In case anyone needs a new transportation related book to read, I found this one on Amazon's new releases list coming out tomorrow by Strong Towns founder Charles Marohn called "Confessions of a Recovering Engineer: Transportation for a Strong Town" .
Description directly from Amazon:
QuoteDiscover insider secrets of how America's transportation system is designed, funded, and built — and how to make it work for your community
In Confessions of a Recovering Engineer: Transportation for a Strong Town, renowned speaker and author of Strong Towns Charles L. Marohn Jr. delivers an accessible and engaging exploration of America's transportation system, laying bare the reasons why it no longer works as it once did, and how to modernize transportation to better serve local communities.
You'll discover real-world examples of poor design choices and how those choices have dramatic and tragic effects on the lives of the people who use them. You'll also find case studies and examples of design improvements that have revitalized communities and improved safety.
This important book shows you:
The values of the transportation professions, how they are applied in the design process, and how those priorities differ from those of the public.
How the standard approach to transportation ensures the maximum amount of traffic congestion possible is created each day, and how to fight that congestion on a budget.
Bottom-up techniques for spending less and getting higher returns on transportation projects, all while improving quality of life for residents.
Perfect for anyone interested in why transportation systems work — and fail to work — the way they do, Confessions of a Recovering Engineer is a fascinating insider's peek behind the scenes of America's transportation systems.
I pre-ordered my copy yesterday. Can't wait to read it and see specifically what it's all about. Abd if anyone else is going to read it, could have a discussion here about it.
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 07, 2021, 01:52:40 PM
In case anyone needs a new transportation related book to read, I found this one on Amazon's new releases list coming out tomorrow by Strong Towns founder Charles Marohn called "Confessions of a Recovering Engineer: Transportation for a Strong Town" .
Description directly from Amazon:
QuoteDiscover insider secrets of how America's transportation system is designed, funded, and built — and how to make it work for your community
In Confessions of a Recovering Engineer: Transportation for a Strong Town, renowned speaker and author of Strong Towns Charles L. Marohn Jr. delivers an accessible and engaging exploration of America's transportation system, laying bare the reasons why it no longer works as it once did, and how to modernize transportation to better serve local communities.
You'll discover real-world examples of poor design choices and how those choices have dramatic and tragic effects on the lives of the people who use them. You'll also find case studies and examples of design improvements that have revitalized communities and improved safety.
This important book shows you:
The values of the transportation professions, how they are applied in the design process, and how those priorities differ from those of the public.
How the standard approach to transportation ensures the maximum amount of traffic congestion possible is created each day, and how to fight that congestion on a budget.
Bottom-up techniques for spending less and getting higher returns on transportation projects, all while improving quality of life for residents.
Perfect for anyone interested in why transportation systems work — and fail to work — the way they do, Confessions of a Recovering Engineer is a fascinating insider's peek behind the scenes of America's transportation systems.
I pre-ordered my copy yesterday. Can't wait to read it and see specifically what it's all about. Abd if anyone else is going to read it, could have a discussion here about it.
will it talk about the i238 and the i99? :biggrin: :hmmm:
Quote from: snowc on September 07, 2021, 01:55:04 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 07, 2021, 01:52:40 PM
In case anyone needs a new transportation related book to read, I found this one on Amazon's new releases list coming out tomorrow by Strong Towns founder Charles Marohn called "Confessions of a Recovering Engineer: Transportation for a Strong Town" .
Description directly from Amazon:
QuoteDiscover insider secrets of how America's transportation system is designed, funded, and built — and how to make it work for your community
In Confessions of a Recovering Engineer: Transportation for a Strong Town, renowned speaker and author of Strong Towns Charles L. Marohn Jr. delivers an accessible and engaging exploration of America's transportation system, laying bare the reasons why it no longer works as it once did, and how to modernize transportation to better serve local communities.
You'll discover real-world examples of poor design choices and how those choices have dramatic and tragic effects on the lives of the people who use them. You'll also find case studies and examples of design improvements that have revitalized communities and improved safety.
This important book shows you:
The values of the transportation professions, how they are applied in the design process, and how those priorities differ from those of the public.
How the standard approach to transportation ensures the maximum amount of traffic congestion possible is created each day, and how to fight that congestion on a budget.
Bottom-up techniques for spending less and getting higher returns on transportation projects, all while improving quality of life for residents.
Perfect for anyone interested in why transportation systems work — and fail to work — the way they do, Confessions of a Recovering Engineer is a fascinating insider's peek behind the scenes of America's transportation systems.
I pre-ordered my copy yesterday. Can't wait to read it and see specifically what it's all about. Abd if anyone else is going to read it, could have a discussion here about it.
will it talk about the i238 and the i99? [emoji3] :hmmm:
No.
Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2021, 01:56:05 PM
Quote from: snowc on September 07, 2021, 01:55:04 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 07, 2021, 01:52:40 PM
In case anyone needs a new transportation related book to read, I found this one on Amazon's new releases list coming out tomorrow by Strong Towns founder Charles Marohn called "Confessions of a Recovering Engineer: Transportation for a Strong Town" .
Description directly from Amazon:
QuoteDiscover insider secrets of how America's transportation system is designed, funded, and built — and how to make it work for your community
In Confessions of a Recovering Engineer: Transportation for a Strong Town, renowned speaker and author of Strong Towns Charles L. Marohn Jr. delivers an accessible and engaging exploration of America's transportation system, laying bare the reasons why it no longer works as it once did, and how to modernize transportation to better serve local communities.
You'll discover real-world examples of poor design choices and how those choices have dramatic and tragic effects on the lives of the people who use them. You'll also find case studies and examples of design improvements that have revitalized communities and improved safety.
This important book shows you:
The values of the transportation professions, how they are applied in the design process, and how those priorities differ from those of the public.
How the standard approach to transportation ensures the maximum amount of traffic congestion possible is created each day, and how to fight that congestion on a budget.
Bottom-up techniques for spending less and getting higher returns on transportation projects, all while improving quality of life for residents.
Perfect for anyone interested in why transportation systems work — and fail to work — the way they do, Confessions of a Recovering Engineer is a fascinating insider's peek behind the scenes of America's transportation systems.
I pre-ordered my copy yesterday. Can't wait to read it and see specifically what it's all about. Abd if anyone else is going to read it, could have a discussion here about it.
will it talk about the i238 and the i99? [emoji3] :hmmm:
No.
aw man! guess that's not going to be the book for me. :rolleyes:
Quote from: snowc on September 07, 2021, 01:57:15 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2021, 01:56:05 PM
Quote from: snowc on September 07, 2021, 01:55:04 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 07, 2021, 01:52:40 PM
In case anyone needs a new transportation related book to read, I found this one on Amazon's new releases list coming out tomorrow by Strong Towns founder Charles Marohn called "Confessions of a Recovering Engineer: Transportation for a Strong Town" .
Description directly from Amazon:
QuoteDiscover insider secrets of how America's transportation system is designed, funded, and built — and how to make it work for your community
In Confessions of a Recovering Engineer: Transportation for a Strong Town, renowned speaker and author of Strong Towns Charles L. Marohn Jr. delivers an accessible and engaging exploration of America's transportation system, laying bare the reasons why it no longer works as it once did, and how to modernize transportation to better serve local communities.
You'll discover real-world examples of poor design choices and how those choices have dramatic and tragic effects on the lives of the people who use them. You'll also find case studies and examples of design improvements that have revitalized communities and improved safety.
This important book shows you:
The values of the transportation professions, how they are applied in the design process, and how those priorities differ from those of the public.
How the standard approach to transportation ensures the maximum amount of traffic congestion possible is created each day, and how to fight that congestion on a budget.
Bottom-up techniques for spending less and getting higher returns on transportation projects, all while improving quality of life for residents.
Perfect for anyone interested in why transportation systems work — and fail to work — the way they do, Confessions of a Recovering Engineer is a fascinating insider's peek behind the scenes of America's transportation systems.
I pre-ordered my copy yesterday. Can't wait to read it and see specifically what it's all about. Abd if anyone else is going to read it, could have a discussion here about it.
will it talk about the i238 and the i99? [emoji3] :hmmm:
No.
aw man! guess that's not going to be the book for me. :rolleyes:
It actually sounds like a book written by an engineer that knows sound design principles, but exaggerates his knowledge about funding, which would be par for the course.
Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2021, 01:59:10 PM
Quote from: snowc on September 07, 2021, 01:57:15 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2021, 01:56:05 PM
Quote from: snowc on September 07, 2021, 01:55:04 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 07, 2021, 01:52:40 PM
In case anyone needs a new transportation related book to read, I found this one on Amazon's new releases list coming out tomorrow by Strong Towns founder Charles Marohn called "Confessions of a Recovering Engineer: Transportation for a Strong Town" .
Description directly from Amazon:
QuoteDiscover insider secrets of how America's transportation system is designed, funded, and built — and how to make it work for your community
In Confessions of a Recovering Engineer: Transportation for a Strong Town, renowned speaker and author of Strong Towns Charles L. Marohn Jr. delivers an accessible and engaging exploration of America's transportation system, laying bare the reasons why it no longer works as it once did, and how to modernize transportation to better serve local communities.
You'll discover real-world examples of poor design choices and how those choices have dramatic and tragic effects on the lives of the people who use them. You'll also find case studies and examples of design improvements that have revitalized communities and improved safety.
This important book shows you:
The values of the transportation professions, how they are applied in the design process, and how those priorities differ from those of the public.
How the standard approach to transportation ensures the maximum amount of traffic congestion possible is created each day, and how to fight that congestion on a budget.
Bottom-up techniques for spending less and getting higher returns on transportation projects, all while improving quality of life for residents.
Perfect for anyone interested in why transportation systems work — and fail to work — the way they do, Confessions of a Recovering Engineer is a fascinating insider's peek behind the scenes of America's transportation systems.
I pre-ordered my copy yesterday. Can't wait to read it and see specifically what it's all about. Abd if anyone else is going to read it, could have a discussion here about it.
will it talk about the i238 and the i99? [emoji3] :hmmm:
No.
aw man! guess that's not going to be the book for me. :rolleyes:
It actually sounds like a book written by an engineer that knows sound design principles, but exaggerates his knowledge about funding, which would be par for the course.
oh ok. thanks for the clearup.
"...laying bare the reasons why it no longer works as it once did"
It doesn't work like it used to?
How do 350 million people get around every day?
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 07, 2021, 02:01:47 PM
"...laying bare the reasons why it no longer works as it once did"
It doesn't work like it used to?
How do 350 million people get around every day?
I have a feeling this is the part where he's going to get super technical from this vague statement.
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 07, 2021, 02:06:06 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 07, 2021, 02:01:47 PM
"...laying bare the reasons why it no longer works as it once did"
It doesn't work like it used to?
How do 350 million people get around every day?
I have a feeling this is the part where he's going to get super technical from this vague statement.
No. No, he won't. When talking about the system failing, getting "super technical" into design details of a specific structure or facility will not help.
Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2021, 02:19:15 PM
No. No, he won't. When talking about the system failing, getting "super technical" into design details of a specific structure or facility will not help.
You can't really illustrate a point without showing examples, and you can't do justice to examples without going into technical details.
Quote from: Ned Weasel on September 07, 2021, 08:20:14 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 07, 2021, 02:19:15 PM
No. No, he won't. When talking about the system failing, getting "super technical" into design details of a specific structure or facility will not help.
You can't really illustrate a point without showing examples, and you can't do justice to examples without going into technical details.
We shall see. :D
Btw, this is the same person that went on a crusade against "stroads" a few years ago. Wouldn't be surprised if they are mentioned in the book too.
https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/10/30/the-stroad
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 07, 2021, 08:23:59 PM
Btw, this is the same person that went on a crusade against "stroads" a few years ago. Wouldn't be surprised if they are mentioned in the book too.
https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/10/30/the-stroad
In the interest of objectivity, one should mention that this guy is founder of Strong Towns, one of extreme urbanist sites.
Maybe change title to "strong towns founder publishes a book"?
Quote from: kalvado on September 07, 2021, 08:39:51 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 07, 2021, 08:23:59 PM
Btw, this is the same person that went on a crusade against "stroads" a few years ago. Wouldn't be surprised if they are mentioned in the book too.
https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/10/30/the-stroad
In the interest of objectivity, one should mention that this guy is founder of Strong Towns, one of extreme urbanist sites.
Maybe change title to "strong towns founder publishes a book"?
You can change the title of your reply by using the full reply feature instead of Quick Reply.
Quote from: kalvado on September 07, 2021, 08:39:51 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on September 07, 2021, 08:23:59 PM
Btw, this is the same person that went on a crusade against "stroads" a few years ago. Wouldn't be surprised if they are mentioned in the book too.
https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2017/10/30/the-stroad
In the interest of objectivity, one should mention that this guy is founder of Strong Towns, one of extreme urbanist sites.
Maybe change title to "strong towns founder publishes a book"?
I'll change the title then, to somewhat mention the author.
Looking through the forum, specifically the threads discussing his Growth Ponzi and Stroads concepts, yea, I can see that Strong Towns is pretty controversial here.
Yeah, it's pretty obvious from the "how our roads are built to maximize congestion" part that this book is all about things like "induced demand".
I got to chapter 2 in the book so far, some interesting points, This is where he starts talking about stroads.
- So far, he used State Street in Springfield, MA (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1032447,-72.5844876,128m/data=!3m1!1e3), in front of the library as an example of poor design for pedestrians trying to get from the library to the parking lot across from the road.
- Here's a graph he has in the book differentiating the speed between "streets" and "roads". This one sort of confused me, as he placed 25 mph (a common speed for residential roads in the US) in the stroads category, and said that anything above 15 or 20 mph are no longer considered as streets.
(https://i.imgur.com/xKMDopb.png?1)
- He mentioned the Esplanade (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7451347,-121.8511156,265m/data=!3m1!1e3) in Chico, CA as an example of a "productive stroad", with a frontage lane serving the purposes of a street, and the center lanes serving the purpose of a road, and those two lanes separated by a tree lined median. The only downside to this is the longer crossing time for pedestrians. Not sure what the general opinion on this type of road here, as I don't see this design talked about much.
- In chapter 1, he havethis table on the design process of roads, it's pretty self explanatory.
(https://i.imgur.com/X8XKxJt.png?1)
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 16, 2021, 12:08:27 PM
[...]he placed 25 mph (a common speed for residential roads in the US) in the stroads category, and said that anything above 15 or 20 mph are no longer considered as streets.
Ah, so he's an idiot.
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 16, 2021, 12:08:27 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/xKMDopb.png?1)
Note that the Y-axis here has absolutely zero numerical units associated with it. Meaning this graph is based on nothing but this dude's opinion. And given that he's an idiot, his opinion would end up at the bottom of that Y-axis...
So he's just a basic keyboard raging urbanist who doesn't understand that different people have different preferences and priorities for how they want to live.
If I, someone living in a fairly stereotypical suburban America community, wanted to scream at people living in high density urban neighborhoods, I could, and I would be able to back up my ranting with facts that are no less valid than what they use to hate suburbs. But I actually understand that their preferences are probably different from mine.
Ok, I'm going to play devils advocate here: he isn't totally wrong. While I do NOT agree with everything he says, he brings up some good points (at least from the excepts of the book I have seen. Public transportation SUCKS here. As a visually impaired person who will never be able to operate a vehicle safely (aside from "why don't you drive the car in the parking lot/dirt field" thing most parents do before you get a license) (also, yes, I see the irony), I hate having to use the city bud. It never comes in time, the fare is $63 for a 1 month bus pass (thankfully I get free rides from my school), and the bus doesn't even come that close to where I live. Also, the pedestrian and bike infrastructure is atrocious outside of downtown, and some select other areas. Good thing I'm going into civil engineering, because I am going to need the money just to pay living costs and get to work!
The biggest fallacy in transportation planning is when someone assumes we must have either 100% transit-centered or 100% car-centered. They can and should coexist, and the ideal city design accommodates people that want to live both lifestyles.
It's worth noting that there's some definitional incongruence here. A "street" in the view of Strong Towns is a busy, dense area where it's practically impossible to go even remotely fast. Something like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8495825,4.5547065,3a,82.7y,62.09h,65.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCHgQqsF4nMPq32Ob5fKylA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) (at the most suburban). A road, by contrast, is focused on moving traffic, with little/no local access. A "stroad" is a hybrid of the two that's considered highly offensive to modern Urbanism. We don't have very many streets in the US or Canada by that definition; we do have roads, though not as many as one would think (especially in urban/suburban areas), and almost everything is a stroad.
This video from Not Just Bikes talks about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bglWCuCMSWc
Quote from: vdeane on October 19, 2021, 10:26:25 PM
It's worth noting that there's some definitional incongruence here. A "street" in the view of Strong Towns is a busy, dense area where it's practically impossible to go even remotely fast. Something like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@51.8495825,4.5547065,3a,82.7y,62.09h,65.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCHgQqsF4nMPq32Ob5fKylA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) (at the most suburban). A road, by contrast, is focused on moving traffic, with little/no local access. A "stroad" is a hybrid of the two that's considered highly offensive to modern Urbanism. We don't have very many streets in the US or Canada by that definition; we do have roads, though not as many as one would think (especially in urban/suburban areas), and almost everything is a stroad.
This video from Not Just Bikes talks about it:
[video clipped]
Sometimes, I wonder how much local access a road can have before turning into the stroads category. There's a portion of US 22 (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/39.2728752,-84.3271557/39.285639,-84.3101452/@39.2790518,-84.3248363,1765m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e0) (Montgomery Rd) in my area with a fixed median (which is a good sign vs the more common dual left turn lane that are generally associated with stroads). Speed limit is 40 (as most of the rest of US 22 is definitely a stroad), but I see a lot of drivers go up to 50 or 55 for the less than usual unprotected access. Though there's some unsignalized access to two neighborhood roads in this stretch, which is a quality of a stroad.
He pointed out in the book an example of a "good stroad": Esplanade (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7452927,-121.8514433,220m/data=!3m1!1e3) in Chico, CA. The side "frontage lanes" act as a street for local access, while the center lanes are a road, only intersect with major cross-streets. Not sure what the general opinion on these type of roads are on the forum, as examples are rare in the US.
Btw, you probably posted the wrong NJB video link above, as you posted the one about speed limits, not the one about stroads.
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 20, 2021, 12:16:12 AM
He pointed out in the book an example of a "good stroad": Esplanade (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7452927,-121.8514433,220m/data=!3m1!1e3) in Chico, CA. The side "frontage lanes" act as a street for local access, while the center lanes are a road, only intersect with major cross-streets. Not sure what the general opinion on these type of roads are on the forum, as examples are rare in the US.
There are a few around NYC (like Queens Boulevard and Ocean Parkway).
Quote
Btw, you probably posted the wrong NJB video link above, as you posted the one about speed limits, not the one about stroads.
Nope, it's intentional. Note that the complaints about the speed limit graph are about him defining our residential roads with 25-30 mph speed limits as "stroads". The video also includes a brief overview of the definitions.
Note that I went from re-watching the video to deciding to post in this thread rather than the other way around. I didn't even think about the video specifically about stroads.
Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2021, 12:53:21 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 20, 2021, 12:16:12 AM
He pointed out in the book an example of a "good stroad": Esplanade (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7452927,-121.8514433,220m/data=!3m1!1e3) in Chico, CA. The side "frontage lanes" act as a street for local access, while the center lanes are a road, only intersect with major cross-streets. Not sure what the general opinion on these type of roads are on the forum, as examples are rare in the US.
There are a few around NYC (like Queens Boulevard and Ocean Parkway).
There's a whole book about multi-way boulevards, and it's been out for kind of a long time: https://www.amazon.com/Boulevard-Book-Evolution-Multiway-Boulevards/dp/0262100908/ . I'm surprised it hasn't gotten more attention. Maybe it's because the cover makes it look a lot less interesting than the subject matter actually is.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2021, 07:02:12 PM
The biggest fallacy in transportation planning is when someone assumes we must have either 100% transit-centered or 100% car-centered. They can and should coexist, and the ideal city design accommodates people that want to live both lifestyles.
Definitely agree on this. Wish more people recognized that.
Not entirely related to the book, but found it interesting that the world "stroad" (which came from Strong Towns) is used in a FHWA report recently (https://international.fhwa.dot.gov/programs/mrp/docs/FHWA-PL-23-006.pdf) (Page 20).
(https://i.imgur.com/ez8YFMi.png)
So using the definitions there, a "stroad" is just a road that someone is really butthurt about because they want it to be a street.
A shame that possibly good points are diluted by making up a new unnecessary word.
Quote from: kkt on September 03, 2023, 01:25:03 PM
A shame that possibly good points are diluted by making up a new unnecessary word.
Actually highlights the problem pretty well, although new word doesn't offer any solution...
Quote from: kalvado on September 03, 2023, 01:45:22 PM
Quote from: kkt on September 03, 2023, 01:25:03 PM
A shame that possibly good points are diluted by making up a new unnecessary word.
Actually highlights the problem pretty well, although new word doesn't offer any solution...
What kind of solution could there be:
1. "No one can develop anything here because this is a road."
2. "Because of all the development here, this is now a street, and no one can use it for longer-distance driving." (Yeah, right)
I imagine that most places that are called "stroads" are roads where rule 1 was ignored. Unless you are going to artificially reduce/restrict the amount of people, businesses, etc. that can be in an area, some roads inevitably will evolve into stroads.
Quote from: GaryV on September 03, 2023, 03:02:29 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 03, 2023, 01:45:22 PM
Quote from: kkt on September 03, 2023, 01:25:03 PM
A shame that possibly good points are diluted by making up a new unnecessary word.
Actually highlights the problem pretty well, although new word doesn't offer any solution...
What kind of solution could there be:
1. "No one can develop anything here because this is a road."
2. "Because of all the development here, this is now a street, and no one can use it for longer-distance driving." (Yeah, right)
I imagine that most places that are called "stroads" are roads where rule 1 was ignored. Unless you are going to artificially reduce/restrict the amount of people, businesses, etc. that can be in an area, some roads inevitably will evolve into stroads.
Solution would be, for example, could be like developing a grid with primary road and parallel streets for more local movements. Of course, next thing would be the complaint that road is dividing blah blah.
Reality is that growth of area means, amoung other thing, more movements to be accommodated. That should include new movement paths.
It is entirely possible to accommodate new growth on an existing road without making it very dangerous to cross for pedestrians and cyclists. Just slow down traffic, add barriers, and don't widen it to the size of Rhode Island. It may take an extra minute for thru traffic, but the benefits far outweigh that con.
Quote from: GaryV on September 03, 2023, 03:02:29 PM
I imagine that most places that are called "stroads" are roads where rule 1 was ignored. Unless you are going to artificially reduce/restrict the amount of people, businesses, etc. that can be in an area, some roads inevitably will evolve into stroads.
From what I can get from their definitions, limiting driveway access to from a "stroad" is a way to turn it into a "road" . Access can be provided by intersecting roads, or frontage lanes for a road.
I had US 23 north of Columbus in mind when writing this. Would love for it to become more like a "road" than a "stroad"
Quote from: Bruce on September 03, 2023, 05:13:26 PM
It is entirely possible to accommodate new growth on an existing road without making it very dangerous to cross for pedestrians and cyclists. Just slow down traffic, add barriers, and don't widen it to the size of Rhode Island. It may take an extra minute for thru traffic, but the benefits far outweigh that con.
That's exactly my problem with many of those willing to change the world - lack of basic arithmetic skills.
One lane of highway has throughput of about 1600-1800 vph. Reduce seed limit? 1200. Add traffic control? 1000. Traffic calming and barriers? 750. School buses? 650. City buses? 500.
Assuming 2 hours worth of commute traffic, you basically limit the number of people that street serves to about 2000-3000, depending on demographics... Oh, and the supermarket capture area is about 10000 people.
Quote from: Bruce on September 03, 2023, 05:13:26 PM
It is entirely possible to accommodate new growth on an existing road without making it very dangerous to cross for pedestrians and cyclists. Just slow down traffic, add barriers, and don't widen it to the size of Rhode Island. It may take an extra minute for thru traffic, but the benefits far outweigh that con.
It's not too hard to imagine a scenario where the economic benefit of getting traffic
through a town far exceeds the GDP of the entire town and all the assets in it put together.
Sure, that doesn't take into account "quality of life", but then you start getting into mushy, incalculable stuff like "which is greater, the quality of life benefit to having a slow street to the few dozen people that live nearby or the quality of life benefit of getting an Amazon truck through town to the city up the road and benefiting a large number of people a small amount".
Quote from: kalvado on September 03, 2023, 07:00:06 PM
Reduce seed limit? 1200.
More vegetation = faster traffic? :bigass:
Quote from: MCRoads on October 20, 2021, 11:49:13 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 19, 2021, 07:02:12 PM
The biggest fallacy in transportation planning is when someone assumes we must have either 100% transit-centered or 100% car-centered. They can and should coexist, and the ideal city design accommodates people that want to live both lifestyles.
Definitely agree on this. Wish more people recognized that.
The problem is that in most of the United States, if you suggest anything that is less than 150% car-centered, you get drowned out by a bunch of screeching noises about "urbanists."
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 03, 2023, 07:36:06 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 03, 2023, 05:13:26 PM
It is entirely possible to accommodate new growth on an existing road without making it very dangerous to cross for pedestrians and cyclists. Just slow down traffic, add barriers, and don't widen it to the size of Rhode Island. It may take an extra minute for thru traffic, but the benefits far outweigh that con.
It's not too hard to imagine a scenario where the economic benefit of getting traffic through a town far exceeds the GDP of the entire town and all the assets in it put together.
Sure, that doesn't take into account "quality of life", but then you start getting into mushy, incalculable stuff like "which is greater, the quality of life benefit to having a slow street to the few dozen people that live nearby or the quality of life benefit of getting an Amazon truck through town to the city up the road and benefiting a large number of people a small amount".
If the economic value of the traffic passing through the town is so much more than the value of the town itself, then it seems like both would be better served by the highway going around the town rather than straight through it.
Part of the problem is that a lot urbanists have gotten into positions they ought to not be filling. Being openly hostile to anything to do with cars isn't an effective planning strategy (an example being the YouTuber CityNerd). There is a reason a lot of us recoil suddenly when we see a suggestion brought up by an urbanist or urbanist group. For every good idea an urbanist may have it tends to get buried under the ideology of "fuck cars."
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2023, 11:28:46 PM
Part of the problem is that a lot urbanists have gotten into positions they ought to not be filling. Being openly hostile to anything to do with cars isn't much help either. There is a reason a lot of us recoil suddenly when we see a suggestion brought up by an urbanist or urbanist group. For every good idea an urbanist may have it tends to get buried under the ideology of "fuck cars."
More screeching.
Quote from: algorerhythms on September 03, 2023, 11:29:46 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2023, 11:28:46 PM
Part of the problem is that a lot urbanists have gotten into positions they ought to not be filling. Being openly hostile to anything to do with cars isn't much help either. There is a reason a lot of us recoil suddenly when we see a suggestion brought up by an urbanist or urbanist group. For every good idea an urbanist may have it tends to get buried under the ideology of "fuck cars."
More screeching.
Why? Because I called urbanism the ideology that it is? Give me balanced planning any day of the week. Going from one extreme or another (this goes for fully car centric planning also) is not a viable strategy. The trouble the urbanism crowd will deny this and claim anyone disagreeing is wrong.
Balanced planning is one thing, but that is very rarely what we get in the U.S. Personally, I'm not "anti-car". Cars are like any other technology, they can be used well and they can be used poorly. By building infrastructure that makes driving a basic requirement of life (to the point where we let 90+-year-old people who are incapable of driving safely to continue driving because taking away their license would be cruel), we are not using this technology well. There need to be alternatives available for people who either are not capable of driving, or don't want to drive. In most of the U.S. those alternatives don't exist, and if you suggest them you get shouted down as being "anti-car".
Quote from: algorerhythms on September 04, 2023, 10:52:01 AM
Balanced planning is one thing, but that is very rarely what we get in the U.S. Personally, I'm not "anti-car". Cars are like any other technology, they can be used well and they can be used poorly. By building infrastructure that makes driving a basic requirement of life (to the point where we let 90+-year-old people who are incapable of driving safely to continue driving because taking away their license would be cruel), we are not using this technology well. There need to be alternatives available for people who either are not capable of driving, or don't want to drive. In most of the U.S. those alternatives don't exist, and if you suggest them you get shouted down as being "anti-car".
This significantly depends on population density. Single family homes on even a small lot are not well suited for anything other than personal transportation. Walking a few miles a day in any weather isn't really an option for most people. Biking is also weather dependent.
Density is the bigger issue in general; city centers with lots of business requiring commute from those sparse outer areas do have problems with accomodations to both concepts.
Walking and biking are even less suitable for 90 year olds, honestly speaking, regardless of weather. The only option is minimized travel distance - high density or delivery. I wonder if increased reliance on delivery has anything to do with population aging?
That is to say, getting urbanist's society would require bulldozing most existing residential housing to build higher density city centers and clearing up suburbs. At the time when construction is becoming too expensive for most.
Quote from: algorerhythms on September 03, 2023, 11:29:46 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 03, 2023, 11:28:46 PM
Part of the problem is that a lot urbanists have gotten into positions they ought to not be filling. Being openly hostile to anything to do with cars isn't much help either. There is a reason a lot of us recoil suddenly when we see a suggestion brought up by an urbanist or urbanist group. For every good idea an urbanist may have it tends to get buried under the ideology of "fuck cars."
More screeching.
Might want to get your brakes checked then.
The problem at the root of this is that like or not the modern world does revolve around having an automobile. That root cause really goes back the early automobile era when they began to become affordable for the general populace. The most affordable and practical option coming to prominence as the dominant transportation form should be no surprise. The urbanism crowd attempts to deny that this reality for the majority of commuters.
While there should be alternatives available the problem is the urbanism advocacy has done a poor job advocating for them. Demanding things like the removal of freeways like I-275 in Tampa or going on Reddit to create "fuck cars" threads doesn't endear to the masses. Stuff like CityNerd equating the entire road community as akin to Kernals12 is an example of the low brow behavior typical in the urbanism crowd.
As someone who does distance running and cycling I have every incentive to support multimodal transportation corridors. I would just prefer a less insane crowd to be pushing for and creating the best models for everything.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 04, 2023, 11:26:51 AM
The problem at the root of this is that like or not the modern world does revolve around having an automobile. That root cause really goes back the early automobile era when they began to become affordable for the general populace. The most affordable and practical option coming to prominence as the dominant transportation form should be no surprise. The urbanism crowd attempts to deny that this reality for the majority of commuters.
While there should be alternatives available the problem is the urbanism advocacy has done a poor job advocating for them. Demanding things like the removal of freeways like I-275 in Tampa or going on Reddit to create "fuck cars" threads doesn't endear to the masses. Stuff like CityNerd equating the entire road community as akin to Kernals12 is an example of the low brow behavior typical in the urbanism crowd.
How is claiming that "fuck cars" represents people who want alternatives to car transport any different than claiming that Kernals12 represents the road community?
Quote from: kalvado on September 04, 2023, 11:16:10 AM
Quote from: algorerhythms on September 04, 2023, 10:52:01 AM
Balanced planning is one thing, but that is very rarely what we get in the U.S. Personally, I'm not "anti-car". Cars are like any other technology, they can be used well and they can be used poorly. By building infrastructure that makes driving a basic requirement of life (to the point where we let 90+-year-old people who are incapable of driving safely to continue driving because taking away their license would be cruel), we are not using this technology well. There need to be alternatives available for people who either are not capable of driving, or don't want to drive. In most of the U.S. those alternatives don't exist, and if you suggest them you get shouted down as being "anti-car".
This significantly depends on population density. Single family homes on even a small lot are not well suited for anything other than personal transportation. Walking a few miles a day in any weather isn't really an option for most people. Biking is also weather dependent.
Density is the bigger issue in general; city centers with lots of business requiring commute from those sparse outer areas do have problems with accomodations to both concepts.
Walking and biking are even less suitable for 90 year olds, honestly speaking, regardless of weather. The only option is minimized travel distance - high density or delivery. I wonder if increased reliance on delivery has anything to do with population aging?
Walking and biking aren't the only alternatives that can exist. If there was a decent public transit system, then our theoretical 90-year-old could use that. But basic public transit generally isn't invested in in North America because it's assumed it's only for the poor; I've heard people casually refer to buses as "loser cruisers" -- and the bus service around where I live is so bad that it is literally faster to walk than to take the bus. And that's not even to get into the fact that in much of North America it's illegal to build anything other than those low-density developments -- so despite a housing shortage in many areas, particularly in high-demand places like California, it's illegal to build higher density housing that could help meet that demand (though IIRC that has changed recently in California, it's still true in many areas).
I mean hey, you're the one who opened the door for this when you generalized the populace as being largely 150% car-centric. The replies prior to you seem sensible enough to build some constructive dialog off of. Why not try some arguments for how a balanced model of automotive and transit infrastructure might be the most overall beneficial approach? Stereotyping the general car utilizing populace as something disagreeable is an example of that urbanism hostility I speak of.
Quote from: algorerhythms on September 04, 2023, 12:24:32 PM
Quote from: kalvado on September 04, 2023, 11:16:10 AM
Quote from: algorerhythms on September 04, 2023, 10:52:01 AM
Balanced planning is one thing, but that is very rarely what we get in the U.S. Personally, I'm not "anti-car". Cars are like any other technology, they can be used well and they can be used poorly. By building infrastructure that makes driving a basic requirement of life (to the point where we let 90+-year-old people who are incapable of driving safely to continue driving because taking away their license would be cruel), we are not using this technology well. There need to be alternatives available for people who either are not capable of driving, or don't want to drive. In most of the U.S. those alternatives don't exist, and if you suggest them you get shouted down as being "anti-car".
This significantly depends on population density. Single family homes on even a small lot are not well suited for anything other than personal transportation. Walking a few miles a day in any weather isn't really an option for most people. Biking is also weather dependent.
Density is the bigger issue in general; city centers with lots of business requiring commute from those sparse outer areas do have problems with accomodations to both concepts.
Walking and biking are even less suitable for 90 year olds, honestly speaking, regardless of weather. The only option is minimized travel distance - high density or delivery. I wonder if increased reliance on delivery has anything to do with population aging?
Walking and biking aren't the only alternatives that can exist. If there was a decent public transit system, then our theoretical 90-year-old could use that. But basic public transit generally isn't invested in in North America because it's assumed it's only for the poor; I've heard people casually refer to buses as "loser cruisers" -- and the bus service around where I live is so bad that it is literally faster to walk than to take the bus. And that's not even to get into the fact that in much of North America it's illegal to build anything other than those low-density developments -- so despite a housing shortage in many areas, particularly in high-demand places like California, it's illegal to build higher density housing that could help meet that demand (though IIRC that has changed recently in California, it's still true in many areas).
Again, public transportation works in high density areas. Single family house on a lot precludes meaningful pubic transportation - until it is a park and ride to a major employment / event center.
Investments in public transportation are enormous, but they get burnt through. on one hand because nobody realizes the scale of cash burn; on the other - because accountability is non-existent. It's ironic, but public transportation is often more expensive than driving.
Single-family format is indeed very resource intensive and has to shrink. But, as discussed in a parallel thread, apartment building are being built. I do see plenty of new-builts around. Probably best way to improve things is to clean up city centers of
slums historic areas. That would instantly be called "gentrification" and throwned upon. Not to mention such thing as jobs - people need to make their living, concept seemingly foreign to urbanist ideology.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 04, 2023, 11:26:51 AMWhile there should be alternatives available the problem is the urbanism advocacy has done a poor job advocating for them. Demanding things like the removal of freeways like I-275 in Tampa or going on Reddit to create "fuck cars" threads doesn't endear to the masses. Stuff like CityNerd equating the entire road community as akin to Kernals12 is an example of the low brow behavior typical in the urbanism crowd.
As someone who does distance running and cycling I have every incentive to support multimodal transportation corridors. I would just prefer a less insane crowd to be pushing for and creating the best models for everything.
The problem is the medium to broadcast these (and many other) messages has equated one-sided extremism with Signal, and balanced collaboration as Noise to be subsequently filtered.
Quote from: formulanone on September 04, 2023, 01:36:41 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 04, 2023, 11:26:51 AMWhile there should be alternatives available the problem is the urbanism advocacy has done a poor job advocating for them. Demanding things like the removal of freeways like I-275 in Tampa or going on Reddit to create "fuck cars" threads doesn't endear to the masses. Stuff like CityNerd equating the entire road community as akin to Kernals12 is an example of the low brow behavior typical in the urbanism crowd.
As someone who does distance running and cycling I have every incentive to support multimodal transportation corridors. I would just prefer a less insane crowd to be pushing for and creating the best models for everything.
The problem is the medium to broadcast these (and many other) messages has equated one-sided extremism with Signal, and balanced collaboration as Noise to be subsequently filtered.
Yes, part of the problem is that the wrong people screaming the loudest get the most attention.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 04, 2023, 02:11:13 PM
Quote from: formulanone on September 04, 2023, 01:36:41 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 04, 2023, 11:26:51 AMWhile there should be alternatives available the problem is the urbanism advocacy has done a poor job advocating for them. Demanding things like the removal of freeways like I-275 in Tampa or going on Reddit to create "fuck cars" threads doesn't endear to the masses. Stuff like CityNerd equating the entire road community as akin to Kernals12 is an example of the low brow behavior typical in the urbanism crowd.
As someone who does distance running and cycling I have every incentive to support multimodal transportation corridors. I would just prefer a less insane crowd to be pushing for and creating the best models for everything.
The problem is the medium to broadcast these (and many other) messages has equated one-sided extremism with Signal, and balanced collaboration as Noise to be subsequently filtered.
Yes, part of the problem is that the wrong people screaming the loudest get the most attention.
More or less always the case. It's hard to get masses involved into long-term gradual change, promises of instant gratification via existing system destruction gain much more support. Media follows the general path.