM
I always go around 6-8 mph over the limit when I see a cop. Higher on the freeway or roads with similar limits.
That's a great way to get yourself a speeding ticket.
Not from my experience. 6 to 8 is the standard "over" amount in the areas I drive (for example, 31-33 in a 25 is more than OK). Going exactly the limit is telling the cop you're hiding something.
Less than 10 over on the freeway has a 0% chance of getting stopped unless there's something else going on (group of teens, missing front plate, heavily tinted windows, etc).
You ever heard of revenue-hungry small towns? They will set up speed traps (like where the limit drops) and literally ticket you for 4-5 mph over. And you cannot convince me that a driver can go 9 over on any freeway and have a guarantee that they won't get pulled over. Not even close. That's 74 in a 65, or 84 in a 75, I've seen plenty of people get ticketed for those speeds or less.
What exactly are you saying? That Jake is being dishonest about his own experience? More likely is that he hasn't done a lot of driving in places that match your description. I see your location is on the other side of the nation from his. How much driving have you done outside your own area?
FWIW, the only time I've ever been pulled over for less than 10 mph over the limit was on an Oklahoma turnpike, where they have tabs on the speed limit signs saying "strictly enforced". And that includes doing going by cops at 74 in 65 zones (Interstates all over Illinois before the limit was raised).
I'm not delegitimizing or denying his experience at all. I'm simply saying that there are different realities, so his isn't all-encompassing (which is true for any of our experiences). I have done plenty of driving outside of my area, I've been in more than 3/4 of the states including yours. However, the only time I've been in Washington was in the back of a taxi on I-405. The driver stayed at around 64 MPH the entire time with the 60 MPH limit, and we only got passed every minute or so. There wasn't even that many police cars along the way either. I have never been pulled over in all of my driving, and I mainly attribute that to always trying my best to keep my speed within 5 over.
"Match your description"? What does that mean?
"Match your description" of small towns that are revenue hungry. That's a thing I've only seen in movies. To think it's a real thing is laughable to me. Cops around here don't just sit and write tickets for 5 over or something. Even in tiny little towns. People joke about it, but it's hardly a real thing.
In my experience small towns are notorious for squeezing every dollar they can out of speeding fines from out-of-towners. Especially if you have out-of-state license plates. It is absolutely a real thing. See Mantua, Utah, which used to derive 1/3 of its revenue from an artificially lowered limit on US 89/91 ... which already bypasses the town. Wellington, Utah is also fairly well known for it but isn't nearly as blatant.
I will also add that this does apply to freeways too. On I-80 through the Park City area, the limit is 65 and Summit County cops will definitely pull you over if you're going more than 72 or so.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 04, 2021, 11:29:07 PM
"Match your description" of small towns that are revenue hungry. That's a thing I've only seen in movies. To think it's a real thing is laughable to me. Cops around here don't just sit and write tickets for 5 over or something. Even in tiny little towns. People joke about it, but it's hardly a real thing.
Come to small town New York or Ohio sometime. There are places that will very happily pull you over for 2 over and find everything wrong with your car to write a ticket for. I know because I see it frequently. There are towns out here who own one car...and said car is always running radar. Sometimes hidden between tombstones in a cemetery (I've seen that in multiple towns).
Rosendale WI is a notorious speed trap. WisDOT now recommends taking I-41 to US 151 instead of WI 26 from Oshkosh to Waupun to bypass Rosendale.
I wasn't trying to say that small town speed traps don't exist at all. Just that they're not really that common. But also that around here, it's not really a thing. Small towns don't usually have their own police departments, much less a cop permanently posted at the city line.
Getting stopped for two over is insane. I would love to see that hold up in court.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 05, 2021, 12:27:49 AM
Getting stopped for two over is insane. I would love to see that hold up in court.
I mean it's a waste of the police officer's time, but by exceeding the posted speed limit by any amount, you are technically breaking the law...
Quote from: jakeroot on May 04, 2021, 11:49:18 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 03, 2021, 08:53:14 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 01, 2021, 12:23:31 PM
I always go around 6-8 mph over the limit when I see a cop. Higher on the freeway or roads with similar limits.
That's a great way to get yourself a speeding ticket.
Not from my experience. 6 to 8 is the standard "over" amount in the areas I drive (for example, 31-33 in a 25 is more than OK). Going exactly the limit is telling the cop you're hiding something.
Less than 10 over on the freeway has a 0% chance of getting stopped unless there's something else going on (group of teens, missing front plate, heavily tinted windows, etc).
Going exactly the limit also robs the officer of a potential pretext for a speculative stop, though. An officer could theoretically stop you for a stated reason of 1 mph over if they wanted to stick their head in the window and look for something to nail you on. If you're going exactly the limit and there's nothing else wrong with your car that could be a pretext for a stop, they can think it's suspicious all they want but all they can do about it is run your plate.
The common wisdom in Oklahoma is that the tolerance is 5 mph, and I think most of my instances of getting pulled over have been in the 5-to-10-mph-over range, so that tracks. I don't risk anything more than 5+ unless I'm just not paying attention.
Quote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 02:18:28 PM
FWIW, the only time I've ever been pulled over for less than 10 mph over the limit was on an Oklahoma turnpike, where they have tabs on the speed limit signs saying "strictly enforced".
It's "NO TOLERANCE", actually, and they've started showing up on ODOT highways too, now that we apparently aren't signing minimum speeds anymore. I've always thought that was a silly plate because "SPEED LIMIT 70/NO TOLERANCE" kind of reads like they won't tolerate anyone doing the speed limit.
Quote from: US 89 on May 05, 2021, 12:49:47 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 05, 2021, 12:27:49 AM
Getting stopped for two over is insane. I would love to see that hold up in court.
I mean it's a waste of the police officer's time, but by exceeding the posted speed limit by any amount, you are technically breaking the law...
I just don't think any radar gun is accurate enough for a cop to bother with someone for 2-3 over. Combine that with numerous other possible factors (tire conditions, age of vehicle, speedometer accuracy) and it seems like it would be easy enough to get tossed. At the very least, stricken from the record. Since those factors don't usually stand up for more than 4 or 5 over, it's harder to get away with speeding beyond that. But then, getting stopped for 5 over is still nuts as far as I'm concerned. Less than 6 to 8 over along most surface roads would be quite unusual in my area (only likely if you're doing something else, as I previously stated). And even then, 10-15 over (say 55 to 60 in a 45) would be tolerated as long as you were going with traffic.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 05, 2021, 01:01:43 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 04, 2021, 11:49:18 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 03, 2021, 08:53:14 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 01, 2021, 12:23:31 PM
I always go around 6-8 mph over the limit when I see a cop. Higher on the freeway or roads with similar limits.
That's a great way to get yourself a speeding ticket.
Not from my experience. 6 to 8 is the standard "over" amount in the areas I drive (for example, 31-33 in a 25 is more than OK). Going exactly the limit is telling the cop you're hiding something.
Less than 10 over on the freeway has a 0% chance of getting stopped unless there's something else going on (group of teens, missing front plate, heavily tinted windows, etc).
Going exactly the limit also robs the officer of a potential pretext for a speculative stop, though. An officer could theoretically stop you for a stated reason of 1 mph over if they wanted to stick their head in the window and look for something to nail you on. If you're going exactly the limit and there's nothing else wrong with your car that could be a pretext for a stop, they can think it's suspicious all they want but all they can do about it is run your plate.
To me, it's about not looking suspect. You know why they say not to buy a red car? Same reason you don't go exactly the speed limit: it's suspect in and of itself, even if it's not an actual reason you could get stopped. People don't drive exactly the limit. It's just not something we do. So as a cop, when you roll up on someone going exactly the limit, well you can't stop them, but maybe follow them for a bit to see what's up. After all, it's unusual behavior.
The debate needs to be removed from this thread. This thread is supposed to be posting photos and the like of signs.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 05, 2021, 01:01:43 AM
Going exactly the limit also robs the officer of a potential pretext for a speculative stop, though. An officer could theoretically stop you for a stated reason of 1 mph over if they wanted to stick their head in the window and look for something to nail you on. If you're going exactly the limit and there's nothing else wrong with your car that could be a pretext for a stop, they can think it's suspicious all they want but all they can do about it is run your plate.
This is true. If you're stopped for even 1 over and a cop sees something illegal in your car, the evidence stands in court.
One thing I find funny is that a lot of people don't realize that a cop can detect your speed from an angle. They slow down as they approach the cop, thinking their radar only runs in a straight line across the freeway/road or something. But in reality, they probably already knew your original speed before you even noticed them.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 05, 2021, 07:53:27 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 05, 2021, 01:01:43 AM
Going exactly the limit also robs the officer of a potential pretext for a speculative stop, though. An officer could theoretically stop you for a stated reason of 1 mph over if they wanted to stick their head in the window and look for something to nail you on. If you're going exactly the limit and there's nothing else wrong with your car that could be a pretext for a stop, they can think it's suspicious all they want but all they can do about it is run your plate.
This is true. If you're stopped for even 1 over and a cop sees something illegal in your car, the evidence stands in court.
Stands to reason that you could exceed the limit (to a point) without trouble if you're not doing something else illegal. That has been my experience in Washington: speed alone is not a reason to stop someone, unless they are going
well beyond the posted limit
and are going faster than the general speed of traffic.. So if you're not doing anything else to get stopped (using phone, left lane camping, expired tabs), cops likely won't bother you.
Quote from: Rothman on May 05, 2021, 06:58:56 AM
The debate needs to be removed from this thread. This thread is supposed to be posting photos and the like of signs.
I would agree, but then it does relate to a post from a couple pages ago. So it's not completely off-topic.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 05, 2021, 12:27:49 AMGetting stopped for two over is insane. I would love to see that hold up in court.
It does. All the time.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 04, 2021, 07:19:17 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 04, 2021, 02:18:28 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 04, 2021, 02:10:04 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 04, 2021, 11:49:18 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 03, 2021, 08:53:14 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 01, 2021, 12:23:31 PM
I always go around 6-8 mph over the limit when I see a cop. Higher on the freeway or roads with similar limits.
That's a great way to get yourself a speeding ticket.
Not from my experience. 6 to 8 is the standard "over" amount in the areas I drive (for example, 31-33 in a 25 is more than OK). Going exactly the limit is telling the cop you're hiding something.
Less than 10 over on the freeway has a 0% chance of getting stopped unless there's something else going on (group of teens, missing front plate, heavily tinted windows, etc).
You ever heard of revenue-hungry small towns? They will set up speed traps (like where the limit drops) and literally ticket you for 4-5 mph over. And you cannot convince me that a driver can go 9 over on any freeway and have a guarantee that they won't get pulled over. Not even close. That's 74 in a 65, or 84 in a 75, I've seen plenty of people get ticketed for those speeds or less.
What exactly are you saying? That Jake is being dishonest about his own experience? More likely is that he hasn't done a lot of driving in places that match your description. I see your location is on the other side of the nation from his. How much driving have you done outside your own area?
FWIW, the only time I've ever been pulled over for less than 10 mph over the limit was on an Oklahoma turnpike, where they have tabs on the speed limit signs saying "strictly enforced". And that includes doing going by cops at 74 in 65 zones (Interstates all over Illinois before the limit was raised).
I'm not delegitimizing or denying his experience at all. I'm simply saying that there are different realities, so his isn't all-encompassing (which is true for any of our experiences). I have done plenty of driving outside of my area, I've been in more than 3/4 of the states including yours. However, the only time I've been in Washington was in the back of a taxi on I-405. The driver stayed at around 64 MPH the entire time with the 60 MPH limit, and we only got passed every minute or so. There wasn't even that many police cars along the way either. I have never been pulled over in all of my driving, and I mainly attribute that to always trying my best to keep my speed within 5 over.
"Match your description"? What does that mean?
It all depends on where you are, of course. Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might. Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all. There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected. Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything. So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30. It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are.
I once overtook a police officer on a two-lane highway in southern Illinois while going 7 over the limit in a box truck. He didn't care.
I once had a police officer rev his engine and point to his radar gun while I was inching by him at 1 mph over the limit on a divided highway just west of Tulsa.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 05, 2021, 02:17:22 AM
To me, it's about not looking suspect. You know why they say not to buy a red car? Same reason you don't go exactly the speed limit: it's suspect in and of itself, even if it's not an actual reason you could get stopped. People don't drive exactly the limit. It's just not something we do. So as a cop, when you roll up on someone going exactly the limit, well you can't stop them, but maybe follow them for a bit to see what's up. After all, it's unusual behavior.
Again, though, why do I care about looking suspect if the thing that is making me suspect is compliant with the law? I really don't care what cops think of me if they don't have any means of doing anything about it.
I always figured if they ran my radar and I was doing 70 (or whatever) on the dot, rather than finding it suspicious, they would just sigh and go "damn it, they saw me" and hope to catch the next driver unawares.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 05, 2021, 07:53:27 AM
One thing I find funny is that a lot of people don't realize that a cop can detect your speed from an angle. They slow down as they approach the cop, thinking their radar only runs in a straight line across the freeway/road or something. But in reality, they probably already knew your original speed before you even noticed them.
I think the reason why people slow down is hoping that the cop hasn't turned on the radar gun yet/isn't looking at the readout/they haven't entered the detection zone/been "focused on" yet. I'm not entirely sure how radar guns work but I think it's reasonable to assume they can't give the speed of every car going by at all times.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 05, 2021, 01:44:40 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 05, 2021, 07:53:27 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 05, 2021, 01:01:43 AM
Going exactly the limit also robs the officer of a potential pretext for a speculative stop, though. An officer could theoretically stop you for a stated reason of 1 mph over if they wanted to stick their head in the window and look for something to nail you on. If you're going exactly the limit and there's nothing else wrong with your car that could be a pretext for a stop, they can think it's suspicious all they want but all they can do about it is run your plate.
This is true. If you're stopped for even 1 over and a cop sees something illegal in your car, the evidence stands in court.
Stands to reason that you could exceed the limit (to a point) without trouble if you're not doing something else illegal. That has been my experience in Washington: speed alone is not a reason to stop someone, unless they are going well beyond the posted limit and are going faster than the general speed of traffic.. So if you're not doing anything else to get stopped (using phone, left lane camping, expired tabs), cops likely won't bother you.
Quote from: Rothman on May 05, 2021, 06:58:56 AM
The debate needs to be removed from this thread. This thread is supposed to be posting photos and the like of signs.
I would agree, but then it does relate to a post from a couple pages ago. So it's not completely off-topic.
No, I think at this point it's completely off topic and I think it should be split off.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 05, 2021, 03:35:49 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 05, 2021, 02:17:22 AM
To me, it's about not looking suspect. You know why they say not to buy a red car? Same reason you don't go exactly the speed limit: it's suspect in and of itself, even if it's not an actual reason you could get stopped. People don't drive exactly the limit. It's just not something we do. So as a cop, when you roll up on someone going exactly the limit, well you can't stop them, but maybe follow them for a bit to see what's up. After all, it's unusual behavior.
Again, though, why do I care about looking suspect if the thing that is making me suspect is compliant with the law? I really don't care what cops think of me if they don't have any means of doing anything about it.
I always figured if they ran my radar and I was doing 70 (or whatever) on the dot, rather than finding it suspicious, they would just sigh and go "damn it, they saw me" and hope to catch the next driver unawares.
But you do care:
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 01, 2021, 05:30:07 PM
Quote from: US 89 on May 01, 2021, 12:17:35 PM
To be honest, probably the most fear-inducing experience you can have as a driver is being tailgated by a cop.
You've got that right.
I've never had a cop "tail" me before, unless it was just them commuting with the rest of us. And I certainly wouldn't be scared about it if I wasn't doing anything that I thought would get me pulled over. I suppose they could stop me for speeding, assuming I was exceeding the limit, but
from my experience that doesn't happen.
Now, I do recognize that huge swaths of this country are inhabited by Barney Fifes looking to make a quick buck. So no, I'm not going to strut through some tiny town at 10 over the limit and not expect to at least get stopped. But
day to day, the Seattle metro area is not the kind of place where you would get stopped just for exceeding the limit.
We need to separate the chit chat into a separate thread from the photos.
Quote from: Rothman on May 05, 2021, 04:01:13 PM
We need to separate the chit chat into a separate thread from the photos.
This is "General Highway Talk", not "Photos, Videos, and More".
We could move it but it would get locked immediately. Better for everyone if we all just agreed to disagree, frankly.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on May 05, 2021, 02:06:18 PM
It all depends on where you are, of course. Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might. Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all. There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected. Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything. So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30. It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are.
And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture. I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.
In Massachusetts, it seems like you get about a 15 mph cushion on freeways unless a cop is having a bad day. I could be wrong, however.
Quote from: vdeane on May 05, 2021, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on May 05, 2021, 02:06:18 PM
It all depends on where you are, of course. Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might. Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all. There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected. Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything. So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30. It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are.
And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture. I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.
The problem is that you want to have
some tolerance, because vehicle speedometers wear out and get miscalibrated, and so do radar guns. Even if both were perfect, going over the limit by a few mph is such a minor infraction it feels cheap to enforce it. It's easy for speed to vary by one or two mph just because you're going down a hill.
It then turns into a camel's-nose sort of problem.
Quote from: vdeane on May 05, 2021, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on May 05, 2021, 02:06:18 PM
It all depends on where you are, of course. Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might. Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all. There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected. Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything. So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30. It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are.
And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture. I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.
In an ideal world, up to 5mph would be tolerated but over that would be grounds for a ticket. That can only be the case if speed limits are posted reasonably.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:18:16 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 05, 2021, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on May 05, 2021, 02:06:18 PM
It all depends on where you are, of course. Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might. Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all. There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected. Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything. So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30. It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are.
And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture. I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.
In an ideal world, up to 5mph would be tolerated but over that would be grounds for a ticket. That can only be the case if speed limits are posted reasonably.
The problem is that in many states, a ticket for speeding 1 over is the same class of traffic infraction (same fines, points, etc) as speeding 10 over. For example, here in NY, the least serious speeding ticket you can get is a "1-10 MPH over" ticket. Then it's 11-20, 21-30, and so on. I think states should set aside a category of speeding tickets specifically for offenses of 5 MPH over or less. The penalty could be just a fine and no points or convictions on your record. This would allow someone to speed a little to keep up with the flow of traffic without having to fear a ticket as much.
I heard somewhere that rain messes with radar b/c it measures the speed of the rain instead of the ve hickle.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 05, 2021, 10:39:45 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:18:16 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 05, 2021, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on May 05, 2021, 02:06:18 PM
It all depends on where you are, of course. Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might. Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all. There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected. Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything. So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30. It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are.
And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture. I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.
In an ideal world, up to 5mph would be tolerated but over that would be grounds for a ticket. That can only be the case if speed limits are posted reasonably.
The problem is that in many states, a ticket for speeding 1 over is the same class of traffic infraction (same fines, points, etc) as speeding 10 over. For example, here in NY, the least serious speeding ticket you can get is a "1-10 MPH over" ticket. Then it's 11-20, 21-30, and so on. I think states should set aside a category of speeding tickets specifically for offenses of 5 MPH over or less. The penalty could be just a fine and no points or convictions on your record. This would allow someone to speed a little to keep up with the flow of traffic without having to fear a ticket as much.
I would still have a margin or error with the speed limit. Something like 2-3 mph.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:42:21 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 05, 2021, 10:39:45 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:18:16 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 05, 2021, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on May 05, 2021, 02:06:18 PM
It all depends on where you are, of course. Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might. Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all. There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected. Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything. So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30. It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are.
And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture. I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.
In an ideal world, up to 5mph would be tolerated but over that would be grounds for a ticket. That can only be the case if speed limits are posted reasonably.
The problem is that in many states, a ticket for speeding 1 over is the same class of traffic infraction (same fines, points, etc) as speeding 10 over. For example, here in NY, the least serious speeding ticket you can get is a "1-10 MPH over" ticket. Then it's 11-20, 21-30, and so on. I think states should set aside a category of speeding tickets specifically for offenses of 5 MPH over or less. The penalty could be just a fine and no points or convictions on your record. This would allow someone to speed a little to keep up with the flow of traffic without having to fear a ticket as much.
I would still have a margin or error with the speed limit. Something like 2-3 mph.
Well then I guess that would mean up to an 8 mph tolerance before a serious speeding ticket. Like 73 in a 65, radar tolerance reduces presumed speed to 70, which is 5 over and only gets the "5 or less" offense. Kinda defeats the purpose but there's really nothing we can do about the conflict between radar accuracy and the law's requirement for evidence to be precise.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 05, 2021, 10:52:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:42:21 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 05, 2021, 10:39:45 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:18:16 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 05, 2021, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on May 05, 2021, 02:06:18 PM
It all depends on where you are, of course. Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might. Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all. There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected. Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything. So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30. It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are.
And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture. I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.
In an ideal world, up to 5mph would be tolerated but over that would be grounds for a ticket. That can only be the case if speed limits are posted reasonably.
The problem is that in many states, a ticket for speeding 1 over is the same class of traffic infraction (same fines, points, etc) as speeding 10 over. For example, here in NY, the least serious speeding ticket you can get is a "1-10 MPH over" ticket. Then it's 11-20, 21-30, and so on. I think states should set aside a category of speeding tickets specifically for offenses of 5 MPH over or less. The penalty could be just a fine and no points or convictions on your record. This would allow someone to speed a little to keep up with the flow of traffic without having to fear a ticket as much.
I would still have a margin or error with the speed limit. Something like 2-3 mph.
Well then I guess that would mean up to an 8 mph tolerance before a serious speeding ticket. Like 73 in a 65, radar tolerance reduces presumed speed to 70, which is 5 over and only gets the "5 or less" offense. Kinda defeats the purpose but there's really nothing we can do about the conflict between radar accuracy and the law's requirement for evidence to be precise.
Uh yeah. How accurate are radars exactly?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:56:17 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 05, 2021, 10:52:09 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:42:21 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 05, 2021, 10:39:45 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 10:18:16 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 05, 2021, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on May 05, 2021, 02:06:18 PM
It all depends on where you are, of course. Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might. Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all. There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected. Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything. So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30. It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are.
And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture. I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.
In an ideal world, up to 5mph would be tolerated but over that would be grounds for a ticket. That can only be the case if speed limits are posted reasonably.
The problem is that in many states, a ticket for speeding 1 over is the same class of traffic infraction (same fines, points, etc) as speeding 10 over. For example, here in NY, the least serious speeding ticket you can get is a "1-10 MPH over" ticket. Then it's 11-20, 21-30, and so on. I think states should set aside a category of speeding tickets specifically for offenses of 5 MPH over or less. The penalty could be just a fine and no points or convictions on your record. This would allow someone to speed a little to keep up with the flow of traffic without having to fear a ticket as much.
I would still have a margin or error with the speed limit. Something like 2-3 mph.
Well then I guess that would mean up to an 8 mph tolerance before a serious speeding ticket. Like 73 in a 65, radar tolerance reduces presumed speed to 70, which is 5 over and only gets the "5 or less" offense. Kinda defeats the purpose but there's really nothing we can do about the conflict between radar accuracy and the law's requirement for evidence to be precise.
Uh yeah. How accurate are radars exactly?
Beats me. :hmmm:
I usually run up to 8mph above then when I get a front door I follow them far enough behind & watch my rearviews'.
I couldnt remember my last speed tic until IL got me recently on I 24 for 91 in a 70 , that lapse of attention cost $164. I think that last county in IL (Massac county) was well known for radar back when nationwide speed was 55. Remember those days aargh!!! Lucky I was in my car or I'd of been out of work.
My two cents: I always go the speed limit (except when passing where going the speed limit would otherwise be dangerous) because I know the day I decide to speed, a cop will ticket me, and I don't want to incur that risk. I'd imagine getting ticketed for 2-3 over would be hard to fight in court, but I'd imagine being ticketed for impeding the flow the traffic by going the speed limit would be easy to fight off.
Quote from: CoreySamson on May 05, 2021, 11:23:38 PM
My two cents: I always go the speed limit (except when passing where going the speed limit would otherwise be dangerous) because I know the day I decide to speed, a cop will ticket me, and I don't want to incur that risk. I'd imagine getting ticketed for 2-3 over would be hard to fight in court, but I'd imagine being ticketed for impeding the flow the traffic by going the speed limit would be easy to fight off.
Just make sure to travel in the right lane.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 11:26:02 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on May 05, 2021, 11:23:38 PM
My two cents: I always go the speed limit (except when passing where going the speed limit would otherwise be dangerous) because I know the day I decide to speed, a cop will ticket me, and I don't want to incur that risk. I'd imagine getting ticketed for 2-3 over would be hard to fight in court, but I'd imagine being ticketed for impeding the flow the traffic by going the speed limit would be easy to fight off.
Just make sure to travel in the right lane.
Of course. I nearly always stay in the right lane unless I need to pass or turn left. If the road is 3 lanes or more one way, then I choose a middle lane. Gives me more escape options.
Quote from: CoreySamson on May 05, 2021, 11:28:22 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 11:26:02 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on May 05, 2021, 11:23:38 PM
My two cents: I always go the speed limit (except when passing where going the speed limit would otherwise be dangerous) because I know the day I decide to speed, a cop will ticket me, and I don't want to incur that risk. I'd imagine getting ticketed for 2-3 over would be hard to fight in court, but I'd imagine being ticketed for impeding the flow the traffic by going the speed limit would be easy to fight off.
Just make sure to travel in the right lane.
Of course. I nearly always stay in the right lane unless I need to pass or turn left. If the road is 3 lanes or more one way, then I choose a middle lane. Gives me more escape options.
Why would you need escape options on a 3 lane highway that requires staying in the middle lane, that don't exist on a 2 lane roadway?
Quote from: CoreySamson on May 05, 2021, 11:28:22 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 11:26:02 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on May 05, 2021, 11:23:38 PM
My two cents: I always go the speed limit (except when passing where going the speed limit would otherwise be dangerous) because I know the day I decide to speed, a cop will ticket me, and I don't want to incur that risk. I'd imagine getting ticketed for 2-3 over would be hard to fight in court, but I'd imagine being ticketed for impeding the flow the traffic by going the speed limit would be easy to fight off.
Just make sure to travel in the right lane.
Of course. I nearly always stay in the right lane unless I need to pass or turn left. If the road is 3 lanes or more one way, then I choose a middle lane. Gives me more escape options.
Although you live in Texas which has much more reasonable speed limits than Massachusetts.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 06, 2021, 12:02:28 AM
Quote from: CoreySamson on May 05, 2021, 11:28:22 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 05, 2021, 11:26:02 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on May 05, 2021, 11:23:38 PM
My two cents: I always go the speed limit (except when passing where going the speed limit would otherwise be dangerous) because I know the day I decide to speed, a cop will ticket me, and I don't want to incur that risk. I'd imagine getting ticketed for 2-3 over would be hard to fight in court, but I'd imagine being ticketed for impeding the flow the traffic by going the speed limit would be easy to fight off.
Just make sure to travel in the right lane.
Of course. I nearly always stay in the right lane unless I need to pass or turn left. If the road is 3 lanes or more one way, then I choose a middle lane. Gives me more escape options.
Although you live in Texas which has much more reasonable speed limits than Massachusetts.
Except the Houston area, which he is in, where speed limits are restricted to 65 mph until well outside the metro (except Toll SH-99 which is 70-75 mph), and 60 mph on urban interstates.
In traditional Texas fashion, the 65 mph zones should be 75 mph, with 65-70 mph on the urban interstates. That's the method followed in Dallas-Fort Worth, San Antonio, and any other metro in Texas.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 06, 2021, 12:36:52 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 06, 2021, 12:02:28 AM
Although you live in Texas which has much more reasonable speed limits than Massachusetts.
Except the Houston area, which he is in, where speed limits are restricted to 65 mph until well outside the metro (except Toll SH-99 which is 70-75 mph), and 60 mph on urban interstates.
Not great, but still more reasonable than Massachusetts... and most of the Northeast for that matter.
Quote from: webny99 on May 06, 2021, 07:50:28 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 06, 2021, 12:36:52 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 06, 2021, 12:02:28 AM
Although you live in Texas which has much more reasonable speed limits than Massachusetts.
Except the Houston area, which he is in, where speed limits are restricted to 65 mph until well outside the metro (except Toll SH-99 which is 70-75 mph), and 60 mph on urban interstates.
Not great, but still more reasonable than Massachusetts... and most of the Northeast for that matter.
Yes, in the northeast all those roads would be 55.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 06, 2021, 10:17:06 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 06, 2021, 07:50:28 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 06, 2021, 12:36:52 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 06, 2021, 12:02:28 AM
Although you live in Texas which has much more reasonable speed limits than Massachusetts.
Except the Houston area, which he is in, where speed limits are restricted to 65 mph until well outside the metro (except Toll SH-99 which is 70-75 mph), and 60 mph on urban interstates.
Not great, but still more reasonable than Massachusetts... and most of the Northeast for that matter.
Yes, in the northeast all those roads would be 55.
True, although the 65 mph outside and rural limits are similar to the Northeast, with the obvious exception of a couple freeways that change into non-limited-access highways that "act" as freeways in terms of free-flow and traffic volume maintain 65 mph (and then bump to 75 mph once far enough away from the metro, usually outside the commuter range) as opposed to lowering to 55 mph as they would in the Northeast.
Quote from: CoreySamson on May 05, 2021, 11:28:22 PM
If the road is 3 lanes or more one way, then I choose a middle lane.
Geez, I hate it when people drive slower than everyone else, but still refuse to get into the right lane.
The right lane should be for just plain old driving.
The middle lane should be for people who need to pass those drivers.
The left lane should be for people who need to pass
them.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 06, 2021, 10:17:06 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 06, 2021, 07:50:28 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 06, 2021, 12:36:52 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 06, 2021, 12:02:28 AM
Although you live in Texas which has much more reasonable speed limits than Massachusetts.
Except the Houston area, which he is in, where speed limits are restricted to 65 mph until well outside the metro (except Toll SH-99 which is 70-75 mph), and 60 mph on urban interstates.
Not great, but still more reasonable than Massachusetts... and most of the Northeast for that matter.
Yes, in the northeast all those roads would be 55.
It really is too slow. I don't get how northeastern states can post 55 on undivided two lane roads and then put that same speed limit on divided, controlled-access freeways that could have been 70. What's the point of the freeway then? The only benefits are no at-grade intersections and passing lanes?
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 06, 2021, 10:55:06 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 06, 2021, 10:17:06 AM
Quote from: webny99 on May 06, 2021, 07:50:28 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 06, 2021, 12:36:52 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on May 06, 2021, 12:02:28 AM
Although you live in Texas which has much more reasonable speed limits than Massachusetts.
Except the Houston area, which he is in, where speed limits are restricted to 65 mph until well outside the metro (except Toll SH-99 which is 70-75 mph), and 60 mph on urban interstates.
Not great, but still more reasonable than Massachusetts... and most of the Northeast for that matter.
Yes, in the northeast all those roads would be 55.
It really is too slow. I don't get how northeastern states can post 55 on undivided two lane roads and then put that same speed limit on divided, controlled-access freeways that could have been 70. What's the point of the freeway then? The only benefits are no at-grade intersections and passing lanes?
Exactly (although most two lane roads in New England are often no more than 50). It's New York that loves 55 and plasters in everywhere.
IMO... for the Northeast, along with the Mid-Atlantic, speed limits should be at least 65 mph on urban interstates, 65 mph on rural non-limited-access highways, and 70 mph on rural interstates.
Obviously, there's faster states, but that's a reasonable start.
Quote from: kphoger on May 06, 2021, 10:50:38 AM
Quote from: CoreySamson on May 05, 2021, 11:28:22 PM
If the road is 3 lanes or more one way, then I choose a middle lane.
Geez, I hate it when people drive slower than everyone else, but still refuse to get into the right lane.
The right lane should be for just plain old driving.
The middle lane should be for people who need to pass those drivers.
The left lane should be for people who need to pass them.
You would love I-95 northeast of Baltimore, especially north of exit 77 where it reduces to 3 lanes each way - I typically stick to the right lane unless passing, and more often than not I find myself passing platoon after platoon camped in the middle lane :pan:
As noticeable as it is throughout the entire stretch, it's always especially apparent on the Tydings Bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5794709,-76.1083955,3a,75y,83.51h,89.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBAnSbIzx30oqtvexoIvAVA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en).
Quote from: kphoger on May 06, 2021, 10:50:38 AM
Quote from: CoreySamson on May 05, 2021, 11:28:22 PM
If the road is 3 lanes or more one way, then I choose a middle lane.
Geez, I hate it when people drive slower than everyone else, but still refuse to get into the right lane.
The right lane should be for just plain old driving.
The middle lane should be for people who need to pass those drivers.
The left lane should be for people who need to pass them.
Huh? The left lane is for passing people who are in the act of passing other people?
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 06, 2021, 12:01:09 PM
Huh? The left lane is for passing people who are in the act of passing other people?
Basically, yes.
The left lane is for passing those in the middle lane. The middle lane is for passing those in the right lane.
Obviously, there are circumstances that interrupt this basic flow of traffic (heavy urban traffic, left-side exits, etc), but that's the general idea.
Camping out in the middle lane when nobody is in the right lane is basically saying,
Pfft, I can't be bothered to actually watch out for exiting/entering traffic, so I'll just let everyone else do that instead.
Quote from: jmacswimmer on May 06, 2021, 11:06:23 AM
As noticeable as it is throughout the entire stretch, it's always especially apparent on the Tydings Bridge (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.5794709,-76.1083955,3a,75y,83.51h,89.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBAnSbIzx30oqtvexoIvAVA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en).
I wonder if people are nervous of the right lane, even if they wouldn't admit it. That concrete barrier could certainly stand to be a bit higher.
WA requires all drivers to use the right lane on freeways unless passing. Middle lane hogging would not be permitted unless also passing. Far left is for passing those in the middle lane, who ideally are going slightly faster than traffic in the right lane.
Rural WA freeways are great places to see this in action: the right lane is 90% trucks (60mph limit) and those exiting; the middle lane are those passing trucks and other slow moving vehicles; the left lane is for those passing the middle lane traffic, who are generally going close to the limit (70mph) but are still passing the trucks who are mostly travelling near their limit.
Quote from: RCW 46.61.100
Upon all roadways having two or more lanes for traffic moving in the same direction, all vehicles shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic, except (a) when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction, (b) when traveling at a speed greater than the traffic flow, (c) when moving left to allow traffic to merge, or (d) when preparing for a left turn at an intersection, exit, or into a private road or driveway when such left turn is legally permitted.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 05, 2021, 10:16:18 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 05, 2021, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on May 05, 2021, 02:06:18 PM
It all depends on where you are, of course. Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won't get in trouble, but 10 over, you might. Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all. There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it's expected. Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything. So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30. It's like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are.
And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture. I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.
The problem is that you want to have some tolerance, because vehicle speedometers wear out and get miscalibrated, and so do radar guns. Even if both were perfect, going over the limit by a few mph is such a minor infraction it feels cheap to enforce it. It's easy for speed to vary by one or two mph just because you're going down a hill.
It then turns into a camel's-nose sort of problem.
Yes, but I would think 2-3 mph would be sufficient - 5 mph at the most. I'd rather have a national consistency of reasonably posted limits with that small buffer than the current situation where the speed limit is low (in NY, most everything urban is 55 max, with only 65 for rural areas) but the actual speed of travel is often 10-15 mph over that, except for a few places like DC or those speed trap towns in VA where one better not speed or they'll get a ticket.
Quote from: vdeane on May 05, 2021, 09:31:31 PM
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on May 05, 2021, 02:06:18 PM
It all depends on where you are, of course. Here in Texas, yes, you get on a rural freeway and do 9 over the speed limit, you won’t get in trouble, but 10 over, you might. Urban Freeways in the big 6 cities are almost a free-for-all. There might be a section of freeway with a 55 mph speed limit that people fly by at 75 (20 over!) and it’s expected. Then, there are the small towns that are notorious for being ticket writers, of course, and will pull you over for anything. So yes, I have passed a cop doing 82 in a 75 and no one cared and I got pulled over in Sanderson, TX for doing 35 in a 30. It’s like being a comedian, you have to know your room to know where the boundaries are.
And that right there is the major reason why I don't like the American "everybody speeds so the number on the sign is lower than the speed traffic is actually supposed to go" culture. I want a firm and nationally consistent rule where a speed limit of X means the same thing everywhere - not "speed limit X means any speed up to somewhere between Y and Z", where the actual speed you can go without getting a ticket cannot be precisely known when traveling to a new area, unless you happened to read a post here were someone mentioned it.
I agree with you with rules should be rules. Unfortunately, police officers are humans. With that comes leeway, and against popular opinion, leeway in your favor. Cops take into consideration benefit of the doubt, area (speeding on a rural highway vs. through a school zone in an urban area), general overall appearance of the situation and, if they do stop you, how polite you are. Remember, they are humans, so they make mistakes and also get into bad moods and get into good moods. Sometimes they are less likely to pull you over during the morning rush hour commute vs. speeding at 1:30 AM on a Saturday night/Sunday morning because they take in consideration that the morning rush hour guy is just trying to make it to work on time vs the 1:30 AM guy is probably up to no good (and you can say that. I was always up to no good at that time on a weekend night when I was younger). I got pulled over once for going 60 in a 45. It was a county road and I was in a company work truck. He let me go and said slow down. I deserved the ticket, but listening to me talk, he realized I was in a hurry because my boss wanted the job done very quickly (which was 100% true, I was on a crunch). Now, had I been speeding for the hell of it in a Camaro, then yes, he would have given me a ticket.
It’s no different than the strike zone being called differently from one umpire to the next in baseball. The rulebook clearly defines the exact parameters of the strike zone, yet no umpire calls it the same as the next. Or a football referee that doesn’t tolerate any crap between plays, while another may turn his back to comments only he can hear while everyone else in the stadium may be oblivious to it (or he will talk to them instead of flagging them). It’s because they too are humans. Some humans look at blanket situations differently than others. Plus, training is different in some municipalities than others. The local yokel in Small Town A was taught to not give anyone any leeway at all when speeding, yet the officer from Big City B was taught to not dwell too much on ticketing speeders because we have a serious murder problem in Big City B. Just that alone makes both officers playing under different rules. That is before you even throw in the human element. You may have gotten a ticket for doing 1 or 2 over and a warning later in life for doing 10 over because the first instance, the officer was having fights with his wife for months and took it out on his job, where the second officer was in a very reasonable mood. I know you are not supposed to take home to work, but we can’t help it sometimes. Humans are flawed. Its life. Sometimes you take the brunt of their flaws and sometimes you benefit from their flaws. Life isn’t fair, never has been, it isn’t now, and never will be. Sometimes you are caught in the middle of it not being fair and you get the slap for it, yet other times you benefit largely by it not being fair. When you benefit from it, you know there is someone else that is getting the brunt of it not being fair because you got rewarded. It averages out. As much as I would also like the consistency of “call it exactly like this”, as long as we have humans doing it, it will never be perfect across the board.
I have a friend who works in corrections. He told me different agencies set different standards, so the county sheriff might give 8 over but state patrol might only give 5 over in that same area.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 06, 2021, 01:23:49 PM
I have a friend who works in corrections. He told me different agencies set different standards, so the county sheriff might give 8 over but state patrol might only give 5 over in that same area.
Usually I've found state troopers to be more relaxed as opposed to local police who may be looking to make revenue.
Granted, the city police department here in Chesapeake have jurisdiction over the two underposted 55 mph freeways that pass through, and enforcement is non existent. Seeing police traveling 15-20 mph over is normal, if they're on the highway at all. I've only ever seen them once or twice actually posted up in my hundreds of times driving here, and people passed at 10-15 over without care.
An article came out when they opened the new, wide open US-17 relocation in the southern rural part of the city, they enforced it decently, but didn't even begin stops until over 70 mph in a posted 55 mph, and usually gave warnings. The highway easily invites high speeds like that, so it's reasonable. Should be 65 mph, but that's another story.
Now, city police
is more frequently seen on local streets and roadways, where enforcement is more appropriate than on the underposted highway. But if they ever truly wanted money, it's an easy source.
Quote from: kphoger on May 06, 2021, 10:50:38 AM
Quote from: CoreySamson on May 05, 2021, 11:28:22 PM
If the road is 3 lanes or more one way, then I choose a middle lane.
Geez, I hate it when people drive slower than everyone else, but still refuse to get into the right lane.
The right lane should be for just plain old driving.
The middle lane should be for people who need to pass those drivers.
The left lane should be for people who need to pass them.
This is a good rule of thumb, but in certain areas I find myself sticking to one of the middle lanes simply because the on-ramps have such vast amounts of traffic joining the Interstate that if I were to merge into the right lane I would be forced back into a middle lane in short order anyway. One instance that comes to mind is Johnson County KS–so many interchanges there seem to have a constant stream of cars entering bumper-to-bumper that, to reduce the number of lane changes and increase my own peace of mind, I stay in a middle lane until just before I exit.
... which is why, in my next post, I said...
Quote from: kphoger on May 06, 2021, 12:07:22 PM
Obviously, there are circumstances that interrupt this basic flow of traffic (heavy urban traffic, left-side exits, etc), ...
Quote from: kphoger on May 06, 2021, 03:33:11 PM
... which is why, in my next post, I said...
Quote from: kphoger on May 06, 2021, 12:07:22 PM
Obviously, there are circumstances that interrupt this basic flow of traffic (heavy urban traffic, left-side exits, etc), ...
But it would seem that there are people out there who, right or wrong, have it drilled into them to just avoid the right-most lane even in stretches without any merging. I'm sure in every urban area, there are vast stretches of freeway where the right-most lane is more than adequate for continuous driving, the occasional busy merge aside. But there's still people out there who just don't care and, as a rule of thumb, avoid that right-most lane until they have to exit, even if there are no cars for half a mile on their right, and they could probably make better time by using it!
Quote from: jakeroot on May 06, 2021, 04:33:50 PM
I'm sure in every urban area, there are vast stretches of freeway where the right-most lane is more than adequate for continuous driving, the occasional busy merge aside.
I'm not necessarily sure this is true, especially here in upstate NY and elsewhere across the country where 6-lane freeways are notably lacking.
This (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.1460706,-77.6008187/43.1024096,-77.5044084/@43.1265669,-77.5783144,13.17z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0!5m1!1e1?hl=en) is the longest continuous 6-lane freeway in the Rochester metro area, and I'm not sure there's even 3-4 miles where you could expect to use the right lane continuously (and the above-average exit density certainly doesn't help matters).
With that said, I'm sure counter-examples exist... but unfortunately they're not going to come from this area. The only extended 6-lane freeways are I-87 north of Albany (
54 miles (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/42.7019247,-73.8342337/43.4261661,-73.7205516/@43.0657796,-74.1265874,9.21z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0!5m1!1e1?hl=en)) and I-81 north of Syracuse (
17.5 miles (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.0554248,-76.1529726/43.2833318,-76.1254106/@43.1606989,-76.2078997,11z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0!5m1!1e1?hl=en)), and both of those have significant suburban/rural segments.
Quote from: webny99 on May 06, 2021, 05:12:59 PM
I'm not necessarily sure this is true, especially here in upstate NY and elsewhere across the country where 6-lane freeways are notably lacking. This (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.1460706,-77.6008187/43.1024096,-77.5044084/@43.1265669,-77.5783144,13.17z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0!5m1!1e1?hl=en) is the longest continuous 6-lane freeway in the Rochester metro area, and I'm not sure there's even 3-4 miles where you could expect to use the right lane continuously (and the above-average exit density certainly doesn't help matters).
Oh, come on. Drive that stretch at 12:30 AM, and then tell me you didn't see anyone driving in the middle or left lane for no reason.
Quote from: webny99 on May 06, 2021, 05:12:59 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 06, 2021, 04:33:50 PM
I'm sure in every urban area, there are vast stretches of freeway where the right-most lane is more than adequate for continuous driving, the occasional busy merge aside.
I'm not necessarily sure this is true, especially here in upstate NY and elsewhere across the country where 6-lane freeways are notably lacking. This (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.1460706,-77.6008187/43.1024096,-77.5044084/@43.1265669,-77.5783144,13.17z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0!5m1!1e1?hl=en) is the longest continuous 6-lane freeway in the Rochester metro area, and I'm not sure there's even 3-4 miles where you could expect to use the right lane continuously (and the above-average exit density certainly doesn't help matters).
I quite clearly stated "the occasional busy merge aside". I have never driven in any major city where every single on-ramp was a flood of cars onto the freeway, necessitating such common lane-changing on the part of outside-lane drivers that the right lane may as well end prior to the merge. On most freeways during regular hours, it should be easy enough to drive in the right lane and not have to deal with constant merging traffic, apart from some select on-ramps (mostly freeways).
The only place I've driven where it seems that most on-ramps are busy is Los Angeles, but they have ramp meters at most on-ramps like we do in Seattle, so it's not a constant battle like it would be without the meters.
Quote from: kphoger on May 06, 2021, 05:36:49 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 06, 2021, 05:12:59 PM
I'm not necessarily sure this is true, especially here in upstate NY and elsewhere across the country where 6-lane freeways are notably lacking. This (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/43.1460706,-77.6008187/43.1024096,-77.5044084/@43.1265669,-77.5783144,13.17z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0!5m1!1e1?hl=en) is the longest continuous 6-lane freeway in the Rochester metro area, and I'm not sure there's even 3-4 miles where you could expect to use the right lane continuously (and the above-average exit density certainly doesn't help matters).
Oh, come on. Drive that stretch at 12:30 AM, and then tell me you didn't see anyone driving in the middle or left lane for no reason.
You might, or you might not. But that's not really the point. Of course there are people that don't keep right like they should, but I was responding to the specific point that there are "vast stretches" where the right lane is "more than adequate".
Quote from: jakeroot on May 06, 2021, 07:02:40 PM
I quite clearly stated "the occasional busy merge aside". I have never driven in any major city where every single on-ramp was a flood of cars onto the freeway, necessitating such common lane-changing on the part of outside-lane drivers that the right lane may as well end prior to the merge. On most freeways during regular hours, it should be easy enough to drive in the right lane and not have to deal with constant merging traffic, apart from some select on-ramps (mostly freeways).
The only place I've driven where it seems that most on-ramps are busy is Los Angeles, but they have ramp meters at most on-ramps like we do in Seattle, so it's not a constant battle like it would be without the meters.
Exit density plays a big role here: The specific section of I-490 I mentioned has six interchanges in a span of just over three miles. kphoger's comment about 12:30 AM aside, during normal daytime hours it would be highly unlikely for any car to be able to use the right lane throughout without moving back and forth constantly - and there are no particular merges that I'd classify as very busy except perhaps the on-ramp from NY 590 South, and that has an extra lane for a while.
Your comments, and the phrase "vast stretches" in particular, sounds like you're talking about the QEW between Hamilton and Niagara, where exits are spread out and you can set the cruise and use the right lane uninterrupted for
at least 3-4 miles. As great as that sounds, and as much as I'd love that to be the case everywhere, there are plenty of decent-size metro areas, including Rochester, where it just isn't.
Quote from: webny99 on May 06, 2021, 07:34:02 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 06, 2021, 07:02:40 PM
I quite clearly stated "the occasional busy merge aside". I have never driven in any major city where every single on-ramp was a flood of cars onto the freeway, necessitating such common lane-changing on the part of outside-lane drivers that the right lane may as well end prior to the merge. On most freeways during regular hours, it should be easy enough to drive in the right lane and not have to deal with constant merging traffic, apart from some select on-ramps (mostly freeways).
The only place I've driven where it seems that most on-ramps are busy is Los Angeles, but they have ramp meters at most on-ramps like we do in Seattle, so it's not a constant battle like it would be without the meters.
Exit density plays a big role here: The specific section of I-490 I mentioned has six interchanges in a span of just over three miles. kphoger's comment about 12:30 AM aside, during normal daytime hours it would be highly unlikely for any car to be able to use the right lane throughout without moving back and forth constantly - and there are no particular merges that I'd classify as very busy except perhaps the on-ramp from NY 590 South, and that has an extra lane for a while.
Your comments, and the phrase "vast stretches" in particular, sounds like you're talking about the QEW between Hamilton and Niagara, where exits are spread out and you can set the cruise and use the right lane uninterrupted for at least 3-4 miles. As great as that sounds, and as much as I'd love that to be the case everywhere, there are plenty of decent-size metro areas, including Rochester, where it just isn't.
So you're telling me that in that six-lane stretch, there's virtually zero chance that you could remain in the right lane without having to change out of it at every single on-ramp to allow traffic to merge in? That's very hard to believe. Even if you have to change lanes once, hell even twice(!), that' still only a couple lane changes over the course of three miles. Three miles is not an insignificant distance, and to think someone would specifically choose to not drive in the right lane, perhaps at all, because they might have to change lanes a couple of times over a few miles, is mind-boggling laziness. Not to mention extremely rude to the drivers behind you, who now have been narrowed to a one passing lane during general free-flow hours (clearly we are not talking about stop-and-go traffic).
When I say "vast stretches", I was referring to the cumulative mileage of outside lanes where merging traffic was more than manageable enough to remain in said lane with only occasional lane changing or perhaps braking to permit a safe merge. You do not need QEW-levels of exit spacing to justify the use of the outside lane.
The odd road signs thread spawns a discussion about speed enforcement, so I split it off to its own thread. Then the new thread starts talking about lane discipline. Welcome to the life of an AARoads admin. :-D
damn goats again
You know how in Germany they have the autobahns, and the reason why they work is the extremely good lane discipline?
The attitudes and excuses displayed here of why people refuse to drive the right lane is exactly why we don't have them in the US.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 06, 2021, 01:29:41 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on May 06, 2021, 01:23:49 PM
I have a friend who works in corrections. He told me different agencies set different standards, so the county sheriff might give 8 over but state patrol might only give 5 over in that same area.
Usually I've found state troopers to be more relaxed as opposed to local police who may be looking to make revenue.
Granted, the city police department here in Chesapeake have jurisdiction over the two underposted 55 mph freeways that pass through, and enforcement is non existent. Seeing police traveling 15-20 mph over is normal, if they're on the highway at all. I've only ever seen them once or twice actually posted up in my hundreds of times driving here, and people passed at 10-15 over without care.
An article came out when they opened the new, wide open US-17 relocation in the southern rural part of the city, they enforced it decently, but didn't even begin stops until over 70 mph in a posted 55 mph, and usually gave warnings. The highway easily invites high speeds like that, so it's reasonable. Should be 65 mph, but that's another story.
Now, city police is more frequently seen on local streets and roadways, where enforcement is more appropriate than on the underposted highway. But if they ever truly wanted money, it's an easy source.
Depends on the state. In NJ, nearly all money received from tickets go to the state, regardless of which department the officer works for.
Also, no matter who gives the traffic ticket, if there's a court case as a result of the ticket, it is heard in the municipality where the offense took place. In many cases, the municipality may not even have an exit or access to the highway, yet the court hearing will be held there as it's wothin thr boundaries where the offender was caught.
And because of this, if you see a local cop running radar on a highway in NJ, they usually give the standard leeway a state trooper would give, which as best as I can tell is often 15 mph in a 65 zone; 20 mph in a 55 zone.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 06, 2021, 09:51:53 PM
You know how in Germany they have the autobahns, and the reason why they work is the extremely good lane discipline?
The attitudes and excuses displayed here of why people refuse to drive the right lane is exactly why we don't have them in the US.
My state, Washington, is actually pretty good about enforcing lane etiquette. We have signs posted on all suburban and rural freeways indicating, 'keep right to pass', and we even get radio ads about it occasionally. The state patrol supposedly cracks down on left-lane hogs. I-90 east of Issaquah (20 miles out of downtown Seattle) turns into a wide rural 3-lane each direction autobahn. I've seen cops occasionally, but most people go 80-90 MPH and stick to the right, especially for grades in that section.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on May 06, 2021, 10:24:14 PM
My state, Washington, is actually pretty good about enforcing lane etiquette. We have signs posted on all suburban and rural freeways indicating, 'keep right to pass', and we even get radio ads about it occasionally. The state patrol supposedly cracks down on left-lane hogs. I-90 east of Issaquah (20 miles out of downtown Seattle) turns into a wide rural 3-lane each direction autobahn. I've seen cops occasionally, but most people go 80-90 MPH and stick to the right, especially for grades in that section.
Did you mean "Keep right
except to pass"?
Quote from: Big John on May 06, 2021, 10:38:26 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on May 06, 2021, 10:24:14 PM
My state, Washington, is actually pretty good about enforcing lane etiquette. We have signs posted on all suburban and rural freeways indicating, 'keep right to pass', and we even get radio ads about it occasionally. The state patrol supposedly cracks down on left-lane hogs. I-90 east of Issaquah (20 miles out of downtown Seattle) turns into a wide rural 3-lane each direction autobahn. I've seen cops occasionally, but most people go 80-90 MPH and stick to the right, especially for grades in that section.
Did you mean "Keep right except to pass"?
If you're in Virginia, then no, keep right to pass, keep left to cruise, according to most drivers.
Quote from: KEK Inc. on May 06, 2021, 10:24:14 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 06, 2021, 09:51:53 PM
You know how in Germany they have the autobahns, and the reason why they work is the extremely good lane discipline?
The attitudes and excuses displayed here of why people refuse to drive the right lane is exactly why we don't have them in the US.
My state, Washington, is actually pretty good about enforcing lane etiquette. We have signs posted on all suburban and rural freeways indicating, 'keep right to pass', and we even get radio ads about it occasionally. The state patrol supposedly cracks down on left-lane hogs. I-90 east of Issaquah (20 miles out of downtown Seattle) turns into a wide rural 3-lane each direction autobahn. I've seen cops occasionally, but most people go 80-90 MPH and stick to the right, especially for grades in that section.
I watched someone get pulled over recently, presumably for hogging the left lane. The driver was in the left lane, trooper pulled up being the car. Even with no one else nearby, (I was quite a distance behind this), the car remained in the left lane for 2-3 miles before the trooper turned on his lights. The car then pulled over pretty quickly. :)
Quote from: jakeroot on May 06, 2021, 08:20:00 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 06, 2021, 07:34:02 PM
Exit density plays a big role here: The specific section of I-490 I mentioned has six interchanges in a span of just over three miles. kphoger's comment about 12:30 AM aside, during normal daytime hours it would be highly unlikely for any car to be able to use the right lane throughout without moving back and forth constantly - and there are no particular merges that I'd classify as very busy except perhaps the on-ramp from NY 590 South, and that has an extra lane for a while.
Your comments, and the phrase "vast stretches" in particular, sounds like you're talking about the QEW between Hamilton and Niagara, where exits are spread out and you can set the cruise and use the right lane uninterrupted for at least 3-4 miles. As great as that sounds, and as much as I'd love that to be the case everywhere, there are plenty of decent-size metro areas, including Rochester, where it just isn't.
So you're telling me that in that six-lane stretch, there's virtually zero chance that you could remain in the right lane without having to change out of it at every single on-ramp to allow traffic to merge in? That's very hard to believe. Even if you have to change lanes once, hell even twice(!), that' still only a couple lane changes over the course of three miles. Three miles is not an insignificant distance ...
No, of course there's not zero chance. I said it's highly unlikely, but of course it could - and no doubt
does - happen, especially among slower traffic. This is one of the most "urban" freeways in the area, both in terms of character and traffic volumes, so these are all busy interchanges. It would be very rare during normal daytime hours (say 8AM to 8PM) not to encounter at least
some traffic at all of the entrances.
Looking at Exits 16-20 in particular, they're
close enough (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1415474,-77.5921979,3a,37.5y,75.43h,79.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1su-LNZ86glWAdAdKs9vmwWA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) that they've got auxiliary lanes between them (with the exception of eastbound between 19 and 20). There's enough traffic switching lanes that the right through lane and auxiliary lane often function independently of the left two lanes and more like a C/D road - so make of that what you will.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 06, 2021, 08:20:00 PM
... to think someone would specifically choose to not drive in the right lane, perhaps at all, because they might have to change lanes a couple of times over a few miles, is mind-boggling laziness. Not to mention extremely rude to the drivers behind you, who now have been narrowed to a one passing lane during general free-flow hours (clearly we are not talking about stop-and-go traffic).
That's not my position at all. Everyone knows I'm one of the biggest advocates of KRETP out there. I just think it's important to distinguish between urban and rural freeways in this regard, and to keep an open mind when trying to apply KRETP to urban and otherwise exit-dense freeways. This is one of the inherent challenges that comes with building interstates in urban areas - many people have a mindset and approach to freeway driving (fast-left/slow-right) that can be very difficult to reconcile with the Autobahn approach (pass-left/drive-right).
Quote from: jakeroot on May 06, 2021, 08:20:00 PM
When I say "vast stretches", I was referring to the cumulative mileage of outside lanes where merging traffic was more than manageable enough to remain in said lane with only occasional lane changing or perhaps braking to permit a safe merge. You do not need QEW-levels of exit spacing to justify the use of the outside lane.
Of course not, but I think that significantly understates the effect of high exit density and inconsistent lane configurations common in urban and suburban areas - my original comment that there are no 6-lane freeways longer than 7 miles in the Rochester area being a case-in-point here.
The thing is, you shouldn't need to move out of the right lane if you know how to correctly adjust your speed and and make way for merging traffic. Moving over is mostly for convenience, for both you and the merging driver. It's not imperative that at every on-ramp you will move out of the right lane, especially if you are exiting soon or staying out of the way of faster traffic in the middle and left lane. It's more of a choice. The right lane is a still a travel lane, after all.
I usually find myself in the middle or left lanes of highways in general, but I do try to move over to the right when I'm not passing, and when I do use the left lanes, I try to adjust my speed to the prevailing speed of that lane, regardless of the speed limit. So on urban 55 mph highways, usually 65-75 mph, 80-85 mph on rural highways. The last thing I want to do is deliberately impede traffic.
Quote from: Big John on May 06, 2021, 10:38:26 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on May 06, 2021, 10:24:14 PM
My state, Washington, is actually pretty good about enforcing lane etiquette. We have signs posted on all suburban and rural freeways indicating, 'keep right to pass', and we even get radio ads about it occasionally. The state patrol supposedly cracks down on left-lane hogs. I-90 east of Issaquah (20 miles out of downtown Seattle) turns into a wide rural 3-lane each direction autobahn. I've seen cops occasionally, but most people go 80-90 MPH and stick to the right, especially for grades in that section.
Did you mean "Keep right except to pass"?
Yes.
QuoteThe thing is, you shouldn't need to move out of the right lane if you know how to correctly adjust your speed and and make way for merging traffic.
But it shouldn't be all on the right lane drivers' plate. In fact, given that they're already there, I don't think that should be even primarily their responsibility. Merging traffic needs to merge, yes, but not obstruct.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 07, 2021, 10:28:07 AM
The thing is, you shouldn't need to move out of the right lane if you know how to correctly adjust your speed and and make way for merging traffic. Moving over is mostly for convenience, for both you and the merging driver. It's not imperative that at every on-ramp you will move out of the right lane, especially if you are exiting soon or staying out of the way of faster traffic in the middle and left lane. It's more of a choice. The right lane is a still a travel lane, after all.
Or you could change your name to Crash_It and find fault with the entering driver no matter what he does...
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2021, 08:36:37 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 07, 2021, 10:28:07 AM
The thing is, you shouldn't need to move out of the right lane if you know how to correctly adjust your speed and and make way for merging traffic. Moving over is mostly for convenience, for both you and the merging driver. It's not imperative that at every on-ramp you will move out of the right lane, especially if you are exiting soon or staying out of the way of faster traffic in the middle and left lane. It's more of a choice. The right lane is a still a travel lane, after all.
Or you could change your name to Crash_It and find fault with the entering driver no matter what he does...
He seems like the type of person who would also be entering one day, get cut off by someone on the mainline refusing to move over, then upload a video complaining about it.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 09, 2021, 08:40:05 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2021, 08:36:37 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 07, 2021, 10:28:07 AM
The thing is, you shouldn't need to move out of the right lane if you know how to correctly adjust your speed and and make way for merging traffic. Moving over is mostly for convenience, for both you and the merging driver. It's not imperative that at every on-ramp you will move out of the right lane, especially if you are exiting soon or staying out of the way of faster traffic in the middle and left lane. It's more of a choice. The right lane is a still a travel lane, after all.
Or you could change your name to Crash_It and find fault with the entering driver no matter what he does...
He seems like the type of person who would also be entering one day, get cut off by someone on the mainline refusing to move over, then upload a video complaining about it.
Also seems like the type to not let others get off the elevator before getting on.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 09, 2021, 10:54:28 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 09, 2021, 08:40:05 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2021, 08:36:37 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 07, 2021, 10:28:07 AM
The thing is, you shouldn't need to move out of the right lane if you know how to correctly adjust your speed and and make way for merging traffic. Moving over is mostly for convenience, for both you and the merging driver. It's not imperative that at every on-ramp you will move out of the right lane, especially if you are exiting soon or staying out of the way of faster traffic in the middle and left lane. It's more of a choice. The right lane is a still a travel lane, after all.
Or you could change your name to Crash_It and find fault with the entering driver no matter what he does...
He seems like the type of person who would also be entering one day, get cut off by someone on the mainline refusing to move over, then upload a video complaining about it.
Also seems like the type to not let others get off the elevator before getting on.
^ This
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 09, 2021, 10:54:28 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 09, 2021, 08:40:05 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2021, 08:36:37 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 07, 2021, 10:28:07 AM
The thing is, you shouldn't need to move out of the right lane if you know how to correctly adjust your speed and and make way for merging traffic. Moving over is mostly for convenience, for both you and the merging driver. It's not imperative that at every on-ramp you will move out of the right lane, especially if you are exiting soon or staying out of the way of faster traffic in the middle and left lane. It's more of a choice. The right lane is a still a travel lane, after all.
Or you could change your name to Crash_It and find fault with the entering driver no matter what he does...
He seems like the type of person who would also be entering one day, get cut off by someone on the mainline refusing to move over, then upload a video complaining about it.
Also seems like the type to not let others get off the elevator before getting on.
The term for that regionally is FIB.
Much of the above discussion regarding ticketing deals with enforcement and tolerances for cops pulling you over.
A parallel discussion can be had with regards to automatic/camera enforcement - although not much discussion exists because the issues are more finite.
I am not aware of any camera that doesn't give a driver at least a 5 MPH tolerance. Of course, many jurisdictions will purposefully lower their speed limits by 5 MPH so that the camera will essentially be strict enforcement at the old limits.
The state of MD allows for speed cameras with a tolearnce of 11 MPH. Go 12 over, and you get a ticket. The cameras exist at school zones and on freeways where there is a work zone. (For whatever reason, Montgomery County (where I live) allows cameras even in non-school zones. gggrh.)
Based on my own observations locally, given that the cameras allow for a tolerance of about 11 MPH, the cops do as well - but there are exceptions, so if you speed, you do so at your own risk.
I've gotten three slaps on the wrist from county cops on county roads in Harford County, Maryland.
I've never been pulled over for anything less than 11 mph over the speed limit in Indiana.
Quote from: webny99 on May 06, 2021, 11:23:36 PM
[stuff about keeping right on a busy six-lane highway]
Here's how I look at it:
1. If you're never in the right lane because traffic is
actually merging/diverging in the right lane, such that it's always full of slower traffic, then that's great.
2. If you're never in the right lane because there's a
possibility that might
might need merge/diverge, then you're just being lazy–tightly spaced exits or not.
During my regular commute on a six-lane highway, (that includes a 3-mile stretch with 4 off-ramps and 5 on-ramps), some days I'm never in the right lane, because I'm
actually passing other drivers or letting them in. However, occasionally, I can do the whole commute without
leaving the right lane; sometimes, that's because traffic is really light right then, but other times it's because there are a dozen drivers who are in the middle lane for no reason. Lazy bums.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 05, 2021, 01:01:43 AM
Going exactly the limit also robs the officer of a potential pretext for a speculative stop, though. An officer could theoretically stop you for a stated reason of 1 mph over if they wanted to stick their head in the window and look for something to nail you on. If you're going exactly the limit and there's nothing else wrong with your car that could be a pretext for a stop, they can think it's suspicious all they want but all they can do about it is run your plate.
And apparently, you have to do the EXACT speed limit in Sampson County, NC. Ya know, because driving 5mph under the speed limit is suspicious...
https://www.wral.com/run-in-with-sampson-deputy-leaves-driver-feeling-unsafe/18953226/ (https://www.wral.com/run-in-with-sampson-deputy-leaves-driver-feeling-unsafe/18953226/)
Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2021, 02:48:46 PM
Quote from: webny99 on May 06, 2021, 11:23:36 PM
[stuff about keeping right on a busy six-lane highway]
Here's how I look at it:
1. If you're never in the right lane because traffic is actually merging/diverging in the right lane, such that it's always full of slower traffic, then that's great.
2. If you're never in the right lane because there's a possibility that might might need merge/diverge, then you're just being lazy–tightly spaced exits or not.
It should come as no surprise that I don't disagree with any of that.
However, especially at busy times of day, it would be
forgiveable for someone not to move left and right for every exit. There is such thing as taking KRETP too far. I should know: I start to relax my insistence on KRETP just a tad after a few people commented on it with the framing that I "change lanes all the time".
What's wrong with changing lanes all the time?
Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2021, 04:23:30 PM
What's wrong with changing lanes all the time?
Nothing, so long as you're not cutting people off. But many people see it as erratic, aggressive behavior.
Some of my family has concluded that I do it on road trips to keep myself awake. It's easy enough just to let them think that.
Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2021, 04:23:30 PM
What's wrong with changing lanes all the time?
I don't see anything wrong with it. I change lanes a lot. I stay in the lane that has the furthest distance to the car in front of me so I'm changing lanes a lot.
Quote from: mrsman on May 11, 2021, 07:55:43 AM
I am not aware of any camera that doesn't give a driver at least a 5 MPH tolerance.
I am. The speed cameras in I-380 in Cedar Rapids IA give a $25 ticket for 1 to 5 miles over the limit:
(https://i.imgur.com/4XHHzxu.png)
Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2021, 04:23:30 PM
What's wrong with changing lanes all the time?
It's simple math. More lane changes = higher chance of cutting someone off or a collision.
Quote from: mrsman on May 11, 2021, 07:55:43 AM
I am not aware of any camera that doesn't give a driver at least a 5 MPH tolerance. Of course, many jurisdictions will purposefully lower their speed limits by 5 MPH so that the camera will essentially be strict enforcement at the old limits.
Isn't DC famous for being blanketed with speed cameras that have no tolerance?
Quote from: vdeane on May 11, 2021, 09:05:28 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 11, 2021, 07:55:43 AM
I am not aware of any camera that doesn't give a driver at least a 5 MPH tolerance. Of course, many jurisdictions will purposefully lower their speed limits by 5 MPH so that the camera will essentially be strict enforcement at the old limits.
Isn't DC famous for being blanketed with speed cameras that have no tolerance?
I have driven around DC extensively and cannot recall any speed cameras. If there are any, they're very selectively placed.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 11, 2021, 08:30:16 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2021, 04:23:30 PM
What's wrong with changing lanes all the time?
It's simple math. More lane changes = higher chance of cutting someone off or a collision.
Ostensibly, yes. But intentionally changing lanes either rarely, or never, will likely increase the need for those around you to change lanes in response to your desire to
not change lanes.
Yeah, encouraging faster traffic to jump into the right lane is, in my opinion, more dangerous than just moving over yourself.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 12, 2021, 12:26:27 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 11, 2021, 09:05:28 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 11, 2021, 07:55:43 AM
I am not aware of any camera that doesn't give a driver at least a 5 MPH tolerance. Of course, many jurisdictions will purposefully lower their speed limits by 5 MPH so that the camera will essentially be strict enforcement at the old limits.
Isn't DC famous for being blanketed with speed cameras that have no tolerance?
I have driven around DC extensively and cannot recall any speed cameras. If there are any, they're very selectively placed.
https://opendata.dc.gov/datasets/camera-enforcement-locations?geometry=-77.451%2C38.804%2C-76.580%2C38.991
(I think that map also includes red light cameras, but....still. The ones I'm most aware of are on DC 295, this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8727906,-76.9804508,3a,21.5y,265.01h,86.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7AsfsvhH12Sc4-qGTOfUPQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) in particular has quite the reputation (https://www.npr.org/local/305/2020/03/11/814441302/two-drivers-are-suing-d-c-over-a-single-speed-camera-they-call-unconstitutional).)
Quote from: jmacswimmer on May 12, 2021, 12:35:49 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 12, 2021, 12:26:27 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 11, 2021, 09:05:28 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 11, 2021, 07:55:43 AM
I am not aware of any camera that doesn't give a driver at least a 5 MPH tolerance. Of course, many jurisdictions will purposefully lower their speed limits by 5 MPH so that the camera will essentially be strict enforcement at the old limits.
Isn't DC famous for being blanketed with speed cameras that have no tolerance?
I have driven around DC extensively and cannot recall any speed cameras. If there are any, they're very selectively placed.
https://opendata.dc.gov/datasets/camera-enforcement-locations?geometry=-77.451%2C38.804%2C-76.580%2C38.991
(I think that map also includes red light cameras, but....still. The ones I'm most aware of are on DC 295, this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8727906,-76.9804508,3a,21.5y,265.01h,86.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7AsfsvhH12Sc4-qGTOfUPQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) in particular has quite the reputation (https://www.npr.org/local/305/2020/03/11/814441302/two-drivers-are-suing-d-c-over-a-single-speed-camera-they-call-unconstitutional).)
The one on 295 is the only one I could think of.
My experience is mostly right in the middle of the District. And that map confirms that Washington Circle has the only speed camera right in the "heart" of the district. Most are red light cameras. But there are definitely speed cameras in the fringes of the District, many of which I was not aware of. So thank you for that map.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 12, 2021, 12:31:28 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 11, 2021, 08:30:16 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2021, 04:23:30 PM
What's wrong with changing lanes all the time?
It's simple math. More lane changes = higher chance of cutting someone off or a collision.
But intentionally changing lanes either rarely, or never, will likely increase the need for those around you to change lanes in response to your desire to not change lanes.
Not if everyone just uses the correct lane for their speed and adjusts their positioning on the road correctly. As long as slower drivers stay right and merging vehicles properly adjust to traffic, there should only be an occasional need for a lane change.
So what happens when a 25 mph loop comes onto the mainline with a short acceleration lane? You have to have a lot of power to go from 25-30 to 60+ in under 1,000 feet.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 12, 2021, 03:28:15 PM
Not if everyone just uses the correct lane for their speed ...
What does this even mean? What lane is "the correct lane" for driving 63 mph on a 60 mph highway? Well, obviously, that depends on the speed of all the other vehicles around you. One minute, you might be "slower traffic", and three minutes later you might be "faster traffic".
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 11, 2021, 07:05:01 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 11, 2021, 07:55:43 AM
I am not aware of any camera that doesn't give a driver at least a 5 MPH tolerance.
I am. The speed cameras in I-380 in Cedar Rapids IA give a $25 ticket for 1 to 5 miles over the limit:
(https://i.imgur.com/4XHHzxu.png)
I'm not a local so someone more familiar may chime in here, but I'm not convinced that's accurate. Here's a recent article that seems to indicate a 12 MPH tolerance. https://www.thegazette.com/government-politics/cedar-rapids-traffic-camera-tickets-declining-but-on-pace-to-double-revenue-projection/
The solution is to go between 5 and 6 mph over, or between 10 and 11, or between 20 and 21. Notice that you do not have this leeway between 25 and 26.
Quote from: doorknob60 on May 12, 2021, 05:03:19 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on May 11, 2021, 07:05:01 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 11, 2021, 07:55:43 AM
I am not aware of any camera that doesn't give a driver at least a 5 MPH tolerance.
I am. The speed cameras in I-380 in Cedar Rapids IA give a $25 ticket for 1 to 5 miles over the limit:
(https://i.imgur.com/4XHHzxu.png)
I'm not a local so someone more familiar may chime in here, but I'm not convinced that's accurate. Here's a recent article that seems to indicate a 12 MPH tolerance. https://www.thegazette.com/government-politics/cedar-rapids-traffic-camera-tickets-declining-but-on-pace-to-double-revenue-projection/
It seems that that 12 mph leeway is how it works in practice. For what it's worth, though, my information came direct from the city's municipal code (https://library.municode.com/ia/cedar_rapids/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=CH61TRRE_61.138AUTREN), which offers no tolerance, as far as I can tell.
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2021, 03:37:52 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 12, 2021, 03:28:15 PM
Not if everyone just uses the correct lane for their speed ...
What does this even mean? What lane is "the correct lane" for driving 63 mph on a 60 mph highway? Well, obviously, that depends on the speed of all the other vehicles around you. One minute, you might be "slower traffic", and three minutes later you might be "faster traffic".
You just answered your own question. If traffic is moving faster and you're going slower, you keep right, and vice versa with keeping left. Sometimes the "correct" lane for your speed changes, especially at the beginnings and ends of speed zones.
Quote from: vdeane on May 11, 2021, 09:05:28 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 11, 2021, 07:55:43 AM
I am not aware of any camera that doesn't give a driver at least a 5 MPH tolerance. Of course, many jurisdictions will purposefully lower their speed limits by 5 MPH so that the camera will essentially be strict enforcement at the old limits.
Isn't DC famous for being blanketed with speed cameras that have no tolerance?
Couldn't find anything official, a lot of broken links on DDOT's site. But here is an artice from 2012:
https://dcist.com/story/12/08/29/even-dcs-traffic-cameras-tolerate-a/
Quote
You know that old claim that a police officer will let you slide if you’re only speeding less than 10 miles over the speed limit? Well, MPD’s got a little secret—the same tolerance applies to tickets given out by many of the city’s speeding cameras.
At yesterday’s task force meeting on traffic cameras and fines, Lisa Sutter, MPD’s Program Manager for the Photo Enforcement Program, said that between 75 and 80 percent of all tickets given out by the cameras are for speeding between 11-15 miles an hour over the posted speed limit ($125 fine), and 17 to 20 percent are for those driving between 16 and 20 miles an hour over the limit ($150 fine). But for those caught driving between 1 and 10 miles an hour above the limit ($75 fine), she said during the meeting, tickets are rarely sent out to the offender.
The insidious aspect of DC's cameras isn't the tolerance, it's the placement. There are speed cameras on expressways. I-395 through Downtown has a speed limit of 40, with camera enforcement.
Here's a pic of that sign.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8824535,-77.0165684,3a,75y,261.34h,78.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sROLo1fWGfD_91fjSIFViQw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Southern part of I-295, a relatively empty freeway, has cameras with a speed limit of 50.
As is common in other areas, there are also surface streets with artificially lower speed limits, but the freeways are the most egregious.
I am not alone that this is a money grab by DDOT, especially against MD and VA commuters as a good number of the cameras tend to be close to the district line and are along major commuter corridors. Congress prohibited DC from collecting a commuter tax, so they are using the speed cameras to collect such tax indirectly.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 12, 2021, 12:31:28 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 11, 2021, 08:30:16 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2021, 04:23:30 PM
What's wrong with changing lanes all the time?
It's simple math. More lane changes = higher chance of cutting someone off or a collision.
Ostensibly, yes. But intentionally changing lanes either rarely, or never, will likely increase the need for those around you to change lanes in response to your desire to not change lanes.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 12, 2021, 10:09:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2021, 03:37:52 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 12, 2021, 03:28:15 PM
Not if everyone just uses the correct lane for their speed ...
What does this even mean? What lane is "the correct lane" for driving 63 mph on a 60 mph highway? Well, obviously, that depends on the speed of all the other vehicles around you. One minute, you might be "slower traffic", and three minutes later you might be "faster traffic".
You just answered your own question. If traffic is moving faster and you're going slower, you keep right, and vice versa with keeping left. Sometimes the "correct" lane for your speed changes, especially at the beginnings and ends of speed zones.
Then how does that contradict what |jakeroot| said? If (a) you're using the correct lane for your speed and (b) the correct lane for your speed changes, then (c) you
aren't "intentionally changing lane either rarely, or never".
Quote from: mrsman on May 13, 2021, 08:22:29 AM
The insidious aspect of DC's cameras isn't the tolerance, it's the placement. There are speed cameras on expressways. I-395 through Downtown has a speed limit of 40, with camera enforcement.
Here's a pic of that sign.
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8824535,-77.0165684,3a,75y,261.34h,78.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sROLo1fWGfD_91fjSIFViQw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
The curious thing is that that specific stretch of I-395 (west of I-695) doesn't currently have a speed camera (and the prevailing speed of traffic when I've driven thru there suggests that everyone knows this). There are, however, speed cameras north of I-695 somewhere in the 3rd Street Tunnel.
(And notice how the "photo enforced" signs are rather small and somewhat easy to miss - compare to the massive signs (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3045865,-76.7439002,3a,43.1y,194.66h,88.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr0s4P42en3ISDxXxo2XdFQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) MDOT SHA uses entering work zones.)
Also, I completely agree with your sentiment on the real motivation behind those cameras - from the "Interstates without a welcome sign after crossing a state line" thread:
Quote from: jmacswimmer on March 18, 2021, 01:36:31 PM
Quote from: vdeane on March 18, 2021, 12:54:21 PM
They actually do have one (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.910299,-76.9359704,3a,15.9y,227.91h,84.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUd-HAYtRYssXmGmvoKQq7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), but unfortunately don't use it on the interstates.
Wow - in all the times I've driven thru there on DC 295, I've never once noticed that sign :pan: (maybe because I'm closely watching my speedometer due to DC's revenue generators speed cameras...)
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2021, 10:15:20 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 12, 2021, 12:31:28 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 11, 2021, 08:30:16 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 11, 2021, 04:23:30 PM
What's wrong with changing lanes all the time?
It's simple math. More lane changes = higher chance of cutting someone off or a collision.
Ostensibly, yes. But intentionally changing lanes either rarely, or never, will likely increase the need for those around you to change lanes in response to your desire to not change lanes.
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 12, 2021, 10:09:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 12, 2021, 03:37:52 PM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 12, 2021, 03:28:15 PM
Not if everyone just uses the correct lane for their speed ...
What does this even mean? What lane is "the correct lane" for driving 63 mph on a 60 mph highway? Well, obviously, that depends on the speed of all the other vehicles around you. One minute, you might be "slower traffic", and three minutes later you might be "faster traffic".
You just answered your own question. If traffic is moving faster and you're going slower, you keep right, and vice versa with keeping left. Sometimes the "correct" lane for your speed changes, especially at the beginnings and ends of speed zones.
Then how does that contradict what |jakeroot| said? If (a) you're using the correct lane for your speed and (b) the correct lane for your speed changes, then (c) you aren't "intentionally changing lane either rarely, or never".
Uhh...
Quote from: interstatefan990 on May 12, 2021, 03:28:15 PM
there should only be an occasional need for a lane change
Never said never.
I guess it's the hair-splitting between "occasionally" and "rarely", then. Eh, OK. Maybe our language just has too many synonyms with slightly different connotations. :D
Quote from: kphoger on May 13, 2021, 02:45:50 PM
Maybe Our language just has too many synonyms with slightly different connotations.
FTFY... :D
On Sunday evening at around 9:30 PM, I drove this ten-mile stretch of uninterrupted six-lane freeway (https://goo.gl/maps/Gfz1mgMZfLyWXsWi7). Traffic was so light that, even though I was driving approximately 8 mph over the speed limit the whole time, I only passed five vehicles. And do you know what? I never once moved out of the right lane, the entire time. All five of those vehicles were in the middle lane for no good reason.
(One driver even moved into the center lane while I was still a ways behind them, then moved back into the right lane a couple of miles later to exit. But they were from out of state, so they might have thought this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/GXJL5RkaiLRKhQtV6) meant "exit only". :confused:)
Quote from: kphoger on May 20, 2021, 03:29:26 PM
On Sunday evening at around 9:30 PM, I drove this ten-mile stretch of uninterrupted six-lane freeway (https://goo.gl/maps/Gfz1mgMZfLyWXsWi7). Traffic was so light that, even though I was driving approximately 8 mph over the speed limit the whole time, I only passed five vehicles. And do you know what? I never once moved out of the right lane, the entire time. All five of those vehicles were in the middle lane for no good reason.
(One driver even moved into the center lane while I was still a ways behind them, then moved back into the right lane a couple of miles later to exit. But they were from out of state, so they might have thought this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/GXJL5RkaiLRKhQtV6) meant "exit only". :confused:)
What sort of headlights does your car have, or are you driving a vehicle that is higher off the ground? I ask because I've seen people change lanes inexplicably ahead of me and I've wondered whether they didn't like my headlights, although that has become far less frequent as HIDs and LED headlights have become more common. Back in 2004 when I first got my current primary car, oncoming people would high-beam me at night periodically, which led to a Crocodile Dundee response from me–"Those aren't high-beams. [pull stalk] THOSE are high-beams." Based on that, I've wondered if a person who changes lanes from in front of me for no apparent reason maybe dislikes my headlights. I've sometimes changed lanes when an SUV or jacked-up pickup's headlights are annoying me in the rearview mirror.
Sometimes at night I'll drive unusually slow/change lanes/etc. if the car behind me has headlights that resemble that of a cop car, or I catch a glimpse in the mirror of what could be a light bar (but usually turns out to be a luggage rack). I wish that cop cars were mandated to identify themselves at night somehow so I wouldn't have to be so paranoid about it, like maybe always having one of the blue lights on the bar on steady or something like that.
No, I drive a 2006 Pathfinder with normal headlights. The timing and suddenness of the lane changes really made me think they were just confused out-of-towners. I was probably a tenth of a mile behind them when they shifted left.
Anyway, that only eliminates one.
Then there is more obnoxious speed enforcement programs such as aerial enforcement: https://www.wearegreenbay.com/news/local-news/state-patrol-plans-aerial-speed-enforcement-for-brown-county/
Michigan State Police had multiple speed traps in the 75 mph zone on I-75 yesterday. I was doing 85 and they didn't mess with me.
Quote from: Big John on May 20, 2021, 05:01:58 PM
Then there is more obnoxious speed enforcement programs such as aerial enforcement: https://www.wearegreenbay.com/news/local-news/state-patrol-plans-aerial-speed-enforcement-for-brown-county/
Washington State Patrol was quite infamous for doing this in Marysville and Olympia for years, maybe even decades. But lately, they seem to use the strategy only infrequently at best. At least if Twitter references to it are any indication (I'm not out there spotting the planes or tracking them online).
What a waste of tax money. How much fuel is used flying those planes?
Quote from: kphoger on May 21, 2021, 02:24:08 PM
What a waste of tax money. How much fuel is used flying those planes?
I think the planes use about 12-15 gallons/hour of...whatever fuel small planes use.
I don't think it's a giant waste. Washington State Patrol uses the planes for a ton of things, not necessarily unlike what other agencies might use helicopters for:
Quote from: wsp.wa.gov
Aerial services provide assistance to troopers, agency staff, and local jurisdictions by providing:
- Statewide day and night aerial traffic enforcement
- Traffic congestion management
- Identification of locations where serious injury or fatality collisions are likely to occur
- Vehicle pursuit management
- Tactical advantage to ground-based troopers providing additional safety
- Support for Emergency Preparedness/Homeland Security
- All-hazards emergency service air operations
- Other law enforcement missions including: Stolen vehicle recoveries, fraud tax and evasion, wildland fire management, natural disaster assistance, spill response, search and rescue, and much more
https://www.wsp.wa.gov/driver/enforcement/
The others might be semi-reasonable, but there's no need to do it for continuing typical speed enforcement.
Quote from: sprjus4 on May 21, 2021, 11:46:07 PM
The others might be semi-reasonable, but there's no need to do it for continuing typical speed enforcement.
I think it's too expensive for use in continual enforcement anyway. Aerial enforcement is performed on key days only, if I recall correctly.
Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2021, 11:44:18 PM
I think the planes use about 12-15 gallons/hour of...whatever fuel small planes use.
Aviation gas, aka avgas. It's a little hard to figure how it compares to auto gas, since airplanes have a mixture control that allows them to adjust the ratio of air and gas going into the engine in real time, but it looks like it's probably most comparable to 100 octane. Here (https://www.airnav.com/fuel/) is a site listing avgas prices at whatever airport you like. The airport my dad gets his from is currently at $3.75/gal; for comparison the lowest car gas price in Norman is $2.52/gal at Walmart.
I've never felt Minnesota has much tolerance. You might get 6-7 over and then they're pulling people.
I've noticed enforcement here tends to be all or nothing, though. You'll either drive across the state seeing maybe one trooper, or if you're unlucky every single trooper, deputy, and local cop is out running radar on a given day.
Quote from: Big John on May 04, 2021, 11:59:04 PM
Rosendale WI is a notorious speed trap. WisDOT now recommends taking I-41 to US 151 instead of WI 26 from Oshkosh to Waupun to bypass Rosendale.
The actual reason isn't to bypass Rosendale because of the "speed trap". It's because 151 to 41 is expressway, while 26 is a two lane country road without many opportunities to pass, making it a dangerous stretch of road when congested.
In my experience in WI (and I drive around the state a LOT!) the tolerance seems to be up to 9 over on the highways, and about 5 over in town. I typically set my cruise to 8 over on the freeways, and 5 over in town and have never gotten a ticket, even in high enforcement areas.
In fact, there was an article in the Milwaukee JS on the Rosendale speed trap and there weren't any tickets issued for 1-8MPH over in the time researched.
Michigan gives you about 6-7 over and then they come after ya. On freeways you can generally do about 10 over and be fine but anything more they'll come after ya. A Michigan State Trooper told me once that driving 80 mph in a 70 zone they aren't going to bother you but if you are doing 85 they'll nail ya. So my best advice is to keep it at 80.
I've passed an Ohio State Highway Patrol cruiser before at 80 mph in a 70 mph zone on I-75 and didn't get messed with.
Passed a cop on MD-100 at 75 mph in a 55 mph... didn't bat an eye. The flow was mostly going that speed.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 20, 2021, 01:15:01 PM
Michigan gives you about 6-7 over and then they come after ya. On freeways you can generally do about 10 over and be fine but anything more they'll come after ya. A Michigan State Trooper told me once that driving 80 mph in a 70 zone they aren't going to bother you but if you are doing 85 they'll nail ya. So my best advice is to keep it at 80.
I've passed an Ohio State Highway Patrol cruiser before at 80 mph in a 70 mph zone on I-75 and didn't get messed with.
Brandon once told us of a saying in Michigan regarding going over, "nine you're fine, ten you're mine".
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 20, 2021, 03:00:33 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 20, 2021, 01:15:01 PM
Michigan gives you about 6-7 over and then they come after ya. On freeways you can generally do about 10 over and be fine but anything more they'll come after ya. A Michigan State Trooper told me once that driving 80 mph in a 70 zone they aren't going to bother you but if you are doing 85 they'll nail ya. So my best advice is to keep it at 80.
I've passed an Ohio State Highway Patrol cruiser before at 80 mph in a 70 mph zone on I-75 and didn't get messed with.
Brandon once told us of a saying in Michigan regarding going over, "nine you're fine, ten you're mine".
Yeah it was 8 over your fine 10 over your mine. You can do 10 over and be okay though.
For state highways and really any 55 zone you can do up to 62 before they're going to mess with you. Even doing 65 is fine in some places.
By me we have M-58 which is a 5-mile state highway in Saginaw between I-675 and M-47. Saginaw city cops won't do anything to you for speeding unless you're going extremely fast and standing out. Saginaw Township cops however will nail you for doing any more than seven over. Saginaw County Sheriff's Department and Michigan State Police generally don't pull people over for speeding unless it's on the freeway or you're going extremely fast and standing out.