I was just thinking: where have you seen an ampersand (the "&" symbol) on a freeway exit sign? (I'm talking about the main sign at the exit, not supplementary signage.) However common it might be, it seems rare enough to me that whenever I do see it, it immediately stands out. The two signs that I can think of are both in Missouri: namely, the exit for "Hickman Mills Drive/Blue River Road/85th & 87th Street" on US 71 in my hometown of KC, and the exit for "Lucas & Hunt Road" on I-70 just outside St. Louis. In addition, cloverleaf interchanges in Minnesota use an ampersand to separate the letter suffixes instead of a hyphen; for example, the interchange with I-90 north of Albert Lea is "EXITS 13A&B" on I-35, which would appear as "EXITS 13A-B" in most other states.
Aside from what I mentioned, what other examples are there of ampersands on freeway exit signs throughout the country?
Exits 60&62, I-84, Connecticut
Exit 39&41/41&39, I-91, Connecticut
The reason why it's rare is because it's discouraged by the MUTCD:
Quote from: 2009 MUTCD, Chapter 2E
Periods, apostrophes, question marks, ampersands, or other punctuation or characters that are not letters, numerals, or hyphens should not be used in abbreviations, unless necessary to avoid confusion.
The solidus (slanted line or forward slash) is intended to be used for fractions only and should not be used to separate words on the same line of legend. Instead, a hyphen should be used for this purpose, such as "CARS — TRUCKS."
Amusingly, the example the MUTCD gives uses an en dash, not a hyphen, but whatever.
"Hickman Mills Drive/Blue River Road/85th & 87th Street" should be signed as "Hickman Mills Drive/Blue River Road/85th St — 87th St". The only bad thing is that since they're numeric streets, it resembles a range rather than a separations, kind of implying that there's an 86th Street that can be reached from that exit too. (Maybe MoDOT should stop trying to cram four roads on one sign panel...)
I'm sure that commuter parking lots would disqualify for this, e.g. "PARK & RIDE".
Quote from: Henry on August 27, 2021, 07:12:14 PM
I'm sure that commuter parking lots would disqualify for this, e.g. "PARK & RIDE".
Only if it's in Baltimore.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 27, 2021, 07:10:54 PM
(Maybe MoDOT should stop trying to cram four roads on one sign panel...)
Three's a stretch:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50403311307_0d19d72dd5_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jMY9qK)
^ That entire last line is bonkers. "Jct Routes" could be eliminated. Presumably US-50 (dash and all) could be as well, and then you could have a sign about half the width of that one.
Quote from: webny99 on August 27, 2021, 07:46:46 PM
^ That entire last line is bonkers. "Jct Routes" could be eliminated. Presumably US-50 (dash and all) could be as well, and then you could have a sign about half the width of that one.
Also, I think that 2 could be moved to the right a bit.
Inner Loop of the Capital Beltway approaching Exits 169 and 170, the exit tabs use ampersands "Exits 169 & 170B" ).
I think we had a thread about this before.
Exit tab for OH 126 "Exits 32B&C" (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2260862,-84.3725228,3a,46.4y,80.06h,92.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKzSF6p_OvJkUs_1SwBCufg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). This is the only example I can think of right now, as normally, the state uses dashes for suffixed exits.
Quote from: webny99 on August 27, 2021, 07:46:46 PM
^ That entire last line is bonkers. "Jct Routes" could be eliminated. Presumably US-50 (dash and all) could be as well, and then you could have a sign about half the width of that one.
Except the problem is that MoDOT specs say that "Route" must be prefixed on every route number, including Interstates, and that it must never be abbreviated, ever. So you get this funky "Route I-xx" construction that shows up whenever MoDOT has to refer to an interstate in text form.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Jct_Route_I-44.jpg)
Of course, KDOT (and most other states) would solve this problem by just signing it "(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/I-435.svg/25px-I-435.svg.png)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/I-470.svg/25px-I-470.svg.png)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/US_50.svg/20px-US_50.svg.png)".
I was thinking this new interchange on I-35E in Denton, Tx had an ampersand. Just looots of hyphens. And an apostrophe.
https://goo.gl/maps/6NeS7pZYCmdXhtVw5
iPhone
Quote from: plain on August 27, 2021, 08:11:39 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 27, 2021, 07:46:46 PM
^ That entire last line is bonkers. "Jct Routes" could be eliminated. Presumably US-50 (dash and all) could be as well, and then you could have a sign about half the width of that one.
Also, I think that 2 could be moved to the right a bit.
Actually, if anything, the 2 should be moved to the left to line up with the fractions above (whole numbers left of fractions).
Quote from: froggie on August 27, 2021, 09:00:42 PM
Quote from: plain on August 27, 2021, 08:11:39 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 27, 2021, 07:46:46 PM
^ That entire last line is bonkers. "Jct Routes" could be eliminated. Presumably US-50 (dash and all) could be as well, and then you could have a sign about half the width of that one.
Also, I think that 2 could be moved to the right a bit.
Actually, if anything, the 2 should be moved to the left to line up with the fractions above (whole numbers left of fractions).
That makes sense but I don't recall actually seeing signs like that.
____________________________________________
As for the ampersands, here's Exits 5 & 6 on I-264 EB in Portsmouth. This actually could also go in the thread about the ramps that split into different exit numbers or letters or something... I forgot what it was.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/kMCRPkfUM5BLwNWB8
The Clearview ampersand is terrible compared to the FHWA standard font ampersand.
As for the fractions being aligned on Interchange Sequence signs, that is the standard in some states, although the MUTCD example sign doesn't do that.
I-70 East & West (and also I-81 East & West) near Hagerstown MD:
https://goo.gl/maps/QpvZ8RCxTbE4mBDP6
For Clearview, we have exits 148A & 147 near Brighton MI:
https://goo.gl/maps/X1Eu257WjpWpsMfz6
This was on I-5 northbound in Santa Clarita (Los Angeles County) for about 10 years:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51407096636_3265b1c8e6_k.jpg)
(image from GSV)
It has since been replaced to accommodate the internal exit number tab. "Ventura &" was removed, so it now (erroneously) implies that CA-126 West is Newhall Ranch Road.
Quote from: KCRoadFan on August 27, 2021, 06:49:17 PMIn addition, cloverleaf interchanges in Minnesota use an ampersand to separate the letter suffixes instead of a hyphen; for example, the interchange with I-90 north of Albert Lea is "EXITS 13A&B" on I-35, which would appear as "EXITS 13A-B" in most other states.
This is no longer actively the case as hyphens have replaced ampersands in most of these instances, with the majority of the ampersands that still exist being old center-aligned signs that have yet to be replaced, though there are a couple exceptions.
There have been some US 1&9 shields in New Jersey, although US 1-9 is more common.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 28, 2021, 03:35:52 AM
Quote from: KCRoadFan on August 27, 2021, 06:49:17 PMIn addition, cloverleaf interchanges in Minnesota use an ampersand to separate the letter suffixes instead of a hyphen; for example, the interchange with I-90 north of Albert Lea is "EXITS 13A&B" on I-35, which would appear as "EXITS 13A-B" in most other states.
This is no longer actively the case as hyphens have replaced ampersands in most of these instances, with the majority of the ampersands that still exist being old center-aligned signs that have yet to be replaced, though there are a couple exceptions.
Noticed one such exception on I-35 in Owatonna today.
Then noticed another case where the advance guide signs for Exit 42 had been replaced with hyphens, but the gore sign still had an ampersand.
Quote from: froggie on August 28, 2021, 08:38:52 PM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on August 28, 2021, 03:35:52 AM
Quote from: KCRoadFan on August 27, 2021, 06:49:17 PMIn addition, cloverleaf interchanges in Minnesota use an ampersand to separate the letter suffixes instead of a hyphen; for example, the interchange with I-90 north of Albert Lea is "EXITS 13A&B" on I-35, which would appear as "EXITS 13A-B" in most other states.
This is no longer actively the case as hyphens have replaced ampersands in most of these instances, with the majority of the ampersands that still exist being old center-aligned signs that have yet to be replaced, though there are a couple exceptions.
Noticed one such exception on I-35 in Owatonna today.
The other two exceptions that I am aware of are on I-694 eastbound approaching I-35W in New Brighton (part of the sign replacement for when they changed the EB lane drop from the I-35W South exit to I-35W North around 2006-2007).
I noticed one example on I-35W at 494 where a new exit tab with an ampersand was quickly switched out, around 2011-2012 in GSV.
Couldn't get Google to let me copy the Street View link but here is one in Lexington, KY
https://goo.gl/maps/HZ1qYBnxTQuaeYyi8
You mean this one here?
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.0240727,-84.5563987,3a,15y,149.25h,92.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seZ-JqmEjQyJlr-UI2BBxMA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-US
Quote from: renegade on August 29, 2021, 02:10:21 PM
You mean this one here?
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.0240727,-84.5563987,3a,15y,149.25h,92.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seZ-JqmEjQyJlr-UI2BBxMA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-US
Yes, thanks! Google Maps on iPad wouldn't let me share the streetview link. Thanks for the assist
Quote from: CardInLex on August 29, 2021, 04:59:49 PM
Quote from: renegade on August 29, 2021, 02:10:21 PM
You mean this one here?
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.0240727,-84.5563987,3a,15y,149.25h,92.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seZ-JqmEjQyJlr-UI2BBxMA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-US
Yes, thanks! Google Maps on iPad wouldn't let me share the streetview link. Thanks for the assist
My pleasure! :cool:
Quote from: SkyPesos on August 27, 2021, 08:24:39 PM
Exit tab for OH 126 "Exits 32B&C" (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2260862,-84.3725228,3a,46.4y,80.06h,92.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKzSF6p_OvJkUs_1SwBCufg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192). This is the only example I can think of right now, as normally, the state uses dashes for suffixed exits.
Here is another one in the Cincinnati area on OH 129...
https://goo.gl/maps/YVZSNXgh5DorJZSx9
Because of the "potato" quality of early Google Street View images, the EXIT tab reads EXITS 25A&B.
The Google car hasn't been on that stretch of OH 129 since 2008?!? Incredibly, once you pan at the start of the bridge, the image is from 2 years ago. :confused:
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 27, 2021, 08:32:50 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 27, 2021, 07:46:46 PM
^ That entire last line is bonkers. "Jct Routes" could be eliminated. Presumably US-50 (dash and all) could be as well, and then you could have a sign about half the width of that one.
Except the problem is that MoDOT specs say that "Route" must be prefixed on every route number, including Interstates, and that it must never be abbreviated, ever. So you get this funky "Route I-xx" construction that shows up whenever MoDOT has to refer to an interstate in text form.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Jct_Route_I-44.jpg)
Of course, KDOT (and most other states) would solve this problem by just signing it "(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5d/I-435.svg/25px-I-435.svg.png)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/19/I-470.svg/25px-I-470.svg.png)(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/US_50.svg/20px-US_50.svg.png)".
Exactly what I was going to say. What an odd spec to have... Using the shields is so much clearer–even if it results in a slightly taller sign, there's less width so it likely balances out.
And to save some horizontal space in this instance, they could have at least used regular dashes instead of em dashes. I'm also not familiar enough to know whether for this example if the first three lines are all one exit or multiple exits very closely spaced. But if they were all one exit, they could have used the em dash to combine two road names to one line.
Quote from: plain on August 27, 2021, 09:19:28 PM
Quote from: froggie on August 27, 2021, 09:00:42 PM
Quote from: plain on August 27, 2021, 08:11:39 PM
Quote from: webny99 on August 27, 2021, 07:46:46 PM
^ That entire last line is bonkers. "Jct Routes" could be eliminated. Presumably US-50 (dash and all) could be as well, and then you could have a sign about half the width of that one.
Also, I think that 2 could be moved to the right a bit.
Actually, if anything, the 2 should be moved to the left to line up with the fractions above (whole numbers left of fractions).
That makes sense but I don't recall actually seeing signs like that.
That's concerning. It's a MUTCD convention for the whole numbers to be aligned left of fractions on these interchange sequence signs. It's actually one of my pet peeves when I see a sign that doesn't follow the convention.
https://goo.gl/maps/yKwK7RsPH9oNmPHd6 (https://goo.gl/maps/yKwK7RsPH9oNmPHd6)
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 27, 2021, 07:10:54 PM
The reason why it's rare is because it's discouraged by the MUTCD:
Quote from: 2009 MUTCD, Chapter 2E
Periods, apostrophes, question marks, ampersands, or other punctuation or characters that are not letters, numerals, or hyphens should not be used in abbreviations, unless necessary to avoid confusion.
The solidus (slanted line or forward slash) is intended to be used for fractions only and should not be used to separate words on the same line of legend. Instead, a hyphen should be used for this purpose, such as "CARS — TRUCKS."
Amusingly, the example the MUTCD gives uses an en dash, not a hyphen, but whatever.
I'm actually curious why this is no bueno, especially since many place names were originally spelled with apostrophes and in some cases, tildes. Let's face it,
Warriors Mark or Harpers Ferry is silly, especially since the latter's ferry was owned by a man named Harper...not Harpers.
Quote from: noelbotevera on August 31, 2021, 07:33:36 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 27, 2021, 07:10:54 PM
The reason why it's rare is because it's discouraged by the MUTCD:
Quote from: 2009 MUTCD, Chapter 2E
Periods, apostrophes, question marks, ampersands, or other punctuation or characters that are not letters, numerals, or hyphens should not be used in abbreviations, unless necessary to avoid confusion.
The solidus (slanted line or forward slash) is intended to be used for fractions only and should not be used to separate words on the same line of legend. Instead, a hyphen should be used for this purpose, such as "CARS — TRUCKS."
Amusingly, the example the MUTCD gives uses an en dash, not a hyphen, but whatever.
I'm actually curious why this is no bueno, especially since many place names were originally spelled with apostrophes and in some cases, tildes. Let's face it, Warriors Mark or Harpers Ferry is silly, especially since the latter's ferry was owned by a man named Harper...not Harpers.
Even worse: Fishs [various things].
Of course, the apostrophe was allowed to remain for a small number of place names. Granted, few of them have road signs.
See here (https://goo.gl/maps/EQYt9qZBXtnB3kyt6) but, then again, see here (https://goo.gl/maps/B6fneoag9fKcQTDHA).
Quote from: kphoger on September 01, 2021, 09:58:29 AM
Of course, the apostrophe was allowed to remain for a small number of place names. Granted, few of them have road signs.
See here (https://goo.gl/maps/EQYt9qZBXtnB3kyt6) but, then again, see here (https://goo.gl/maps/B6fneoag9fKcQTDHA).
Most signs in the Spokane area pointing towards Coeur d'Alene use the apostrophe for obvious reasons. "Coeur dAlene" just looks awful.
(https://i.imgur.com/kORNHJu.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/I3Mxuo1.jpeg)
Quote from: wanderer2575 on August 27, 2021, 11:50:29 PM
I-70 East & West (and also I-81 East & West) near Hagerstown MD:
https://goo.gl/maps/QpvZ8RCxTbE4mBDP6
I-70 is set up like that for it's I-81 (the same) exit..... but I swear I remember old signs, maybe back in the 80s / early 90's that had some sort of symbol instead of an ampersand (but designed to mean the same thing).
But my mind might just be playing tricks on me.
Quote from: formulanone on August 27, 2021, 07:18:48 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 27, 2021, 07:10:54 PM
(Maybe MoDOT should stop trying to cram four roads on one sign panel...)
Three's a stretch:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50403311307_0d19d72dd5_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jMY9qK)
At that point, just use shields.
Isn't the use of shields on mileage signs a relatively new thing? As in, only in the last couple of decades?
Quote from: kphoger on September 02, 2021, 12:23:33 PM
Isn't the use of shields on mileage signs a relatively new thing? As in, only in the last couple of decades?
I think it varies by state. Kansas has been using shields on mileage signs since at least the 1990s, if not earlier.
Missouri is just late on a lot of things–they were one of the last states to adopt rectangular shields for three-digit routes, for example.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 02, 2021, 04:35:40 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 02, 2021, 12:23:33 PM
Isn't the use of shields on mileage signs a relatively new thing? As in, only in the last couple of decades?
I think it varies by state. Kansas has been using shields on mileage signs since at least the 1990s, if not earlier.
Missouri is just late on a lot of things–they were one of the last states to adopt rectangular shields for three-digit routes, for example.
I remember seeing shields on mileage signs in the 1990s, and being surprised because it seemed like a new practice.
So I think it's funny that we've gone from "not really a thing" to "why would any agency not do that" during the span of my driving career.
Here's an example (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9525423,-77.4294141,3a,75y,358.89h,104.79t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sr0T08g_h3W-lpapKy52JgQ!2e0!5s20161001T000000!7i13312!8i6656) of a Clearview ampersand (which has since been greened out (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9525632,-77.4293524,3a,75y,358.89h,104.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sknZTAC0fnjJSrNB6M0sSkw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)).
Quote from: Bruce on September 01, 2021, 04:40:17 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 01, 2021, 09:58:29 AM
Of course, the apostrophe was allowed to remain for a small number of place names. Granted, few of them have road signs.
See here (https://goo.gl/maps/EQYt9qZBXtnB3kyt6) but, then again, see here (https://goo.gl/maps/B6fneoag9fKcQTDHA).
Most signs in the Spokane area pointing towards Coeur d'Alene use the apostrophe for obvious reasons. "Coeur dAlene" just looks awful.
(https://i.imgur.com/kORNHJu.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/I3Mxuo1.jpeg)
As for the second photo (the one with the Sandpoint sign) - what's up with that font?
Looks like a classic case of the 3/4 error (which happens based on a misinterpretation of the MUTCD where people don't realize that the font file already sizes the lower-case letters appropriately and scale them down even further).
Update: "Lucas & Hunt Road" is now "Lucas-Hunt Road" on the signs. When I drove through the area a couple weeks ago, I saw that MoDOT put small green squares with hyphens over the ampersands.
Quote from: KCRoadFan on September 07, 2022, 08:01:49 PM
Update: "Lucas & Hunt Road" is now "Lucas-Hunt Road" on the signs. When I drove through the area a couple weeks ago, I saw that MoDOT put small green squares with hyphens over the ampersands.
That's just stupid. Everybody in St Louis knows it as Lucas & Hunt, not Lucas-Hunt or even Lucas and Hunt.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/VbaeoTc6ohL1ZA8B7?g_st=ic
NB 805 in Chula Vista has this sign, because E Street and Bonita Road (the same continuous street) shares an off ramp with H Street