AARoads Forum

I-95/128 has 2
MA 24 has one
I-95 in CT has a couple
Meritt Parkway has a few
Any other examples?

Chesapeake and Maryland House on I-95 in Maryland.

I wish I saw more of these in North Carolina.

WK Pkwy just west of the I-165 interchange (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3755792,-86.8277448,3a,68.4y,17.78h,91.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLxnTZ00FdedQ5SCYx-YlLA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Quote from: tolbs17 on June 29, 2021, 08:56:21 PM
Chesapeake and Maryland House on I-95 in Maryland.

I wish I saw more of these in North Carolina.

They are banned on non toll interstates

Every service area in Québec is on a non-toll highway, as there's barely any tolled highways here (and from the 1970s until 2011, there were none at all). Also, none of the toll highways are in rural areas (both A-25 and A-30 are in the Montréal area), so they don't need service areas.

Quote from: tolbs17 on June 29, 2021, 08:56:21 PM
Chesapeake and Maryland House on I-95 in Maryland.

Aren't these technically on toll roads? I think I-95 is tolled except that you can easily avoid paying, except on the bridge.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 29, 2021, 09:25:19 PM

Quote from: tolbs17 on June 29, 2021, 08:56:21 PM
Chesapeake and Maryland House on I-95 in Maryland.

Aren't these technically on toll roads? I think I-95 is tolled except that you can easily avoid paying, except on the bridge.

Isn't the only toll on the bridge?

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 29, 2021, 09:28:45 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 29, 2021, 09:25:19 PM

Quote from: tolbs17 on June 29, 2021, 08:56:21 PM
Chesapeake and Maryland House on I-95 in Maryland.

Aren't these technically on toll roads? I think I-95 is tolled except that you can easily avoid paying, except on the bridge.

Isn't the only toll on the bridge?

Yes, but I believe that toll maintains the whole road.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 29, 2021, 09:28:45 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 29, 2021, 09:25:19 PM

Quote from: tolbs17 on June 29, 2021, 08:56:21 PM
Chesapeake and Maryland House on I-95 in Maryland.

Aren't these technically on toll roads? I think I-95 is tolled except that you can easily avoid paying, except on the bridge.

Isn't the only toll on the bridge?

Previously, there were tolls on every ramp, but they were removed a few decades ago (1980s maybe)?

Same with the Delaware Turnpike.  Only toll is at the DE/MD State line.

The Vince Lombardi Service Plaza is accessible on the NJ Turnpike without paying a toll.

There are numerous ways to get to many (if not all) of the service plazas on the Garden State Parkway, then exiting again, without paying a toll.

There's a small one near Exit 13 on I-87

Highway 401 in Ontario.

Quote from: tolbs17 on June 29, 2021, 08:56:21 PM
Chesapeake and Maryland House on I-95 in Maryland.

I wish I saw more of these in North Carolina.

Then do not forget the Baltimore Travel Center north of the Fort McHenry Tunnel on Free I-95.

Does the complex at Exit 68 of US-6 in MA count?  It may not have a direct off-ramp from the freeway, but it does have one direct on-ramp Westbound.

I believe the rule is freeways that were planned and constructed as interstates after 1960 can't have service plazas.

If a freeway is not conceived as an interstate after that year then said freeway could have a service plaza, toll or no toll. If it was planned as an interstate from the beginning and the process was 1960 onwards, it cannot have them. The Northwest Expwy (now JFK Mem Hwy) in MD is a strange bird. Was its process officially started before 1960? I know a turnpike was proposed before then (not necessarily by MD themselves) but I'm talking about when did the process actually get going?

Quote from: plain on June 30, 2021, 12:09:18 AM
I believe the rule is freeways that were planned and constructed as interstates after 1960 can't have service plazas.

If a freeway is not conceived as an interstate after that year then said freeway could have a service plaza, toll or no toll. If it was planned as an interstate from the beginning and the process was 1960 onwards, it cannot have them. The Northwest Expwy (now JFK Mem Hwy) in MD is a strange bird. Was its process officially started before 1960? I know a turnpike was proposed before then (not necessarily by MD themselves) but I'm talking about when did the process actually get going?

Yes, that's why I-95/MA 128 has service plazas.

Quote from: plain on June 30, 2021, 12:09:18 AM
I believe the rule is freeways that were planned and constructed as interstates after 1960 can't have service plazas.

It's not so much a rule as a law:

United States Code, Title 23, Chapter 1, Section 111, Subsection a:

Quote
All agreements between the Secretary and the State transportation department for the construction of projects on the Interstate System shall contain a clause providing that the State will not add any points of access to, or exit from, the project in addition to those approved by the Secretary in the plans for such project, without the prior approval of the Secretary. Such agreements shall also contain a clause providing that the State will not permit automotive service stations or other commercial establishments for serving motor vehicle users to be constructed or located on the rights-of-way of the Interstate System and will not change the boundary of any right-of-way on the Interstate System to accommodate construction of, or afford access to, an automotive service station or other commercial establishment. Such agreements may, however, authorize a State or political subdivision thereof to use or permit the use of the airspace above and below the established grade line of the highway pavement for such purposes as will not impair the full use and safety of the highway, as will not require or permit vehicular access to such space directly from such established grade line of the highway, or otherwise interfere in any way with the free flow of traffic on the Interstate System. Nothing in this section, or in any agreement entered into under this section, shall require the discontinuance, obstruction, or removal of any establishment for serving motor vehicle users on any highway which has been, or is hereafter, designated as a highway or route on the Interstate System (1) if such establishment (A) was in existence before January 1, 1960, (B) is owned by a State, and (C) is operated through concessionaries or otherwise, and (2) if all access to, and exits from, such establishment conform to the standards established for such a highway under this title.

Quote from: SkyPesos on June 29, 2021, 09:03:26 PM
WK Pkwy just west of the I-165 interchange (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.3755792,-86.8277448,3a,68.4y,17.78h,91.45t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLxnTZ00FdedQ5SCYx-YlLA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

True, but only because it formerly was a toll highway.

It wasn't a full-fledged service area, but when we drove down I-395 in Connecticut in 2004, I remember seeing a rest area with a Mobil gas station in it. Don't know if it's still there or not.

Quote from: KCRoadFan on June 30, 2021, 01:41:47 AM
It wasn't a full-fledged service area, but when we drove down I-395 in Connecticut in 2004, I remember seeing a rest area with a Mobil gas station in it. Don't know if it's still there or not.

There are three of them, and they're all active.

The Connecticut Turnpike was originally a toll road.

Quote from: plain on June 30, 2021, 12:09:18 AM
The Northeast Expwy (now JFK Mem Hwy) in MD is a strange bird. Was its process officially started before 1960? I know a turnpike was proposed before then (not necessarily by MD themselves) but I'm talking about when did the process actually get going?

MDTA's website for the JFK Highway states that planning began in 1955 (construction January 1962-November 1963), so based on that the process did indeed start before 1960.  However unlike other toll roads such as the PA Turnpike that became interstates later, I believe the Northeastern Expwy was always intended to be I-95.

Regardless, the Maryland House & Chesapeake House are the obvious remaining clues that the entire JFK Highway is technically the tolled facility, as opposed to the Tydings Bridge just being a toll bridge surrounded by freeway (which is what I initially thought as a kid the first time we took a roadtrip that direction).

If you count the huge truck stop on I-80 in Walcott IA. It's basically like a tollway service plaza only bigger. I know Canada has several along ON-401.

Quote from: dvferyance on June 30, 2021, 11:26:01 AM
If you count the huge truck stop on I-80 in Walcott IA. It's basically like a tollway service plaza only bigger.

You get off the freeway at an exit.  It's not a service plaza.  It may serve a similar purpose, but it is not exclusive to vehicles on I-80.

QuoteI know Canada has several along ON-401.

Yes, these are service plazas, and have been noted above.

Quote from: GaryV on June 30, 2021, 11:30:05 AM

Quote from: dvferyance on June 30, 2021, 11:26:01 AM
If you count the huge truck stop on I-80 in Walcott IA. It's basically like a tollway service plaza only bigger.

You get off the freeway at an exit.  It's not a service plaza.  It may serve a similar purpose, but it is not exclusive to vehicles on I-80.

....

While that one is not a service plaza in the sense referred to in this thread, the mere fact that you have to exit the highway to access a facility is not in and of itself necessarily disqualifying. The West Gardiner Service Plaza on the Maine Turnpike (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.211109,-69.8300907,15.75z) requires exiting the Turnpike (northbound via Exit 102; southbound by taking Exit 103 to I-295, then using Exit 51 on I-295), and it's accessible by traffic on the surface road or traffic using I-295 northbound, but there's no dispute that it's a service plaza that is there primarily because of the tolled highway nearby (E-ZPass users get some sort of break on the toll as long as they re-enter the Turnpike within a certain amount of time)–if you click into Street View, you can see the sign saying "Maine Turnpike West Gardiner Service Plaza."

I can think of various rest areas (not service areas) in other places that require exiting the highway and that are accessible to surface road traffic. A rest area on I-75 near Fort Myers (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lee+County+Rest+Area/@26.5482308,-81.7899075,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88db14b061766a89:0x72661bfbdff7e10e!8m2!3d26.5495973!4d-81.792181) requires exiting onto Daniels Parkway. A rest area on I-40 in Duplin County, North Carolina (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Rest+Area+-+Duplin+County+I-40/@34.9973931,-78.1378753,15.25z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89abe8188e481ae9:0x5882c261de17634d!8m2!3d34.9897118!4d-78.1327951), is located in the median but requires exiting the highway and using a surface street to access the facility.

^ The DE-1 rest area at Smyrna is located just off an exit north of town on US-13, as opposed to being on the mainline. US-13 traffic can access it.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 12:25:38 AM

Quote from: plain on June 30, 2021, 12:09:18 AM
I believe the rule is freeways that were planned and constructed as interstates after 1960 can't have service plazas.

It's not so much a rule as a law:

United States Code, Title 23, Chapter 1, Section 111, Subsection a:

Quote
All agreements between the Secretary and the State transportation department for the construction of projects on the Interstate System shall contain a clause providing that the State will not add any points of access to, or exit from, the project in addition to those approved by the Secretary in the plans for such project, without the prior approval of the Secretary. Such agreements shall also contain a clause providing that the State will not permit automotive service stations or other commercial establishments for serving motor vehicle users to be constructed or located on the rights-of-way of the Interstate System and will not change the boundary of any right-of-way on the Interstate System to accommodate construction of, or afford access to, an automotive service station or other commercial establishment. Such agreements may, however, authorize a State or political subdivision thereof to use or permit the use of the airspace above and below the established grade line of the highway pavement for such purposes as will not impair the full use and safety of the highway, as will not require or permit vehicular access to such space directly from such established grade line of the highway, or otherwise interfere in any way with the free flow of traffic on the Interstate System. Nothing in this section, or in any agreement entered into under this section, shall require the discontinuance, obstruction, or removal of any establishment for serving motor vehicle users on any highway which has been, or is hereafter, designated as a highway or route on the Interstate System (1) if such establishment (A) was in existence before January 1, 1960, (B) is owned by a State, and (C) is operated through concessionaries or otherwise, and (2) if all access to, and exits from, such establishment conform to the standards established for such a highway under this title.

And an unfortunate one at that, anyone who has driven the toll roads much knows that the one real advantage is the service plazas.
Had we not done what we normally do and shot ourselves in the face, we could have had an interstate network with full service plazas everywhere like the toll roads, and likely with some rent arrangement that would have provided additional funds for the upkeep of the highways themselves. Instead of being drains on state budgets, rest areas could have been contributors.

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 30, 2021, 12:09:05 PM
I can think of various rest areas (not service areas) in other places that require exiting the highway and that are accessible to surface road traffic. A rest area on I-75 near Fort Myers (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Lee+County+Rest+Area/@26.5482308,-81.7899075,17z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88db14b061766a89:0x72661bfbdff7e10e!8m2!3d26.5495973!4d-81.792181) requires exiting onto Daniels Parkway. A rest area on I-40 in Duplin County, North Carolina (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Rest+Area+-+Duplin+County+I-40/@34.9973931,-78.1378753,15.25z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89abe8188e481ae9:0x5882c261de17634d!8m2!3d34.9897118!4d-78.1327951), is located in the median but requires exiting the highway and using a surface street to access the facility.

Quote from: sprjus4 on June 30, 2021, 12:14:35 PM
^ The DE-1 rest area at Smyrna is located just off an exit north of town on US-13, as opposed to being on the mainline. US-13 traffic can access it.

The new Western New York Welcome Center is off I-190 exit 19 on Grand Island. (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0196603,-78.9727228,711m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e4?hl=en)

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 30, 2021, 12:09:05 PM
(E-ZPass users get some sort of break on the toll as long as they re-enter the Turnpike within a certain amount of time)

My understanding is it removes the penalty that would otherwise cause I-95 thru traffic stopping at the service plaza to effectively "double-pay" at the I-295 toll plaza (when they'll already be paying at the mainline toll plaza a couple miles south of exit 102).  There's also signs up (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.1895134,-69.8504884,3a,21.2y,64.08h,88.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgS6IIFyc_ImHAGdPl8sjbw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m2!1e4!1e1?hl=en) approaching both toll plazas (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.2213247,-69.8226575,3a,45.8y,222.84h,90.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQnIoNSzN4l_3q0uEchkgAg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m2!1e1!1e4?hl=en) instructing cash-payers to get a receipt if stopping at the service plaza.

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 12:26:36 PM


And an unfortunate one at that, anyone who has driven the toll roads much knows that the one real advantage is the service plazas.
Had we not done what we normally do and shot ourselves in the face, we could have had an interstate network with full service plazas everywhere like the toll roads, and likely with some rent arrangement that would have provided additional funds for the upkeep of the highways themselves. Instead of being drains on state budgets, rest areas could have been contributors.

I don't consider them to be an advantage for travelers. In my experience, gas prices at the service areas are higher than in private establishments. The restaurants often have limited menus and don't take part in lots of franchise promotions such as sales, value menus, coupons, and in some cases, the prices are higher, too, than they would be at the same brand of restaurant located off of the freeway exits. They also don't have the convenience of drive-thrus. I'm not sure how the franchisees handle apps, now. I know that at most McDonald's locations, you can order in the app, park in the parking lot, and they'll bring your food out to you. Other restaurants offer the same feature.

As for the WK Parkway's service area, that route was never an interstate. And the WK Parkway was originally a 140-mile slog through mostly rural areas, with few services and widely-spaced exits. The service plaza there made sense, and really still does despite more exits being built and more services popping up at Leitchfield, Beaver Dam, Central City, and Princeton. Hopefully, when that segment becomes an interstate -- and given Kentucky's penchant for getting the designation on its former toll roads, it's bound to happen -- the plaza will be grandfathered in.

Quote from: hbelkins on June 30, 2021, 12:46:26 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 12:26:36 PM


And an unfortunate one at that, anyone who has driven the toll roads much knows that the one real advantage is the service plazas.
Had we not done what we normally do and shot ourselves in the face, we could have had an interstate network with full service plazas everywhere like the toll roads, and likely with some rent arrangement that would have provided additional funds for the upkeep of the highways themselves. Instead of being drains on state budgets, rest areas could have been contributors.

I don't consider them to be an advantage for travelers. In my experience, gas prices at the service areas are higher than in private establishments. The restaurants often have limited menus and don't take part in lots of franchise promotions such as sales, value menus, coupons, and in some cases, the prices are higher, too, than they would be at the same brand of restaurant located off of the freeway exits. They also don't have the convenience of drive-thrus. I'm not sure how the franchisees handle apps, now. I know that at most McDonald's locations, you can order in the app, park in the parking lot, and they'll bring your food out to you. Other restaurants offer the same feature.

As for the WK Parkway's service area, that route was never an interstate. And the WK Parkway was originally a 140-mile slog through mostly rural areas, with few services and widely-spaced exits. The service plaza there made sense, and really still does despite more exits being built and more services popping up at Leitchfield, Beaver Dam, Central City, and Princeton. Hopefully, when that segment becomes an interstate -- and given Kentucky's penchant for getting the designation on its former toll roads, it's bound to happen -- the plaza will be grandfathered in.

Didn't Congress pass a bill to make it I-369 or something?

Quote from: hbelkins on June 30, 2021, 12:46:26 PM

I don't consider them to be an advantage for travelers. In my experience, gas prices at the service areas are higher than in private establishments. The restaurants often have limited menus and don't take part in lots of franchise promotions such as sales, value menus, coupons, and in some cases, the prices are higher, too, than they would be at the same brand of restaurant located off of the freeway exits. They also don't have the convenience of drive-thrus. I'm not sure how the franchisees handle apps, now. I know that at most McDonald's locations, you can order in the app, park in the parking lot, and they'll bring your food out to you. Other restaurants offer the same feature.

That is true. I remember once when travelling in the US, and we stopped on a NY Thruway Service Plaza McDonald's, we discovered that the Iced Coffee there is like $2 more expensive than at a regular McDonald's.

As for gas prices, ONRoute (service plazas on Highway 401 and 400) gas stations here in Ontario are often like 10-20 cents more expensive per litre than a regular gas station.

Some ONRoute restaurants do have a drive-thru though.

Quote from: hbelkins on June 30, 2021, 12:46:26 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 12:26:36 PM


And an unfortunate one at that, anyone who has driven the toll roads much knows that the one real advantage is the service plazas.
Had we not done what we normally do and shot ourselves in the face, we could have had an interstate network with full service plazas everywhere like the toll roads, and likely with some rent arrangement that would have provided additional funds for the upkeep of the highways themselves. Instead of being drains on state budgets, rest areas could have been contributors.

I don't consider them to be an advantage for travelers. In my experience, gas prices at the service areas are higher than in private establishments. The restaurants often have limited menus and don't take part in lots of franchise promotions such as sales, value menus, coupons, and in some cases, the prices are higher, too, than they would be at the same brand of restaurant located off of the freeway exits. They also don't have the convenience of drive-thrus. I'm not sure how the franchisees handle apps, now. I know that at most McDonald's locations, you can order in the app, park in the parking lot, and they'll bring your food out to you. Other restaurants offer the same feature.

As for the WK Parkway's service area, that route was never an interstate. And the WK Parkway was originally a 140-mile slog through mostly rural areas, with few services and widely-spaced exits. The service plaza there made sense, and really still does despite more exits being built and more services popping up at Leitchfield, Beaver Dam, Central City, and Princeton. Hopefully, when that segment becomes an interstate -- and given Kentucky's penchant for getting the designation on its former toll roads, it's bound to happen -- the plaza will be grandfathered in.

You may not consider them an advantage, but many do.
Fuel prices are higher because reservation prices are higher ie. customers are willing to spend more for the convenience of getting fuel right on the route because it is easy and they are often not familiar with the area. Clearly that is an advantage to them.
Restaurants having "limited menus" and not accepting coupons is really not a problem for most customers. People just want something fast and easy to fill the hole, no one is stopping for a gourmet meal at the McDonald's no matter how big the damn menu is or how many coupons they will accept. And again, prices being higher reflects reservation prices being higher, because people are willing to pay for that convenience.
The lack of a drive through is really not a problem for most long haul travelers, the kind that benefit most from service plazas. There is (thankfully) no such thing as a drive through bathroom, so provided so much as one person in the car needs that particular amenity you have to get out anyway. I also prefer self serve soda fountains rather than having the drive through kid give me 3/4 cup of ice, but that is maybe just me. For similar reasons being able to order from the parking lot is frankly stupid in the context of a service plaza, getting out to stretch your legs and grab food is a benefit, not a burden.
If you want to get off an exit and fight surface street traffic so you can go through a regular McDonald's drive through and save 50 cents on a Mcdouble with last Sunday's coupon, you are more than welcome to. But many travelers would prefer the service plaza model.

Quote from: andrepoiy on June 30, 2021, 01:00:16 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on June 30, 2021, 12:46:26 PM

I don't consider them to be an advantage for travelers. In my experience, gas prices at the service areas are higher than in private establishments. The restaurants often have limited menus and don't take part in lots of franchise promotions such as sales, value menus, coupons, and in some cases, the prices are higher, too, than they would be at the same brand of restaurant located off of the freeway exits. They also don't have the convenience of drive-thrus. I'm not sure how the franchisees handle apps, now. I know that at most McDonald's locations, you can order in the app, park in the parking lot, and they'll bring your food out to you. Other restaurants offer the same feature.

That is true. I remember once when travelling in the US, and we stopped on a NY Thruway Service Plaza McDonald's, we discovered that the Iced Coffee there is like $2 more expensive than at a regular McDonald's.

As for gas prices, ONRoute (service plazas on Highway 401 and 400) gas stations here in Ontario are often like 10-20 cents more expensive per litre than a regular gas station.

Some ONRoute restaurants do have a drive-thru though.

It is true, and that proves my point that service plazas are a benefit to the traveling public.

Quote from: hbelkins on June 30, 2021, 12:46:26 PM
They also don't have the convenience of drive-thrus.

Quote from: andrepoiy on June 30, 2021, 01:00:16 PM
Some ONRoute restaurants do have a drive-thru though.

I recall at least one of the MassPike service plazas having a drive-thru for McDonald's.

Meanwhile, the Delaware House has a standalone Starbucks (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6631942,-75.6894369,3a,75y,193.33h,88.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slMI0WIzZ0b9pfunxHf-A-w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m2!1e1!1e4?hl=en) (which I think was added sometime after the plaza reconstruction) across the parking lot from the main building, and it has a drive-thru.

But I-95/Conn Tpk. at Milford takes the cake here - side-by-side drive thru's for McDonald's & Dunkin (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.2470647,-73.0099073,3a,43y,273.13h,81.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxOSHWTTSiTxQrs6RD-TPiw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m2!1e1!1e4?hl=en) (with a 3rd lane currently unused).

(Point being, drive-thrus do seem to be slowly finding their way into busier service plazas.)

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 12:26:36 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 12:25:38 AM

Quote from: plain on June 30, 2021, 12:09:18 AM
I believe the rule is freeways that were planned and constructed as interstates after 1960 can't have service plazas.

It's not so much a rule as a law:

United States Code, Title 23, Chapter 1, Section 111, Subsection a:

And an unfortunate one at that, anyone who has driven the toll roads much knows that the one real advantage is the service plazas.

I can't say that I agree. The current system works well and allows for competition. At the very least, having to exit the Interstate to get gas is hardly shooting ourselves in the foot.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 01:35:07 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 12:26:36 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 12:25:38 AM

Quote from: plain on June 30, 2021, 12:09:18 AM
I believe the rule is freeways that were planned and constructed as interstates after 1960 can't have service plazas.

It's not so much a rule as a law:

United States Code, Title 23, Chapter 1, Section 111, Subsection a:

And an unfortunate one at that, anyone who has driven the toll roads much knows that the one real advantage is the service plazas.

I can't say that I agree. The current system works well and allows for competition. At the very least, having to exit the Interstate to get gas is hardly shooting ourselves in the foot.

How would service plazas destroy the competition? It is still private businesses in the service plaza.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:37:45 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 01:35:07 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 12:26:36 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 12:25:38 AM

Quote from: plain on June 30, 2021, 12:09:18 AM
I believe the rule is freeways that were planned and constructed as interstates after 1960 can't have service plazas.

It's not so much a rule as a law:

United States Code, Title 23, Chapter 1, Section 111, Subsection a:

And an unfortunate one at that, anyone who has driven the toll roads much knows that the one real advantage is the service plazas.

I can't say that I agree. The current system works well and allows for competition. At the very least, having to exit the Interstate to get gas is hardly shooting ourselves in the foot.

How would service plazas destroy the competition? It is still private businesses in the service plaza.

It's pretty much unheard of to have both, say, Shell and Mobil at a service plaza, but it's essentially par for the course at exits.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 01:35:07 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 12:26:36 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 12:25:38 AM

Quote from: plain on June 30, 2021, 12:09:18 AM
I believe the rule is freeways that were planned and constructed as interstates after 1960 can't have service plazas.

It's not so much a rule as a law:

United States Code, Title 23, Chapter 1, Section 111, Subsection a:

And an unfortunate one at that, anyone who has driven the toll roads much knows that the one real advantage is the service plazas.

I can't say that I agree. The current system works well and allows for competition. I mean, having to exit the Interstate to get gas is hardly shooting ourselves in the foot.

The current system does not work well, travelers are forced off the freeway to do things that they could easily do on the freeway purely because of lawsuits filed by people now long dead. Its an inconvenience that serves no purpose at all.
That the current system allows for any more or less competition than that one would is highly dubious. How would it not be "allowing for competition" to have service plazas on the highways that lease their facilities to the highest bidder in a competitive bid every 3 years or so? You have competition for the real estate (which is not significantly different from the competition for real estate near a desirable exit now) and you would still have the competition from off highway businesses (which would be a good deal higher off the toll roads as exits tend to be more plentiful). If anything there would be more competition and certainly more traveler choices.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 01:37:45 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 01:35:07 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 12:26:36 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 12:25:38 AM

Quote from: plain on June 30, 2021, 12:09:18 AM
I believe the rule is freeways that were planned and constructed as interstates after 1960 can't have service plazas.

It's not so much a rule as a law:

United States Code, Title 23, Chapter 1, Section 111, Subsection a:

And an unfortunate one at that, anyone who has driven the toll roads much knows that the one real advantage is the service plazas.

I can't say that I agree. The current system works well and allows for competition. At the very least, having to exit the Interstate to get gas is hardly shooting ourselves in the foot.

How would service plazas destroy the competition? It is still private businesses in the service plaza.

And, as noted upthread, the higher food/fuel prices typically found in service plazas can also serve to maintain competition (those who prefer convenience will stop there, those who prefer lower prices will exit).

Case in point:  sometimes I'll stop at the Maryland or Chesapeake Houses to fuel up when I just want to get home already, other times I'll get off at MD exit 109/DE exit 1 (and then combine getting gas with shunpiking the Delaware Turnpike :D)

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 01:40:28 PM
It's pretty much unheard of to have both, say, Shell and Mobil at a service plaza, but it's essentially par for the course at exits.

Prior to reconstruction, both the Maryland & Chesapeake Houses had Exxon & Sunoco at opposite ends of the plaza (they both only have Sunoco now - speaking of, anyone notice how Sunoco seems to be the gas provider at a high percentage of northeast service plazas?)

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 01:40:41 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 01:35:07 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 12:26:36 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 12:25:38 AM

Quote from: plain on June 30, 2021, 12:09:18 AM
I believe the rule is freeways that were planned and constructed as interstates after 1960 can't have service plazas.

It's not so much a rule as a law:

United States Code, Title 23, Chapter 1, Section 111, Subsection a:

And an unfortunate one at that, anyone who has driven the toll roads much knows that the one real advantage is the service plazas.

I can't say that I agree. The current system works well and allows for competition. I mean, having to exit the Interstate to get gas is hardly shooting ourselves in the foot.

The current system does not work well, travelers are forced off the freeway to do things that they could easily do on the freeway

Just because another system might work better doesn't mean that the current one doesn't work well. Having to get off the highway to get gas is simply not a problem of any significance whatsoever.

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 01:40:41 PM
How would it not be "allowing for competition" to have service plazas on the highways that lease their facilities to the highest bidder in a competitive bid every 3 years or so?

First, I don't think concession contracts are renegotiated anywhere near that often, and second, even if they were, that doesn't allow for competition for the buyer at the point of sale, which is the important part. That reservation pricing you pointed out is a clear sign that the motorist is losing out. And so, whatever advantages service plazas may have, they are not enough given that the alternative is not problematic in the slightest.

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 02:04:51 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 01:40:41 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 01:35:07 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 12:26:36 PM

Quote from: CtrlAltDel on June 30, 2021, 12:25:38 AM

Quote from: plain on June 30, 2021, 12:09:18 AM
I believe the rule is freeways that were planned and constructed as interstates after 1960 can't have service plazas.

It's not so much a rule as a law:

United States Code, Title 23, Chapter 1, Section 111, Subsection a:

And an unfortunate one at that, anyone who has driven the toll roads much knows that the one real advantage is the service plazas.

I can't say that I agree. The current system works well and allows for competition. I mean, having to exit the Interstate to get gas is hardly shooting ourselves in the foot.

The current system does not work well, travelers are forced off the freeway to do things that they could easily do on the freeway

Just because another system might work better doesn't mean that the current one doesn't work well. Having to get off the highway to get gas is simply not a problem of any significance whatsoever.

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 01:40:41 PM
How would it not be "allowing for competition" to have service plazas on the highways that lease their facilities to the highest bidder in a competitive bid every 3 years or so?

First, I don't think concession contracts are renegotiated anywhere near that often, and second, even if they were, that doesn't allow for competition for the buyer at the point of sale, which is the important part. That reservation pricing you pointed out is a clear sign that the motorist is losing out. And so, whatever advantages service plazas may have, they are not enough given that the alternative is not problematic in the slightest.

The current one does not work well, its a pain. And even then the standard should not be acceptable mediocrity because we are stuck with an outdated law from the 60's.
I could care less how it is done now, the way it should be done as part of implementing this is with an auction every 3 years (perhaps on a rotation so the disruption is minimal), same way the government auctions the airwaves. The way it is done now is of zero consequence because the entire point is that we should be doing things differently.

"doesn't allow for competition for the buyer at the point of sale, which is the important part" that is economic nonsense. "Competition at the point of sale" does not exist in most situations if you define it that way. There is no "competition at the point of sale" when you are in line at McDonald's, you can't order a Whopper at that point, or a Frosty, or a roast beef sandwich. But economists know that is irrelevant since if you wanted any of those things you would have entered another establishment. Competition at the point of sale is entirely irrelevant. The same is true for the service plazas, the motorist is free to get off at an exit if they don't like what is offered at the service plazas, I have done this on the toll roads before, as have millions of other people. Offering a more convenient option does not eliminate competition.

"And so, whatever advantages service plazas may have, they are not enough given that the alternative is not problematic in the slightest"
The alternative is problematic, to say it is not is simply false. It is certainly less convenient to exit for services than have them provided in a service plaza. But more importantly, there are no meaningful disadvantages so there is no reason not to do this. The only reason it was not done in the first place (it was part of many plans) was because lawsuits and lobbying from special interest groups enacted a law to their benefit at the expense of everyone else.
The advantages are clear

• More convenient
• More choices for motorists
• Revenue positive for the state rather than revenue negative like a normal rest area
• Arguably safer than a normal rest area due to the presence of businesses and others

We have nothing to loose and a fair bit to gain, its a pretty clear choice.

HighwayStar doesn't seem to understand the difference between opinion and fact, a failing he has in common with certain other forum members who think that because their opinion might have a kernel of truth, nobody can validly challenge it.

Except on closed-system toll roads, it's not inconvenient at all to exit for services, in my opinion, and in some cases I believe it can be more convenient to exit due to a lower concentration of traffic (vehicular and pedestrian) because not everyone is concentrated in a single, sometimes very large, sometimes poorly laid-out, parking area (one example that comes to mind is how on Florida's Turnpike bushes and palm trees sometimes obstruct the view of other service area traffic). You often have a much shorter walk to the restaurant or other business when you exit the highway than you do at a large, very busy service area.

With that said, I certainly know some people who prefer service areas. A female colleague of mine who grew up in northern Indiana says she always opts for the Pennsylvania/Ohio Turnpike route over other options like US-30 across Ohio precisely because it's what she calls "self-contained"–she knows there are reliable places to stop that will be reasonably busy so she need not be concerned about being isolated. As a middle-aged male I can't necessarily relate to how a younger single woman feels about that sort of issue, but I recognize the legitimacy of her concern even if I think it's a shame she denies herself the chance to see other routes. In other words, my opinion that finding new routes is a more important concern than using a road with service areas doesn't invalidate her opinion to the contrary.

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 30, 2021, 02:41:03 PM
HighwayStar doesn't seem to understand the difference between opinion and fact, a failing he has in common with certain other forum members who think that because their opinion might have a kernel of truth, nobody can validly challenge it.

Except on closed-system toll roads, it's not inconvenient at all to exit for services, in my opinion, and in some cases I believe it can be more convenient to exit due to a lower concentration of traffic (vehicular and pedestrian) because not everyone is concentrated in a single, sometimes very large, sometimes poorly laid-out, parking area (one example that comes to mind is how on Florida's Turnpike bushes and palm trees sometimes obstruct the view of other service area traffic). You often have a much shorter walk to the restaurant or other business when you exit the highway than you do at a large, very busy service area.

With that said, I certainly know some people who prefer service areas. A female colleague of mine who grew up in northern Indiana says she always opts for the Pennsylvania/Ohio Turnpike route over other options like US-30 across Ohio precisely because it's what she calls "self-contained"–she knows there are reliable places to stop that will be reasonably busy so she need not be concerned about being isolated. As a middle-aged male I can't necessarily relate to how a younger single woman feels about that sort of issue, but I recognize the legitimacy of her concern even if I think it's a shame she denies herself the chance to see other routes. In other words, my opinion that finding new routes is a more important concern than using a road with service areas doesn't invalidate her opinion to the contrary.

I am well aware of the difference, there is no call for accusations to the contrary, and sorry but it is an objective fact that getting off the freeway is less convenient than a service plaza.

Where is the proof of that statement? The same thing some have already complained about, prices. The first rule of microeconomics is that prices are set by what a buyer will pay. Prices can only be as high as reservation prices warrant. So when we have a higher price for both food and gasoline at a service plaza versus the off highway options nearby the only logical conclusion is that reservation prices are higher for the food and gasoline at the service plaza, which since fast food and especially gasoline are both commodity goods, we must attribute to the convenience/experience of the service plaza as the factor at play. That is what the data tells me, it has nothing to do with my opinion or yours for that matter, but with the real world observed prices which everyone here seems to agree are higher.
Notice that this does not require that every consumer think they are more convenient, some apparently don't, but enough do that the reservation prices taken as a whole are higher.
Also note that this argument has nothing to do with costs, a mistake people frequently make in situations such as this. Even if we assume the cost of the service plaza goods is higher, perhaps due to contracts etc. that cost has nothing to do with the prices except to set a floor below which they cannot fall in the long run. Only the consumer reservation prices can can dictate the equilibrium price, and so if the costs are identical or higher for service areas the conclusion is the same, reservation prices must be higher for their goods and services.
Not a matter of opinion, only a matter of economics and data.

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 03:09:26 PM
I am well aware of the difference, there is no call for accusations to the contrary, and sorry but it is an objective fact that getting off the freeway is less convenient than a service plaza.

....

It is not a "fact" at all other than in your opinion (that is, it's your opinion that it is a fact because you don't know what the difference between the two is). I'm not talking about your discussion about prices. I don't give a rat's arse about where something is cheaper or more expensive. I gave other reasons why I do not consider getting off the highway to be less convenient than stopping at a service plaza (assuming, of course, the services are right near the exit) and you, naturally, ignored all of them in favor of repeating your little tirade. (The fact that a lot of people stop at the service areas doesn't prove that they are more or less convenient–it just proves that some people prefer to stop there.)

It's a classic example of what I said about certain posters on here who know one or two things about an issue, consider themselves experts on a topic, and refuse to recognize the validity of any position that disagrees with their own.

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 30, 2021, 03:20:02 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 03:09:26 PM
I am well aware of the difference, there is no call for accusations to the contrary, and sorry but it is an objective fact that getting off the freeway is less convenient than a service plaza.

....

It is not a "fact" at all other than in your opinion (that is, it's your opinion that it is a fact because you don't know what the difference between the two is). I'm not talking about your discussion about prices. I don't give a rat's arse about where something is cheaper or more expensive. I gave other reasons why I do not consider getting off the highway to be less convenient than stopping at a service plaza (assuming, of course, the services are right near the exit) and you, naturally, ignored all of them in favor of repeating your little tirade. (The fact that a lot of people stop at the service areas doesn't prove that they are more or less convenient–it just proves that some people prefer to stop there.)

It's a classic example of what I said about certain posters on here who know one or two things about an issue, consider themselves experts on a topic, and refuse to recognize the validity of any position that disagrees with their own.

Did you even read what I wrote? I don't even attempt to explain exactly why someone considers it more convenient, because its almost beside the point. The fact is that the prices prove people do consider it more convenient.  :spin:

Me:

(https://i.imgur.com/ZMA1gcu.gif)

Why did my thread turn into this

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 04:19:20 PM
Why did my thread turn into this

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT0Z6EXHJss0XefoWSC1d5McHyyGBPM9YRGcg&usqp=CAU) (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRVy3btg4Wd-P2NgXDpitBE7YRl0fAWhUyzpQ&usqp=CAU)

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 30, 2021, 02:41:03 PM
a kernel of truth

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/5gw0VWGbgNm8w/giphy.gif)

Quote from: jmacswimmer on June 30, 2021, 04:26:16 PM

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on June 30, 2021, 04:19:20 PM
Why did my thread turn into this

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT0Z6EXHJss0XefoWSC1d5McHyyGBPM9YRGcg&usqp=CAU) (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRVy3btg4Wd-P2NgXDpitBE7YRl0fAWhUyzpQ&usqp=CAU)

Quote from: 1995hoo on June 30, 2021, 02:41:03 PM
a kernel of truth

(https://media1.giphy.com/media/5gw0VWGbgNm8w/giphy.gif)

Don't blame me, I simply pointed out that they were a nice feature and as usual haters gonna hate.

Quote from: vdeane on June 30, 2021, 12:56:52 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on June 30, 2021, 12:46:26 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 12:26:36 PM


And an unfortunate one at that, anyone who has driven the toll roads much knows that the one real advantage is the service plazas.
Had we not done what we normally do and shot ourselves in the face, we could have had an interstate network with full service plazas everywhere like the toll roads, and likely with some rent arrangement that would have provided additional funds for the upkeep of the highways themselves. Instead of being drains on state budgets, rest areas could have been contributors.

I don't consider them to be an advantage for travelers. In my experience, gas prices at the service areas are higher than in private establishments. The restaurants often have limited menus and don't take part in lots of franchise promotions such as sales, value menus, coupons, and in some cases, the prices are higher, too, than they would be at the same brand of restaurant located off of the freeway exits. They also don't have the convenience of drive-thrus. I'm not sure how the franchisees handle apps, now. I know that at most McDonald's locations, you can order in the app, park in the parking lot, and they'll bring your food out to you. Other restaurants offer the same feature.

As for the WK Parkway's service area, that route was never an interstate. And the WK Parkway was originally a 140-mile slog through mostly rural areas, with few services and widely-spaced exits. The service plaza there made sense, and really still does despite more exits being built and more services popping up at Leitchfield, Beaver Dam, Central City, and Princeton. Hopefully, when that segment becomes an interstate -- and given Kentucky's penchant for getting the designation on its former toll roads, it's bound to happen -- the plaza will be grandfathered in.

Didn't Congress pass a bill to make it I-369 or something?

Upon further review, I think you're right. I believe they did get a definite future interstate designation for the WK between the Pennyrile and the Natcher. (I still have trouble with calling the northern section of the Pennyrile 69 and the Natcher 165.) And the service plaza is just to the west of the Natcher interchange. I may have even expressed a thought about whether or not the service plaza would be grandfathered in.

If they're going to turn that segment of the WK into an interstate, it's illogical for the whole thing to I-65 not to be so designated.

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 01:05:47 PMPeople just want something fast and easy to fill the hole

I thought that was one of the reasons they're closing rest areas.  :bigass:

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 05:56:07 PM
Don't blame me, I simply pointed out that they were a nice feature and as usual haters gonna hate.

Not blaming anyone, I too think service plazas are a nice feature. I was just answering RGT's question, for better or for worse :spin:

I also enjoy service plazas, they are a nice feature on roads.

I would say that yes, service areas are more convenient than getting off the highway.  Getting off the highway involves dealing with turns and traffic lights and the drive time itself.  In a suburban area (where most of the both good and highway accessible eats are), that can easily add an additional 5-10 minutes, more if the lunch/bathroom stop is off a different exit than the gas stop.  I've had trips where my budgeted 30 minutes for lunch/gas got blown up to over 45 factoring all that in.  At a service area, though, it's easy off, easy on.

And prices absolutely are relevant to that question.  If given two otherwise identical options, people are going to go with the cheaper one.  Therefore, the fact that these places can not only survive but thrive with higher prices means that they are not otherwise identical to businesses off the interstate.  Clearly people get something that is worth paying the higher price.  Gee, I wonder what that could be... :hmmm:

Quote from: hbelkins on June 30, 2021, 05:56:42 PM

Quote from: vdeane on June 30, 2021, 12:56:52 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on June 30, 2021, 12:46:26 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 12:26:36 PM


And an unfortunate one at that, anyone who has driven the toll roads much knows that the one real advantage is the service plazas.
Had we not done what we normally do and shot ourselves in the face, we could have had an interstate network with full service plazas everywhere like the toll roads, and likely with some rent arrangement that would have provided additional funds for the upkeep of the highways themselves. Instead of being drains on state budgets, rest areas could have been contributors.

I don't consider them to be an advantage for travelers. In my experience, gas prices at the service areas are higher than in private establishments. The restaurants often have limited menus and don't take part in lots of franchise promotions such as sales, value menus, coupons, and in some cases, the prices are higher, too, than they would be at the same brand of restaurant located off of the freeway exits. They also don't have the convenience of drive-thrus. I'm not sure how the franchisees handle apps, now. I know that at most McDonald's locations, you can order in the app, park in the parking lot, and they'll bring your food out to you. Other restaurants offer the same feature.

As for the WK Parkway's service area, that route was never an interstate. And the WK Parkway was originally a 140-mile slog through mostly rural areas, with few services and widely-spaced exits. The service plaza there made sense, and really still does despite more exits being built and more services popping up at Leitchfield, Beaver Dam, Central City, and Princeton. Hopefully, when that segment becomes an interstate -- and given Kentucky's penchant for getting the designation on its former toll roads, it's bound to happen -- the plaza will be grandfathered in.

Didn't Congress pass a bill to make it I-369 or something?

Upon further review, I think you're right. I believe they did get a definite future interstate designation for the WK between the Pennyrile and the Natcher. (I still have trouble with calling the northern section of the Pennyrile 69 and the Natcher 165.) And the service plaza is just to the west of the Natcher interchange. I may have even expressed a thought about whether or not the service plaza would be grandfathered in.

If they're going to turn that segment of the WK into an interstate, it's illogical for the whole thing to I-65 not to be so designated.

I think the 369 designation is half assed for a number for the rest of the WK Pkwy. Either combine it with the Bluegrass and call it I-54, 56 or 58, or if you want to leave the Bluegrass out, extend I-71 down the WK. KY is increasingly becoming like NC when it comes to 3di numbers now imo.

I'll also add that yes, service plazas are more convenient and easier to access than getting off the freeway to access gas, food, etc.

Quote from: SkyPesos on June 30, 2021, 09:35:23 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on June 30, 2021, 05:56:42 PM

Quote from: vdeane on June 30, 2021, 12:56:52 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on June 30, 2021, 12:46:26 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on June 30, 2021, 12:26:36 PM


And an unfortunate one at that, anyone who has driven the toll roads much knows that the one real advantage is the service plazas.
Had we not done what we normally do and shot ourselves in the face, we could have had an interstate network with full service plazas everywhere like the toll roads, and likely with some rent arrangement that would have provided additional funds for the upkeep of the highways themselves. Instead of being drains on state budgets, rest areas could have been contributors.

I don't consider them to be an advantage for travelers. In my experience, gas prices at the service areas are higher than in private establishments. The restaurants often have limited menus and don't take part in lots of franchise promotions such as sales, value menus, coupons, and in some cases, the prices are higher, too, than they would be at the same brand of restaurant located off of the freeway exits. They also don't have the convenience of drive-thrus. I'm not sure how the franchisees handle apps, now. I know that at most McDonald's locations, you can order in the app, park in the parking lot, and they'll bring your food out to you. Other restaurants offer the same feature.

As for the WK Parkway's service area, that route was never an interstate. And the WK Parkway was originally a 140-mile slog through mostly rural areas, with few services and widely-spaced exits. The service plaza there made sense, and really still does despite more exits being built and more services popping up at Leitchfield, Beaver Dam, Central City, and Princeton. Hopefully, when that segment becomes an interstate -- and given Kentucky's penchant for getting the designation on its former toll roads, it's bound to happen -- the plaza will be grandfathered in.

Didn't Congress pass a bill to make it I-369 or something?

Upon further review, I think you're right. I believe they did get a definite future interstate designation for the WK between the Pennyrile and the Natcher. (I still have trouble with calling the northern section of the Pennyrile 69 and the Natcher 165.) And the service plaza is just to the west of the Natcher interchange. I may have even expressed a thought about whether or not the service plaza would be grandfathered in.

If they're going to turn that segment of the WK into an interstate, it's illogical for the whole thing to I-65 not to be so designated.

I think the 369 designation is half assed for a number for the rest of the WK Pkwy. Either combine it with the Bluegrass and call it I-54, 56 or 58, or if you want to leave the Bluegrass out, extend I-71 down the WK. KY is increasingly becoming like NC when it comes to 3di numbers now imo.

Probably just leave BG Pkwy out, since it doesn't look like it will get past US 60 in any of our lifetimes anyway.

Service areas are more convenient than getting off the highway, particularly so for some toll roads.  But you pay for that convenience with higher prices.

Just like you pay for the convenience of stopping at a 7-11 instead of going to the big-box grocery store.

Quote from: GaryV on July 01, 2021, 11:10:20 AM
Service areas are more convenient than getting off the highway, particularly so for some toll roads.  But you pay for that convenience with higher prices.

Just like you pay for the convenience of stopping at a 7-11 instead of going to the big-box grocery store.

The key distinction is that consumers choose to pay for that convenience, otherwise they would have lower prices or be out of business.

Quote from: SkyPesos on June 30, 2021, 09:35:23 PM
KY is increasingly becoming like NC when it comes to 3di numbers now imo.

How, exactly? All of NC's 3di additions, with the exception of I-785, I-795, and I-587 (all too short for 2di routes) have been beltway and urban routes. None of them are long distance routes.

The only benefit I see to having service plazas on toll roads in the 21st century is if you exit the highway, you'll often end up paying more in tolls than if you hadn't exited due to how the ramp tolls work - even if you travel the same total distance.

That said, the higher prices at those service plazas probably more than account for whatever you save in tolls by going to them. So maybe there is no real benefit.

Quote from: US 89 on July 01, 2021, 01:18:19 PM
The only benefit I see to having service plazas on toll roads in the 21st century is if you exit the highway, you'll often end up paying more in tolls than if you hadn't exited due to how the ramp tolls work - even if you travel the same total distance.

That said, the higher prices at those service plazas probably more than account for whatever you save in tolls by going to them. So maybe there is no real benefit.

The benefit is convenience.

Quote from: US 89 on July 01, 2021, 01:18:19 PM
The only benefit I see to having service plazas on toll roads in the 21st century is if you exit the highway, you'll often end up paying more in tolls than if you hadn't exited due to how the ramp tolls work - even if you travel the same total distance.

That said, the higher prices at those service plazas probably more than account for whatever you save in tolls by going to them. So maybe there is no real benefit.

That would only be the case on a limited number of roads, yet service plazas still exist elsewhere, which indicates people consider them more convenient.

I'm a bit surprised that there aren't motels/hotels in some of the service plazas. There was a lodging establishment in the old Kentucky Turnpike service plaza at Shepherdsville. I think it was a Quality Inn at one point.

Quote from: hbelkins on July 01, 2021, 08:04:18 PM
I'm a bit surprised that there aren't motels/hotels in some of the service plazas. There was a lodging establishment in the old Kentucky Turnpike service plaza at Shepherdsville. I think it was a Quality Inn at one point.

I think I read that Pennsylvania once had some sort of lodging upstairs at the Midway Service Plaza (I think the one on the south side, with a tunnel connecting it to the other side for access, but I might be mistaken).

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on June 29, 2021, 09:57:31 PM
There's a small one near Exit 13 on I-87

No, there isn't.

Quote from: US 89 on July 01, 2021, 01:18:19 PM
The only benefit I see to having service plazas on toll roads in the 21st century is if you exit the highway, you'll often end up paying more in tolls than if you hadn't exited due to how the ramp tolls work - even if you travel the same total distance.

That said, the higher prices at those service plazas probably more than account for whatever you save in tolls by going to them. So maybe there is no real benefit.

I would imagine many people stopping at these plazas don't expect the pricing they're going to find there, or the limited options. Many service plaza fast food outlets don't have the dollar (or low price) options or cheaper combos. Someone driving may first see it as a convenience, but probably leave unhappy they fed their family on fast food and still spent 40 bucks for some basic meals.

I think most people buying McDonalds at a service plaza don't care if their value meal costs an extra $2 because the convenience is worth the cost.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2021, 08:50:57 AM

Quote from: US 89 on July 01, 2021, 01:18:19 PM
The only benefit I see to having service plazas on toll roads in the 21st century is if you exit the highway, you'll often end up paying more in tolls than if you hadn't exited due to how the ramp tolls work - even if you travel the same total distance.

That said, the higher prices at those service plazas probably more than account for whatever you save in tolls by going to them. So maybe there is no real benefit.

I would imagine many people stopping at these plazas don't expect the pricing they're going to find there, or the limited options. Many service plaza fast food outlets don't have the dollar (or low price) options or cheaper combos. Someone driving may first see it as a convenience, but probably leave unhappy they fed their family on fast food and still spent 40 bucks for some basic meals.

I doubt that is a common occurrence. I have never walked out of a service plaza fretting over the extra $2 I paid for my food, thinking if only I had spent 20 minutes trying to find an exit, navigate to another restaurant, eat there, and get back on the road.
You forget that the prices are posted and people know what they are buying, they can choose to walk away. But realistically most would not care, and the few that might only have to do it once to decide that they would rather spend the extra time and hassle trying to save a couple bucks.

Service plazas have higher prices and sometimes the branded restaurants therein may not have every item you'd find in a standalone of the same chain.  That said, they're far more convenient than exiting and thus save time if not money. And in places where service plazas are on non-toll highways (such as the 401 in Ontario), they're an easy and convenient place to stop.  Not far to my south is the Tri-State Tollway and I often stop at the Lake Forest Oasis for a coffee or snack along the way (gas too, but only if I'm in a pinch).  It's clean, it's convenient and it takes a lot less time than getting on and off would take, even if getting off wouldn't add to the toll cost (which it often does).

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:24:19 AM

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on June 29, 2021, 09:57:31 PM
There's a small one near Exit 13 on I-87

No, there isn't.

Is this (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.895057,-73.8821726,3a,52.2y,251.39h,88.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swmY3PkxbiKPzTDDrM013fA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) beneath you?

Quote from: vdeane on July 02, 2021, 12:47:29 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:24:19 AM

Quote from: TheGrassGuy on June 29, 2021, 09:57:31 PM
There's a small one near Exit 13 on I-87

No, there isn't.

Is this (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.895057,-73.8821726,3a,52.2y,251.39h,88.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1swmY3PkxbiKPzTDDrM013fA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) beneath you?

Somehow I looked in the other three places (Northway, overlap with 287, and the one in North Carolina), but not there.

Think of a service plaza as buying something at a convenience store versus a supermarket.

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 02, 2021, 01:24:51 PM
Think of a service plaza as buying something at a convenience store versus a supermarket.

True, and I would argue the price difference is probabally less in % terms in many cases than even that.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2021, 08:50:57 AM

Quote from: US 89 on July 01, 2021, 01:18:19 PM
The only benefit I see to having service plazas on toll roads in the 21st century is if you exit the highway, you'll often end up paying more in tolls than if you hadn't exited due to how the ramp tolls work - even if you travel the same total distance.

That said, the higher prices at those service plazas probably more than account for whatever you save in tolls by going to them. So maybe there is no real benefit.

I would imagine many people stopping at these plazas don't expect the pricing they're going to find there, or the limited options. Many service plaza fast food outlets don't have the dollar (or low price) options or cheaper combos. Someone driving may first see it as a convenience, but probably leave unhappy they fed their family on fast food and still spent 40 bucks for some basic meals.

It's not just fast-food franchises at service plazas, either. Back in 1991 when I went west with my dad and brother, we stopped for lunch one day on I-70 somewhere in the Vail area. Menu prices were significantly higher than in other locations, so we left and went to another fast-food place. I'm thinking the two choices were Burger King and McDonald's, although I cannot remember for certain. At any rate, at the second option, menu prices were also significantly higher, so we bit the bullet there rather than trying to find a third option where the same phenomenon would likely have been encountered. So it seems that the area's status as a vacation destination gives local businesses the go-ahead to price-gouge.

If it had been me alone, I probably would have just gotten back in the car and stopped at Grand Junction.

The McDonald's in downtown Gatlinburg used to post signs saying they might not take part in all franchise-wide promotions or accept coupons, and that was 20 years ago.

Quote from: hbelkins on July 02, 2021, 03:14:17 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2021, 08:50:57 AM

Quote from: US 89 on July 01, 2021, 01:18:19 PM
The only benefit I see to having service plazas on toll roads in the 21st century is if you exit the highway, you'll often end up paying more in tolls than if you hadn't exited due to how the ramp tolls work - even if you travel the same total distance.

That said, the higher prices at those service plazas probably more than account for whatever you save in tolls by going to them. So maybe there is no real benefit.

I would imagine many people stopping at these plazas don't expect the pricing they're going to find there, or the limited options. Many service plaza fast food outlets don't have the dollar (or low price) options or cheaper combos. Someone driving may first see it as a convenience, but probably leave unhappy they fed their family on fast food and still spent 40 bucks for some basic meals.

It's not just fast-food franchises at service plazas, either. Back in 1991 when I went west with my dad and brother, we stopped for lunch one day on I-70 somewhere in the Vail area. Menu prices were significantly higher than in other locations, so we left and went to another fast-food place. I'm thinking the two choices were Burger King and McDonald's, although I cannot remember for certain. At any rate, at the second option, menu prices were also significantly higher, so we bit the bullet there rather than trying to find a third option where the same phenomenon would likely have been encountered. So it seems that the area's status as a vacation destination gives local businesses the go-ahead to price-gouge.

If it had been me alone, I probably would have just gotten back in the car and stopped at Grand Junction.

The McDonald's in downtown Gatlinburg used to post signs saying they might not take part in all franchise-wide promotions or accept coupons, and that was 20 years ago.

"the go-ahead to price-gouge"

"Gouging" is not a real thing. It is to economics what perpetual motion is to physics.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 03:21:32 PM
"Gouging" is not a real thing. It is to economics what perpetual motion is to physics.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sun+Gas/@28.4654136,-81.3114621,16.92z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88e7636cc9ab7bb1:0x8438c406007b30a!8m2!3d28.4656543!4d-81.3106835

Quote from: 1 on July 02, 2021, 03:36:11 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 03:21:32 PM
"Gouging" is not a real thing. It is to economics what perpetual motion is to physics.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sun+Gas/@28.4654136,-81.3114621,16.92z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88e7636cc9ab7bb1:0x8438c406007b30a!8m2!3d28.4656543!4d-81.3106835

And let us see why prices might be higher at Sun Gas?
Well, one theory is it is located on the way to Orlando Airport, in fact, it appears to be the last gas station on that road before the airport. As such, it is the last opportunity for motorists to fuel their rental cars before returning them. Since the rental companies frequently impose a hefty fee for that convenience, the alternative of stopping and paying a higher than average price for gasoline is apparently attractive to some motorists. Hence, reservation prices are higher (for gas in that exact location) and hence equilibrium prices are higher. No "gouging", just supply and demand as usual.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:06:56 PM

Quote from: 1 on July 02, 2021, 03:36:11 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 03:21:32 PM
"Gouging" is not a real thing. It is to economics what perpetual motion is to physics.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sun+Gas/@28.4654136,-81.3114621,16.92z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88e7636cc9ab7bb1:0x8438c406007b30a!8m2!3d28.4656543!4d-81.3106835

And let us see why prices might be higher at Sun Gas?
Well, one theory is it is located on the way to Orlando Airport, in fact, it appears to be the last gas station on that road before the airport. As such, it is the last opportunity for motorists to fuel their rental cars before returning them. Since the rental companies frequently impose a hefty fee for that convenience, the alternative of stopping and paying a higher than average price for gasoline is apparently attractive to some motorists. Hence, reservation prices are higher (for gas in that exact location) and hence equilibrium prices are higher. No "gouging", just supply and demand as usual.

You're definitely right about why the price is so high, but in this instance it still is gouging IMO, there is a Wawa 2 blocks away with normal priced gas (and plenty of other gas stations within a few miles). There is plenty of supply of regular priced gas in the area, not your typical supply and demand issue. They are just preying on out of town tourists in a hurry or unfamiliar with the area.  From what I can tell, they don't make the gas prices super obvious from the road, there are signs, but not super visible. They are hoping people assume that the price is reasonable (since most of the time, pull into any gas station and the price won't be outrageous). Especially international tourists who may not be familiar with US gas prices due to currency conversion, gallons instead of liters, and US gas being generally cheaper than many countries.

For what it's worth, Sun Gas, and Suncoast Energy across the street, are charging $5-6 per gallon (even back when normal price was $2/gal or less a few months ago), double to triple the market rate. Normally, a "convenience fee" type gas markup might be something like $0.30-0.50, but a $2-3 markup is gouging.

As opposed to something like a gas station in the middle of the Nevada desert charging more for gas because they're the only thing around (and the cost of labor, gas transportation, etc. is higher due to its location), for example, would not be gouging. In that case, should be glad there's any gas at all!

Quote from: doorknob60 on July 02, 2021, 04:17:14 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:06:56 PM

Quote from: 1 on July 02, 2021, 03:36:11 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 03:21:32 PM
"Gouging" is not a real thing. It is to economics what perpetual motion is to physics.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sun+Gas/@28.4654136,-81.3114621,16.92z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x88e7636cc9ab7bb1:0x8438c406007b30a!8m2!3d28.4656543!4d-81.3106835

And let us see why prices might be higher at Sun Gas?
Well, one theory is it is located on the way to Orlando Airport, in fact, it appears to be the last gas station on that road before the airport. As such, it is the last opportunity for motorists to fuel their rental cars before returning them. Since the rental companies frequently impose a hefty fee for that convenience, the alternative of stopping and paying a higher than average price for gasoline is apparently attractive to some motorists. Hence, reservation prices are higher (for gas in that exact location) and hence equilibrium prices are higher. No "gouging", just supply and demand as usual.

You're definitely right about why the price is so high, but in this instance it still is gouging IMO, there is a Wawa 2 blocks away with normal priced gas (and plenty of other gas stations within a few miles). There is plenty of supply of regular priced gas in the area, not your typical supply and demand issue. They are just preying on out of town tourists in a hurry or unfamiliar with the area.  From what I can tell, they don't make the gas prices super obvious from the road, there are signs, but not super visible. They are hoping people assume that the price is reasonable (since most of the time, pull into any gas station and the price won't be outrageous). Especially international tourists who may not be familiar with US gas prices due to currency conversion, gallons instead of liters, and US gas being generally cheaper than many countries.

As opposed to something like a gas station in the middle of the Nevada desert charging more for gas because they're the only thing around (and the cost of labor, gas transportation, etc. is higher due to its location), for example, would not be gouging. In that case, should be glad there's any gas at all!

Again, there is no such thing as "gouging", it is as absurd to talk of it as perpetual motion machines or other physics nonsense.

"there is a Wawa 2 blocks away"
So? That does not necessarily mean anything, its two blocks back, requiring someone to turn around and go back north on the other side of a major road, then go back south. A total of 2 left turns in what is presumably traffic much of the time. Not inconsequential when catching a flight.

"and plenty of other gas stations within a few miles"
Even more irrelevant for the above reason, if I am late for a plane and need to fuel the car I don't have time to drive 2 miles out of my way to save on the fuel bill.

"not your typical supply and demand issue" That is exactly what it is. Prices are set by supply and demand.

"They are just preying on out of town tourists in a hurry or unfamiliar with the area" now you have dumped logic and gone with loaded words like "preying" that confuse the issue. They are not "preying" on anyone, they are offering a product at a price, people are free to choose to consume it or not. The customer is free to decide if the convenience is worth it to them, and for many it presumably is. In economics there is a concept of the cost of figuring things out, even if someone could get cheaper gas elsewhere it may not be worth it to them to bother with. You can always save by spending more time trying to, but everyone draws the line somewhere.

"Especially international tourists who may not be familiar with US gas prices due to currency conversion, gallons instead of liters, and US gas being generally cheaper than many countries"
Again, there is a cost for figuring things out. If you don't bother to do research it may cost you more. That is not the fault or mistreatment of the gas station.

(and the cost of labor, gas transportation, etc. is higher due to its location)" You are making a classic mistake of students in their first economics course by bringing in costs. First rule of Econ 101, costs do not matter, and prices are set by what a buyer will pay.

You do not have to be in a desert to have a constrained supply, that is a fallacy. The Sun Gas station may have gas stations nearby, but that is not the sole, or even most relevant criterion in determining the demand curve. Like it or not it is the last gas station before the airport, and what it provides as a good is not identical to others for that reason.

An old quip among economists is that it is "gouging" when it is more than I think I would pay, but is not "gouging" otherwise. The idiocy of that statement is hopefully self apparent.

I will also say that while you try to conceive of this station as charging "too much" to people unfamiliar with the area, etc. that is not a particularly likely explanation given its location on the way to, rather than from, the airport. Much more likely in my mind is a population you did not even bother to consider, which tends to have very high reservation prices. What would this population be?


Business travelers putting the expense on a company card that they don't foot the bill on.

Perhaps now you can lecture us on how it is "gouging" that you pay more for airplane tickets booked at the last minute.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 02, 2021, 09:02:25 AM
I think most people buying McDonalds at a service plaza don't care if their value meal costs an extra $2 because the convenience is worth the cost.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 10:37:52 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2021, 08:50:57 AM

Quote from: US 89 on July 01, 2021, 01:18:19 PM
The only benefit I see to having service plazas on toll roads in the 21st century is if you exit the highway, you'll often end up paying more in tolls than if you hadn't exited due to how the ramp tolls work - even if you travel the same total distance.

That said, the higher prices at those service plazas probably more than account for whatever you save in tolls by going to them. So maybe there is no real benefit.

I would imagine many people stopping at these plazas don't expect the pricing they're going to find there, or the limited options. Many service plaza fast food outlets don't have the dollar (or low price) options or cheaper combos. Someone driving may first see it as a convenience, but probably leave unhappy they fed their family on fast food and still spent 40 bucks for some basic meals.

I doubt that is a common occurrence. I have never walked out of a service plaza fretting over the extra $2 I paid for my food, thinking if only I had spent 20 minutes trying to find an exit, navigate to another restaurant, eat there, and get back on the road.

I guess when I said "family", I wasn't thinking families of 1.

When a family pays an extra $2 per meal, or when the option of the $1 burger doesn't exist so they have to go with a $4 burger, suddenly that extra $8 or $10 is much more costly than leaving the toll road then re-entering.

Of course, since apparently we've forgotten the subject line here, if they're exiting and re-entering the highway on a non toll road, the only savings is time, not money.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2021, 04:39:18 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 02, 2021, 09:02:25 AM
I think most people buying McDonalds at a service plaza don't care if their value meal costs an extra $2 because the convenience is worth the cost.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 10:37:52 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2021, 08:50:57 AM

Quote from: US 89 on July 01, 2021, 01:18:19 PM
The only benefit I see to having service plazas on toll roads in the 21st century is if you exit the highway, you'll often end up paying more in tolls than if you hadn't exited due to how the ramp tolls work - even if you travel the same total distance.

That said, the higher prices at those service plazas probably more than account for whatever you save in tolls by going to them. So maybe there is no real benefit.

I would imagine many people stopping at these plazas don't expect the pricing they're going to find there, or the limited options. Many service plaza fast food outlets don't have the dollar (or low price) options or cheaper combos. Someone driving may first see it as a convenience, but probably leave unhappy they fed their family on fast food and still spent 40 bucks for some basic meals.

I doubt that is a common occurrence. I have never walked out of a service plaza fretting over the extra $2 I paid for my food, thinking if only I had spent 20 minutes trying to find an exit, navigate to another restaurant, eat there, and get back on the road.

I guess when I said "family", I wasn't thinking families of 1.

When a family pays an extra $2 per meal, or when the option of the $1 burger doesn't exist so they have to go with a $4 burger, suddenly that extra $8 or $10 is much more costly than leaving the toll road then re-entering.

Of course, since apparently we've forgotten the subject line here, if they're exiting and re-entering the highway on a non toll road, the only savings is time, not money.

The dollar burger at McDonalds is not really comparable to the $4 burger though. For $1 now days you usually only get their hamburger or cheeseburger. That is only 1 of their standard 1/8 patties. Even without a value menu I would say at most $2 per person difference, and very possibly much less than that. The average household size in the US is between 2 and 3 people now days, so I would say $5 is a good estimate of the upper bound cost difference.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 04:48:04 PM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2021, 04:39:18 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 02, 2021, 09:02:25 AM
I think most people buying McDonalds at a service plaza don't care if their value meal costs an extra $2 because the convenience is worth the cost.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 10:37:52 AM

Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 02, 2021, 08:50:57 AM

Quote from: US 89 on July 01, 2021, 01:18:19 PM
The only benefit I see to having service plazas on toll roads in the 21st century is if you exit the highway, you'll often end up paying more in tolls than if you hadn't exited due to how the ramp tolls work - even if you travel the same total distance.

That said, the higher prices at those service plazas probably more than account for whatever you save in tolls by going to them. So maybe there is no real benefit.

I would imagine many people stopping at these plazas don't expect the pricing they're going to find there, or the limited options. Many service plaza fast food outlets don't have the dollar (or low price) options or cheaper combos. Someone driving may first see it as a convenience, but probably leave unhappy they fed their family on fast food and still spent 40 bucks for some basic meals.

I doubt that is a common occurrence. I have never walked out of a service plaza fretting over the extra $2 I paid for my food, thinking if only I had spent 20 minutes trying to find an exit, navigate to another restaurant, eat there, and get back on the road.

I guess when I said "family", I wasn't thinking families of 1.

When a family pays an extra $2 per meal, or when the option of the $1 burger doesn't exist so they have to go with a $4 burger, suddenly that extra $8 or $10 is much more costly than leaving the toll road then re-entering.

Of course, since apparently we've forgotten the subject line here, if they're exiting and re-entering the highway on a non toll road, the only savings is time, not money.

The dollar burger at McDonalds is not really comparable to the $4 burger though. For $1 now days you usually only get their hamburger or cheeseburger. That is only 1 of their standard 1/8 patties. Even without a value menu I would say at most $2 per person difference, and very possibly much less than that. The average household size in the US is between 2 and 3 people now days, so I would say $5 is a good estimate of the upper bound cost difference.

Oh brother.

Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?

It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

That was the opinion of a news editor, a group famous for their economic carelessness.

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?

It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?

It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.

Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?

It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.

Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

I'm amazed how much this guy just goes on and on.

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?

It's $45 now? You said it was $30 when you were arguing against forum member Beltway.

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?

It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.

Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

With all due respect, I doubt it.
I would not profess to sit here and be an expert on something like calculating the distribution of force on pavement from a large truck tire, or the appropriate fill material for supporting a concrete roadway.
However, I will tell you that the term "gouging" has no economic meaning, and is about as meaningful to economists as Platonic physics is to physicists. Its not a thing.  :-D

Quote from: 1 on July 02, 2021, 08:15:21 PM
It's $45 now? You said it was $30 when you were arguing against forum member Beltway.

The I-95 lanes have and still often do peak $30 (if you consider now all the way from DC on the I-395 / I-95 HO/T lane system down to Fredericksburg - once that extension opens - I would not be surprised to see $45 - $50+ rates be the norm for that entire 45 mile segment), that was the focus point for that debate. The $45 is in reference to the I-66 Inside the Beltway lanes, which is the entire highway. They have reached those types of prices for the 9 mile long stretch on certain occasions.

Not sure if it has gone higher, but this image shows $46.75 two years ago.
(https://images.foxtv.com/static.fox5dc.com/www.fox5dc.com/content/uploads/2019/10/764/432/Untitled-1_1558530903604_7301559_ver1.0_1280_720.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
https://www.fox5dc.com/news/not-again-tolls-on-i-66-express-lanes-climb-to-nearly-50-during-wednesday-morning-commute

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 08:15:49 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?

It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.

Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

With all due respect, I doubt it.
I would not profess to sit here and be an expert on something like calculating the distribution of force on pavement from a large truck tire, or the appropriate fill material for supporting a concrete roadway.
However, I will tell you that the term "gouging" has no economic meaning, and is about as meaningful to economists as Platonic physics is to physicists. Its not a thing.  :-D

I'm an economics major. You are right that it's not an economic thing. But it is a moral thing. For instance, charging a thirsty person $100 for a cup of water when there is not alternative source is price gouging.  Life is more than economics.

However higher prices on tollway service areas isn't price gouging.

Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 02, 2021, 10:37:01 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 08:15:49 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?

It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.

Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

With all due respect, I doubt it.
I would not profess to sit here and be an expert on something like calculating the distribution of force on pavement from a large truck tire, or the appropriate fill material for supporting a concrete roadway.
However, I will tell you that the term "gouging" has no economic meaning, and is about as meaningful to economists as Platonic physics is to physicists. Its not a thing.  :-D

I'm an economics major. You are right that it's not an economic thing. But it is a moral thing. For instance, charging a thirsty person $100 for a cup of water when there is not alternative source is price gouging.  Life is more than economics.

However higher prices on tollway service areas isn't price gouging.

You don't sound like an econ major. Charging for that water is not price "gouging". Furthermore, there is no bright line of an acceptable price even under that pretense. If they are thirsty and you are claiming it is a moral problem then either you give it to them or any price is the same. There is no special significance in $100 or $50 or $1. And while being charitable is fine and all, it cannot produce the goods and services that run the economy.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 08:15:49 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?

It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.

Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

With all due respect, I doubt it.
I would not profess to sit here and be an expert on something like calculating the distribution of force on pavement from a large truck tire, or the appropriate fill material for supporting a concrete roadway.
However, I will tell you that the term "gouging" has no economic meaning, and is about as meaningful to economists as Platonic physics is to physicists. Its not a thing.  :-D

You're repeating yourself.  Maybe you're a bot.

Quote from: Rothman on July 03, 2021, 12:02:35 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 08:15:49 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?

It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.

Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

With all due respect, I doubt it.
I would not profess to sit here and be an expert on something like calculating the distribution of force on pavement from a large truck tire, or the appropriate fill material for supporting a concrete roadway.
However, I will tell you that the term "gouging" has no economic meaning, and is about as meaningful to economists as Platonic physics is to physicists. Its not a thing.  :-D

You're repeating yourself.  Maybe you're a bot.

A bot would have to have some sophisticated programming to write that way.
No, I am afraid repetition tends to happen when you explain something and people give you a response as if they had not understood a word you said. There are only so many ways to make the same point.  :banghead:

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 11:35:34 PM

Quote from: SEWIGuy on July 02, 2021, 10:37:01 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 08:15:49 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?

It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.

Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

With all due respect, I doubt it.
I would not profess to sit here and be an expert on something like calculating the distribution of force on pavement from a large truck tire, or the appropriate fill material for supporting a concrete roadway.
However, I will tell you that the term "gouging" has no economic meaning, and is about as meaningful to economists as Platonic physics is to physicists. Its not a thing.  :-D

I'm an economics major. You are right that it's not an economic thing. But it is a moral thing. For instance, charging a thirsty person $100 for a cup of water when there is not alternative source is price gouging.  Life is more than economics.

However higher prices on tollway service areas isn't price gouging.

You don't sound like an econ major. Charging for that water is not price "gouging". Furthermore, there is no bright line of an acceptable price even under that pretense. If they are thirsty and you are claiming it is a moral problem then either you give it to them or any price is the same. There is no special significance in $100 or $50 or $1. And while being charitable is fine and all, it cannot produce the goods and services that run the economy.

Well I am an econ major.  And again, you missed my point.  Price gouging may not be a thing in economics, but it is still a thing.  If you choose to minimize or ignore it, that's fine.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 02:06:11 AM

Quote from: Rothman on July 03, 2021, 12:02:35 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 08:15:49 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:59:25 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 02, 2021, 07:58:21 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:26:03 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 02, 2021, 07:23:22 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 02, 2021, 07:00:54 PM
Yes, Virginia, there is such a thing as price gouging.

What do you mean, a $45 toll to drive 9 miles is normal, right?

It's a moral term, rather than economic.  Just because there are people willing to pay the obnoxiously high price doesn't make it right or negate the fact that it is gouging.

No, it is not a "moral" term either, at best it is a politically motivated one to pit one group against another. How is it "immoral" to charge people the price they are willing to pay? Maybe if you hold a gun to their head during the transaction I could see that, but otherwise not so much.
Speaking of the "fairness" of pricing is as absurd as deliberating the "justice" of gravity or the "fairness" of electromagnetism.

Keep tilting at that windmill.  The rest of us consumers know gouging when we see it, hence the moral judgment.

With all due respect, I doubt it.
I would not profess to sit here and be an expert on something like calculating the distribution of force on pavement from a large truck tire, or the appropriate fill material for supporting a concrete roadway.
However, I will tell you that the term "gouging" has no economic meaning, and is about as meaningful to economists as Platonic physics is to physicists. Its not a thing.  :-D

You're repeating yourself.  Maybe you're a bot.

A bot would have to have some sophisticated programming to write that way.
No, I am afraid repetition tends to happen when you explain something and people give you a response as if they had not understood a word you said. There are only so many ways to make the same point.  :banghead:

It's not about making the same point, but considering and responding to those that respond to you.  When you can't incorporate other thoughts into your position, your position is incomplete.

"Gouging" means overcharging.  "Overcharging" means charging too much.  "Too much" is a value judgment.  What is an acceptable price to some may not be to others.

I am not willing (let alone able) to spend millions of dollars on a painting.  Others are able.  But that doesn't mean when a Van Gogh is auctioned for $37,000,000 that the seller was gouging.  It's what the market would bear.

If the price of gas is more than you can bear at a service plaza, don't buy it there.  Don't buy gas just outside the airport entrance.  (Aside: I am amazed that gas stations, often the same brand, can be 20 or 30 cents different in price just a mile or two apart, when neither place is somewhere exclusive.)

It's not gouging if you can still find something for a lower price. Like I complained for years about the BP in Romulus on middlebelt by the far rental return at metro l. They would charge over a dollar more a gallon than everyone else in the area. The reason was they are the last gas station before the car rental return so they are trying to hammer you people thinking they need to return with a full tank don't thinkof anything else then bam that station is there. But if you can find it for a lower price it's not gouging I sent a letter to the Michigan Attorney General and got one back stating this. This was back when Mike Cox was the AG.

We understand HighwayStar's point. We just don't agree with him and, like certain other posters (which I don't find coincidental), he refuses to accept any argument that disagrees with his own. Economic theory isn't everything.

Quote from: GaryV on July 03, 2021, 09:16:46 AM
If the price of gas is more than you can bear at a service plaza, don't buy it there.  Don't buy gas just outside the airport entrance.  (Aside: I am amazed that gas stations, often the same brand, can be 20 or 30 cents different in price just a mile or two apart, when neither place is somewhere exclusive.)

I'm amazed that they aren't.

If you figure each business tries to keep the same profit margin, there are many factors that go into that profit - how much did the land cost to purchase?  How much did it cost to build? Does one location pay their employees more?  Does one location get a larger volume of vehicles? 

All else being equal, a business that has been at a location for 50 years may have their mortgage paid off, while another location built last year has a hefty mortgage.  Selling gas at $3.00 per gallon at the 1st station is netting them a lot more in profit than the gas being sold for at $3.00 at the second location.

People are also a lot more sensitive to pricing at gas stations because of of the signage by the roadway.  If they instead used the signage to advertise a 20 oz bottle of Coke, people would see similar price differences, and wonder how that could be.

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 03, 2021, 10:20:00 AM
We understand HighwayStar's point. We just don't agree with him and, like certain other posters (which I don't find coincidental), he refuses to accept any argument that disagrees with his own. Economic theory isn't everything.

You clearly don't understand the point, once again it is a matter of science, not a matter of opinion. And why should I accept an argument which demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of the subject at hand? You have to convince me, and that cannot be done with poor reasoning.

"Economic theory isn't everything." That is a strawman fallacy, no one said it was. However, the issue at hand has nothing to do with theory and everything to do with economic reality. Nor is another discipline suited to answer the question, however useful or valid those may be. You cannot fix a window with a sledgehammer. The real crux of the issue here is just that some people are mad when they have to pay more, and wish that were not the case, so they come up with some arbitrary line at which prices are "GoUGinG!!!!!!" and complain about it, even if it is obvious that a great many other people have no issue with paying those prices. That is not only an entirely unpersuasive argument, but it does little to address the substance of the issue in the first place.

^ Why are you so adamant about proving this point nobody here is seeing, nor personally cares? Move on.

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 03, 2021, 11:53:46 AM
^ Why are you so adamant about proving this point nobody here is seeing, nor personally cares? Move on.

I don't have to prove it, people much smarter than me have long since done that. I simply like to spread the word.  :clap:
And I rather doubt no one cares or they would not bother to keep bringing it up.

This thread is a disaster

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on July 03, 2021, 02:45:16 PM
This thread is a disaster

Well, the fact that we have a special interest law that makes service plazas illegal on non-toll roads means that there are simply few examples to name. Once the low hanging fruit have been picked we have to wait aground for someone to bring up one we all missed somehow. In the meantime its natural to consider the policy that created this result and how bad the outcome has been.

But the Control Cities thread says hold my beer  :coffee:

^ The control cities thread is beating at a dead horse, as we wait for them to change the signs to "Baltimore Beltway"  and "Capital Beltway" .

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 11:52:33 AM

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 03, 2021, 10:20:00 AM
We understand HighwayStar's point. We just don't agree with him and, like certain other posters (which I don't find coincidental), he refuses to accept any argument that disagrees with his own. Economic theory isn't everything.

You clearly don't understand the point, once again it is a matter of science, not a matter of opinion. And why should I accept an argument which demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of the subject at hand? You have to convince me, and that cannot be done with poor reasoning.

"Economic theory isn't everything." That is a strawman fallacy, no one said it was. However, the issue at hand has nothing to do with theory and everything to do with economic reality. Nor is another discipline suited to answer the question, however useful or valid those may be. You cannot fix a window with a sledgehammer. The real crux of the issue here is just that some people are mad when they have to pay more, and wish that were not the case, so they come up with some arbitrary line at which prices are "GoUGinG!!!!!!" and complain about it, even if it is obvious that a great many other people have no issue with paying those prices. That is not only an entirely unpersuasive argument, but it does little to address the substance of the issue in the first place.

Your loose grasp of science and incorrect perspective ("...a great many other people have no issue...") are "entirely unpersuasive."  You've been presented with enough credible criticism of your position for this to be a matter of your own stubborn blinders, not ours.

While those who counter your argument actually agree with one of its tenets (e.g., gouging not being an economic term), you, on the other hand, have not considered what has been said and have just dismissed it out of hand.  You have not presented anything to contradict what others have said, just repeating the points you already have already made.  It is demonstrating a lack of reasonableness, rather than being the expertise-backed fact you claim.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 11:52:33 AM
"Economic theory isn't everything." That is a strawman fallacy, no one said it was.

You are.  Your entire argument rests on a belief that economic theory is everything.  As was mentioned, nobody is disputing that gouging isn't an economic term, just arguing that there are factors beyond economics that need to be considered.  YOU are the one arguing that any argument or consideration not rooted entirely in economic theory is invalid.

Quote from: vdeane on July 03, 2021, 09:15:50 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 11:52:33 AM
"Economic theory isn't everything." That is a strawman fallacy, no one said it was.

You are.  Your entire argument rests on a belief that economic theory is everything.  As was mentioned, nobody is disputing that gouging isn't an economic term, just arguing that there are factors beyond economics that need to be considered.  YOU are the one arguing that any argument or consideration not rooted entirely in economic theory is invalid.

Nope, sorry, swing and a miss again. No one has put forth any kind of coherent argument that proves why "gOUuginG" is bad, or how we can draw a clear distinction at which point prices become so. If you want to talk about things other than economics that is fine, but quit pretending like your non-economic values can save face on the gouging issue. Either we have a moral obligation to provide people with gasoline for free, or we don't. There is no morality about pricing, which is the claim that is repeatedly being used here.

About the Orlando Airport stations: They intentionally hide their prices, and all the reviews say "I wasn't expecting it to cost this much; this place is a scam."

What tastes better, an overpriced burger from a highway rest area or corporate boot leather? Cause I think there's some folks in this thread that have some experience tasting both...

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 09:24:58 PM

Quote from: vdeane on July 03, 2021, 09:15:50 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 11:52:33 AM
"Economic theory isn't everything." That is a strawman fallacy, no one said it was.

You are.  Your entire argument rests on a belief that economic theory is everything.  As was mentioned, nobody is disputing that gouging isn't an economic term, just arguing that there are factors beyond economics that need to be considered.  YOU are the one arguing that any argument or consideration not rooted entirely in economic theory is invalid.

Nope, sorry, swing and a miss again. No one has put forth any kind of coherent argument that proves why "gOUuginG" is bad, or how we can draw a clear distinction at which point prices become so. If you want to talk about things other than economics that is fine, but quit pretending like your non-economic values can save face on the gouging issue. Either we have a moral obligation to provide people with gasoline for free, or we don't. There is no morality about pricing, which is the claim that is repeatedly being used here.

If there was really no morality about pricing, we would not have seen the gas shortages we did last month, because the gas stations wouldn't have been blocked by law from jacking up their prices when the pipeline was hacked.

I fail to see any reason why we, on a hobby forum, should have to draw some kind of clear distinction using economic theory to discuss the issue of pricing at rest areas and airport gas stations.  Clearly nobody other than you has any issues thinking about this issue without numbers attached.  An the whole idea that either no price is too high or we need to provide gas for free, with no moral in-between, is so ridiculous that you are clearly a troll.

To draw a subjective distinction: the fact that prices tend to be a bit higher at service plazas is common knowledge.  People accept that and go there anyways for the convenience.  That gas station prices their gas well beyond any expectation of what the markup for being right next to the airport would be, and deliberately makes it had to find out what the price is until you get to the pump, hoping you'll see the gas station on your way out and decide to fill up the car there on the way back, only realizing the price when it's likely too late to find a gas station elsewhere.  It stands to reason that, had they advertised their price on the road and people saw it, they would have figured out a different place to get gas and wouldn't be stuck paying up at that station when they find out the price right before their flight.

Homo economicus may have perfect knowledge of who's charging what and always make decisions based on cold logic, but homo sapiens doesn't.

 :popcorn: :popcorn:  :popcorn:

This guy is a true internet warrior and a troll at the same time.

Quote from: GaryV on July 01, 2021, 11:10:20 AM
Service areas are more convenient than getting off the highway, particularly so for some toll roads.  But you pay for that convenience with higher prices.

Just like you pay for the convenience of stopping at a 7-11 instead of going to the big-box grocery store.

Some have higher prices, some don't.  I find the Illinois Tollway oases to be comparable for fuel to off-tollway gas stations.  In the south suburbs, the Lincoln Oasis can be cheaper than some of the stations in South Holland (but more expensive than either waiting until Joliet or Indiana - that's the cost of being in Cook County).  The Ohio Turnpike service plazas can be marginally higher than off-turnpike options, but not crazy (more like a few pennies).  On the other hand, the Indiana Toll Road travel plazas are more expensive than off-toll road options, and I choose to use the Meijer in Sturgis, Michigan instead as I can get a lower gas price and a discount (and even mperks coupons if offered at the time).

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 09:24:58 PM

Quote from: vdeane on July 03, 2021, 09:15:50 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 11:52:33 AM
"Economic theory isn't everything." That is a strawman fallacy, no one said it was.

You are.  Your entire argument rests on a belief that economic theory is everything.  As was mentioned, nobody is disputing that gouging isn't an economic term, just arguing that there are factors beyond economics that need to be considered.  YOU are the one arguing that any argument or consideration not rooted entirely in economic theory is invalid.

Nope, sorry, swing and a miss again. No one has put forth any kind of coherent argument that proves why "gOUuginG" is bad, or how we can draw a clear distinction at which point prices become so. If you want to talk about things other than economics that is fine, but quit pretending like your non-economic values can save face on the gouging issue. Either we have a moral obligation to provide people with gasoline for free, or we don't. There is no morality about pricing, which is the claim that is repeatedly being used here.

For one making accusations about flinging strawmen around, you seem to have a neverending supply.

Quote from: Rothman on July 03, 2021, 10:57:04 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 09:24:58 PM

Quote from: vdeane on July 03, 2021, 09:15:50 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 11:52:33 AM
"Economic theory isn't everything." That is a strawman fallacy, no one said it was.

You are.  Your entire argument rests on a belief that economic theory is everything.  As was mentioned, nobody is disputing that gouging isn't an economic term, just arguing that there are factors beyond economics that need to be considered.  YOU are the one arguing that any argument or consideration not rooted entirely in economic theory is invalid.

Nope, sorry, swing and a miss again. No one has put forth any kind of coherent argument that proves why "gOUuginG" is bad, or how we can draw a clear distinction at which point prices become so. If you want to talk about things other than economics that is fine, but quit pretending like your non-economic values can save face on the gouging issue. Either we have a moral obligation to provide people with gasoline for free, or we don't. There is no morality about pricing, which is the claim that is repeatedly being used here.

For one making accusations about flinging strawmen around, you seem to have a neverending supply.

Its only a strawman if I misrepresent the argument, which I did not. Importantly, it is not a strawman to point out why the argument does not address the issue at hand or is otherwise faulty, big difference.

"Price gouging" is a lot like that time-honored description of obscenity: one may not be able to define it, but one knows it when one sees it.

What do you call charging an inflated price to a captive audience? Or sharply increasing prices prior to, or in the wake of, some sort of random event? (Like marking up plywood or generators in advance of a hurricane, or on kerosene heaters during a prolonged power outage in winter?)

Most states have legal definitions of price gouging and prohibit it in certain situations.

Perhaps a more fitting term might be collusion. It happens frequently in communities concerning gas prices. It was even news a few years ago when one gas station in Clay County, Ky., was significantly undercutting the other stations on prices and they were complaining and putting pressure on that station to increase its prices to match everyone else in town.

Suppose there was a Wendy's in Vail or Frisco (or whatever ski resort town in Colorado) that charged regular menu prices on its items while the McDonald's and Burger King continued to mark up prices beyond franchise norms?

My point is that service plazas, especially those on closed turnpike systems, charge inflated prices because they more or less have a captive audience. That, to me, is gouging, whether or not economists (or pseudo or amateur Highway Star economists) have a definition of it as such.

It's been years since I drove on a closed turnpike system, but my rule was always to make sure I had a full tank of gas before I entered one for a trip of any distance, so I wouldn't have to buy gas and pay the inflated prices. I think I had to get gas one time on the NY Thruway and was a bit surprised it wasn't significantly higher than off-turnpike stations, but I'm the type who will skip one station for another if the price is one cent cheaper. I have no brand loyalty for gas.

Quote from: hbelkins on July 03, 2021, 11:43:24 PM
"Price gouging" is a lot like that time-honored description of obscenity: one may not be able to define it, but one knows it when one sees it.

What do you call charging an inflated price to a captive audience? Or sharply increasing prices prior to, or in the wake of, some sort of random event? (Like marking up plywood or generators in advance of a hurricane, or on kerosene heaters during a prolonged power outage in winter?)

Most states have legal definitions of price gouging and prohibit it in certain situations.

Perhaps a more fitting term might be collusion. It happens frequently in communities concerning gas prices. It was even news a few years ago when one gas station in Clay County, Ky., was significantly undercutting the other stations on prices and they were complaining and putting pressure on that station to increase its prices to match everyone else in town.

Suppose there was a Wendy's in Vail or Frisco (or whatever ski resort town in Colorado) that charged regular menu prices on its items while the McDonald's and Burger King continued to mark up prices beyond franchise norms?

My point is that service plazas, especially those on closed turnpike systems, charge inflated prices because they more or less have a captive audience. That, to me, is gouging, whether or not economists (or pseudo or amateur Highway Star economists) have a definition of it as such.

It's been years since I drove on a closed turnpike system, but my rule was always to make sure I had a full tank of gas before I entered one for a trip of any distance, so I wouldn't have to buy gas and pay the inflated prices. I think I had to get gas one time on the NY Thruway and was a bit surprised it wasn't significantly higher than off-turnpike stations, but I'm the type who will skip one station for another if the price is one cent cheaper. I have no brand loyalty for gas.

"one knows it when one sees it"

Yes because that approach is famous for its fairness, accuracy, and conformity to the rule of law.
What it really means is "its gOUginG when its more than I think is fair", which is entirely personal and arbitrary. It has no relation to the science.
Prices are set by what a buyer will pay, it does not matter if it is a "captive audience" if buyers are not willing to pay the price.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 04, 2021, 03:23:01 AM
Prices are set by what a buyer will pay, it does not matter if it is a "captive audience" if buyers are not willing to pay the price.

They're not willing to pay $5-6 per gallon of gas, and then they're shocked when they realize that's what the price was. The prices at those stations aren't posted, and most airport stations (at other airports) only charge up to 50¢ more than most stations, not several dollars.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 09:24:58 PM

Quote from: vdeane on July 03, 2021, 09:15:50 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 11:52:33 AM
"Economic theory isn't everything." That is a strawman fallacy, no one said it was.

You are.  Your entire argument rests on a belief that economic theory is everything.  As was mentioned, nobody is disputing that gouging isn't an economic term, just arguing that there are factors beyond economics that need to be considered.  YOU are the one arguing that any argument or consideration not rooted entirely in economic theory is invalid.

Nope, sorry, swing and a miss again. No one has put forth any kind of coherent argument that proves why "gOUuginG" is bad, or how we can draw a clear distinction at which point prices become so. If you want to talk about things other than economics that is fine, but quit pretending like your non-economic values can save face on the gouging issue. Either we have a moral obligation to provide people with gasoline for free, or we don't. There is no morality about pricing, which is the claim that is repeatedly being used here.

"There is no morality about pricing" is completely an opinion.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 03, 2021, 09:33:48 PM
What tastes better, an overpriced burger from a highway rest area or corporate boot leather? Cause I think there's some folks in this thread that have some experience tasting both...

I'm beginning to think a certain someone in this thread cuts his ground meat from a particular part of the anatomy.

---

Meanwhile, economic theory does not prove anything as to whether it is or is not convenient to exit the highway for services, despite what the troll thinks. He flat-out refused to engage with my comment about how it can be quite preferable to have a choice of gas stations or restaurants spread over a small area with shorter lines, and fewer parked cars/people driving every which way, at each of them. Instead, I was told I was wrong because some people prefer to use the service areas and pay more, which is a complete non-sequitur.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 11:24:36 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 03, 2021, 10:57:04 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 09:24:58 PM

Quote from: vdeane on July 03, 2021, 09:15:50 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 03, 2021, 11:52:33 AM
"Economic theory isn't everything." That is a strawman fallacy, no one said it was.

You are.  Your entire argument rests on a belief that economic theory is everything.  As was mentioned, nobody is disputing that gouging isn't an economic term, just arguing that there are factors beyond economics that need to be considered.  YOU are the one arguing that any argument or consideration not rooted entirely in economic theory is invalid.

Nope, sorry, swing and a miss again. No one has put forth any kind of coherent argument that proves why "gOUuginG" is bad, or how we can draw a clear distinction at which point prices become so. If you want to talk about things other than economics that is fine, but quit pretending like your non-economic values can save face on the gouging issue. Either we have a moral obligation to provide people with gasoline for free, or we don't. There is no morality about pricing, which is the claim that is repeatedly being used here.

For one making accusations about flinging strawmen around, you seem to have a neverending supply.

Its only a strawman if I misrepresent the argument, which I did not. Importantly, it is not a strawman to point out why the argument does not address the issue at hand or is otherwise faulty, big difference.

And now you show your misunderstanding of what a strawman is.

I don't quite understand why everyone here puts in the time and effort to argue with somebody who time and time again has shown to provoke such arguments.

Because it's the Internet and it's fun.

Quote from: GaryV on July 04, 2021, 01:04:47 PM
Because it's the Internet and it's fun.

(https://spinsucks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Social-Media-Crisis.jpg)

"gOUuginG" = childish.  I'm done with this thread.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 04, 2021, 03:23:01 AM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 03, 2021, 11:43:24 PM
"Price gouging" is a lot like that time-honored description of obscenity: one may not be able to define it, but one knows it when one sees it.

What do you call charging an inflated price to a captive audience? Or sharply increasing prices prior to, or in the wake of, some sort of random event? (Like marking up plywood or generators in advance of a hurricane, or on kerosene heaters during a prolonged power outage in winter?)

Most states have legal definitions of price gouging and prohibit it in certain situations.

Perhaps a more fitting term might be collusion. It happens frequently in communities concerning gas prices. It was even news a few years ago when one gas station in Clay County, Ky., was significantly undercutting the other stations on prices and they were complaining and putting pressure on that station to increase its prices to match everyone else in town.

Suppose there was a Wendy's in Vail or Frisco (or whatever ski resort town in Colorado) that charged regular menu prices on its items while the McDonald's and Burger King continued to mark up prices beyond franchise norms?

My point is that service plazas, especially those on closed turnpike systems, charge inflated prices because they more or less have a captive audience. That, to me, is gouging, whether or not economists (or pseudo or amateur Highway Star economists) have a definition of it as such.

It's been years since I drove on a closed turnpike system, but my rule was always to make sure I had a full tank of gas before I entered one for a trip of any distance, so I wouldn't have to buy gas and pay the inflated prices. I think I had to get gas one time on the NY Thruway and was a bit surprised it wasn't significantly higher than off-turnpike stations, but I'm the type who will skip one station for another if the price is one cent cheaper. I have no brand loyalty for gas.

"one knows it when one sees it"

Yes because that approach is famous for its fairness, accuracy, and conformity to the rule of law.
What it really means is "its gOUginG when its more than I think is fair", which is entirely personal and arbitrary. It has no relation to the science.
Prices are set by what a buyer will pay, it does not matter if it is a "captive audience" if buyers are not willing to pay the price.

Did I not say that there doesn't have to be a definition of "price gouging" in some economics textbook for it to exist?

And did I not say that some jurisdictions actually do have a legal definition of price gouging? And those definitions have nothing to do with this "science" of which you speak?

Quote from: hbelkins on July 04, 2021, 04:47:14 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 04, 2021, 03:23:01 AM

Quote from: hbelkins on July 03, 2021, 11:43:24 PM
"Price gouging" is a lot like that time-honored description of obscenity: one may not be able to define it, but one knows it when one sees it.

What do you call charging an inflated price to a captive audience? Or sharply increasing prices prior to, or in the wake of, some sort of random event? (Like marking up plywood or generators in advance of a hurricane, or on kerosene heaters during a prolonged power outage in winter?)

Most states have legal definitions of price gouging and prohibit it in certain situations.

Perhaps a more fitting term might be collusion. It happens frequently in communities concerning gas prices. It was even news a few years ago when one gas station in Clay County, Ky., was significantly undercutting the other stations on prices and they were complaining and putting pressure on that station to increase its prices to match everyone else in town.

Suppose there was a Wendy's in Vail or Frisco (or whatever ski resort town in Colorado) that charged regular menu prices on its items while the McDonald's and Burger King continued to mark up prices beyond franchise norms?

My point is that service plazas, especially those on closed turnpike systems, charge inflated prices because they more or less have a captive audience. That, to me, is gouging, whether or not economists (or pseudo or amateur Highway Star economists) have a definition of it as such.

It's been years since I drove on a closed turnpike system, but my rule was always to make sure I had a full tank of gas before I entered one for a trip of any distance, so I wouldn't have to buy gas and pay the inflated prices. I think I had to get gas one time on the NY Thruway and was a bit surprised it wasn't significantly higher than off-turnpike stations, but I'm the type who will skip one station for another if the price is one cent cheaper. I have no brand loyalty for gas.

"one knows it when one sees it"

Yes because that approach is famous for its fairness, accuracy, and conformity to the rule of law.
What it really means is "its gOUginG when its more than I think is fair", which is entirely personal and arbitrary. It has no relation to the science.
Prices are set by what a buyer will pay, it does not matter if it is a "captive audience" if buyers are not willing to pay the price.

Did I not say that there doesn't have to be a definition of "price gouging" in some economics textbook for it to exist?

And did I not say that some jurisdictions actually do have a legal definition of price gouging? And those definitions have nothing to do with this "science" of which you speak?

"those definitions have nothing to do with this "science" of which you speak?" no they do not. Unfortunately the law need not be based on science, and frequently is not. That is the nature of mob rule.

No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

Interesting thought: how many counties are completely unserved by train or bus (or their city bus system is completely disconnected from the rest of public transit)? Also allow up to maybe 2 miles of walking each way.

Quote from: 1 on July 04, 2021, 06:00:19 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

Interesting thought: how many counties are completely unserved by train or bus (or their city bus system is completely disconnected from the rest of public transit)? Also allow up to maybe 2 miles of walking each way.

A lot more than you think, I'd imagine. I live in the third-largest city in my state, the next closest county is literally right across the river, and the only reason that county wouldn't qualify is because it happens to have an Amtrak stop in its county seat. I would say that of Oklahoma's 77 counties, my guess would be that 68 of them would qualify.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 07:43:43 PM

Quote from: 1 on July 04, 2021, 06:00:19 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

Interesting thought: how many counties are completely unserved by train or bus (or their city bus system is completely disconnected from the rest of public transit)? Also allow up to maybe 2 miles of walking each way.

A lot more than you think, I'd imagine. I live in the third-largest city in my state, the next closest county is literally right across the river, and the only reason that county wouldn't qualify is because it happens to have an Amtrak stop in its county seat. I would say that of Oklahoma's 77 counties, my guess would be that 68 of them would qualify.

What about Greyhound and its competitors?

Quote from: 1 on July 04, 2021, 07:54:15 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 07:43:43 PM

Quote from: 1 on July 04, 2021, 06:00:19 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

Interesting thought: how many counties are completely unserved by train or bus (or their city bus system is completely disconnected from the rest of public transit)? Also allow up to maybe 2 miles of walking each way.

A lot more than you think, I'd imagine. I live in the third-largest city in my state, the next closest county is literally right across the river, and the only reason that county wouldn't qualify is because it happens to have an Amtrak stop in its county seat. I would say that of Oklahoma's 77 counties, my guess would be that 68 of them would qualify.

What about Greyhound and its competitors?

Nope.

There are only 6 counties in Oklahoma with Greyhound stops that aren't also serviced by Amtrak. So that gets it down to 62.

I don't know of any Greyhound competitors that operate in Oklahoma.

Given the troll's use of "science,"  I wonder whether he's a viatologist.

(My autocorrect couldn't find that word. 👍)

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

I would scratch the QED and insert a Non sequitur there.

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 12:41:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

I would scratch the QED and insert a Non sequitur there.

Good thing this isn't a horse track, so you can't scratch anything! QED.

Quote from: 1 on July 04, 2021, 06:00:19 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

Interesting thought: how many counties are completely unserved by train or bus (or their city bus system is completely disconnected from the rest of public transit)? Also allow up to maybe 2 miles of walking each way.

I'd venture to guess most of Kentucky's rural counties, although there are some taxi-like public transportation agencies in this area that don't run regular routes, but operate on a pickup basis.

Many of our counties don't have a railroad, and the ones that do, few of them have passenger service.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2021, 05:11:47 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 12:41:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

I would scratch the QED and insert a Non sequitur there.

Good thing this isn't a horse track, so you can't scratch anything! QED.

You're like that guy in analysis that writes one sentence proofs and puts QED at the end, only to have the TA explain that its not a proof.

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 04, 2021, 08:05:04 PM
Given the troll's use of "science,"  I wonder whether he's a viatologist.

(My autocorrect couldn't find that word. 👍)

HighwayStar is calrog

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 08:28:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2021, 05:11:47 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 12:41:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

I would scratch the QED and insert a Non sequitur there.

Good thing this isn't a horse track, so you can't scratch anything! QED.

You're like that guy in analysis that writes one sentence proofs and puts QED at the end, only to have the TA explain that its not a proof.

QED.

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 05, 2021, 09:18:10 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 08:28:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2021, 05:11:47 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 12:41:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

I would scratch the QED and insert a Non sequitur there.

Good thing this isn't a horse track, so you can't scratch anything! QED.

You're like that guy in analysis that writes one sentence proofs and puts QED at the end, only to have the TA explain that its not a proof.

QED.

Queen Elizabeth Drive?

Quote from: LilianaUwU on July 05, 2021, 09:21:38 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 05, 2021, 09:18:10 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 08:28:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2021, 05:11:47 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 12:41:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

I would scratch the QED and insert a Non sequitur there.

Good thing this isn't a horse track, so you can't scratch anything! QED.

You're like that guy in analysis that writes one sentence proofs and puts QED at the end, only to have the TA explain that its not a proof.

QED.

Queen Elizabeth Drive?

No. QED.

Quote from: Rothman on July 05, 2021, 09:24:39 PM

Quote from: LilianaUwU on July 05, 2021, 09:21:38 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 05, 2021, 09:18:10 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 08:28:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2021, 05:11:47 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 12:41:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

I would scratch the QED and insert a Non sequitur there.

Good thing this isn't a horse track, so you can't scratch anything! QED.

You're like that guy in analysis that writes one sentence proofs and puts QED at the end, only to have the TA explain that its not a proof.

QED.

Queen Elizabeth Drive?

No. QED.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SMUURG8oZ4

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 08:28:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2021, 05:11:47 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 12:41:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

I would scratch the QED and insert a Non sequitur there.

Good thing this isn't a horse track, so you can't scratch anything! QED.

You're like that guy in analysis that writes one sentence proofs and puts QED at the end, only to have the TA explain that its not a proof.

The TA only has any authority in that situation because they don't gouge on their gas prices. QED.

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 06, 2021, 12:27:23 AM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 08:28:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2021, 05:11:47 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 12:41:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

I would scratch the QED and insert a Non sequitur there.

Good thing this isn't a horse track, so you can't scratch anything! QED.

You're like that guy in analysis that writes one sentence proofs and puts QED at the end, only to have the TA explain that its not a proof.

The TA only has any authority in that situation because they don't gouge on their gas prices. QED.

I'm sure there is one somewhere that does, since "GoUgE" simply means more than someone wants to pay.  :pan:

Quote from: Mr. Matté on July 05, 2021, 09:39:02 PM

Quote from: Rothman on July 05, 2021, 09:24:39 PM

Quote from: LilianaUwU on July 05, 2021, 09:21:38 PM

Quote from: sprjus4 on July 05, 2021, 09:18:10 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 08:28:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 05, 2021, 05:11:47 PM

Quote from: HighwayStar on July 05, 2021, 12:41:30 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2021, 05:50:38 PM
No, the nature of mob-rule is clinching counties. Which you can't do if the gas price is too high. QED.

I would scratch the QED and insert a Non sequitur there.

Good thing this isn't a horse track, so you can't scratch anything! QED.

You're like that guy in analysis that writes one sentence proofs and puts QED at the end, only to have the TA explain that its not a proof.

QED.

Queen Elizabeth Drive?

No. QED.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SMUURG8oZ4

I never knew Jack McCoy looked that young!

Quote from: GaryV on June 30, 2021, 11:30:05 AM

Quote from: dvferyance on June 30, 2021, 11:26:01 AM
If you count the huge truck stop on I-80 in Walcott IA. It's basically like a tollway service plaza only bigger.

You get off the freeway at an exit.  It's not a service plaza.  It may serve a similar purpose, but it is not exclusive to vehicles on I-80.

QuoteI know Canada has several along ON-401.

Yes, these are service plazas, and have been noted above.

But you can also argue there are non commercial rest areas you have to use an exit for to get to. I am sure that 99.999999999999999999% of all traffic that uses that truck stop is I-80 traffic. While you can access it from Scott County road Y40 I am sure next to none of the traffic it gets is traffic just solely going through on that road.

I bet plenty of the residents of Walcott go there.