These island-like four-line lane markings strike me as a great deal more comprehensible than what's in the MUTCD, or anything else I've ever seen. They're at US 41 and Fruitvale Road in Sarasota, though there could be numerous other installations AFAIK.
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/239622425_4674416039237516_6053039284356343029_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=2c4854&_nc_ohc=wVeRg1aWqS4AX_Yng3K&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=491a37c7273060e06c5848f139411253&oe=6126A309)
I note the HAWK signal. The combination of that plus a roundabout will give certain forum members no end of heartburn! :-D
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 22, 2021, 01:57:59 PM
I note the HAWK signal. The combination of that plus a roundabout will give certain forum members no end of heartburn! :-D
I'm not sure I like the potential for those to cause traffic backups into the roundabout... but I would love to see more multilane roundabouts striped like this.
Quote from: US 89 on August 22, 2021, 02:02:28 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 22, 2021, 01:57:59 PM
I note the HAWK signal. The combination of that plus a roundabout will give certain forum members no end of heartburn! :-D
I'm not sure I like the potential for those to cause traffic backups into the roundabout... but I would love to see more multilane roundabouts striped like this.
I didn't notice the HAWKs, and that's not what the post is about. However, I'd suspect that the primary hazard to pedestrians at roundabouts comes from drivers leaving the roundabout, and I wouldn't be surprised if HAWKs were effective at dealing with that.
The exit from YYJ Airport in Sidney, BC (Victoria) has roundabout with lanes separated by more than just a line. In this case, brick paving is used (
GSV (https://goo.gl/maps/wpfxvfsYAfkYLCdJ6)):
Quote from: jakeroot on September 06, 2017, 11:49:57 PM
Along with the construction of this relatively large dumbell interchange, several roundabouts were added near the airport, including the only proper turbo roundabout that I've seen in North America:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQb71CJl.png&hash=8bcadeca94e516d947d2420cb6c89eea3c4f36cc)
Quote from: jakeroot on August 22, 2021, 03:23:14 PM
The exit from YYJ Airport in Sidney, BC (Victoria) has roundabout with lanes separated by more than just a line. In this case, brick paving is used (GSV (https://goo.gl/maps/wpfxvfsYAfkYLCdJ6)):
Gee, I dunno. With the road at the top being one way into the roundabout, the one-lane part of the circle is useful only for U turns. The fancy paint markings block access to it, making it useless to people who obey traffic law. https://www.google.com/maps/@48.6376413,-123.4334297,127m/data=!3m1!1e3
Quote from: Tom958 on August 22, 2021, 01:55:58 PM
These island-like four-line lane markings strike me as a great deal more comprehensible than what's in the MUTCD, or anything else I've ever seen. They're at US 41 and Fruitvale Road in Sarasota, though there could be numerous other installations AFAIK.
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/239622425_4674416039237516_6053039284356343029_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=2c4854&_nc_ohc=wVeRg1aWqS4AX_Yng3K&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=491a37c7273060e06c5848f139411253&oe=6126A309)
Just wondering how well this works in busy traffic. From my experience overseas, two lanes in the traffic circle seems too little for the intersection of two four-lane streets.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on August 22, 2021, 04:37:19 PM
Quote from: Tom958 on August 22, 2021, 01:55:58 PM
These island-like four-line lane markings strike me as a great deal more comprehensible than what's in the MUTCD, or anything else I've ever seen. They're at US 41 and Fruitvale Road in Sarasota, though there could be numerous other installations AFAIK.
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/239622425_4674416039237516_6053039284356343029_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=2c4854&_nc_ohc=wVeRg1aWqS4AX_Yng3K&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=491a37c7273060e06c5848f139411253&oe=6126A309)
Just wondering how well this works in busy traffic. From my experience overseas, two lanes in the traffic circle seems too little for the intersection of two four-lane streets.
Just follow the SOP:
Build first, think later, counter traffic congestion by press articles telling how great roundabouts are.
Quote from: Tom958 on August 22, 2021, 01:55:58 PM
These island-like four-line lane markings strike me as a great deal more comprehensible than what's in the MUTCD, or anything else I've ever seen. They're at US 41 and Fruitvale Road in Sarasota, though there could be numerous other installations AFAIK.
(https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/239622425_4674416039237516_6053039284356343029_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=2c4854&_nc_ohc=wVeRg1aWqS4AX_Yng3K&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=491a37c7273060e06c5848f139411253&oe=6126A309)
I like this. I'd be interested to see if there have been any studies on this style of marking to determine whether it generates better driver comprehension and lower rates of errant lane changes within the circulating roadway area.
Here are some recently constructed dual line lane marking roundabouts in Fort Myers, Florida:
(https://i.imgur.com/2NkyOxv.png)
https://www.google.com/maps/@26.623128,-81.8395551,277m/data=!3m1!1e3
(https://i.imgur.com/wjDvdMO.png)
https://www.google.com/maps/@26.6229245,-81.8116618,185m/data=!3m1!1e3
Quote from: tradephoric on August 23, 2021, 01:06:02 PM
Here are some recently constructed dual line lane marking roundabouts in Fort Myers, Florida:
Ooh, I like!
Then there's Sterling Heights, MI. Infamous enough that it is locally known simply as "The Roundabout". I've driven it and survived, but never knew how it worked out.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6014412,-83.0312339,96m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en
The other idea was to paint a big bright blue line between the double lines to further direct traffic through the roundabout, similar to what you see at Charlotte Motor Speedway (also similar idea to the example Jake posted above):
(https://i.imgur.com/GtnXGg0.png)
The striping just looks stupidly excessive to me, and the usage of HAWKs coming in and out of the roundabout (implying heavy pedestrian traffic) just makes me ask... Why not just use a traffic signal here?!
Watch the grey car navigate through the roundabout at 0:42. A lot of mistakes were made that day!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXst6sNUFDk
^^^
Unfortunately, that sort of nonsense isn't uncommon. My late sister-in-law, who lived in Viera, was terrified of the roundabout on Wickham Road near the Target because so many people just drove through it however they pleased paying no attention to yielding, using the correct lane, or using blinkers; she always went around via the far side of I-95 specifically to avoid that roundabout. Doesn't surprise me at all to see someone making a mess of it. At least in that video there were no crashes.
They restriped the roundabout at Main & Cemetery in Hilliard, Ohio as it had a history of being a high crash roundabout. I like the double hash lines and how they added an additional thru arrow at the exiting approach of the roundabout to highlight that the "thru" arrow means drivers need to exit the roundabout.
(https://i.imgur.com/OVtxUM3.png)
Drivers don't necessarily understand what a "thru" arrow is directing them to do at a roundabout. Does a "thru" arrow mean continue circulating around the roundabout? Here's an example where the "thru" arrow is directing drivers to continue around the circle. We just shouldn't assume drivers understand what a "thru" arrow means at a roundabout and confusion can lead to crashes.
(https://i.imgur.com/Nhqtqaw.png)
The second image doesn't look like a new roundabout – it looks like a traditional rotary that has been restriped.
Quote from: 1 on August 24, 2021, 08:34:35 AM
The second image doesn't look like a new roundabout – it looks like a traditional rotary that has been restriped.
That's really my point though. Do drivers make the distinction between whether they are driving through a modern roundabout vs driving through an old style rotary? To your average Joe they are driving through a circle. Yet in one circle the "thru" arrow means you must continue circulating where in another circle the "thru" arrow means you must exit. I'd be confused too.
What I wish FL had done there is putting mountable median curbs instead of those markings.
Quote from: tradephoric on August 24, 2021, 08:30:17 AM
Drivers don't necessarily understand what a "thru" arrow is directing them to do at a roundabout. Does a "thru" arrow mean continue circulating around the roundabout? Here's an example where the "thru" arrow is directing drivers to continue around the circle. We just shouldn't assume drivers understand what a "thru" arrow means at a roundabout and confusion can lead to crashes.
I think you do have a bit of a point here.
I think it would be a bit more helpful if agencies started using the fish hook arrows in advance of a roundabout (both on signs and pavement) to encourage proper lane alignment, but then use standard arrows within the roundabout itself to encourage the proper movements within the circulating roadway. Marking-wise, I'd treat the circulating roadway like a bunch of turn lanes with at least two sets of arrows between each leg–that along with the more distinctive lane division markings of the OP, might be a big help to getting people accustomed to navigating these things correctly.
Quote from: tradephoric on August 24, 2021, 08:43:18 AM
Do drivers make the distinction between whether they are driving through a modern roundabout vs driving through an old style rotary? To your average Joe they are driving through a circle.
Absolutely correct.
It does seem that some of the design characteristics of roundabouts, particularly the arrows, and signage diagrammatics, would make us think FHWA views roundabouts as a single intersection. But most drivers seem to see them as, as has been pointed out above, circulating roadway with several intersections. If that's truly case, then individual drivers are going to look at those arrows differently, with it helping as many drivers as it hurts.
I have to wonder whether we should just not have any arrows at all. Arrows leading up to the roundabout, and then nothing in the circle.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 24, 2021, 12:56:38 PM
It does seem that some of the design characteristics of roundabouts, particularly the arrows, and signage diagrammatics, would make us think FHWA views roundabouts as a single intersection. But most drivers seem to see them as, as has been pointed out above, circulating roadway with several intersections. If that's truly case, then individual drivers are going to look at those arrows differently, with it helping as many drivers as it hurts.
I have to wonder whether we should just not have any arrows at all. Arrows leading up to the roundabout, and then nothing in the circle.
I don't think most normal people think of a roundabout as numerous intersections - they're not going to say I'm on Road A, then at the intersection of Road A and B, turn left, then at Road A and Road C, turn left, then at Road A and Road D, turn right. They're going to say something to the effect of "in the roundabout, exit at the 3rd exit", or "exit onto Route 123 West".
That said, I don't know if most drivers are really going to have the time to look at lane markings, signage, painted arrows and other traffic, especially on smaller roundabouts. The better drivers will probably look at signage before they enter the roundabout to figure which lane to be in, but absent that, drivers will just continue around the circle until the need to exit, regardless of any paint in the roadway.
Quote from: jakeroot on August 24, 2021, 12:56:38 PM
I have to wonder whether we should just not have any arrows at all. Arrows leading up to the roundabout, and then nothing in the circle.
Heh. Welcome to MA in the 1980s.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 24, 2021, 01:04:35 PM
I don't know if most drivers are really going to have the time to look at lane markings, signage, painted arrows and other traffic ...
I agree with this. When approaching a roundabout, there's a lot of information to digest–what with all the arrows, signs, curvature of the roadway, pavement markings, yield signs, etc–and it's simply too much to expect most people to fully comprehend. So a lot of drivers are simply going to make their best educated guess at how to proceed. The solution isn't to make signage and pavement markings as clear as possible, but rather to make the whole operation as intuitive as possible.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2021, 08:15:32 AM
^^^
Unfortunately, that sort of nonsense isn't uncommon. My late sister-in-law, who lived in Viera, was terrified of the roundabout on Wickham Road near the Target because so many people just drove through it however they pleased paying no attention to yielding, using the correct lane, or using blinkers; she always went around via the far side of I-95 specifically to avoid that roundabout. Doesn't surprise me at all to see someone making a mess of it. At least in that video there were no crashes.
Rightfully so. I have a friend who lived near that one, and every time I go there, nobody uses the lanes correctly. Including my friend, and when there parents were visiting and driving us around, they insisted on directing them to make a left from the right lane, as they do every single day. I tried to explain it to them that they're doing it wrong, and they wouldn't have it, insisting they do it every day so they know better then me, and its how everyone around here drives... I mean, they were right on that last point, the car in front of and behind us both entered the roundabout on Lake Andrew Dr, and made a left onto Wickham Rd. Infact, I'd say when I was there, it seemed like 70% of the vehicles in the right lane used it to make a left at that point.
Quote from: UCFKnights on August 24, 2021, 01:27:33 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2021, 08:15:32 AM
^^^
Unfortunately, that sort of nonsense isn't uncommon. My late sister-in-law, who lived in Viera, was terrified of the roundabout on Wickham Road near the Target because so many people just drove through it however they pleased paying no attention to yielding, using the correct lane, or using blinkers; she always went around via the far side of I-95 specifically to avoid that roundabout. Doesn't surprise me at all to see someone making a mess of it. At least in that video there were no crashes.
Rightfully so. I have a friend who lived near that one, and every time I go there, nobody uses the lanes correctly. Including my friend, and when there parents were visiting and driving us around, they insisted on directing them to make a left from the right lane, as they do every single day. I tried to explain it to them that they're doing it wrong, and they wouldn't have it, insisting they do it every day so they know better then me, and its how everyone around here drives... I mean, they were right on that last point, the car in front of and behind us both entered the roundabout on Lake Andrew Dr, and made a left onto Wickham Rd. Infact, I'd say when I was there, it seemed like 70% of the vehicles in the right lane used it to make a left at that point.
Good grief, that's about the simplest and most un-noteworthy two-lane roundabout imaginable, too.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 24, 2021, 01:04:35 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 24, 2021, 12:56:38 PM
It does seem that some of the design characteristics of roundabouts, particularly the arrows, and signage diagrammatics, would make us think FHWA views roundabouts as a single intersection. But most drivers seem to see them as, as has been pointed out above, circulating roadway with several intersections. If that's truly case, then individual drivers are going to look at those arrows differently, with it helping as many drivers as it hurts.
I have to wonder whether we should just not have any arrows at all. Arrows leading up to the roundabout, and then nothing in the circle.
I don't think most normal people think of a roundabout as numerous intersections - they're not going to say I'm on Road A, then at the intersection of Road A and B, turn left, then at Road A and Road C, turn left, then at Road A and Road D, turn right. They're going to say something to the effect of "in the roundabout, exit at the 3rd exit", or "exit onto Route 123 West".
That's not what I was trying to imply. I think people view roundabouts as circles that you turn right onto, and then turn right off of. In this sense, there are never any straight movements
at entering a roundabout, but instead a series of intersections where you can either continue straight around the roundabout, or turn right off of it. This is complete nonsense, but how else do you explain drivers continuing around from the wrong lane?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 24, 2021, 01:04:35 PM
That said, I don't know if most drivers are really going to have the time to look at lane markings, signage, painted arrows and other traffic, especially on smaller roundabouts. The better drivers will probably look at signage before they enter the roundabout to figure which lane to be in, but absent that, drivers will just continue around the circle until the need to exit, regardless of any paint in the roadway.
I certainly wouldn't disagree with that. Information overload is a serious problem, and I'm sure some drivers just switch off when they get to a roundabout because there's just so much going on.
Quote from: Rothman on August 24, 2021, 01:08:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 24, 2021, 12:56:38 PM
I have to wonder whether we should just not have any arrows at all. Arrows leading up to the roundabout, and then nothing in the circle.
Heh. Welcome to MA in the 1980s.
Shit, we're already there. Have you seen the crash rates at some of these large roundabouts? They may be down slightly from the rotaries of the '80s, but not much. I think the only true success story is the single lane roundabout.
Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2021, 01:50:38 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on August 24, 2021, 01:27:33 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2021, 08:15:32 AM
^^^
Unfortunately, that sort of nonsense isn't uncommon. My late sister-in-law, who lived in Viera, was terrified of the roundabout on Wickham Road near the Target because so many people just drove through it however they pleased paying no attention to yielding, using the correct lane, or using blinkers; she always went around via the far side of I-95 specifically to avoid that roundabout. Doesn't surprise me at all to see someone making a mess of it. At least in that video there were no crashes.
Rightfully so. I have a friend who lived near that one, and every time I go there, nobody uses the lanes correctly. Including my friend, and when there parents were visiting and driving us around, they insisted on directing them to make a left from the right lane, as they do every single day. I tried to explain it to them that they're doing it wrong, and they wouldn't have it, insisting they do it every day so they know better then me, and its how everyone around here drives... I mean, they were right on that last point, the car in front of and behind us both entered the roundabout on Lake Andrew Dr, and made a left onto Wickham Rd. Infact, I'd say when I was there, it seemed like 70% of the vehicles in the right lane used it to make a left at that point.
Good grief, that's about the simplest and most un-noteworthy two-lane roundabout imaginable, too.
Here is a list of things me, my mom, or my dad have seen in a roundabout:
- stop in the circle to wait for a vehicle entering (this was my school bus driver, who should know better)
- stop and back up in the circle to take their correct exit (it's a CIRCLE, just go around!)
- go through the roundabout at high speed, taking a racing line, and cutting off at least one car who was already in the circle
- use the truck apron (IDK why, it isn't any faster, and just makes the ride unpleasant)
- at an "intersectionabout" (basically an intersection with splitter islands where the left turn lanes are, and a small circular island in the center of the intersection): cut to the left of the center island
- (pedestrian) cut across diagonally, onto the center island. No, this wasn't a rotary where that is permitted.
Quote from: MCRoads on August 24, 2021, 02:46:48 PM
- at an "intersectionabout" (basically an intersection with splitter islands where the left turn lanes are, and a small circular island in the center of the intersection): cut to the left of the center island
That's pretty common, at least in the absence of splitter islands. I'm not sure I've ever seen one
with splitter islands, though.
Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2021, 03:00:53 PM
Quote from: MCRoads on August 24, 2021, 02:46:48 PM
- at an "intersectionabout" (basically an intersection with splitter islands where the left turn lanes are, and a small circular island in the center of the intersection): cut to the left of the center island
That's pretty common, at least in the absence of splitter islands. I'm not sure I've ever seen one with splitter islands, though.
Well now you have! (https://goo.gl/maps/z6qJcMb6DSCEiw7XA)
Oh, I was thinking of one of those traffic-calming things with a little dinky center island.
Got you now.
Quote from: tradephoric on August 24, 2021, 07:39:43 AM
Watch the grey car navigate through the roundabout at 0:42. A lot of mistakes were made that day!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXst6sNUFDk
Good God! WTF?
When I posted this in the Traffic Signals and Highway Signs Facebook group, it got this reply:
QuoteIt's a frigging nightmare is what it is. Those of us who have to drive through it or work the crashes caused by our incompetent drivers will tell you! BTW, what's the point of putting a piece of artwork here when it will be obliterated by 16 cars within one hour of the time it's installed?
I thought he was exaggerating. Apparently not.
Anyway, here's my reply:
QuoteBe that as it may...
There's some evidence that multilane roundabouts are not nearly as safe as they're claimed to be, and that there's quite a bit of variation in accident rates between modern roundabouts that are similar in design. Some people deny and reject evidence that there's a problem, while others think that multilane roundabouts simply shouldn't be built. Myself, I think that we need to figure out how to make the most-unsafe multilane roundabouts a lot more like the safest ones. When I saw this paint scheme, specifically the four-stripe island-like markings between the lanes, it felt like an epiphany: it's much more obvious what each lane is supposed to do.
It may well be that drivers in Sarasota are so hopelessly stupid that trying to improve the situation there is a waste of effort. However, Sarasota isn't the only place in the nation with problematic multilane roundabouts. Perhaps this scheme would work in places with smarter drivers.
To be fair, why should we expect people to intuitively know what four solid white lines mean? If anything, the most obvious meaning might be "edge of roadway", not "lane separator".
Quote from: kphoger on August 25, 2021, 12:10:23 PM
To be fair, why should we expect people to intuitively know what four solid white lines mean? If anything, the most obvious meaning might be "edge of roadway", not "lane separator".
True.
The same effect could be achieved by removing the the inner lines and using white chevron markings inside the outer lines instead. That might actually be better, since it would already be MUTCD-compliant.