Must be a state or US highway.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4347004,-78.0653475,3a,18y,117.64h,90.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFd4SgIByzVu-49sd7I2yMg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8919716,-76.5313031,3a,15y,303.41h,91.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXCo3H4ae_jaryef1Ccp7og!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7659137,-77.9612187,3a,15.1y,335.59h,91.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCnlqMAXL9MC87D2zx6D8bA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1 - The other side as well has no control city.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.5202206,-77.5857264,3a,44.4y,20.93h,87.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNvZi8QPZQ0HRWkFwgNK9FA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
I-270 and OH 315 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1119792,-83.0413709,3a,49.4y,85.98h,98.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siPAHOcqDvic_xXM0V802GA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) for an example in Ohio.
Some states, like Minnesota, are full of examples of this. Specifically in the Twin Cities, where control cities aren't signed on a majority of the intracity freeways, which includes MN 36, 62, 77 and 100.
Egads. There must be hundreds of these.
I looked at the links in the OP and I don't see any overhead signs.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 18, 2021, 08:13:06 AM
I looked at the links in the OP and I don't see any overhead signs.
Makes more sense now.
You must be driving a go-kart off road along the interstate for these to count as overhead.
With that said, I agree with Rothman–there must be loads of those all over the place. In particular, BGSs in heavily-settled areas often have just a route number and road name with no control cities (or other sorts of destinations) listed. I can think of a sign six miles up the Beltway from my exit that simply has a secondary route 620 shield and says "Braddock Road" without telling you where it goes. That sort of thing is very common.
The sort of sign the OP posted does seem to be exceptionally common in North Carolina, however. Those sorts of signs are one example of why I find a sat-nav to be useful if I hit an unexpected traffic jam on the Interstate–when the sign doesn't say where the road goes, I can hit up the sat-nav for a spur-of-the-moment detour and I know it'll route me back to the Interstate within a reasonable distance. (That very thing happened to us in North Carolina a few weeks ago due to construction.)
Quite a few in Kansas:
US 69:
https://goo.gl/maps/HC3V3AH2HpfRRw1RA
https://goo.gl/maps/U5JMdWp6R6Wt47rE6
https://goo.gl/maps/rYHAHKN9dKm4rp4F9
https://goo.gl/maps/6MZgzueoYxLTtHGU7
US 75:
https://goo.gl/maps/apEmciwCcRHY4U727
https://goo.gl/maps/nVvL3e9R13Rwk7iu7
https://goo.gl/maps/gTstpvBtP4iSFg756
https://goo.gl/maps/WcKKhasDDVitvAXk6
K-96:
https://goo.gl/maps/MaXpud1SCKFPWzG3A
https://goo.gl/maps/QWotW79bJcoGWhDk6
And I assumed you weren't counting the ones that have road names.
duh. https://goo.gl/maps/HdCwQ7BhVEiUF8mTA
yawn. https://goo.gl/maps/7uavJUPqxBz6JApC7
blawp. https://goo.gl/maps/hQyQYUAS2a2CCbmMA
Quote from: Rothman on June 18, 2021, 06:59:37 AM
Egads. There must be hundreds of these.
Absolutely. Silly thread.
So (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6911939,-78.1328058,3a,75y,110.58h,86.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRDKdSJQ0yKvuYt-0ro-gyA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en) many (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.4179278,-77.4342619,3a,75y,207.17h,88.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3w-nfO3RXRCheESFCxVMUw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) examples (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3936849,-77.3261705,3a,75y,327.86h,85.92t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJGfCVMuCfygrKWd4jc-4Xw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en), so (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3976147,-76.6652027,3a,75y,45.4h,85.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sct_ZSMYROUKBd_MbVeMFfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) little (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1407903,-77.2123478,3a,75y,359.58h,86.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-dsf_9hKd6TpSHoAFmH_SQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en) time (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0738763,-76.9551646,3a,75y,40.55h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ssM7wVypt8D8zlvCrqRidyg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1?hl=en)
There are two of these for US 60 on I-64 in Kentucky -- one in Clark County between Winchester and Mt. Stelring, and one in Boyd County between Grayson and the West Virginia state line.
Used to say Richmond
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0383632,-77.7629452,3a,75y,20.28h,95.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0CWFI5rfwn_srLx7He95xw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en
Quote from: tolbs17 on June 18, 2021, 06:18:45 PM
Used to say Richmond
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0383632,-77.7629452,3a,75y,20.28h,95.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0CWFI5rfwn_srLx7He95xw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en
On both signs (https://goo.gl/maps/vbyd1amZFMmzvUvo9). Which isn't exactly best practice.
Quote from: Rothman on June 18, 2021, 06:59:37 AM
Egads. There must be hundreds of these.
Probably hundreds of them in Kansas alone. KDOT is pretty fastidious about its control-signing practices and, when it can't find one it likes, just doesn't post one.
Quote from: kphoger on June 18, 2021, 07:44:14 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on June 18, 2021, 06:18:45 PM
Used to say Richmond
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0383632,-77.7629452,3a,75y,20.28h,95.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0CWFI5rfwn_srLx7He95xw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en
On both signs (https://goo.gl/maps/vbyd1amZFMmzvUvo9). Which isn't exactly best practice.
Also the "Via Whitakers-Enfield-Halifax-Weldon" in fine print. Never heard of those places in either NC or VA.
Here's a Swedish sign with NO control city. (https://www.google.com/maps/@60.1304604,12.9955509,3a,44.4y,223.85h,85.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s564c7OREfjgtojet3PCdqw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) :sombrero:
Quote from: kphoger on June 18, 2021, 01:56:46 PM
duh.
yawn.
blawp.
Quote from: Rothman on June 18, 2021, 06:59:37 AM
Egads.
Absolutely
Roadgeeks need a comic book superhero, and I think it should be
The Green Arrow.
Ah!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/5521/31301641062_a6d2f88de8_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PG26mA)
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 18, 2021, 08:32:41 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 18, 2021, 07:44:14 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on June 18, 2021, 06:18:45 PM
Used to say Richmond
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0383632,-77.7629452,3a,75y,20.28h,95.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0CWFI5rfwn_srLx7He95xw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en
On both signs (https://goo.gl/maps/vbyd1amZFMmzvUvo9). Which isn't exactly best practice.
Also the "Via Whitakers-Enfield-Halifax-Weldon" in fine print. Never heard of those places in either NC or VA.
Never seen a sign that has so many control cities... Also, that sign was probably put there before 1979?
Quote from: tolbs17 on June 18, 2021, 08:52:52 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 18, 2021, 08:32:41 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 18, 2021, 07:44:14 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on June 18, 2021, 06:18:45 PM
Used to say Richmond
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0383632,-77.7629452,3a,75y,20.28h,95.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0CWFI5rfwn_srLx7He95xw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en
On both signs (https://goo.gl/maps/vbyd1amZFMmzvUvo9). Which isn't exactly best practice.
Also the "Via Whitakers-Enfield-Halifax-Weldon" in fine print. Never heard of those places in either NC or VA.
Never seen a sign that has so many control cities... Also, that sign was probably put there before 1979?
In some places, like China and Japan, it's common seeing 4 control cities on a BGS due to the nature of their language.
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 18, 2021, 08:55:39 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on June 18, 2021, 08:52:52 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 18, 2021, 08:32:41 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 18, 2021, 07:44:14 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on June 18, 2021, 06:18:45 PM
Used to say Richmond
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0383632,-77.7629452,3a,75y,20.28h,95.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0CWFI5rfwn_srLx7He95xw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en
On both signs (https://goo.gl/maps/vbyd1amZFMmzvUvo9). Which isn't exactly best practice.
Also the "Via Whitakers-Enfield-Halifax-Weldon" in fine print. Never heard of those places in either NC or VA.
Never seen a sign that has so many control cities... Also, that sign was probably put there before 1979?
In some places, like China and Japan, it's common seeing 4 control cities on a BGS due to the nature of their language.
Normally over here, there's usually no more than 2 (or 3 if they are all major cities).
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 18, 2021, 08:32:41 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 18, 2021, 07:44:14 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on June 18, 2021, 06:18:45 PM
Used to say Richmond
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0383632,-77.7629452,3a,75y,20.28h,95.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0CWFI5rfwn_srLx7He95xw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en
On both signs (https://goo.gl/maps/vbyd1amZFMmzvUvo9). Which isn't exactly best practice.
Also the "Via Whitakers-Enfield-Halifax-Weldon" in fine print. Never heard of those places in either NC or VA.
They're all in NC. Weldon is the only one of note, being right next to Roanoke Rapids and is where US 158 and 301 meet. The greened out part said Battleboro, which was annexed by Rocky Mount at some point.
Quote from: formulanone on June 18, 2021, 08:50:36 PM
Roadgeeks need a comic book superhero, and I think it should be The Green Arrow.
Aren't most of the arrows we take photos of white, though?
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 18, 2021, 09:12:04 PM
Quote from: formulanone on June 18, 2021, 08:50:36 PM
Roadgeeks need a comic book superhero, and I think it should be The Green Arrow.
Aren't most of the arrows we take photos of white, though?
Traffic lights are more dynamic.
ISTHA has several of these on one stretch I-90 alone. This isn't uncommon enough to warrant a thread.
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 18, 2021, 01:04:15 AM
I-270 and OH 315 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1119792,-83.0413709,3a,49.4y,85.98h,98.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siPAHOcqDvic_xXM0V802GA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) for an example in Ohio.
Some states, like Minnesota, are full of examples of this. Specifically in the Twin Cities, where control cities aren't signed on a majority of the intracity freeways, which includes MN 36, 62, 77 and 100.
36 is actually one of the few local freeways that does have control cities signed inside of 694.
Snelling Ave at 36 (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0077807,-93.1663204,3a,75y,0.84h,92.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slzJ60RJWAABYaShzv40OBA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
I-35E at 36 (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0074249,-93.089546,3a,75y,21.11h,89.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syXHcrfnuLqXlJKM3EaKZww!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on June 24, 2021, 03:03:38 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 18, 2021, 01:04:15 AM
I-270 and OH 315 (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1119792,-83.0413709,3a,49.4y,85.98h,98.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siPAHOcqDvic_xXM0V802GA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) for an example in Ohio.
Some states, like Minnesota, are full of examples of this. Specifically in the Twin Cities, where control cities aren't signed on a majority of the intracity freeways, which includes MN 36, 62, 77 and 100.
36 is actually one of the few local freeways that does have control cities signed inside of 694.
Snelling Ave at 36 (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0077807,-93.1663204,3a,75y,0.84h,92.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slzJ60RJWAABYaShzv40OBA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
I-35E at 36 (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.0074249,-93.089546,3a,75y,21.11h,89.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1syXHcrfnuLqXlJKM3EaKZww!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Guess I need to check more locations then. I saw a lack of a control city for 36 at its 35W interchange only, and assuming it doesn't have them anywhere else.
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.4360822,-77.8728151,3a,15y,357.28h,89.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skuvLfApDUhJq0jfnyQSdNA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Guess they don't like Rocky Point.
A Detroit-area oddity is that no signs for exits/ramps to the M-39 Southfield Freeway show any control cities; only the route number and freeway name.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 18, 2021, 11:29:42 PM
ISTHA has several of these on one stretch I-90 alone. This isn't uncommon enough to warrant a thread.
I'll just make a blanket statement here about Illinois's toll highways (maintained by ISTHA, as previously mentioned)-- any exit on an Illinois tollway that isn't to another expressway* will not have any control cities mentioned on the sign. The control cities will be mentioned on a single separate sign usually within 1/2 mile of the exit, with text on the bottom that says "NEXT RIGHT". Here's an example on I-355 northbound approaching the IL-64 exit:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49849869668_cae5274c30_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iX4Bvw)
cityGS (https://flic.kr/p/2iX4Bvw) by Paul Drives (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr
This is an especially long list of control cities; these signs max out at five list items. The other BGS assembly in the background is at the gore point for the exit.
These signs deviate from many other states' tradition of putting the exit number at the bottom of the list of control cities, because ISTHA hasn't used exit numbers until this past decade.
Here's an example of a sign on I-90. Look at the lonely little route markers. They need some friends. (Maybe the ugly Clearview numerals scared them away.)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4536/38859858511_9b6a6e3ec4_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/22cUW5x)
IL-I-90X056W (https://flic.kr/p/22cUW5x) by Paul Drives (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr
*In Illinois, "expressway" refers to the set of highways including freeways and tollways. Chicagoland is so evenly split between the two types of highways that we'll use this word as a blanket term to refer to any high-speed limited-access highway.
Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 15, 2021, 10:49:59 AM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 18, 2021, 11:29:42 PM
ISTHA has several of these on one stretch I-90 alone. This isn't uncommon enough to warrant a thread.
I'll just make a blanket statement here about Illinois's toll highways (maintained by ISTHA, as previously mentioned)-- any exit on an Illinois tollway that isn't to another expressway* will not have any control cities mentioned on the sign. The control cities will be mentioned on a single separate sign usually within 1/2 mile of the exit, with text on the bottom that says "NEXT RIGHT". Here's an example on I-355 northbound approaching the IL-64 exit:
images
This is an especially long list of control cities; these signs max out at five list items. The other BGS assembly in the background is at the gore point for the exit.
These signs deviate from many other states' tradition of putting the exit number at the bottom of the list of control cities, because ISTHA hasn't used exit numbers until this past decade.
I hadn't even considered interchanges that omit a control city in favor of a street name. If we're counting those, then just about every single interchange in a Utah urban area qualifies, and from my experience this is probably true of most large and medium sized cities in the US.
Reading the title made me think of this. (https://goo.gl/maps/4ZeqYa2t3qNupQwm8) I have always found this quite perplexing. An area that heavily uses control cities would omit the control cities on a mainline to mainline interstate intersection like this!
Quote from: Takumi on June 18, 2021, 09:10:07 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 18, 2021, 08:32:41 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 18, 2021, 07:44:14 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on June 18, 2021, 06:18:45 PM
Used to say Richmond
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0383632,-77.7629452,3a,75y,20.28h,95.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0CWFI5rfwn_srLx7He95xw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1?hl=en
On both signs (https://goo.gl/maps/vbyd1amZFMmzvUvo9). Which isn't exactly best practice.
Also the "Via Whitakers-Enfield-Halifax-Weldon" in fine print. Never heard of those places in either NC or VA.
They're all in NC. Weldon is the only one of note, being right next to Roanoke Rapids and is where US 158 and 301 meet. The greened out part said Battleboro, which was annexed by Rocky Mount at some point.
While that sign isn't referring to it, there is also a Halifax in Virginia–it's on US-501 north of South Boston. I mention this because of his comment about never having heard of those places in either North Carolina or Virginia.
I passed through both Halifax and Enfield, NC, on the way south to Florida in May. We hit a backup on I-95 due construction and I bailed out for a while to get around the delay. Don't know whether we saved any time, but it felt better to be moving on the back roads than to be sitting still on the Interstate.
Should the term "control city" refer to the destinations listed at individual exits, or should the term be reserved for the long-distance places to which mileage counts down on an interstate?
I, personally, use the term only for the latter. A "control city" is the destination listed at a freeway-to-freeway junction. At Knoxville, you have control cities such as Chattanooga, Lexington, Nashville, and Asheville. But say you take I-75 north. The "control city" for the last exit in Tennessee -- to me anyway-- isn't Jellico. The destination is Jellico. And deeper into Kentucky, those aren't "control cities" at Exit 41 for KY 80. London and Somerset are destinations.
Is "control city" the accurate term for the places listed on exits along I-75 between the actual control cities of Knoxville and Lexington?
Quote from: hbelkins on July 15, 2021, 05:00:03 PM
Should the term "control city" refer to the destinations listed at individual exits, or should the term be reserved for the long-distance places to which mileage counts down on an interstate?
I, personally, use the term only for the latter. A "control city" is the destination listed at a freeway-to-freeway junction. At Knoxville, you have control cities such as Chattanooga, Lexington, Nashville, and Asheville. But say you take I-75 north. The "control city" for the last exit in Tennessee -- to me anyway-- isn't Jellico. The destination is Jellico. And deeper into Kentucky, those aren't "control cities" at Exit 41 for KY 80. London and Somerset are destinations.
Is "control city" the accurate term for the places listed on exits along I-75 between the actual control cities of Knoxville and Lexington?
The usage you describe tends to be the dominant usage among professionals, but I think it's a distinction without much of a difference. After all, if you exit to a non-Interstate route signed for some city, you're pretty likely to encounter signage on the non-Interstate route with mileage counting down to that city. The only thing that makes Interstate control cities special is that they tend to be further apart, and AASHTO maintains a list of them (which some states freely ignore). I don't know that they're functionally different enough to warrant a difference in terminology.
I-41 WI
Current: https://goo.gl/maps/3jz9gTuU8it3sERd7
Used to also say East-West: https://goo.gl/maps/rjEMFbHQf27LpShD6
For some reason, Arizona seems to hate control cities on non Interstate or US Highway Freeways.
None of the Phoenix area state highways or loops have control cities (except for one sign on E/B Loop 202 that lists Scottsdale and Chandler as control cities for Loop 101).
One oddity is AZ 85 where the N/B control cities are Phoenix and Los Angeles and the S/B control cities are Tucson and San Diego (because N/B uses I-10's control cities and S/B uses I-8's control cities).
Quote from: Big John on July 15, 2021, 09:31:13 PM
I-41 WI
Current: https://goo.gl/maps/3jz9gTuU8it3sERd7
Used to also say East-West: https://goo.gl/maps/rjEMFbHQf27LpShD6
The CTH-C exit in Kenosha County still has signs that say EAST-WEST. They are relatively new actually. I'm willing to bet they were the last of their kind installed in the state, as WisDOT will either use proper controls or omit them altogether and just have the route letter posted.
Another example here (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5878566,-82.5253482,3a,40.1y,154.19h,99.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYgTjihRMVj--ySw9Fi5D2g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). And I'm not sure what's up with the black lighting they installed in 2012, what are those supposed to do.
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 21, 2021, 11:51:27 PM
Another example here (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5878566,-82.5253482,3a,40.1y,154.19h,99.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYgTjihRMVj--ySw9Fi5D2g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). And I'm not sure what's up with the black lighting they installed in 2012, what are those supposed to do.
Light things up? :hmmm:
Quote from: kphoger on July 22, 2021, 09:12:39 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 21, 2021, 11:51:27 PM
Another example here (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5878566,-82.5253482,3a,40.1y,154.19h,99.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYgTjihRMVj--ySw9Fi5D2g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). And I'm not sure what's up with the black lighting they installed in 2012, what are those supposed to do.
Light things up? :hmmm:
I thought they stopped with the sign lighting
In Ontario, the OTM (Ontario Traffic Manual) states that control cities are not required in urban environments.
Thus, pretty much all overhead signs in Toronto do not have control cities. Exceptions are the 400 interchange (where it states Barrie) and 404 (where it's Newmarket)
(https://i.imgur.com/ceoLHtd.png)
Quote from: andrepoiy on July 23, 2021, 11:03:12 AM
In Ontario, the OTM (Ontario Traffic Manual) states that control cities are not required in urban environments.
Thus, pretty much all overhead signs in Toronto do not have control cities. Exceptions are the 400 interchange (where it states Barrie, and 404 where it's Newmarket)
That's such lazy guidance. I guess once you get into a metro area, you have no need to find a way to bypass said metro? Or even, navigate to certain cities within the same metro region? (Think Aurora and Schaumburg within Chicagoland)
Quote from: JoePCool14 on July 23, 2021, 11:13:02 AM
That's such lazy guidance. I guess once you get into a metro area, you have no need to find a way to bypass said metro? Or even, navigate to certain cities within the same metro region? (Think Aurora and Schaumburg within Chicagoland)
I think you mean "Western Suburbs"...
Quote from: JoePCool14 on July 23, 2021, 11:13:02 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on July 23, 2021, 11:03:12 AM
In Ontario, the OTM (Ontario Traffic Manual) states that control cities are not required in urban environments.
Thus, pretty much all overhead signs in Toronto do not have control cities. Exceptions are the 400 interchange (where it states Barrie, and 404 where it's Newmarket)
That's such lazy guidance. I guess once you get into a metro area, you have no need to find a way to bypass said metro? Or even, navigate to certain cities within the same metro region? (Think Aurora and Schaumburg within Chicagoland)
Well the thing is, if there were control cities here, 401 would be "Toronto", 427 would also be "Toronto"... because the city is amalgamated
Quote from: andrepoiy on July 23, 2021, 12:38:41 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on July 23, 2021, 11:13:02 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on July 23, 2021, 11:03:12 AM
In Ontario, the OTM (Ontario Traffic Manual) states that control cities are not required in urban environments.
Thus, pretty much all overhead signs in Toronto do not have control cities. Exceptions are the 400 interchange (where it states Barrie, and 404 where it's Newmarket)
That's such lazy guidance. I guess once you get into a metro area, you have no need to find a way to bypass said metro? Or even, navigate to certain cities within the same metro region? (Think Aurora and Schaumburg within Chicagoland)
Well the thing is, if there were control cities here, 401 would be "Toronto", 427 would also be "Toronto"... because the city is amalgamated
Could do 'Alderwood' or 'Long Branch' for 427, 'North York' or 'Scarborough' for 401, or some combination like that.
Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 01:14:48 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on July 23, 2021, 12:38:41 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on July 23, 2021, 11:13:02 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on July 23, 2021, 11:03:12 AM
In Ontario, the OTM (Ontario Traffic Manual) states that control cities are not required in urban environments.
Thus, pretty much all overhead signs in Toronto do not have control cities. Exceptions are the 400 interchange (where it states Barrie, and 404 where it's Newmarket)
That's such lazy guidance. I guess once you get into a metro area, you have no need to find a way to bypass said metro? Or even, navigate to certain cities within the same metro region? (Think Aurora and Schaumburg within Chicagoland)
Well the thing is, if there were control cities here, 401 would be "Toronto", 427 would also be "Toronto"... because the city is amalgamated
Could do 'Alderwood' or 'Long Branch' for 427, 'North York' or 'Scarborough' for 401, or some combination like that.
Fair. I think if it were me, I'd do Scarborough (since it's the eastern end of Toronto) for 401, and Toronto (Downtown) and Mississauga for 427, as the freeway is very close to the border. Nobody knows what Alderwood or Long Branch are lol
Quote from: andrepoiy on July 23, 2021, 01:27:26 PM
Nobody knows what Alderwood or Long Branch are lol
Wondered about that.
Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 01:29:46 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on July 23, 2021, 01:27:26 PM
Nobody knows what Alderwood or Long Branch are lol
Wondered about that.
Maybe people would know if they were used. I feel some cases of control city may be chicken or egg situations. You can't put something down as a control because no one knows what the place is.
Quote from: JoePCool14 on July 26, 2021, 12:21:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 01:29:46 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on July 23, 2021, 01:27:26 PM
Nobody knows what Alderwood or Long Branch are lol
Wondered about that.
Maybe people would know if they were used. I feel some cases of control city may be chicken or egg situations. You can't put something down as a control because no one knows what the place is.
I can't think of a case where having a control city would not be helpful. Even if the last city the highway passes through is relatively small, it is still a location that it reaches. For the most part, before the absolute end of the highway, there is likely an interchange where most of the traffic will migrate to. If that is the case, then that city would be an appropriate control.
As an example, the Rockford control that is used on I-290 in the Chicago area. I-290 ends at I-90 which leads to Rockford. I-290 also continues as the IL-53 expressway, which only goes for a few more miles. Rockford is an appropriate control (but not necessarioly the most appropriate)* since it leads you in that direction. And a more local control (perhaps Deer Park) would be appropriate for IL-53.
But in no case would it be appropriate to say no control for I-290 since it doesn't directly go to any big city in the westbound direction.
* I personally prefer Schaumburg.
What would MA 88's control city be southbound, then? It's entirely in Westport, but at some point, you're heading away from the center.
Or for that matter, the Lowell Connector away from I-495/US 3?
Can't they jus add control cities in this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7839368,-78.4436534,3a,15y,137.41h,91.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s68pZEPgUUfCACPRrhKLMRA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) sign??!!
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 27, 2021, 08:28:38 PM
Can't they jus add control cities in this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7839368,-78.4436534,3a,15y,137.41h,91.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s68pZEPgUUfCACPRrhKLMRA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) sign??!!
Why? They're on
this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/RMP7X7n217mjx7EAA).
Quote from: formulanone on June 18, 2021, 08:50:36 PM
Roadgeeks need a comic book superhero, and I think it should be The Green Arrow.
Ah!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/5521/31301641062_a6d2f88de8_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PG26mA)
must be a rest area there...
would this include exit signs with no control city, or road listed?
there's one in eastern colorado somewhere on i-70 (sorry, slow link can't do a gsv from here) but its exit 3-something.. way out in the boonies and the sign just says 'exit 3xx 1 mile' . no road, no control citry (and what would they use out here.. a cow?) and i think it goes down to a dirt road.
Quote from: mrsman on July 27, 2021, 07:49:33 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on July 26, 2021, 12:21:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 23, 2021, 01:29:46 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on July 23, 2021, 01:27:26 PM
Nobody knows what Alderwood or Long Branch are lol
Wondered about that.
Maybe people would know if they were used. I feel some cases of control city may be chicken or egg situations. You can't put something down as a control because no one knows what the place is.
I can't think of a case where having a control city would not be helpful. Even if the last city the highway passes through is relatively small, it is still a location that it reaches. For the most part, before the absolute end of the highway, there is likely an interchange where most of the traffic will migrate to. If that is the case, then that city would be an appropriate control.
As an example, the Rockford control that is used on I-290 in the Chicago area. I-290 ends at I-90 which leads to Rockford. I-290 also continues as the IL-53 expressway, which only goes for a few more miles. Rockford is an appropriate control (but not necessarioly the most appropriate)* since it leads you in that direction. And a more local control (perhaps Deer Park) would be appropriate for IL-53.
But in no case would it be appropriate to say no control for I-290 since it doesn't directly go to any big city in the westbound direction.
* I personally prefer Schaumburg.
That was a poorly phrased post on my part. I should clear up and say that I am 100 percent in favor of controls, even if they aren't as well-known. I was trying to say that the places would become more well-known if they were used as controls, solving the entire problem.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on July 28, 2021, 10:04:06 AM
there's one in eastern colorado somewhere on i-70 (sorry, slow link can't do a gsv from here) but its exit 3-something.. way out in the boonies and the sign just says 'exit 3xx 1 mile' .
Probably this one. (https://goo.gl/maps/LYSZUSehywkChB1K7)
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on July 28, 2021, 10:04:06 AM
no road, no control citry (and what would they use out here.. a cow?) and i think it goes down to a dirt road.
County Road 118, at the very least, considering
that's the intersecting road (https://goo.gl/maps/TKEw2UfB1VsFPBZF7).
or County Road 187, considering
that's the road in the other direction (https://goo.gl/maps/SWb4zGrJXNz1G8wH7).
Quote from: kphoger on July 28, 2021, 09:31:35 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 27, 2021, 08:28:38 PM
Can't they jus add control cities in this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7839368,-78.4436534,3a,15y,137.41h,91.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s68pZEPgUUfCACPRrhKLMRA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) sign??!!
Why? They're on this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/RMP7X7n217mjx7EAA).
It would be better if they were all on one sign.
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 28, 2021, 01:55:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 28, 2021, 09:31:35 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 27, 2021, 08:28:38 PM
Can't they jus add control cities in this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7839368,-78.4436534,3a,15y,137.41h,91.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s68pZEPgUUfCACPRrhKLMRA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) sign??!!
Why? They're on this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/RMP7X7n217mjx7EAA).
It would be better if they were all on one sign.
Nah. With that many concurrent routes you may run the risk of message overload if you throw everything onto one huge sign
Quote from: US 89 on July 28, 2021, 02:07:20 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 28, 2021, 01:55:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 28, 2021, 09:31:35 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 27, 2021, 08:28:38 PM
Can't they jus add control cities in this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7839368,-78.4436534,3a,15y,137.41h,91.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s68pZEPgUUfCACPRrhKLMRA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) sign??!!
Why? They're on this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/RMP7X7n217mjx7EAA).
It would be better if they were all on one sign.
Nah. With that many concurrent routes you may run the risk of message overload if you throw everything onto one huge sign
So it's probably because it has two control cities instead of one going in the same direction
Quote from: US 89 on July 28, 2021, 02:07:20 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 28, 2021, 01:55:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 28, 2021, 09:31:35 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 27, 2021, 08:28:38 PM
Can't they jus add control cities in this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7839368,-78.4436534,3a,15y,137.41h,91.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s68pZEPgUUfCACPRrhKLMRA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) sign??!!
Why? They're on this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/RMP7X7n217mjx7EAA).
It would be better if they were all on one sign.
Nah. With that many concurrent routes you may run the risk of message overload if you throw everything onto one huge sign
Exactly what I was thinking. Putting everything "all on one sign" isn't always the best idea, if you actually expect people to read and comprehend all the information contained therein.
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 28, 2021, 02:17:31 PM
So it's probably because it has two control cities instead of one going in the same direction
3 destinations
6 route shields
6 directionals
4 2 arrows
That's a lot of information to expect people to take in all at once while driving.
Quote from: 1 on July 27, 2021, 08:18:14 PM
What would MA 88's control city be southbound, then? It's entirely in Westport, but at some point, you're heading away from the center.
Or for that matter, the Lowell Connector away from I-495/US 3?
Horseneck Beach for MA 88.
And it looks like it is signed as such from I-195:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6748728,-71.0950359,3a,75y,157.55h,91.08t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIAqJs6RY1Xq3HYg3CID7eQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
And the Lowell connector's control city can be Lowell or Central Lowell.
It's true that at some point, perhaps a street name for the last exit will have to be used as a control, but not for these.
It is done so in CA on the truncated I-710. Supposed to reach Pasadena, but stops at Valley Blvd in Alhambra. Alhambra would be an OK control, but in the part north of I-5, Valley Blvd is the control. (For most of the freeway, Pasadena is the control, even though there is no hope that this highway will ever be completed that far.)
Quote from: Ned Weasel on June 18, 2021, 11:23:33 AM
Quite a few in Kansas:
US 69:
https://goo.gl/maps/HC3V3AH2HpfRRw1RA
By definition I-435 should not have a control city. It is a loop. Maybe it should reference the airport or it should be noted like I-20 at I-220 By- Pass https://goo.gl/maps/eQQQxzMEwfCLxnQ6A
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 15, 2021, 07:56:10 PMQuote from: hbelkins on July 15, 2021, 05:00:03 PMShould the term "control city" refer to the destinations listed at individual exits, or should the term be reserved for the long-distance places to which mileage counts down on an interstate?
I, personally, use the term only for the latter. A "control city" is the destination listed at a freeway-to-freeway junction. At Knoxville, you have control cities such as Chattanooga, Lexington, Nashville, and Asheville. But say you take I-75 north. The "control city" for the last exit in Tennessee -- to me anyway-- isn't Jellico. The destination is Jellico. And deeper into Kentucky, those aren't "control cities" at Exit 41 for KY 80. London and Somerset are destinations.
Is "control city" the accurate term for the places listed on exits along I-75 between the actual control cities of Knoxville and Lexington?
The usage you describe tends to be the dominant usage among professionals, but I think it's a distinction without much of a difference. After all, if you exit to a non-Interstate route signed for some city, you're pretty likely to encounter signage on the non-Interstate route with mileage counting down to that city. The only thing that makes Interstate control cities special is that they tend to be further apart, and AASHTO maintains a list of them (which some states freely ignore). I don't know that they're functionally different enough to warrant a difference in terminology.
I would say they are, but whether that distinction is observed in casual conversation among road enthusiasts is another question altogether--it's a bit like the running difference of opinion about whether "Super Two" should be understood to refer to a two-lane freeway or to a highly improved two-lane road with full paved shoulders, easy curves, high speed limit, etc. that nevertheless has flat intersections.
Personally, I use the term
control city in the narrow practitioner's sense that H.B. refers to. Control cities are a proper subset of signed destinations and have the special property of being intended for forward signing on the road under discussion, in such a way that the signing flips over to the next control city once the current one has been reached. If someone on here says
control city, I look for clues from the context that the usage isn't necessarily limited to destinations on pull-through signs or the second or final line on post-interchange confirmation signs.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 18, 2021, 03:06:01 PM
it's a bit like the running difference of opinion about whether "Super Two" should be understood to refer to a two-lane freeway or to a highly improved two-lane road with full paved shoulders, easy curves, high speed limit, etc. that nevertheless has flat intersections.
Someone should totally start a thread about that.
[/sarc]
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 18, 2021, 03:06:01 PM
Personally, I use the term control city in the narrow practitioner's sense that H.B. refers to. Control cities are a proper subset of signed destinations and have the special property of being intended for forward signing on the road under discussion, in such a way that the signing flips over to the next control city once the current one has been reached.
Is that not the case with destinations on conventional-road signing in most states? Forward signing on roads in Oklahoma generally carries over to the post-junction destination signage. There is a little bit of squirrelliness regarding the consistency of further-away destinations, and what happens during a concurrency, but I have always just attributed that to Oklahoma being Oklahoma.
Quote from: tolbs17 on June 18, 2021, 12:14:13 AM
Must be a state or US highway.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.4347004,-78.0653475,3a,18y,117.64h,90.11t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFd4SgIByzVu-49sd7I2yMg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8919716,-76.5313031,3a,15y,303.41h,91.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXCo3H4ae_jaryef1Ccp7og!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7659137,-77.9612187,3a,15.1y,335.59h,91.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCnlqMAXL9MC87D2zx6D8bA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1 - The other side as well has no control city.
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.5202206,-77.5857264,3a,44.4y,20.93h,87.03t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNvZi8QPZQ0HRWkFwgNK9FA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1
Most of the time that this happens in California, the "Control City" is either the old name of the road or the name of the other road to which the road inevitably leads. For Example:
CASR-87 often has a "Control City" or either "Guadalupe Parkway" or "to CASR-85".
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 18, 2021, 03:35:11 PMIs that not the case with destinations on conventional-road signing in most states? Forward signing on roads in Oklahoma generally carries over to the post-junction destination signage. There is a little bit of squirrelliness regarding the consistency of further-away destinations, and what happens during a concurrency, but I have always just attributed that to Oklahoma being Oklahoma.
A destination is just a placename on a sign. Many of the examples in this thread are of freeway advance guide or exit direction signs with just a route shield (no destination), which is a different kettle of fish from pull-through signs with shields but no destinations (often the result of policy in states like Kansas that jettisoned control city signing for loops). On conventional roads, many destinations that appear on signs would not form part of a control-city network rationally designed to guide long-distance traffic--examples include small towns between county seats, hamlets reached "Via County Road," and so on.
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 18, 2021, 06:02:16 PM
pull-through signs with shields but no destinations
Which is specifically depicted in MUTCD E6-2.
(https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/images/fig2e_02.gif)
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 18, 2021, 06:02:16 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 18, 2021, 03:35:11 PMIs that not the case with destinations on conventional-road signing in most states? Forward signing on roads in Oklahoma generally carries over to the post-junction destination signage. There is a little bit of squirrelliness regarding the consistency of further-away destinations, and what happens during a concurrency, but I have always just attributed that to Oklahoma being Oklahoma.
A destination is just a placename on a sign. Many of the examples in this thread are of freeway advance guide or exit direction signs with just a route shield (no destination), which is a different kettle of fish from pull-through signs with shields but no destinations (often the result of policy in states like Kansas that jettisoned control city signing for loops). On conventional roads, many destinations that appear on signs would not form part of a control-city network rationally designed to guide long-distance traffic--examples include small towns between county seats, hamlets reached "Via County Road," and so on.
I sort of get what you're saying–that "destinations" tend to be lower-importance places that aren't useful for long-range traffic. But at the same time, I'm used to some conventional-road destinations being used in much the same way as control cities are.
For example, on SH-152 westbound in western Oklahoma:
- SH-152/SH-37 departing US-81: destinations Binger/Cordell. Post-junction mileage sign, Binger and Cordell (59 miles).
- SH-37 departing from SH-152: SH-152 forward destination is Cordell. Post-junction mileage sign, Binger and Cordell.
- SH-152 at US-281 junction: US-281 (and its follow route SH-8) starts a concurrency with SH-152 at this junction. SH-152 forward destination is now Binger (which is the location where the two routes split, 5 miles distant). Post-junction mileage sign, Binger and Cordell.
- US-281 departing from SH-152 in Binger: SH-152 forward destination returns to being Cordell. Mileage sign leaving town, Cordell (37 miles) and Sayre (73 miles).
- SH-152 and SH-146 junction: SH-152 forward destination is Cordell. Post-junction mileage sign, Cordell and Sayre.
- SH-152 at SH-58 junction: SH-58 starts a concurrency with SH-152 at this junction. SH-152 forward destination is Cordell. Post-junction mileage sign, Carnegie (a town on SH-58 post-split) and Cordell.
- SH-58 departing SH-152: SH-152 forward destination is Cordell. Post-junction mileage sign, Cordell and Sayre.
And so on. Now, to some degree, consistency is forced here by lack of suitable destinations
other than Cordell and Sayre. But at the same time, Cordell and Sayre are being treated the same way that an Interstate control city would be, and similar practices are used in more built-up areas as well. It seems a little odd to insist that Cordell cannot be called a control city simply because it is a destination on a system that is of a more local scope than the Interstate system. Cordell is of the same proportional importance to SH-152 as Joplin is to I-44, it's simply a matter of scale.
If anybody can tell me what these extra spaces on the sign were, I would love to know about it
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.798822,-78.1845131,3a,23.3y,299.68h,91.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snD-z-GQyZK6pb2d0qJ8YkQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7626841,-77.9900885,3a,44.6y,327.34h,90.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKYes4iI6V85P7LEtUWj4XQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
For the Middlesex sign, I believe it was either Spring Hope or Wendell but I'm not honestly sure!
And for the Raleigh one I don't know...
Quote from: tolbs17 on October 21, 2021, 01:39:02 PM
And for the Raleigh one I don't know...
I don't know either, but maybe Zebulon? It's where US 264 joins US 64.
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 21, 2021, 05:59:42 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on October 21, 2021, 01:39:02 PM
And for the Raleigh one I don't know...
I don't know either, but maybe Zebulon? It's where US 264 joins US 64.
Between 1994 and 1999 US-264 was extended to Raleigh so the former terminus was in Zebulon.
"By definition I-435 should not have a control city. It is a loop. "
I was in DC area, and saw Tysons Corner on signs for the Capitol Beltway, I-495. Also, Baltimore.
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 21, 2021, 05:59:42 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on October 21, 2021, 01:39:02 PM
And for the Raleigh one I don't know...
I don't know either, but maybe Zebulon? It's where US 264 joins US 64.
More evidence... Sims became the new control city on this sign.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7831883,-78.0002627,3a,15y,245.9h,91.03t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sgo_zYxOXpmGvWFytNJtjlw!2e0!5s20210501T000000!7i16384!8i8192
Old control city was most likely Zebulon and then changed to Raleigh for a brief amount of time (I think?).
For all I know when Sims became the new control city, the old control city was most likely Zebulon or Raleigh.
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:59:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger on July 22, 2021, 09:12:39 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 21, 2021, 11:51:27 PM
Another example here (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5878566,-82.5253482,3a,40.1y,154.19h,99.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYgTjihRMVj--ySw9Fi5D2g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). And I'm not sure what's up with the black lighting they installed in 2012, what are those supposed to do.
Light things up? :hmmm:
I thought they stopped with the sign lighting
(EDIT, Sorry hit POST by mistake)
The sign isn't retroreflective. There are very few modern signs on I-240.
What puzzled me about that stretch are the gore signs. The number is way low on the sign.
Quote from: OracleUsr on October 24, 2021, 09:50:46 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 22, 2021, 11:59:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger on July 22, 2021, 09:12:39 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 21, 2021, 11:51:27 PM
Another example here (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.5878566,-82.5253482,3a,40.1y,154.19h,99.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYgTjihRMVj--ySw9Fi5D2g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). And I'm not sure what's up with the black lighting they installed in 2012, what are those supposed to do.
Light things up? :hmmm:
I thought they stopped with the sign lighting
(EDIT, Sorry hit POST by mistake)
The sign isn't retroreflective. There are very few modern signs on I-240.
What puzzled me about that stretch are the gore signs. The number is way low on the sign.
When I-240 gets rebuilt I'm sure all those signs will be replaced. And if it's not retroreflective, then are they button copy?
Quote from: bwana39 on August 18, 2021, 02:39:10 PM
Quote from: Ned Weasel on June 18, 2021, 11:23:33 AM
Quite a few in Kansas:
US 69:
https://goo.gl/maps/HC3V3AH2HpfRRw1RA
By definition I-435 should not have a control city. It is a loop.
Quote from: US20IL64 on October 22, 2021, 02:27:15 PM
I was in DC area, and saw Tysons Corner on signs for the Capitol Beltway, I-495. Also, Baltimore.
There are generally 3 schools of thought for control cities for loops (and possibly extrapolated to other 3di):
1) No control cities. As these are suburban loops, they do not pass through large cities, so no city should be listed at all.
2) Use different suburban points that the roadway passes through as the controls. The west side of the Capitol Beltway was given as an example utilizing Tysons Corner, Bethesda, Silver Spring, and College Park in parts. [The east side as being both 495 and 95 does follow the 2di convention of large cities and generally uses Baltimore or Richmond as the control for the entire stretch.]
3) Use control cities for the 2dis that the belt route will intersect with. This is common in the south and the midwest. Example, is Atlanta's I-285 where the control cities of the next approaching 2di are used (Greenville, Augusta, Macon, Montgomery, Birmingham, and Chattanooga). To an extent there is some nuance involved in picking the right control, and you'd prefer a control where most of the traffic would like to go, and would provide for little backtracking.
As a general manner, I prefer #3, but I could see #2 being more meaningful in certain circumstances. But in my view, control cities are likely more helpful than not, and simply being a loop is not a good enough reason to leave out the controls.
For the specific example posted of I-435 westbound at US 69 in Overalnd Park, KS, I beleive a good control would be Lawrence, since I-435 is basically east-west at this point, and most traffic heading west will continue west and default onto KS-10. Other possibilities also include Wichita (if traffic bound for I-35 south uses I-435 as a short cut) or St. Joseph (ditto for I-29 north traffic). As Wichita is signed for I-435 west in Missouri at the I-49/US 71/ I-470 interchange, it is very appropriate and probably should be mentioned here as well. Another factor for including Wichita is that I-435 westbound is also US 50 westbound. While US 50 does not itself go to Wichita, the hidden designation in this area follows I-435 west to I-35 south, which does head to Wichita.
Given all of the above, my preference is dual controls of Lawrence and Wichita, but if only once can fit, Wichita should be the primary control.
Good summary posted above.
"... Use control cities for the 2dis that the belt route will intersect with. "
Used for I-294 and 290 in Chicagoland.
While I-355 has "different suburban points"; Joliet or NW and SW Suburbs.
Before... (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9773004,-83.1556565,3a,29.6y,101.16h,97.84t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6aTLcfdFlrZw2FMoWUNATA!2e0!5s20150701T000000!7i13312!8i6656) and after! (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.977358,-83.1562169,3a,47.9y,98.33h,95.75t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srpjj8h0yizhXeds_Q4xmww!2e0!5s20210701T000000!7i16384!8i8192)
I don't get any reason why they took them off.
Quote from: tolbs17 on October 28, 2021, 10:08:50 AM
Before... (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9773004,-83.1556565,3a,29.6y,101.16h,97.84t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6aTLcfdFlrZw2FMoWUNATA!2e0!5s20150701T000000!7i13312!8i6656) and after! (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.977358,-83.1562169,3a,47.9y,98.33h,95.75t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srpjj8h0yizhXeds_Q4xmww!2e0!5s20210701T000000!7i16384!8i8192)
I don't get any reason why they took them off.
Must be because I-270 doesn't go to either Cincinnati or Cleveland :bigass:
Quote from: jmacswimmer on October 28, 2021, 10:30:54 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on October 28, 2021, 10:08:50 AM
Before... (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9773004,-83.1556565,3a,29.6y,101.16h,97.84t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6aTLcfdFlrZw2FMoWUNATA!2e0!5s20150701T000000!7i13312!8i6656) and after! (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.977358,-83.1562169,3a,47.9y,98.33h,95.75t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srpjj8h0yizhXeds_Q4xmww!2e0!5s20210701T000000!7i16384!8i8192)
I don't get any reason why they took them off.
Must be because I-270 doesn't go to either Cincinnati or Cleveland :bigass:
But in North Carolina, I-485 has control cities on them...
The Glendale Freeway has no control cities on the overhead BGS's. Maybe Glendale is a mythical place...LOL!
Rick
Quote from: tolbs17 on October 28, 2021, 10:32:46 AM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on October 28, 2021, 10:30:54 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on October 28, 2021, 10:08:50 AM
Before... (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9773004,-83.1556565,3a,29.6y,101.16h,97.84t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6aTLcfdFlrZw2FMoWUNATA!2e0!5s20150701T000000!7i13312!8i6656) and after! (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.977358,-83.1562169,3a,47.9y,98.33h,95.75t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1srpjj8h0yizhXeds_Q4xmww!2e0!5s20210701T000000!7i16384!8i8192)
I don't get any reason why they took them off.
Must be because I-270 doesn't go to either Cincinnati or Cleveland :bigass:
But in North Carolina, I-485 has control cities on them...
The difference is that I-485 actually reaches its control cities of Pineville/Matthews/Huntersville (Which are not the control cities I would have selected; I would have preferred that I-485 use the control cities of its intersecting routes such as Greensboro, Columbia, etc)
As for the OP, an example of a route with no control cities is SC 22 in the westbound direction. Eastbound its control cities are Myrtle Beach and North Myrtle Beach. Westbound it has no control cities whatsoever, not on the directional signs, and there are no mileage signs with control cities in that direction either.
The new signs for US 54/400 (Kellogg Avenue Freeway) and K-96 from I-35/Kansas Turnpike have no control cities (and don't even say "Wichita").
https://goo.gl/maps/Wq4JzBD5fSadDUQ9A
https://goo.gl/maps/cvTWYAy12tLEJ7MG8
https://goo.gl/maps/Ms4hAqyPrsoYCwRQ7
https://goo.gl/maps/hDEhFK5NsrsyCHAP8
As a side note, you may have noticed that the exit formerly signed for US 54/400/Kellogg Avenue and Wichita is now signed simply as "Webb Road," which actually makes sense if you're familiar with the design of the new set of interchanges.
This sign confuses me. I-440 doesn't take you to Rocky Mount or Wilson or even Wake Forest! Sanford as well...
There should be no control cities on these signs. Period.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.837026,-78.6724127,3a,42.3y,122.92h,104.46t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sFJ4piYd2TB_S9EqCby1ocA!2e0!5s20150701T000000!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: tolbs17 on November 21, 2021, 04:57:22 PM
This sign confuses me. I-440 doesn't take you to Rocky Mount or Wilson or even Wake Forest! Sanford as well...
There should be no control cities on these signs. Period.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.837026,-78.6724127,3a,42.3y,122.92h,104.46t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sFJ4piYd2TB_S9EqCby1ocA!2e0!5s20150701T000000!7i16384!8i8192
Sanford is a straight shot with no turns, and you're also continuously on US 1. Why shouldn't it be signed?
Quote from: 1 on November 21, 2021, 05:54:03 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on November 21, 2021, 04:57:22 PM
This sign confuses me. I-440 doesn't take you to Rocky Mount or Wilson or even Wake Forest! Sanford as well...
There should be no control cities on these signs. Period.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.837026,-78.6724127,3a,42.3y,122.92h,104.46t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sFJ4piYd2TB_S9EqCby1ocA!2e0!5s20150701T000000!7i16384!8i8192
Sanford is a straight shot with no turns, and you're also continuously on US 1. Why shouldn't it be signed?
Because there's no US Highway on them...
They need to take some of the destinations off of the I-440 east sign though, to reduce the message loading (MUTCD guidance is to have one destination for each of those three signs, assuming the pull-through sign is necessary to reduce/avoid confusion)
I-5 from Downtown San Diego is simply labelled as SOUTH as a control city heading to the San Ysidro.
Quote from: kphoger on July 28, 2021, 02:20:48 PM
Quote from: US 89 on July 28, 2021, 02:07:20 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 28, 2021, 01:55:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on July 28, 2021, 09:31:35 AM
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 27, 2021, 08:28:38 PM
Can't they jus add control cities in this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7839368,-78.4436534,3a,15y,137.41h,91.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s68pZEPgUUfCACPRrhKLMRA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) sign??!!
Why? They're on this sign (https://goo.gl/maps/RMP7X7n217mjx7EAA).
It would be better if they were all on one sign.
Nah. With that many concurrent routes you may run the risk of message overload if you throw everything onto one huge sign
Exactly what I was thinking. Putting everything "all on one sign" isn't always the best idea, if you actually expect people to read and comprehend all the information contained therein.
Quote from: tolbs17 on July 28, 2021, 02:17:31 PM
So it's probably because it has two control cities instead of one going in the same direction
3 destinations
6 route shields
6 directionals
4 2 arrows
That's a lot of information to expect people to take in all at once while driving.
The ironic thing is that this (https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7817743,-78.4388714,3a,15y,335.05h,93.62t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1snqLqWFnRVah3jlZj8h6nWw!2e0!5s20211001T000000!7i16384!8i8192) sign has all of that information on it!
This sign has the control cities,
I-85
https://maps.app.goo.gl/2ftWruuz9vrHspV3A
But this one on the other side does not?
I-85
https://maps.app.goo.gl/e5LS2UvBpQ1NFdCc7
Same thing here
US-64
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7nHqdJw1jgvddLmx8
And on the other side
US-64
https://maps.app.goo.gl/wfxu484Uh7kka1FJA
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 06, 2022, 09:46:08 PM
This sign has the control cities,
I-85
https://maps.app.goo.gl/2ftWruuz9vrHspV3A
But this one on the other side does not?
I-85
https://maps.app.goo.gl/e5LS2UvBpQ1NFdCc7
Same thing here
US-64
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7nHqdJw1jgvddLmx8
And on the other side
US-64
https://maps.app.goo.gl/wfxu484Uh7kka1FJA
In the case of the I-85 examples, both control cities are many miles south of the interchange. So it makes sense to show the control cities on the southbound exit, but not northbound as you are several miles past the cities at that point.
Similar with your US-64 examples.
Jeezuz H, when are you going to move out of your mother's basement and stop spending all your time searching Google Maps for every possible North Carolina signing oddity?
Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 15, 2021, 10:49:59 AM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 18, 2021, 11:29:42 PM
ISTHA has several of these on one stretch I-90 alone. This isn't uncommon enough to warrant a thread.
I'll just make a blanket statement here about Illinois's toll highways (maintained by ISTHA, as previously mentioned)-- any exit on an Illinois tollway that isn't to another expressway* will not have any control cities mentioned on the sign. The control cities will be mentioned on a single separate sign usually within 1/2 mile of the exit, with text on the bottom that says "NEXT RIGHT".
Seems like there's a cutoff for the use of control cities for I-90 and I-88:
* I-90 at IL 47 at control cities on the main signs (https://goo.gl/maps/76x7as5xVxKE3RKr5)
* The new interchange on I-90 at IL 23 has control cities. (https://goo.gl/maps/9HR5i9HBfgouoDQu6)
* DeKalb shows up with To IL 38/IL 23 at the Annie Glidden Road exit (https://goo.gl/maps/QKfNewBDLkBXXTgH8). Note the adjacent 13 mile advance sign for I-39 and US 51 without any control cities.
* Control cities are used for the IL 251 exit from I-88 (https://goo.gl/maps/oVMAjaxBnf494Fg6A)
Quote from: wanderer2575 on February 06, 2022, 10:20:30 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 06, 2022, 09:46:08 PM
This sign has the control cities,
I-85
https://maps.app.goo.gl/2ftWruuz9vrHspV3A
But this one on the other side does not?
I-85
https://maps.app.goo.gl/e5LS2UvBpQ1NFdCc7
Same thing here
US-64
https://maps.app.goo.gl/7nHqdJw1jgvddLmx8
And on the other side
US-64
https://maps.app.goo.gl/wfxu484Uh7kka1FJA
In the case of the I-85 examples, both control cities are many miles south of the interchange. So it makes sense to show the control cities on the southbound exit, but not northbound as you are several miles past the cities at that point.
Similar with your US-64 examples.
Jeezuz H, when are you going to move out of your mother's basement and stop spending all your time searching Google Maps for every possible North Carolina signing oddity?
No idea, honestly. I just find it interesting that one side has the control cities and the other side doesn't.
Quote from: bing101 on November 21, 2021, 06:56:20 PM
I-5 from Downtown San Diego is simply labelled as SOUTH as a control city heading to the San Ysidro.
Yeah, I was going to say, as someone more used to other parts of CA, the San Diego area has a lot of this and it was surprising to see, though in some cases it gives a theme of "there's nothing south of here, except Mexico".
Another example: 905 exit from 805 in San Ysidro: https://www.google.com/maps/@32.5746829,-117.0393102,3a,75y,191.28h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sszHrM6kFWGv6C8i5FN-bmw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Notably, in the LA area, 605 south from 210E (and maybe other places too) has no control city: https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1354988,-117.9642487,3a,75y,95.09h,87.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srcU71aeL_unrzbNqKcFC-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
FWIW, the only two acceptable situations are if a freeway:
a. has already entered the city where it would eventually end
b. is under construction, especially with several disconnected segments
Quote from: Henry on March 10, 2022, 01:36:46 PM
FWIW, the only two acceptable situations are if a freeway:
a. has already entered the city where it would eventually end
b. is under construction, especially with several disconnected segments
And even (a) is not really an excuse if the freeway ends at or connects to another freeway, those control cities should be used in that case.
NCDOT is moving away from putting control cities on the beltways. All the TO trailblazers are going away. Guidance is to have one (I think)? Or none at all?
Old signs - https://goo.gl/maps/jPxbCVdv8D6gHLcQ6
Newer ones - https://goo.gl/maps/Bf3N1azB194Lro25A
They will be replaced again so they can say 540/WEST/EAST
https://goo.gl/maps/G3uTmbyY4mNikFQo7 (is being replaced by a sign with just one TO) sign which is at a obvious location - NC 540 toll.
https://goo.gl/maps/fQvkSqgunSnenYgHA I would take TO US-1 off on the right sign since it runs through a bottlenecked area of the city and they replaced the sign to reflect that change before the eastern segment of I-540 opened in January 2007. I don't think it's necessary to have that there, really. You already have this - https://goo.gl/maps/84MWUsG37L7qWjbf8
Quote from: ran4sh on March 10, 2022, 01:49:30 PM
Quote from: Henry on March 10, 2022, 01:36:46 PM
FWIW, the only two acceptable situations are if a freeway:
a. has already entered the city where it would eventually end
b. is under construction, especially with several disconnected segments
And even (a) is not really an excuse if the freeway ends at or connects to another freeway, those control cities should be used in that case.
Agreed. A freeway obviously goes somewhere. I can't think of an example where a freeway, even after reaching its destination city, could not be named for some place that it has yet to reach. That may not be a city, per se, but it can be a neighborhood or a landmark, or yes, the control cities of connecting routes if the freeway ends at an interchange. Even a cross-street may be acceptable as a control in limited circumstances.
Example: I-710, in the L.A. area has Pasadena as its northbound control. Of course, the northernmost section of the freeway that would connect to Pasadena has never been built. Different ways to get to Pasadena involving either freeway backtracking (using CA-2 freeway), freeways that don't allow trucks (CA-110 freeway), or various surface street connections (taking I-10 to Rosemead Blvd is one signed alternative).* In the area near the northern part of I-710 (basically everywhere north of I-5), the official control for the freeway changes from Pasadena to Valley Blvd. This is an acceptable control, under the circumstances, although Alhambra should also be feasible. (I-710 meets Valley Blvd at the Alhambra/L.A. border.)
And to keep with the topic, here is another freeway without control cities: MD-200. This is the Intercouty Connector Toll road that is north of the Captial Beltway in the DC area. This freeway connects Gaithersburg to Laurel, which are both sizable suburbs and would be fine controls for this local freeway. Yet, practically all of its signs are signed as to I-270 for westbound and to I-95 (and US 1) for eastbound. There is no good reason for this.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0754269,-76.9530828,3a,75y,32.44h,81.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCoc3gzh3Q7J0CCsZNd85UA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
* In my opinion, none of these are actually signed that well, so if you are not careful, you may miss the guidance to I-10 east and Rosemead Blvd. I think, given the heavy truck traffic on I-710 that connects directly to the Long Beach Port, Caltrans did not want to sign an official route that would get the bulk of this traffic, so people on 710 who are headed to Pasadena are left to their own devices (i.e. Waze)
Quote from: mrsman on March 14, 2022, 08:07:54 PM
Agreed. A freeway obviously goes somewhere. I can't think of an example where a freeway, even after reaching its destination city, could not be named for some place that it has yet to reach. That may not be a city, per se, but it can be a neighborhood or a landmark, or yes, the control cities of connecting routes if the freeway ends at an interchange. Even a cross-street may be acceptable as a control in limited circumstances.
Kinda like this? (https://goo.gl/maps/7u3XYvWRrLkR3zis8)
I guess for Ontario's logic, the MTO probably think that people travelling within the city already know where they're going, or most trips are local trips, and therefore they don't sign controls within urban areas.
Quote from: ethanhopkin14 on March 15, 2022, 02:08:05 PM
Quote from: mrsman on March 14, 2022, 08:07:54 PM
Agreed. A freeway obviously goes somewhere. I can't think of an example where a freeway, even after reaching its destination city, could not be named for some place that it has yet to reach. That may not be a city, per se, but it can be a neighborhood or a landmark, or yes, the control cities of connecting routes if the freeway ends at an interchange. Even a cross-street may be acceptable as a control in limited circumstances.
Kinda like this? (https://goo.gl/maps/7u3XYvWRrLkR3zis8)
That's perfect. I-37 south leads you to Corpus Christi, and once in Corpus Christi, it leads you to the Bayfront. As the interstate ends, the roadway continues as a surface street and then ends at the Bayfront. Definitely serves the purpose of guiding traffic to the water-side.