Are we the only nation in the world with Business, Bypass, Alternate, Truck, etc....?
Quote from: roadman65 on June 21, 2021, 10:44:50 AM
Are we the only nation in the world with Business, Bypass, Alternate, Truck, etc....?
I have seen "Truck" routes in BC. But they also have this habit of when a highway is replaced by a new route, the old route keeps the same number, then gets an A added (ex. 99A, 1A, 7A), and in some cases there are also B and C routes (97A, 97B, and 97C).
And in the UK, there is the M6 Toll, which an entire different route from the M6.
Australia's old National Route system included bannered alternate routes. The National Routes have largely been phased out these days as part of the transition to alphanumeric numbering, but some states still use them.
Victoria still has at least one signed alternate route of Route 1, following Princes Hwy in the eastern suburbs of Melbourne parallel to the newer M1 motorway:
https://goo.gl/maps/G9EujggENdQg6zQ6A
https://goo.gl/maps/K39PAX9gxtEV3qpDA
Western Australia, which is the last holdout resisting converting to alphanumeric, also includes an alternate to National Route 94:
https://goo.gl/maps/c6HBdJdciPW84VePA
Victoria's state highway system also had some signed alternate routes that disappeared with the alphanumeric transition.
Western Australia's state highway system still includes at least one signed alternate route, although it is signed with National Route rather than state route shields for some reason, e.g.:
https://goo.gl/maps/TbUyp9KYrUgx3TAz7
Mexico has an entire system of [number]D.
British Columbia has at least 1 business-bypass set-up, in Chase:
https://goo.gl/maps/jbMfSbd1K4CUKy8k9
If we're counting suffixed routes (like what I see in this thread already), China had some of them on their national expressway system before a mass renumbering to eliminate duplicate auxiliary routes back in (I think) 2018. An example is G15W (now G1522), through Suzhou, while the mainline G15 (or maybe it was G15E before the renumbering, I forgot) through Shanghai. Between those two routes, there was also a G15W2 (now G1521), passing in a small rural area between Suzhou and Shanghai.
Taiwan.
The M6 Toll in England seems to fit the category even if the signs aren't "bannered" in the US sense (the word "Toll" is signed as part of the route number). It's essentially a bypass of an urban part of the M6 in Birmingham.
Italy uses a nice mess of suffixes. I've seen routes with three suffixes, like SS 106 bis dir A in Catanzaro, Calabria. France used to attach a letter to branch national routes, but they dropped that system in the 1st purge in 1973.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 27, 2021, 08:50:58 AM
The M6 Toll in England seems to fit the category even if the signs aren't "bannered" in the US sense (the word "Toll" is signed as part of the route number). It's essentially a bypass of an urban part of the M6 in Birmingham.
That sounds similar to how MUTCD compliant signage (https://nysroads.com/photos.php?route=i490&state=NY&file=102_1785.JPG) works, so I'm not sure I'd count that as bannered.
Quote from: vdeane on June 27, 2021, 07:17:55 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 27, 2021, 08:50:58 AM
The M6 Toll in England seems to fit the category even if the signs aren't "bannered" in the US sense (the word "Toll" is signed as part of the route number). It's essentially a bypass of an urban part of the M6 in Birmingham.
That sounds similar to how MUTCD compliant signage (https://nysroads.com/photos.php?route=i490&state=NY&file=102_1785.JPG) works, so I'm not sure I'd count that as bannered.
No, because M6 Toll is
a separate road from M6 (https://www.google.com/maps/@52.5945407,-1.9173678,11.5z).
Analogy: if FL 417 was designated "I-4 Toll" while I-4 remained in use through downtown Orlando.
Quote from: GenExpwy on June 28, 2021, 05:06:19 AM
Quote from: vdeane on June 27, 2021, 07:17:55 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 27, 2021, 08:50:58 AM
The M6 Toll in England seems to fit the category even if the signs aren't "bannered" in the US sense (the word "Toll" is signed as part of the route number). It's essentially a bypass of an urban part of the M6 in Birmingham.
That sounds similar to how MUTCD compliant signage (https://nysroads.com/photos.php?route=i490&state=NY&file=102_1785.JPG) works, so I'm not sure I'd count that as bannered.
No, because M6 Toll is a separate road from M6 (https://www.google.com/maps/@52.5945407,-1.9173678,11.5z).
Analogy: if FL 417 was designated "I-4 Toll" while I-4 remained in use through downtown Orlando.
On the other hand, suppose I-4 through Orlando were a US Route (let's just say "US-X" for convenience because if I use a number, someone will complain) and they signed FL-417 as "US-X Bypass." We'd say that's a bannered route. I don't see any real difference, other than utter pedantry, if they called it "US-X Toll" instead.
Vietnam has them. The QL1A is the main north-south more or less coastal highway and is largely free, and largely expressway. The CT01 is a bannered version of it, I think. It's a tolled freeway that is currently discontiguous but will eventually parallel the QL1A. I've also seen the QL1C, a spur off the main road into the city of Nha Trang, and a QL1 that acts kinda like a business loop of the QL1A.
Until the downloads in the 1990s, Sault Ste Marie, Ontario had a bannered "Bridge" highway 17B which connected the north and east legs of mainline Highway 17B and the International Bridge.
Quote from: jaehak on June 28, 2021, 01:51:18 PMVietnam has them. The QL1A is the main north-south more or less coastal highway and is largely free, and largely expressway. The CT01 is a bannered version of it, I think. It's a tolled freeway that is currently discontiguous but will eventually parallel the QL1A.
I don't think it's a bannered version of it. That's like saying that I-41 is a bannered version of US41. Or that countries like Poland and Ireland and some states of Australia where prefixes refer to importance/standard/legal rules and the number stays the same are bannered routes - ie that the [M6] in Ireland is bannered [N6]; [A2] and [S2] in Poland are bannered [2]; [M1] and [B1] in South Australia are bannered [A1].
----
Arguably the Ax(M) roads of the UK are bannered roads. But like "M6 Toll" they are more a bespoke formatted road number, rather than a banner. Italy is, AFAICS, the only European country to have embraced the banner rather than lettered suffixes or using similar numbers for related routes. You get the occasional 'bis' in France, but that's about it other than the examples already given.
I would argue that bannering (in some form) is actually more prevalent in Europe than this discussion would suggest.
* In Spain, letter suffixes are often used for bypassed segments of highway that function as business routes, e.g. the N-340a in the urbanizaciones east of Málaga (bypassed by the N-340, itself largely replaced by the A-7 for through traffic). Near Benidorm, the N-332a has been bypassed by the present N-332, which is a vÃa rápida and by design, if not classification, a semi-motorway (two-lane road with full control of access).
* In Germany, the relocation of the B6 through Lower Saxony and Saxony-Anhalt was referred to as B6n (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesstra%C3%9Fe_6n) ("B6 neu" or "new B6") until it was converted from a gelbe Autobahn to the A36. The n suffix appears reasonably frequently in tender advertisements for relocation projects, though I don't recall offhand whether it is explicitly signed (possibly as cartouche plus neu; I don't think I've seen n in the cartouche itself).
Heck. I've even driven a road suffixed b, i.e. a road that was bypassed, then both roads were bypassed again! (N-330b in Candanchu near the French border, which was the original route of N-330; in the 90s a bypass was built that became N-330 and the old road N-330a, then both roads were bypassed in 2003 by the Somport Tunnel, the Spanish section of which is now part of N-330 with the old roads now being N-330a and N-330b respectively)
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on July 27, 2021, 05:14:36 PMHeck. I've even driven a road suffixed b, i.e. a road that was bypassed, then both roads were bypassed again! (N-330b in Candanchu near the French border, which was the original route of N-330; in the 90s a bypass was built that became N-330 and the old road N-330a, then both roads were bypassed in 2003 by the Somport Tunnel, the Spanish section of which is now part of N-330 with the old roads now being N-330a and N-330b respectively)
Was browsing this in Google Maps after discovering this thread (since a friend of mine from the Philippines recently did a cross-country trip from LA to Florida and I started to wonder what he might have thought about the plethora of bannered routes along the way)...
I did see N-330A and N-330 on there but no N-330B. Has that been decommissioned?
Some Japanese expressways have suffixes like the E5A and E1A. For example, in between Fuji and Nagoya, E1 follows the coast while E1A serves as a kind of bypass through the mountains.
To me, a suffix and a banner are not the same thing.
Quote from: kphoger on January 17, 2025, 09:33:57 AMTo me, a suffix and a banner are not the same thing.
They're not physically the same, but they often have the same meaning. Some states will stick an ALT banner above the route signs, and others will add a letter after the number. TM treats them as equivalent. I prefer the suffix because it's shorter and easier to say and write.
I also grew up in Massachusetts, which uses suffixes, but MA, NH, VT, and RI are different because they have no US route alternates. Instead, they create state route alternates for US routes, so those don't mean quite the same thing.
Except, to me, you could rename I-235 here in Wichita as I-35 Bypass or I-35A, and functionally it wouldn't make any difference. It's not like 235 is a unique number in the system: it basically just means 'bypass'.
So, basically, if a letter suffix is equivalent to a bannered route, then practically the whole system of 3di should be equivalent to bannered routes too.
Quote from: kphoger on January 17, 2025, 02:42:52 PMExcept, to me, you could rename I-235 here in Wichita as I-35 Bypass or I-35A, and functionally it wouldn't make any difference. It's not like 235 is a unique number in the system: it basically just means 'bypass'.
So, basically, if a letter suffix is equivalent to a bannered route, then practically the whole system of 3di should be equivalent to bannered routes too.
Well, one difference is that alternate routes are often old alignments of the same road, and are therefore bypassed, not bypasses. Another difference is that you can reuse the same alternate route number in the same state, e.g., the multiple US-1As in Maine, but each 3di must be unique within the state.
Arizona is an example of a state that numbers some of its state highways like interstates too--look at all the x87 routes--but I don't think most states do that because they have so many state routes already. People wouldn't automatically think of route 234 as an alternate for route 34 if there were lots of other numbers in that range that weren't alternates.
I know British Columbia has had business routes at one point, if they don't still do.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 28, 2021, 08:28:46 AMQuote from: GenExpwy on June 28, 2021, 05:06:19 AMQuote from: vdeane on June 27, 2021, 07:17:55 PMQuote from: 1995hoo on June 27, 2021, 08:50:58 AMThe M6 Toll in England seems to fit the category even if the signs aren't "bannered" in the US sense (the word "Toll" is signed as part of the route number). It's essentially a bypass of an urban part of the M6 in Birmingham.
That sounds similar to how MUTCD compliant signage (https://nysroads.com/photos.php?route=i490&state=NY&file=102_1785.JPG) works, so I'm not sure I'd count that as bannered.
No, because M6 Toll is a separate road from M6 (https://www.google.com/maps/@52.5945407,-1.9173678,11.5z).
Analogy: if FL 417 was designated "I-4 Toll" while I-4 remained in use through downtown Orlando.
On the other hand, suppose I-4 through Orlando were a US Route (let's just say "US-X" for convenience because if I use a number, someone will complain) and they signed FL-417 as "US-X Bypass." We'd say that's a bannered route. I don't see any real difference, other than utter pedantry, if they called it "US-X Toll" instead.
There previously was a requirement that US highways that were originally free must have a toll-free alternative, I.e. US-98 Toll on the Pensacola Bay Bridge and US-98 regular following what is now FL-87.
Quote from: LilianaUwU on January 17, 2025, 10:27:02 PMI know British Columbia has had business routes at one point, if they don't still do.
They certainly have plenty of suffixed roads. BC97 I think has A, B, C, and D. But I don't recall seeing any actual banners anywhere.
Quote from: pderocco on January 17, 2025, 04:12:26 PMAnother difference is that you can reuse the same alternate route number in the same state, e.g., the multiple US-1As in Maine, but each 3di must be unique within the state.
TIL...
For four decades until 1996, Kansas had two highways numbered 150:
1. One that connected to US-50 in Chase and Marion Counties. This K-150 still exists.
2. A continuation in Johnson County of MO-150, which itself is still connected to US-50 in Missouri. This K-150 no longer exists because the towns around it had grown enough that it had nothing left outside municipal boundaries (plus US-169 was relocated), so now the western endpoint of MO-150 is just a city street in Kansas.
Quote from: pderocco on January 17, 2025, 02:03:48 PMQuote from: kphoger on January 17, 2025, 09:33:57 AMTo me, a suffix and a banner are not the same thing.
They're not physically the same, but they often have the same meaning.
But not always. In Oklahoma, a suffix normally indicates a spur route, and it just ascends through the alphabet A-B-C-D-etc. So if you are expecting 63A to be an alternate of 63 and meet back up with it again, you are probably going to be astonished. Twice.
So the reason I remembered BC has bannered routes is because of this assembly (https://www.google.com/maps/@50.8229691,-119.6743575,3a,16.1y,263.05h,86.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s7BWZxuJkyE1oG73fhsqwdw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fcb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile%26w%3D900%26h%3D600%26pitch%3D3.0117026327867507%26panoid%3D7BWZxuJkyE1oG73fhsqwdw%26yaw%3D263.04596425060873!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu&g_ep=EgoyMDI1MDExNS4wIKXMDSoASAFQAw%3D%3D) on TCH 1 WB, which is the only sign for an old alignment of TCH 1 in Chase.
Also, TCH 1 and PE 2 around Charlottetown are signed as "BY-PASS", though the associated old alignments are no longer signed as business routes:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53118430162_93e403ed51_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oVTQEN)PE 1/PE 2 EB, Charlottetown Bypass - 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2oVTQEN) by Liliana Vess (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lilianauwu/), on Flickr
India appears to have a NH 10 "bye pass". No idea if or how it's signed.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220620210828if_/http://sikkim-roadsandbridges.gov.in/images/Roadnetwork/SIKKIM-FINAL-MORTH-Model-1.pdf (https://web.archive.org/web/20220620210828if_/http://sikkim-roadsandbridges.gov.in/images/Roadnetwork/SIKKIM-FINAL-MORTH-Model-1.pdf)
Quote from: NE2 on January 18, 2025, 03:56:24 PMIndia appears to have a NH 10 "bye pass". No idea if or how it's signed.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220620210828if_/http://sikkim-roadsandbridges.gov.in/images/Roadnetwork/SIKKIM-FINAL-MORTH-Model-1.pdf (https://web.archive.org/web/20220620210828if_/http://sikkim-roadsandbridges.gov.in/images/Roadnetwork/SIKKIM-FINAL-MORTH-Model-1.pdf)
Looks like this from the West Bengal side: https://maps.app.goo.gl/QbYUzboSZJh4xmoz8
The bypass is signed as NH 10 mainline.
I was unaware that New Hampshire state route 10 extended to India. :bigass:
Quote from: vdeane on January 18, 2025, 10:38:47 PMI was unaware that New Hampshire state route 10 extended to India. :bigass:
Not funny.
Quote from: vdeane on January 18, 2025, 10:38:47 PMI was unaware that New Hampshire state route 10 extended to India. :bigass:
There's a lot of overlap between India's two letter state codes and the US'. Including the National Highways (NH) and National Expressways (NE).
Overall, India did take a lot of cues from the US/Interstate systems when they renumbered the entire NH system back in 2011 though. I do find India's fondness of suffixed 3dNH (NH 765D, 765DG, and 930P in Telangana, for example) numbering a bit annoying, however.
Quote from: NE2 on January 18, 2025, 10:43:21 PMQuote from: vdeane on January 18, 2025, 10:38:47 PMI was unaware that New Hampshire state route 10 extended to India. :bigass:
Not funny.
All's funny now.
Quote from: NE2 on January 18, 2025, 10:43:21 PMQuote from: vdeane on January 18, 2025, 10:38:47 PMI was unaware that New Hampshire state route 10 extended to India. :bigass:
Not funny.
Whatever you say, National Expressway 2.
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 18, 2025, 10:36:36 AMQuote from: pderocco on January 17, 2025, 02:03:48 PMQuote from: kphoger on January 17, 2025, 09:33:57 AMTo me, a suffix and a banner are not the same thing.
They're not physically the same, but they often have the same meaning.
But not always. In Oklahoma, a suffix normally indicates a spur route, and it just ascends through the alphabet A-B-C-D-etc. So if you are expecting 63A to be an alternate of 63 and meet back up with it again, you are probably going to be astonished. Twice.
Didn't Florida do the same thing as well with their suffixed routes?
Quote from: pderocco on January 17, 2025, 04:12:26 PMArizona is an example of a state that numbers some of its state highways like interstates too--look at all the x87 routes--but I don't think most states do that because they have so many state routes already. People wouldn't automatically think of route 234 as an alternate for route 34 if there were lots of other numbers in that range that weren't alternates
I believe Pennsylvania does that too :)
Quote from: pderocco on January 17, 2025, 02:03:48 PMI also grew up in Massachusetts, which uses suffixes, but MA, NH, VT, and RI are different because they have no US route alternates. Instead, they create state route alternates for US routes, so those don't mean quite the same thing.
BYP US 1 (Portsmouth/Kittery), BUS US 4 (Rutland), and ALT US 5 (St Johnsbury) all say hi.
Quote from: froggie on April 26, 2025, 08:15:42 AMQuote from: pderocco on January 17, 2025, 02:03:48 PMI also grew up in Massachusetts, which uses suffixes, but MA, NH, VT, and RI are different because they have no US route alternates. Instead, they create state route alternates for US routes, so those don't mean quite the same thing.
BYP US 1 (Portsmouth/Kittery), BUS US 4 (Rutland), and ALT US 5 (St Johnsbury) all say hi.
There's also BUS US 1 (Warwick), ALT US 6 (Johnston), BUS US 3 (Laconia), ALT US 5 (Derby Line), and ALT US 7 (Burlington). Not to mention the truck routes. That's correct about MA, though.
Quote from: vdeane on April 26, 2025, 04:17:30 PMQuote from: froggie on April 26, 2025, 08:15:42 AMQuote from: pderocco on January 17, 2025, 02:03:48 PMI also grew up in Massachusetts, which uses suffixes, but MA, NH, VT, and RI are different because they have no US route alternates. Instead, they create state route alternates for US routes, so those don't mean quite the same thing.
BYP US 1 (Portsmouth/Kittery), BUS US 4 (Rutland), and ALT US 5 (St Johnsbury) all say hi.
There's also BUS US 1 (Warwick), ALT US 6 (Johnston), BUS US 3 (Laconia), ALT US 5 (Derby Line), and ALT US 7 (Burlington). Not to mention the truck routes. That's correct about MA, though.
I was specifically referring to reliably signed routes, of which the other two Vermont examples you cite are not.