Anyone else notice this?
For example, I-24 northwest from Nashville used to be St. Louis, but now it's Clarksville.
Interstate control cities have been using smaller or lesser known cities, or sometimes cities that aren't right on that route. As an example of using cities that aren't right on the route, I-70 didn't always have Dayton as a control city, instead skipping from Indianapolis to Columbus.
I think loop Interstates have changed somewhat too. I remember when the signs for I-275 used to say either "Cincinnati Bypass" or no control city at all, but now they list the control city of the next Interstate that I-275 intersects.
I-485 used to list Columbia and Statesville, IIRC, but now they only list Huntersville and Pineville (suburbs on I-485)
Quote from: bandit957 on June 26, 2021, 02:24:26 PM
For example, I-24 northwest from Nashville used to be St. Louis, but now it's Clarksville.
This sounds more like a result of changing demographics. Clarksville has grown significantly since the Interstate Highway System was born. St. Louis has not.
Clarksville should not be a control city.
Quote from: 1 on June 26, 2021, 02:43:04 PM
Quote from: bandit957 on June 26, 2021, 02:24:26 PM
For example, I-24 northwest from Nashville used to be St. Louis, but now it's Clarksville.
This sounds more like a result of changing demographics. Clarksville has grown significantly since the Interstate Highway System was born. St. Louis has not.
Clarksville has a population of 150,000. The St. Louis metro area has a population of 3 million. I think that speaks for itself.
Signing St. Louis instead of Clarksville is like signing Montreal instead of Manchester on I-93 in Boston.
Quote from: 1 on June 26, 2021, 02:48:31 PM
Signing St. Louis instead of Clarksville is like signing Montreal instead of Manchester on I-93 in Boston.
I don't think that's an apples-to-apples comparison for multiple reasons. Different regions, different traffic patterns served, different countries.
In the Twin Cities, MnDOT has been working to switch the I-94 eastbound control city to Eau Claire rather than Madison. Eau Claire is a regional center with an important branch of the state university system. I can see both sides of this argument. The smaller regional center is more likely to be a destination for shorter regional trips from a major city (like college students), but Interstates are designed for long-haul trips just as much as the short regional ones.
Generally, I don't like small cities as the primary control, with an exception that they're a college town for a large university (Columbia, MO, Champaign, IL, Lafayette, IN, State College, PA, etc), or is well known for some tourist attractions, like Wisconsin Dells. Actually, I prefer Champaign to be used on SB I-57 in the Chicago area instead of Memphis.
Quote from: bandit957 on June 26, 2021, 02:24:26 PM
I think loop Interstates have changed somewhat too. I remember when the signs for I-275 used to say either "Cincinnati Bypass" or no control city at all, but now they list the control city of the next Interstate that I-275 intersects.
The interchange with I-75 in OH have both control routes and control cities, interchange with I-74 only uses control cities, and the interchange with I-71 only uses control routes. South of OH 32, I see "Kentucky" used as a control, and in KY, "Airport" is used. The whole beltway is plain inconsistent with control cities.
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 26, 2021, 03:35:13 PM
The interchange with I-75 in OH have both control routes and control cities, interchange with I-74 only uses control cities, and the interchange with I-71 only uses control routes. South of OH 32, I see "Kentucky" used as a control, and in KY, "Airport" is used. The whole beltway is plain inconsistent with control cities.
On I-471, I-275 east uses Columbus, but I remember when it didn't have a control city at all.
Quote from: 1 on June 26, 2021, 02:48:31 PM
Signing St. Louis instead of Clarksville is like signing Montreal instead of Manchester on I-93 in Boston.
Not on I-93 but singing Montreal on I-89 might make sense, at least at the I-93 interchange.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 02:44:42 PM
Clarksville should not be a control city.
And why not? It's a city of 130,000 people that is actually along the route.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 04:27:50 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 02:44:42 PM
Clarksville should not be a control city.
And why not? It's a city of 130,000 people that is actually along the route.
The vast majority of traffic on I-24 West out of Nashville is bound to St. Louis and points west.
St. Louis should be the main control city, with Clarksville as a secondary. Then west of there, switch to St. Louis / Paducah.
Kentucky skips Clarksville in favor of Nashville.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:44:50 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 04:27:50 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 02:44:42 PM
Clarksville should not be a control city.
And why not? It's a city of 130,000 people that is actually along the route.
The vast majority of traffic on I-24 West out of Chattanooga is bound to St. Louis and points west.
Says who?
*meant Nashville.
For any long distance trips (how control cities should be fitted for) following I-24 to I-57 to I-64 is the most direct trajectory. Following any other routes beyond that on the interstate system end up looping back around to the point it would've been more direct to follow other routes out of Nashville. Just look at a map.
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
*meant Nashville.
Clarksville is on the other side of Nashville...
Quote from: Rothman on June 26, 2021, 05:00:48 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
*meant Nashville.
Clarksville is on the other side of Nashville...
Clarksville, TN is northwest of Nashville, on the path between Nashville and St. Louis.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I-65 exists for Chicago-Nashville travel.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I doubt anyone is going to Chicago going that far west when you can take I-65.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 07:16:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I doubt anyone is going to Chicago going that far west when you can take I-65.
I'm talking about from Paducah.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 07:17:29 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 07:16:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I doubt anyone is going to Chicago going that far west when you can take I-65.
I'm talking about from Paducah.
Paducah is 5 1/2 hours from Chicago I don't think there are too many people making the trip from Paducah to Chicago.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 07:17:29 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 07:16:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I doubt anyone is going to Chicago going that far west when you can take I-65.
I'm talking about from Paducah.
Paducah is a town of 25,000. It's not a major traffic generator. Besides, the control city from that point west is St. Louis. That's not the area in question - Nashville is.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 07:22:03 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 07:17:29 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 07:16:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I doubt anyone is going to Chicago going that far west when you can take I-65.
I'm talking about from Paducah.
Paducah is a town of 25,000. It's not a major traffic generator. Besides, the control city from that point west is St. Louis. That's not the area in question - Nashville is.
You asked "Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?"
I live closer to Chicago than Paducah is to Chicago and my city certainly has no connection to Chicago.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 07:37:15 PM
I live closer to Chicago than Paducah is to Chicago and my city certainly has no connection to Chicago.
Is Paducah more connected to St. Louis than Chicago?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 08:05:30 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 07:37:15 PM
I live closer to Chicago than Paducah is to Chicago and my city certainly has no connection to Chicago.
Is Paducah more connected to St. Louis than Chicago?
Paducah is connected with itself it's just a small city in Western Kentucky pretty much.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 08:05:30 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 07:37:15 PM
I live closer to Chicago than Paducah is to Chicago and my city certainly has no connection to Chicago.
Is Paducah more connected to St. Louis than Chicago?
Never been to Paducah, but I can't imagine that St. Louis or Chicago are more prominent than Louisville.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 05:06:06 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 26, 2021, 05:00:48 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
*meant Nashville.
Clarksville is on the other side of Nashville...
Clarksville, TN is northwest of Nashville, on the path between Nashville and St. Louis.
Right, but you were talking about from Chattanooga.
Someone once told me that most people in Paducah root for the St. Louis Cardinals.
Quote from: Rothman on June 26, 2021, 09:23:15 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 05:06:06 PM
Quote from: Rothman on June 26, 2021, 05:00:48 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
*meant Nashville.
Clarksville is on the other side of Nashville...
Clarksville, TN is northwest of Nashville, on the path between Nashville and St. Louis.
Right, but you were talking about from Chattanooga.
I had meant Nashville from the beginning, I wrote Chattanooga for some reason but corrected it after you pointed it out initially.
I was in Paducah last December for a few days. That was the trip that I crossed the Ohio River on the Brookport Bridge. It seems to have more in common with St. Louis or Memphis.
As far as the city goes it has a nice downtown but isn't a real densely populated city. It's got a small town feel to it kind of a hillbilly type culture. I stayed in Calvert City a little east of Paducah.
Quote from: bandit957 on June 26, 2021, 09:24:17 PM
Someone once told me that most people in Paducah root for the St. Louis Cardinals.
Seems to be split between the Cards and Cubs, in my experience.
Even if Tennessee did sign St. Louis over Clarksville, it St. Louis gets overlooked in favor of Paducah once you cross the state line. More than 20 years ago, there was one straggler "St Louis" sign at an entrance ramp to westbound I-24 in Christian County, but everything else showed the route going to Paducah.
Similarly, Kentucky overlooks Clarksville for Nashville.
Clarksville is probably prominent for being the nearest bigger city to Ft. Campbell, and is home to a Tennessee state university (Austin Peay).
Paducah seemed to be more Cardinals country than anything to me regarding baseball following.
What other sports team do Paducah residents root for? Any Memphis Grizzlies fans?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 04:07:14 PM
What other sports team do Paducah residents root for? Any Memphis Grizzlies fans?
For football probably either the Colts or Titans.
I have no idea about the NBA since I do not follow the sport at all.
NHL if they do have a following probably Blues or Predators.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 04:07:14 PM
What other sports team do Paducah residents root for? Any Memphis Grizzlies fans?
University of Kentucky basketball. And there isn't a close second.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 07:16:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I doubt anyone is going to Chicago going that far west when you can take I-65.
It's not even a "second choice." US-41 will get you to Chicago faster than going that far west.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 27, 2021, 06:04:38 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 07:16:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I doubt anyone is going to Chicago going that far west when you can take I-65.
It's not even a "second choice." US-41 will get you to Chicago faster than going that far west.
Are you talking about from Paducah or Clarksville? If Paducah then I-24 to I-57 would be a good way since I-24 actually runs more N-S than E-W in that area and alligns you into I-57 NB. If Clarksville than I agree you might save a few minutes but you will save about 70 miles too by taking US-41. I guess it's worth pointing out too that north of Terre Haute you'd want to take IN-63 instead of US-41 as IN-63 is the faster way and connects you back to US-41.
^ Looking now, Clarksville to Chicago looks like a toss up. Both take around the same time, though US-41 is significantly shorter in mileage. I suppose it's just a preference for whether you prefer to stick to 70 mph interstate highways the whole way, or mostly 60 mph US-41 in Indiana. Both are 4 lane though.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 27, 2021, 06:58:38 PM
^ Looking now, Clarksville to Chicago looks like a toss up. Both take around the same time, though US-41 is significantly shorter in mileage. I suppose it's just a preference for whether you prefer to stick to 70 mph interstate highways the whole way, or mostly 60 mph US-41 in Indiana. Both are 4 lane though.
I-65 in Indiana is not the best drive out there, with only 2 lane per direction and all that truck traffic (one person on this forum disagrees though :)), so for some people, US 41 may be preferable because of this reason.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 27, 2021, 06:00:00 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 04:07:14 PM
What other sports team do Paducah residents root for? Any Memphis Grizzlies fans?
University of Kentucky basketball. And there isn't a close second.
Professional sports.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 27, 2021, 06:58:38 PM
^ Looking now, Clarksville to Chicago looks like a toss up. Both take around the same time, though US-41 is significantly shorter in mileage. I suppose it's just a preference for whether you prefer to stick to 70 mph interstate highways the whole way, or mostly 60 mph US-41 in Indiana. Both are 4 lane though.
I have been on both multiple times. US-41 (including IN-63) from Clarksville to Chicago is going to be quicker 9 times out of 10.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 27, 2021, 08:05:28 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 27, 2021, 06:58:38 PM
^ Looking now, Clarksville to Chicago looks like a toss up. Both take around the same time, though US-41 is significantly shorter in mileage. I suppose it's just a preference for whether you prefer to stick to 70 mph interstate highways the whole way, or mostly 60 mph US-41 in Indiana. Both are 4 lane though.
I have been on both multiple times. US-41 (including IN-63) from Clarksville to Chicago is going to be quicker 9 times out of 10.
Right. It's only about a 5-6 minute difference to save 70 miles. And you can make that time up too.
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 07:00:00 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 27, 2021, 06:58:38 PM
^ Looking now, Clarksville to Chicago looks like a toss up. Both take around the same time, though US-41 is significantly shorter in mileage. I suppose it's just a preference for whether you prefer to stick to 70 mph interstate highways the whole way, or mostly 60 mph US-41 in Indiana. Both are 4 lane though.
I-65 in Indiana is not the best drive out there, with only 2 lane per direction and all that truck traffic (one person on this forum disagrees though :)), so for some people, US 41 may be preferable because of this reason.
Good news - Clarksville to Chicago does not include any part of I-65... it's I-57... though that could be a toss up as well.
For that distance, unless it was a peak weekend, me personally I'd probably stick with I-57, though I can certainly understand why someone would chose otherwise.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 02:44:42 PM
Clarksville should not be a control city.
Clarksville has a major military base on top of the pop being over 100k. Clarksville as a secondary control city is perfectly fine.
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 27, 2021, 08:19:10 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 02:44:42 PM
Clarksville should not be a control city.
Clarksville has a major military base on top of the pop being over 100k. Clarksville as a secondary control city is perfectly fine.
Secondary - I agree. But I feel St. Louis should also be present as a primary one.
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 26, 2021, 07:14:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I-65 exists for Chicago-Nashville travel.
Actually, when I got to visit my brother outside of Nashville, I do use I-57 to I-24 a lot. It's a much quicker route than I-65 via Indy and Louisville.
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 27, 2021, 08:29:15 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 26, 2021, 07:14:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I-65 exists for Chicago-Nashville travel.
Actually, when I got to visit my brother outside of Nashville, I do use I-57 to I-24 a lot. It's a much quicker route than I-65 via Indy and Louisville.
About 30 miles longer and 30 minutes longer... but I suppose if you consider avoiding Indianapolis, Louisville, and all of I-65's traffic, it could work out.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 27, 2021, 06:04:38 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 07:16:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I doubt anyone is going to Chicago going that far west when you can take I-65.
It's not even a "second choice." US-41 will get you to Chicago faster than going that far west.
Umm. No it is not. Especially in Indiana. Going through Evansville and Terre Haute does slow 41 traffic a lot. That's another route I have taken often. 57 and 24 is still faster.
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 27, 2021, 08:33:21 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 27, 2021, 06:04:38 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 26, 2021, 07:16:14 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I doubt anyone is going to Chicago going that far west when you can take I-65.
It's not even a "second choice." US-41 will get you to Chicago faster than going that far west.
Umm. No it is not. Especially in Indiana. Going through Evansville and Terre Haute does slow 41 traffic a lot. That's another route I have taken often. 57 and 24 is still faster.
Not to mention Indiana's reluctance at changing the law to permit a higher speed limit than 60 mph for the nearly 300 mile segment of non-limited-access highway that is US-41. If the speed limit was 65 mph or even 70 mph for a lot of the distance (which it could easily be)... I could see it being more attractive.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Clarksville,+TN/Chicago,+IL/@39.1521586,-89.7884528,7z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8864ce402ffea7e5:0xab41b10fe905271e!2m2!1d-87.3594528!2d36.5297706!1m5!1m1!1s0x880e2c3cd0f4cbed:0xafe0a6ad09c0c000!2m2!1d-87.6297982!2d41.8781136!3e0
The two routes are about the same time wise according to google.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 08:48:16 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Clarksville,+TN/Chicago,+IL/@39.1521586,-89.7884528,7z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8864ce402ffea7e5:0xab41b10fe905271e!2m2!1d-87.3594528!2d36.5297706!1m5!1m1!1s0x880e2c3cd0f4cbed:0xafe0a6ad09c0c000!2m2!1d-87.6297982!2d41.8781136!3e0
The two routes are about the same time wise according to google.
Add in dozens of red lights, going through Evansville, Henderson, Terre Haute, small towns, and 300 miles of 60 mph in Indiana vs. a limited access 70 mph highway the whole way with no interruptions.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 27, 2021, 09:01:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 08:48:16 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Clarksville,+TN/Chicago,+IL/@39.1521586,-89.7884528,7z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8864ce402ffea7e5:0xab41b10fe905271e!2m2!1d-87.3594528!2d36.5297706!1m5!1m1!1s0x880e2c3cd0f4cbed:0xafe0a6ad09c0c000!2m2!1d-87.6297982!2d41.8781136!3e0
The two routes are about the same time wise according to google.
Add in dozens of red lights, going through Evansville, Henderson, Terre Haute, small towns, and 300 miles of 60 mph in Indiana vs. a limited access 70 mph highway the whole way with no interruptions.
Shouldn't google theoretically factor that in?
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 05:48:07 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 04:07:14 PM
What other sports team do Paducah residents root for? Any Memphis Grizzlies fans?
For football probably either the Colts or Titans.
I have no idea about the NBA since I do not follow the sport at all.
NHL if they do have a following probably Blues or Predators.
Probably some Grizzlies fans, since one of their young stars played college ball at nearby Murray State University.
NFL-wise, likely the Titans. The Titans have actually eaten into some of the Bengals' fan base in Kentucky, although for me it's hard to see the Titans as anything other than recycled Houston Oilers, and remembering how much Bengals fans disliked Jerry Glanville back in the late 80s.
Hockey doesn't really have a big following anywhere in the Commonwealth of Kentucky.
But the comment about UK basketball -- and secondarily, UK football -- is spot-on. Paducah and the Purchase area is as solidly Big Blue territory as the eastern mountains are.
My impression of that region, from knowing a few people down that way, is that Nashville is the dominant "big city" over St. Louis or Memphis.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 27, 2021, 09:01:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 08:48:16 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Clarksville,+TN/Chicago,+IL/@39.1521586,-89.7884528,7z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8864ce402ffea7e5:0xab41b10fe905271e!2m2!1d-87.3594528!2d36.5297706!1m5!1m1!1s0x880e2c3cd0f4cbed:0xafe0a6ad09c0c000!2m2!1d-87.6297982!2d41.8781136!3e0
The two routes are about the same time wise according to google.
Add in dozens of red lights, going through Evansville, Henderson, Terre Haute, small towns, and 300 miles of 60 mph in Indiana vs. a limited access 70 mph highway the whole way with no interruptions.
But little traffic on US-41 / IN-63, especially north of Terre Haute, versus tons of trucks on I-57. Just a matter of preference.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 27, 2021, 10:09:10 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 27, 2021, 09:01:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 08:48:16 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Clarksville,+TN/Chicago,+IL/@39.1521586,-89.7884528,7z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8864ce402ffea7e5:0xab41b10fe905271e!2m2!1d-87.3594528!2d36.5297706!1m5!1m1!1s0x880e2c3cd0f4cbed:0xafe0a6ad09c0c000!2m2!1d-87.6297982!2d41.8781136!3e0
The two routes are about the same time wise according to google.
Add in dozens of red lights, going through Evansville, Henderson, Terre Haute, small towns, and 300 miles of 60 mph in Indiana vs. a limited access 70 mph highway the whole way with no interruptions.
But little traffic on US-41 / IN-63, especially north of Terre Haute, versus tons of trucks on I-57. Just a matter of preference.
US 41 is also less miles if you car about that.
Wow, this thread really went all in on that one debate.
As for the topic in general, I really think that secondary control cities should be used more often. That way, the best of both worlds can be included. Keep a large metropolitan area in focus, but depending on the location, just include that second city, especially if it's relevant for a particular location.
I guess when it comes to control cities, I don't have much opinion, considering I'm treated to such controls as "Northwest Suburbs", "Southwest Suburbs", and "Wisconsin".
Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 27, 2021, 10:26:48 PM
Wow, this thread really went all in on that one debate.
As for the topic in general, I really think that secondary control cities should be used more often. That way, the best of both worlds can be included. Keep a large metropolitan area in focus, but depending on the location, just include that second city, especially if it's relevant for a particular location.
I guess when it comes to control cities, I don't have much opinion, considering I'm treated to such controls as "Northwest Suburbs", "Southwest Suburbs", and "Wisconsin".
Disagree on secondary control cities. They clutter a sign. Most of the time they're not relevant. Not sure if this is of any consequence, but they also make drivers take longer to read the sign, taking their eyes off the road for longer than necessary.
Quote from: thspfc on June 27, 2021, 10:43:58 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on June 27, 2021, 10:26:48 PM
Wow, this thread really went all in on that one debate.
As for the topic in general, I really think that secondary control cities should be used more often. That way, the best of both worlds can be included. Keep a large metropolitan area in focus, but depending on the location, just include that second city, especially if it's relevant for a particular location.
I guess when it comes to control cities, I don't have much opinion, considering I'm treated to such controls as "Northwest Suburbs", "Southwest Suburbs", and "Wisconsin".
Disagree on secondary control cities. They clutter a sign. Most of the time they're not relevant. Not sure if this is of any consequence, but they also make drivers take longer to read the sign, taking their eyes off the road for longer than necessary.
I know in Illinois, primary cities are signed at major junctions and secondary cities at minor junctions.
I don't know the last time I've seen a secondary control city signed on a BGS in Ohio; the state seems to go primary only, and is pretty good at using large cities for the primary control too.
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 11:35:08 PM
I don't know the last time I've seen a secondary control city signed on a BGS in Ohio; the state seems to go primary only, and is pretty good at using large cities for the primary control too.
I've been all over Ohio and I've never seen one either.
Massachusetts has a mix of cities used, with some signs having secondaries/two cities on a sign.
California tends to do singular control cities in urban areas, and primary + secondary outside of urban areas. However, there are many exceptions:
- Berkeley/Sacramento for I-80 east near the MacArthur Maze
- Hayward/Stockton for 580 between Oakland and Hayward
- Hollywood/Pasadena for 110 north from I-10 to the Four-Level
- Santa Monica/LAX/Long Beach for I-405 south at US 101
- Palmdale/Lancaster for Route 14 north from I-5 to Palmdale
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 27, 2021, 11:37:34 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 27, 2021, 11:35:08 PM
I don't know the last time I've seen a secondary control city signed on a BGS in Ohio; the state seems to go primary only, and is pretty good at using large cities for the primary control too.
I've been all over Ohio and I've never seen one either.
Ohio is probably home to the most extreme example: NYC signed on I-80 at Youngstown.
I can't remember what Ohio uses on I-77 north of the river. I know in West Virginia, Marietta appears after Parkersburg, but can't remember if Cambridge, Akron, or Cleveland gets posted.
I seem to recall Marietta on I-70 going south back in 1990. That struck me odd that Charleston wasn't used being the first city of major importance on a long haul route.
Quote from: roadman65 on June 28, 2021, 10:55:16 AM
I seem to recall Marietta on I-70 going south back in 1990. That struck me odd that Charleston wasn't used being the first city of major importance on a long haul route.
I-70? You mean I-77?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 10:16:02 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 27, 2021, 10:09:10 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 27, 2021, 09:01:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 08:48:16 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Clarksville,+TN/Chicago,+IL/@39.1521586,-89.7884528,7z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8864ce402ffea7e5:0xab41b10fe905271e!2m2!1d-87.3594528!2d36.5297706!1m5!1m1!1s0x880e2c3cd0f4cbed:0xafe0a6ad09c0c000!2m2!1d-87.6297982!2d41.8781136!3e0
The two routes are about the same time wise according to google.
Add in dozens of red lights, going through Evansville, Henderson, Terre Haute, small towns, and 300 miles of 60 mph in Indiana vs. a limited access 70 mph highway the whole way with no interruptions.
But little traffic on US-41 / IN-63, especially north of Terre Haute, versus tons of trucks on I-57. Just a matter of preference.
US 41 is also less miles if you car about that.
Are you saying that's something that we auto do?
Quote from: hbelkins on June 28, 2021, 10:41:23 AM
I can't remember what Ohio uses on I-77 north of the river. I know in West Virginia, Marietta appears after Parkersburg, but can't remember if Cambridge, Akron, or Cleveland gets posted.
I think it's mainly Cleveland for NB 77 in the southern part of the state. Granted I haven't been on a non-multiplexed segment of I-77 in Ohio before, though I think Akron starts popping up in Canton from a couple GSV searches.
I mentioned this before a couple of times, I think Ohio needs to fix control cities on their non-interstate freeways, to at least be only a tier lower than those found on interstates. Like imo US 35 should only use Dayton, Chilicothe and Charleston as controls, and get rid of Xenia, Washington CH, Jackson, Gallipolis, etc, considering that it's part of the main long distance routing between the Midwest and places like the Carolinas and Southern VA.
Quote from: bandit957 on June 26, 2021, 02:24:26 PM
Anyone else notice this?
For example, I-24 northwest from Nashville used to be St. Louis, but now it's Clarksville.
Interstate control cities have been using smaller or lesser known cities, or sometimes cities that aren't right on that route. As an example of using cities that aren't right on the route, I-70 didn't always have Dayton as a control city, instead skipping from Indianapolis to Columbus.
I think loop Interstates have changed somewhat too. I remember when the signs for I-275 used to say either "Cincinnati Bypass" or no control city at all, but now they list the control city of the next Interstate that I-275 intersects.
The control city for I-24 west at Nashville has been Clarksville since at least 1992. That is almost 30 years ago. It makes sense since I-24 doesn't come any near St Louis. Actually the control city for I-25 NB out of Denver used to be Cheyenne now it's Fort Collins which is bigger.
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 28, 2021, 11:07:32 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 10:16:02 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 27, 2021, 10:09:10 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 27, 2021, 09:01:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 27, 2021, 08:48:16 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Clarksville,+TN/Chicago,+IL/@39.1521586,-89.7884528,7z/data=!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x8864ce402ffea7e5:0xab41b10fe905271e!2m2!1d-87.3594528!2d36.5297706!1m5!1m1!1s0x880e2c3cd0f4cbed:0xafe0a6ad09c0c000!2m2!1d-87.6297982!2d41.8781136!3e0
The two routes are about the same time wise according to google.
Add in dozens of red lights, going through Evansville, Henderson, Terre Haute, small towns, and 300 miles of 60 mph in Indiana vs. a limited access 70 mph highway the whole way with no interruptions.
But little traffic on US-41 / IN-63, especially north of Terre Haute, versus tons of trucks on I-57. Just a matter of preference.
US 41 is also less miles if you car about that.
Are you saying that's something that we auto do?
One thing I can tell you that Google does not factor in is if the sign posted is 65, people, at least here in Illinois, will easily do 70-75 if not more.
Also, as a side note, when I have done my trips to Nashville and back, I tend to vary the route depending on if I have time or need to get there quick. I even once tried taking I-55 to US 51 all the way to Cairo and Fulton to TN 22, US 70, TN 46, I-40 and I-840. Not bad except for the bridge over the Ohio River. My preferred leisure route is US 41, IN 63, US 41, I-64, US 231, I-165 Natcher Pkwy, I-65. I have even tried taking 231 from Lafayette to Spencer where I pick up IN 46 to I-69 South. Once I-69 is done to Indy, that may be a better way to get to I-65. But if I am in a hurry, nothing beats 57 to 24 IMO. Oh and Illinois Route 1 takes forever to get to Cave in the Rock but that ferry across the Ohio is quick and cool.
I've blown through Indiana before on US-41 and IN-63 and not had a problem. I did 70-75 most of the way.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 28, 2021, 12:12:26 PM
I've blown through Indiana before on US-41 and IN-63 and not had a problem. I did 70-75 most of the way.
With speed limits out of the picture then, I could probably sustain 80-85 mph on the interstate for long distances, especially if it's not a peak travel period.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 28, 2021, 12:25:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 28, 2021, 12:12:26 PM
I've blown through Indiana before on US-41 and IN-63 and not had a problem. I did 70-75 most of the way.
With speed limits out of the picture then, I could probably sustain 80-85 mph on the interstate for long distances, especially if it's not a peak travel period.
Again, it's just a matter of preference, but I'm not going to generally take a route that gets you there in about the same amount of time just so I can drive faster on an interstate.
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 27, 2021, 08:29:15 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 26, 2021, 07:14:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I-65 exists for Chicago-Nashville travel.
Actually, when I got to visit my brother outside of Nashville, I do use I-57 to I-24 a lot. It's a much quicker route than I-65 via Indy and Louisville.
I prefer using US 41. I do switch up between US 41 and IN 63.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 28, 2021, 12:48:53 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 27, 2021, 08:29:15 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 26, 2021, 07:14:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I-65 exists for Chicago-Nashville travel.
Actually, when I got to visit my brother outside of Nashville, I do use I-57 to I-24 a lot. It's a much quicker route than I-65 via Indy and Louisville.
I prefer using US 41. I do switch up between US 41 and IN 63.
How much faster is IN 63?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 28, 2021, 01:07:19 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 28, 2021, 12:48:53 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 27, 2021, 08:29:15 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 26, 2021, 07:14:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I-65 exists for Chicago-Nashville travel.
Actually, when I got to visit my brother outside of Nashville, I do use I-57 to I-24 a lot. It's a much quicker route than I-65 via Indy and Louisville.
I prefer using US 41. I do switch up between US 41 and IN 63.
How much faster is IN 63?
About 20 minutes. Much more scenic though.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 28, 2021, 01:27:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 28, 2021, 01:07:19 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 28, 2021, 12:48:53 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 27, 2021, 08:29:15 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 26, 2021, 07:14:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I-65 exists for Chicago-Nashville travel.
Actually, when I got to visit my brother outside of Nashville, I do use I-57 to I-24 a lot. It's a much quicker route than I-65 via Indy and Louisville.
I prefer using US 41. I do switch up between US 41 and IN 63.
How much faster is IN 63?
About 20 minutes. Much more scenic though.
Also more lanes
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 28, 2021, 01:45:36 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 28, 2021, 01:27:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 28, 2021, 01:07:19 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 28, 2021, 12:48:53 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 27, 2021, 08:29:15 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 26, 2021, 07:14:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I-65 exists for Chicago-Nashville travel.
Actually, when I got to visit my brother outside of Nashville, I do use I-57 to I-24 a lot. It's a much quicker route than I-65 via Indy and Louisville.
I prefer using US 41. I do switch up between US 41 and IN 63.
How much faster is IN 63?
About 20 minutes. Much more scenic though.
Also more lanes
Sorry, I meant US-41 is more scenic. IN-63 is flat and boring - with more lanes.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 28, 2021, 02:02:36 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 28, 2021, 01:45:36 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 28, 2021, 01:27:29 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 28, 2021, 01:07:19 PM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 28, 2021, 12:48:53 PM
Quote from: hobsini2 on June 27, 2021, 08:29:15 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 26, 2021, 07:14:24 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 06:30:29 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 06:15:41 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 26, 2021, 05:39:01 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 26, 2021, 04:54:25 PM
Why is St. Louis used west of Paducah?
What else would you use?
Exactly my point. Where else are the majority of drivers headed?
To plays devils advocate a lot are probably going to Chicago and other places in Illinois.
I-65 exists for Chicago-Nashville travel.
Actually, when I got to visit my brother outside of Nashville, I do use I-57 to I-24 a lot. It's a much quicker route than I-65 via Indy and Louisville.
I prefer using US 41. I do switch up between US 41 and IN 63.
How much faster is IN 63?
About 20 minutes. Much more scenic though.
Also more lanes
Sorry, I meant US-41 is more scenic. IN-63 is flat and boring - with more lanes.
Ok makes sense.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 28, 2021, 12:25:02 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 28, 2021, 12:12:26 PM
I've blown through Indiana before on US-41 and IN-63 and not had a problem. I did 70-75 most of the way.
With speed limits out of the picture then, I could probably sustain 80-85 mph on the interstate for long distances, especially if it's not a peak travel period.
I've done that before so it's not out of the question. Once you get to Terre Haute using IN-63 saves you about 20 minutes so I liked using that highway too. Using IN-63 over US-41 shaves off about 4 miles too.
US-41 is also more dangerous than IN-63. You have two lanes on US-41 vs. a four lane divided highway on IN-63. Like I said before IN-63 only saves you about 4 miles but also in time about 18-20 minutes.
The US-41 routing I mentioned Google gave above for being around the same time as I-57 included that SH-63 leg.
Right now, Google is showing I-24 to I-57 being about 10 minutes faster than US-41/SH-63.
Interestingly, Google also shows from Evansville to Chicago, taking I-69 to I-465 to I-65 is about the same time as US-41/SH-63. Given the upgrade of SH-37 and completion of the last leg of I-69 between Martinsville and Indianapolis would shave off at least 10 minutes of that, it would actually end up being faster traveling via Indianapolis then up US-41/SH-63 by about 10-15 minutes, given no traffic - even quicker than I-57 for a full trip from Clarksville?
Likely just that factor of 70 mph interstate the whole way or 60 mph divided highway as far as going I-69/65 vs. US-41/SH-63.
US 41 speed limit should be 70
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 28, 2021, 06:07:11 PM
US 41 speed limit should be 70
Have you ever driven it?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 28, 2021, 06:07:11 PM
US 41 speed limit should be 70
Too many at-grade intersections for 70 mph. Is there even a rural expressway corridor in the Midwest with a speed limit higher than 65 mph?
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 28, 2021, 09:03:12 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 28, 2021, 06:07:11 PM
US 41 speed limit should be 70
Too many at-grade intersections for 70 mph. Is there even a rural expressway corridor in the Midwest with a speed limit higher than 65 mph?
It should be 65 mph. US-127 in Michigan between Ithaca and St. Johns is like that and it's 65 mph.
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 28, 2021, 09:03:12 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 28, 2021, 06:07:11 PM
US 41 speed limit should be 70
Too many at-grade intersections for 70 mph. Is there even a rural expressway corridor in the Midwest with a speed limit higher than 65 mph?
I changed my mind 65 would work.
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 28, 2021, 09:03:12 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 28, 2021, 06:07:11 PM
US 41 speed limit should be 70
Too many at-grade intersections for 70 mph. Is there even a rural expressway corridor in the Midwest with a speed limit higher than 65 mph?
You ever go to any states with a 70 mph arterial speed limit? It's really not that fast. It's appropriate, IMO.
Also, to answer your question, Ohio. Missouri.
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 28, 2021, 09:03:12 PM
Is there even a rural expressway corridor in the Midwest with a speed limit higher than 65 mph?
Yep. In your own state, no less (https://goo.gl/maps/GeDXseeDWrrAH9eu7).
Quote from: US 89 on June 29, 2021, 01:41:46 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 28, 2021, 09:03:12 PM
Is there even a rural expressway corridor in the Midwest with a speed limit higher than 65 mph?
Yep. In your own state, no less (https://goo.gl/maps/GeDXseeDWrrAH9eu7).
I was going to mention US-30 because I've driven on it in Ohio and knew it had a 70 mph speed limit for at least some of it's stretch through Ohio.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 29, 2021, 08:35:29 AM
Quote from: US 89 on June 29, 2021, 01:41:46 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 28, 2021, 09:03:12 PM
Is there even a rural expressway corridor in the Midwest with a speed limit higher than 65 mph?
Yep. In your own state, no less (https://goo.gl/maps/GeDXseeDWrrAH9eu7).
I was going to mention US-30 because I've driven on it in Ohio and knew it had a 70 mph speed limit for at least some of it's stretch through Ohio.
It's also a freeway for a good portion of its stretch, which is why I didn't mention it, as I was pretty sure the speed drops to 65 once the freeway portion ends. It seems like US 30 have much fewer at-grade intersections than other expressways (like US 41 in IN, and OH 32, which is signed at 60 mph), to warrant the 70 mph limit.
The control city on I-65 south of Nashville was Birmingham for years. It is now Huntsville. Huntsville city limit actually does now touch I-65 believe it or not. Huntsville has annexed way out west.
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 29, 2021, 08:58:50 AM
The control city on I-65 south of Nashville was Birmingham for years. It is now Huntsville. Huntsville city limit actually does now touch I-65 believe it or not. Huntsville has annexed way out west.
Huntsville will be the largest city in Alabama in a year or so.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 09:24:50 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 29, 2021, 08:58:50 AM
The control city on I-65 south of Nashville was Birmingham for years. It is now Huntsville. Huntsville city limit actually does now touch I-65 believe it or not. Huntsville has annexed way out west.
Huntsville will be the largest city in Alabama in a year or so.
It is interesting that the 3 fastest growing cities of consequence in Alabama (Huntsville, Tuscaloosa and Auburn) all have something to do with research and development.
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 29, 2021, 08:57:32 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 29, 2021, 08:35:29 AM
Quote from: US 89 on June 29, 2021, 01:41:46 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 28, 2021, 09:03:12 PM
Is there even a rural expressway corridor in the Midwest with a speed limit higher than 65 mph?
Yep. In your own state, no less (https://goo.gl/maps/GeDXseeDWrrAH9eu7).
I was going to mention US-30 because I've driven on it in Ohio and knew it had a 70 mph speed limit for at least some of it's stretch through Ohio.
It's also a freeway for a good portion of its stretch, which is why I didn't mention it, as I was pretty sure the speed drops to 65 once the freeway portion ends. It seems like US 30 have much fewer at-grade intersections than other expressways (like US 41 in IN, and OH 32, which is signed at 60 mph), to warrant the 70 mph limit.
Well I know the stretch with at grade intersections east of Mansfield is 60 mph. I only took US-30 as far east as Canton and this was a week ago so I remember it pretty well. I was county clinching on my way to New Stanton, PA so I took a little different route than normal.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 09:24:50 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 29, 2021, 08:58:50 AM
The control city on I-65 south of Nashville was Birmingham for years. It is now Huntsville. Huntsville city limit actually does now touch I-65 believe it or not. Huntsville has annexed way out west.
Huntsville will be the largest city in Alabama in a year or so.
Not that surprising. The top four largest cities in Alabama are pretty close in population to each other.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 29, 2021, 10:19:21 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 09:24:50 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 29, 2021, 08:58:50 AM
The control city on I-65 south of Nashville was Birmingham for years. It is now Huntsville. Huntsville city limit actually does now touch I-65 believe it or not. Huntsville has annexed way out west.
Huntsville will be the largest city in Alabama in a year or so.
Not that surprising. The top four largest cities in Alabama are pretty close in population to each other.
If you would have told people in 1960 that Huntsville would be the largest city in Alabama, when it had about 70,000 residents and Birmingham had over 300,000, they would have thought you were nuts.
I wonder when the last time a state's most populous city changed? Maybe Columbus, Ohio in the early 1990s?
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 10:23:12 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 29, 2021, 10:19:21 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 09:24:50 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 29, 2021, 08:58:50 AM
The control city on I-65 south of Nashville was Birmingham for years. It is now Huntsville. Huntsville city limit actually does now touch I-65 believe it or not. Huntsville has annexed way out west.
Huntsville will be the largest city in Alabama in a year or so.
Not that surprising. The top four largest cities in Alabama are pretty close in population to each other.
If you would have told people in 1960 that Huntsville would be the largest city in Alabama, when it had about 70,000 residents and Birmingham had over 300,000, they would have thought you were nuts.
I wonder when the last time a state's most populous city changed? Maybe Columbus, Ohio in the early 1990s?
Nashville passed Memphis in population about 5 years ago I think.
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 29, 2021, 10:24:45 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 10:23:12 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 29, 2021, 10:19:21 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 09:24:50 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 29, 2021, 08:58:50 AM
The control city on I-65 south of Nashville was Birmingham for years. It is now Huntsville. Huntsville city limit actually does now touch I-65 believe it or not. Huntsville has annexed way out west.
Huntsville will be the largest city in Alabama in a year or so.
Not that surprising. The top four largest cities in Alabama are pretty close in population to each other.
If you would have told people in 1960 that Huntsville would be the largest city in Alabama, when it had about 70,000 residents and Birmingham had over 300,000, they would have thought you were nuts.
I wonder when the last time a state's most populous city changed? Maybe Columbus, Ohio in the early 1990s?
Nashville passed Memphis in population about 5 years ago I think.
Ah good call.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 10:23:12 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 29, 2021, 10:19:21 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 09:24:50 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 29, 2021, 08:58:50 AM
The control city on I-65 south of Nashville was Birmingham for years. It is now Huntsville. Huntsville city limit actually does now touch I-65 believe it or not. Huntsville has annexed way out west.
Huntsville will be the largest city in Alabama in a year or so.
Not that surprising. The top four largest cities in Alabama are pretty close in population to each other.
If you would have told people in 1960 that Huntsville would be the largest city in Alabama, when it had about 70,000 residents and Birmingham had over 300,000, they would have thought you were nuts.
I wonder when the last time a state's most populous city changed? Maybe Columbus, Ohio in the early 1990s?
That's true. Like in Michigan I would never expect Grand Rapids to pass Detroit in population but I've heard people say that Grand Rapids will do that. I honestly don't see it happening because I don't see Grand Rapids becoming a city of over 250,000 but I guess it could. Like SkyPesos said though I think Nashville overtaking Memphis was the last change in largest cities in a state.
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 29, 2021, 08:57:32 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 29, 2021, 08:35:29 AM
Quote from: US 89 on June 29, 2021, 01:41:46 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 28, 2021, 09:03:12 PM
Is there even a rural expressway corridor in the Midwest with a speed limit higher than 65 mph?
Yep. In your own state, no less (https://goo.gl/maps/GeDXseeDWrrAH9eu7).
I was going to mention US-30 because I've driven on it in Ohio and knew it had a 70 mph speed limit for at least some of it's stretch through Ohio.
It's also a freeway for a good portion of its stretch, which is why I didn't mention it, as I was pretty sure the speed drops to 65 once the freeway portion ends. It seems like US 30 have much fewer at-grade intersections than other expressways (like US 41 in IN, and OH 32, which is signed at 60 mph), to warrant the 70 mph limit.
The expressways in Indiana are only capped at 60 mph because state law indicates any roadway without limited access (freeway design) must be so, it's not based off any engineering data. Even limited access freeway segments in Indiana are restricted to 65 mph, only interstates can be 70 mph.
As for Ohio, I don't believe anything is restricting them. I feel expressways like OH-32 could easily be 65 mph or even 70 mph in areas. They said IIRC their internal policy is to not post above 60 mph on anything that isn't controlled access (I.E. their 65 mph and higher roads have intersections but no private driveways)... but the western end of the 70 mph US-30 segment near Indiana is an uncontrolled access roadway with private driveways and still holds 70 mph.
I wish more states would follow a blanket policy like Texas does, where it simply sets a state wide maximum of 75 mph and allows engineers to raise any road type to that speed, not categorizing it based on road design (I.E. freeway, four lane divided, two lane, etc.). Because they have the authority, engineers have determined 75 mph is appropriate even on many rural 2 lane roads and most of their divided highways (even busier, heavier traffic ones) simply based on design, visibility, what the 85th percentile speeds are, and other factors.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 29, 2021, 11:15:08 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 29, 2021, 08:57:32 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 29, 2021, 08:35:29 AM
Quote from: US 89 on June 29, 2021, 01:41:46 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 28, 2021, 09:03:12 PM
Is there even a rural expressway corridor in the Midwest with a speed limit higher than 65 mph?
Yep. In your own state, no less (https://goo.gl/maps/GeDXseeDWrrAH9eu7).
I was going to mention US-30 because I've driven on it in Ohio and knew it had a 70 mph speed limit for at least some of it's stretch through Ohio.
It's also a freeway for a good portion of its stretch, which is why I didn't mention it, as I was pretty sure the speed drops to 65 once the freeway portion ends. It seems like US 30 have much fewer at-grade intersections than other expressways (like US 41 in IN, and OH 32, which is signed at 60 mph), to warrant the 70 mph limit.
The expressways in Indiana are only capped at 60 mph because state law indicates any roadway without limited access (freeway design) must be so, it's not based off any engineering data. Even limited access freeway segments in Indiana are restricted to 65 mph, only interstates can be 70 mph.
As for Ohio, I don't believe anything is restricting them. I feel expressways like OH-32 could easily be 65 mph or even 70 mph in areas. They said IIRC their internal policy is to not post above 60 mph on anything that isn't controlled access (I.E. their 65 mph and higher roads have intersections but no private driveways)... but the western end of the 70 mph US-30 segment near Indiana is an uncontrolled access roadway with private driveways and still holds 70 mph.
I wish more states would follow a blanket policy like Texas does, where it simply sets a state wide maximum of 75 mph and allows engineers to raise any road type to that speed, not categorizing it based on road design (I.E. freeway, four lane divided, two lane, etc.). Because they have the authority, engineers have determined 75 mph is appropriate even on many rural 2 lane roads and most of their divided highways (even busier, heavier traffic ones) simply based on design, visibility, what the 85th percentile speeds are, and other factors.
What 2 lane roads in Indiana do you think could be safely posted at 75? Or any two-lane roads in the east? They probably are some, I just don't know where.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 29, 2021, 01:22:53 PM
What 2 lane roads in Indiana do you think could be safely posted at 75? Or any two-lane roads in the east? They probably are some, I just don't know where.
I'm not suggesting any specifics or that any should be. I'm simply saying engineers should have the option to determine and post an appropriate speed on a road, and not be capped to X speed because it's a certain classification (non-limited-access, limited-access, four lane, two lane, divided, undivided, interstate, non-interstate, etc.) even if it's designed for and can safely handle 10 or 15 mph higher.
Quote from: sprjus4 on June 29, 2021, 11:15:08 AM
I wish more states would follow a blanket policy like Texas does, where it simply sets a state wide maximum of 75 mph and allows engineers to raise any road type to that speed, not categorizing it based on road design (I.E. freeway, four lane divided, two lane, etc.). Because they have the authority, engineers have determined 75 mph is appropriate even on many rural 2 lane roads and most of their divided highways (even busier, heavier traffic ones) simply based on design, visibility, what the 85th percentile speeds are, and other factors.
I never heard of this policy, but I like it. Maybe Ohio can do the same thing with a statewide max of 70 mph. Could possibly raise some 2 line rural roads from the current max of 55 mph for that type, and as you mentioned, raising OH 32 (as well as some other expressways in Appalachian Ohio) from 60 to 65. Though I'm still wondering why our rural interstates in the eastern US have a lower speed limit than comparable freeways in a lot of other countries, which are signed at 120 km/h (75 mph).
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 29, 2021, 01:39:54 PM
I never heard of this policy, but I like it. Maybe Ohio can do the same thing with a statewide max of 70 mph. Could possibly raise some 2 line rural roads from the current max of 55 mph for that type, and as you mentioned, raising OH 32 (as well as some other expressways in Appalachian Ohio) from 60 to 65.
And it's interestingly honestly, because I'm not sure there's a legal provision in the Ohio statue that gives the authority for a non-limited-access divided highway such as US-30 to have a posted speed limit above 65 mph. Additionally, two lane roads are permitted to be posted up to 60 mph, though I'm not sure of any instance of that actually happening.
The state law specifically indicates:
Quote
(B) It is prima-facie lawful, in the absence of a lower limit declared or established pursuant to this section by the director of transportation or local authorities, for the operator of a motor vehicle, trackless trolley, or streetcar to operate the same at a speed not exceeding the following:
(2) Twenty-five miles per hour in all other portions of a municipal corporation, except on state routes outside business districts, through highways outside business districts, and alleys;
(3) Thirty-five miles per hour on all state routes or through highways within municipal corporations outside business districts, except as provided in divisions (B)(4) and (6) of this section;
(4) Fifty miles per hour on controlled-access highways and expressways within municipal corporations, except as provided in divisions (B)(12), (13), (14), (15), and (16) of this section;
(5) Fifty-five miles per hour on highways outside municipal corporations, other than highways within island jurisdictions as provided in division (B)(8) of this section, highways as provided in divisions (B)(9) and (10) of this section, and highways, expressways, and freeways as provided in divisions (B)(12), (13), (14), and (16) of this section;
(6) Fifty miles per hour on state routes within municipal corporations outside urban districts unless a lower prima-facie speed is established as further provided in this section;
(7) Fifteen miles per hour on all alleys within the municipal corporation;
(8) Thirty-five miles per hour on highways outside municipal corporations that are within an island jurisdiction;
(9) Thirty-five miles per hour on through highways, except state routes, that are outside municipal corporations and that are within a national park with boundaries extending through two or more counties;
(10) Sixty miles per hour on two-lane state routes outside municipal corporations as established by the director under division (H)(2) of this section;
(11) Fifty-five miles per hour on freeways with paved shoulders inside municipal corporations, other than freeways as provided in divisions (B)(14) and (16) of this section;
(12) Sixty miles per hour on rural expressways with traffic control signals and on all portions of rural divided highways, except as provided in divisions (B)(13) and (14) of this section;
(13) Sixty-five miles per hour on all rural expressways without traffic control signals;
(14) Seventy miles per hour on all rural freeways;
(15) Fifty-five miles per hour on all portions of freeways or expressways in congested areas as determined by the director and that are located within a municipal corporation or within an interstate freeway outerbelt, except as provided in division (B)(16) of this section;
(16) Sixty-five miles per hour on all portions of freeways or expressways without traffic control signals in urbanized areas.
This is Texas' law regarding speed limits:
Quote
(b) Unless a special hazard exists that requires a slower speed for compliance with Section 545.351(b) , the following speeds are lawful:
(1) 30 miles per hour in an urban district on a street other than an alley and 15 miles per hour in an alley;
(2) except as provided by Subdivision (4), 70 miles per hour on a highway numbered by this state or the United States outside an urban district, including a farm-to-market or ranch-to-market road;
(3) except as provided by Subdivision (4), 60 miles per hour on a highway that is outside an urban district and not a highway numbered by this state or the United States;
(4) outside an urban district:
(A) 60 miles per hour if the vehicle is a school bus that has passed a commercial motor vehicle inspection under Section 548.201 and is on a highway numbered by the United States or this state, including a farm-to-market road; or
(B) 50 miles per hour if the vehicle is a school bus that:
(i) has not passed a commercial motor vehicle inspection under Section 548.201 ; or
(ii) is traveling on a highway not numbered by the United States or this state;
(5) on a beach, 15 miles per hour; or
(6) on a county road adjacent to a public beach, 15 miles per hour, if declared by the commissioners court of the county.
(h) Notwithstanding Section 545.352(b) , the commission may establish a speed limit of 75 miles per hour on a part of the highway system if the commission determines that 75 miles per hour is a reasonable and safe speed for that part of the highway system.
(h-1) Notwithstanding Section 545.352(b) , the commission may establish a speed limit of 80 miles per hour on a part of Interstate Highway 10 or Interstate Highway 20 in Crockett, Culberson, Hudspeth, Jeff Davis, Kerr, Kimble, Pecos, Reeves, Sutton, or Ward County if the commission determines that 80 miles per hour is a reasonable and safe speed for that part of the highway.
(h-2) Notwithstanding Section 545.352(b) , the commission may establish a speed limit not to exceed 85 miles per hour on a part of the state highway system if:
(1) that part of the highway system is designed to accommodate travel at that established speed or a higher speed; and
(2) the commission determines, after an engineering and traffic investigation, that the established speed limit is reasonable and safe for that part of the highway system.
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 29, 2021, 10:24:45 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 10:23:12 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 29, 2021, 10:19:21 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 09:24:50 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 29, 2021, 08:58:50 AM
The control city on I-65 south of Nashville was Birmingham for years. It is now Huntsville. Huntsville city limit actually does now touch I-65 believe it or not. Huntsville has annexed way out west.
Huntsville will be the largest city in Alabama in a year or so.
Not that surprising. The top four largest cities in Alabama are pretty close in population to each other.
If you would have told people in 1960 that Huntsville would be the largest city in Alabama, when it had about 70,000 residents and Birmingham had over 300,000, they would have thought you were nuts.
I wonder when the last time a state's most populous city changed? Maybe Columbus, Ohio in the early 1990s?
Nashville passed Memphis in population about 5 years ago I think.
VA Beach surpassed Norfolk in Virginia sometime in the mid 1980's I think.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 10:23:12 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 29, 2021, 10:19:21 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 09:24:50 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 29, 2021, 08:58:50 AM
The control city on I-65 south of Nashville was Birmingham for years. It is now Huntsville. Huntsville city limit actually does now touch I-65 believe it or not. Huntsville has annexed way out west.
Huntsville will be the largest city in Alabama in a year or so.
Not that surprising. The top four largest cities in Alabama are pretty close in population to each other.
If you would have told people in 1960 that Huntsville would be the largest city in Alabama, when it had about 70,000 residents and Birmingham had over 300,000, they would have thought you were nuts.
I wonder when the last time a state's most populous city changed? Maybe Columbus, Ohio in the early 1990s?
Connecticut's five largest cities (Bridgeport, New Haven, Stamford, Hartford, Waterbury) are all within 37k people of each other, not sure when Bridgeport became the largest though.
Quote from: thspfc on June 30, 2021, 11:52:46 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 10:23:12 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 29, 2021, 10:19:21 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 09:24:50 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 29, 2021, 08:58:50 AM
The control city on I-65 south of Nashville was Birmingham for years. It is now Huntsville. Huntsville city limit actually does now touch I-65 believe it or not. Huntsville has annexed way out west.
Huntsville will be the largest city in Alabama in a year or so.
Not that surprising. The top four largest cities in Alabama are pretty close in population to each other.
If you would have told people in 1960 that Huntsville would be the largest city in Alabama, when it had about 70,000 residents and Birmingham had over 300,000, they would have thought you were nuts.
I wonder when the last time a state's most populous city changed? Maybe Columbus, Ohio in the early 1990s?
Connecticut's five largest cities (Bridgeport, New Haven, Stamford, Hartford, Waterbury) are all within 37k people of each other, not sure when Bridgeport became the largest though.
According to https://portal.ct.gov/SOTS/Register-Manual/Section-VII/Population-1900-1960, Hartford and Bridgeport have been trading back and forth the title of largest city. 1980 was the last change. New Haven was close but never took it over. This link also shows 1970-2000.
Interesting that Bridgeport feels like an afterthought in SW Connecticut even though it's the largest city in the state.
Quote from: thspfc on June 30, 2021, 11:52:46 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 10:23:12 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 29, 2021, 10:19:21 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 29, 2021, 09:24:50 AM
Quote from: Avalanchez71 on June 29, 2021, 08:58:50 AM
The control city on I-65 south of Nashville was Birmingham for years. It is now Huntsville. Huntsville city limit actually does now touch I-65 believe it or not. Huntsville has annexed way out west.
Huntsville will be the largest city in Alabama in a year or so.
Not that surprising. The top four largest cities in Alabama are pretty close in population to each other.
If you would have told people in 1960 that Huntsville would be the largest city in Alabama, when it had about 70,000 residents and Birmingham had over 300,000, they would have thought you were nuts.
I wonder when the last time a state's most populous city changed? Maybe Columbus, Ohio in the early 1990s?
Connecticut's five largest cities (Bridgeport, New Haven, Stamford, Hartford, Waterbury) are all within 37k people of each other, not sure when Bridgeport became the largest though.
It overtook New Haven in the 1950's.
In 1950 New Haven had 164,443 and Bridgeport had 158,709.
In 1960 Bridgeport had 156,748 and New Haven had 152,048.
At this time Hartford was the largest city in Connecticut though.
It overtook Hartford in the 1970's.
Not to further the off-topic section of the thread, but I'm going to further the off-topic section of the thread:
Here's a breakdown of the most recent census in which a state's largest city changed. I've done 39 of the states (not done: DE, ID, KS, MD, ME, ND, NH, NM, RI, SD, VT). Some of those are probably obvious - I'll fill 'em in when I get another break. Corrections welcome!
1830
KY: Louisville > Lexington
NJ: Newark > Trenton
1860
IN: Indianapolis > New Albany
1870
NB: Omaha > Nebraska City
1880
GA: Atlanta > Savannah
IA: Des Moines > Davenport
1890
MN: Minneapolis > St. Paul
WA: Seattle > Walla Walla
1900
OK: Oklahoma City > Gutrhie
TN: Memphis > Nasvhille
1910
AL: Birmingham > Mobile
1920
AZ: Phoenix > Tucson
CA: Los Angeles > San Francisco
1930
MS: Jackson > Meridian
NC: Charlotte > Winston-Salem
TX: Houston > San Antonio
1950:
AK: Anchorage > Juneau
SC: Columbia > Charleston
1960
NV: Las Vegas > Reno
1970
FL: Jacksonville > Miami
MT: Billings > Great Falls
WV: Charleston > Huntington
1980
CT: Bridgeport > Hartford
1990
MO: Kansas City > St. Louis
OH: Columbus > Cleveland
VA: Virginia Beach > Norfolk
WY: Cheyenne > Casper
These cities have had the same largest city since the listed census years:
AR: Little Rock (1850)
CO: Denver (1860)
HI: Honolulu (1890)
IL: Chicago (1840)
LA: New Orleans (1810)
MA: Boston (1790)
MI: Detroit (1820)
OR: Portland (1850)
PA: Philadelphia (1790)
NY: New York (1790)
UT: Salt Lake City (1850)
WI: Milwaukee (1840)
(not at all comprehensive) Notes:
CT: New Haven largest 1810-1920
FL: Jacksonville largest 1900-1940, Miami largest 1950-1960
MT: Helena largest 1870-1890, Butte largest 1900-1940
NC: Wilmington largest 1840-1900, Charlotte largest 1910
TN: Memphis largest 1860-1870
VA: Richmond largest 1810-1950
WV: Wheeling largest 1870–1920, Huntington largest 1930-1950, Charleston largest 1960
WY: Cheyenne largest 1870-1970
Let's move this largest city discussion to another thread.
Quote from: DTComposer on June 30, 2021, 04:20:15 PM
Not to further the off-topic section of the thread, but I'm going to further the off-topic section of the thread:
Here's a breakdown of the most recent census in which a state's largest city changed. I've done 38 of the states (not done: DE, ID, KS, MD, ME, ND, NH, NM, RI, SD, UT, VT). Some of those are probably obvious - I'll fill 'em in when I get another break. Corrections welcome!
1830
KY: Louisville > Lexington
NJ: Newark > Trenton
1860
IN: Indianapolis > New Albany
1870
NB: Omaha > Nebraska City
1880
GA: Atlanta > Savannah
IA: Des Moines > Davenport
1890
MN: Minneapolis > St. Paul
WA: Seattle > Walla Walla
1900
OK: Oklahoma City > Gutrhie
TN: Memphis > Nasvhille
1910
AL: Birmingham > Mobile
1920
AZ: Phoenix > Tucson
CA: Los Angeles > San Francisco
1930
MS: Jackson > Meridian
NC: Charlotte > Winston-Salem
TX: Houston > San Antonio
1950:
AK: Anchorage > Juneau
SC: Columbia > Charleston
I believe the next census will show Charleston has retaken the lead in South Carolina.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 30, 2021, 04:31:38 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on June 30, 2021, 04:20:15 PM
Not to further the off-topic section of the thread, but I'm going to further the off-topic section of the thread:
Here's a breakdown of the most recent census in which a state's largest city changed. I've done 38 of the states (not done: DE, ID, KS, MD, ME, ND, NH, NM, RI, SD, UT, VT). Some of those are probably obvious - I'll fill 'em in when I get another break. Corrections welcome!
1830
KY: Louisville > Lexington
NJ: Newark > Trenton
1860
IN: Indianapolis > New Albany
1870
NB: Omaha > Nebraska City
1880
GA: Atlanta > Savannah
IA: Des Moines > Davenport
1890
MN: Minneapolis > St. Paul
WA: Seattle > Walla Walla
1900
OK: Oklahoma City > Gutrhie
TN: Memphis > Nasvhille
1910
AL: Birmingham > Mobile
1920
AZ: Phoenix > Tucson
CA: Los Angeles > San Francisco
1930
MS: Jackson > Meridian
NC: Charlotte > Winston-Salem
TX: Houston > San Antonio
1950:
AK: Anchorage > Juneau
SC: Columbia > Charleston
I believe the next census will show Charleston has retaken the lead in South Carolina.
I always thought that Charleston was the largest city.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 04:50:56 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 30, 2021, 04:31:38 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on June 30, 2021, 04:20:15 PM
Not to further the off-topic section of the thread, but I'm going to further the off-topic section of the thread:
Here's a breakdown of the most recent census in which a state's largest city changed. I've done 38 of the states (not done: DE, ID, KS, MD, ME, ND, NH, NM, RI, SD, UT, VT). Some of those are probably obvious - I'll fill 'em in when I get another break. Corrections welcome!
1830
KY: Louisville > Lexington
NJ: Newark > Trenton
1860
IN: Indianapolis > New Albany
1870
NB: Omaha > Nebraska City
1880
GA: Atlanta > Savannah
IA: Des Moines > Davenport
1890
MN: Minneapolis > St. Paul
WA: Seattle > Walla Walla
1900
OK: Oklahoma City > Gutrhie
TN: Memphis > Nasvhille
1910
AL: Birmingham > Mobile
1920
AZ: Phoenix > Tucson
CA: Los Angeles > San Francisco
1930
MS: Jackson > Meridian
NC: Charlotte > Winston-Salem
TX: Houston > San Antonio
1950:
AK: Anchorage > Juneau
SC: Columbia > Charleston
I believe the next census will show Charleston has retaken the lead in South Carolina.
I always thought that Charleston was the largest city.
Columbia has been the largest city in South Carolina for awhile.
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 04:50:56 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 30, 2021, 04:31:38 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on June 30, 2021, 04:20:15 PM
Not to further the off-topic section of the thread, but I'm going to further the off-topic section of the thread:
Here's a breakdown of the most recent census in which a state's largest city changed. I've done 38 of the states (not done: DE, ID, KS, MD, ME, ND, NH, NM, RI, SD, UT, VT). Some of those are probably obvious - I'll fill 'em in when I get another break. Corrections welcome!
1830
KY: Louisville > Lexington
NJ: Newark > Trenton
1860
IN: Indianapolis > New Albany
1870
NB: Omaha > Nebraska City
1880
GA: Atlanta > Savannah
IA: Des Moines > Davenport
1890
MN: Minneapolis > St. Paul
WA: Seattle > Walla Walla
1900
OK: Oklahoma City > Gutrhie
TN: Memphis > Nasvhille
1910
AL: Birmingham > Mobile
1920
AZ: Phoenix > Tucson
CA: Los Angeles > San Francisco
1930
MS: Jackson > Meridian
NC: Charlotte > Winston-Salem
TX: Houston > San Antonio
1950:
AK: Anchorage > Juneau
SC: Columbia > Charleston
I believe the next census will show Charleston has retaken the lead in South Carolina.
I always thought that Charleston was the largest city.
Columbia has been the largest city in South Carolina for awhile.
Huh. Is the Charleston metro area bigger?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 06:37:47 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on June 30, 2021, 06:36:02 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 04:50:56 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on June 30, 2021, 04:31:38 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on June 30, 2021, 04:20:15 PM
Not to further the off-topic section of the thread, but I'm going to further the off-topic section of the thread:
Here's a breakdown of the most recent census in which a state's largest city changed. I've done 38 of the states (not done: DE, ID, KS, MD, ME, ND, NH, NM, RI, SD, UT, VT). Some of those are probably obvious - I'll fill 'em in when I get another break. Corrections welcome!
1830
KY: Louisville > Lexington
NJ: Newark > Trenton
1860
IN: Indianapolis > New Albany
1870
NB: Omaha > Nebraska City
1880
GA: Atlanta > Savannah
IA: Des Moines > Davenport
1890
MN: Minneapolis > St. Paul
WA: Seattle > Walla Walla
1900
OK: Oklahoma City > Gutrhie
TN: Memphis > Nasvhille
1910
AL: Birmingham > Mobile
1920
AZ: Phoenix > Tucson
CA: Los Angeles > San Francisco
1930
MS: Jackson > Meridian
NC: Charlotte > Winston-Salem
TX: Houston > San Antonio
1950:
AK: Anchorage > Juneau
SC: Columbia > Charleston
I believe the next census will show Charleston has retaken the lead in South Carolina.
I always thought that Charleston was the largest city.
Columbia has been the largest city in South Carolina for awhile.
Huh. Is the Charleston metro area bigger?
About the same size. Neither of them are the largest metros in the state though, that's Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson.
Quote from: DTComposer on June 30, 2021, 04:20:15 PM
1990
WY: Casper > Cheyenne
Think you meant to switch these - looks like Cheyenne has been bigger than Casper in every census except for 1980.
I would be shocked if any city in Utah has ever been larger than Salt Lake City.
Quote from: US 89 on June 30, 2021, 07:16:52 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on June 30, 2021, 04:20:15 PM
1990
WY: Casper > Cheyenne
Think you meant to switch these - looks like Cheyenne has been bigger than Casper in every census except for 1980.
I would be shocked if any city in Utah has ever been larger than Salt Lake City.
For Wisconsin I'm guessing that Milwaukee overtook Green Bay sometime in the early 19th century.
Quote from: thspfc on June 30, 2021, 07:49:56 PM
Quote from: US 89 on June 30, 2021, 07:16:52 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on June 30, 2021, 04:20:15 PM
1990
WY: Casper > Cheyenne
Think you meant to switch these - looks like Cheyenne has been bigger than Casper in every census except for 1980.
I would be shocked if any city in Utah has ever been larger than Salt Lake City.
For Wisconsin I'm guessing that Milwaukee overtook Green Bay sometime in the early 19th century.
My best guess is 1840s when Milwaukee grew in population: https://www2.census.gov/library/publications/decennial/1940/population-volume-1/33973538v1ch10.pdf
Quote from: thspfc on June 30, 2021, 07:49:56 PM
Quote from: US 89 on June 30, 2021, 07:16:52 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on June 30, 2021, 04:20:15 PM
1990
WY: Casper > Cheyenne
Think you meant to switch these - looks like Cheyenne has been bigger than Casper in every census except for 1980.
I would be shocked if any city in Utah has ever been larger than Salt Lake City.
For Wisconsin I'm guessing that Milwaukee overtook Green Bay sometime in the early 19th century.
Shocked that Green Bay was once the biggest city in Wisconsin.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 10:18:37 PM
Quote from: thspfc on June 30, 2021, 07:49:56 PM
Quote from: US 89 on June 30, 2021, 07:16:52 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on June 30, 2021, 04:20:15 PM
1990
WY: Casper > Cheyenne
Think you meant to switch these - looks like Cheyenne has been bigger than Casper in every census except for 1980.
I would be shocked if any city in Utah has ever been larger than Salt Lake City.
For Wisconsin I'm guessing that Milwaukee overtook Green Bay sometime in the early 19th century.
Shocked that Green Bay was once the biggest city in Wisconsin.
You shouldn't be if you know the exploration history of Wisconsin. What is Green Bay (and the surrounding area) today was first explored in 1634 by Jean Nicolet. It quickly became an important commerce port on the Great Lakes even before the Chicago and Milwaukee areas were explored. Father Marquette and Louis Joliet made their voyage down the Fox River and Wisconsin River to the Mississippi River in 1673. The Milwaukee area was not explored until 1674 and did not allow European settlements until the early 1800s.
BTW, if you want a fascinating read, look up the Milwaukee Bridge Wars of 1845 between Juneautown (East of the Milwaukee River) and Kilbourntown (west of the Milwaukee River. That's the reason why so many streets in Downtown have bridges at bad angles.
I don't think Green Bay was ever larger than Milwaukee even during the time of the Wisconsin Territory (1836-1848). But before that it was at one point in time, but that was when both had around 1,000 residents.
Going back to 1860 Green Bay has never been bigger than Milwaukee. In 1860 Green Bay had 2,275 while Milwaukee had 45,246. Green Bay wouldn't even match that population until 1940 when Milwaukee had almost 600,000 people. Green Bay didn't even hit 100,000 in population until 2000.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 09:42:06 AM
Going back to 1860 Green Bay has never been bigger than Milwaukee. In 1860 Green Bay had 2,275 while Milwaukee had 45,246. Green Bay wouldn't even match that population until 1940 when Milwaukee had almost 600,000 people. Green Bay didn't even hit 100,000 in population until 2000.
That is true. However, Green Bay was an established settlement long before Milwaukee. At some point, probably 1820-1840ish, Green Bay was larger just because it was an older settlement. And keep in mind, Milwaukee was 3 settlements (Juneautown, Kilbourntown and Walker's Point) until 1845. Something else I learned was all 3 founders of each of those settlements did serve as mayor of Milwaukee at some point after the city merged.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 09:42:06 AM
Going back to 1860 Green Bay has never been bigger than Milwaukee. In 1860 Green Bay had 2,275 while Milwaukee had 45,246. Green Bay wouldn't even match that population until 1940 when Milwaukee had almost 600,000 people. Green Bay didn't even hit 100,000 in population until 2000.
Green Bay will be overtaken by Kenosha as the third largest city in Wisconsin within the next couple of years.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 01, 2021, 10:07:50 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 09:42:06 AM
Going back to 1860 Green Bay has never been bigger than Milwaukee. In 1860 Green Bay had 2,275 while Milwaukee had 45,246. Green Bay wouldn't even match that population until 1940 when Milwaukee had almost 600,000 people. Green Bay didn't even hit 100,000 in population until 2000.
Green Bay will be overtaken by Kenosha as the third largest city in Wisconsin within the next couple of years.
Dang really? I see they are both growing at about a half percent over the last 10 years.
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 11:05:59 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 01, 2021, 10:07:50 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 09:42:06 AM
Going back to 1860 Green Bay has never been bigger than Milwaukee. In 1860 Green Bay had 2,275 while Milwaukee had 45,246. Green Bay wouldn't even match that population until 1940 when Milwaukee had almost 600,000 people. Green Bay didn't even hit 100,000 in population until 2000.
Green Bay will be overtaken by Kenosha as the third largest city in Wisconsin within the next couple of years.
Dang really? I see they are both growing at about a half percent over the last 10 years.
We will see what the 2020 Census says, but my guess is that Kenosha is growing faster.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 01, 2021, 11:07:45 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 11:05:59 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 01, 2021, 10:07:50 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 09:42:06 AM
Going back to 1860 Green Bay has never been bigger than Milwaukee. In 1860 Green Bay had 2,275 while Milwaukee had 45,246. Green Bay wouldn't even match that population until 1940 when Milwaukee had almost 600,000 people. Green Bay didn't even hit 100,000 in population until 2000.
Green Bay will be overtaken by Kenosha as the third largest city in Wisconsin within the next couple of years.
Dang really? I see they are both growing at about a half percent over the last 10 years.
We will see what the 2020 Census says, but my guess is that Kenosha is growing faster.
That should be out soon I think. I was in Madison last summer and noticed how much that city has grown over the last 20 years. I have been through there in the last 20 years and have spent the night along the Interstate there but that was the first time I had been into the city in about that long.
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 01, 2021, 09:49:54 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on July 01, 2021, 09:42:06 AM
Going back to 1860 Green Bay has never been bigger than Milwaukee. In 1860 Green Bay had 2,275 while Milwaukee had 45,246. Green Bay wouldn't even match that population until 1940 when Milwaukee had almost 600,000 people. Green Bay didn't even hit 100,000 in population until 2000.
That is true. However, Green Bay was an established settlement long before Milwaukee. At some point, probably 1820-1840ish, Green Bay was larger just because it was an older settlement. And keep in mind, Milwaukee was 3 settlements (Juneautown, Kilbourntown and Walker's Point) until 1845. Something else I learned was all 3 founders of each of those settlements did serve as mayor of Milwaukee at some point after the city merged.
That's how it is on the Great Lakes. Like Detroit was founded in 1701 and incorporated in 1806. I was talking to someone the other day about how old of a city Detroit really is celebrating the big 320 year mark this year. Chicago wasn't founded until 1780 and wasn't incorporated until 1833. It doesn't surprise me that Green Bay is older than Milwaukee because of how travel was back then.
Quote from: US 89 on June 30, 2021, 07:16:52 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on June 30, 2021, 04:20:15 PM
1990
WY: Casper > Cheyenne
Thank you, fixed!
Think you meant to switch these - looks like Cheyenne has been bigger than Casper in every census except for 1980.
I would be shocked if any city in Utah has ever been larger than Salt Lake City.
If Allentown isn't a control city on I-78 west of New York, maybe it should be. Probably the only thing stopping it is that people will see it and start singing the Billy Joel song.
Quote from: bandit957 on July 04, 2021, 11:51:59 AM
If Allentown isn't a control city on I-78 west of New York, maybe it should be. Probably the only thing stopping it is that people will see it and start singing the Billy Joel song.
NJ seems to use every little town as possible on I-78 west, and they try to avoid out of state controls too from the looks. I see Clinton used more than any of the Lehigh Valley cities in the NJ side of the NYC metro area, and west of Clinton, it's either "Philipsburg" or "Pennsylvania" instead of any of the three main Lehigh Valley cities.
I haven't looked at all major freeway to freeway interchanges, as NJ's interchanges are a hell to trace around on Google Maps to find the correct ramp. So maybe a Lehigh Valley city is used at one of those freeway to freeway interchanges.
^ Yes. At the I-78/I-287 interchange, the control city for I-78 West from I-287 is Easton, PA--not Allentown (which is what it should be).
https://goo.gl/maps/CkvhD3ZPKTHspycAA
However, at the same interchange, the I-78 WB pull-through sign has Phillipsburg.
https://goo.gl/maps/UnhPoyKpcKwRBSbDA
Consistency?
Quote from: bandit957 on July 04, 2021, 11:51:59 AM
If Allentown isn't a control city on I-78 west of New York, maybe it should be. Probably the only thing stopping it is that people will see it and start singing the Billy Joel song.
If Allentown was a control city, that would inevitably lead to people getting lost on I-78 searching for a Pennsylvania they'd never found.
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on July 07, 2021, 01:44:18 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on July 04, 2021, 11:51:59 AM
If Allentown isn't a control city on I-78 west of New York, maybe it should be. Probably the only thing stopping it is that people will see it and start singing the Billy Joel song.
If Allentown was a control city, that would inevitably lead to people getting lost on I-78 searching for a Pennsylvania they'd never found.
https://media.giphy.com/media/nUECVDZSR1xmpxBcHS/giphy.gif
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on July 07, 2021, 01:44:18 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on July 04, 2021, 11:51:59 AM
If Allentown isn't a control city on I-78 west of New York, maybe it should be. Probably the only thing stopping it is that people will see it and start singing the Billy Joel song.
If Allentown was a control city, that would inevitably lead to people getting lost on I-78 searching for a Pennsylvania they'd never found.
I don't get it.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 07, 2021, 12:51:12 PM
Quote from: Occidental Tourist on July 07, 2021, 01:44:18 AM
Quote from: bandit957 on July 04, 2021, 11:51:59 AM
If Allentown isn't a control city on I-78 west of New York, maybe it should be. Probably the only thing stopping it is that people will see it and start singing the Billy Joel song.
If Allentown was a control city, that would inevitably lead to people getting lost on I-78 searching for a Pennsylvania they'd never found.
I don't get it.
This Billy Joel song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHnJp0oyOxs
Back to the topic of control cities getting smaller, I've noticed here in Texas the newer interstates have mostly small control cities. Granted they are all incomplete.
Like I know two of the the control cities for interstate 2 are Harlingen and McAllen and interstate 69 in Houston uses the old control cities from us 59: Victoria and Cleveland. I think the southbound control city for ih69 should be Corpus Christi and the northbound should be Texarkana
Quote from: achilles765 on July 11, 2021, 09:47:36 AM
Like I know two of the the control cities for interstate 2 are Harlingen and McAllen
The Rio Grande Valley is a whole bunch of medium-sized cities with no single large one (on the American side), similar to Northwest Arkansas and Upstate South Carolina. McAllen is a good choice.
Quote from: achilles765 on July 11, 2021, 09:47:36 AM
Back to the topic of control cities getting smaller, I've noticed here in Texas the newer interstates have mostly small control cities. Granted they are all incomplete.
Like I know two of the the control cities for interstate 2 are Harlingen and McAllen and interstate 69 in Houston uses the old control cities from us 59: Victoria and Cleveland. I think the southbound control city for ih69 should be Corpus Christi and the northbound should be Texarkana
Victoria is big enough to warrant it being a control city before Corpus Christi. It also is a major US route junction city.
Quote from: hobsini2 on July 12, 2021, 08:15:30 AM
Quote from: achilles765 on July 11, 2021, 09:47:36 AM
Back to the topic of control cities getting smaller, I've noticed here in Texas the newer interstates have mostly small control cities. Granted they are all incomplete.
Like I know two of the the control cities for interstate 2 are Harlingen and McAllen and interstate 69 in Houston uses the old control cities from us 59: Victoria and Cleveland. I think the southbound control city for ih69 should be Corpus Christi and the northbound should be Texarkana
Victoria is big enough to warrant it being a control city before Corpus Christi. It also is a major US route junction city.
It's not the worst choice but I would personally not use it.
Quote from: 1 on July 11, 2021, 09:53:15 AM
Quote from: achilles765 on July 11, 2021, 09:47:36 AM
Like I know two of the the control cities for interstate 2 are Harlingen and McAllen
The Rio Grande Valley is a whole bunch of medium-sized cities with no single large one (on the American side), similar to Northwest Arkansas and Upstate South Carolina. McAllen is a good choice.
Yeah. I actually kinda agree. The issue is that none of these newer interstates with the exception of 69 go through any really major cities. My husbands dads family is all from the valley. My husband himself is from Edinburgh. I like it down there; we are planning to go visit for thanksgiving this year.
But you're right about it being a collection of smaller cities. McAllen and Harlingen make sense. For I 2. I'm sure eventually it will also include Laredo and Brownsville when it's complete.