This morning I had to change a punctured tire on my car. As I'm using the lug wrench I can feel my wedding ring obstructing my grip slightly which led me to put it in my pocket. I've found that I have a similar issues when using tools, performing manual tasks and even lifting weights at the gym. In those particular instances even Silicon rings still feel like a grip obstruction. Is this just a me thing or is this a common phenomenon for other married people?
Also, as dull as my reasonings are I can imagine some forum members might have some more interesting takes on when they might not wear their wedding ring.
I do not think that my parents have worn their wedding rings in a long time. I cannot think of a particular reason offhand.
My wife and I had bands that were too small to begin with and then we got fat quickly after marriage. Haven't worn rings in years.
I take mine off if I'm working on the car. I also leave it at home if I go for a bike ride, this because once I went to signal a left turn and my ring flew off my hand and rolled towards a storm drain, at which point I dropped the bike and raced after the ring (and caught it in time).
always :D
Hiking, because my fingers swell up
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 08, 2021, 01:12:43 PM
I take mine off if I’m working on the car. I also leave it at home if I go for a bike ride, this because once I went to signal a left turn and my ring flew off my hand and rolled towards a storm drain, at which point I dropped the bike and raced after the ring (and caught it in time).
My God that's a story right there.
When I was a signal supervisor on the railroad, we got serious about safety and started a "no jewelry" policy. A wife of one of my maintainers called me personally to cuss me out about the new policy, insisting that her husband was going to start cheating on her at work. I assured her that the folks working near his "office" at Glenwood Tower in Pittsburgh had assured me that he hardly ever came out of the basement there to get any work done, so they would certainly tell me if he started bringing a girl to work with him.
Quote from: texaskdog on August 08, 2021, 01:33:55 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 08, 2021, 01:12:43 PM
I take mine off if I’m working on the car. I also leave it at home if I go for a bike ride, this because once I went to signal a left turn and my ring flew off my hand and rolled towards a storm drain, at which point I dropped the bike and raced after the ring (and caught it in time).
My God that's a story right there.
He encountered a balloon-carrying clown that asked him if he wanted to float.
I don't think I've ever taken mine off other than just to see if I still could (my knuckles got jammed a lot when I played basketball as a kid) and then I put it right back on. I've been married almost six years.
Chris
When working with oils. I've had a few close calls during cold weather, but I wear a little shim underneath the band (losing weight means this is a year-long phenomenon).
My wife tends to remove her rings when baking and cooking; it's a good excuse for me to trot out in order to get samples out of pity.
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 01:52:56 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on August 08, 2021, 01:33:55 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 08, 2021, 01:12:43 PM
I take mine off if I'm working on the car. I also leave it at home if I go for a bike ride, this because once I went to signal a left turn and my ring flew off my hand and rolled towards a storm drain, at which point I dropped the bike and raced after the ring (and caught it in time).
My God that's a story right there.
He encountered a balloon-carrying clown that asked him if he wanted to float.
I would have gone for the cotton candy and rides.
A good question might be when do you wear your wedding ring?
If we are going out to do errands, dinner, social things, I usually wear it.
Hanging around the house, no, though if we have people visiting I do sometimes.
Gym, definitely no. Did it once and it was in the way, even while wearing gloves.
Mowing/landscaping, changing out the battery in the car, etc. no
Aside from the gym I usually wear at least the silicon ring when I leave the house. If it's hot enough out I tend to take it off while I'm out hiking given my finger will begin to get constricted eventually. I don't really wear one at home and can't recall the last time I did.
The only time I take mine off is when I'm in the shower.
Quote from: Alex on August 08, 2021, 02:41:36 PM
A good question might be when do you wear your wedding ring?
....
Other than as noted above, I almost always have it on if I'm awake. I may take it off for some yardwork depending on what I have to do. I take it off to go to sleep and to shave and shower (in the morning I don't put it on until I'm getting dressed after showering). When we first got married, my wife didn't like it that I took it off to go to sleep, so I tried keeping it on and I found it very uncomfortable. Felt like my finger swelled up overnight.
For those of you that barely wear yours, it's interesting to me, because I barely even notice that mine is on. Had this thread not popped up, I think the last time I remember even thinking about my ring was a couple of months ago. It helps that mine is tungsten carbide and therefore pretty much undamageable, but I can't imagine taking it off and putting it on every day. I'd definitely forget where I put it.
Chris
Tungsten carbide is not undamageable. WC rings (:D) can shatter.
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 03:38:23 PM
Tungsten carbide is not undamageable. WC rings (:D) can shatter.
True. Let me rephrase to "undentable" and "unscratchable", two of the reasons I think most of you all take yours off.
Chris
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 08, 2021, 03:40:45 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 03:38:23 PM
Tungsten carbide is not undamageable. WC rings (:D) can shatter.
True. Let me rephrase to "undentable" and "unscratchable", two of the reasons I think most of you all take yours off.
Chris
Took ours off because our fingers were too fat.
Makes sense. I think I've only maybe gained five pounds since my wedding (thankfully).
Chris
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 08, 2021, 04:44:44 PM
Makes sense. I think I've only maybe gained five pounds since my wedding (thankfully).
Chris
Give it time.
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 04:46:58 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 08, 2021, 04:44:44 PM
Makes sense. I think I've only maybe gained five pounds since my wedding (thankfully).
Chris
Give it time.
I actually lost 18 pounds the first year and a half into our marriage. One third of that was from training too much and the other two thirds was from what my Doctor termed an "unknown virus" in December 2019. My ring tends to slide around a lot nowadays as a result.
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 04:46:58 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 08, 2021, 04:44:44 PM
Makes sense. I think I've only maybe gained five pounds since my wedding (thankfully).
Chris
Give it time.
My dad is 6' and peaked at 180 lbs. I'm 6'4" and 185. I think I'll probably be good minus my little bit of dad bod/beer belly.
Chris
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 03:41:35 PM
Took ours off because our fingers were too fat.
I can't get mine off for the same reason. They tried a few weeks ago for knee surgery and failed.
I pretty much never have. 6 years into marriage, my original gold ring slipped off my hand while swimming in a lake. Given the lake was about 30' deep, and due to the density of gold, that was gone before I could even react to it. Last 10 years I've had a titanium one that's sized a tad tighter. No issues.
I had no idea what wedding rings until I came of age, due to the fact that I don't think my parents ever wore one.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 08, 2021, 04:52:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 04:46:58 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 08, 2021, 04:44:44 PM
Makes sense. I think I've only maybe gained five pounds since my wedding (thankfully).
Chris
Give it time.
I actually lost 18 pounds the first year and a half into our marriage. One third of that was from training too much and the other two thirds was from what my Doctor termed an "unknown virus" in December 2019. My ring tends to slide around a lot nowadays as a result.
Give it time.
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 08, 2021, 05:30:31 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 04:46:58 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 08, 2021, 04:44:44 PM
Makes sense. I think I've only maybe gained five pounds since my wedding (thankfully).
Chris
Give it time.
My dad is 6' and peaked at 180 lbs. I'm 6'4" and 185. I think I'll probably be good minus my little bit of dad bod/beer belly.
Chris
Yeah, let's go with that.
Having kids adds weight, especially around the ages of 2-5 when their eyes are wider than their stomachs, and the bank account is leaner than your physique.
I don't wear mine, both because of fear of losing it (not that it has much monetary value, only sentimental), and because of a psychological thing about it getting stuck on my finger and me being unable to take it off. Any time I've tried wearing it, it bothered me to the point that I took it off within a couple of hours. I keep it in the safe.
I don't wear my wedding ring because I don't like wearing jewelry. Don't wear a college ring or a watch either. It's just not comfortable for me. My wife wears her diamond engagement ring but not the wedding band.
I generally put mine on any time I grab my wallet and keys to go somewhere, unless it's something like the gym, skiing, a beach, things like that. Then it comes off when I put the wallet back on the nightstand. I also remove it when cooking that involves handling raw meats or anything generally messy that would likely be requiring frequent hand washing.
I never wore any kind of jewelry before my wedding, and didn't think I'd wear the ring regularly, but it didn't take long for me to get used to it.
Mine stays on all the time unless I'm doing something when I think I might lose it, or it might get hung up in something and damage either it or my finger. (I know someone who was dunking a basketball and the ring somehow got caught on one of the hooks that attach the net to the rim; it was a quite painful ordeal). Sometimes if I'm traveling I will take it off and put it someplace secure so there's no danger of me losing it.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 08, 2021, 09:07:06 PM
Mine stays on all the time unless I'm doing something when I think I might lose it, or it might get hung up in something and damage either it or my finger. (I know someone who was dunking a basketball and the ring somehow got caught on one of the hooks that attach the net to the rim; it was a quite painful ordeal). Sometimes if I'm traveling I will take it off and put it someplace secure so there's no danger of me losing it.
You can dunk?
I take it off if I'm doing something that may have a snag danger, but that's extremely rare. Haven't in many years.
When I was in the Air Force, I would pocket my ring whenever I was working in or around aircraft. It was SOP. Saw enough bloody pictures of detached digits. Once in a while some guy would be reluctant to remove his ring and a loadmaster would ask him what his wife would mind more, him taking his wedding band off or him risking taking his finger off.
When I was in college, I had a friend who actually had is ring finger ripped out of its socket when his ring snagged on a protruding nail on a sashless window frame in an interior wall when he jumped through the opening. Unfortunately, the attempt to surgically re-attach the finger was unsuccessful. That was in 1983 and it still gives me the willies thinking about it.
I generally wear my wedding ring 24/7, though I do take it off in messy situations (like working with raw meat before cooking/grilling, etc).
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 06:23:29 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 08, 2021, 05:30:31 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 04:46:58 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 08, 2021, 04:44:44 PM
Makes sense. I think I've only maybe gained five pounds since my wedding (thankfully).
Chris
Give it time.
My dad is 6' and peaked at 180 lbs. I'm 6'4" and 185. I think I'll probably be good minus my little bit of dad bod/beer belly.
Chris
Yeah, let's go with that.
I mean, I eat very healthy (no fast food, no deep-fried, less red meat than most, fresh veggies and fruits with every meal, etc) and I exercise pretty regularly. Combined with genetics, I think it's safe to say I'll never see >200 lbs. I don't think I'll have to worry about sizing up my ring anytime soon.
Chris
I never take it off, except when playing the cajón (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caj%C3%B3n) or mixing messy food by hand in the kitchen.
Well, on purpose at least. I once lost it at work. Then I was pretty sure I lost it while throwing a bunch of stuff into the dumpster. So I spent the next hour digging through the dumpster. Never found the ring, bought a replacement.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 08, 2021, 04:52:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 04:46:58 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 08, 2021, 04:44:44 PM
Makes sense. I think I've only maybe gained five pounds since my wedding (thankfully).
Chris
Give it time.
I actually lost 18 pounds the first year and a half into our marriage. One third of that was from training too much and the other two thirds was from what my Doctor termed an "unknown virus" in December 2019. My ring tends to slide around a lot nowadays as a result.
The first covid case!
All the time, 24/7.
Quote from: texaskdog on August 09, 2021, 02:18:57 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 08, 2021, 04:52:34 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 04:46:58 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 08, 2021, 04:44:44 PM
Makes sense. I think I've only maybe gained five pounds since my wedding (thankfully).
Chris
Give it time.
I actually lost 18 pounds the first year and a half into our marriage. One third of that was from training too much and the other two thirds was from what my Doctor termed an "unknown virus" in December 2019. My ring tends to slide around a lot nowadays as a result.
The first covid case!
Who knows, there was some people who died in December 2019 in California that had COVID in their system apparently when re-autopsied. The breathing problems, lingering digestive issues and loss of taste I had were nothing I've ever experienced before. Either way it really doesn't matter and there is no way to prove/disprove what it was now. I do think it is amusing in retrospect that my doctor did tell me that when I visited her after three weeks.
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 09, 2021, 10:42:10 AM
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 06:23:29 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 08, 2021, 05:30:31 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 08, 2021, 04:46:58 PM
Quote from: jayhawkco on August 08, 2021, 04:44:44 PM
Makes sense. I think I've only maybe gained five pounds since my wedding (thankfully).
Chris
Give it time.
My dad is 6' and peaked at 180 lbs. I'm 6'4" and 185. I think I'll probably be good minus my little bit of dad bod/beer belly.
Chris
Yeah, let's go with that.
I mean, I eat very healthy (no fast food, no deep-fried, less red meat than most, fresh veggies and fruits with every meal, etc) and I exercise pretty regularly. Combined with genetics, I think it's safe to say I'll never see >200 lbs. I don't think I'll have to worry about sizing up my ring anytime soon.
Chris
Very well.
Wow. Geez. I'm 40 years old, and I weigh the same as I did in high school.
Not everyone gains weight.
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 03:41:45 PM
Wow. Geez. I'm 40 years old, and I weigh the same as I did in high school.
Not everyone gains weight.
We can wait and see on that one.
Quote from: Rothman on August 09, 2021, 03:42:15 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 03:41:45 PM
Wow. Geez. I'm 40 years old, and I weigh the same as I did in high school.
Not everyone gains weight.
We can wait and see on that one.
It's the same way with my dad, who is now 69 years old. I don't think his weight has varied by more than 15 pounds since he was in high school. And my mom, who weighs even less than she did when she was younger. And my sister, who I don't think has ever weighed more than 100 pounds her whole life.
How long are you suggesting I should wait?
Quote from: Rothman on August 09, 2021, 03:42:15 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 03:41:45 PM
Wow. Geez. I'm 40 years old, and I weigh the same as I did in high school.
Not everyone gains weight.
We can wait and see on that one.
When I took weight lifting more serious than I did cardio I managed to bulk up to 215 pounds by the time I was 19. I'm currently at 182 but I've been as low as 155 in the last two decades when I was training for my first Marathon. Granted, in my case I'm probably more aware and can affect weight loss/weight gain than the average person given I still distance run. My brother is like me also but more focused on weight training. I think watching our parents balloon and have mid-life health problems likely affected our attitudes on weight gain and being sedentary.
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 03:46:09 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 09, 2021, 03:42:15 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 03:41:45 PM
Wow. Geez. I'm 40 years old, and I weigh the same as I did in high school.
Not everyone gains weight.
We can wait and see on that one.
It's the same way with my dad, who is now 69 years old. I don't think his weight has varied by more than 15 pounds since he was in high school. And my mom, who weighs even less than she did when she was younger. And my sister, who I don't think has ever weighed more than 100 pounds her whole life.
How long are you suggesting I should wait?
*shrug*
I dunno. I didn't get fat until I was in my 40s.
(Back on topic... I'm skinny enough that my wedding ring is pretty loose around my finger. It has to be because, if it were any tighter, I wouldn't be able to get it over my knuckle. When I was first married, I wasn't used to wearing a ring yet, and I used to play with it on my finger while driving my delivery route–no A/C in the truck, window down all the way, arm out the side in the breeze. Once day, it accidentally slipped past my knuckle, and I just barely got control of it before it hit pavement at 62 mph.)
When do I not wear my wedding ring? I'll let you know hopefully within the next few years. :spin:
I don't even have a girlfriend yet
Doesn't mean you can't wear a wedding ring.
Some women wear one to avoid being hit on all the time.
The Planeteers wore rings, get enough friends together and you can summon Captain Planet. Just don't be the guy that gets "Heart" as his ring power.
Both of us only wear our rings in public. We have a ring holder on the bureau that the rings go on and off and it's habit, just like grabbing keys and wallet/purse.
That said, I don't wear my ring when playing or conducting, since for some reason I become hyper-aware of its presence and the (admittedly minuscule) extra weight during those times (I don't wear a watch for the same reason).
Quote from: DTComposer on August 09, 2021, 07:29:04 PM
I don't wear my ring when playing or conducting, since for some reason I become hyper-aware of its presence and the (admittedly minuscule) extra weight during those times
I wonder if that's all in your head. That is, you're not noticing the extra weight as extra weight. But rather, you feel the ring against your skin (or just see it), you know it
has weight, and your brain then tricks you into "feeling" the weight.
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 06:27:49 PM
Doesn't mean you can't wear a wedding ring.
Some women wear one to avoid being hit on all the time.
That's bizarre
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 09, 2021, 09:02:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 06:27:49 PM
Doesn't mean you can't wear a wedding ring.
Some women wear one to avoid being hit on all the time.
That's bizarre
A lot of them do this at the gym I go to so the Brotastic gang will get the hint that they aren't interested. Most them also wear headphones and a low hat so it's hard for dudes to make eye contact or start a conversation.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 09, 2021, 09:02:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 06:27:49 PM
Doesn't mean you can't wear a wedding ring.
Some women wear one to avoid being hit on all the time.
That's bizarre
Not at all. After my father passed, my mother did just that when she went on her casino trips. She had no interest in being hit on while playing the slots. I knew she meant no disrespect to my dad.
Quote from: dlsterner on August 09, 2021, 10:51:27 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 09, 2021, 09:02:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 06:27:49 PM
Doesn't mean you can't wear a wedding ring.
Some women wear one to avoid being hit on all the time.
That's bizarre
Not at all. After my father passed, my mother did just that when she went on her casino trips. She had no interest in being hit on while playing the slots. I knew she meant no disrespect to my dad.
That's different, she was married before. I'm talking about people who were never married.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 09, 2021, 11:37:20 PM
Quote from: dlsterner on August 09, 2021, 10:51:27 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 09, 2021, 09:02:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 06:27:49 PM
Doesn't mean you can't wear a wedding ring.
Some women wear one to avoid being hit on all the time.
That's bizarre
Not at all. After my father passed, my mother did just that when she went on her casino trips. She had no interest in being hit on while playing the slots. I knew she meant no disrespect to my dad.
That's different, she was married before. I'm talking about people who were never married.
Have you ever been hit by someone that you weren't interested in and they wouldn't back off? I guarantee any moderately attractive woman has numerous times. Hence the reason why some do things like wear fake wedding rings.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 09, 2021, 11:47:23 PM
Have you ever been hit by someone that you weren't interested in and they wouldn't back off?
That's assault.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 09, 2021, 09:02:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 06:27:49 PM
Doesn't mean you can't wear a wedding ring.
Some women wear one to avoid being hit on all the time.
That's bizarre
It's quite common.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 09, 2021, 11:47:23 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 09, 2021, 11:37:20 PM
Quote from: dlsterner on August 09, 2021, 10:51:27 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 09, 2021, 09:02:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 06:27:49 PM
Doesn't mean you can't wear a wedding ring.
Some women wear one to avoid being hit on all the time.
That's bizarre
Not at all. After my father passed, my mother did just that when she went on her casino trips. She had no interest in being hit on while playing the slots. I knew she meant no disrespect to my dad.
That's different, she was married before. I'm talking about people who were never married.
Have you ever been hit by someone that you weren't interested in and they wouldn't back off? I guarantee any moderately attractive woman has numerous times. Hence the reason why some do things like wear fake wedding rings.
How about we just not hit on women without their permission?
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 10, 2021, 12:01:56 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 09, 2021, 11:47:23 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 09, 2021, 11:37:20 PM
Quote from: dlsterner on August 09, 2021, 10:51:27 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 09, 2021, 09:02:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 06:27:49 PM
Doesn't mean you can't wear a wedding ring.
Some women wear one to avoid being hit on all the time.
That's bizarre
Not at all. After my father passed, my mother did just that when she went on her casino trips. She had no interest in being hit on while playing the slots. I knew she meant no disrespect to my dad.
That's different, she was married before. I'm talking about people who were never married.
Have you ever been hit by someone that you weren't interested in and they wouldn't back off? I guarantee any moderately attractive woman has numerous times. Hence the reason why some do things like wear fake wedding rings.
How about we just not hit on women without their permission?
Good idea. You enforce that rule.
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 07:39:35 PM
Quote from: DTComposer on August 09, 2021, 07:29:04 PM
I don't wear my ring when playing or conducting, since for some reason I become hyper-aware of its presence and the (admittedly minuscule) extra weight during those times
I wonder if that's all in your head. That is, you're not noticing the extra weight as extra weight. But rather, you feel the ring against your skin (or just see it), you know it has weight, and your brain then tricks you into "feeling" the weight.
Oh yes, I'm sure it's in my head. But, I do avoid the occasional clicking of ring against keys by not wearing it when playing.
Quote from: Rothman on August 10, 2021, 12:03:06 AM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 10, 2021, 12:01:56 AM
How about we just not hit on women without their permission?
Good idea. You enforce that rule.
:clap:
Until that time, let's all agree that a single woman wearing a wedding ring isn't necessarily acting unreasonably.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 10, 2021, 12:01:56 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on August 09, 2021, 11:47:23 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 09, 2021, 11:37:20 PM
Quote from: dlsterner on August 09, 2021, 10:51:27 PM
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on August 09, 2021, 09:02:12 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2021, 06:27:49 PM
Doesn't mean you can't wear a wedding ring.
Some women wear one to avoid being hit on all the time.
That's bizarre
Not at all. After my father passed, my mother did just that when she went on her casino trips. She had no interest in being hit on while playing the slots. I knew she meant no disrespect to my dad.
That's different, she was married before. I'm talking about people who were never married.
Have you ever been hit by someone that you weren't interested in and they wouldn't back off? I guarantee any moderately attractive woman has numerous times. Hence the reason why some do things like wear fake wedding rings.
How about we just not hit on women without their permission?
How do we do that? Does a woman go up to a man and say, "You have my permission to flirt with me or try to ask me out?" And men aren't supposed to hit on women unless they explicitly show an interest first?
Speaking of wedding rings:
I asked her why she couldn't make up her mind
She said "You don't understand
I'd love to go, but there's something you should know"
She showed me her wedding band(Anybody recognize the song the lyrics are from?)
Here's an embarrassing story that happened to me years ago. I was quite shy around the ladies for many years. In my 20s, I had just taken a new job in a new town and wasn't seeing anyone. I met a woman who was quite pretty and very friendly -- more friendly towards me than most women usually are. So I tightened up my courage and asked her out. She told me, "sorry, I'm married." She wasn't wearing a wedding ring. Every time I saw her afterwards, she was wearing it.
When reading this thread: http://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=29413