In the discussion on international travel in the Chicagoland meet thread, I posited a question that the moderators apparently deleted.
I think it's a germane discussion in general and one worthy of having on a high level.
In that thread, someone mentioned needing some kind of electronic proof of vaccination. One day last week, I saw a news story that was accompanied by a photo of some sort of device scanning something on a smartphone in Europe for proof of vaccination[/size].
So my question was; are we getting to a point where owning a smartphone is going to become a requirement to participate in society?
There are some on this board who have said they still use flip phones or other kinds of "dumb phones," and we all probably know someone who doesn't even own a cellphone of any kind.
Will some of the various vaccine requirements end up in everyone having to buy a smartphone and maintain a data plan to live?
This is going to be a windfall for Apple, Motorola, Samsung, Verizon, AT&T, and other wireless carriers and device manufacturers if so. Makes one wonder if they haven't been lobbying for these mandates.
This isn't meant to be another COVID thread. It's meant to be a discussion on what may become a de facto requirement to own a specific type of device or subscribe to a specific service. As late as 1995, I knew someone (worked with them, in fact) who did not have a landline phone. If you wanted to get in touch with them, you either sent them a letter or you went to see them.
Remember the commercial where everyone is paying with plastic and someone paying with cash gums up the works? Are we heading toward something like that?
A lot of sports and entertainment venues have moved to using digital ticketing only since reopening, with the physical traditional or paper print-at-home tickets no longer allowed. I had moved to using digital tickets for baseball games for the last 3-4 years when it became an option with the Ballpark App so it wasn't an adjustment for me, but given baseball's older fan demographics I wondered if this would pose issues.
I hope not because I don't bring my phone with me a lot of places so I can't be easily reached by people that work for me. Additionally I'm not a huge fan of learning new things with tech related items. I'm finding myself increasingly indifferent to evolving technology as time goes on.
It sure seems like society is heading that way. I sure hope it doesn't become like how credit cards are putting cash out of business (figuratively). You see, I don't like credit cards very much. I don't trust myself enough to pay the credit card bill on time every month when I go off to college (not that I can't discipline myself to do it), so I would rather just pay with cash, checks, or maybe even a debit card so I don't fall into credit card debt. The problem with that is that someday if I buy a house when I'm older, I'll have to provide a credit score so I can apply for a good loan rate. But if I don't have a credit score because I'm not using a credit card, then I'm going to get cheated of a good rate (even if I'm responsible borrowing money outside of credit cards) because I don't have a credit score. Correct me if I'm wrong about this.
Essentially owning a credit card has become so ingrained in our society that not owning one puts you at a disadvantage. For example, some Chick-Fil-A's have gone cashless, meaning if you don't have a credit card, you won't be able to pay for a meal there. Walmart's recently been phasing out traditional registers in favor of self-checkout lanes that only accept credit cards, so if you're paying with cash, then you'll have to suffer through either a longer line at the manned checkout or maybe not even being able to pay at all (I've heard at night Walmarts now don't have anyone manning the registers).
I see a similar thing eventually happening with smartphones. If you don't have one because you don't like the negative aspects of it, then you'll get left behind and will probably end up acquiescing to the idea of a smartphone anyway because you're at a disadvantage. For example, Disney World is ditching their Fastpass system to skip the standby lines in favor of a new system using an app. That's not saying I don't like the idea of a smartphone, as it replaces so many other appliances (I probably will never buy a TV or a traditional camera because a smartphone can also do those things), but I still think there should be an alternate option.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on September 27, 2021, 04:12:50 PM
A lot of sports and entertainment venues have moved to using digital ticketing only since reopening, with the physical traditional or paper print-at-home tickets no longer allowed. I had moved to using digital tickets for baseball games for the last 3-4 years when it became an option with the Ballpark App so it wasn't an adjustment for me, but given baseball's older fan demographics I wondered if this would pose issues.
This is a good point - I looked on the Guaranteed Rate Field website and found this:
QuoteAny fan having issues with his/her telephone or does not have a smartphone should be directed to any open ticket window for assistance.
So you're not completely SOL if you don't have a smartphone.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 04:09:01 PM
In that thread, someone mentioned needing some kind of electronic proof of vaccination[/size]. One day last week, I saw a news story that was accompanied by a photo of some sort of device scanning something on a smartphone in Europe for proof of vaccination[/size].
WRT "vaccine passports", my guess is that non-smartphone users will be accommodated somehow, such as with printed QR codes instead of the ones displayed in smartphone apps. I know that Quebec, which doesn't make its electronic vaccine passport available to non-residents, is allowing them to instead use paper proof of vaccination, along with proof of non-residency such as a driver's license.
Quote from: CoreySamson on September 27, 2021, 04:50:11 PM
Essentially owning a credit card has become so ingrained in our society that not owning one puts you at a disadvantage. For example, some Chick-Fil-A's have gone cashless, meaning if you don't have a credit card, you won't be able to pay for a meal there. Walmart's recently been phasing out traditional registers in favor of self-checkout lanes that only accept credit cards, so if you're paying with cash, then you'll have to suffer through either a longer line at the manned checkout or maybe not even being able to pay at all (I've heard at night Walmarts now don't have anyone manning the registers).
I don't know how things evolved at WalMart, but at my local grocery store (Hannaford), the self checkouts used to accept cash but no longer do. Not sure what the story is there. I thought it was a temporary malfunction but it's been weeks now.
I had to use my CDC vaccination card to enter restaurants in BC since their app only works with Canadian health cards. Would have been a lot more convenient with the app.
Smartphones are already required for work across a lot of industries, so it's only a matter of time. Trying to accommodate those without smartphones often ends up leading to convoluted solutions; for example, when we started allowing floating bikeshare to replace our docked system, companies were required to allow rentals by text but those could only be paid with a prepaid card purchased at a convenience store. Our docked system at least had keyfobs that didn't require a phone connection.
At the rate we are going as a society, not having one will be like going out somewhere without pants; you're probably not going to get in.
Quote from: vdeane on September 27, 2021, 05:13:19 PM
Quote from: CoreySamson on September 27, 2021, 04:50:11 PM
Essentially owning a credit card has become so ingrained in our society that not owning one puts you at a disadvantage. For example, some Chick-Fil-A's have gone cashless, meaning if you don't have a credit card, you won't be able to pay for a meal there. Walmart's recently been phasing out traditional registers in favor of self-checkout lanes that only accept credit cards, so if you're paying with cash, then you'll have to suffer through either a longer line at the manned checkout or maybe not even being able to pay at all (I've heard at night Walmarts now don't have anyone manning the registers).
I don't know how things evolved at WalMart, but at my local grocery store (Hannaford), the self checkouts used to accept cash but no longer do. Not sure what the story is there. I thought it was a temporary malfunction but it's been weeks now.
I saw a handful of self-checkout machines at the Meijer in Grand Haven, MI that didn't accept cash.
This is, of course, separate from the regular machines that are "temporarily" not accepting cash.
As technology keeps moving forward, some things will become so standard that if you don't have one you will be seriously behind. Smartphones are one of those things. Almost everyone under 40-50 has one and even my grandparents are starting to use them.
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on September 27, 2021, 06:42:28 PM
As technology keeps moving forward, some things will become so standard that if you don't have one you will be seriously behind. Smartphones are one of those things. Almost everyone under 40-50 has one and even my grandparents are starting to use them.
It's just like when microwaves or the internet became a thing. You don't have to have it to go through life, but it makes it a heck of a lot more convenient if you do.
Chris
I've had no problem paying cash everywhere I go.
Quote from: 1 on September 27, 2021, 06:47:13 PM
I've had no problem paying cash everywhere I go.
Except you're missing out on credit card points. :)
Chris
I have to have a smartphone for work:
To log in to the company network from outside the office, I need to use an RSA token app on a smatphone.
My company's offices are still on pandemic protocols -- we have to complete a health screening checklist on a corporate app, which also ensures we don't have too many people from one department in the same place at the same time.
And, since my office is in Montréal while I live in Connecticut....is there a non-smartphone way to use the ArriveCan app?
Quote from: CoreySamson on September 27, 2021, 04:50:11 PM
Essentially owning a credit card has become so ingrained in our society that not owning one puts you at a disadvantage. For example, some Chick-Fil-A's have gone cashless, meaning if you don't have a credit card, you won't be able to pay for a meal there. Walmart's recently been phasing out traditional registers in favor of self-checkout lanes that only accept credit cards, so if you're paying with cash, then you'll have to suffer through either a longer line at the manned checkout or maybe not even being able to pay at all (I've heard at night Walmarts now don't have anyone manning the registers).
Quote from: vdeane on September 27, 2021, 05:13:19 PM
I don't know how things evolved at WalMart, but at my local grocery store (Hannaford), the self checkouts used to accept cash but no longer do. Not sure what the story is there. I thought it was a temporary malfunction but it's been weeks now.
Speaking of Walmart, we just got a pickup order at our local store and they switched back to drive-up/pick-up. However, they do not issue a receipt with a scan code anymore, and asked that we bring our "device" with the Walmart App to pickup the package. (My new flip-phone is technically a Smartphone, if you want to read the App on the size of a postage stamp). Anyhow, they did take our paperwork but they were certainly confused when we asked for the paperwork (receipt) back.
I know a fellow who claims he was unable to renew his Nationals season tickets because he doesn't have a smartphone. I was under the impression people without smartphones could go to the box office for assistance, but maybe that's only for single-game buyers.
(I should note he's a bit of an odd fellow in that he lives in Virginia but doesn't own a car either. He used to have season tickets to the Nationals, Capitals, Bullets, Redskins, Mystics (no joke), and DC United, and he took the bus and the subway to all of them. He dropped the Redskins a few years ago because there were too many night games and it was too hard to get home because the Metro closes too early.)
The concession stands at Verizon Center are to be cashless this coming season. I haven't been to a baseball game this year, so I don't know if the same applies at Nationals Park, and I couldn't care less about FedEx Field (no desire to go back after having to pay $60 to park there for a U2 concert a few years ago).
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 04:09:01 PM
v@cc1nat10n ... v@cc1nat10n ... v@cc1ne ... c0v1d
Please stop doing this.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 27, 2021, 08:53:57 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 04:09:01 PM
v@cc1nat10n ... v@cc1nat10n ... v@cc1ne ... c0v1d
Please stop doing this.
I have edited the post and I hope it is not reedited.
Quote from: Alps on September 27, 2021, 09:11:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 27, 2021, 08:53:57 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 04:09:01 PM
v@cc1nat10n ... v@cc1nat10n ... v@cc1ne ... c0v1d
Please stop doing this.
I have edited the post and I hope it is not reedited.
It needs to be reedited due to a malformed ending size tag.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 27, 2021, 08:53:57 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 04:09:01 PM
v@cc1nat10n ... v@cc1nat10n ... v@cc1ne ... c0v1d
Please stop doing this.
I'll try, although to be honest, it's become a habit anytime I type those words so the social media nags don't affix meaningless nags or "fact" checks.
Regarding work requiring smartphones: If it's a work-provided device, are you allowed to use it for personal reasons? Could you, for instance, put an event ticketing app on it and use it if that app served no work purpose?
One of my co-workers is retiring this week, and for the first time, she's having to get her own phone. In the past, she's used her work phone with various installed apps.
Regarding cash vs. plastic, after a lull in the notices, I've again started to see signs about a coin shortage with preferences for people to pay with plastic instead of legal tender. Self-checkouts, I've noticed, area about 65-35 both methods over card only, although I have seen an increasing number of "no cash back" limitations.
A co-worker of mine doesn't carry a lot of cash on trips. When he runs low, he'll duck into Walmart or a similar retailer and buy something inexpensive, and then get a sum of cash back off his debit card to tide him over.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 09:18:46 PM
Regarding cash vs. plastic, after a lull in the notices, I've again started to see signs about a coin shortage with preferences for people to pay with plastic instead of legal tender.
If you pay exact change, they would probably appreciate it even more than paying with plastic, as it means they have more coins (and small bills) to give out as change to those who don't follow the signs.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 09:18:46 PM
I'll try, although to be honest, it's become a habit anytime I type those words so the social media nags don't affix meaningless nags or "fact" checks.
I'm not aware of any automated fact checking (other than one user-created bot on Reddit several years ago that infamously ranted against the fish parasites myth when seeing "selfish parasites"). It would seem way too prone to false positives.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 09:18:46 PM
Regarding work requiring smartphones: If it's a work-provided device, are you allowed to use it for personal reasons? Could you, for instance, put an event ticketing app on it and use it if that app served no work purpose?
It really depends on how strict your employer's policies are. I think most allow a reasonable amount of personal use. I know a lot of companies are also switching to BYOD so then it becomes irrelevant.
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 27, 2021, 09:28:30 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 09:18:46 PM
Regarding work requiring smartphones: If it's a work-provided device, are you allowed to use it for personal reasons? Could you, for instance, put an event ticketing app on it and use it if that app served no work purpose?
It really depends on how strict your employer's policies are. I think most allow a reasonable amount of personal use. I know a lot of companies are also switching to BYOD so then it becomes irrelevant.
A major problem with that is that if you use your personal device for work reasons, it becomes discoverable in any legal actions. I occasionally had to do work stuff after hours from home on personal equipment years ago, but once work devices were issued to me, I keep all my work stuff off the stuff I own.
Quote from: 1 on September 27, 2021, 09:21:25 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 09:18:46 PM
Regarding cash vs. plastic, after a lull in the notices, I've again started to see signs about a coin shortage with preferences for people to pay with plastic instead of legal tender.
If you pay exact change, they would probably appreciate it even more than paying with plastic, as it means they have more coins (and small bills) to give out as change to those who don't follow the signs.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 09:18:46 PM
I'll try, although to be honest, it's become a habit anytime I type those words so the social media nags don't affix meaningless nags or "fact" checks.
I'm not aware of any automated fact checking (other than one user-created bot on Reddit several years ago that infamously ranted against the fish parasites myth when seeing "selfish parasites"). It would seem way too prone to false positives.
He's talking about the Facebook tags to posts that lead you to credible sources about vaccinations and COVID. If you mention either, Facebook provides the links to fight misinformation about them.
Regarding work phone issues described above. I just get around the problem by bouncing work calls to my personal cell.
Quote from: Rothman on September 27, 2021, 09:34:11 PM
Quote from: 1 on September 27, 2021, 09:21:25 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 09:18:46 PM
Regarding cash vs. plastic, after a lull in the notices, I've again started to see signs about a coin shortage with preferences for people to pay with plastic instead of legal tender.
If you pay exact change, they would probably appreciate it even more than paying with plastic, as it means they have more coins (and small bills) to give out as change to those who don't follow the signs.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 09:18:46 PM
I'll try, although to be honest, it's become a habit anytime I type those words so the social media nags don't affix meaningless nags or "fact" checks.
I'm not aware of any automated fact checking (other than one user-created bot on Reddit several years ago that infamously ranted against the fish parasites myth when seeing "selfish parasites"). It would seem way too prone to false positives.
He's talking about the Facebook tags to posts that lead you to credible sources about vaccinations and COVID. If you mention either, Facebook provides the links to fight misinformation about them.
Any mention seems a bit excessive, but it might be necessary, as only tagging the false ones would be hard to figure out by an AI in the example below:
Should be flagged: Ivermectin works
Should not be flagged: Why do people think Ivermectin works?
Should not be flagged: People have been protesting outside hospitals with signs saying Ivermectin works
Should not be flagged: Ivermectin works poorly
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 09:32:57 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 27, 2021, 09:28:30 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 09:18:46 PM
Regarding work requiring smartphones: If it's a work-provided device, are you allowed to use it for personal reasons? Could you, for instance, put an event ticketing app on it and use it if that app served no work purpose?
It really depends on how strict your employer's policies are. I think most allow a reasonable amount of personal use. I know a lot of companies are also switching to BYOD so then it becomes irrelevant.
A major problem with that is that if you use your personal device for work reasons, it becomes discoverable in any legal actions. I occasionally had to do work stuff after hours from home on personal equipment years ago, but once work devices were issued to me, I keep all my work stuff off the stuff I own.
That, and the fact that if an employer wants you to have a device to do work functions on, they need to pay to get you that device. The whole purpose of getting a job is to
make money, not to have some new reason to
spend money. (I don't need a boss for that–I'm already married.)
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 27, 2021, 09:28:30 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 09:18:46 PM
Regarding work requiring smartphones: If it's a work-provided device, are you allowed to use it for personal reasons? Could you, for instance, put an event ticketing app on it and use it if that app served no work purpose?
It really depends on how strict your employer's policies are.
Indeed. My father, who works as a doctor for the local hospital, is allowed to install any app in the App Store that he wants on his work-issued phone, and he uses the phone as his personal cell as well because he looks at it as "hey work is paying for my phone, why should I pay for another one?"
On the other hand, there are other employers who keep their work-issued devices locked down tight and make it so you can't install anything on them other than specific approved work-related apps. If you work for one of these companies you can't realistically use your work phone for personal stuff, they straight up won't let you.
The other pitfall of using your work phone for personal use is that your employer then owns/controls your phone number... so you'll need to get a new number when you change jobs, inform all your contacts of such, update all your online accounts that use your phone number for 2-factor authentication, etc.
Regarding the original question, I don't think it's very common to actually be
required to have a smartphone, some places just decline to advertise the alternatives in order to try to push everyone into downloading their app.
MLB, for example, makes it
sound like you need the MLB Ballpark app to get into a game, but you don't actually. The ticketmaster website is able to generate the QR codes necessary to scan you in so you can get in without using the app (I have done so myself, even). In theory this also means you could print out said QR code rather than bringing it on your phone, and it would scan - so you could get in without using a smartphone, at least so long as the person at the gate doesn't decide to give you a hard time about it. FWIW, I have witnessed someone get into a ballpark with a printed out screenshot this year, though have not attempted this myself.
It's also worth noting that bringing your own device means that your employer now has a say in how that device operates. That's certainly not my cup of tea. I won't even run Windows 10 in part because I don't even want Microsoft doing that (this is incidentally why streaming media can be touchy on Linux - the copyright holders don't like that Linux allows users to be their own IT admins, whereas Microsoft and Apple are more than happy to usurp user control to enforce DRM restrictions and whatnot).
Quote from: vdeane on September 27, 2021, 10:36:20 PM
It's also worth noting that bringing your own device means that your employer now has a say in how that device operates. That's certainly not my cup of tea. I won't even run Windows 10 in part because I don't even want Microsoft doing that (this is incidentally why streaming media can be touchy on Linux - the copyright holders don't like that Linux allows users to be their own IT admins, whereas Microsoft and Apple are more than happy to usurp user control to enforce DRM restrictions and whatnot).
Of course, Linux being how it is, chances are there's either check boxes buried in the Edit Preferences dialog, or flags that can be set in the program's RC file, for "Ignore DRM" and/or "Spoof user agent"!
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 04:09:01 PMIn that thread, someone mentioned needing some kind of electronic proof of vaccination. One day last week, I saw a news story that was accompanied by a photo of some sort of device scanning something on a smartphone in Europe for proof of vaccination.
So my question was; are we getting to a point where owning a smartphone is going to become a requirement to participate in society?
We may very well be headed in that direction, but I am not aware of a vaccine-verification program that requires possession of a smartphone. In France, for example, the proof is also issued in paper form (similarly to CDC cards here in the US), so that can be used as an alternate to a covid app on a smartphone.
Quote from: CoreySamson on September 27, 2021, 04:50:11 PMIt sure seems like society is heading that way. I sure hope it doesn't become like how credit cards are putting cash out of business (figuratively). You see, I don't like credit cards very much. I don't trust myself enough to pay the credit card bill on time every month when I go off to college (not that I can't discipline myself to do it), so I would rather just pay with cash, checks, or maybe even a debit card so I don't fall into credit card debt. The problem with that is that someday if I buy a house when I'm older, I'll have to provide a credit score so I can apply for a good loan rate. But if I don't have a credit score because I'm not using a credit card, then I'm going to get cheated of a good rate (even if I'm responsible borrowing money outside of credit cards) because I don't have a credit score. Correct me if I'm wrong about this.
There are two related but separate problems here--billminding and building a credit history.
In order to have a credit score, you need to have a credit history. Credit cards help build one, but so do store cards, car loans, and so on.
But in order to have a
good credit history, you need to show that you consistently pay bills in full and on time. Personal finance 101 is to use a credit card
for the float only--in other words, don't spend more with the card in a given billing cycle than you have available in the bank to cover the bill when it comes, so that you can pay it in full. People sometimes think they have to pay less than the full amount (sometimes the minimum payment, sometimes an amount between the minimum and the full outstanding amount), and later pay it off, so that they can show the credit rating agencies that they can carry a balance from month to month. That is a myth: failure to pay the bill in full every month only invites the agencies to think that you are living beyond your means and are therefore a poor credit risk.
Paying bills on time is indeed one area in which young (and not-so-young) adults can stumble. It helps to have one place where all bills are kept before they are paid, and get in the habit of sitting down to pay them and handle other household finance tasks (such as balancing the checkbook, updating a Quicken transaction register, etc.) on a regular basis, say once a week. Some people are very disciplined about opening a bill on the day it arrives in the mail and writing the amount and due date on the outside of the envelope as a reminder.
Autopay can be a good solution if you are sure you will have enough in the source bank account to meet expenses without it going into overdraft at any point (e.g., your bills are predictable and you can cover this month's with last month's income), but you do still have to monitor your account for surprises (e.g., a big water bill from a leak in the supply line between the street and your house). You should also assume that cancelling an automatic payment (e.g., to stop a gym membership you aren't using) will be a two-step process--terminating the contract with the payee and cancelling the payment mandate with your bank.
Quote from: CoreySamson on September 27, 2021, 04:50:11 PMEssentially owning a credit card has become so ingrained in our society that not owning one puts you at a disadvantage. For example, some Chick-Fil-A's have gone cashless, meaning if you don't have a credit card, you won't be able to pay for a meal there. Walmart's recently been phasing out traditional registers in favor of self-checkout lanes that only accept credit cards, so if you're paying with cash, then you'll have to suffer through either a longer line at the manned checkout or maybe not even being able to pay at all (I've heard at night Walmarts now don't have anyone manning the registers).
For years now it's been difficult to rent a car or check into a motel without a credit card. Even with a debit card, it can be difficult to buy fuel at the pump due to temporary holds placed on your funds. While preloaded cards and the like ensure the unbanked (6% of US households) aren't completely cut off from the plastic world, a credit card is still worth having for enhanced fraud protection. If the credit limit is high enough, you basically never have to worry about fiddly stuff like $50 holds as a result of refueling your car.
Quote from: Duke87 on September 27, 2021, 10:34:51 PM
....
MLB, for example, makes it sound like you need the MLB Ballpark app to get into a game, but you don't actually. The ticketmaster website is able to generate the QR codes necessary to scan you in so you can get in without using the app (I have done so myself, even). In theory this also means you could print out said QR code rather than bringing it on your phone, and it would scan - so you could get in without using a smartphone, at least so long as the person at the gate doesn't decide to give you a hard time about it. FWIW, I have witnessed someone get into a ballpark with a printed out screenshot this year, though have not attempted this myself.
I know that at Verizon Center, at least, screenshots and printouts haven't worked for several years, and the mobile ticket tells you that in big letters, but people persist in trying and it always holds up the line.
I added my ticket to tomorrow night's preseason hockey game to the Apple Wallet on my phone. I see it doesn't have a QR code, though. I'll be interested to see whether the code populates tonight (24 hours before game time) or whether they have a new reader system.
Regarding a vaccination-proof program, if you go somewhere that uses CLEAR (same company that runs the express lane to skip the ID checkpoint at some airports), you have to use their app (which is free for the medical record feature), although I've heard sports arenas that use them may offer an alternative for people who don't have smartphones.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2021, 02:22:46 AM
But in order to have a good credit history, you need to show that you consistently pay bills in full and on time. Personal finance 101 is to use a credit card for the float only--in other words, don't spend more with the card in a given billing cycle than you have available in the bank to cover the bill when it comes, so that you can pay it in full. People sometimes think they have to pay less than the full amount (sometimes the minimum payment, sometimes an amount between the minimum and the full outstanding amount), and later pay it off, so that they can show the credit rating agencies that they can carry a balance from month to month. That is a myth: failure to pay the bill in full every month only invites the agencies to think that you are living beyond your means and are therefore a poor credit risk.
I agree with this 100%. In addition, you're likely to incur interest on any outstanding balance if you don't pay in full every month.
When you start thinking about a credit card differently than a debit card because you don't *have* to have the money right then and there, that's when you start running into issues with living beyond your means. Then debt and interest can pile up very quickly, so it's best not to ever go down that track to begin with.
I've never understood the point of having a credit card if you have a positive amount of money. Why not just take it out of what you have and avoid paying interest?
Quote from: 1 on September 28, 2021, 08:15:42 AM
I've never understood the point of having a credit card if you have a positive amount of money. Why not just take it out of what you have and avoid paying interest?
It's mainly for:
1) convenience
2) building your credit score, as has been discussed in this thread
Also, most (all?) cards don't accrue interest as long as you pay in full every month.
I never really used the credit card points thing myself. I tried it a couple times but I would sometimes forget to pay everything off before the interest hit. That was enough to dissuade me from the practice. My wife is big on paying on credit card and paying them off. She has to constantly monitor the activity of those cards which seems like too much work versus accumulating maybe $100-$200 dollars in rewards annually.
Quote from: 1 on September 28, 2021, 08:15:42 AM
I've never understood the point of having a credit card if you have a positive amount of money. Why not just take it out of what you have and avoid paying interest?
- Faster to use
- Can use any self-serve cashier station, many do not accept cash
- Can keep track of finances much easier
- Receive points for any manner of things based on the type of credit card
- Build credit. Part of your credit score is average age of credit account, and having one that is 24 years old and counting is helpful for my score
- Avoid a huge loss of cash if you get robbed, lose your wallet, etc
Quote from: SectorZ on September 28, 2021, 08:45:45 AM
Quote from: 1 on September 28, 2021, 08:15:42 AM
I've never understood the point of having a credit card if you have a positive amount of money. Why not just take it out of what you have and avoid paying interest?
- Faster to use
- Can use any self-serve cashier station, many do not accept cash
- Can keep track of finances much easier
- Receive points for any manner of things based on the type of credit card
- Build credit. Part of your credit score is average age of credit account, and having one that is 24 years old and counting is helpful for my score
- Avoid a huge loss of cash if you get robbed, lose your wallet, etc
Some of those can just as easily be done with a debit card.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 28, 2021, 08:26:45 AM
I never really used the credit card points thing myself. I tried it a couple times but I would sometimes forget to pay everything off before the interest hit. That was enough to dissuade me from the practice. My wife is big on paying on credit card and paying them off. She has to constantly monitor the activity of those cards which seems like too much work versus accumulating maybe $100-$200 dollars in rewards annually.
I use the various rewards features. Discover, for example, has 5 percent cashback bonus (up to $75 maximum) at grocery stores from January to the end of March each year. Of course I pay for the groceries with Discover during that time period. If you spend $100 at the grocery store, that's $5, which isn't much on its own, but I always max out the $75 without even trying over the course of the three months, and $75 is a significant enough amount (I roll it back in as a statement credit). Last year, American Express had a wireless phone service credit available, so of course I set my mobile phone bill to autopay with American Express. (A traditional American Express charge card, of course, requires paying the balance in full every month, though some of those charge cards will let you extend payment but with a high interest rate.)
The key is not to get obsessed with the rewards and points to a degree where you waste a lot of time thinking about it.
I used a debit card once upon a time when I was in my 20s and didn't know any better. It made a mess of my bank statements due to the sheer volume of transactions. Using American Express made for a much cleaner statement. (I know, many 20-somethings don't scrutinize bank statements for errors, either. Their mistake.)
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2021, 02:22:46 AM
For years now it's been difficult to rent a car or check into a motel without a credit card. Even with a debit card, it can be difficult to buy fuel at the pump due to temporary holds placed on your funds. While preloaded cards and the like ensure the unbanked (6% of US households) aren't completely cut off from the plastic world, a credit card is still worth having for enhanced fraud protection. If the credit limit is high enough, you basically never have to worry about fiddly stuff like $50 holds as a result of refueling your car.
For fuel, I know people who buy gift cards with cash and then use the gift cards to pay for fuel at the pump. Seems like a lot of effort to avoid using a credit card, but at least they avoid going inside every time they fill up.
I pay off my credit card every month through autopay. I use the points for free hotel nights, which enables travel, which is what life is all about.
Being able to use a credit card like this also allows more cash to pile up in my checking account due to the month delay in needing to pay it off. I find it has a more positive effect on my cash flow than negative -- and I prefer the monthly hit to immediate withdrawals that a debit card induces.
As someone else mentioned, there is more fraud protection with a credit card and fraudulent purchases are easily dealt with. Having to deal with actual hits to cash would be a little more stressful.
That said, if your expenses are right at the level of your income or beyond, I can see a credit card causing serious issues (i.e., if you cannot guarantee enough cash to pay it off every month).
Phones - Not actually required. There are a lot of people who live simply. They don't go to major concerts, big league sports, etc. They also don't care what some actor or athlete posted on twitter or facebook. They can get by, quite well, with a "dumb phone" or even a landline phone. But, it is going to become harder and harder to live an active life style without one.
Credit cards - IMHO, the economically reasonable thing to do is to charge most everything to an "affinity card" related to whatever activity you enjoy (air travel, hotels, cruises, ball games, whatever) and then pay it off without interest. You can rack up SERIOUS points towards free stuff. If you are further down the economic ladder, the standard "cash back" cards are more freely available and cash is cash. If you really cannot find an affinity card for something you like, a lot of charities and such have cards that will send the cash back to it.
The next step is for places to STOP TAKING CHECKS. Anyone with a checking account can get a free debit card that works just like a credit card. Writing a check when people are behind you is rude. The 1950s are over, it was in all the papers.
Cash - Cash has a cost, especially to small businesses. Somebody has to go to and from the bank every day, which that somebody gets paid for that. Also the risk of robbery is a thing. For example, my dry cleaner hasn't taken cash for years. Works great, and, with no cash on hand, who is going to rob the place?
I carry some cash, for emergencies, but the only time I use cash normally is to tip, since the waiter usually can just pocket the cash tips and what Uncle Sucker don't know, won't hurt him.
I do think that with the inflation that seems to be coming is that the dollar bill is finally going to go away. It isn't needed and is, AFAIK, the lowest value paper money among major countries. The smallest Canadian bill is a 5, which is $3.95 US, the smallest Euro is also a 5, which is $5.85, the smallest Pound is also a 5, which is $6.50 US.
I read that the government has billions of dollar coins in a warehouse in Baltimore, because some obscure law made them mint so many, despite no banks ordering them. So many they could replace the bills overnight without any issues.
As dumb as having a bill that might = one vended Coke, imagine in 10 years when it might = 1/3rd of a vended Coke.
Rant - The one thing that cell phones could change, and haven't. Hotels. Checking into a hotel. You still have to deal with some clerk and go though a long and paper intensive process. There is no reason that an app could not recognize you when you walked in, causing a dispenser to dispense a keycard (or have the phone itself be the key) with no human interaction. It shouldn't take 15 minutes to check into a hotel.
Quote from: SP Cook on September 28, 2021, 09:42:22 AMRant - The one thing that cell phones could change, and haven't. Hotels. Checking into a hotel. You still have to deal with some clerk and go though a long and paper intensive process. There is no reason that an app could not recognize you when you walked in, causing a dispenser to dispense a keycard (or have the phone itself be the key) with no human interaction. It shouldn't take 15 minutes to check into a hotel.
The Hilton chain offers this through their app. You can select your room, check in, and even use your phone as your key at some hotels.
I was sitting here wondering why kiosks never caught on with car rental companies [in the past, I've used them at National, Alamo, and Hertz], and then I thought, duh, the kiosk can't give customers the hard sell on insurance, prepaid fuel, etc. Although, with numerous agencies offering frequent renters the option to go straight to their car, they're probably unnecessary.
Quote from: SP Cook on September 28, 2021, 09:42:22 AM
I do think that with the inflation that seems to be coming is that the dollar bill is finally going to go away. It isn't needed and is, AFAIK, the lowest value paper money among major countries. The smallest Canadian bill is a 5, which is $3.95 US, the smallest Euro is also a 5, which is $5.85, the smallest Pound is also a 5, which is $6.50 US.
India, Russia, and Indonesia all have smaller bills than US$1. That said, I absolutely do think that the $1 bill should be replaced with a coin.
Quote from: SP Cook on September 28, 2021, 09:42:22 AMCash - Cash has a cost, especially to small businesses. Somebody has to go to and from the bank every day, which that somebody gets paid for that. Also the risk of robbery is a thing. For example, my dry cleaner hasn't taken cash for years. Works great, and, with no cash on hand, who is going to rob the place?
Businesses don't need to pay credit card fees when cash is used, and in some cases, they don't have to pay taxes, either. Also, when a system fails, it's much more likely that cash works and credit doesn't than the other way around.
Quote from: SP Cook on September 28, 2021, 09:42:22 AM
I carry some cash, for emergencies, but the only time I use cash normally is to tip, since the waiter usually can just pocket the cash tips and what Uncle Sucker don't know, won't hurt him.
I do think that with the inflation that seems to be coming is that the dollar bill is finally going to go away. It isn't needed and is, AFAIK, the lowest value paper money among major countries. The smallest Canadian bill is a 5, which is $3.95 US, the smallest Euro is also a 5, which is $5.85, the smallest Pound is also a 5, which is $6.50 US.
I wish the dollar bill would go away, but you've identified one issue with dollar coins: $20 in dollar coins is a hell of a lot heavier and bulkier than dollar bills. I don't know how restaurants handle it now, whether servers turn in excess cash every so often or what, but that'd be a logistical hurdle to deal with.
I missed the conversation last night about credit card points, but I have mine all set to auto pay the balance every month so I never pay interest and I've been able to travel to 66 countries because I've played the mileage game. Seems well worth it to me, not to mention the purchase protection and whatnot you get from a credit card vs. a debit card.
Chris
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 28, 2021, 09:48:48 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on September 28, 2021, 09:42:22 AMRant - The one thing that cell phones could change, and haven't. Hotels. Checking into a hotel. You still have to deal with some clerk and go though a long and paper intensive process. There is no reason that an app could not recognize you when you walked in, causing a dispenser to dispense a keycard (or have the phone itself be the key) with no human interaction. It shouldn't take 15 minutes to check into a hotel.
The Hilton chain offers this through their app. You can select your room, check in, and even use your phone as your key at some hotels.
....
The Hilton "Digital Key" feature is fantastic. The app lets you check in and select your room up to 24 hours in advance. When you do, if the hotel supports the "Digital Key," you can request it then (or at any time), so when you get to the hotel you simply bypass the check-in desk and go directly to your room and use your phone to unlock the door via Bluetooth. It's great when there's a line at the desk. You can also check out via the app. The one downside is that if you are travelling with someone else–you can only have ONE digital key per room, so either both of you must be together or you have to go to the desk to get a second key. But at least you can do that at a time when it's less busy. (Consider the likely wait time difference between arriving at a New York City hotel at 6:30 PM versus stopping by the desk at 9:30 for an extra key.)
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 28, 2021, 10:06:01 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 28, 2021, 09:48:48 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on September 28, 2021, 09:42:22 AMRant - The one thing that cell phones could change, and haven't. Hotels. Checking into a hotel. You still have to deal with some clerk and go though a long and paper intensive process. There is no reason that an app could not recognize you when you walked in, causing a dispenser to dispense a keycard (or have the phone itself be the key) with no human interaction. It shouldn't take 15 minutes to check into a hotel.
The Hilton chain offers this through their app. You can select your room, check in, and even use your phone as your key at some hotels.
....
The Hilton "Digital Key" feature is fantastic. The app lets you check in and select your room up to 24 hours in advance. When you do, if the hotel supports the "Digital Key," you can request it then (or at any time), so when you get to the hotel you simply bypass the check-in desk and go directly to your room and use your phone to unlock the door via Bluetooth. It's great when there's a line at the desk. You can also check out via the app. The one downside is that if you are travelling with someone else–you can only have ONE digital key per room, so either both of you must be together or you have to go to the desk to get a second key. But at least you can do that at a time when it's less busy. (Consider the likely wait time difference between arriving at a New York City hotel at 6:30 PM versus stopping by the desk at 9:30 for an extra key.)
Marriott has this as well, just in case anyone were interested. It's called Mobile Key.
Chris
^ I think most big hotel chains have this feature by now. I can say it for sure for Hyatt (the brand I stay in most often), though their number of properties that supports digital key is somewhat limited.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 28, 2021, 10:06:01 AM
The one downside is that if you are travelling with someone else–you can only have ONE digital key per room, so either both of you must be together or you have to go to the desk to get a second key. But at least you can do that at a time when it's less busy. (Consider the likely wait time difference between arriving at a New York City hotel at 6:30 PM versus stopping by the desk at 9:30 for an extra key.)
That's why I don't use it; I rarely travel alone [and I thought the rule was "one digital key OR keycard(s)," oops].
On the other hand, I can't remember the last time I've had to wait in an obnoxiously long line to check into a hotel.
Quote from: jayhawkco on September 28, 2021, 10:08:26 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 28, 2021, 10:06:01 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on September 28, 2021, 09:48:48 AM
Quote from: SP Cook on September 28, 2021, 09:42:22 AMRant - The one thing that cell phones could change, and haven’t. Hotels. Checking into a hotel. You still have to deal with some clerk and go though a long and paper intensive process. There is no reason that an app could not recognize you when you walked in, causing a dispenser to dispense a keycard (or have the phone itself be the key) with no human interaction. It shouldn’t take 15 minutes to check into a hotel.
The Hilton chain offers this through their app. You can select your room, check in, and even use your phone as your key at some hotels.
....
The Hilton "Digital Key" feature is fantastic. The app lets you check in and select your room up to 24 hours in advance. When you do, if the hotel supports the "Digital Key," you can request it then (or at any time), so when you get to the hotel you simply bypass the check-in desk and go directly to your room and use your phone to unlock the door via Bluetooth. It's great when there's a line at the desk. You can also check out via the app. The one downside is that if you are travelling with someone else—you can only have ONE digital key per room, so either both of you must be together or you have to go to the desk to get a second key. But at least you can do that at a time when it's less busy. (Consider the likely wait time difference between arriving at a New York City hotel at 6:30 PM versus stopping by the desk at 9:30 for an extra key.)
Marriott has this as well, just in case anyone were interested. It's called Mobile Key.
Chris
Most Hilton properties use it, but I've only tried it twice. Some of the newer or recently-renovated properties have it, but about half do not.
Intercontinental Hotels/Holdings? Group (Holiday Inn, et al) has mobile check-in, but you can't pick the room and I haven't stayed at one that unlocks the door via phone.
Actually haven't stayed at a Marriott property in well over a year...work has gone back to selecting 90% of our hotels. The other 10% seem to be small towns without a negotiated rate, so the pickings are slim.
I think the plastic cards aren't costing the hotels much anyhow, and I doubt the front desk folks feel like troubleshooting people's phones (even if the doorknob assemblies are at fault). Given enough time in a hotel; say 3-5 years, anything can and will be worn out from its clientele, especially anything that gets slammed and is more high-tech than a toilet flange.
Quote from: 1 on September 28, 2021, 08:47:38 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on September 28, 2021, 08:45:45 AM
Quote from: 1 on September 28, 2021, 08:15:42 AM
I've never understood the point of having a credit card if you have a positive amount of money. Why not just take it out of what you have and avoid paying interest?
- Faster to use
- Can use any self-serve cashier station, many do not accept cash
- Can keep track of finances much easier
- Receive points for any manner of things based on the type of credit card
- Build credit. Part of your credit score is average age of credit account, and having one that is 24 years old and counting is helpful for my score
- Avoid a huge loss of cash if you get robbed, lose your wallet, etc
Some of those can just as easily be done with a debit card.
As mentioned above, some credit cards offer various rewards perks like cash back, airline miles, and the like. One other big benefit is that if you have to dispute a transaction (because it was fraudulent, because the amount was wrong, because you told them to cancel a subscription and they kept charging), you are not actually out any money while the disposition of the case is investigated, because you can just not pay. With a debit card, the amount is removed from your bank account at the time of the charge, and only when the case is decided in your favor is the money refunded to your account.
This has never been a big enough deterrent to using a debit card to me, but it is for some people.
Quote from: SP Cook on September 28, 2021, 09:42:22 AM
Cash - Cash has a cost, especially to small businesses. Somebody has to go to and from the bank every day, which that somebody gets paid for that. Also the risk of robbery is a thing. For example, my dry cleaner hasn't taken cash for years. Works great, and, with no cash on hand, who is going to rob the place?
[...]
I do think that with the inflation that seems to be coming is that the dollar bill is finally going to go away. It isn't needed and is, AFAIK, the lowest value paper money among major countries. The smallest Canadian bill is a 5, which is $3.95 US, the smallest Euro is also a 5, which is $5.85, the smallest Pound is also a 5, which is $6.50 US.
While yes, handling cash increases labor cost and risk, believe it or not, cash-handling costs are still lower than credit-card costs for most merchants. For a $25 transaction, the credit-card fee is roughly $1. While this isn't a whole lot, that $1 fee over and over on each transaction adds up quickly. Also, businesses can batch their cash transactions as desired to avoid going to the bank for every transaction (most cash-accepting businesses do one deposit a day). Assuming you pay minimum wage and a bank run takes 15 minutes, cash will be cheaper after only two transactions.
As for the dollar bill...the only reason it hasn't gone away already is that any change to the $1 bill is prohibited by law. That's also why it's still using the 1963 design while every other denomination except the $2 has been redesigned twice. This law was written by Massachusetts senators because the dollar bill paper company is headquartered there and they didn't want the loss in sales. Otherwise, the government would have ditched the $1 back when the Sacagawea dollar first came out.
I don't really get the objection to $1 coins. If they're too heavy to carry around–don't do that? Leave them at home to take to the bank later? Carry $2 bills?
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 28, 2021, 02:22:46 AM
Paying bills on time is indeed one area in which young (and not-so-young) adults can stumble. It helps to have one place where all bills are kept before they are paid, and get in the habit of sitting down to pay them and handle other household finance tasks (such as balancing the checkbook, updating a Quicken transaction register, etc.) on a regular basis, say once a week. Some people are very disciplined about opening a bill on the day it arrives in the mail and writing the amount and due date on the outside of the envelope as a reminder.
I've found that paying bills physically printed on paper is much easier than bills delivered and paid electronically for some reason. I had all of my bills converted to paperless last November, when USPS became so unstable in the midst of Louis DeJoy's supposedly cost-saving operational changes that I got charged a late fee by my electric company because my payment got lost in the mail. Now, however, I find it more difficult to keep track of what has been paid and what hasn't, because there isn't the reminder of an unpaid bill in my incoming-mail slot on my desk.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 28, 2021, 10:50:41 AM
As for the dollar bill...the only reason it hasn't gone away already is that any change to the $1 bill is prohibited by law. That's also why it's still using the 1963 design while every other denomination except the $2 has been redesigned twice. This law was written by Massachusetts senators because the dollar bill paper company is headquartered there and they didn't want the loss in sales. Otherwise, the government would have ditched the $1 back when the Sacagawea dollar first came out.
I don't really get the objection to $1 coins. If they're too heavy to carry around–don't do that? Leave them at home to take to the bank later? Carry $2 bills?
So don't change the $1 bill. Just stop printing them. The average bill only lasts about 3 years, so in a decade there won't be any left.
Pennies are worthless, so they need to go and cash transactions can be rounded to the nearest nickel.
Dimes and half dollars are also pretty unnecessary. You can pay exact change for any transaction < $2 with no more than 8 coins (1 dollar + 3 quarters + 4 nickels = $1.95).
If you really want to go all the way with this, $10 and $50 are pretty unnecessary as well. $2, $5, $20 and $100 can cover everything you need.
The amount of money you save by not minting all those denominations would be in the billions.
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 28, 2021, 11:22:13 AM
Dimes and half dollars are also pretty unnecessary. You can pay exact change for any transaction < $2 with no more than 8 coins (1 dollar + 3 quarters + 4 nickels = $1.95).
A good test case for this would be Japan, which coins of Â¥1, 5, 10, 50, 100, and 500 (nothing beginning with 2). I've never been there, but someone who has could say whether it works or not. (Â¥1 ≈ 1¢.) The same is true with South Korea, except ₩10 = Â¥1, ₩1 and ₩5 are no longer used due to inflation, and anything above ₩500 is a banknote.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 28, 2021, 10:50:41 AM
Now, however, I find it more difficult to keep track of what has been paid and what hasn't, because there isn't the reminder of an unpaid bill in my incoming-mail slot on my desk.
Don't delete the email notifying you about a payment due until after you've scheduled the payment.
One thing I don't like about that. If I schedule the payment for the due date, the credit card "helpfully" sends me a reminder 7 days or 3 days before it's due that I have a payment due. You mean your fancy-dancy system can't look for scheduled payments before bothering me again?
I don't give creditors direct access to my bank accounts. I use the bank's bill payment system to send payment to the creditors. Most of my electronic bills go directly to my bank, however, so I get an e-mail when one arrives and I can then use the bank's system to schedule the payment. I normally schedule the electronic payment for the business day before the bill is due (e.g., the mortgage is due on the first of the month, so the payment goes out the business day before). Some of them send me nagging e-mails to pay sooner, but I see no reason why I should. They don't reward you for paying early, do they? As long as I pay before the due date to avoid interest, I'm complying with the cardholder agreement (or loan terms, in the mortgage instance, or policy terms, with respect to car insurance).
As GaryV suggests, I keep the e-mail notifying me of an e-bill marked as unread until I've scheduled the payment. Sometimes part of the reason for delaying is because I know which paycheck will be applied to certain bills and I like to wait until after that paycheck is deposited just as an extra precaution against my making a mistake when I set the payment date.
Quote from: GaryV on September 28, 2021, 11:39:07 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 28, 2021, 10:50:41 AM
Now, however, I find it more difficult to keep track of what has been paid and what hasn't, because there isn't the reminder of an unpaid bill in my incoming-mail slot on my desk.
Don't delete the email notifying you about a payment due until after you've scheduled the payment.
All my bills are paid on three days during the month. Bills paid by credit card are paid the day after the closing date for my billing cycle (maximizing the grace period to pay off the bill). Bills paid by a debit from my checking account are paid on the day immediately following one of my two paycheck direct deposits, thus avoiding an accidental overdraft.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 27, 2021, 04:09:01 PM
So my question was; are we getting to a point where owning a smartphone is going to become a requirement to participate in society?
it does seem that way, doesn't it?
but this doesn't take into account that a lot of people live or work in areas where there's no coverage. for example, where i live, there's 'spotty' 4g -- meaning it works in one part of my yard, but not others. go 2 houses up the street and its gone. there is a pretty big concert venue/bar/restaurant near me (perhaps you've heard of 'the mishawaka'? that has zero coverage, and no wi-fi. imagine trying to get an uber or whatever from there. when i leave my house, there's about 15 miles of zero coverage, then, when i exit the canyon, the phone will go nuts with its honking/tooting/whistling/what-have-you as it 'catches up'.
i am not a truck driver, but it seems a lot of areas truck drivers go through would have no coverage.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 28, 2021, 10:50:41 AMQuote from: 1 on September 28, 2021, 08:47:38 AMQuote from: SectorZ on September 28, 2021, 08:45:45 AMQuote from: 1 on September 28, 2021, 08:15:42 AMI've never understood the point of having a credit card if you have a positive amount of money. Why not just take it out of what you have and avoid paying interest?
- Faster to use
- Can use any self-serve cashier station, many do not accept cash
- Can keep track of finances much easier
- Receive points for any manner of things based on the type of credit card
- Build credit. Part of your credit score is average age of credit account, and having one that is 24 years old and counting is helpful for my score
- Avoid a huge loss of cash if you get robbed, lose your wallet, etc
Some of those can just as easily be done with a debit card.
As mentioned above, some credit cards offer various rewards perks like cash back, airline miles, and the like. One other big benefit is that if you have to dispute a transaction (because it was fraudulent, because the amount was wrong, because you told them to cancel a subscription and they kept charging), you are not actually out any money while the disposition of the case is investigated, because you can just not pay. With a debit card, the amount is removed from your bank account at the time of the charge, and only when the case is decided in your favor is the money refunded to your account.
This has never been a big enough deterrent to using a debit card to me, but it is for some people.
I am one of those people--I don't feel safe about carrying a pipeline to my bank account in my wallet. I also ignore emails from toll road authorities and the like urging me to add my bank account information "so [you] don't have to worry about your credit card expiring."
With the credit card I use the most heavily for transactions, there isn't interest on charges less than one billing cycle old, though there are finance charges on cash withdrawals.
It can also be cheaper to pay with a credit card than with cash when travelling outside the dollar zone, since foreign-currency transactions are billed to your account at the interbank rate, which is typically more favorable than the spread you get from a currency exchange.
All of this said, it does pay to study the terms and conditions carefully to ensure you are availing yourself of all the protection that our (lax) consumer-finance laws give you. For example, cards that offer rewards often come with fees, so it pays to check that the former will be greater than the latter for your spending patterns. And applying for a new credit card will ding your credit score temporarily since it counts as opening a new line of credit.
I think it's important to point out that this sort of thing didn't start with phones. A hundred years ago, very few people had a car, and now it's similarly ubiquitous. Is it possible to get around without it? Yes. Is it usually easy? No. But people get by.
I will join the others in saying, NEVER give ANYBODY access to your bank account. The legal saying "possession is 9/10th of the law" is a real thing.
With a debit card, when there is a mistake, THEY have your money and you have to get it back. With a credit card, YOU have your money and can simply dispute the charge.
With an automatic bill pay, when there is a mistake, THEY have your money and you have to get it back. With electronic bills that you then pay via your phone or computer, YOU have your money.
The only exception I have ever made to this is my car insurance. My state is really strict about allowing insurance companies to cancel, requiring multiple expensive certified letters and such, just for a non-payment. Thus my insurance company (which is one of the big ones) gives me a whopping 15% discount for allowing them to auto draft my checking account. That is worth it.
As to foreign transactions, the best thing to do is to simply call the card issuer. The policies differ, but if it is important to you, you can find a card that does not charge for this fee. Same thing goes for cell phone roaming deals as well.
I will admit that most of my travels in the last 10 or so years have been in the 3rd world, where I have business interests, but the US$ operates as a parallel currency, if not a preferred one. You can just find an ATM and take out cash, often the same machine will dispense both, and sometimes Euros as well, and go with that. I go to Nicaragua at least twice a year, and the government mandates that everybody gets a raise of about 5% every 6 months, which, of course, just devalues the currency, so everybody who is trying to save turns it into either US$ or Mexican pesos and keeps it hidden. No one uses banks for savings.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on September 28, 2021, 08:26:45 AM
I never really used the credit card points thing myself. I tried it a couple times but I would sometimes forget to pay everything off before the interest hit. That was enough to dissuade me from the practice. My wife is big on paying on credit card and paying them off. She has to constantly monitor the activity of those cards which seems like too much work versus accumulating maybe $100-$200 dollars in rewards annually.
You can use debit card with at least some of the same features as credit card. Just remember to lock overdraft at the bank.
I, for one, didn't pay anything other than foreign transaction fee within past decade or more (and maybe a total of $5 in fees and interest before that). Some free stuff via points is nice, but I can live without it. Monitoring things is pretty easy these days - I get a text for any transaction over $20. Printout of all the expenses at the end of the month helps with budgeting.
However, these are all small things, shared by debit and credit cards.
Big thing is that credit card company offer a lot of protection. You can basically tell them to handle any problem you got, and they will take care of it. Credit card companies have all the leverage on vendors they may want, while you would likely have hard time dealing with same issues.
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 28, 2021, 11:22:13 AM
Pennies are worthless, so they need to go and cash transactions can be rounded to the nearest nickel.
Nope. Unless you round down (in my favor) every time, I want no part of that. I do not want to give anyone one cent (literally) of my money that they are not entitled to. I don't care if it averages out in my favor. It's the principle of the thing.
If a bag of potato chips costs me 99 cents at the grocery store, the grocery store should get 99 cents of my money. Not $1.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2021, 02:50:58 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 28, 2021, 11:22:13 AM
Pennies are worthless, so they need to go and cash transactions can be rounded to the nearest nickel.
Nope. Unless you round down (in my favor) every time, I want no part of that. I do not want to give anyone one cent (literally) of my money that they are not entitled to. I don't care if it averages out in my favor. It's the principle of the thing.
If a bag of potato chips costs me 99 cents at the grocery store, the grocery store should get 99 cents of my money. Not $1.
It wouldn't make any difference if they just marked the price as $1. That's much smaller than even a standard price increase.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2021, 02:50:58 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 28, 2021, 11:22:13 AM
Pennies are worthless, so they need to go and cash transactions can be rounded to the nearest nickel.
Nope. Unless you round down (in my favor) every time, I want no part of that. I do not want to give anyone one cent (literally) of my money that they are not entitled to. I don't care if it averages out in my favor. It's the principle of the thing.
If a bag of potato chips costs me 99 cents at the grocery store, the grocery store should get 99 cents of my money. Not $1.
They will happily round that down to $1.05 off a $1.09 bag for you personally.
Quote from: webny99 on September 28, 2021, 02:57:48 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2021, 02:50:58 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 28, 2021, 11:22:13 AM
Pennies are worthless, so they need to go and cash transactions can be rounded to the nearest nickel.
Nope. Unless you round down (in my favor) every time, I want no part of that. I do not want to give anyone one cent (literally) of my money that they are not entitled to. I don't care if it averages out in my favor. It's the principle of the thing.
If a bag of potato chips costs me 99 cents at the grocery store, the grocery store should get 99 cents of my money. Not $1.
It wouldn't make any difference if they just marked the price as $1. That's much smaller than even a standard price increase.
What can make thins more involved is a variety of sales tax laws and rates.
Chips may be exempt from tax in NY, but a 99c bottle of coke actually costs 0.99+0.08 tax + 0.05 deposit = $1.12 - and it is only $1.11 across the river from me as the tax is a bit lower there.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 28, 2021, 02:50:58 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 28, 2021, 11:22:13 AM
Pennies are worthless, so they need to go and cash transactions can be rounded to the nearest nickel.
Nope. Unless you round down (in my favor) every time, I want no part of that. I do not want to give anyone one cent (literally) of my money that they are not entitled to. I don't care if it averages out in my favor. It's the principle of the thing.
If a bag of potato chips costs me 99 cents at the grocery store, the grocery store should get 99 cents of my money. Not $1.
I imagine prices would be set so that when tax (if applicable) is added, it comes out on the nose. Instead of rounding up from $0.98 to $1.00, they'll just add 2 cents to the price and you'll never know the difference.
FYI: On anything that has sales tax, you're been paying rounded up prices your entire life.
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 28, 2021, 03:07:52 PM
FYI: On anything that has sales tax, you're been paying rounded up prices your entire life.
It rounds correctly in Massachusetts, and I
believe down on a tie*, although I'm not entirely sure.
*Dollar Tree. 6.25% state tax and 0.75% local tax that I thought was statewide but apparently isn't. One item is $1.06; two are $2.12. The only way this can happen is rounding down.
Quote from: 1 on September 28, 2021, 03:23:43 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 28, 2021, 03:07:52 PM
FYI: On anything that has sales tax, you're been paying rounded up prices your entire life.
It rounds correctly in Massachusetts, and I believe down on a tie*, although I'm not entirely sure.
*Dollar Tree. 6.25% state tax and 0.75% local tax that I thought was statewide but apparently isn't. One item is $1.06; two are $2.12. The only way this can happen is rounding down.
The 0.75% tax is for meals tax, not sales tax, and it is a local option for cities and towns to add since it goes to them, not the state.
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 28, 2021, 03:07:52 PM
FYI: On anything that has sales tax, you're been paying rounded up prices your entire life.
Cash registers are generally programmed to calculate the sales tax, then round up or down as it would occur in normal mathematics. This is really, really simple to calculate on your own.
Chances are, if you look in the taxation division website for your state, you'll find a tax calculation schedule and will see what the sales tax breakdown would be. You'll notice it's just conventional rounding, not up-rounding.
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 28, 2021, 03:07:52 PM
I imagine prices would be set so that when tax (if applicable) is added, it comes out on the nose. Instead of rounding up from $0.98 to $1.00, they'll just add 2 cents to the price and you'll never know the difference.
This happens locally with the two community newspapers. One has a cover price of 50 cents, the other 75 cents. When they're purchased in a store, you pay the cover price, not 53 cents for the 50-cent paper and 79 cents for the 75-cent paper. The receipt even breaks it down.
Quote from: kalvado on September 28, 2021, 03:01:36 PM
What can make thins more involved is a variety of sales tax laws and rates.
Chips may be exempt from tax in NY, but a 99c bottle of coke actually costs 0.99+0.08 tax + 0.05 deposit = $1.12 - and it is only $1.11 across the river from me as the tax is a bit lower there.
I remember New York state having different sales tax rates for different types of items. I made a purchase at the Elmira/Horseheads-area Walmart years ago, and I remember seeing at least two different tax rates listed on my receipt with different items being flagged for the different rates.
In Kentucky, if you buy a Hershey's chocolate candy bar or a Reese's Cup, you'll pay a 6 percent sales tax. But not if you buy a KitKit bar. When I inquired, I was told that the reason is that the KitKat contains crackers (wafers) and thus that makes it a tax-exempt food.
Here's another weird example. Taxes are levied on taxes. Some communities in Kentucky have levied an optional 3 percent restaurant tax that is dedicated for tourism and recreation. This is on top of the 6 percent general sales tax. A $5 Wendy's Biggie Bag should cost you $5.45 out of pocket, right? (Take $5 and add 9 percent to it?) Nope, it's $5.46. Someone is charging tax on the previously-taxed total. I don't know if the city is charging its 3 percent on top of $5.30, or if the state is charging 3 percent on top of $5.15, but someone's getting an extra penny.
It's worth noting that if you pay income taxes, you're already rounding, because the IRS only works in whole dollar increments.
Quote from: vdeane on September 28, 2021, 09:35:15 PM
It's worth noting that if you pay income taxes, you're already rounding, because the IRS only works in whole dollar increments.
truncating, not rounding
Quote from: SSOWorld on September 28, 2021, 10:03:32 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 28, 2021, 09:35:15 PM
It's worth noting that if you pay income taxes, you're already rounding, because the IRS only works in whole dollar increments.
truncating, not rounding
They will probably allow you to get away with that, but according to the 1040 instructions, page 23:
(https://i.imgur.com/UDDQnYB.png)
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 28, 2021, 11:22:13 AM
So don't change the $1 bill. Just stop printing them. The average bill only lasts about 3 years, so in a decade there won't be any left.
The law as written specifically prohibits this so that Crane & Co. can keep selling currency paper. I am not sure how it's worded, but it may require the Fed to continue issuing them. So the bills would just get grosser and more torn up but never get replaced.
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 28, 2021, 11:22:13 AM
Dimes and half dollars are also pretty unnecessary. You can pay exact change for any transaction < $2 with no more than 8 coins (1 dollar + 3 quarters + 4 nickels = $1.95).
If you really want to go all the way with this, $10 and $50 are pretty unnecessary as well. $2, $5, $20 and $100 can cover everything you need.
Coming from someone who worked as basically a glorified bank teller for 6 years, both before and after the casino took the $10s and dimes out of our starting bank...it's fucking miserable not having them.
Quote from: GaryV on September 28, 2021, 11:39:07 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 28, 2021, 10:50:41 AM
Now, however, I find it more difficult to keep track of what has been paid and what hasn't, because there isn't the reminder of an unpaid bill in my incoming-mail slot on my desk.
Don't delete the email notifying you about a payment due until after you've scheduled the payment.
Heh, bold of you to assume I actually delete emails after I read them... (inbox currently: 56 unread, 109 total)
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 29, 2021, 12:59:06 AM
Quote from: cabiness42 on September 28, 2021, 11:22:13 AM
Dimes and half dollars are also pretty unnecessary. You can pay exact change for any transaction < $2 with no more than 8 coins (1 dollar + 3 quarters + 4 nickels = $1.95).
If you really want to go all the way with this, $10 and $50 are pretty unnecessary as well. $2, $5, $20 and $100 can cover everything you need.
Coming from someone who worked as basically a glorified bank teller for 6 years, both before and after the casino took the $10s and dimes out of our starting bank...it's fucking miserable not having them.
I like the 1 2 5 system the euro uses. What cabiness42 suggests is just too inconsistent for my taste.
Get rid of all the cash and tattoo a bar code on everyone already.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 29, 2021, 12:59:06 AMComing from someone who worked as basically a glorified bank teller for 6 years, both before and after the casino took the $10s and dimes out of our starting bank...it's fucking miserable not having them.
Ugh, sorry. I'm sure you dealt with far more shitty customers than you would have at a bank, too.
Quote from: vdeane on September 28, 2021, 09:35:15 PM
It's worth noting that if you pay income taxes, you're already rounding, because the IRS only works in whole dollar increments.
You don't have to round if you don't want to. Most software will do so, but if you're a stickler about getting your 33¢ or the like, you can do so. As CtrlAltDel notes, however, if you round one figure, you must round everything, so on balance it means some of the rounding will favor the IRS and some will favor you, and on balance it'll likely be a wash. I suggest that for most people, the benefit of getting less than 50¢ in your favor due to rounding is not likely worth the additional time it would take to do the math with non-rounded numbers (assuming that anyone who's doing this is not using tax preparation software).
I filed a hand-prepared non-rounded return once, the first tax return I ever filed, when I was due an $11.33 refund on a 1040-EZ. I'd never even remotely consider doing my taxes by hand nowadays.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 29, 2021, 10:00:33 AMI'd never even remotely consider doing my taxes by hand nowadays.
It's horrendous. I was one of the unfortunate few who filed their 2020 taxes before the third stimulus package was passed, which stated that unemployment compensation up to a certain threshold wouldn't be taxable. The IRS automatically sent me a check for the difference. The State of Illinois wanted me to prepare an amended federal return (I didn't have to file it) and then submit a copy of that along with an amended state return in order to get my refund. The amended federal return would basically have to be done by hand. I gave up trying to figure out how to do that.
Quote from: Rothman on September 29, 2021, 09:57:04 AM
Get rid of all the cash and tattoo a bar code on everyone already.
Make people wear some license plates and bill by picture.
This works for AET after all!
It's becoming that way for desktop web services. Google Docs and Gmail are increasingly insisting on getting your phone number (which cannot be a landline) so they can "make sure it's really you". Even if you have a secondary authentication email set up. Even though SMS is pretty easily spoofed.
Facebook asked for users' phone numbers for security purposes, "we promise we won't use it for marketing", and then to everyone's complete surprise, went ahead and used it for advertising. Be careful with your phone number.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 29, 2021, 10:00:33 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 28, 2021, 09:35:15 PM
It's worth noting that if you pay income taxes, you're already rounding, because the IRS only works in whole dollar increments.
You don't have to round if you don't want to. Most software will do so, but if you're a stickler about getting your 33¢ or the like, you can do so. As CtrlAltDel notes, however, if you round one figure, you must round everything, so on balance it means some of the rounding will favor the IRS and some will favor you, and on balance it'll likely be a wash. I suggest that for most people, the benefit of getting less than 50¢ in your favor due to rounding is not likely worth the additional time it would take to do the math with non-rounded numbers (assuming that anyone who's doing this is not using tax preparation software).
I filed a hand-prepared non-rounded return once, the first tax return I ever filed, when I was due an $11.33 refund on a 1040-EZ. I'd never even remotely consider doing my taxes by hand nowadays.
I use free file fillable forms. It's basically like a paper return, but electronic. That system doesn't actually allow decimals to be entered. Additionally, NY actually requires rounding for its own income tax, as the form only accepts full dollar amounts. Sadly, the free webfile system was discontinued and now it is no longer possible to electronically file with NY without using a tax preparer or private tax software, the latter of which is only free for people below a certain income who meet certain criteria; additionally, the enhanced forms aren't compatible with Linux, though I've managed to get a not too old Adobe Reader to run under Wine. Otherwise I'd be stuck handwriting on the regular form, which takes
forever for them to process. I refuse to pay a private individual or corporation just to file a government form.
Quote from: kurumi on September 29, 2021, 11:55:30 AM
It's becoming that way for desktop web services. Google Docs and Gmail are increasingly insisting on getting your phone number (which cannot be a landline) so they can "make sure it's really you". Even if you have a secondary authentication email set up. Even though SMS is pretty easily spoofed.
Facebook asked for users' phone numbers for security purposes, "we promise we won't use it for marketing", and then to everyone's complete surprise, went ahead and used it for advertising. Be careful with your phone number.
To make matters worse, Facebook had a data breach earlier this year, which is where all the spam texts that seem to know your name come from.
Microsoft is pushing SMS authentication as the
only way to sign into a Microsoft account, which is how they want people to sign into their computers with on consumer versions of Windows. They say it's more secure because people don't use complex enough passwords. Apparently they've never heard of SIM-swapping. Tying accounts to a phone like this makes them less secure, not more. Of course, Microsoft's record on security has been absolutely abysmal as of late (I swear Windows 10 has more flaws than pre-SP2 Windows XP did!). It's to the point where I'm not sure why people and businesses aren't trying to jump ship.
Quote from: vdeane on September 29, 2021, 02:42:53 PM
To make matters worse, Facebook had a data breach earlier this year, which is where all the spam texts that seem to know your name come from.
Glad I stayed away from that.
Quote from: Rothman on September 29, 2021, 09:57:04 AM
Get rid of all the cash and tattoo a bar code on everyone already.
I'm "Not Sure" that is a good idea...
Quote from: SectorZ on September 29, 2021, 03:15:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 29, 2021, 09:57:04 AM
Get rid of all the cash and tattoo a bar code on everyone already.
I'm "Not Sure" that is a good idea...
Everyone should watch that movie.
Quote from: Rothman on September 29, 2021, 09:57:04 AM
Get rid of all the cash and tattoo a bar code on everyone already.
It's called Apple Pay.
Quote from: vdeane on September 29, 2021, 02:42:53 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 29, 2021, 10:00:33 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 28, 2021, 09:35:15 PM
It's worth noting that if you pay income taxes, you're already rounding, because the IRS only works in whole dollar increments.
You don't have to round if you don't want to. Most software will do so, but if you're a stickler about getting your 33¢ or the like, you can do so. As CtrlAltDel notes, however, if you round one figure, you must round everything, so on balance it means some of the rounding will favor the IRS and some will favor you, and on balance it'll likely be a wash. I suggest that for most people, the benefit of getting less than 50¢ in your favor due to rounding is not likely worth the additional time it would take to do the math with non-rounded numbers (assuming that anyone who's doing this is not using tax preparation software).
I filed a hand-prepared non-rounded return once, the first tax return I ever filed, when I was due an $11.33 refund on a 1040-EZ. I'd never even remotely consider doing my taxes by hand nowadays.
I use free file fillable forms. It's basically like a paper return, but electronic. That system doesn't actually allow decimals to be entered. Additionally, NY actually requires rounding for its own income tax, as the form only accepts full dollar amounts. Sadly, the free webfile system was discontinued and now it is no longer possible to electronically file with NY without using a tax preparer or private tax software, the latter of which is only free for people below a certain income who meet certain criteria; additionally, the enhanced forms aren't compatible with Linux, though I've managed to get a not too old Adobe Reader to run under Wine. Otherwise I'd be stuck handwriting on the regular form, which takes forever for them to process. I refuse to pay a private individual or corporation just to file a government form.
....
Fair enough as to New York (I haven't had to file a New York return since 2009, and when I did I used Turbo Tax to prepare the non-resident return and then claim a credit from Virginia), but in defense of how I structured my comment, you did say "the IRS" in the post to which I was responding (see boldface above).
Quote from: vdeane on September 29, 2021, 02:42:53 PM
To make matters worse, Facebook had a data breach earlier this year, which is where all the spam texts that seem to know your name come from.
I get those spam texts, and I don't have Facebook. (On the other hand, they call me either Lydia or Clarice, and I am obviously neither.)
Quote from: 1 on September 29, 2021, 04:11:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 29, 2021, 02:42:53 PM
To make matters worse, Facebook had a data breach earlier this year, which is where all the spam texts that seem to know your name come from.
I get those spam texts, and I don't have Facebook. (On the other hand, they call me either Lydia or Clarice, and I am obviously neither.)
This guy looking for you?
(https://static.toiimg.com/thumb/msid-67521581,imgsize-531640,width-800,height-600,resizemode-75/67521581.jpg)
Quote from: vdeane on September 29, 2021, 02:42:53 PM
...additionally, the enhanced forms aren't compatible with Linux, though I've managed to get a not too old Adobe Reader to run under Wine.
Have you tried using them in Okular? Whenever I open an IRS form in Okular, it pops up an error message complaining "This PDF file requires a newer version of Adobe Reader. Press OK to download the latest version or see your system administrator" (which I suspect is encoded in the PDF itself, as I can't see the KDE devs writing an error message like that) and "This document has XFA forms, which are currently unsupported." but if I click OK and "Show Forms" the form boxes appear to open, save, and print just fine.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 29, 2021, 03:26:02 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 29, 2021, 02:42:53 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 29, 2021, 10:00:33 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 28, 2021, 09:35:15 PM
It's worth noting that if you pay income taxes, you're already rounding, because the IRS only works in whole dollar increments.
You don't have to round if you don't want to. Most software will do so, but if you're a stickler about getting your 33¢ or the like, you can do so. As CtrlAltDel notes, however, if you round one figure, you must round everything, so on balance it means some of the rounding will favor the IRS and some will favor you, and on balance it'll likely be a wash. I suggest that for most people, the benefit of getting less than 50¢ in your favor due to rounding is not likely worth the additional time it would take to do the math with non-rounded numbers (assuming that anyone who's doing this is not using tax preparation software).
I filed a hand-prepared non-rounded return once, the first tax return I ever filed, when I was due an $11.33 refund on a 1040-EZ. I'd never even remotely consider doing my taxes by hand nowadays.
I use free file fillable forms. It's basically like a paper return, but electronic. That system doesn't actually allow decimals to be entered. Additionally, NY actually requires rounding for its own income tax, as the form only accepts full dollar amounts. Sadly, the free webfile system was discontinued and now it is no longer possible to electronically file with NY without using a tax preparer or private tax software, the latter of which is only free for people below a certain income who meet certain criteria; additionally, the enhanced forms aren't compatible with Linux, though I've managed to get a not too old Adobe Reader to run under Wine. Otherwise I'd be stuck handwriting on the regular form, which takes forever for them to process. I refuse to pay a private individual or corporation just to file a government form.
....
Fair enough as to New York (I haven't had to file a New York return since 2009, and when I did I used Turbo Tax to prepare the non-resident return and then claim a credit from Virginia), but in defense of how I structured my comment, you did say "the IRS" in the post to which I was responding (see boldface above).
I've never filed federal taxes with anything other than Free File Fillable Forms. It never occurred to me that they might have a quirk beyond IRS requirements, especially as NYS mandates it for everyone.
Quote from: Scott5114 on September 29, 2021, 06:46:40 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 29, 2021, 02:42:53 PM
...additionally, the enhanced forms aren't compatible with Linux, though I've managed to get a not too old Adobe Reader to run under Wine.
Have you tried using them in Okular? Whenever I open an IRS form in Okular, it pops up an error message complaining "This PDF file requires a newer version of Adobe Reader. Press OK to download the latest version or see your system administrator" (which I suspect is encoded in the PDF itself, as I can't see the KDE devs writing an error message like that) and "This document has XFA forms, which are currently unsupported." but if I click OK and "Show Forms" the form boxes appear to open, save, and print just fine.
I'll have to remember to try that at some point. In addition to the form fields, the forms also calculate tax rates and encode the form data into a barcode that's printed on the side for the state to feed into a computer. It's basically a pseudo-e-filing method that requires USPS to transport paper.
Quote from: 1 on September 29, 2021, 04:11:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 29, 2021, 02:42:53 PM
To make matters worse, Facebook had a data breach earlier this year, which is where all the spam texts that seem to know your name come from.
I get those spam texts, and I don't have Facebook. (On the other hand, they call me either Lydia or Clarice, and I am obviously neither.)
Same here, except the ones I periodically get all say "Stephanie." Made me wonder whether someone mistyped a phone number. Or I suppose someone might have tried to make up a fake number and given what turned out to be my number. People often think it's a mistake when I say it because it ends with three of the same digit.
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 30, 2021, 07:40:58 AM
Quote from: 1 on September 29, 2021, 04:11:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 29, 2021, 02:42:53 PM
To make matters worse, Facebook had a data breach earlier this year, which is where all the spam texts that seem to know your name come from.
I get those spam texts, and I don't have Facebook. (On the other hand, they call me either Lydia or Clarice, and I am obviously neither.)
Same here, except the ones I periodically get all say "Stephanie." Made me wonder whether someone mistyped a phone number. Or I suppose someone might have tried to make up a fake number and given what turned out to be my number. People often think it's a mistake when I say it because it ends with three of the same digit.
My spam texts are addressed to "Faviola." My wife is jealous because the ones she gets are to regular-sounding names. And she gets them sent to more than one person. In one day she may get one for "Betty" and one for "Julie."
For some reason, I get a lot of spam emails addressed to "Rebecca." I don't know why that is. I don't have a Rebecca in my family.
Quote from: hbelkins on September 30, 2021, 12:41:45 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 30, 2021, 07:40:58 AM
Quote from: 1 on September 29, 2021, 04:11:51 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 29, 2021, 02:42:53 PM
To make matters worse, Facebook had a data breach earlier this year, which is where all the spam texts that seem to know your name come from.
I get those spam texts, and I don't have Facebook. (On the other hand, they call me either Lydia or Clarice, and I am obviously neither.)
Same here, except the ones I periodically get all say "Stephanie." Made me wonder whether someone mistyped a phone number. Or I suppose someone might have tried to make up a fake number and given what turned out to be my number. People often think it's a mistake when I say it because it ends with three of the same digit.
My spam texts are addressed to "Faviola." My wife is jealous because the ones she gets are to regular-sounding names. And she gets them sent to more than one person. In one day she may get one for "Betty" and one for "Julie."
For some reason, I get a lot of spam emails addressed to "Rebecca." I don't know why that is. I don't have a Rebecca in my family.
Mine all have my actual name, which is fairly creepy. I wonder if they pick names at random or something if they don't have one known. It was the Apple Air Pods raffle scam from "Amazon" back in March and recently it was "AT&T" "freebies".
Mine normally don't even bother with names, instead saying things like "mate", "Dear Winner," and in one case, "Dear First Name Last Name".
Quote from: vdeane on September 29, 2021, 10:03:18 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 29, 2021, 06:46:40 PMHave you tried using them in Okular? Whenever I open an IRS form in Okular, it pops up an error message complaining "This PDF file requires a newer version of Adobe Reader. Press OK to download the latest version or see your system administrator" (which I suspect is encoded in the PDF itself, as I can't see the KDE devs writing an error message like that) and "This document has XFA forms, which are currently unsupported." but if I click OK and "Show Forms" the form boxes appear to open, save, and print just fine.
I'll have to remember to try that at some point. In addition to the form fields, the forms also calculate tax rates and encode the form data into a barcode that's printed on the side for the state to feed into a computer. It's basically a pseudo-e-filing method that requires USPS to transport paper.
This smells like PDF with embedded JavaScript.
FoxIt Reader is available for Linux, so that is what I would try in lieu of Adobe Reader through an emulator. I have basically given up on Adobe products--I tried Reader DC only to discover it took a ton of configuration changes to eliminate ads and performance decayed over time to the extent it would take five or more seconds to open a simple, small PDF after it had been installed for a month. FoxIt has neither of these limitations and has been an entirely capable general-purpose PDF viewer. There isn't really any reason to use Reader/Acrobat anymore now that the key PDF patents have expired.
Quote from: J N Winkler on September 30, 2021, 01:34:17 PM
Quote from: vdeane on September 29, 2021, 10:03:18 PMQuote from: Scott5114 on September 29, 2021, 06:46:40 PMHave you tried using them in Okular? Whenever I open an IRS form in Okular, it pops up an error message complaining "This PDF file requires a newer version of Adobe Reader. Press OK to download the latest version or see your system administrator" (which I suspect is encoded in the PDF itself, as I can't see the KDE devs writing an error message like that) and "This document has XFA forms, which are currently unsupported." but if I click OK and "Show Forms" the form boxes appear to open, save, and print just fine.
I'll have to remember to try that at some point. In addition to the form fields, the forms also calculate tax rates and encode the form data into a barcode that's printed on the side for the state to feed into a computer. It's basically a pseudo-e-filing method that requires USPS to transport paper.
This smells like PDF with embedded JavaScript.
FoxIt Reader is available for Linux, so that is what I would try in lieu of Adobe Reader through an emulator. I have basically given up on Adobe products--I tried Reader DC only to discover it took a ton of configuration changes to eliminate ads and performance decayed over time to the extent it would take five or more seconds to open a simple, small PDF after it had been installed for a month. FoxIt has neither of these limitations and has been an entirely capable general-purpose PDF viewer. There isn't really any reason to use Reader/Acrobat anymore now that the key PDF patents have expired.
I'm not sure about Okular or Foxit, but I know the NYS tax PDFs don't work in Sumatra (which is what I used on my Windows 7 laptop). I suspect they have code to detect what they're opened with and throw the error message if it's anything other than Adobe. For what it's worth, I just use the built-in document reader for most everything. I only use Adobe (at home, anyways) for this.
Did you not see demolition man? Everyone will wear the stupid thing on your wrist and it will be phone, wallet, ID, and the whole shooting match.
Quote from: vdeane on September 30, 2021, 08:58:22 PM
I'm not sure about Okular or Foxit, but I know the NYS tax PDFs don't work in Sumatra (which is what I used on my Windows 7 laptop). I suspect they have code to detect what they're opened with and throw the error message if it's anything other than Adobe. For what it's worth, I just use the built-in document reader for most everything. I only use Adobe (at home, anyways) for this.
There is something about it that definitely means it won't work in just any PDF viewer, and not just because they've coded it to throw errors.
I've noticed that once you've filled the document out, it will open in Ubuntu's default Document Reader without throwing an error, and it will even (somewhat glitchily) let you type in and modify user entry fields. The fields that auto-calculate do not update though, and neither do the barcodes, so if you try to further edit the document like this you will only break it.
Since I don't happen to have an .exe for Adobe Reader lying around though, running such in Wine has not been an option and I've been stuck filling out and printing the form on my work computer.
It does indeed open fine after printing. It's too bad NY no longer has a way that's universally compatible; I don't even remember how I found a working Adobe installer, since the "skinny" one they normally serve won't work unless you actually have a supported OS, and the latest full version won't work either. I've been using version 15.007.20033.2203. Unfortunately it does involve copying the files out right before install finishes (as the installer convinces itself that it failed when it actually worked and will abort itself on ending) and closing an error every few seconds.
It should be illegal for a state to have a regression like NY did. There is no reason why it should be so cumbersome to file taxes in a manner that won't take two months to even acknowledge receipt (as happens with hand-written returns) for people who run Linux.
I get all sorts of spam texts intended for a "Saber". I have never met or known of anybody by that name.
Quote from: vdeane on October 04, 2021, 09:40:57 PM
It does indeed open fine after printing. It's too bad NY no longer has a way that's universally compatible; I don't even remember how I found a working Adobe installer, since the "skinny" one they normally serve won't work unless you actually have a supported OS, and the latest full version won't work either. I've been using version 15.007.20033.2203. Unfortunately it does involve copying the files out right before install finishes (as the installer convinces itself that it failed when it actually worked and will abort itself on ending) and closing an error every few seconds.
It should be illegal for a state to have a regression like NY did. There is no reason why it should be so cumbersome to file taxes in a manner that won't take two months to even acknowledge receipt (as happens with hand-written returns) for people who run Linux.
I don't understand why they wouldn't just do this through an encrypted Web form.
Quote from: vdeane on October 04, 2021, 09:40:57 PM
....
It should be illegal for a state to have a regression like NY did. There is no reason why it should be so cumbersome to file taxes in a manner that won't take two months to even acknowledge receipt (as happens with hand-written returns) for people who run Linux.
Who, exactly, do you contend would have the authority to pass a law making such a thing "illegal" and on what constitutional basis do you propose they do so?
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 05, 2021, 07:45:02 AM
Quote from: vdeane on October 04, 2021, 09:40:57 PM
....
It should be illegal for a state to have a regression like NY did. There is no reason why it should be so cumbersome to file taxes in a manner that won't take two months to even acknowledge receipt (as happens with hand-written returns) for people who run Linux.
Who, exactly, do you contend would have the authority to pass a law making such a thing "illegal" and on what constitutional basis do you propose they do so?
Something anti-trust - government effectively promotes one product over competitors.
Court answer would be "you can still file on paper, so no problem here"
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 05, 2021, 07:45:02 AMQuote from: vdeane on October 04, 2021, 09:40:57 PM
....
It should be illegal for a state to have a regression like NY did. There is no reason why it should be so cumbersome to file taxes in a manner that won't take two months to even acknowledge receipt (as happens with hand-written returns) for people who run Linux.
Who, exactly, do you contend would have the authority to pass a law making such a thing "illegal" and on what constitutional basis do you propose they do so?
Saying that a thing should be illegal is not quite the same as arguing that there is a federal or state constitutional provision that a litigant can use as a club to force reform. It seems to me that tax forms that can be worked with using a PDF reader from only one provider are objectionable on the grounds of undue preference to an individual market participant, even if this is legal under state and federal law.
Quote from: kalvado on October 05, 2021, 09:49:39 AMSomething anti-trust - government effectively promotes one product over competitors.
Court answer would be "you can still file on paper, so no problem here"
I'm not sure that argument would work even under old antitrust jurisprudence, which was focused on the existence of monopolies (not all of which were attacked--for example, NCR had over 90% of the cash register market for decades). Currently the government does nothing under antitrust as long as there is no evidence of movement in consumer prices: Big Tech monopolies escape antitrust action because their products are provided to the public free of charge. State tax forms that can be worked with PDF software only from Adobe would likely survive antitrust review on the basis that (1) it's the state's decision, not Adobe's, to make the forms available in that manner, (2) PDF is a documented standard to which patents no longer apply, and (3) the forms and the software are made available to users at no charge.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 05, 2021, 10:00:29 AM
Quote from: kalvado on October 05, 2021, 09:49:39 AMSomething anti-trust - government effectively promotes one product over competitors.
Court answer would be "you can still file on paper, so no problem here"
I'm not sure that argument would work even under old antitrust jurisprudence, which was focused on the existence of monopolies (not all of which were attacked--for example, NCR had over 90% of the cash register market for decades). Currently the government does nothing under antitrust as long as there is no evidence of movement in consumer prices: Big Tech monopolies escape antitrust action because their products are provided to the public free of charge. On this basis, state tax forms that can be worked with PDF software only from Adobe would likely survive antitrust review on the basis that (1) it's the state's decision, not Adobe's, to make the forms available on that basis, (2) PDF is a documented standard to which patents no longer apply, and (3) the forms and the software are made available to users at no charge.
an underlying problem is that this involves a paid operating system - free alternative is not included.
Would be nice of state to do a bit of a testing and post a list of compatible pdf software beyond acrbat itself. but that implies too much of a customer service type of thing.
Quote from: kalvado on October 05, 2021, 10:29:53 AMan underlying problem is that this involves a paid operating system - free alternative is not included.
Would be nice of state to do a bit of a testing and post a list of compatible pdf software beyond acrbat itself. but that implies too much of a customer service type of thing.
Yes, there are definitely equity concerns. I'd incline toward the solution Scott5411 suggests: put the forms on the Web (to which indigents and the digitally underserved should have free access through public libraries and the like) in such a manner that taxpayers can use them without being tied to a particular platform and also receive copies for their records in a portable format.
A form on the web is what NY used to do. It was basically the current "enhanced" PDF, but online and accessible to anyone. At the end you could even generate a regular PDF for your records. Then NY joined Free File Alliance (which is basically a dog and pony show where the tax software companies provide free software to people with lower income levels and extremely simple returns, but the products are deliberately designed to "upgrade" as many people to paid software as possible), and the online system went bye bye because it's too much like tax software (unlike the federal Free File Fillable Forms, NY's past and current systems not only do math, they look up your tax rate). I complained and they might come up with some system in the future, but we'll see. Even the note about not supporting Linux is recent.
Quote from: kalvado on October 05, 2021, 10:29:53 AM
an underlying problem is that this involves a paid operating system - free alternative is not included.
Indeed–the Adobe software might be free, but the fact that it only runs on commercial platforms sold by Microsoft and Apple is tantamount to requiring a purchase from one of those two companies. There is also the matter of people who do all of their computing by smartphone these days–do the Android and iOS versions of Adobe Reader support these forms?
A PDF with code inside has to be the worst solution to the problem available, as it both causes dependency on commercial software and, I would imagine judging from past experience with PDF forms, offers a terrible user-interface experience. The best solution would be a Web form, but if for some reason that is seen as undesirable for security reasons or something, another good solution would be an app based on the Electron toolkit, which is basically an application in a Web browser masquerading as a desktop or mobile application, and thus is trivial to port to both mobile and desktop OSes. (Discord, Skype, WhatsApp, and Slack are examples of programs built with the Electron toolkit.)
Quote from: vdeane on October 05, 2021, 02:42:55 PM
A form on the web is what NY used to do. It was basically the current "enhanced" PDF, but online and accessible to anyone. At the end you could even generate a regular PDF for your records. Then NY joined Free File Alliance (which is basically a dog and pony show where the tax software companies provide free software to people with lower income levels and extremely simple returns, but the products are deliberately designed to "upgrade" as many people to paid software as possible), and the online system went bye bye because it's too much like tax software (unlike the federal Free File Fillable Forms, NY's past and current systems not only do math, they look up your tax rate). I complained and they might come up with some system in the future, but we'll see. Even the note about not supporting Linux is recent.
Massachusetts had a similar way to file your state income taxes with the state directly and pulled the same stunt NY did with the free file alliance stuff. Instead of a PDF though it was a system similar to TurboTax and TaxAct, just without things to help you along the way in terms of advice.
To the original question: I suppose at the current rate, smartphone ownership will be a requirement for a lot of things. One consideration is whether those things are wants vs. needs. Right now I'm still one of the holdouts, not because of any stubborn "back when I was a kid" attitude, but because the added expense isn't justified. (Convenience should count for something, but I probably would take an additional step backward on that point trying to figure out how to run the damn app.) Right now I've got other options and I have no problem using them. Restaurant requires me to have its app or at least texting ability to know when I can enter and be seated -- they can't bother to call my bare-bones cellphone? Carry-out place requires me to place my order through an app? No thanks, I'll eat elsewhere. So glad you're doing so well these days that you can turn customers away.
And having to clutter up a phone having to download every company's individual damn "app" is ridiculous. That's like having to install a separate instance of Office every time I want to create a document.
AND while I'm ranting, I'm tired of the default excuse that a company is "going paperless for the contactless safety of our employees and customers/guests." The current one making my blood boil is with my tickets for this season's orchestra concerts. No more paper tickets; it's all digital (or obtain printed barcode tickets myself) to be contactless. Well, it was already contactless before -- I held out the tickets and the usher scanned the bar codes with his/her handheld scanner gun toy. Which they will still have to do, except they will scan your phone display. If this is about cutting your costs by not having to print and mail tickets, fricking own it and say so. Stop giving us the automatic "COVID" excuse, the way we've been getting the automatic "9/11" and "homeland security" excuses for the past 20 years.
Now get off my lawn!
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 05, 2021, 05:47:03 PM
To the original question: I suppose at the current rate, smartphone ownership will be a requirement for a lot of things. One consideration is whether those things are wants vs. needs. Right now I'm still one of the holdouts, not because of any stubborn "back when I was a kid" attitude, but because the added expense isn't justified. (Convenience should count for something, but I probably would take an additional step backward on that point trying to figure out how to run the damn app.) Right now I've got other options and I have no problem using them. Restaurant requires me to have its app or at least texting ability to know when I can enter and be seated -- they can't bother to call my bare-bones cellphone? Carry-out place requires me to place my order through an app? No thanks, I'll eat elsewhere. So glad you're doing so well these days that you can turn customers away.
And having to clutter up a phone having to download every company's individual damn "app" is ridiculous. That's like having to install a separate instance of Office every time I want to create a document.
AND while I'm ranting, I'm tired of the default excuse that a company is "going paperless for the contactless safety of our employees and customers/guests." The current one making my blood boil is with my tickets for this season's orchestra concerts. No more paper tickets; it's all digital (or obtain printed barcode tickets myself) to be contactless. Well, it was already contactless before -- I held out the tickets and the usher scanned the bar codes with his/her handheld scanner gun toy. Which they will still have to do, except they will scan your phone display. If this is about cutting your costs by not having to print and mail tickets, fricking own it and say so. Stop giving us the automatic "COVID" excuse, the way we've been getting the automatic "9/11" and "homeland security" excuses for the past 20 years.
Now get off my lawn!
I don't know that you have to have every company's app on your phone. Just looking at mine right now:
Airbnb - Could just book on my computer
Amazon - Can purchase on my computer
American Airlines - Could print off boarding passes at home
Arryved (a tab paying app that my local brewery used) - Could just pay at the counter
Blackjack Pizza - Could just order on my computer
Booking.com - Could just print off itineraries
Chase - Can pay credit card on my computer
Citi - Can pay credit card on my computer
Domino's - Could just order on my computer
ESPN - Can check scores on a computer
Frontier - Could print off boarding passes at home
...
you get the point.
I don't think there is a single app on my phone that I need to have to use the service or company that it applies to, other than Uber/Lyft.
Chris
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 05, 2021, 05:47:03 PM
AND while I'm ranting, I'm tired of the default excuse that a company is "going paperless for the contactless safety of our employees and customers/guests." The current one making my blood boil is with my tickets for this season's orchestra concerts. No more paper tickets; it's all digital (or obtain printed barcode tickets myself) to be contactless. Well, it was already contactless before -- I held out the tickets and the usher scanned the bar codes with his/her handheld scanner gun toy. Which they will still have to do, except they will scan your phone display. If this is about cutting your costs by not having to print and mail tickets, fricking own it and say so. Stop giving us the automatic "COVID" excuse, the way we've been getting the automatic "9/11" and "homeland security" excuses for the past 20 years.
Especially since surface transmission of COVID was debunked around a year ago. Any place still doing stuff like that is either obscuring another reason or implementing security theater.
The release notes for Firefox 93.0 (https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/93.0/releasenotes/), which came out a few hours ago, say:
QuoteFirefox PDF viewer now supports filling more forms (XFA-based forms, used by multiple governments and banks).
It seems that Chrome has added support in recent months for XFA (XML Forms Architecture) in PDF.
One vendor has a page listing XFA readers (https://pdf.wondershare.com/top-pdf-software/xfa-reader.html), including one for Linux.
↑ That's good to know, thanks! (Although it does mean you have to use the Firefox PDF viewer, which feels icky enough that I've instructed my Firefox to open PDFs in Okular by default.)
Quote from: wanderer2575 on October 05, 2021, 05:47:03 PMAND while I'm ranting, I'm tired of the default excuse that a company is "going paperless for the contactless safety of our employees and customers/guests." The current one making my blood boil is with my tickets for this season's orchestra concerts. No more paper tickets; it's all digital (or obtain printed barcode tickets myself) to be contactless. Well, it was already contactless before -- I held out the tickets and the usher scanned the bar codes with his/her handheld scanner gun toy. Which they will still have to do, except they will scan your phone display. If this is about cutting your costs by not having to print and mail tickets, fricking own it and say so. Stop giving us the automatic "COVID" excuse, the way we've been getting the automatic "9/11" and "homeland security" excuses for the past 20 years.
Oh, with pro sports, it's worse than merely cutting costs, it's the respective league and StubHub hopping into bed with each other so they can have a monopoly over the resale market.
Quote from: GenExpwy on October 06, 2021, 02:45:33 AM
The release notes for Firefox 93.0 (https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/93.0/releasenotes/), which came out a few hours ago, say:
QuoteFirefox PDF viewer now supports filling more forms (XFA-based forms, used by multiple governments and banks).
It seems that Chrome has added support in recent months for XFA (XML Forms Architecture) in PDF.
One vendor has a page listing XFA readers (https://pdf.wondershare.com/top-pdf-software/xfa-reader.html), including one for Linux.
Alas, despite supporing XFA, neigher Chrome nor Firefox work with the NYS tax form (https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/current_forms/it/it201_fill_in_2d.pdf). I don't think they used to have the error plastered on top of obvious form fields, though, so that's a change. That said, the form fields don't work as they should, so there's more to the puzzle to making everything functional, even if the error weren't there.
I've had a Android Smartphone since it was a personal graduation present back in December, 2010. And yes, Smartphones have come a long way since then.
One of the big reasons why a smartphone may become a de facto standard is because of security. There are too many people who think that Dogwood53! is a nice, secure password (minimum 10 characters, includes an upper and lowercase character, a number, and a special character), use it on all of their accounts, and never EVER changed it from 2005 despite the numerous password breaches. (But hey, the Nile is a river in Egypt). Yet, using a good password manager such as LastPass (https://markholtz.info/lastpass) or KeePass (https://markholtz.info/keepass) is "too complicated".
Because there are three factos for good authentication (something you know, something you have, something you are), this is why there is the need for Two Factor Authentication (2FA). While sending a one time code via SMS is considered 2FA, it isn't the most secure methods. Many sites often use Google Authenticator codes as 2FA (which you can store on a app like Authy (https://markholtz.info/authy) which is also available as a desktop app), some companies use Duo to log into their servers. And some Duo configurations have you either supplying a passcode or authenticate through the app... no callback allowed.
Quote from: 1 on September 28, 2021, 08:15:42 AMI've never understood the point of having a credit card if you have a positive amount of money. Why not just take it out of what you have and avoid paying interest?
A couple of reasons. For starters, if you want to book a hotel room, rent a vehicle, or take a cruise, this helps ensure your reservation without locking up money. If you do a hotel confirmation with a debit card, the hotel does a pre-authorization which effective makes that amount unavailable until the hold is taken off.
In addition, I have all of my recurring billings except my mortgage on my credit card. This includes toll payments, electric, water/garbage/sewer, gas, and Internet. This allows me to have one bill to pay off at the end of the month instead of several and avoids late payments.
I also use a rewards card because I can get money or rewards back such as Amazon gift cards. Of course, I pay off the card at the end of each month.
You know what is the most insecure financial instrument? Checks. At the bottom of each check is the routing code and account number for anyone to see.
Quote from: ZLoth on October 10, 2021, 02:03:52 PM
I've had a Android Smartphone since it was a personal graduation present back in December, 2010. And yes, Smartphones have come a long way since then.
One of the big reasons why a smartphone may become a de facto standard is because of security. There are too many people who think that Dogwood53! is a nice, secure password (minimum 10 characters, includes an upper and lowercase character, a number, and a special character), use it on all of their accounts, and never EVER changed it from 2005 despite the numerous password breaches. (But hey, the Nile is a river in Egypt). Yet, using a good password manager such as LastPass (https://markholtz.info/lastpass) or KeePass (https://markholtz.info/keepass) is "too complicated".
Because there are three factos for good authentication (something you know, something you have, something you are), this is why there is the need for Two Factor Authentication (2FA). While sending a one time code via SMS is considered 2FA, it isn't the most secure methods. Many sites often use Google Authenticator codes as 2FA (which you can store on a app like Authy (https://markholtz.info/authy) which is also available as a desktop app), some companies use Duo to log into their servers. And some Duo configurations have you either supplying a passcode or authenticate through the app... no callback allowed.
The problem here is that too many websites are getting self-important about how stringent their security is. Like, having 2FA on a bank website makes sense. But I shouldn't have to have 2FA and a 46-character password, 3 characters of which must be upper case, 2 lower case, 4 that are neither upper or lowercase (but not punctuation or numbers), 1 number, one punctuation mark that
isn't an asterisk, one character that is only part of the Norwegian and/or Icelandic alphabet, and one emoji, to sign into the account where I buy cat litter. What's a hacker going to do, change my subscription from the pink kind to the blue kind? Oh nooooooo.
SMS-based 2FA is kind of irritating anyway since most of the time I'm on the computer because I don't
want to be on my phone, which I usually leave in the other room if I don't need it for anything. So I have to get up and go to the other side of the house to get it to enter some dumb 6-digit number in. At least if it sends to my email I can check it without getting up.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 10, 2021, 02:15:35 PMBut I shouldn't have to have 2FA and a 46-character password, 3 characters of which must be upper case, 2 lower case, 4 that are neither upper or lowercase (but not punctuation or numbers), 1 number, one punctuation mark that isn't an asterisk, one character that is only part of the Norwegian and/or Icelandic alphabet, and one emoji, to sign into the account where I buy cat litter. What's a hacker going to do, change my subscription from the pink kind to the blue kind? Oh nooooooo.
As flippant as you are trying to be, that hacker can change the delivery address from your address to a another address that they can pick up from, increase the quantity of both the blue and pink kitty litter, add in additional expensive items, and resell the stuff on Craigslist. And, your address and phone number can be used for false applications. To quote a line from the move
The Incredibles:"Your identity is your most valuable possession. Protect it."
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 10, 2021, 02:15:35 PMSMS-based 2FA is kind of irritating anyway since most of the time I'm on the computer because I don't want to be on my phone, which I usually leave in the other room if I don't need it for anything. So I have to get up and go to the other side of the house to get it to enter some dumb 6-digit number in. At least if it sends to my email I can check it without getting up.
According to this article (https://markholtz.info/2g6), about 62.5% of United States households are only using mobile phones. And, yes, you can view text messages through your computer's web browser. That "dumb 6-digit number" can prevent impersonators from accessing personal identifiable information which can be utilized to create false credit cards, mortgages, and so on. That ounce of prevention is better than years of cleanup.
Quote from: ZLoth on October 10, 2021, 02:54:04 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 10, 2021, 02:15:35 PMBut I shouldn't have to have 2FA and a 46-character password, 3 characters of which must be upper case, 2 lower case, 4 that are neither upper or lowercase (but not punctuation or numbers), 1 number, one punctuation mark that isn't an asterisk, one character that is only part of the Norwegian and/or Icelandic alphabet, and one emoji, to sign into the account where I buy cat litter. What's a hacker going to do, change my subscription from the pink kind to the blue kind? Oh nooooooo.
As flippant as you are trying to be, that hacker can change the delivery address from your address to a another address that they can pick up from, increase the quantity of both the blue and pink kitty litter, add in additional expensive items, and resell the stuff on Craigslist. And, your address and phone number can be used for false applications. To quote a line from the move The Incredibles:"Your identity is your most valuable possession. Protect it."
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 10, 2021, 02:15:35 PMSMS-based 2FA is kind of irritating anyway since most of the time I'm on the computer because I don't want to be on my phone, which I usually leave in the other room if I don't need it for anything. So I have to get up and go to the other side of the house to get it to enter some dumb 6-digit number in. At least if it sends to my email I can check it without getting up.
According to this article (https://markholtz.info/2g6), about 62.5% of United States households are only using mobile phones. And, yes, you can view text messages through your computer's web browser. That "dumb 6-digit number" can prevent impersonators from accessing personal identifiable information which can be utilized to create false credit cards, mortgages, and so on. That ounce of prevention is better than years of cleanup.
But here's the thing...I
don't care.
The odds of someone hacking into that account and doing that, and the level of harm it would do me, are low enough that it
doesn't justify the amount of added effort 2FA adds.
If someone did that, I would notice the increase in charge on my bank statement, go back and correct it, and have the bank reimburse me/chargeback the fraud. It would be pretty clear-cut that it was fraud, since it was shipped to an address that wasn't mine. The only thing I would really be out at the end of the day is a few hours worth of shoe leather dealing with the bank.
And that presupposes the place has my credit card saved. That's usual on things like Amazon or subscription services, but it's not a given anywhere else. And I generally don't save my credit card on sites where I just sporadically buy things here or there. On my own e-commerce website I don't allow people to save card information because I don't want stewardship over that data.
I own an LLC so my address and phone number are public record that the Secretary of State's website will cheerfully hand out to anyone that asks. I own a house so they can get it from the county assessor's site too. I can be as paranoid about that as I want and it won't make a damn bit of difference, it's already out there.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 10, 2021, 03:09:04 PM
But here's the thing...I don't care.
The odds of someone hacking into that account and doing that, and the level of harm it would do me, are low enough that it doesn't justify the amount of added effort 2FA adds.
Actions have consequences. Sometimes, those consequences are unplanned, unintended, and unexpected. And, unfortunately the United States hasn't done too well in the security aspect, favoring convenience over security.
I think high-friction authentication methods should be restricted to sites that can commit money. There also needs to be a general recognition that (1) any form of authentication will create a perverse incentive to short-circuit the security (e.g., by using the same password for multiple sites) if it is inconvenient, and (2) authentication itself is pointless if end-to-end cryptographic security is not provided.
As an example, many state DOTs require you to create an account and log in to download plans. I've never understood why they don't simply make them available for anonymous download, as many of their peers do. Some of them don't even have secure login mechanisms; HSTS is still not universally implemented, and I've even run into sites where the login information is sent in clear over plain HTTP (which even a layperson like me knows is a huge no-no).
Heck, mob-rule used to send your password over an HTTP GET request, meaning it was plainly visible in the URL of the page you were visiting.
But it never mattered because what's someone going to do with that password, log in and mess with my county map? Oh no.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 10, 2021, 03:09:04 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on October 10, 2021, 02:54:04 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 10, 2021, 02:15:35 PMBut I shouldn't have to have 2FA and a 46-character password, 3 characters of which must be upper case, 2 lower case, 4 that are neither upper or lowercase (but not punctuation or numbers), 1 number, one punctuation mark that isn't an asterisk, one character that is only part of the Norwegian and/or Icelandic alphabet, and one emoji, to sign into the account where I buy cat litter. What's a hacker going to do, change my subscription from the pink kind to the blue kind? Oh nooooooo.
As flippant as you are trying to be, that hacker can change the delivery address from your address to a another address that they can pick up from, increase the quantity of both the blue and pink kitty litter, add in additional expensive items, and resell the stuff on Craigslist. And, your address and phone number can be used for false applications. To quote a line from the move The Incredibles:"Your identity is your most valuable possession. Protect it."
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 10, 2021, 02:15:35 PMSMS-based 2FA is kind of irritating anyway since most of the time I'm on the computer because I don't want to be on my phone, which I usually leave in the other room if I don't need it for anything. So I have to get up and go to the other side of the house to get it to enter some dumb 6-digit number in. At least if it sends to my email I can check it without getting up.
According to this article (https://markholtz.info/2g6), about 62.5% of United States households are only using mobile phones. And, yes, you can view text messages through your computer's web browser. That "dumb 6-digit number" can prevent impersonators from accessing personal identifiable information which can be utilized to create false credit cards, mortgages, and so on. That ounce of prevention is better than years of cleanup.
But here's the thing...I don't care.
The odds of someone hacking into that account and doing that, and the level of harm it would do me, are low enough that it doesn't justify the amount of added effort 2FA adds.
If someone did that, I would notice the increase in charge on my bank statement, go back and correct it, and have the bank reimburse me/chargeback the fraud. It would be pretty clear-cut that it was fraud, since it was shipped to an address that wasn't mine. The only thing I would really be out at the end of the day is a few hours worth of shoe leather dealing with the bank.
And that presupposes the place has my credit card saved. That's usual on things like Amazon or subscription services, but it's not a given anywhere else. And I generally don't save my credit card on sites where I just sporadically buy things here or there. On my own e-commerce website I don't allow people to save card information because I don't want stewardship over that data.
I own an LLC so my address and phone number are public record that the Secretary of State's website will cheerfully hand out to anyone that asks. I own a house so they can get it from the county assessor's site too. I can be as paranoid about that as I want and it won't make a damn bit of difference, it's already out there.
However, you're under the impression that a victim is always a victim. You can't just "have" the bank give you your money back. They're going to investigate it first, and may or may not "loan" you the missing funds during that investigation. Anyone can have a payment address and shipping address be different...paying for something then shipping it directly to another recipient as a gift is ultra-common.
So, put yourself in the shoes of an investigator. Everything you described is what many self-scammers do, thinking they can con the system.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 10, 2021, 04:29:53 PM
However, you're under the impression that a victim is always a victim. You can't just "have" the bank give you your money back. They're going to investigate it first, and may or may not "loan" you the missing funds during that investigation. Anyone can have a payment address and shipping address be different...paying for something then shipping it directly to another recipient as a gift is ultra-common.
So, put yourself in the shoes of an investigator. Everything you described is what many self-scammers do, thinking they can con the system.
But, again...
I don't care. I just don't.
Say getting my account at Rita's Online Cat Litter Emporium hacked into and recovering the funds is 100 inconvenience points. Dealing with 2FA to log into my account is, say, 10 inconvenience points. I'm avoiding 100 inconvenience points that I may someday, possibly, potentially accrue in exchange for 100 inconvenience points I will definitely, no doubt accrue after logging into the site 10 times because Rita decides she needs to have her cat litter locked down like Fort Knox. I have decided I can tolerate a level of risk commensurate with having 1FA instead of 2FA.
You could avoid a whole lot of fraud at Walmart too if they asked for two forms of ID to verify you're the valid holder of a credit card. They don't do that. Because it's a pain in the ass to carry two forms of ID, so people would complain, and it would catch a lot of things that are technically fraud that nobody cares about, like someone using their wife's debit card or someone giving someone else their card to go run to the store for them because they can't/don't want to themselves. Again, that introduces a level of risk into the transaction that both the customers and the store has decided is tolerable.
The least risky thing is to calculate to the penny exactly how much money you're going to spend, go to the bank, pull out that amount to the penny, go directly to the store, and spend it. Even then you might get robbed on the way between the bank and the store. So the safest thing to do is stay at home and never spend any money ever. Except...you can't do that.
I'm sorry your bank sucks. Any time I've had a fraud case, my bank has cancelled the transaction and refunded the money. Hell, most of the time they catch it within minutes of it happening and tell
me about it before I have any idea it happened.
One thing for sure - security and importance of information must match. And sometimes overly eager protections and services do more harm than good. But if something is done, it must be usable option, not "lets try and see"
You strongly want to keep my credit card number on file? Sorry for fake charge, so sad, to bad, I specifically tried to avoid letting you keep that.
Bank sending transaction alert 3 days after transaction is cleared? Oh, is that really my bad? If you want to do it, do it well.
Making me change a password every 3 months when I need to login every 2 months? Disallowing browser storage? And gazillion letters and punctuation marks? Fine, high security one you got. I also wrote it into a passwd.txt on a desktop.
It is not only convenience over security, it is also about acute idiocy of those in charge
Given how much people re-use usernames and passwords across the internet, someone who got a mob-rule user's credentials would then try those credentials on other sites - and if one of those matched, said user would have a much bigger problem than a hacker changing their county clinches. Especially if the shared password is with one's email. Once you control someone's email, you basically can gain control of everything else via "forgot password" requests.
Regarding password managers, they've always struck me as having the flaw that someone who gains access to the computer/account would then have access to all one's user accounts online. Especially Chrome's, since it's stored on a Google Account. As such I only use Chrome's saved passwords for less important things like this forum. Really important stuff like banking is all memory. Fortunately consumer-oriented things rarely enforce password changes. For work, given how many accounts we have and how they periodically need to be changed, I ended up devising a scheme and then writing codes in a text file that I can use as a key to remember which account is using which password. Although that did have the beneficial effect that when IT reactivated accounts for everyone on some service that's only used once ever couple years, rather than have to go through the "forgot password" system like everyone else did, I just looked up the code and typed in the old password and had everything work. Of course, there's also the system that just gives you a password of random letters/numbers that cannot be memorized with no way to change it... I'm not sure what they were thinking, but that one is just pasted there in plain text for me to copy/paste, and anyone who broke into my files could do the same thing. Clearly the people who coded that system did not think things through.
Microsoft is currently trying to push using text message codes as the exclusive way to log in to Windows. That strikes me as a really bad idea given threats like SIM swapping.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 10, 2021, 06:32:33 PM
I'm sorry your bank sucks. Any time I've had a fraud case, my bank has cancelled the transaction and refunded the money. Hell, most of the time they catch it within minutes of it happening and tell me about it before I have any idea it happened.
Being I've never had a fraud case with my bank account, I'd say my bank sucks less than yours.
The fact that people are getting into your account seems to say you have some security issues that need to be handled.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 10, 2021, 11:28:15 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 10, 2021, 06:32:33 PM
I'm sorry your bank sucks. Any time I've had a fraud case, my bank has cancelled the transaction and refunded the money. Hell, most of the time they catch it within minutes of it happening and tell me about it before I have any idea it happened.
Being I've never had a fraud case with my bank account, I'd say my bank sucks less than yours.
The fact that people are getting into your account seems to say you have some security issues that need to be handled.
Well, it's not anything foisting 2FA on me would fix; any time it's happened it's been a random attack not linked to any of my existing accounts. The most recent of them was a debit card that was only used online in one place, and that was
with a 2FA account. Otherwise, that card had only been used at Lowe's and a non-recurring charge at the electric company, and the fradulent charge was to Waffle House. The only other one I can remember was a random charge at a gas station in California (I've never been to CA).
The US debit card system is pretty hilariously broken security-wise. Borrow your spouse's card sometime, go around town using it for your usual business, and see how many times you get stopped. Any time you encounter a PIN prompt you can just hit X on the pad and it will bypass the PIN. Nobody checks to see if the name on the card is the name of the person standing there or whether their signature, if they even ask for one, matches against anything.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2021, 12:26:45 AM
The US debit card system is pretty hilariously broken security-wise. Borrow your spouse's card sometime, go around town using it for your usual business, and see how many times you get stopped. Any time you encounter a PIN prompt you can just hit X on the pad and it will bypass the PIN. Nobody checks to see if the name on the card is the name of the person standing there or whether their signature, if they even ask for one, matches against anything.
I know some people write "See ID" on their cards, but back when I worked in fast food I didn't have time for that because I need to get your ass in and out of my drive thru and I don't really care anyway.
I got one reminder from management (suggesting someone complained to management that I didn't check their ID), but otherwise I never heard about it again.
Quote from: vdeane on October 10, 2021, 10:50:05 PM
[some things snipped]
Microsoft is currently trying to push using text message codes as the exclusive way to log in to Windows. That strikes me as a really bad idea given threats like SIM swapping.
i wonder how that's gonna work out for people who live in areas with no cell service?
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2021, 12:26:45 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 10, 2021, 11:28:15 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 10, 2021, 06:32:33 PM
I'm sorry your bank sucks. Any time I've had a fraud case, my bank has cancelled the transaction and refunded the money. Hell, most of the time they catch it within minutes of it happening and tell me about it before I have any idea it happened.
Being I've never had a fraud case with my bank account, I'd say my bank sucks less than yours.
The fact that people are getting into your account seems to say you have some security issues that need to be handled.
Well, it's not anything foisting 2FA on me would fix; any time it's happened it's been a random attack not linked to any of my existing accounts. The most recent of them was a debit card that was only used online in one place, and that was with a 2FA account. Otherwise, that card had only been used at Lowe's and a non-recurring charge at the electric company, and the fradulent charge was to Waffle House. The only other one I can remember was a random charge at a gas station in California (I've never been to CA).
The US debit card system is pretty hilariously broken security-wise. Borrow your spouse's card sometime, go around town using it for your usual business, and see how many times you get stopped. Any time you encounter a PIN prompt you can just hit X on the pad and it will bypass the PIN. Nobody checks to see if the name on the card is the name of the person standing there or whether their signature, if they even ask for one, matches against anything.
I pretty much permanently have one of my wife's cards with me. And I think she has one of mine. We don't give it a second thought...and neither does anyone else.
On occasion, where a restaurant had a credit card terminal at a table, I'll "sign" it with pretty much anything I feel like drawing.
You pretty much have to have one for sports to buy a ticket unless you want to be limited to high school sports. And some high school teams don't take cash at all. That might be the biggest difference during the pandemic.
In 2019, there were many high schools that didn't even take credit cards, at least in my area. Everything was about the "cash" gate, even with $7 admission. You had to have enough cash to get in.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 11, 2021, 01:58:44 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2021, 12:26:45 AM
The US debit card system is pretty hilariously broken security-wise. Borrow your spouse's card sometime, go around town using it for your usual business, and see how many times you get stopped. Any time you encounter a PIN prompt you can just hit X on the pad and it will bypass the PIN. Nobody checks to see if the name on the card is the name of the person standing there or whether their signature, if they even ask for one, matches against anything.
I know some people write "See ID" on their cards, but back when I worked in fast food I didn't have time for that because I need to get your ass in and out of my drive thru and I don't really care anyway.
I got one reminder from management (suggesting someone complained to management that I didn't check their ID), but otherwise I never heard about it again.
I worked at a computer store (Micro Center) one summer when I was in college and they required us to check signatures on cards (one guy was fired for not doing so), and they wouldn't let us accept "See ID." Period. A few customers got belligerent about it; I invariably said, "Hey, I'm just following instructions and I'm not going to risk my job because of how you want to sign your card. I'll be happy to call a manager." Nowadays it'd probably wind up on the news due to a violent, raging customer.
(Before one of the usual suspects says it was a stupid rule, hey, I wasn't a store manager. I just wanted to earn a paycheck.)
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 11, 2021, 08:57:07 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 11, 2021, 01:58:44 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2021, 12:26:45 AM
The US debit card system is pretty hilariously broken security-wise. Borrow your spouse's card sometime, go around town using it for your usual business, and see how many times you get stopped. Any time you encounter a PIN prompt you can just hit X on the pad and it will bypass the PIN. Nobody checks to see if the name on the card is the name of the person standing there or whether their signature, if they even ask for one, matches against anything.
I know some people write "See ID" on their cards, but back when I worked in fast food I didn't have time for that because I need to get your ass in and out of my drive thru and I don't really care anyway.
I got one reminder from management (suggesting someone complained to management that I didn't check their ID), but otherwise I never heard about it again.
I worked at a computer store (Micro Center) one summer when I was in college and they required us to check signatures on cards (one guy was fired for not doing so), and they wouldn't let us accept "See ID." Period. A few customers got belligerent about it; I invariably said, "Hey, I'm just following instructions and I'm not going to risk my job because of how you want to sign your card. I'll be happy to call a manager." Nowadays it'd probably wind up on the news due to a violent, raging customer.
(Before one of the usual suspects says it was a stupid rule, hey, I wasn't a store manager. I just wanted to earn a paycheck.)
Why couldn't you just match the signature to whatever was on their ID then? That would be the original 2FA.
(Admitting I only know that Massachusetts driver's licenses have a signature - for all I know that's a rarity of some sort)
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 11, 2021, 08:57:07 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 11, 2021, 01:58:44 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2021, 12:26:45 AM
The US debit card system is pretty hilariously broken security-wise. Borrow your spouse's card sometime, go around town using it for your usual business, and see how many times you get stopped. Any time you encounter a PIN prompt you can just hit X on the pad and it will bypass the PIN. Nobody checks to see if the name on the card is the name of the person standing there or whether their signature, if they even ask for one, matches against anything.
I know some people write "See ID" on their cards, but back when I worked in fast food I didn't have time for that because I need to get your ass in and out of my drive thru and I don't really care anyway.
I got one reminder from management (suggesting someone complained to management that I didn't check their ID), but otherwise I never heard about it again.
I worked at a computer store (Micro Center) one summer when I was in college and they required us to check signatures on cards (one guy was fired for not doing so), and they wouldn't let us accept "See ID." Period. A few customers got belligerent about it; I invariably said, "Hey, I'm just following instructions and I'm not going to risk my job because of how you want to sign your card. I'll be happy to call a manager." Nowadays it'd probably wind up on the news due to a violent, raging customer.
(Before one of the usual suspects says it was a stupid rule, hey, I wasn't a store manager. I just wanted to earn a paycheck.)
Oh, we had the exact same rule at the casino for people trying to get cash off their card. No, I'm not going to let you get $1,000 in cash off of a card you claim is your wife's (how do I know it's not your sister's or your mom's, or worse, some random other person with the same last name?). No, I'm not going to let you get $1,000 out and then sign "SWAGG" instead of your name. And we wouldn't even accept "See ID" on the back in lieu of a signature, there had to be a signature on the back of the card
and on the signature pad
and they had to match the signature on the ID. I don't have $1,000 to pay back to the casino if this comes back fraudulent, so we're going to play by the rules here. We pretty much told them they can either follow the rules or they'll have to find some other way to get money to gamble with.
Quote from: SectorZ on October 11, 2021, 09:51:05 AM
Why couldn't you just match the signature to whatever was on their ID then? That would be the original 2FA.
Signature on the back of the card signifies that the bearer has agreed to the cardholder agreement and is the authorized user of the card. If it's unsigned or says "SEE ID" I can sign the back of your card and then I'm technically the cardholder. It is pretty dumb, but, according to the documentation we got from Visa, that's how it works.
Quote from: webny99 on September 28, 2021, 08:19:15 AM
Quote from: 1 on September 28, 2021, 08:15:42 AM
I've never understood the point of having a credit card if you have a positive amount of money. Why not just take it out of what you have and avoid paying interest?
It's mainly for:
1) convenience
2) building your credit score, as has been discussed in this thread
Also, most (all?) cards don't accrue interest as long as you pay in full every month.
Yes, and also
3) the dispute resolution system for credit card charge disputes is reasonably quick and inexpensive to use, unlike the courts
Quote from: SectorZ on October 11, 2021, 09:51:05 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 11, 2021, 08:57:07 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 11, 2021, 01:58:44 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2021, 12:26:45 AM
The US debit card system is pretty hilariously broken security-wise. Borrow your spouse's card sometime, go around town using it for your usual business, and see how many times you get stopped. Any time you encounter a PIN prompt you can just hit X on the pad and it will bypass the PIN. Nobody checks to see if the name on the card is the name of the person standing there or whether their signature, if they even ask for one, matches against anything.
I know some people write "See ID" on their cards, but back when I worked in fast food I didn't have time for that because I need to get your ass in and out of my drive thru and I don't really care anyway.
I got one reminder from management (suggesting someone complained to management that I didn't check their ID), but otherwise I never heard about it again.
I worked at a computer store (Micro Center) one summer when I was in college and they required us to check signatures on cards (one guy was fired for not doing so), and they wouldn't let us accept "See ID." Period. A few customers got belligerent about it; I invariably said, "Hey, I'm just following instructions and I'm not going to risk my job because of how you want to sign your card. I'll be happy to call a manager." Nowadays it'd probably wind up on the news due to a violent, raging customer.
(Before one of the usual suspects says it was a stupid rule, hey, I wasn't a store manager. I just wanted to earn a paycheck.)
Why couldn't you just match the signature to whatever was on their ID then? That would be the original 2FA.
(Admitting I only know that Massachusetts driver's licenses have a signature - for all I know that's a rarity of some sort)
Because I would have lost my job. I didn't make the rules.
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 11, 2021, 03:11:26 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on October 11, 2021, 09:51:05 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 11, 2021, 08:57:07 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 11, 2021, 01:58:44 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2021, 12:26:45 AM
The US debit card system is pretty hilariously broken security-wise. Borrow your spouse's card sometime, go around town using it for your usual business, and see how many times you get stopped. Any time you encounter a PIN prompt you can just hit X on the pad and it will bypass the PIN. Nobody checks to see if the name on the card is the name of the person standing there or whether their signature, if they even ask for one, matches against anything.
I know some people write "See ID" on their cards, but back when I worked in fast food I didn't have time for that because I need to get your ass in and out of my drive thru and I don't really care anyway.
I got one reminder from management (suggesting someone complained to management that I didn't check their ID), but otherwise I never heard about it again.
I worked at a computer store (Micro Center) one summer when I was in college and they required us to check signatures on cards (one guy was fired for not doing so), and they wouldn't let us accept "See ID." Period. A few customers got belligerent about it; I invariably said, "Hey, I'm just following instructions and I'm not going to risk my job because of how you want to sign your card. I'll be happy to call a manager." Nowadays it'd probably wind up on the news due to a violent, raging customer.
(Before one of the usual suspects says it was a stupid rule, hey, I wasn't a store manager. I just wanted to earn a paycheck.)
Why couldn't you just match the signature to whatever was on their ID then? That would be the original 2FA.
(Admitting I only know that Massachusetts driver's licenses have a signature - for all I know that's a rarity of some sort)
Because I would have lost my job. I didn't make the rules.
Notwithstanding what Scott5114 said above, does anybody literally ask questions at their job anymore? I questioned a lot of stupid stuff, and usually you're better off if a solution to a dumb problem either 1) saves money/time or 2) makes customers happy.
Quote from: SectorZ on October 11, 2021, 06:41:45 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 11, 2021, 03:11:26 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on October 11, 2021, 09:51:05 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 11, 2021, 08:57:07 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on October 11, 2021, 01:58:44 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2021, 12:26:45 AM
The US debit card system is pretty hilariously broken security-wise. Borrow your spouse's card sometime, go around town using it for your usual business, and see how many times you get stopped. Any time you encounter a PIN prompt you can just hit X on the pad and it will bypass the PIN. Nobody checks to see if the name on the card is the name of the person standing there or whether their signature, if they even ask for one, matches against anything.
I know some people write "See ID" on their cards, but back when I worked in fast food I didn't have time for that because I need to get your ass in and out of my drive thru and I don't really care anyway.
I got one reminder from management (suggesting someone complained to management that I didn't check their ID), but otherwise I never heard about it again.
I worked at a computer store (Micro Center) one summer when I was in college and they required us to check signatures on cards (one guy was fired for not doing so), and they wouldn't let us accept "See ID." Period. A few customers got belligerent about it; I invariably said, "Hey, I'm just following instructions and I'm not going to risk my job because of how you want to sign your card. I'll be happy to call a manager." Nowadays it'd probably wind up on the news due to a violent, raging customer.
(Before one of the usual suspects says it was a stupid rule, hey, I wasn't a store manager. I just wanted to earn a paycheck.)
Why couldn't you just match the signature to whatever was on their ID then? That would be the original 2FA.
(Admitting I only know that Massachusetts driver's licenses have a signature - for all I know that's a rarity of some sort)
Because I would have lost my job. I didn't make the rules.
Notwithstanding what Scott5114 said above, does anybody literally ask questions at their job anymore? I questioned a lot of stupid stuff, and usually you're better off if a solution to a dumb problem either 1) saves money/time or 2) makes customers happy.
It was 1993 and I was 20 years old, I needed the money, and it was a retail job (meaning no job security). So no, I didn't ask questions, and I couldn't have cared less whether someone else thought I "should have" questioned it (and I roll my eyes at anyone who thinks 30 years later that he knows better than I did then how I should have proceeded at the time). You know as well as I do that you can often tell when it would be pointless to ask a question or to try to resist a policy.
Hell, I probably would have been happier at my last job if I didn't question anything. Questioning it tended to lead to the discovery that I had already thought more about it than the people responsible for making the decision. Unfortunately, not questioning things isn't the sort of person I am...
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 11, 2021, 07:28:45 PM
Hell, I probably would have been happier at my last job if I didn't question anything. Questioning it tended to lead to the discovery that I had already thought more about it than the people responsible for making the decision. Unfortunately, not questioning things isn't the sort of person I am...
Yeah, the thing about questioning things at work is that it's either rewarded or...it isn't.
Quote from: SectorZ on October 11, 2021, 06:41:45 PMNotwithstanding what Scott5114 said above, does anybody literally ask questions at their job anymore? I questioned a lot of stupid stuff, and usually you're better off if a solution to a dumb problem either 1) saves money/time or 2) makes customers happy.
There's your problem. Business like to emphasize the "keeping customer happy", "reduce costs", and "increase speed" with the goal of "increased profits and shareholder value" at the cost of "good data handling security". In 2013, at the time of the Home Depot data breach, the United States was one of the last "swipe and sign" (magnetic stripe and a signature) nations. Europe, in the meantime, was a "chip and pin" where you had to enter in a pin number when processing a transaction. When I was in Victoria, BC in 2013 eating at a restaurant, they brought a credit card processing machine to me to process the charge, meaning that my card never left my possession. Meanwhile, it's 2021, and while some restaurants have some form of at-table processing (including mobile phone payment), many still take away your card, process it at a single terminal, and bring back the receipt. That means the card has left my possession, and there has been times where the card number was copied by the server before being brought back to the table.
And why did we get to this point? Because of the major credit card processor fearing that any barriers to using their cards means that the consumer will easily switch cards, and they would rather take the hit in fraudulent charges than lose the customer. Because the business want to use a single processing machine because setting up multiple processing machines and the secure WiFi network for at-table processing is "too complicated" and "too expensive".
Oh, but wait! There have been some restaurants which, in order to reduce the threat of theft, wanted to go cashless, meaning that you only pay with a credit or debit card. Not in New York City, Philadelphia, San Francisco, or the state of New Jersey, which has effectively banned cashless transactions (https://markholtz.info/284) because "12% of New Yorkers do not have bank accounts" and business should also serve the "unbanked" or "underbanked" .
Quote from: ZLoth on October 12, 2021, 05:34:54 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on October 11, 2021, 06:41:45 PMNotwithstanding what Scott5114 said above, does anybody literally ask questions at their job anymore? I questioned a lot of stupid stuff, and usually you're better off if a solution to a dumb problem either 1) saves money/time or 2) makes customers happy.
There's your problem. Business like to emphasize the "keeping customer happy", "reduce costs", and "increase speed" with the goal of "increased profits and shareholder value" at the cost of "good data handling security". In 2013, at the time of the Home Depot data breach, the United States was one of the last "swipe and sign" (magnetic stripe and a signature) nations. Europe, in the meantime, was a "chip and pin" where you had to enter in a pin number when processing a transaction. When I was in Victoria, BC in 2013 eating at a restaurant, they brought a credit card processing machine to me to process the charge, meaning that my card never left my possession. Meanwhile, it's 2021, and while some restaurants have some form of at-table processing (including mobile phone payment), many still take away your card, process it at a single terminal, and bring back the receipt. That means the card has left my possession, and there has been times where the card number was copied by the server before being brought back to the table.
And why did we get to this point? Because of the major credit card processor fearing that any barriers to using their cards means that the consumer will easily switch cards, and they would rather take the hit in fraudulent charges than lose the customer. Because the business want to use a single processing machine because setting up multiple processing machines and the secure WiFi network for at-table processing is "too complicated" and "too expensive".
Oh, but wait! There have been some restaurants which, in order to reduce the threat of theft, wanted to go cashless, meaning that you only pay with a credit or debit card. Not in New York City, Philadelphia, San Francisco, or the state of New Jersey, which has effectively banned cashless transactions (https://markholtz.info/284) because "12% of New Yorkers do not have bank accounts" and business should also serve the "unbanked" or "underbanked" .
Unbanked and underbanked is a completely different story. Cash vs card is irrelevant, as cash is still the legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes and dues. Going all card is a can of worms in many aspects/
Making cards more secure, however, is a completely different story. Once magnetic strip copying took off, that technology lost a lot of security. Chip is pretty reasonable alternative. There may be a lot of further enhancements, likepins and single-use transaction codes - question is where to stop, though.
It doesn't change underlying legal aspects of multiparty transaction processing. Which require signatures as a prof of getting legal agreement.
Quote from: ZLoth on October 12, 2021, 05:34:54 AMMeanwhile, it's 2021, and while some restaurants have some form of at-table processing (including mobile phone payment), many still take away your card, process it at a single terminal, and bring back the receipt. That means the card has left my possession, and there has been times where the card number was copied by the server before being brought back to the table.
Even more surprising is the fact that gas stations, by and large, don't accept chip or contactless payment methods at the pumps. It is difficult, if not impossible, to clone a chip card. The information on a mag stripe is static, where the info on the chip is dynamic.
Smartphone ownership is a defacto requirement at this point given the places I been to require a phone number for deals reasons. Note I give a proxy Google Voice number in these cases.
Quote from: kalvado on October 12, 2021, 09:41:42 AMUnbanked and underbanked is a completely different story. Cash vs card is irrelevant, as cash is still the legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes and dues.
From the Federal Reserve Bank (https://markholtz.info/2g8):
QuoteIs it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment?
There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise.
Quote from: kalvado on October 12, 2021, 09:41:42 AMCash vs card is irrelevant, as cash is still the legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes and dues.
That's doesn't mean what you think it means.
To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.
I don't think that is the case. Try to buy a house or a car with stacks of $100s. They won't accept them and they don't have to. Get a cashier's check for it. They don't want the responsibility for miscounting or a counterfit bill - bankers get training in those things.
Quote from: kkt on October 12, 2021, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.
I don't think that is the case. Try to buy a house or a car with stacks of $100s. They won't accept them and they don't have to. Get a cashier's check for it. They don't want the responsibility for miscounting or a counterfit bill - bankers get training in those things.
You don't owe them any money when you bring them the stacks of $100s. It's always possible to cancel the transaction.
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 12:23:08 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 12, 2021, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.
I don't think that is the case. Try to buy a house or a car with stacks of $100s. They won't accept them and they don't have to. Get a cashier's check for it. They don't want the responsibility for miscounting or a counterfit bill - bankers get training in those things.
You don't owe them any money when you bring them the stacks of $100s. It's always possible to cancel the transaction.
Essentially if the product or service has already been provided, you can pay with cash. That is generally not the case with a large purchase being made by an individual. Although it's more common for business-to-business transactions, businesses have systems for payments and don't typically use cash like an individual would.
The guy who mows our lawn takes only cash. I offered him to pay him 15% more to accept Venmo and he wouldn't do it. I'm guessing he doesn't report his income and is avoiding any paper trail.
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.
Not true, at least under federal statutes. No business or person is required to accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. The legal tender statutes simply ensure that use of currency or coins can't be considered an attempt at fraud.
Some states may require that businesses/organizations/individuals accept accept currency and coins -- I don't know if any currently do but I believe a few states were at least considering such legislation earlier this year. Other than that, a business is perfectly free to demand payment for services with peanut M&Ms if it so chooses.
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
Quote from: webny99 on October 12, 2021, 12:41:14 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 12:23:08 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 12, 2021, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.
I don't think that is the case. Try to buy a house or a car with stacks of $100s. They won't accept them and they don't have to. Get a cashier's check for it. They don't want the responsibility for miscounting or a counterfit bill - bankers get training in those things.
You don't owe them any money when you bring them the stacks of $100s. It's always possible to cancel the transaction.
Essentially if the product or service has already been provided, you can pay with cash. That is generally not the case with a large purchase being made by an individual. Although it's more common for business-to-business transactions, businesses have systems for payments and don't typically use cash like an individual would.
Point here is that cash may be tricky in many aspects. Employee stealing cash, security of handling cash, different bank fee structure, less oversight (cannabis business). But non of those issues is new, most are as old as cash itself is.
We're talking primarily about new technologies - security of credit card transactions, in particular in relation to phones. My gut feeling is that cash, while possibly not being preferable option, should work with all small transaction - say below $20 or $100. Now, talking about AET....
Quote from: kalvado on October 12, 2021, 12:50:55 PM
Now, talking about AET....
Giving drivers the option to turn around will solve the legal tender law violation.
Typically, statutes regarding AET systems include some provision requiring the motorist to make arrangements to pay the toll before using the road (generally, this means getting the appropriate transponder). There's nothing, other than common sense, preventing anyone from mailing in cash to replenish an E-ZPass, for example.
At least in Virginia, cash-payers also have the Reload Card option (https://www.ezpassva.com/). Thus, someone can pay cash even though there is no old-fashioned tollbooth at which he would stop and hand over his money.
Quote from: kkt on October 12, 2021, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.
I don't think that is the case. Try to buy a house or a car with stacks of $100s. They won't accept them and they don't have to. Get a cashier's check for it. They don't want the responsibility for miscounting or a counterfit bill - bankers get training in those things.
The training is "why are you counting and verifying that by hand? put it in the money counter, you fool."
(https://www.cumminsallison.com/static/loaded_images/fast-money-counter-machine-jetscan-ifx-i200-cash-counter-affordable-reliable-currency-counter-easy-to-use-CumminsAllison-80943773.jpeg)
From experience, you can count a seven-digit amount of money with dead accuracy on one of these in...oh...fifteen minutes.
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 12, 2021, 11:20:52 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 12, 2021, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 12, 2021, 11:35:55 AM
To clarify: if you owe someone else money, they must accept cash. (They can say no $50s or $100s as long as it's stated ahead of time and easy for anyone to see.) If someone is going to your house to do plumbing work and you pay at the end, they must accept cash. If you're at a sit-down restaurant, you typically pay at the end, so they must accept cash (otherwise, someone with only cash would be unable to pay, which is what legal tender laws prevent). If you go into a Walmart, they are not required to accept cash, since you have the option of not getting the items you took to the register; you have the option of not doing any transaction.
I don't think that is the case. Try to buy a house or a car with stacks of $100s. They won't accept them and they don't have to. Get a cashier's check for it. They don't want the responsibility for miscounting or a counterfit bill - bankers get training in those things.
The training is "why are you counting and verifying that by hand? put it in the money counter, you fool."
(https://www.cumminsallison.com/static/loaded_images/fast-money-counter-machine-jetscan-ifx-i200-cash-counter-affordable-reliable-currency-counter-easy-to-use-CumminsAllison-80943773.jpeg)
From experience, you can count a seven-digit amount of money with dead accuracy on one of these in...oh...fifteen minutes.
Is the money counter good at rejecting counterfits?
^^^
Makes me wonder how the bill readers in vending machines can tell if you insert a $1, a $5, or just a random sheet of paper.
At one time in this area, someone had discovered a bunch of washers that were the exact size and weight of a quarter. Gobs of them were found in vending machines. Not sure how the companies responded to that.
Quote from: kkt on October 13, 2021, 01:41:45 AMIs the money counter good at rejecting counterfeits?
Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2021, 12:19:53 PMMakes me wonder how the bill readers in vending machines can tell if you insert a $1, a $5, or just a random sheet of paper.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency-counting_machine
I suspect there is an element of getting what you pay for. Pattern recognition is used to identify bill denomination (not sure how the equipment is updated to accommodate changes in bill design), and albedo measurement (using UV) is used to identify counterfeits that have been produced using washed paper (genuine paper is unwashed) or lack fluorescent markings that are applied to real bills when they are printed.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2021, 12:19:53 PM
^^^
Makes me wonder how the bill readers in vending machines can tell if you insert a $1, a $5, or just a random sheet of paper.
At one time in this area, someone had discovered a bunch of washers that were the exact size and weight of a quarter. Gobs of them were found in vending machines. Not sure how the companies responded to that.
I suspect that is a never ending cycle. One thing about US coins is that they are non-magnetic, while washers likely are (canadian coins are magnetic as well). So that may be an easy path of protection.
Some obscure foreign coins sometimes show up. I got a french franc in the change - not once, but twice! - long after those were replaced by euros. At some point it may be easier to accept some loss, or use social methods (e.g. "if this continues, this vending machine is gone for good!")
Quote from: kalvado on October 13, 2021, 12:50:53 PMAt some point it may be easier to accept some loss, or use social methods (e.g. "if this continues, this vending machine is gone for good!")
I've always assumed that merchandise from vending machines is high-margin to cover the costs of things like fraudulent use of tokens, attempts to break into the cash handler to steal coins and bills, and even toppling the machine in an attempt to extract vended goods that fail to release.
As a result, I tend to view vending machines not as an amenity, but rather as a sign of a low-trust environment.
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 13, 2021, 01:13:20 PM
Quote from: kalvado on October 13, 2021, 12:50:53 PMAt some point it may be easier to accept some loss, or use social methods (e.g. "if this continues, this vending machine is gone for good!")
I've always assumed that merchandise from vending machines is high-margin to cover the costs of things like fraudulent use of tokens, attempts to break into the cash handler to steal coins and bills, and even toppling the machine in an attempt to extract vended goods that fail to release.
As a result, I tend to view vending machines not as an amenity, but rather as a sign of a low-trust environment.
Vending machines are there for those who needs stuff here and now, so high markup is justified. Sometimes, your other choices are not much better, if present, until you choose to drive to a nearby wallmart (and have to spend gas, clock off for the trip, loose parking spot, or what not). Option of not buying that overpriced thing is always there!
Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2021, 12:19:53 PM
^^^
Makes me wonder how the bill readers in vending machines can tell if you insert a $1, a $5, or just a random sheet of paper.
Not very well, considering how often they reject authentic bills.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 13, 2021, 12:19:53 PMAt one time in this area, someone had discovered a bunch of washers that were the exact size and weight of a quarter. Gobs of them were found in vending machines. Not sure how the companies responded to that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut_Turnpike#Token_war_with_New_York_City_Subway
Also, I'm pretty sure I've heard that coin-operated machines had trouble distinguishing Susan B. Anthony dollars from quarters.
Quote from: kalvado on October 13, 2021, 01:27:48 PMOption of not buying that overpriced thing is always there!
Indeed it is, as is "Anticipate your needs and bring from home" and "Don't allow this vending-machine company to exploit your employees and customers."
Quote from: kkt on October 13, 2021, 01:41:45 AM
Is the money counter good at rejecting counterfits?
Too good–false positives are far more common than false negatives. Automated counterfeit detection is essential in commercial cash processing, because, when dealing with currency by the strap, there is no time to manually examine each bill.
The usual setup for a two-pocket money counter like the one I posted the image of is to have the machine stack all of the accepted and counted bills in the bottom pocket, while unreadable ("no-call") bills and suspected counterfeits are diverted to the top pocket for later manual examination. Smaller one-pocket machines stop the count and beep at you when they detect a counterfeit, and the user must examine the top bill of the stack and tell the machine to accept or reject it before resuming processing.
By the way, these machines can also tell the denomination of a bill and count accordingly. If you stick a $1 in a strap of $100s and run it, it will duly display the total as $9,901. (Or you can tell it you'd like to only count $100s, and it will kick the $1 into the reject pocket for you and display a total of $9,900.)
Quote from: J N Winkler on October 13, 2021, 12:30:28 PM
I suspect there is an element of getting what you pay for. Pattern recognition is used to identify bill denomination (not sure how the equipment is updated to accommodate changes in bill design), and albedo measurement (using UV) is used to identify counterfeits that have been produced using washed paper (genuine paper is unwashed) or lack fluorescent markings that are applied to real bills when they are printed.
Any time there is a new bill design released, Treasury releases advance design details to the major players in the market. Most institutional users, like casinos and banks, have a service contract to maintain the machines, so as part of that contract, they send a representative out to flash the machine with new firmware before the bills are released to the public. Cummins-Allison, in particular, will also affix a sticker to the back of the machine to allow the user to ascertain when the last firmware update without having to run a bill through and see what happens.
(https://i.imgur.com/pXN5kb8.jpg)
The above is from a Cummins JetScan that I bought off of eBay used for a pittance because it jams. It is simply in need of a new bearing, which are available online, but I haven't repaired it yet because it's kind of a pain to get to, and because it would still need to be flashed to accommodate the current (G-type) $100. I'm not sure how that could be accomplished without asking the Cummins-Allison office here in Norman to do that for me, and I suspect that without a service contract it will be more expensive than I'm willing to spend on what amounts to a silly toy for someone who doesn't regularly deal with straps of currency at home.
Dusting off this thread.
I'm currently on a business trip to Toronto (new county and new airport to add to my collection).
Just before I left my car to head into the terminal, I realized my phone's case wasn't fitting properly. Apparently, the phone's battery is starting to swell. It's therefore unsafe to use, and I left it behind.
Out of personal curiosity, I've started keeping a list of uses of my smartphone that I'm noticing through their lack.
So far:
- Telephone / text message device (I call my wife every night when on the road)
- Access to email
- Web browser
- Access to my corporate network (I have an RSA token app on my phone, required to log in)
- Phone book (Getting in touch with corporate IT to find a workaround to the above will be interesting, since our Canadian business and US business operate pretty independently except for oddballs like me)
- Camera
- Note-taking device (e.g. I would have made a few notes about where I left my car at the airport, since I didn't fly out of my usual airport)
- Travel organizer (I would normally have relied on my phone to remember travel details, like which hotel was reserved for me by corporate travel)
- Boarding pass
- Book/library
- Customs/Immigration declaration (normally when flying cross-border, I'd do most of the formalities on my phone in advance, expediting the process)
- Access to Uber (very few cabs when I got out of the destination airport)
- Insurance documentation (renting a car was out, since I don't keep an insurance card in my wallet anymore)
- Navigation device (navigating local public transport, and finding the hotel in this unfamiliar-to-me place was....interesting)
- Shopping tool
- Password manager
- Watch
- Alarm clock
- White noise generator
- Music / audiobook player.
- Home automation control (my phone controls lights on/off at home, mimicking my living patterns, when away)
- Home alarm control
- Parking pass (I prepaid my airport parking for a discount, accessing parking with a QR code)
I went ahead and ordered a new phone, which should be delivered to my house the day after I return. I expect this list of uses (which I'm maintaining out of personal curiosity) will grow between now and then.
I'm surprised you don't use the smart phone camera to take backup photos of the receipts.
In addition, I'm able to access my medical records from my smart phone as well, including current prescriptions.
And then the battery fails when you are away from any place to service it, essentially causing it to become a 'tile'....
:-o
Mike
More and more major sports teams are now requiring that a cell phone app be scanned for ticketing and admissions, too. I'm worried about cold weather performance of the phone and its battery for this.
(grrrrr...)
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on August 18, 2022, 12:42:14 PM
More and more major sports teams are now requiring that a cell phone app be scanned for ticketing and admissions, too. I'm worried about cold weather performance of the phone and its battery for this.
(grrrrr...)
Mike
I know this isn't a perfect solution, but if it's cold enough to worry about that, you're probably wearing a coat warm enough to put the phone inside of.
Some parking, even public street parking, requires a smart phone in order to pay.
Some businesses train their clerks to ask for a cell phone number from all customers, because email is too easy to ignore.
Quote from: mgk920 on August 18, 2022, 12:42:14 PM
More and more major sports teams are now requiring that a cell phone app be scanned for ticketing and admissions, too. I'm worried about cold weather performance of the phone and its battery for this.
(grrrrr...)
Mike
A good ticketing app will have Google/Apple Pay integration, which helps with performance (less resources consumed and faster to load).
That said I do miss having paper tickets to negotiate with scalpers.
Quote from: ZLoth on August 18, 2022, 12:26:21 PM
I'm surprised you don't use the smart phone camera to take backup photos of the receipts.
I haven't needed to do that this trip, so far. Actually, I think I've only done the "take a picture of your receipt" trick once in the past dozen-or-so business trips. (Parking receipt on my last trip to Montréal, since I was driving home after work on my last day up there, and therefore couldn't use a hotel garage.).
Hotel receipts are generally emailed to me. Plane tickets bought through the corporate travel system don't require receipts. I don't normally expense meals unless I'm in a situation where I'm obliged to spend more than I normally pay for food at home.
Additions to my list of things I wish I had my phone for:
- Finding my desk at the office (post-pandemic, we reserve desks, which are identified by number; if I had had my phone, I would have known where my desk for the day was.)
- Phone again -- phones seem to have disappeared from cubes and some conference rooms with the shift to hybrid work, since most cubes are vacant these days, since most voice communications has moved to Teams, and since most of my coworkers have their business numbers routed to their cell phones
- Teams client
- Calendar
- To-Do List
- News source
- Calculator
Quote from: kkt on August 18, 2022, 01:35:27 PM
Some businesses train their clerks to ask for a cell phone number from all customers, because email is too easy to ignore.
Joke's on them, then–I practically never even look at my phone when it starts ringing, because I never get any calls from anyone I want to talk to!
Quote from: kkt on August 18, 2022, 01:35:27 PM
Some businesses train their clerks to ask for a cell phone number from all customers, because email is too easy to ignore.
You can say no. If they already have your money, they don't need your damn phone number.
Quote from: Ned Weasel on August 18, 2022, 09:31:56 PM
Quote from: kkt on August 18, 2022, 01:35:27 PM
Some businesses train their clerks to ask for a cell phone number from all customers, because email is too easy to ignore.
You can say no. If they already have your money, they don't need your damn phone number.
Or just give either a fake number or an old number.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 18, 2022, 09:54:17 PM
Quote from: Ned Weasel on August 18, 2022, 09:31:56 PM
Quote from: kkt on August 18, 2022, 01:35:27 PM
Some businesses train their clerks to ask for a cell phone number from all customers, because email is too easy to ignore.
You can say no. If they already have your money, they don't need your damn phone number.
Or just give either a fake number or an old number.
I give them my landline number, which will take a message if a person calls but pretty effectively blocks robocalls.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 18, 2022, 09:54:17 PM
Quote from: Ned Weasel on August 18, 2022, 09:31:56 PM
Quote from: kkt on August 18, 2022, 01:35:27 PM
Some businesses train their clerks to ask for a cell phone number from all customers, because email is too easy to ignore.
You can say no. If they already have your money, they don't need your damn phone number.
Or just give either a fake number or an old number.
867-5309
(New to this thread). The answer is yes; it already is.
Quote from: kkt on August 18, 2022, 01:35:27 PM
Some parking, even public street parking, requires a smart phone in order to pay.
Some businesses train their clerks to ask for a cell phone number from all customers, because email is too easy to ignore.
The most difficult messages for me to overlook or ignore are hard copy ones that are brought to me by someone from the United States Postal Service and are marked 'First Class Mail'.
Mike
Quote from: kkt on August 18, 2022, 01:35:27 PM
Some businesses train their clerks to ask for a cell phone number from all customers, because email is too easy to ignore.
Quote from: Ned Weasel on August 18, 2022, 09:31:56 PM
You can say no. If they already have your money, they don't need your damn phone number.
About five or six years ago, I tried to buy a particular tool that I could only get at one of those cheap tool warehouses (can't remember which one, and I'm sure that will come back to haunt me). Anyhow, I was planning to use a credit card and they asked for my phone number. I politely said "I'm sorry, but we don't give out our phone numbers" and then offered to pay in cash. She sternly said that it was company policy to require a phone number and home address. I walked away from the sale and ended up having to take the machine in for repairs (which cost many times more than the tool did).
^^^^
I worked at a computer store in the early 1990s and we had a strict policy about asking for phone numbers and addresses. Naturally, all of us had programmed in some dummy information (typically stuff like WJ Clinton at 1600 Pennsylvania or A. Gore at One Observatory Circle) so that we could process cash sales where the customer got belligerent. Management theoretically prohibited that, but they let it go because they understood the value of making the sale versus standing on principle about building a marketing database.
I wonder how much automatically-generated junk mail the White House gets from people doing things like that. I almost made Donald Trump a player's club account at the casino I worked at for similar reasons, but backed out without saving out of fear of what would happen if a mailer went out with his name on it (and because we had policies in place specifically for handling data of "politically-exposed persons" that I didn't want to run afoul of just because I was trying to save some time; considering that Trump has ties to the gaming industry it would be quasi-reasonable to think he might have a legitimate account for some reason). I ended up just making an account for the supervisor's D&D character instead and used some address in Norman I knew didn't exist.
Yes, probably a lot. When our college library was getting a new automation system, we practiced creating fake records for borrowers so we could try everything out before it went live. One of the borrower records put it was the president at the white house. We got it mailed back with a letter from a white house staff member asking (politely) if we were for real. And we got a lesson in creating fake borrower records that couldn't accidentally be delivered to real people.
I can't remember the last time I was asked in person for a phone number or address while trying to buy something. It's easier to extort that information through an online form by playing on the fear that false information will trigger anti-fraud measures that prevent the transaction from going through, but if it is in person, then it is pretty obvious the information is being collected for marketing purposes.
I'll be asked to confirm my address and phone number for a purchase later this morning, but it's understandable because I'm going to be getting a new pair of prescription glasses and it'll take a week or two for them to cut the lenses and they'll have to contact me when they're ready. So that sort of thing makes eminent sense to me.
I really wonder how useful that phone & e-mail information is.
I get my fair share of spam SMSes and calls, but those seem to go all over the place. After all, there are only that many valid area code and exchange combinations (aka first 5-6 digits) to cover. Filter out big business with block allocation of numbers, and here you go. The only unwanted but targeted texts come from local pet shelter, but I just cannot make myself to unsubscribe from those.
Genuine promotion e-mails... Most e-mail systems collect them into a separate group to look through when you're bored. Cleaning up that folder every year takes only that much effort. I don't remember when I saw purely spam e-mails (like pЄni$ enlargement) last time.
In many cases you also get something useful - like 1% discount on store brand or electronic emailed receipt - as part of "loyality program".
If you're under the age of 35, smartphones have pretty much been around your entire adult life. I have to imagine that within 20 years, the number of independent adults attempting to navigate life without one will be pretty close to zero.
On a purchase I completed this week, there were places for Phone and Cell Phone. I filled in the cell, along with other information they needed. Pushed submit, and got the dreaded missing information message. So I went back. Phone was a required field, Cell Phone optional. I put my cell number in both fields and the order went through.
Quote from: GaryV on August 20, 2022, 03:08:51 PM
On a purchase I completed this week, there were places for Phone and Cell Phone. I filled in the cell, along with other information they needed. Pushed submit, and got the dreaded missing information message. So I went back. Phone was a required field, Cell Phone optional. I put my cell number in both fields and the order went through.
I still remember how Sprint used to require phone number as part of their account information - and it could not be the cell number.
Quote from: kalvado on August 20, 2022, 10:40:04 AM
I really wonder how useful that phone & e-mail information is.
[...]
In many cases you also get something useful - like 1% discount on store brand or electronic emailed receipt - as part of "loyality program".
It's not about actually contacting you (although that helps), it's about having some consistent reference to correlate purchases with. Data like "men 18-35 who buy X item frequently also buy Y", and "women 18-35 often buy brand Y, but women ages 36-65 buy brand Z" is invaluable data. Of course if you can then act upon it by sending a coupon for something your data shows they'll want, so much the better.
Target has gotten so good at doing this that they got in a little hot water for sending a teenage girl coupons for pregnancy supplies before she knew she was pregnant. But her purchase history showed she was likely to be, and it turned out the algorithm was right.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 20, 2022, 04:49:20 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 20, 2022, 10:40:04 AM
I really wonder how useful that phone & e-mail information is.
[...]
In many cases you also get something useful - like 1% discount on store brand or electronic emailed receipt - as part of "loyality program".
It's not about actually contacting you (although that helps), it's about having some consistent reference to correlate purchases with. Data like "men 18-35 who buy X item frequently also buy Y", and "women 18-35 often buy brand Y, but women ages 36-65 buy brand Z" is invaluable data. Of course if you can then act upon it by sending a coupon for something your data shows they'll want, so much the better.
Target has gotten so good at doing this that they got in a little hot water for sending a teenage girl coupons for pregnancy supplies before she knew she was pregnant. But her purchase history showed she was likely to be, and it turned out the algorithm was right.
Question is how bad that is in a grand scheme of things. I don't mind some coupons for things I need.
But again, most of my identifiable purchases are from grocery stores. Yes, I buy yogurt and don't mind trying brands on a cheap. So what? Yogurt coupon? May I have two of them?
The most cheesy thing happened to me is Walmart apparently identifying me by credit card number I used online with them, and they used to email survey after in-store transaction where card was only identifying piece. Coupled with mandatory security cameras and face recognition.... That may be a lot...
Quote from: kalvado on August 20, 2022, 05:47:56 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 20, 2022, 04:49:20 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 20, 2022, 10:40:04 AM
I really wonder how useful that phone & e-mail information is.
[...]
In many cases you also get something useful - like 1% discount on store brand or electronic emailed receipt - as part of "loyality program".
It's not about actually contacting you (although that helps), it's about having some consistent reference to correlate purchases with. Data like "men 18-35 who buy X item frequently also buy Y", and "women 18-35 often buy brand Y, but women ages 36-65 buy brand Z" is invaluable data. Of course if you can then act upon it by sending a coupon for something your data shows they'll want, so much the better.
Target has gotten so good at doing this that they got in a little hot water for sending a teenage girl coupons for pregnancy supplies before she knew she was pregnant. But her purchase history showed she was likely to be, and it turned out the algorithm was right.
Question is how bad that is in a grand scheme of things. I don't mind some coupons for things I need.
But again, most of my identifiable purchases are from grocery stores. Yes, I buy yogurt and don't mind trying brands on a cheap. So what? Yogurt coupon? May I have two of them?
The most cheesy thing happened to me is Walmart apparently identifying me by credit card number I used online with them, and they used to email survey after in-store transaction where card was only identifying piece. Coupled with mandatory security cameras and face recognition.... That may be a lot...
Yeah, it really depends a lot on what sort of store it is that's collecting the data. A grocery store is no big deal, although someone knowing your diet could have some negative implications ("this person eats like garbage, let's send them a Cheetos coupon"). It gets far more into "yikes" territory when it's a general retailer like Walmart/Target/Amazon that can paint a much more complete picture of the sort of person someone is based on the type of products they buy.
And of course, since that sort of data has value, it can theoretically be sold to anyone. Even if you don't mind the grocery store knowing what types of meat you buy, they could sell that info to some other company that has also bought your purchase history from a few other stores.
Add to list of places that require a cell phone: US Postal Service for setting up a vacation hold for mail. It doesn't insist that the "cell phone" number be filled in setting up the account, but if you don't it will not verify the account until you have a postcard with a code number mailed to you.
And there are plenty of stores (especially grocery) that use "shopper's cards" giving them personal info and a record of what you buy. No card = pay inflated regular price. One place that doesn't use them is Meijer, but they still mail me coupons based on my previous purchases.
Quote from: Big John on August 20, 2022, 07:25:16 PM
No card = pay inflated regular price.
At Stop & Shop and Shaw's, they'll put the store card in for you if you don't have one, unless the cashier forgets to (which almost never happens). You can do so at self-checkout by clicking "Forgot Card", but it's not obvious that you can do so. CVS won't put the store card in, though.
Clearance items don't require a card at Stop & Shop and CVS (haven't tested Shaw's), so even if you don't have a card, you can still get clearance Easter/Halloween/Christmas candy at CVS.
Quote from: kkt on August 20, 2022, 07:07:58 PM
Add to list of places that require a cell phone: US Postal Service for setting up a vacation hold for mail. It doesn't insist that the "cell phone" number be filled in setting up the account, but if you don't it will not verify the account until you have a postcard with a code number mailed to you.
We used to have an online account with USPS to set up a vacation hold, until they changed over to this policy. Now we have to fill out the old-fashioned yellow cards again.
Quote from: Big John on August 20, 2022, 07:25:16 PM
And there are plenty of stores (especially grocery) that use "shopper's cards" giving them personal info and a record of what you buy. No card = pay inflated regular price. One place that doesn't use them is Meijer, but they still mail me coupons based on my previous purchases.
The Festival Foods stores here in NE Wisconsin always have piles of their current ad inserts by the entrances. They scan the code from the ad insert and give all of its discounted prices at checkout. Yes, they know that the various items in your cart have been sold, but they have no idea of to whom if you used a regular lane at the checkout and paid with cash.
Mike
Quote from: Dirt Roads on August 20, 2022, 10:32:12 PM
Quote from: kkt on August 20, 2022, 07:07:58 PM
Add to list of places that require a cell phone: US Postal Service for setting up a vacation hold for mail. It doesn't insist that the "cell phone" number be filled in setting up the account, but if you don't it will not verify the account until you have a postcard with a code number mailed to you.
We used to have an online account with USPS to set up a vacation hold, until they changed over to this policy. Now we have to fill out the old-fashioned yellow cards again.
Last time I filled out a paper hold mail form, the clerk at the counter accepted it... and then they didn't hold the mail. The carrier just stuffed it all in the mailbox even though it didn't fit.
Quote from: mgk920 on August 20, 2022, 11:13:32 PM
Quote from: Big John on August 20, 2022, 07:25:16 PM
And there are plenty of stores (especially grocery) that use "shopper's cards" giving them personal info and a record of what you buy. No card = pay inflated regular price. One place that doesn't use them is Meijer, but they still mail me coupons based on my previous purchases.
The Festival Foods stores here in NE Wisconsin always have piles of their current ad inserts by the entrances. They scan the code from the ad insert and give all of its discounted prices at checkout. Yes, they know that the various items in your cart have been sold, but they have no idea of to whom if you used a regular lane at the checkout and paid with cash.
Mike
You
hope they don't know.
Paying cash is a good start, but nowhere near enough.
They can certainly use security cameras footage for face recognition identifying you as "that guy who uses cash in store #1234". They may do a license plate match on top of that if you park too close.
Don't use in-store pharmacy or win lottery as you need to identify yourself in those cases. No tobacco or alcohol buying as date of birth is a powerful id tool.
Growing food in a backyard garden is a bit more secure, but you still have to get seeds and fertilizer....
^ Meijer uses MPerks, which is the only reason I know my wife's cell phone number. You have to key it in. Then they can track your purchases to tailor coupons specific to you. Many of them digital coupons inside the MPerks app.
From Daily Mail Online:
50 items you'd have to carry to replace your smartphoneQuoteSome couldn't live without one, while others see them as a curse of modern life.
But whatever your view of smartphones, without one in your pocket you would have to lug around the equivalent of 50 separate items.
Its technology replaces the need to carry a map, a camera, train timetables and a host of other essentials.
While a smartphone easily fits in the palm of a hand and weighs about 5oz, researchers estimate it would take two rucksacks to haul all the extra items around.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2ok)
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/10/11/23/453D664700000578-0-image-a-24_1507760721385.jpg)
Quote from: ZLoth on August 21, 2022, 09:33:16 AM
From Daily Mail Online:
50 items you'd have to carry to replace your smartphoneQuoteSome couldn't live without one, while others see them as a curse of modern life.
But whatever your view of smartphones, without one in your pocket you would have to lug around the equivalent of 50 separate items.
Its technology replaces the need to carry a map, a camera, train timetables and a host of other essentials.
While a smartphone easily fits in the palm of a hand and weighs about 5oz, researchers estimate it would take two rucksacks to haul all the extra items around.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2ok)
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/10/11/23/453D664700000578-0-image-a-24_1507760721385.jpg)
Pretty bad one.
CDs and MP3 player are pretty much same functionality. No CD player included, though.
Not sure how a phone can replace a checkbook, at least in US.
I have only rudimentary ruller capability, no tape measure - and I didn't see anything with built-in weighting capability.
Quote from: kalvado on August 21, 2022, 09:56:12 AMCDs and MP3 player are pretty much same functionality. No CD player included, though.
The core purpose of CDs and MP3s was to play back audio material. You can now stream or download your music, audio books, or other audio to your phone, replacing a separate player.
Quote from: kalvado on August 21, 2022, 09:56:12 AMNot sure how a phone can replace a checkbook, at least in US.
Instead of writing a check, you can "PayPal", "Venmo", or "Zelle" your payment as an ACH payment from your checking account. You can also use NFC to "tap and pay".
Quote from: kalvado on August 21, 2022, 09:56:12 AMI have only rudimentary ruler capability, no tape measure - and I didn't see anything with built-in weighting capability.
Yeah, that one is a stretch, but they do have "bluetooth scales" and "bluetooth rulers".
Quote from: ZLoth on August 21, 2022, 10:41:47 AM
Quote from: kalvado on August 21, 2022, 09:56:12 AMCDs and MP3 player are pretty much same functionality. No CD player included, though.
The core purpose of CDs and MP3s was to play back audio material. You can now stream or download your music, audio books, or other audio to your phone, replacing a separate player.
While true, they either have to add tape player and turntable to the list; or list just 1 item. Alternatively, they may say that phone replaces every single album released and make a claim "it replaces million+ items"
Quote from: ZLoth on August 21, 2022, 10:41:47 AM
Quote from: kalvado on August 21, 2022, 09:56:12 AMNot sure how a phone can replace a checkbook, at least in US.
Instead of writing a check, you can "PayPal", "Venmo", or "Zelle" your payment as an ACH payment from your checking account. You can also use NFC to "tap and pay".
I still have to see a contractor willing to accept Venmo or Zelle. Venmo would incur card fees, I assume; and Zelle/ACH does not provide a real proof of payment. Not to mention that ACH itself is a sad and pathetic excuse for what the modern payment system should be.
Quote from: ZLoth on August 21, 2022, 10:41:47 AM
Quote from: kalvado on August 21, 2022, 09:56:12 AMI have only rudimentary ruler capability, no tape measure - and I didn't see anything with built-in weighting capability.
Yeah, that one is a stretch, but they do have "bluetooth scales" and "bluetooth rulers".
I have on-screen ruler which somewhat works. Measuring screw length is OKish. And TOF cameras may get some tape functionality eventually, not sure what the status of those are.
Quote from: kalvado on August 21, 2022, 06:54:53 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on August 20, 2022, 11:13:32 PM
Quote from: Big John on August 20, 2022, 07:25:16 PM
And there are plenty of stores (especially grocery) that use "shopper's cards" giving them personal info and a record of what you buy. No card = pay inflated regular price. One place that doesn't use them is Meijer, but they still mail me coupons based on my previous purchases.
The Festival Foods stores here in NE Wisconsin always have piles of their current ad inserts by the entrances. They scan the code from the ad insert and give all of its discounted prices at checkout. Yes, they know that the various items in your cart have been sold, but they have no idea of to whom if you used a regular lane at the checkout and paid with cash.
Mike
You hope they don't know.
Paying cash is a good start, but nowhere near enough.
They can certainly use security cameras footage for face recognition identifying you as "that guy who uses cash in store #1234". They may do a license plate match on top of that if you park too close.
Don't use in-store pharmacy or win lottery as you need to identify yourself in those cases. No tobacco or alcohol buying as date of birth is a powerful id tool.
My wife works surveillance in a casino so I know a fair bit about this, and...that's a bit beyond the current limits of technology, or at least providing a enough of a benefit to provide a positive ROI is. Certainly it would be defeated by a pandemic-style face mask. The most reliable facial recognition software is what runs in the cashier's brain.
The magic that happens in a casino is merely getting a few times and places where a given customer is known to have been, then running the tape backward to see if they interact with something that would force them to give up personally-identifable information (using a player's club card, going to an ATM, cashing a check, buying alcohol, getting into a car, etc.)
In my experience handling personally-identifiable information, date of birth is really only helpful to identify which John Smith you have. In isolation it's not all that helpful because birthdays tend to cluster (there are far more people born in September than there are any other month, for example, and there are certain holidays almost nobody is born on because doctors don't schedule C-sections on those days).
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 21, 2022, 04:41:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 21, 2022, 06:54:53 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on August 20, 2022, 11:13:32 PM
Quote from: Big John on August 20, 2022, 07:25:16 PM
And there are plenty of stores (especially grocery) that use "shopper's cards" giving them personal info and a record of what you buy. No card = pay inflated regular price. One place that doesn't use them is Meijer, but they still mail me coupons based on my previous purchases.
The Festival Foods stores here in NE Wisconsin always have piles of their current ad inserts by the entrances. They scan the code from the ad insert and give all of its discounted prices at checkout. Yes, they know that the various items in your cart have been sold, but they have no idea of to whom if you used a regular lane at the checkout and paid with cash.
Mike
You hope they don't know.
Paying cash is a good start, but nowhere near enough.
They can certainly use security cameras footage for face recognition identifying you as "that guy who uses cash in store #1234". They may do a license plate match on top of that if you park too close.
Don't use in-store pharmacy or win lottery as you need to identify yourself in those cases. No tobacco or alcohol buying as date of birth is a powerful id tool.
My wife works surveillance in a casino so I know a fair bit about this, and...that's a bit beyond the current limits of technology, or at least providing a enough of a benefit to provide a positive ROI is. Certainly it would be defeated by a pandemic-style face mask. The most reliable facial recognition software is what runs in the cashier's brain.
The magic that happens in a casino is merely getting a few times and places where a given customer is known to have been, then running the tape backward to see if they interact with something that would force them to give up personally-identifable information (using a player's club card, going to an ATM, cashing a check, buying alcohol, getting into a car, etc.)
In my experience handling personally-identifiable information, date of birth is really only helpful to identify which John Smith you have. In isolation it's not all that helpful because birthdays tend to cluster (there are far more people born in September than there are any other month, for example, and there are certain holidays almost nobody is born on because doctors don't schedule C-sections on those days).
It may also be about what is available commercially, and how much casino is willing to go towards identifying those who may not want to be. My impression is that training on social media datasets can do a lot. Certainly Chinese social indexes can do a lot with face recognition.
On the other hand, how important is full identity vs relative one? Anonymous patterns may be as useful, but less challenging legally. "#12345 - male in his 40s" could be good enough if same person can be recognized on each shopping trip.
Quote from: kalvado on August 21, 2022, 05:33:01 PM
It may also be about what is available commercially, and how much casino is willing to go towards identifying those who may not want to be. My impression is that training on social media datasets can do a lot. Certainly Chinese social indexes can do a lot with face recognition.
On the other hand, how important is full identity vs relative one? Anonymous patterns may be as useful, but less challenging legally. "#12345 - male in his 40s" could be good enough if same person can be recognized on each shopping trip.
Generally, a casino is willing to go quite far, since their motive in doing so is normally to find out who is doing something illegal so they can turn it over to police. Having drug dealers and thieves around is bad for business, and tracking for potential money laundering is required by federal law. But yeah, there's no AI or anything involved, just a team of operators watching the cameras very carefully. At least out here. Las Vegas might have more advanced systems.
When I was working in the cage, we'd usually just track people for anti-money-laundering compliance with just a post-it note reading something like "Guy in red hat–cashed out $1300" and update the running total until it hit the threshold where we were required to get his ID.
China has some pretty impressive tech, but they have 1) the financial backing of the entire national government 2) no profit motive and 3) no privacy laws they have to comply with. What they can do is certainly not going to be viable for Kroger to use to track someone's salami purchases.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 21, 2022, 05:49:45 PM
Quote from: kalvado on August 21, 2022, 05:33:01 PM
It may also be about what is available commercially, and how much casino is willing to go towards identifying those who may not want to be. My impression is that training on social media datasets can do a lot. Certainly Chinese social indexes can do a lot with face recognition.
On the other hand, how important is full identity vs relative one? Anonymous patterns may be as useful, but less challenging legally. "#12345 - male in his 40s" could be good enough if same person can be recognized on each shopping trip.
Generally, a casino is willing to go quite far, since their motive in doing so is normally to find out who is doing something illegal so they can turn it over to police. Having drug dealers and thieves around is bad for business, and tracking for potential money laundering is required by federal law. But yeah, there's no AI or anything involved, just a team of operators watching the cameras very carefully. At least out here. Las Vegas might have more advanced systems.
When I was working in the cage, we'd usually just track people for anti-money-laundering compliance with just a post-it note reading something like "Guy in red hat–cashed out $1300" and update the running total until it hit the threshold where we were required to get his ID.
China has some pretty impressive tech, but they have 1) the financial backing of the entire national government 2) no profit motive and 3) no privacy laws they have to comply with. What they can do is certainly not going to be viable for Kroger to use to track someone's salami purchases.
Remember, once created technology can be replicated on a cheap.
There are certainly commercials products with face recognition, e.g. from Avigilon or Verkada. Legal limitations are, certainly, a big part of the situation.
There were reports that it is virtually impossible to enter Manhattan without being identified against federal dataset but who knows how true those reports are and how efficient that is.
But I assume that things would only change for the worse. After all, there is a long history of people living in smaller settlements where everyone knew everyone, nothing new with total identity...
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on August 18, 2022, 07:16:44 AM
Out of personal curiosity, I've started keeping a list of uses of my smartphone that I'm noticing through their lack.
So far:
- Telephone / text message device (I call my wife every night when on the road)
- Phone book (Getting in touch with corporate IT to find a workaround to the above will be interesting, since our Canadian business and US business operate pretty independently except for oddballs like me)
- Camera
- Watch
- Alarm clock
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on August 18, 2022, 08:41:21 PM
Additions to my list of things I wish I had my phone for:
My non-smartphone can do all of the above.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on August 18, 2022, 07:16:44 AM
- Access to my corporate network (I have an RSA token app on my phone, required to log in)
- Note-taking device (e.g. I would have made a few notes about where I left my car at the airport, since I didn't fly out of my usual airport)
In addition, I have workarounds for the above two:
1. When I got rid of my smartphone, I switched my security token settings to text me the code instead of using an app.
2. If I need to make a note of something, then I just type it in a text message draft.
Quote from: Ned Weasel on August 18, 2022, 09:31:56 PM
Quote from: kkt on August 18, 2022, 01:35:27 PM
Some businesses train their clerks to ask for a cell phone number from all customers, because email is too easy to ignore.
You can say no. If they already have your money, they don't need your damn phone number.
The correct answer to the question "Could I get your phone number?" or "Could I get an e-mail address?" is "No thanks."
Quote from: ZLoth on August 21, 2022, 09:33:16 AM
From Daily Mail Online:
50 items you'd have to carry to replace your smartphoneQuoteSome couldn't live without one, while others see them as a curse of modern life.
But whatever your view of smartphones, without one in your pocket you would have to lug around the equivalent of 50 separate items.
Its technology replaces the need to carry a map, a camera, train timetables and a host of other essentials.
While a smartphone easily fits in the palm of a hand and weighs about 5oz, researchers estimate it would take two rucksacks to haul all the extra items around.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2ok)
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/10/11/23/453D664700000578-0-image-a-24_1507760721385.jpg)
I was today years old when I learned that Brits call bubble levels a "spirit level". That's a new one for me.
This seems appropriate for this thread. Look what came in last night's mail.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220824/6b1ec6603d7124b6f19490bd5ae4d925.jpg)
Not just smartphones, but the latest and greatest smartphone.
There are already a number of apps I've used often that don't work any longer on my iPhone 6. As I have no possibility of getting a newer phone until a bucketful of money lands in my backyard, I'm relegated to using those apps on my work phone (an iPhone XR) if I want the benefits from them.
Quote from: hbelkins on August 24, 2022, 03:48:15 PM
Not just smartphones, but the latest and greatest smartphone.
There are already a number of apps I've used often that don't work any longer on my iPhone 6. As I have no possibility of getting a newer phone until a bucketful of money lands in my backyard, I'm relegated to using those apps on my work phone (an iPhone XR) if I want the benefits from them.
There's a wide gulf between the iPhone 7 and the latest and greatest, some of which don't require a bucketful of money.
I replace my phones on a four-year cycle, and at this point my 2018 LG G7 is still serviceable for most uses. Only a few apps have performance issues that I can bypass with a little tweaking, the camera is lacking but is not my primary, but the lack of software support sucks but is to be expected of a company that has completely abandoned the smartphone market.
Quote from: abefroman329 on August 24, 2022, 03:55:03 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 24, 2022, 03:48:15 PM
Not just smartphones, but the latest and greatest smartphone.
There are already a number of apps I've used often that don't work any longer on my iPhone 6. As I have no possibility of getting a newer phone until a bucketful of money lands in my backyard, I'm relegated to using those apps on my work phone (an iPhone XR) if I want the benefits from them.
There's a wide gulf between the iPhone 7 and the latest and greatest, some of which don't require a bucketful of money.
I wonder what are the limiting apps. My phone is 5 model years and probably 4 physical years old. Android 9.
Some games are slower than I would want; battery is showing the age; but really it is still ok with me. I flirt with idea of replacement once in a while, but that's it ..
Quote from: SectorZ on August 24, 2022, 09:19:45 AMI was today years old when I learned that Brits call bubble levels a "spirit level". That's a new one for me.
It's not just the Brits--
spirit level is the term I grew up with in the Midwest.
Quote from: kalvado on August 24, 2022, 07:54:50 PMI wonder what are the limiting apps. My phone is 5 model years and probably 4 physical years old. Android 9.
Some games are slower than I would want; battery is showing the age; but really it is still ok with me. I flirt with idea of replacement once in a while, but that's it . . .
My current phone is eight years old or, to be precise, is a reconditioned like-for-like replacement that a repair shop supplied two years ago when the original phone would not boot after having the battery replaced. It still runs Android Marshmallow and shows "Your device is currently up to date" with version 24.91.5, applied in March 2017. Chrome will still update (I tried just now).
I suspect the battery will prove to be the real constraint on usable service life. Based on my experience with the failed battery repair, I would not attempt battery replacement (or hire it done) without a full backup of phone data. (I lost no texts or Evernote notes, but did lose several weeks' worth of photos and GPS logs--in principle they could be lifted off the memory chip, which is unencrypted, but the value of the stranded data does not justify the costs of recovery.) Many of the people I have talked to who have had their phone batteries replaced have come to feel the service was not worth it and purchased new phones within a year. I think it's time for me to get a new one, frankly, but I have struggled to summon enthusiasm for phone shopping.
I replaced my own Pixel 3 phone and my mother's Samsung S8 last November/December with Pixel 6 phones. Part of this had to do with firmware, as the Pixel phones have a three year cycle when they receive updates to the core operating system, and my workplace's IT requires a minimum level of iOS/Android version (Usually the current version and 1-2 previous major releases), and your mobile device is utilized as part of two-factor authentication when logging into the network. Part of this had to do with battery life as my Pixel 3's battery was lasting only two hours, and the battery replacement is considered extremely difficult (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C7qzUvePQQ). Part of this is the storage capacity as the model I obtained has 256GB of internal memory and no SD card slot. Part of this is support, as it helps when your mother has the same phone you are using when troubleshooting.
Because my plan includes unlimited data now, I'm taking full advantage of it when I'm driving. Since my mother and I both rarely drive now, the SiriusXM service will be cancelled at the end of September as the contract expired. The replacement will be service-included Apple Music, steaming music from the Plex server, and Radio Garden for streaming "local" stations from around the world (https://markholtz.info/radiogarden). Unless something changed recently, you can't stream Audible books, but you can download them.
One of my hangups with getting a new phone is the de-evolution in recent years, fueled by manufacturers blindly following Apple. I absolutely need expandable storage (so that I can have backups saved there to be easily retrieved in case of failure) and a headphone jack (so that I can connect with my car's stereo), but these features have been relegated to budget models that have awful cameras or underpowered chips.
Quote from: abefroman329 on August 24, 2022, 03:55:03 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 24, 2022, 03:48:15 PM
Not just smartphones, but the latest and greatest smartphone.
There are already a number of apps I've used often that don't work any longer on my iPhone 6. As I have no possibility of getting a newer phone until a bucketful of money lands in my backyard, I'm relegated to using those apps on my work phone (an iPhone XR) if I want the benefits from them.
There's a wide gulf between the iPhone 7 and the latest and greatest, some of which don't require a bucketful of money.
Indeed, there are iPhones out there that arent exorbitant (by Apple standards, of course). I have an iPhone 7 Plus, 5+ years old, that still runs well and has had no problems with software updates. On paper, anyway, the iPhone SE has the same or better capabilities as the 7 Plus, and is much less than the 13 or 14. If/when I do upgrade, it may be to the SE.
Quote from: Bruce on August 25, 2022, 04:29:53 AMOne of my hangups with getting a new phone is the de-evolution in recent years, fueled by manufacturers blindly following Apple. I absolutely need expandable storage (so that I can have backups saved there to be easily retrieved in case of failure) and a headphone jack (so that I can connect with my car's stereo), but these features have been relegated to budget models that have awful cameras or underpowered chips.
For the lack of a headphone jack, you can use a Bluetooth adapter such as this small one (https://amzn.to/3wure84) I purchased it so that I could turn a hotel room radio into a music player.
As for the lack of a SD storage card, one thing that I noticed is that if the streaming service (HBO Max, Disney+, Criterion) has a download-for-offline-viewing option, that download will be only to the
phone main storage. Storage to removable media just isn't allowed. Again, a good reason why I got a phone with 256GB of internal storage.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on September 27, 2021, 07:39:21 PM
And, since my office is in Montréal while I live in Connecticut....is there a non-smartphone way to use the ArriveCan app?
Yes. I did it last month. You just have to be able to scan your COVID vaccine card, and then once you set your time and place for arrival, you can print what you need out on paper. (And you can do more than one person at a time.) We were close to our arrival time, and they didn't ask for our paper, apparently just looked us up.
Quote from: kalvado on August 24, 2022, 07:54:50 PM
I wonder what are the limiting apps. My phone is 5 model years and probably 4 physical years old. Android 9.
Some games are slower than I would want; battery is showing the age; but really it is still ok with me. I flirt with idea of replacement once in a while, but that's it ..
In my case, it's the battery that drives my phone replacement cycle.
I originally made the jump from iPhone to Android several years ago, when I got frustrated that my iPhone battery would no longer last through a simple run to the grocery store. The phone was otherwise fine for my needs; I just wanted to easily replace the battery.
Sadly, that's not even an option for most Android phones anymore.
Smartphone is a defacto requirement if you are looking for a job and recruiters need to reach you right away. Plus if you want to enter the offices in some places you need to download a company issued app as a pass.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on August 25, 2022, 09:43:27 AM
Quote from: kalvado on August 24, 2022, 07:54:50 PM
I wonder what are the limiting apps. My phone is 5 model years and probably 4 physical years old. Android 9.
Some games are slower than I would want; battery is showing the age; but really it is still ok with me. I flirt with idea of replacement once in a while, but that's it ..
In my case, it's the battery that drives my phone replacement cycle.
I originally made the jump from iPhone to Android several years ago, when I got frustrated that my iPhone battery would no longer last through a simple run to the grocery store. The phone was otherwise fine for my needs; I just wanted to easily replace the battery.
Sadly, that's not even an option for most Android phones anymore.
I had my iPhone X battery replaced earlier this year by a third-party store at the mall. While I might have been able to find instructions online to do it myself, I don't trust my fingers to handle those tiny little screws. I'd have to look through my e-mail to find the cost, but it was less than $100 and it has worked just fine since then. I believe the repair is $69 at an Apple Store, but at the time the two nearby locations were not open normal hours due to COVID protocols, and the place I went is a more convenient location anyway.
Even if the aftermarket battery only lasts two years, it's still cheaper than buying a new phone when my current one otherwise works just fine for my needs.
Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2022, 09:08:47 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on August 18, 2022, 08:41:21 PM
Additions to my list of things I wish I had my phone for:
My non-smartphone can do all of the above.
Unless things have really changed, I doubt that a non-smartphone would have the calendaring features I require (including sending meeting invitations, checking other peoples' availability....)
And as for a calculator....do non-smartphones have the full array of trig and statistical functions available on smartphone apps?
Obviously, there are alternatives for almost everything I use my smartphone for. Had my trip been longer, a non-smartphone with a local SIM card might have been a partial solution to the bind I was in. Had my battery failed before I left home, I could have made non-smartphone arrangements to work around my dependence on the gadget. However, discovering its failure just as I was heading into an airport to depart for a short international trip, created a unique circumstance to appreciate just how much utility I get out of my smartphone without really thinking of it.
Quote from: kphoger on August 24, 2022, 09:08:47 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on August 18, 2022, 08:41:21 PM
- Access to my corporate network (I have an RSA token app on my phone, required to log in)
- Note-taking device (e.g. I would have made a few notes about where I left my car at the airport, since I didn't fly out of my usual airport)
In addition, I have workarounds for the above two:
1. When I got rid of my smartphone, I switched my security token settings to text me the code instead of using an app.
2. If I need to make a note of something, then I just type it in a text message draft.
[/quote]
For corporate network access, we used to have the option to get physical RSA token fobs. I ended up doing a Teams call via my personal laptop with the corporate help desk (needed a way to confirm my identity; showing my face and an ID over a cam was sufficient) to get a temporary code to tide me over until I got a new smartphone.
Looks like we now have a policy that requires employees needing access to the corporate network from outside a domestic office to have smartphones because of our use of the token app, with the company providing smartphones for those employees that need them / don't want to use personal devices for that purpose.
I'd hate to use a non-smartphone 12-key keypad for note-taking. The soft keyboards on smartphones are bad enough. I wished I had brought pen and paper with me on my trip, but I've gotten out of the habit of carrying them because my smartphone is almost always there and more convenient for that purpose.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 25, 2022, 09:56:34 AMI had my iPhone X battery replaced earlier this year by a third-party store at the mall.
I know that battery replacement is still doable, especially with technical assistance. However, my ideal would be to quickly pop open cover of the phone, and swap batteries, with a minimum of effort. Not only did I want to do this to prolong the time I could use an otherwise perfectly suitable device, but for a time it's how I got by as a business traveler without being too tethered to chargers, or needing to lug around an external powerbank. I'd travel with a couple of extra phone batteries, and on longer days when spending extended time away from a charger (e.g. a long day of meetings, followed by an evening/nighttime flight home), I'd just quickly swap batteries when needed.
Fundamentally, I'm a lazy person who likes gadgets, and who is fortunate to have disposable income. If I were buying ultra-high-end phones, I probably would make use of such battery replacement services. But one of the reasons I like Google Pixel phones is that the recent models have been at a sweet-spot in terms of functionality and price. At their price point, I can live with a 2-year upgrade cycle (although I'd be happier with at least a 3-year cycle) if it means I don't have to go through the hassle of finding a reputable service to do battery swaps.
When I was doing my emergency phone-shopping last week, I did briefly consider going back to iPhone partly for family reasons, partly because I'm now using a Macbook as my personal laptop....but the price difference was too great to justify. I also took a very quick look at other Android phones, and the cost to get the functionality I need, along with the threat of OEM or cell phone provider crapware annoying me....it didn't take long before I put in the order with Google for a new Pixel.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 24, 2022, 09:26:41 AM
This seems appropriate for this thread. Look what came in last night's mail.
I forget how long it's been since we received a physical phone directory.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on August 25, 2022, 10:01:52 AM
And as for a calculator....do non-smartphones have the full array of trig and statistical functions available on smartphone apps?
Just curious, why would you use trig functions on a phone?
Contractor doing quick estimate in the field may be the only thing that comes to mind, and even then there are books and tables which have to be used.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on August 25, 2022, 05:03:23 AM
Quote from: abefroman329 on August 24, 2022, 03:55:03 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 24, 2022, 03:48:15 PM
Not just smartphones, but the latest and greatest smartphone.
There are already a number of apps I've used often that don't work any longer on my iPhone 6. As I have no possibility of getting a newer phone until a bucketful of money lands in my backyard, I'm relegated to using those apps on my work phone (an iPhone XR) if I want the benefits from them.
There's a wide gulf between the iPhone 7 and the latest and greatest, some of which don't require a bucketful of money.
Indeed, there are iPhones out there that arent exorbitant (by Apple standards, of course). I have an iPhone 7 Plus, 5+ years old, that still runs well and has had no problems with software updates. On paper, anyway, the iPhone SE has the same or better capabilities as the 7 Plus, and is much less than the 13 or 14. If/when I do upgrade, it may be to the SE.
Back in the days of contracts with the mobile phone providers, we'd wait for the newest model to be released and then buy what was now the second-newest model for free or $0.01.
Now we pay, at most, $20-25 per month for a phone that's one or two model years old, and most of that money is covered with incentives from Verizon.
Quote from: kalvado on August 25, 2022, 10:37:32 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on August 25, 2022, 10:01:52 AM
And as for a calculator....do non-smartphones have the full array of trig and statistical functions available on smartphone apps?
Just curious, why would you use trig functions on a phone?
Contractor doing quick estimate in the field may be the only thing that comes to mind, and even then there are books and tables which have to be used.
My job these days involves building/maintaining a financial situation of a multinational property-casualty insurer.
Trig functions sometimes come in handy when smell-testing the results of certain modules. While it's no big deal to pop open a blank Excel workbook and do the math, it's sometimes more convenient to grab a calculator (or smartphone with a calculator app, since I don't carry a discrete calculator anymore).
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on August 25, 2022, 11:44:08 AM
Quote from: kalvado on August 25, 2022, 10:37:32 AM
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on August 25, 2022, 10:01:52 AM
And as for a calculator....do non-smartphones have the full array of trig and statistical functions available on smartphone apps?
Just curious, why would you use trig functions on a phone?
Contractor doing quick estimate in the field may be the only thing that comes to mind, and even then there are books and tables which have to be used.
My job these days involves building/maintaining a financial situation of a multinational property-casualty insurer.
Trig functions sometimes come in handy when smell-testing the results of certain modules. While it's no big deal to pop open a blank Excel workbook and do the math, it's sometimes more convenient to grab a calculator (or smartphone with a calculator app, since I don't carry a discrete calculator anymore).
If you turn your iPhone's calculator to landscape mode, it can perform some trig functions (sin/cos/tan) but no specific statistical functions.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was an Android app which predated that feature on iOS...
While we're talking about smartphones, does anybody have any idea why T-mobile hates Nebraska?
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on August 25, 2022, 01:42:15 PM
While we're talking about smartphones, does anybody have any idea why T-mobile hates Nebraska?
I've looked it up myself. There are various articles available via Google search that can explain it much better than I can. If you don't want a Google search, there's https://blog.solidsignal.com/tutorials/t-mobile-doesnt-have-5g-in-nebraska-heres-why/
Do keep in mind that Nebraska's population is very lopsided toward the eastern part of the state, where there is coverage.
Quote from: ZLoth on August 25, 2022, 08:16:24 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 25, 2022, 04:29:53 AMOne of my hangups with getting a new phone is the de-evolution in recent years, fueled by manufacturers blindly following Apple. I absolutely need expandable storage (so that I can have backups saved there to be easily retrieved in case of failure) and a headphone jack (so that I can connect with my car's stereo), but these features have been relegated to budget models that have awful cameras or underpowered chips.
For the lack of a headphone jack, you can use a Bluetooth adapter such as this small one (https://amzn.to/3wure84) I purchased it so that I could turn a hotel room radio into a music player.
As for the lack of a SD storage card, one thing that I noticed is that if the streaming service (HBO Max, Disney+, Criterion) has a download-for-offline-viewing option, that download will be only to the phone main storage. Storage to removable media just isn't allowed. Again, a good reason why I got a phone with 256GB of internal storage.
Sadly that solution would not be a good fit for my use, since I find Bluetooth to be a battery hog when playing media. And I'd rather have local storage of my music so that I can go hike with my headphones without having to worry about Spotify connectivity.
Quote from: Bruce on August 26, 2022, 04:44:52 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on August 25, 2022, 08:16:24 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 25, 2022, 04:29:53 AMOne of my hangups with getting a new phone is the de-evolution in recent years, fueled by manufacturers blindly following Apple. I absolutely need expandable storage (so that I can have backups saved there to be easily retrieved in case of failure) and a headphone jack (so that I can connect with my car's stereo), but these features have been relegated to budget models that have awful cameras or underpowered chips.
For the lack of a headphone jack, you can use a Bluetooth adapter such as this small one (https://amzn.to/3wure84) I purchased it so that I could turn a hotel room radio into a music player.
As for the lack of a SD storage card, one thing that I noticed is that if the streaming service (HBO Max, Disney+, Criterion) has a download-for-offline-viewing option, that download will be only to the phone main storage. Storage to removable media just isn't allowed. Again, a good reason why I got a phone with 256GB of internal storage.
Sadly that solution would not be a good fit for my use, since I find Bluetooth to be a battery hog when playing media. And I'd rather have local storage of my music so that I can go hike with my headphones without having to worry about Spotify connectivity.
512GB iPhone 11, and you can get the 3mm-to-lightning connector to run wired headphones in the lightning port. I've done both hiking/walking with headphones and even used it in an aux port in a stereo system my father left behind in my garage.
Not for everybody, but it seems like that combo of solutions would be something that could work for your needs.
Quote from: bing101 on August 25, 2022, 09:52:54 AM
Smartphone is a defacto requirement if you are looking for a job and recruiters need to reach you right away.
Why is a smartphone required for that? At my work, people just call or text someone who's looking for a job.
Quote from: MikeTheActuary on August 25, 2022, 10:01:52 AM
Looks like we now have a policy that requires employees needing access to the corporate network from outside a domestic office to have smartphones because of our use of the token app, with the company providing smartphones for those employees that need them / don't want to use personal devices for that purpose.
At my job, field techs are required to have a smartphone in order to run the programs required for their job. Well, I suppose they could theoretically use a laptop and just connect it to Wi-Fi every time or use their non-smartphone as a hotspot or something, but let's get real. I believe a couple of our regional offices have smartphones for lease to field techs, but not all of them do.
Quote from: Bruce on August 26, 2022, 04:44:52 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on August 25, 2022, 08:16:24 AMAs for the lack of a SD storage card, one thing that I noticed is that if the streaming service (HBO Max, Disney+, Criterion) has a download-for-offline-viewing option, that download will be only to the phone main storage. Storage to removable media just isn't allowed. Again, a good reason why I got a phone with 256GB of internal storage.
Sadly that solution would not be a good fit for my use, since I find Bluetooth to be a battery hog when playing media. And I'd rather have local storage of my music so that I can go hike with my headphones without having to worry about Spotify connectivity.
Note that HBO Max, Disney+, and Criterion are all video streaming services that I'm subscribed to. Both Apple Music (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204839) and Amazon Music (https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=GMNHEFFY6TU8PV4U) have a offline download option, but I don't know if the main phone memory limitation applies. I personally have a Plex Media Server (https://markholtz.info/plex), and I can specify a download location to either main phone memory or a SD card (I have a tablet also).
Quote from: SectorZ on August 26, 2022, 08:37:57 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 26, 2022, 04:44:52 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on August 25, 2022, 08:16:24 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 25, 2022, 04:29:53 AMOne of my hangups with getting a new phone is the de-evolution in recent years, fueled by manufacturers blindly following Apple. I absolutely need expandable storage (so that I can have backups saved there to be easily retrieved in case of failure) and a headphone jack (so that I can connect with my car's stereo), but these features have been relegated to budget models that have awful cameras or underpowered chips.
For the lack of a headphone jack, you can use a Bluetooth adapter such as this small one (https://amzn.to/3wure84) I purchased it so that I could turn a hotel room radio into a music player.
As for the lack of a SD storage card, one thing that I noticed is that if the streaming service (HBO Max, Disney+, Criterion) has a download-for-offline-viewing option, that download will be only to the phone main storage. Storage to removable media just isn't allowed. Again, a good reason why I got a phone with 256GB of internal storage.
Sadly that solution would not be a good fit for my use, since I find Bluetooth to be a battery hog when playing media. And I'd rather have local storage of my music so that I can go hike with my headphones without having to worry about Spotify connectivity.
512GB iPhone 11, and you can get the 3mm-to-lightning connector to run wired headphones in the lightning port. I've done both hiking/walking with headphones and even used it in an aux port in a stereo system my father left behind in my garage.
Not for everybody, but it seems like that combo of solutions would be something that could work for your needs.
But then I wouldn't be able to charge my device while playing media in the car. A wireless charger would run too hot, so that's also out.
Quote from: Bruce on August 26, 2022, 05:26:39 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on August 26, 2022, 08:37:57 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 26, 2022, 04:44:52 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on August 25, 2022, 08:16:24 AM
Quote from: Bruce on August 25, 2022, 04:29:53 AMOne of my hangups with getting a new phone is the de-evolution in recent years, fueled by manufacturers blindly following Apple. I absolutely need expandable storage (so that I can have backups saved there to be easily retrieved in case of failure) and a headphone jack (so that I can connect with my car's stereo), but these features have been relegated to budget models that have awful cameras or underpowered chips.
For the lack of a headphone jack, you can use a Bluetooth adapter such as this small one (https://amzn.to/3wure84) I purchased it so that I could turn a hotel room radio into a music player.
As for the lack of a SD storage card, one thing that I noticed is that if the streaming service (HBO Max, Disney+, Criterion) has a download-for-offline-viewing option, that download will be only to the phone main storage. Storage to removable media just isn't allowed. Again, a good reason why I got a phone with 256GB of internal storage.
Sadly that solution would not be a good fit for my use, since I find Bluetooth to be a battery hog when playing media. And I'd rather have local storage of my music so that I can go hike with my headphones without having to worry about Spotify connectivity.
512GB iPhone 11, and you can get the 3mm-to-lightning connector to run wired headphones in the lightning port. I've done both hiking/walking with headphones and even used it in an aux port in a stereo system my father left behind in my garage.
Not for everybody, but it seems like that combo of solutions would be something that could work for your needs.
But then I wouldn't be able to charge my device while playing media in the car. A wireless charger would run too hot, so that's also out.
https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Female-Headphone-Converter-Samsung/dp/B085XQYJFV
https://www.amazon.com/Belkin-Charge-Rockstar-Adapter-Charging/dp/B074WDWVX1
Until yesterday, there were two ways to enter my apartment building:
(1) Key fob
(2) A special smartphone app called ButterflyMX that can also be used to buzz visitors into the building
Well, the management company got rid of (1) as an option yesterday. Apparently, if you live here, and you don't own a smartphone, you can just go commit a physical impossibility.
Oh, and if you're wondering if the new system broke already: Why yes, yes it did.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 26, 2023, 11:45:57 AM
Until yesterday, there were two ways to enter my apartment building:
(1) Key fob
(2) A special smartphone app called ButterflyMX that can also be used to buzz visitors into the building
Well, the management company got rid of (1) as an option yesterday. Apparently, if you live here, and you don't own a smartphone, you can just go commit a physical impossibility.
Oh, and if you're wondering if the new system broke already: Why yes, yes it did.
A quote from an e-mail sent today by HR for a new time reporting system:
Quote
Effective 5/8, only One Login Protect will be available for use, DUO will be removed. This program requires a smart phone. If you do not have access to a smart phone, you will need to call RF Customer Service at xxx-xxx-xxxx. HR cannot assist on an alternative method of log in.
And now old-style 'flip' phones are becoming popular again with the younger crowd, an older friend of mine told me a few days ago that his Android phone just died and that he'll likely be going with a flip phone because he cannot justify the $1.4K dost of a replacement android phone. I'm also wondering how this will mesh with major sports stadia that have gone to all-smartphone based game ticketing.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on April 26, 2023, 08:40:24 PM
And now old-style 'flip' phones are becoming popular again with the younger crowd, an older friend of mine told me a few days ago that his Android phone just died and that he'll likely be going with a flip phone because he cannot justify the $1.4K dost of a replacement android phone. I'm also wondering how this will mesh with major sports stadia that have gone to all-smartphone based game ticketing.
Mike
If you have a home computer with a printer or have use of one, you can usually print out the barcode/QR code if you need to.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 26, 2023, 11:45:57 AM
Until yesterday, there were two ways to enter my apartment building:
(1) Key fob
(2) A special smartphone app called ButterflyMX that can also be used to buzz visitors into the building
Well, the management company got rid of (1) as an option yesterday. Apparently, if you live here, and you don't own a smartphone, you can just go commit a physical impossibility.
Oh, and if you're wondering if the new system broke already: Why yes, yes it did.
At least around here, all of the apartment buildings that I know of still have mechanical keys.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on April 26, 2023, 08:40:24 PM
And now old-style 'flip' phones are becoming popular again with the younger crowd, an older friend of mine told me a few days ago that his Android phone just died and that he'll likely be going with a flip phone because he cannot justify the $1.4K dost of a replacement android phone. I'm also wondering how this will mesh with major sports stadia that have gone to all-smartphone based game ticketing.
Mike
$1.4k seems like a hell of a phone...
Quote from: kalvado on April 26, 2023, 09:22:14 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on April 26, 2023, 08:40:24 PM
And now old-style 'flip' phones are becoming popular again with the younger crowd, an older friend of mine told me a few days ago that his Android phone just died and that he'll likely be going with a flip phone because he cannot justify the $1.4K dost of a replacement android phone. I'm also wondering how this will mesh with major sports stadia that have gone to all-smartphone based game ticketing.
Mike
$1.4k seems like a hell of a phone...
That's why you should always trade in your phones the second you think it's nearing end of life. I had a Samsung S20 that was working just fine, but Verizon had a deal where they'd give you a free Samsung S23 if you traded in your old phone. So, I got a $1,200 phone for free. Had I waited and had my previous phone die, I would be stuck with a big payment if I wanted the same phone.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 26, 2023, 09:32:56 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 26, 2023, 09:22:14 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on April 26, 2023, 08:40:24 PM
And now old-style 'flip' phones are becoming popular again with the younger crowd, an older friend of mine told me a few days ago that his Android phone just died and that he'll likely be going with a flip phone because he cannot justify the $1.4K dost of a replacement android phone. I'm also wondering how this will mesh with major sports stadia that have gone to all-smartphone based game ticketing.
Mike
$1.4k seems like a hell of a phone...
That's why you should always trade in your phones the second you think it's nearing end of life. I had a Samsung S20 that was working just fine, but Verizon had a deal where they'd give you a free Samsung S23 if you traded in your old phone. So, I got a $1,200 phone for free. Had I waited and had my previous phone die, I would be stuck with a big payment if I wanted the same phone.
Tin can on a string has never sounded so appealing.
I don't understand the need to spend $1200 on a phone just because it's the latest greatest iPhone or Samsung. I use Total by Verizon Prepaid (Used to be Total Wireless) as it was the best deal for the plan. 4 lines for $100/month unlimited talk and text, 100GB shared data. Now that Total Wireless was taken over by Verizon, my plan is considered a legacy plan and I'm grandfathered in, so if I ever wanted to remove a line or change my plan I'd have to go with a new more expensive plan with less shared data. We never come close to using 100GB anyway. Anyway, we've always bought our phones up front and never paid more than $200 for them and they work just fine. My current phone is a Moto Stylus 5G that I've had for a little over a year and is the best phone I've had. Battery lasts all day on one charge, even when I'm on it all day if I'm bored all day. I'll never pay more than a couple hundred for a phone, even the "free" phones still are going to cost you in one way or another.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 26, 2023, 11:45:57 AM
Until yesterday, there were two ways to enter my apartment building:
(1) Key fob
(2) A special smartphone app called ButterflyMX that can also be used to buzz visitors into the building
Well, the management company got rid of (1) as an option yesterday. Apparently, if you live here, and you don't own a smartphone, you can just go commit a physical impossibility.
Oh, and if you're wondering if the new system broke already: Why yes, yes it did.
Stupid management decision. If I rented there, I'd be asking my local tenant's rights organization if my apartment's management could really require me to buy an expensive smart phone in order to have access to my apartment.
Quote from: mgk920 on April 26, 2023, 08:40:24 PMAnd now old-style 'flip' phones are becoming popular again with the younger crowd, an older friend of mine told me a few days ago that his Android phone just died and that he'll likely be going with a flip phone because he cannot justify the $1.4K dost of a replacement android phone.
Wait, what???? Now, I don't touch the iPhones, but Androids? To be fair, I checked Verizon Wireless and a Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra with 256GB of storage is $1200 or 512GB of storage for $1380. It's about $200 cheaper at Amazon, but then again, it's a top of the line phone. The fold phones are even more expensive, and I'm not seeing the appeal of them. Having said that, there are lower-cost alternatives out there, plus promotions. It just depends on how much onboard storage there is, how powerful the processor is, and if it supports the latest version of the Android OS. I had to assist a neighbor on their Android phone, and their old phone had only enough memory to install 3-4 apps beyond the built-in ones, and a slow processor.
Therein lies the rub.... internal storage space. I like to store and playback audiobooks on my phone, plus I'm looking forward to traveling in the near future, so I want to download some movies to watch while on a three hour flight. Because of the restrictions imposed by some of the apps, you can only download the content to internal storage space.... a microSD card isn't supported if your phone even supports one. I'm hoping that we see increased storage capacities when the Pixel 8s comes out.
But, then again, I live and die by my Android phone. It is my professional organizer, my login security device, my remote for my garage door and security system, my phone book, my navigation device, my media player for when I'm on the go, and, yes, my pager for when it's my turn for OnCall.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 26, 2023, 09:32:56 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 26, 2023, 09:22:14 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on April 26, 2023, 08:40:24 PM
And now old-style 'flip' phones are becoming popular again with the younger crowd, an older friend of mine told me a few days ago that his Android phone just died and that he'll likely be going with a flip phone because he cannot justify the $1.4K dost of a replacement android phone. I'm also wondering how this will mesh with major sports stadia that have gone to all-smartphone based game ticketing.
Mike
$1.4k seems like a hell of a phone...
That's why you should always trade in your phones the second you think it's nearing end of life. I had a Samsung S20 that was working just fine, but Verizon had a deal where they'd give you a free Samsung S23 if you traded in your old phone. So, I got a $1,200 phone for free. Had I waited and had my previous phone die, I would be stuck with a big payment if I wanted the same phone.
My iPhone has been going strong for 6 1/2 years with no signs of failing other than maximum battery capacity. I bought it for about $400 because it wasn't the newest version when I bought it.
Quote from: tchafe1978 on April 26, 2023, 10:00:30 PM
I'll never pay more than a couple hundred for a phone, even the "free" phones still are going to cost you in one way or another.
I'll bite. How is my free Samsung S23+ going to cost me?
Quote from: 1 on April 27, 2023, 06:42:11 AMMy iPhone has been going strong for 6 1/2 years with no signs of failing other than maximum battery capacity. I bought it for about $400 because it wasn't the newest version when I bought it.
My Pixel 3, near the end of it's life in 2019, was barely holding a charge for more than about 90 minutes. The battery replacement procedure is not easy for a Pixel 3, so I elected to wait until the Pixel 6 Pro was ready for order. The two phones were ordered in early November when they became available for ordered.... and didn't arrive until Christmas.
The big factors for me in phone replacement is if it can use the latest version of Android OS, and battery life. My employer enforces a minimum Android version for security reasons.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 27, 2023, 09:05:59 AM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on April 26, 2023, 10:00:30 PM
I'll never pay more than a couple hundred for a phone, even the "free" phones still are going to cost you in one way or another.
I'll bite. How is my free Samsung S23+ going to cost me?
How much do you pay for the plan? What are the strings, like 2 year contract?
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 09:17:33 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 27, 2023, 09:05:59 AM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on April 26, 2023, 10:00:30 PM
I'll never pay more than a couple hundred for a phone, even the "free" phones still are going to cost you in one way or another.
I'll bite. How is my free Samsung S23+ going to cost me?
How much do you pay for the plan? What are the strings, like 2 year contract?
We're in a family plan with my wife's parents and brother and sister-in-law. I pay them $100 a month for my wife and me. I don't know the terms of the contract alas.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 27, 2023, 09:59:27 AM
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 09:17:33 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 27, 2023, 09:05:59 AM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on April 26, 2023, 10:00:30 PM
I'll never pay more than a couple hundred for a phone, even the "free" phones still are going to cost you in one way or another.
I'll bite. How is my free Samsung S23+ going to cost me?
How much do you pay for the plan? What are the strings, like 2 year contract?
We're in a family plan with my wife's parents and brother and sister-in-law. I pay them $100 a month for my wife and me. I don't know the terms of the contract alas.
My plan was $30, give or take. So you may assume the difference of $20 went towards your phone discount. And I bet you signed up for 2 years of service when you got your phone - that's $500.
Of course there is a lot of variables, like you don't want to change your plan and would do same thing regardless. But basic idea of company loosing money on these promotions is unreasonable. They will make the profit of you, one way or the other. My impression is that us cellular business model is overpriced service, everything else is icing on the cake.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 27, 2023, 09:05:59 AM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on April 26, 2023, 10:00:30 PM
I'll never pay more than a couple hundred for a phone, even the "free" phones still are going to cost you in one way or another.
I'll bite. How is my free Samsung S23+ going to cost me?
You still pay for the "free" phone by paying more for your plan. It's probably buried in the fine print of the terms somewhere, but either part of your monthly payment for your plan is a payment towards your phone, or you have a contract for 2 years or whatever. The carriers will recoup the cost of the phone one way or another. My daughther wanted a new iPhone last year apart from the ones that were available from Total Wireless. She went on her own plan through Verizon. Part of her monthly plan payment is a payment towards the phone. Nothing is ever free.
Quote from: tchafe1978 on April 27, 2023, 10:17:55 AM
... or you have a contract for 2 years or whatever.
Which only costs you if you weren't already planning to use their service for another two years anyway. But, wait, it doesn't really cost you because, even if you had been planning to switch carriers, you still would have signed a new contract with that other carrier instead.
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 10:23:22 AM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on April 27, 2023, 10:17:55 AM
... or you have a contract for 2 years or whatever.
Which only costs you if you weren't already planning to use their service for another two years anyway.
When my dad died, my mom tried to get Sprint to change the principal name on the account. Sprint insisted that he be there (which was impossible, since he was dead), so my mom switched from Sprint to Cingular. This was clearly not planned in advance. I don't believe there was a contract at this time, but if there was one, it would have been a larger problem.
Quote from: 1 on April 27, 2023, 10:25:15 AM
When my dad died, my mom tried to get Sprint to change the principal name on the account. Sprint insisted that he be there (which was impossible, since he was dead), so my mom switched from Sprint to Cingular. This was clearly not planned in advance. I don't believe there was a contract at this time, but if there was one, it would have been a larger problem.
It's amazing how some of the seemingly simplest things to do after someone dies can end up being most difficult. When my grandmother died, my mom was the executor. Of everything she had to do, the biggest ordeal was canceling my grandma's JC Penney card.
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 10:43:55 AM
Quote from: 1 on April 27, 2023, 10:25:15 AM
When my dad died, my mom tried to get Sprint to change the principal name on the account. Sprint insisted that he be there (which was impossible, since he was dead), so my mom switched from Sprint to Cingular. This was clearly not planned in advance. I don't believe there was a contract at this time, but if there was one, it would have been a larger problem.
It's amazing how some of the seemingly simplest things to do after someone dies can end up being most difficult. When my grandmother died, my mom was the executor. Of everything she had to do, the biggest ordeal was canceling my grandma's JC Penney card.
When my father died, my mother got far more copies of the death certificate than she thought she'd need, and she was glad she did–she says they helped a lot with things like dealing with his mobile phone service and other such things.
Some things were still in my grandfather's name, and he'd died 25 years earlier. But even dealing with that stuff was easier than the darned JC Penney card.
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 10:23:22 AM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on April 27, 2023, 10:17:55 AM
... or you have a contract for 2 years or whatever.
Which only costs you if you weren't already planning to use their service for another two years anyway. But, wait, it doesn't really cost you because, even if you had been planning to switch carriers, you still would have signed a new contract with that other carrier instead.
And, because of some of the features of the phone, I will be saving money over what I would have had to spend with my previous phone. I also bet the $30 plans are before taxes, so you're really paying more than that per month. $50 per person all in is quite reasonable. This obviously includes unlimited everything.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 27, 2023, 10:52:54 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 10:23:22 AM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on April 27, 2023, 10:17:55 AM
... or you have a contract for 2 years or whatever.
Which only costs you if you weren't already planning to use their service for another two years anyway. But, wait, it doesn't really cost you because, even if you had been planning to switch carriers, you still would have signed a new contract with that other carrier instead.
And, because of some of the features of the phone, I will be saving money over what I would have had to spend with my previous phone. I also bet the $30 plans are before taxes, so you're really paying more than that per month. $50 per person all in is quite reasonable. This obviously includes unlimited everything.
State taxes are a separate thing. You will not get "rate and nothing else" in NY.
There may be legacy cheaper plans, but I just checked and mainstream providers doing phone discount start with 50+tax here.
Doesn't mean you get a bad deal overall, but you definitely pay more to get more than I do. Nothing wrong with that overall.
Quote from: ZLoth on April 27, 2023, 04:26:09 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on April 26, 2023, 08:40:24 PM
And now old-style 'flip' phones are becoming popular again with the younger crowd, an older friend of mine told me a few days ago that his Android phone just died and that he'll likely be going with a flip phone because he cannot justify the $1.4K dost of a replacement android phone.
Wait, what???? Now, I don't touch the iPhones, but Androids? To be fair, I checked Verizon Wireless and a Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra with 256GB of storage is $1200 or 512GB of storage for $1380. It's about $200 cheaper at Amazon, but then again, it's a top of the line phone. The fold phones are even more expensive, and I'm not seeing the appeal of them. Having said that, there are lower-cost alternatives out there, plus promotions.
Moto G phones retail for under $200, as do a couple of Galaxy models.
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 11:42:41 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on April 27, 2023, 04:26:09 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on April 26, 2023, 08:40:24 PM
And now old-style 'flip' phones are becoming popular again with the younger crowd, an older friend of mine told me a few days ago that his Android phone just died and that he'll likely be going with a flip phone because he cannot justify the $1.4K dost of a replacement android phone.
Wait, what???? Now, I don't touch the iPhones, but Androids? To be fair, I checked Verizon Wireless and a Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra with 256GB of storage is $1200 or 512GB of storage for $1380. It's about $200 cheaper at Amazon, but then again, it's a top of the line phone. The fold phones are even more expensive, and I'm not seeing the appeal of them. Having said that, there are lower-cost alternatives out there, plus promotions.
Moto G phones retail for under $200, as do a couple of Galaxy models.
A matter of personal choice.
Top line iPhone, latest Galaxy S, BMW, Tesla, Mercedes is top of the line option.
More modest Galaxy A5x, Moto, maybe Pixel, Subaru, Honda is step below but pretty functional. There is reduced competition in this group of phones as US doesn't like Xiaomi, Huawei or OnePlus.
Galaxy A2x or A1x, infiniti, Ford are closer to bottom of the barrel.
I can understand not going for last option if possible, but using top of the line is definitely an indication of some disposable income.
Then you have the flip side. My wife could get a new phone, but she likes her first-generation iPhone SE because of its small size and she therefore wants to hold onto it as long as possible. Even the so-called "mini" models for the iPhone 12 and 13 are bigger than her old SE. It still works fine (she had the battery replaced once), so as long as there are no security issues ....
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 10:51:39 AMSome things were still in my grandfather's name
My grandmother left a lot of things in her husband's name after he passed. Partly because she didn't want to advertise to the world that she was a woman who lived alone, partly because she used to get a kick out of telling telemarketers "he's dead" when they'd call and ask to speak with him.
I'd also add that replacing the battery to extend usable service life is a pretty hit-and-miss strategy with significant downside risk. When I tried it in 2020 with my last phone, a Motorola Droid Turbo that was then six years old, the shop bricked the old phone and insisted I accept a remanufactured replacement, which started having battery life issues after less than a year. I replaced it with a Pixel 7 earlier this year and, frankly, that was about a year later than I should have, because unplanned shutdowns due to the battery greatly limited the use I could get out of it.
I learned two lessons:
* If you take a phone in for repair for any reason, be prepared for it to come back as a brick.
* No-one looks out for the consumer in terms of battery life on remanufactured phones. If you are forced to accept one as a result of a failed battery replacement, expect battery life to be just as bad as on the old phone.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 27, 2023, 12:59:22 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 10:51:39 AM
Some things were still in my grandfather's name
My grandmother left a lot of things in her husband's name after he passed. Partly because she didn't want to advertise to the world that she was a woman who lived alone, partly because she used to get a kick out of telling telemarketers "he's dead" when they'd call and ask to speak with him.
In my grandparents' case, it was that my grandfather was the one who handled all the finances, so my grandmother didn't know anything. When he died, she just left everything as it was, to the extent she could.
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 10:43:55 AM
Quote from: 1 on April 27, 2023, 10:25:15 AM
When my dad died, my mom tried to get Sprint to change the principal name on the account. Sprint insisted that he be there (which was impossible, since he was dead), so my mom switched from Sprint to Cingular. This was clearly not planned in advance. I don't believe there was a contract at this time, but if there was one, it would have been a larger problem.
It's amazing how some of the seemingly simplest things to do after someone dies can end up being most difficult. When my grandmother died, my mom was the executor. Of everything she had to do, the biggest ordeal was canceling my grandma's JC Penney card.
Ditto my mom when my dad died dealing with Comcast. When the goober on the phone asked to speak with him after already being told he was dead. my mother offered to dig him up so they could speak to him.
Nothing else was remotely so difficult despite being much more important.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 27, 2023, 01:04:28 PM
* No-one looks out for the consumer in terms of battery life on remanufactured phones. If you are forced to accept one as a result of a failed battery replacement, expect battery life to be just as bad as on the old phone.
Looks like battery technology is becoming better in terms of aging. It will be a while before that is noticeable on 5+ year old devices, though.
Quote from: kkt on April 26, 2023, 10:17:47 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 26, 2023, 11:45:57 AM
Until yesterday, there were two ways to enter my apartment building:
(1) Key fob
(2) A special smartphone app called ButterflyMX that can also be used to buzz visitors into the building
Well, the management company got rid of (1) as an option yesterday. Apparently, if you live here, and you don't own a smartphone, you can just go commit a physical impossibility.
Oh, and if you're wondering if the new system broke already: Why yes, yes it did.
Stupid management decision. If I rented there, I'd be asking my local tenant's rights organization if my apartment's management could really require me to buy an expensive smart phone in order to have access to my apartment.
I'm really surprised this isn't against the local landlord-tenant ordinances, given how renter-friendly they are.
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 27, 2023, 01:20:48 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 26, 2023, 10:17:47 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 26, 2023, 11:45:57 AM
Until yesterday, there were two ways to enter my apartment building:
(1) Key fob
(2) A special smartphone app called ButterflyMX that can also be used to buzz visitors into the building
Well, the management company got rid of (1) as an option yesterday. Apparently, if you live here, and you don't own a smartphone, you can just go commit a physical impossibility.
Oh, and if you're wondering if the new system broke already: Why yes, yes it did.
Stupid management decision. If I rented there, I'd be asking my local tenant's rights organization if my apartment's management could really require me to buy an expensive smart phone in order to have access to my apartment.
I'm really surprised this isn't against the local landlord-tenant ordinances, given how renter-friendly they are.
Most likely once someone complains, management would need to find some other option other than the app.
If I had a penny each time someone is doing things without thinking of an outcome....
Vendor site shows pin and QR code as 2 other access options
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 12:11:15 PM
A matter of personal choice.
Top line iPhone, latest Galaxy S, BMW, Tesla, Mercedes is top of the line option.
More modest Galaxy A5x, Moto, maybe Pixel, Subaru, Honda is step below but pretty functional. There is reduced competition in this group of phones as US doesn't like Xiaomi, Huawei or OnePlus.
Galaxy A2x or A1x, infiniti, Ford are closer to bottom of the barrel.
I can understand not going for last option if possible, but using top of the line is definitely an indication of some disposable income.
Sure, but as I said before, when the "legacy" providers have these free upgrade plans, the $300 I spent on a top of the line phone 7-8 years ago has turned all the way into a $1,200 phone for free. I've never paid more than $300 for a phone, and now I own one worth 4x that. The "resale value" matters. In the case of phones, the resale value seems to be appreciating.
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 01:19:35 PMQuote from: J N Winkler on April 27, 2023, 01:04:28 PM* No-one looks out for the consumer in terms of battery life on remanufactured phones. If you are forced to accept one as a result of a failed battery replacement, expect battery life to be just as bad as on the old phone.
Looks like battery technology is becoming better in terms of aging. It will be a while before that is noticeable on 5+ year old devices, though.
Newer phones are indeed smarter about structuring charging cycles in a way that maximizes usable battery capacity over the life of the phone. However, in the case of remanufactured phones, the issue is more that nobody checks that fresh batteries are installed as part of the reconditioning process. It's telling that the cost of a remanufactured six-year-old phone is only slightly higher than that of a brand-new battery for the same model of phone.
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 01:29:29 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 27, 2023, 01:20:48 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 26, 2023, 10:17:47 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 26, 2023, 11:45:57 AM
Until yesterday, there were two ways to enter my apartment building:
(1) Key fob
(2) A special smartphone app called ButterflyMX that can also be used to buzz visitors into the building
Well, the management company got rid of (1) as an option yesterday. Apparently, if you live here, and you don't own a smartphone, you can just go commit a physical impossibility.
Oh, and if you're wondering if the new system broke already: Why yes, yes it did.
Stupid management decision. If I rented there, I'd be asking my local tenant's rights organization if my apartment's management could really require me to buy an expensive smart phone in order to have access to my apartment.
I'm really surprised this isn't against the local landlord-tenant ordinances, given how renter-friendly they are.
Most likely once someone complains, management would need to find some other option other than the app.
If I had a penny each time someone is doing things without thinking of an outcome....
Vendor site shows pin and QR code as 2 other access options
My sense is that around here, the state fire codes require that emergency response crews have an easy way to get in, the usual way is with metal door keys that are kept in a 'Knox box' by the main entrance doors. Post Office letter carriers also use similar key boxes to be able to get in and do their things.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on April 27, 2023, 01:43:36 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 01:29:29 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 27, 2023, 01:20:48 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 26, 2023, 10:17:47 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on April 26, 2023, 11:45:57 AM
Until yesterday, there were two ways to enter my apartment building:
(1) Key fob
(2) A special smartphone app called ButterflyMX that can also be used to buzz visitors into the building
Well, the management company got rid of (1) as an option yesterday. Apparently, if you live here, and you don't own a smartphone, you can just go commit a physical impossibility.
Oh, and if you're wondering if the new system broke already: Why yes, yes it did.
Stupid management decision. If I rented there, I'd be asking my local tenant's rights organization if my apartment's management could really require me to buy an expensive smart phone in order to have access to my apartment.
I'm really surprised this isn't against the local landlord-tenant ordinances, given how renter-friendly they are.
Most likely once someone complains, management would need to find some other option other than the app.
If I had a penny each time someone is doing things without thinking of an outcome....
Vendor site shows pin and QR code as 2 other access options
My sense is that around here, the state fire codes require that emergency response crews have an easy way to get in, the usual way is with metal door keys that are kept in a 'Knox box' by the main entrance doors. Post Office letter carriers also use similar key boxes to be able to get in and do their things.
Mike
In theory, they could get QR code prints in that box to scan on camera. But the follow-up question is - what would happen if there is no power? Would the door just unlock (security issue) or nobody can get in any more? UPS may only be part of the answer, not the ultimate one.
So, if your phone dies or you lose it... you just can't get into your home?
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 02:09:48 PM
So, if your phone dies or you lose it... you just can't get into your home?
How is that different from loosing or damaging a metal key or plastic card?
Quote from: SectorZ on April 27, 2023, 01:09:26 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 10:43:55 AM
Quote from: 1 on April 27, 2023, 10:25:15 AM
When my dad died, my mom tried to get Sprint to change the principal name on the account. Sprint insisted that he be there (which was impossible, since he was dead), so my mom switched from Sprint to Cingular. This was clearly not planned in advance. I don't believe there was a contract at this time, but if there was one, it would have been a larger problem.
It's amazing how some of the seemingly simplest things to do after someone dies can end up being most difficult. When my grandmother died, my mom was the executor. Of everything she had to do, the biggest ordeal was canceling my grandma's JC Penney card.
Ditto my mom when my dad died dealing with Comcast. When the goober on the phone asked to speak with him after already being told he was dead. my mother offered to dig him up so they could speak to him.
Nothing else was remotely so difficult despite being much more important.
Unfortunately, policy and procedures are in place to prevent fraud and generally BLEEP up someone's life. Hell hath no fury like someone who can't access their Internet or watch their favorite television shows.
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 02:11:48 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 02:09:48 PM
So, if your phone dies or you lose it... you just can't get into your home?
How is that different from loosing or damaging a metal key or plastic card?
1. Metal or plastic keys don't require a paid subscription. Or can you use the app without a cellular plan?
2. Getting a new phone often takes longer and is more expensive than getting a replacement metal or plastic key.
3. If you lose your metal or plastic key, it's still possible to buzz your visitor in. But, re-reading the post, I now see it didn't actually say that option was being removed from the building.
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 02:23:53 PM
2. Getting a new phone often takes longer and is more expensive than getting a replacement metal or plastic key.
When I bought my Jeep, it only came with one key, and I wanted another. It took 3 weeks to get the key shipped to me and get it programmed. When I upgraded my phone, I filled out the form online and picked it up in store a few hours later.
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 02:23:53 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 02:11:48 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 02:09:48 PM
So, if your phone dies or you lose it... you just can't get into your home?
How is that different from loosing or damaging a metal key or plastic card?
1. Metal or plastic keys don't require a paid subscription. Or can you use the app without a cellular plan?
2. Getting a new phone often takes longer and is more expensive than getting a replacement metal or plastic key.
3. If you lose your metal or plastic key, it's still possible to buzz your visitor in. But, re-reading the post, I now see it didn't actually say that option was being removed from the building.
1. apartment rental (or HOA membership for condo) is still a paid subscription. Having phone number for anything, from delivery to doctor's callback, was always a paid subscription as well. Nothing really free in this world - but despite high cost of living, it is still popular.
3. True, but likely a secondary problem for most people
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 27, 2023, 02:27:24 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 02:23:53 PM
2. Getting a new phone often takes longer and is more expensive than getting a replacement metal or plastic key.
When I bought my Jeep, it only came with one key, and I wanted another. It took 3 weeks to get the key shipped to me and get it programmed. When I upgraded my phone, I filled out the form online and picked it up in store a few hours later.
Oh, I wasn't considering that the metal key would have a chip embedded. I was thinking of the sort that building management could simply copy at the local hardware store.
Quote from: mgk920 on April 26, 2023, 08:40:24 PM
And now old-style 'flip' phones are becoming popular again with the younger crowd, an older friend of mine told me a few days ago that his Android phone just died and that he'll likely be going with a flip phone because he cannot justify the $1.4K dost of a replacement android phone. I'm also wondering how this will mesh with major sports stadia that have gone to all-smartphone based game ticketing.
Mike
What? I can get a very good iPhone SE 2nd Generation phone off eBay for around $150. Why would anyone need a phone that costs $1,400?
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 02:34:49 PM
1. apartment rental (or HOA membership for condo) is still a paid subscription. Having phone number for anything, from delivery to doctor's callback, was always a paid subscription as well. Nothing really free in this world - but despite high cost of living, it is still popular.
It's the difference between having an apartment lease
and a cellular subscription and having only an apartment lease. 1+1 is still more than 1+0.
For what it's worth... At my work, field techs have metal security keys for various things, which it's Not Very Cool to lose. To discourage them losing their keys, we charge them back $50 for a lost key. Not exactly a subscription, but it sure seems to work pretty well.
Well, barring all of that, fire or EMT crews can do a forced entry, although it will likely be a bit time consuming (a critically short commodity in that case) and very expensive for the landlord/insurance company to fix afterwards.
Mike
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 02:43:40 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 02:34:49 PM
1. apartment rental (or HOA membership for condo) is still a paid subscription. Having phone number for anything, from delivery to doctor's callback, was always a paid subscription as well. Nothing really free in this world - but despite high cost of living, it is still popular.
It's the difference between having an apartment lease and a cellular subscription and having only an apartment lease. 1+1 is still more than 1+0.
For what it's worth... At my work, field techs have metal security keys for various things, which it's Not Very Cool to lose. To discourage them losing their keys, we charge them back $50 for a lost key. Not exactly a subscription, but it sure seems to work pretty well.
Returning to original one.. Looks like there are many cases where smartphone ownership is assumed as a given.
Somewhat reminds me of the story from 90s when a guy tried to apply for janitor job at Microsoft and couldn't do that without e-mail address....
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 02:11:48 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 02:09:48 PM
So, if your phone dies or you lose it... you just can't get into your home?
How is that different from loosing or damaging a metal key or plastic card?
Metal keys are attached to my key ring which lives in my pocket. Phones don't fit in a pocket very well.
Quote from: kkt on April 27, 2023, 03:21:06 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 02:11:48 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 02:09:48 PM
So, if your phone dies or you lose it... you just can't get into your home?
How is that different from loosing or damaging a metal key or plastic card?
Metal keys are attached to my key ring which lives in my pocket. Phones don't fit in a pocket very well.
I almost always stick my iPhone X in a pocket (usually a rear pants pocket or an inside pocket on a jacket; less often a shirt's front pocket). Fits just fine.
Quote from: kkt on April 27, 2023, 03:21:06 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 02:11:48 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 02:09:48 PM
So, if your phone dies or you lose it... you just can't get into your home?
How is that different from loosing or damaging a metal key or plastic card?
Metal keys are attached to my key ring which lives in my pocket. Phones don't fit in a pocket very well.
Between metal keys on the ring, wallet with work keycard, and smartphone, I certainly don't have a fool-proof option as I have experience with forgetting/misplacing either option.
Garage opener in a car is a bit safer, but not completely fail safe as once upon a time I managed to loose my car...
Quote from: hbelkins on April 27, 2023, 02:39:34 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on April 26, 2023, 08:40:24 PM
And now old-style 'flip' phones are becoming popular again with the younger crowd, an older friend of mine told me a few days ago that his Android phone just died and that he'll likely be going with a flip phone because he cannot justify the $1.4K dost of a replacement android phone. I'm also wondering how this will mesh with major sports stadia that have gone to all-smartphone based game ticketing.
Mike
What? I can get a very good iPhone SE 2nd Generation phone off eBay for around $150. Why would anyone need a phone that costs $1,400?
I don't need mine per se, but here's some reasons I like having the phone I do:
1) I use it a lot for work and having it be very fast makes me more efficient
2) I have a 16-month-old, so being able to take "DSLR quality" photos with something in my pocket is important to me
3) I travel out of the country a lot, and being able to use an eSim on my phone will save me money and headaches getting local SIMs
4) The sound quality of the speakers is better than a cheap phone, which is nice when watching shows with my kiddo
5) I am a tall dude with big hands, and having a larger phone just feels more natural in my hands. Cheaper phones don't have the plus sizes
6) I use my phone as a GPS when I'm camping/backpacking, and having lots of storage for online maps is necessary
I'm sure I'll think of something else and edit this.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 27, 2023, 03:47:24 PM
I'm sure I'll think of something else and edit this.
Depending on one's carrier, GSM capability can be a deciding factor for international travel. I know it has been for me. Fortunately, I've always been able to find affordable options, even through Verizon.
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 03:50:21 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 27, 2023, 03:47:24 PM
I'm sure I'll think of something else and edit this.
Depending on one's carrier, GSM capability can be a deciding factor for international travel. I know it has been for me. Fortunately, I've always been able to find affordable options, even through Verizon.
I used to use the TravelPass for $10/day on Verizon. Expensive, but gives my wife peace of mind. Now I use eSims and it's more like $3/$4 a day for more data than I would get with TravelPass. Purchasing physical sims for each country on a multiple country trip is annoying and takes hours.
I just make sure that any phone I purchase can roam on both CDMA and GSM networks.
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 04:02:24 PM
I just make sure that any phone I purchase can roam on both CDMA and GSM networks.
Now that Sprint has gone away, are there even CDMA-only phones?
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 27, 2023, 04:15:58 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 04:02:24 PM
I just make sure that any phone I purchase can roam on both CDMA and GSM networks.
Now that Sprint has gone away, are there even CDMA-only phones?
Many carriers (such as AT&T and Verizon) shut down CDMA networks in 2022, rendering CDMA handsets unusable for calls, even to 911.
Quote from: ZLoth on April 27, 2023, 04:18:53 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 27, 2023, 04:15:58 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 04:02:24 PM
I just make sure that any phone I purchase can roam on both CDMA and GSM networks.
Now that Sprint has gone away, are there even CDMA-only phones?
Many carriers (such as AT&T and Verizon) shut down CDMA networks in 2022, rendering CDMA handsets unusable for calls, even to 911.
Well, it's been a concern of mine for the last 14 years of cell phone ownership. If it's a non-issue nowadays, then great. But it has definitely narrowed down the choices for me in the past when shopping for phones.
Quote from: ZLoth on April 27, 2023, 04:18:53 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 27, 2023, 04:15:58 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 04:02:24 PM
I just make sure that any phone I purchase can roam on both CDMA and GSM networks.
Now that Sprint has gone away, are there even CDMA-only phones?
Many carriers (such as AT&T and Verizon) shut down CDMA networks in 2022, rendering CDMA handsets unusable for calls, even to 911.
Did ATT ever had a CDMA network in US to begin with?
There was a shutdown of 3G network in spring 2022 for sure, that was GSM spectrum re-allocation. That did render phones unable to do voice over 4G unusable. Nothing about CDMA in that.
I'm still not quite sure how LTE, CDMA, and GSM all relate to one another...
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 04:40:16 PM
I'm still not quite sure how LTE, CDMA, and GSM all relate to one another...
https://www.usmobile.com/blog/lte-gsm-vs-cdma/
As far as I understand, LTE is still mostly an evolution of GSM.
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 04:57:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 04:40:16 PM
I'm still not quite sure how LTE, CDMA, and GSM all relate to one another...
https://www.usmobile.com/blog/lte-gsm-vs-cdma/
As far as I understand, LTE is still mostly an evolution of GSM.
What I'm getting from that article is that an LTE phone might use either CDMA or GSM networks for voice calls. Considering I've seen phone spec sheets that only list LTE bands, that still doesn't help me understand the relationships.
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 04:40:16 PMI'm still not quite sure how LTE, CDMA, and GSM all relate to one another...
I'll use a very simplified high-level overview: LTE, CDMA (and it's cousin TDMA), and GSM are all various digital methods to send voice and data from the mobile tower to multiple mobile phones on the same frequency.
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 05:07:36 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 04:57:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 04:40:16 PM
I'm still not quite sure how LTE, CDMA, and GSM all relate to one another...
https://www.usmobile.com/blog/lte-gsm-vs-cdma/
As far as I understand, LTE is still mostly an evolution of GSM.
What I'm getting from that article is that an LTE phone might use either CDMA or GSM networks for voice calls. Considering I've seen phone spec sheets that only list LTE bands, that still doesn't help me understand the relationships.
Looks like a lot of legacy support is being cut off. I don't think you get anything besides lte and 5g in US any more
Quote from: ZLoth on April 27, 2023, 04:26:09 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on April 26, 2023, 08:40:24 PMAnd now old-style 'flip' phones are becoming popular again with the younger crowd, an older friend of mine told me a few days ago that his Android phone just died and that he'll likely be going with a flip phone because he cannot justify the $1.4K dost of a replacement android phone.
Wait, what???? Now, I don't touch the iPhones, but Androids? The fold phones ... I'm not seeing the appeal of them.
If you're seriously interested in flip phones, then chances are it's because you want a device that does one thing and does it well (phone calls, probably, maybe SMS). Which means you're
not interested in:
Quote from: ZLoth on April 27, 2023, 04:26:09 AM
onboard storage... latest version of the Android OS... 3-4 apps ... processor... internal storage space... audiobooks on my phone... microSD card ... professional organizer ... login security device ... remote for my garage door and security system... phone book... navigation device... media player... pager...
I would be extremely uncomfortable tying so many functions into one device because...well, I lose stuff sometimes. I wouldn't want to be locked out of all of my accounts and lose a bunch of data just because my phone happened to slip out of my pocket without me noticing.
In general, I try to avoid using a mobile device as much as is humanly possible because I find the UI decisions made by their developers distasteful. So I have it there basically only to serve as a pointer to actually handle things on a desktop/laptop at the next available opportunity. Thus, while I probably wouldn't opt for it by choice, I could probably manage more or less fine if I were to only have a flip phone.
Quote from: kalvado on April 27, 2023, 02:11:48 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2023, 02:09:48 PM
So, if your phone dies or you lose it... you just can't get into your home?
How is that different from loosing or damaging a metal key or plastic card?
Generally you don't leave the house with a key that works and then come back to find that the same key, which you've had in your pocket the entire time, no longer works.
Quote from: NWI_Irish96 on April 26, 2023, 08:44:39 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on April 26, 2023, 08:40:24 PM
And now old-style 'flip' phones are becoming popular again with the younger crowd, an older friend of mine told me a few days ago that his Android phone just died and that he'll likely be going with a flip phone because he cannot justify the $1.4K dost of a replacement android phone. I'm also wondering how this will mesh with major sports stadia that have gone to all-smartphone based game ticketing.
Mike
If you have a home computer with a printer or have use of one, you can usually print out the barcode/QR code if you need to.
Doesn't work for Ticketmaster and some other platforms, as they will require the QR code to be able to display the moving watermark or whatever.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 27, 2023, 10:35:01 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on April 27, 2023, 04:26:09 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on April 26, 2023, 08:40:24 PMAnd now old-style 'flip' phones are becoming popular again with the younger crowd, an older friend of mine told me a few days ago that his Android phone just died and that he'll likely be going with a flip phone because he cannot justify the $1.4K dost of a replacement android phone.
Wait, what???? Now, I don't touch the iPhones, but Androids? The fold phones ... I'm not seeing the appeal of them.
If you're seriously interested in flip phones, then chances are it's because you want a device that does one thing and does it well (phone calls, probably, maybe SMS).
Not flip phones, sir, FOLD phones. There is the Samsung Galaxy Z Flip3 5G and Samsung Galaxy Z Flip4 which start at $1,050, then there is the Samsung Galaxy Z Fold3 5G and Samsung Galaxy Z Fold4 which start at $1,900. Those prices sting, and I'm not exactly trusting the technology that has some moving parts.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 27, 2023, 10:35:01 PMQuote from: ZLoth on April 27, 2023, 04:26:09 AMonboard storage... latest version of the Android OS... 3-4 apps ... processor... internal storage space... audiobooks on my phone... microSD card ... professional organizer ... login security device ... remote for my garage door and security system... phone book... navigation device... media player... pager...
I would be extremely uncomfortable tying so many functions into one device because...well, I lose stuff sometimes. I wouldn't want to be locked out of all of my accounts and lose a bunch of data just because my phone happened to slip out of my pocket without me noticing.
In general, the items that I need "on the go" aren't stored on the phone exclusively, but on the cloud which can be accessed from multiple devices such as my mobile phone, tablet, or through a web browser or client on my desktop. Updating my contact list, for example, is much easier on my desktop through the web browser than it is on my mobile device, but then the data is easily available and updated. I can also look up a destination on my desktop and then send it to my phone. Tap tap, and now it's time to drive and navigate to my destination.
As for the two-factor authentication (2FA) accounts, I use Authy (https://markholtz.info/authy) which stores the 2FA data encrypted on the cloud, but is accessible from my phone as well as the desktop client. (Shame on Google for taking thirteen years to have Gooogle Authenticator backup on the cloud (https://markholtz.info/2qo)). Same with my passwords.... they are stored encrypted on the web, and only decrypted at the device level.
Am I afraid of losing my stuff on the cloud? Nope. The material that I have stored on online storage (e.g. Google Drive, Dropbox, Box, OneDrive) is backed up to a local NAS server on a nightly basis. It is then uploaded to encrypted folders on two different storage services (Storj, Backblaze) afterwards.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 27, 2023, 10:35:01 PM
I would be extremely uncomfortable tying so many functions into one device because...well, I lose stuff sometimes. I wouldn't want to be locked out of all of my accounts and lose a bunch of data just because my phone happened to slip out of my pocket without me noticing.
It's not too different from losing a wallet with ID, credit and debit cards, and what not.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 27, 2023, 10:35:01 PM
Generally you don't leave the house with a key that works and then come back to find that the same key, which you've had in your pocket the entire time, no longer works.
Depending on how many beers you opened during the
day party.
Losing keys is also not that uncommon. Your particular key scenario may depend on having a car, with key either on the same ring or a fob kept separately - but I do see "found some keys" on local socials all the time.
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 06:56:06 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 27, 2023, 10:35:01 PM
I would be extremely uncomfortable tying so many functions into one device because...well, I lose stuff sometimes. I wouldn't want to be locked out of all of my accounts and lose a bunch of data just because my phone happened to slip out of my pocket without me noticing.
It's not too different from losing a wallet with ID, credit and debit cards, and what not.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 27, 2023, 10:35:01 PM
Generally you don't leave the house with a key that works and then come back to find that the same key, which you've had in your pocket the entire time, no longer works.
Depending on how many beers you opened during the day party.
Losing keys is also not that uncommon. Your particular key scenario may depend on having a car, with key either on the same ring or a fob kept separately - but I do see "found some keys" on local socials all the time.
If I am about to leave my house and I can't find my keys, I know this pretty quickly, and don't leave the house until I find the keys.
If I am about to leave my house and my phone is, I don't necessarily know this before I leave the house (unknowingly locking myself out) because a dead phone looks and feels the same as a live one.
"maybe you should check your phone before you bla bla bla" Yeah, but sometimes I don't because I'm not thinking about it. Why should I be locked out of my house for that? How does adding yet another thing to check on before leaving actually benefit me?
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 28, 2023, 07:02:47 AM
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 06:56:06 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 27, 2023, 10:35:01 PM
I would be extremely uncomfortable tying so many functions into one device because...well, I lose stuff sometimes. I wouldn't want to be locked out of all of my accounts and lose a bunch of data just because my phone happened to slip out of my pocket without me noticing.
It's not too different from losing a wallet with ID, credit and debit cards, and what not.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 27, 2023, 10:35:01 PM
Generally you don't leave the house with a key that works and then come back to find that the same key, which you've had in your pocket the entire time, no longer works.
Depending on how many beers you opened during the day party.
Losing keys is also not that uncommon. Your particular key scenario may depend on having a car, with key either on the same ring or a fob kept separately - but I do see "found some keys" on local socials all the time.
If I am about to leave my house and I can't find my keys, I know this pretty quickly, and don't leave the house until I find the keys.
If I am about to leave my house and my phone is, I don't necessarily know this before I leave the house (unknowingly locking myself out) because a dead phone looks and feels the same as a live one.
"maybe you should check your phone before you bla bla bla" Yeah, but sometimes I don't because I'm not thinking about it. Why should I be locked out of my house for that? How does adding yet another thing to check on before leaving actually benefit me?
You never lived with an entry door that locks automatically as you leave, right? Not a common arrangement for residential, but I had a door snap behind me at work with key(card) still inside more than once. It's resolvable, but still a mess...
A family member locking the door as you leave is another plausible scenario.
I park in the garage, so I leave through a garage door. The garage door opener doesn't ever leave the car, so it's more or less impossible for me to leave the house without it. If the batteries die, I have a physical metal key to get in the front door as a backup. I can't leave the house without my metal key, as it's on the same ring as the key that starts the car.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 28, 2023, 08:14:15 AM
I park in the garage, so I leave through a garage door. The garage door opener doesn't ever leave the car, so it's more or less impossible for me to leave the house without it. If the batteries die, I have a physical metal key to get in the front door as a backup. I can't leave the house without my metal key, as it's on the same ring as the key that starts the car.
Same here, actually. I also have a spare metal key somewhere on the property. But I also have lived in a dorm, rental apartments, with and without a car, with and without building security.
So I experienced many different scenarios of being locked out. Loose knot on necklace and key disappearing somewhere on a playground with lace still there as a... Probably pre-teen? was the most embarrassing.
Long ago I got into the habit of using the metal key to lock the doors of my residence, car, etc. It ensures that I have them. The fob for my current car is part of the metal key, so I now use that to lock the car door.
Mike
I guess it just comes down to for me, the things I check I have when I walk into the garage are keys, wallet, and phone. It's not quite "spectacles, testicles, wallet, and watch," but close enough. It's not hard for me to remember my phone. I'll be honest and don't understand why it is for others.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 28, 2023, 12:11:06 PM
I guess it just comes down to for me, the things I check I have when I walk into the garage are keys, wallet, and phone. It's not quite "spectacles, testicles, wallet, and watch," but close enough. It's not hard for me to remember my phone. I'll be honest and don't understand why it is for others.
A wise man said that you should forget your phone at home once in a while, so when you really need to forget it - things don't look too suspicious...
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 12:21:41 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 28, 2023, 12:11:06 PM
I guess it just comes down to for me, the things I check I have when I walk into the garage are keys, wallet, and phone. It's not quite "spectacles, testicles, wallet, and watch," but close enough. It's not hard for me to remember my phone. I'll be honest and don't understand why it is for others.
A wise man said that you should forget your phone at home once in a while, so when you really need to forget it - things don't look too suspicious...
I don't have the time for those kind of shenanigans. My wife can follow my location on GMaps too, because I don't care. ;)
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 07:13:29 AM
You never lived with an entry door that locks automatically as you leave, right? Not a common arrangement for residential, but I had a door snap behind me at work with key(card) still inside more than once. It's resolvable, but still a mess...
A family member locking the door as you leave is another plausible scenario.
I've lived in an apartment building whose door locked behind me. And I've locked myself out of that building before. Fortunately, I knew a side door that I could jimmy open with my Blockbuster card...
But, what Scott had said originally was that 'you don't leave the house with a key that works and then come back to find that the same key, which you've had in your pocket the entire time, no longer works'. He means leaving home with a fully functional cell phone, then returning home with a dead battery. This does not happen with metal keys or plastic keycards: if it worked when you left home, then it will work when you get back.
Quote from: kphoger on April 28, 2023, 12:59:29 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 07:13:29 AM
You never lived with an entry door that locks automatically as you leave, right? Not a common arrangement for residential, but I had a door snap behind me at work with key(card) still inside more than once. It's resolvable, but still a mess...
A family member locking the door as you leave is another plausible scenario.
I've lived in an apartment building whose door locked behind me. And I've locked myself out of that building before. Fortunately, I knew a side door that I could jimmy open with my Blockbuster card...
But, what Scott had said originally was that 'you don't leave the house with a key that works and then come back to find that the same key, which you've had in your pocket the entire time, no longer works'. He means leaving home with a fully functional cell phone, then returning home with a dead battery. This does not happen with metal keys or plastic keycards: if it worked when you left home, then it will work when you get back.
Of course that is fairly optimistic thought. Key can get damaged - opening beer bottles is one possible cause. Loosing something that passively sits in the pocket all day is also possible.
It may be less common thing, though.
Then, there are cars with chargers in case you bring up car key into discussion.
My point is, if you are using a physical object for access - you can misplace or damage it, or it can be stollen. GRegardless of what that object is. Pin code can be forgotten, fingerprint damaged by minor - or not so minor - trauma; retina... ok, let me skip that.
So things are tough without a plan B!
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 01:13:32 PM
Of course that is fairly optimistic thought. Key can get damaged - opening beer bottles is one possible cause.
Uh.... yeah.... OK, I guess.... Personally, the only way I've had a key stop opening the door was when they key got bent from
using it in the messed-up keyhole too many times.
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 01:13:32 PM
Loosing something that passively sits in the pocket all day is also possible.
It may be less common thing, though.
Again, not what he was talking about. He was talking about it being in your pocket the whole time, then not working when you pull it out (the key, not the banana).
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 01:13:32 PM
Then, there are cars with chargers in case you bring up car key into discussion.
Which only works if you have a car. Which I didn't when I lived in that apartment I mentioned.
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 01:13:32 PM
My point is, if you are using a physical object for access - you can misplace or damage it, or it can be stollen. GRegardless of what that object is. Pin code can be forgotten, fingerprint damaged by minor - or not so minor - trauma; retina... ok, let me skip that.
So things are tough without a plan B!
Yes. It's just that the likelihood of needing that Plan B seems like it would increase when you switch to smartphone-only entry.
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 28, 2023, 07:02:47 AMIf I am about to leave my house and my phone is, I don't necessarily know this before I leave the house (unknowingly locking myself out) because a dead phone looks and feels the same as a live one.
"maybe you should check your phone before you bla bla bla" Yeah, but sometimes I don't because I'm not thinking about it. Why should I be locked out of my house for that? How does adding yet another thing to check on before leaving actually benefit me?
I'd also add that if the phone is having end-of-life battery issues, checking it before you leave won't help, because such phones tend to crash unpredictably when reported remaining battery life is a fairly high percentage. My last phone frequently crashed at a point where it would report well over 60% battery life remaining as soon as it was plugged back in.
Having to defend a certain increment of remaining battery life to be sure you can get back into your own dwelling, get a ride back home (using a TNC app or a public transit E-ticket), etc. also limits how much you can use your phone when you are out and about with few or uncertain recharging opportunities.
For these reasons alone, I greatly prefer to have metal keys for my own front door, my car, etc., even though I recognize they have their own security shortcomings. This tends to be less of an issue for good-quality house locks, but apartment complexes tend to use very few distinct key combinations, meaning that the same key often opens multiple apartments in the same complex. When I lived in a high-rise apartment building on a short-term lease, I once got off the elevator on the wrong floor (I had hit the wrong button in the elevator--a classic "typo," only involving gross motor movement), walked past the same number of doors that I would have to reach my apartment on the correct floor, put my key in the lock, turned it, and realized my mistake only when I saw all of the furniture appeared to have moved. Fortunately the tenants were out; similar incidents today often have fatal consequences (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_Jean).
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 28, 2023, 12:11:06 PMI'll be honest and don't understand why it is for others.
I can. Taking a phone along is a matter of habit formation and even when a habit is well-established, there are occasions when your brain zigs when it should zag and the habitual behavior does not occur.
I routinely take my phone with me when I drive somewhere only because I use a GPS logger to track mileage for the daily driver, whose odometer has not worked since 2013. Even so, in a typical year I have one or two instances (which I document) of travel not being logged because I forgot to take my phone or to launch the logger app (both habitual behaviors).
Besides the aspect of habit, many people (myself included) use ballistic phone cases, which afford much better protection for the phone (thus cutting down greatly on expenses for insurance, repair, and replacement) but make it more difficult to carry on one's person. When I am out running errands, for example, I tend to keep my phone locked up in the trunk of my car unless it is so cold the battery is likely to freeze.
Right now I am in a tug-of-war with Dillons, which would like me to install their digital coupon app on my phone. If I did so, I could simply scan a QR code off the shelf sticker to load the digital coupon when I discover a discounted item I missed while going through the weekly ad and the coupons online. However, unless I am wearing a jacket and thus can keep the phone in one of the pockets, it's a major inconvenience to have it with me in the store. It's too large for my trouser pocket, clipping it to my waist doesn't work if I'm wearing my shirt untucked (as I often do in the summer), and laying it down in the cart invites casual theft.
Quote from: kphoger on April 28, 2023, 01:30:18 PM
Yes. It's just that the likelihood of needing that Plan B seems like it would increase when you switch to smartphone-only entry.
A novel called
CyberStorm by Matthew Mather presents an interesting take on the problems that can occur when you rely too much on technology for mundane things. Somewhat interesting read, though the characters were mostly just the vehicle for the author to get his point across (similar in that respect to
Shuttle Down by Lee Correy, which tells the story of what happens when
Atlantis makes an emergency landing on Easter Island). If you're interested in the issue of needing a "Plan B" or similar, you might find it an interesting read.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 28, 2023, 01:45:40 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 28, 2023, 12:11:06 PM
I'll be honest and don't understand why it is for others.
I can. Taking a phone along is a matter of habit formation and even when a habit is well-established, there are occasions when your brain zigs when it should zag and the habitual behavior does not occur.
I routinely take my phone with me when I drive somewhere only because I use a GPS logger to track mileage for the daily driver, whose odometer has not worked since 2013. Even so, in a typical year I have one or two instances (which I document) of travel not being logged because I forgot to take my phone or to launch the logger app (both habitual behaviors).
There are also scenarios in which I don't take my phone along at all. For example, if I'm going to the gym, I generally leave my phone at home. Same with going for a bike ride or a walk.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 28, 2023, 01:48:19 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 28, 2023, 01:30:18 PM
Yes. It's just that the likelihood of needing that Plan B seems like it would increase when you switch to smartphone-only entry.
A novel called CyberStorm by Matthew Mather presents an interesting take on the problems that can occur when you rely too much on technology for mundane things. Somewhat interesting read, though the characters were mostly just the vehicle for the author to get his point across (similar in that respect to Shuttle Down by Lee Correy, which tells the story of what happens when Atlantis makes an emergency landing on Easter Island). If you're interested in the issue of needing a "Plan B" or similar, you might find it an interesting read.
I guess we're too used to non-technological issues and don't take them that dearly. Yet spare tire still sits in the trunk!
As for plan B, I remember at least one of my old leases specifically talking about what needs to be done in case of lost keys (including calling a complex employee who lived in the apartment as a last resort)
Quote from: kphoger on April 28, 2023, 01:57:41 PMThere are also scenarios in which I don't take my phone along at all. For example, if I'm going to the gym, I generally leave my phone at home. Same with going for a bike ride or a walk.
I definitely don't take my phone with me when I go for a walk. If not for GPS logging, I would likely leave it at home most days I go to the gym, as I usually don't need it with me on the floor and it can be a hassle to stow it securely, especially given the theft problems at the downtown Y (lockers get broken into on a routine basis, and about once or twice a year I hear about someone cracking open one of the key boxes next to the reception desk).
Welp, I checked the callbox briefly this morning, and I could feel two slots on the underside that would accommodate a large key, about the size of those passkeys the fire department has.
Initially I thought maybe there was a way to grant first responders a passcode to unlock the door, but heaven knows what the failsafe would be.
I also noticed that the callbox is somehow related to a partnership with Amazon, and maybe they dropped support for the fobs ("what will the poors do?" is not a question "disruptors" tend to ask).
There are, I think, four other locks in the building that require a smartphone: The back entry door, which leads to a breezeway; the door at the other end of the breezeway (that actually goes into the building); the laundry room; and the fitness room/mailroom. I always bring my smartphone to the laundry room, since I can pay to use the washers and dryers with an app, which will then alert me when the cycles are done, so no great loss there.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 28, 2023, 02:12:32 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 28, 2023, 01:57:41 PMThere are also scenarios in which I don't take my phone along at all. For example, if I'm going to the gym, I generally leave my phone at home. Same with going for a bike ride or a walk.
I definitely don't take my phone with me when I go for a walk. If not for GPS logging, I would likely leave it at home most days I go to the gym, as I usually don't need it with me on the floor and it can be a hassle to stow it securely, especially given the theft problems at the downtown Y (lockers get broken into on a routine basis, and about once or twice a year I hear about someone cracking open one of the key boxes next to the reception desk).
I leave my phone in the car all the time if I'm running errands and don't need it for anything. It's nice to go off the grid for 10-15 minutes.
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 01:58:47 PM
.... Yet spare tire still sits in the trunk!
....
My wife's car actually doesn't have a spare tire, just a compressor to inflate a flat tire–which proved useless the one time she had an issue because the issue was a punctured sidewall that resulted in us to having to get the car towed.
Quote from: kphoger on April 28, 2023, 01:57:41 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 28, 2023, 01:45:40 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 28, 2023, 12:11:06 PM
I'll be honest and don't understand why it is for others.
I can. Taking a phone along is a matter of habit formation and even when a habit is well-established, there are occasions when your brain zigs when it should zag and the habitual behavior does not occur.
I routinely take my phone with me when I drive somewhere only because I use a GPS logger to track mileage for the daily driver, whose odometer has not worked since 2013. Even so, in a typical year I have one or two instances (which I document) of travel not being logged because I forgot to take my phone or to launch the logger app (both habitual behaviors).
There are also scenarios in which I don't take my phone along at all. For example, if I'm going to the gym, I generally leave my phone at home. Same with going for a bike ride or a walk.
I find, though, that if one NEEDS to bring it with them, i.e. if that's how you get into your home, then the habit gets reinforced rather easily. If you haven't locked yourself out of your home by forgetting your keys, it's probably because you remember that you'll need it to get back in your home. If your phone becomes your key, then similarly, you won't forget it.
If I go for a bike ride or a walk, I very well might not bring my phone or my keys. But I'll leave the door unlocked so that I don't need to.
I generally take my phone with me when I work out because I prefer to listen to podcasts or my own music rather than the crap pumped out at the gym. I do the same when I drive. It sits on the charger at home but I take it when I leave the house. I'm not sure I'd like it if I had to use it for my house or car key. But I'm fine to use it for my Costco membership, riding the LA Metro, and checking into the gym with their respective apps. It beats keeping a stack of one-use cars in my wallet.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 28, 2023, 02:30:09 PM
I find, though, that if one NEEDS to bring it with them, i.e. if that's how you get into your home, then the habit gets reinforced rather easily. If you haven't locked yourself out of your home by forgetting your keys, it's probably because you remember that you'll need it to get back in your home.
When I first moved from rural western Kansas to Chicago, I was in the habit of occasionally leaving my car keys
in the car. (For those of you who have never lived in a small town, yes, people actually do that.) Then, one day, I locked my car with the car still running. I had to pay the night rate for that locksmith. Lesson learned.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 28, 2023, 01:48:19 PM
A novel called CyberStorm by Matthew Mather presents an interesting take on the problems that can occur when you rely too much on technology for mundane things. Somewhat interesting read, though the characters were mostly just the vehicle for the author to get his point across (similar in that respect to Shuttle Down by Lee Correy, which tells the story of what happens when Atlantis makes an emergency landing on Easter Island). If you're interested in the issue of needing a "Plan B" or similar, you might find it an interesting read.
Oh, wow, in response to this post I discovered on Wikipedia that Easter Island really was an alternate landing site for the Shuttle, and NASA paid to lengthen their runway so it would be usable with the Shuttle orbiters' dead-stick landings. That also made the airport usable by jumbo jets, which have greatly increased the island's tourism.
Quote from: kkt on April 28, 2023, 03:25:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 28, 2023, 01:48:19 PM
A novel called CyberStorm by Matthew Mather presents an interesting take on the problems that can occur when you rely too much on technology for mundane things. Somewhat interesting read, though the characters were mostly just the vehicle for the author to get his point across (similar in that respect to Shuttle Down by Lee Correy, which tells the story of what happens when Atlantis makes an emergency landing on Easter Island). If you're interested in the issue of needing a "Plan B" or similar, you might find it an interesting read.
Oh, wow, in response to this post I discovered on Wikipedia that Easter Island really was an alternate landing site for the Shuttle, and NASA paid to lengthen their runway so it would be usable with the Shuttle orbiters' dead-stick landings. That also made the airport usable by jumbo jets, which have greatly increased the island's tourism.
I wonder what kind of trajectory would bring the shuttle to easter island. Was that for California polar launches? Also given paranoiac rules for available runway... Scheduling effects would be non-trivial.
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 03:43:41 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 28, 2023, 03:25:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 28, 2023, 01:48:19 PM
A novel called CyberStorm by Matthew Mather presents an interesting take on the problems that can occur when you rely too much on technology for mundane things. Somewhat interesting read, though the characters were mostly just the vehicle for the author to get his point across (similar in that respect to Shuttle Down by Lee Correy, which tells the story of what happens when Atlantis makes an emergency landing on Easter Island). If you're interested in the issue of needing a "Plan B" or similar, you might find it an interesting read.
Oh, wow, in response to this post I discovered on Wikipedia that Easter Island really was an alternate landing site for the Shuttle, and NASA paid to lengthen their runway so it would be usable with the Shuttle orbiters' dead-stick landings. That also made the airport usable by jumbo jets, which have greatly increased the island's tourism.
I wonder what kind of trajectory would bring the shuttle to easter island. Was that for California polar launches? Also given paranoiac rules for available runway... Scheduling effects would be non-trivial.
Yes, I think it was mainly for the California launches... which ended up discontinued.
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 03:43:41 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 28, 2023, 03:25:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 28, 2023, 01:48:19 PM
A novel called CyberStorm by Matthew Mather presents an interesting take on the problems that can occur when you rely too much on technology for mundane things. Somewhat interesting read, though the characters were mostly just the vehicle for the author to get his point across (similar in that respect to Shuttle Down by Lee Correy, which tells the story of what happens when Atlantis makes an emergency landing on Easter Island). If you're interested in the issue of needing a "Plan B" or similar, you might find it an interesting read.
Oh, wow, in response to this post I discovered on Wikipedia that Easter Island really was an alternate landing site for the Shuttle, and NASA paid to lengthen their runway so it would be usable with the Shuttle orbiters' dead-stick landings. That also made the airport usable by jumbo jets, which have greatly increased the island's tourism.
I wonder what kind of trajectory would bring the shuttle to easter island. Was that for California polar launches? Also given paranoiac rules for available runway... Scheduling effects would be non-trivial.
Correct. NASA and the Air Force planned to launch the shuttle (
Discovery was to be the one primary dedicated to Defense Department use) from Vandenberg Air Force Base. Typical launches would have been southbound over the Pacific Ocean, which would have meant Easter Island would have been one of the only landing sites available in case of an emergency. Southbound launches from Florida were deemed unacceptable due both to the need to overfly heavily populated areas of South Florida and the political problem of the solid rocket boosters potentially coming down within Cuban territory.
No Vandenberg launches ever took place, of course. STS-62-A was planned for 1986 but was delayed and, ultimately, cancelled after the
Challenger accident. It's unclear whether a Vandenberg launch would have succeeded, either. A polar-orbit launch doesn't get a gravity assist, so the shuttle's payload capacity would have been reduced. To make up for that, NASA and the Defense Department planned to use filament-wound solid rocket boosters that would have been lighter than the normal ones. There was also concern about vibrations from the surrounding mountains and increased icing due to the cold weather. One analysis estimated a 25% chance of catastrophic failure on any given West Coast shuttle launch.
The book I mentioned,
Shuttle Down, was written by a NASA employee under a pen name as what Piers Anthony once called a "message novel." He was concerned that NASA wasn't taking all sorts of issues related to the potential for emergency landings seriously and he wanted to show what sort of problems they'd face if they didn't shape up.
The potential for polar-orbit launches, incidentally, was the reason for the shuttle having the winged design it used. The Air Force wanted to be able to launch a shuttle to retrieve a satellite (or steal a Soviet satellite) and then land back at its launch site within a single orbit or two. But the Earth's rotation meant the shuttle needed sufficient cross-range to do that because the landing site would have moved some distance to the east by the time the shuttle completed an orbit. Makes me wonder to what extent the
Columbia accident was due, in part, to the unrealized plans for polar-orbit missions–might the wings not have been needed, or at least not in the same configuration, had polar launches not been planned?
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 28, 2023, 02:12:32 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 28, 2023, 01:57:41 PMThere are also scenarios in which I don't take my phone along at all. For example, if I'm going to the gym, I generally leave my phone at home. Same with going for a bike ride or a walk.
I definitely don't take my phone with me when I go for a walk. If not for GPS logging, I would likely leave it at home most days I go to the gym, as I usually don't need it with me on the floor and it can be a hassle to stow it securely, especially given the theft problems at the downtown Y (lockers get broken into on a routine basis, and about once or twice a year I hear about someone cracking open one of the key boxes next to the reception desk).
Invest in a better lock.
Quote from: kphoger on April 28, 2023, 03:11:32 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 28, 2023, 02:30:09 PM
I find, though, that if one NEEDS to bring it with them, i.e. if that's how you get into your home, then the habit gets reinforced rather easily. If you haven't locked yourself out of your home by forgetting your keys, it's probably because you remember that you'll need it to get back in your home.
When I first moved from rural western Kansas to Chicago, I was in the habit of occasionally leaving my car keys in the car. (For those of you who have never lived in a small town, yes, people actually do that.) Then, one day, I locked my car with the car still running. I had to pay the night rate for that locksmith. Lesson learned.
Heh. Yeah, my brother got into that habit and his car got taken for a joyride.
Quote from: Rothman on April 28, 2023, 04:06:10 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 28, 2023, 03:11:32 PM
When I first moved from rural western Kansas to Chicago, I was in the habit of occasionally leaving my car keys in the car. (For those of you who have never lived in a small town, yes, people actually do that.) Then, one day, I locked my car with the car still running. I had to pay the night rate for that locksmith. Lesson learned.
Heh. Yeah, my brother got into that habit and his car got taken for a joyride.
At high school basketball games, there were usually long periods of time when the pep band didn't play. So I'd sometimes duck out into the parking lot, find someone's car with the keys still inside, and go park it at the opposite end of the parking lot–just so they'd wonder where their car went when they walked outside after the game.
I also remember having to run home for something during a hometown track meet, but I didn't have my car. I asked a classmate who was doing long jump at the time, and he said I could borrow his pickup–the keys are in the ignition. Worked out great for me. Well, once I managed to back out of the space, that is. The only stickshift cars I had ever driven were Toyota sedans, and his pickup was a 1981 Ram. Totally different clutch action!
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 28, 2023, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 03:43:41 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 28, 2023, 03:25:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 28, 2023, 01:48:19 PM
A novel called CyberStorm by Matthew Mather presents an interesting take on the problems that can occur when you rely too much on technology for mundane things. Somewhat interesting read, though the characters were mostly just the vehicle for the author to get his point across (similar in that respect to Shuttle Down by Lee Correy, which tells the story of what happens when Atlantis makes an emergency landing on Easter Island). If you're interested in the issue of needing a "Plan B" or similar, you might find it an interesting read.
Oh, wow, in response to this post I discovered on Wikipedia that Easter Island really was an alternate landing site for the Shuttle, and NASA paid to lengthen their runway so it would be usable with the Shuttle orbiters' dead-stick landings. That also made the airport usable by jumbo jets, which have greatly increased the island's tourism.
I wonder what kind of trajectory would bring the shuttle to easter island. Was that for California polar launches? Also given paranoiac rules for available runway... Scheduling effects would be non-trivial.
Correct. NASA and the Air Force planned to launch the shuttle (Discovery was to be the one primary dedicated to Defense Department use) from Vandenberg Air Force Base. Typical launches would have been southbound over the Pacific Ocean, which would have meant Easter Island would have been one of the only landing sites available in case of an emergency. Southbound launches from Florida were deemed unacceptable due both to the need to overfly heavily populated areas of South Florida and the political problem of the solid rocket boosters potentially coming down within Cuban territory.
No Vandenberg launches ever took place, of course. STS-62-A was planned for 1986 but was delayed and, ultimately, cancelled after the Challenger accident. It's unclear whether a Vandenberg launch would have succeeded, either. A polar-orbit launch doesn't get a gravity assist, so the shuttle's payload capacity would have been reduced. To make up for that, NASA and the Defense Department planned to use filament-wound solid rocket boosters that would have been lighter than the normal ones. There was also concern about vibrations from the surrounding mountains and increased icing due to the cold weather. One analysis estimated a 25% chance of catastrophic failure on any given West Coast shuttle launch.
The book I mentioned, Shuttle Down, was written by a NASA employee under a pen name as what Piers Anthony once called a "message novel." He was concerned that NASA wasn't taking all sorts of issues related to the potential for emergency landings seriously and he wanted to show what sort of problems they'd face if they didn't shape up.
The potential for polar-orbit launches, incidentally, was the reason for the shuttle having the winged design it used. The Air Force wanted to be able to launch a shuttle to retrieve a satellite (or steal a Soviet satellite) and then land back at its launch site within a single orbit or two. But the Earth's rotation meant the shuttle needed sufficient cross-range to do that because the landing site would have moved some distance to the east by the time the shuttle completed an orbit. Makes me wonder to what extent the Columbia accident was due, in part, to the unrealized plans for polar-orbit missions–might the wings not have been needed, or at least not in the same configuration, had polar launches not been planned?
Intercepting satellite on a single orbit flight is a joke at best.
As for wings, runway landing requires wings no matter what. Shuttle flaring capability already was somewhere between those of steam iron and a brick. And turbine engines were ditched pretty early in development process.
Landing without wings... Parachutes is pretty much the only option. And without flare aiming at a landing site is pretty difficult, if possible at all.
Where DoD actually destroyed the shuttle was in payload requirements (15 tons at 104% and 30 tons at 109% IIRC). That shaped entire program into a monstrous thing.
Quote from: Rothman on April 28, 2023, 04:02:31 PMInvest in a better lock.
Within the downtown Y it is not really up to me. The best lock money can buy doesn't help when the thieves tear the door off. The key lockers have their own combination dials where users choose their own four-digit combinations and then must remember to spin the wheels after they close the door. There is no provision for a user-provided lock; the dials are vulnerable to a stethoscope attack and there is a passkey slot that I am sure would yield to a pick gun.
And, of course, car locking systems of all kinds are secure only up to a certain point.
I use the key lockers in spite of their shortcomings since they are within view of the check-in desk, and haven't had problems with the protocol I use. But it is a calculated risk.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 28, 2023, 04:20:31 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 28, 2023, 04:02:31 PMInvest in a better lock.
Within the downtown Y it is not really up to me. The best lock money can buy doesn't help when the thieves tear the door off. The key lockers have their own combination dials where users choose their own four-digit combinations and then must remember to spin the wheels after they close the door. There is no provision for a user-provided lock; the dials are vulnerable to a stethoscope attack and there is a passkey slot that I am sure would yield to a pick gun.
And, of course, car locking systems of all kinds are secure only up to a certain point.
I use the key lockers in spite of their shortcomings since they are within view of the check-in desk, and haven't had problems with the protocol I use. But it is a calculated risk.
I would think if thefts and damage were so prevalent that the Y would have to close down due to insurance costs going through the roof.
Our downtown Y allows for people to bring their own locks.
Quote from: Rothman on April 28, 2023, 04:23:34 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 28, 2023, 04:20:31 PM
Quote from: Rothman on April 28, 2023, 04:02:31 PMInvest in a better lock.
Within the downtown Y it is not really up to me. The best lock money can buy doesn't help when the thieves tear the door off. The key lockers have their own combination dials where users choose their own four-digit combinations and then must remember to spin the wheels after they close the door. There is no provision for a user-provided lock; the dials are vulnerable to a stethoscope attack and there is a passkey slot that I am sure would yield to a pick gun.
And, of course, car locking systems of all kinds are secure only up to a certain point.
I use the key lockers in spite of their shortcomings since they are within view of the check-in desk, and haven't had problems with the protocol I use. But it is a calculated risk.
I would think if thefts and damage were so prevalent that the Y would have to close down due to insurance costs going through the roof.
Our downtown Y allows for people to bring their own locks.
I just happened to see a few videos about lock picking.... General purpose locks are meant only to protect against honest people, as it seems.
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 04:32:28 PMI just happened to see a few videos about lock picking.... General purpose locks are meant only to protect against honest people, as it seems.
Lock picking is fun!
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 04:14:13 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 28, 2023, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 03:43:41 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 28, 2023, 03:25:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 28, 2023, 01:48:19 PM
A novel called CyberStorm by Matthew Mather presents an interesting take on the problems that can occur when you rely too much on technology for mundane things. Somewhat interesting read, though the characters were mostly just the vehicle for the author to get his point across (similar in that respect to Shuttle Down by Lee Correy, which tells the story of what happens when Atlantis makes an emergency landing on Easter Island). If you're interested in the issue of needing a "Plan B" or similar, you might find it an interesting read.
Oh, wow, in response to this post I discovered on Wikipedia that Easter Island really was an alternate landing site for the Shuttle, and NASA paid to lengthen their runway so it would be usable with the Shuttle orbiters' dead-stick landings. That also made the airport usable by jumbo jets, which have greatly increased the island's tourism.
I wonder what kind of trajectory would bring the shuttle to easter island. Was that for California polar launches? Also given paranoiac rules for available runway... Scheduling effects would be non-trivial.
Correct. NASA and the Air Force planned to launch the shuttle (Discovery was to be the one primary dedicated to Defense Department use) from Vandenberg Air Force Base. Typical launches would have been southbound over the Pacific Ocean, which would have meant Easter Island would have been one of the only landing sites available in case of an emergency. Southbound launches from Florida were deemed unacceptable due both to the need to overfly heavily populated areas of South Florida and the political problem of the solid rocket boosters potentially coming down within Cuban territory.
No Vandenberg launches ever took place, of course. STS-62-A was planned for 1986 but was delayed and, ultimately, cancelled after the Challenger accident. It's unclear whether a Vandenberg launch would have succeeded, either. A polar-orbit launch doesn't get a gravity assist, so the shuttle's payload capacity would have been reduced. To make up for that, NASA and the Defense Department planned to use filament-wound solid rocket boosters that would have been lighter than the normal ones. There was also concern about vibrations from the surrounding mountains and increased icing due to the cold weather. One analysis estimated a 25% chance of catastrophic failure on any given West Coast shuttle launch.
The book I mentioned, Shuttle Down, was written by a NASA employee under a pen name as what Piers Anthony once called a "message novel." He was concerned that NASA wasn't taking all sorts of issues related to the potential for emergency landings seriously and he wanted to show what sort of problems they'd face if they didn't shape up.
The potential for polar-orbit launches, incidentally, was the reason for the shuttle having the winged design it used. The Air Force wanted to be able to launch a shuttle to retrieve a satellite (or steal a Soviet satellite) and then land back at its launch site within a single orbit or two. But the Earth's rotation meant the shuttle needed sufficient cross-range to do that because the landing site would have moved some distance to the east by the time the shuttle completed an orbit. Makes me wonder to what extent the Columbia accident was due, in part, to the unrealized plans for polar-orbit missions–might the wings not have been needed, or at least not in the same configuration, had polar launches not been planned?
Intercepting satellite on a single orbit flight is a joke at best.
As for wings, runway landing requires wings no matter what. Shuttle flaring capability already was somewhere between those of steam iron and a brick. And turbine engines were ditched pretty early in development process.
Landing without wings... Parachutes is pretty much the only option. And without flare aiming at a landing site is pretty difficult, if possible at all.
Where DoD actually destroyed the shuttle was in payload requirements (15 tons at 104% and 30 tons at 109% IIRC). That shaped entire program into a monstrous thing.
What I think I recall reading was that it was the particular delta-wing design they used that was necessitated by Defense Department requirements and that some other design (I do not know the details) had been proposed prior to various specification changes. It certainly seems like some form of delta wing was needed given the hypersonic velocities achieved. The Boeing 2707 studies show why a swing-wing design would have been impractical (recognizing that was to have been a passenger aircraft, of course, but the issue of the weight penalty that proved unacceptable for the 2707 would surely have been a significant issue).
Our college choir stayed with families while on tour. In small-town Iowa, they didn't lock the house doors. In fact one time when they were going on vacation for a while and thought it might be a good idea to lock up, they had to search for the keys.
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 28, 2023, 04:43:14 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 04:14:13 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 28, 2023, 03:49:58 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 03:43:41 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 28, 2023, 03:25:35 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 28, 2023, 01:48:19 PM
A novel called CyberStorm by Matthew Mather presents an interesting take on the problems that can occur when you rely too much on technology for mundane things. Somewhat interesting read, though the characters were mostly just the vehicle for the author to get his point across (similar in that respect to Shuttle Down by Lee Correy, which tells the story of what happens when Atlantis makes an emergency landing on Easter Island). If you're interested in the issue of needing a "Plan B" or similar, you might find it an interesting read.
Oh, wow, in response to this post I discovered on Wikipedia that Easter Island really was an alternate landing site for the Shuttle, and NASA paid to lengthen their runway so it would be usable with the Shuttle orbiters' dead-stick landings. That also made the airport usable by jumbo jets, which have greatly increased the island's tourism.
I wonder what kind of trajectory would bring the shuttle to easter island. Was that for California polar launches? Also given paranoiac rules for available runway... Scheduling effects would be non-trivial.
Correct. NASA and the Air Force planned to launch the shuttle (Discovery was to be the one primary dedicated to Defense Department use) from Vandenberg Air Force Base. Typical launches would have been southbound over the Pacific Ocean, which would have meant Easter Island would have been one of the only landing sites available in case of an emergency. Southbound launches from Florida were deemed unacceptable due both to the need to overfly heavily populated areas of South Florida and the political problem of the solid rocket boosters potentially coming down within Cuban territory.
No Vandenberg launches ever took place, of course. STS-62-A was planned for 1986 but was delayed and, ultimately, cancelled after the Challenger accident. It's unclear whether a Vandenberg launch would have succeeded, either. A polar-orbit launch doesn't get a gravity assist, so the shuttle's payload capacity would have been reduced. To make up for that, NASA and the Defense Department planned to use filament-wound solid rocket boosters that would have been lighter than the normal ones. There was also concern about vibrations from the surrounding mountains and increased icing due to the cold weather. One analysis estimated a 25% chance of catastrophic failure on any given West Coast shuttle launch.
The book I mentioned, Shuttle Down, was written by a NASA employee under a pen name as what Piers Anthony once called a "message novel." He was concerned that NASA wasn't taking all sorts of issues related to the potential for emergency landings seriously and he wanted to show what sort of problems they'd face if they didn't shape up.
The potential for polar-orbit launches, incidentally, was the reason for the shuttle having the winged design it used. The Air Force wanted to be able to launch a shuttle to retrieve a satellite (or steal a Soviet satellite) and then land back at its launch site within a single orbit or two. But the Earth's rotation meant the shuttle needed sufficient cross-range to do that because the landing site would have moved some distance to the east by the time the shuttle completed an orbit. Makes me wonder to what extent the Columbia accident was due, in part, to the unrealized plans for polar-orbit missions–might the wings not have been needed, or at least not in the same configuration, had polar launches not been planned?
Intercepting satellite on a single orbit flight is a joke at best.
As for wings, runway landing requires wings no matter what. Shuttle flaring capability already was somewhere between those of steam iron and a brick. And turbine engines were ditched pretty early in development process.
Landing without wings... Parachutes is pretty much the only option. And without flare aiming at a landing site is pretty difficult, if possible at all.
Where DoD actually destroyed the shuttle was in payload requirements (15 tons at 104% and 30 tons at 109% IIRC). That shaped entire program into a monstrous thing.
What I think I recall reading was that it was the particular delta-wing design they used that was necessitated by Defense Department requirements and that some other design (I do not know the details) had been proposed prior to various specification changes. It certainly seems like some form of delta wing was needed given the hypersonic velocities achieved. The Boeing 2707 studies show why a swing-wing design would have been impractical (recognizing that was to have been a passenger aircraft, of course, but the issue of the weight penalty that proved unacceptable for the 2707 would surely have been a significant issue).
Looks like delta wing was the baseline pretty early in the program
(https://www.spaceline.org/spacelineorg/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/word-image-10.jpeg)
Quote from: GaryV on April 28, 2023, 04:44:54 PM
Our college choir stayed with families while on tour. In small-town Iowa, they didn't lock the house doors. In fact one time when they were going on vacation for a while and thought it might be a good idea to lock up, they had to search for the keys.
Family vacations were the only times we locked the house when I was growing up. We used to joke that a robber could tell we were out of town because the doors were locked.
As for the car, we only locked it during zucchini season, or else we'd come out from a store to find bags of them in our backseat that some kind fellow had decided we wanted.
I have to use my iPhone in order to access a security feature on my work computer.
I'm also wondering if we'll be seeing an increase in demand for belt holsters for keeping and carrying cell phones as time passes. I normally use one for my cell phone and IMHO, it is much safer and more secure than keeping it in a pocket.
Mike
Quote from: mgk920 on April 30, 2023, 03:19:04 AM
I'm also wondering if we'll be seeing an increase in demand for belt holsters for keeping and carrying cell phones as time passes. I normally use one for my cell phone and IMHO, it is much safer and more secure than keeping it in a pocket.
I would be surprised. They were kind of a thing for a while but they never really took off.
Quote from: mgk920 on April 30, 2023, 03:19:04 AM
I'm also wondering if we'll be seeing an increase in demand for belt holsters for keeping and carrying cell phones as time passes. I normally use one for my cell phone and IMHO, it is much safer and more secure than keeping it in a pocket.
Mike
Out of curiosity, why safer and more secure than in a pocket? If anything, not having it in a pocket makes it more visible.
Quote from: mgk920 on April 30, 2023, 03:19:04 AM
I'm also wondering if we'll be seeing an increase in demand for belt holsters for keeping and carrying cell phones as time passes. I normally use one for my cell phone and IMHO, it is much safer and more secure than keeping it in a pocket.
Mike
These were used in the 90s for pagers, often came with early versions of cell phones I'm the late 90s and early 00s, but never caught on. A lot of clothing, especially shirts in the summer, don't require belts to begin with.
My last three phone cases have had snap-on covers with clips that could be used to secure them to a belt or waistband. This allows the phone to be carried hands-free outside the pocket, which minimizes screen/camera lens scratching from pocket litter (like keys) and allows the use of more and better ballistic padding. However, it makes it more difficult to bend over or to wear clothing (such as a shirt or blazer) that drapes over the waist. If the phone is uncovered, it becomes more vulnerable to casual theft. Wearing it on the waist also establishes the snap fitting or quick-release assembly as a critical point of failure--if the phone pops out or releases prematurely, it tends to be supported on only one end if at all, and thus is more likely to fall.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 30, 2023, 11:42:01 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on April 30, 2023, 03:19:04 AM
I'm also wondering if we'll be seeing an increase in demand for belt holsters for keeping and carrying cell phones as time passes. I normally use one for my cell phone and IMHO, it is much safer and more secure than keeping it in a pocket.
Mike
Out of curiosity, why safer and more secure than in a pocket? If anything, not having it in a pocket makes it more visible.
If you're talking about a shirt pocket, there's the danger of it slipping out when bending over. Such as when flushing a toilet. (No, that's never happened to me).
Quote from: dlsterner on April 30, 2023, 05:11:21 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 30, 2023, 11:42:01 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on April 30, 2023, 03:19:04 AM
I'm also wondering if we'll be seeing an increase in demand for belt holsters for keeping and carrying cell phones as time passes. I normally use one for my cell phone and IMHO, it is much safer and more secure than keeping it in a pocket.
Mike
Out of curiosity, why safer and more secure than in a pocket? If anything, not having it in a pocket makes it more visible.
If you're talking about a shirt pocket, there's the danger of it slipping out when bending over. Such as when flushing a toilet. (No, that's never happened to me).
Many pockets are not sized for modern phones. Either fashion has to adjust, or phone size trend to reverse. I would definitely be happy to have a smaller phone, if one would be available
Quote from: dlsterner on April 30, 2023, 05:11:21 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 30, 2023, 11:42:01 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on April 30, 2023, 03:19:04 AM
I'm also wondering if we'll be seeing an increase in demand for belt holsters for keeping and carrying cell phones as time passes. I normally use one for my cell phone and IMHO, it is much safer and more secure than keeping it in a pocket.
Mike
Out of curiosity, why safer and more secure than in a pocket? If anything, not having it in a pocket makes it more visible.
If you're talking about a shirt pocket, there's the danger of it slipping out when bending over. Such as when flushing a toilet. (No, that's never happened to me).
The grand majority uses their pants pocket.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 30, 2023, 06:28:30 PM
The grand majority uses their pants pocket.
Front or back? I use a front pocket. Seems many use a back pocket, at the risk of "butt-dials".
I have an older and smaller iPhone 8. Many of the newer models won't fit comfortably in my front pants pocket.
Quote from: oscar on April 30, 2023, 07:13:59 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 30, 2023, 06:28:30 PM
The grand majority uses their pants pocket.
Front or back? I use a front pocket. Seems many use a back pocket, at the risk of "butt-dials".
I have an older and smaller iPhone 8. Many of the newer models won't fit comfortably in my front pants pocket.
I would venture to say back, although I've always used front, including my LG v10 which was quite a large phone.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 30, 2023, 06:28:30 PM
Quote from: dlsterner on April 30, 2023, 05:11:21 PM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on April 30, 2023, 11:42:01 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on April 30, 2023, 03:19:04 AM
I'm also wondering if we'll be seeing an increase in demand for belt holsters for keeping and carrying cell phones as time passes. I normally use one for my cell phone and IMHO, it is much safer and more secure than keeping it in a pocket.
Mike
Out of curiosity, why safer and more secure than in a pocket? If anything, not having it in a pocket makes it more visible.
If you're talking about a shirt pocket, there's the danger of it slipping out when bending over. Such as when flushing a toilet. (No, that's never happened to me).
The grand majority uses their pants pocket.
I see lots of people with their phone stuck in their back pants pocket. The top of the phone sticks out in an invitation to fall out or get stolen.
I have the large S22 Ultra. I keep it in a front pants pocket and haven't had to worry about it falling out unless I'm headed to an amusement park to ride roller coasters.
I've always found it amusing that there has been talk for years about whether talking on a non-smartphone cellular phone (that's only sending or receiving when you're talking on it) runs a risk of brain damage due to radio waves, radiation, whatever, yet people don't seem to think twice about putting a mobile phone that constantly transmits and receives a cellular data signal in their front pants pocket.
I noted that to a colleague who had three kids. He used a belt clip for his phone. He immediately said, "Hmm, I have three kids," and moved his phone directly to the front and center of his belt (well, as close as the belt buckle would permit).
Quote from: Rothman on April 30, 2023, 08:53:01 PM
I have the large S22 Ultra. I keep it in a front pants pocket and haven't had to worry about it falling out unless I'm headed to an amusement park to ride roller coasters.
Similar. S23+ here. No issues with it fitting in pockets. If I'm going hiking with it, I put it in a zippered pocket.
Quote from: oscar on April 30, 2023, 07:13:59 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 30, 2023, 06:28:30 PM
The grand majority uses their pants pocket.
Front or back? I use a front pocket. Seems many use a back pocket, at the risk of "butt-dials".
I have an older and smaller iPhone 8. Many of the newer models won't fit comfortably in my front pants pocket.
The iPhone 6 is more or less dead. I'm sure the 6s and 7 will be dead soon, which means the 8 doesn't have a lot of time left before it goes belly-up obsolete.
The iPhone SE is a good model to have. It links the smaller size of the 6/7/8 with modern design.
My iPhone 8 is on its last legs. The battery is going bad, and I made the mistake of dropping it last November and cracking the screen. Fortunately, AT&T is practically giving away newer iPhones at this point (not the 14, yet, but 13 and older, yes.)
Quote from: Road Hog on May 10, 2023, 11:16:41 PM
My iPhone 8 is on its last legs. The battery is going bad, and I made the mistake of dropping it last November and cracking the screen. Fortunately, AT&T is practically giving away newer iPhones at this point (not the 14, yet, but 13 and older, yes.)
I got a quick and inexpensive replacement (under $50) for my iPhone 8's battery, so if it's just a battery problem it's non-fatal. That said, I'm probably going to upgrade anyway in the next few months.
My iPhone SE (the first one, between 5 and 6) is still going strong except for battery life. I'm not getting any bugs, force restarts, or anything like that.
Quote from: 1 on May 11, 2023, 07:34:19 AM
My iPhone SE (the first one, between 5 and 6) is still going strong except for battery life. I'm not getting any bugs, force restarts, or anything like that.
Yes, but how many apps will the phone not run now because you can't update the OS?
That's the only reason I updated my phone from the 6 to the SE 2020. A whole bunch of apps would no longer function.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 11, 2023, 01:49:09 PM
Quote from: 1 on May 11, 2023, 07:34:19 AM
My iPhone SE (the first one, between 5 and 6) is still going strong except for battery life. I'm not getting any bugs, force restarts, or anything like that.
Yes, but how many apps will the phone not run now because you can't update the OS?
None so far, although I prefer using my laptop or the phone's Safari browser over installing apps.
Quote from: hbelkins on May 11, 2023, 01:49:09 PM
Quote from: 1 on May 11, 2023, 07:34:19 AM
My iPhone SE (the first one, between 5 and 6) is still going strong except for battery life. I'm not getting any bugs, force restarts, or anything like that.
Yes, but how many apps will the phone not run now because you can't update the OS?
That's the only reason I updated my phone from the 6 to the SE 2020. A whole bunch of apps would no longer function.
I was forced into some action when LTE calls became mandatory in winter 2022. While I was able to find a workaround and use older phone until black friday, I still decided to upgrade on BF - for battery life if nothing else. Replacing battery would cost about the same anyway.
An interesting observation from this past weekend. Officially, MLB has for a few years now made a stink that you need the Ballpark app to get into a ball game, they will not accept printed tickets anymore.
Well, I showed up early for a game at Angels Stadium and happened to be walking right past the sales windows on my way in. There were a few people at them so I decided to linger and watch what happened when someone bought a ticket for that day's game right there at the ballpark. Sure enough, at the end of the transaction... they were handed a paper ticket.
So there's a workaround to attending a baseball game without a smartphone, though it will only work for games that do not sell out before game time and your choice of seats may be more limited.
Quote from: Duke87 on May 11, 2023, 06:46:09 PM
An interesting observation from this past weekend. Officially, MLB has for a few years now made a stink that you need the Ballpark app to get into a ball game, they will not accept printed tickets anymore.
Well, I showed up early for a game at Angels Stadium and happened to be walking right past the sales windows on my way in. There were a few people at them so I decided to linger and watch what happened when someone bought a ticket for that day's game right there at the ballpark. Sure enough, at the end of the transaction... they were handed a paper ticket.
So there's a workaround to attending a baseball game without a smartphone, though it will only work for games that do not sell out before game time and your choice of seats may be more limited.
My experience is with AAA minor league, but you probably can do the same thing in the Majors by placing your game tickets on Will Call and picking them up at the booth.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on May 11, 2023, 09:42:15 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on May 11, 2023, 06:46:09 PM
An interesting observation from this past weekend. Officially, MLB has for a few years now made a stink that you need the Ballpark app to get into a ball game, they will not accept printed tickets anymore.
Well, I showed up early for a game at Angels Stadium and happened to be walking right past the sales windows on my way in. There were a few people at them so I decided to linger and watch what happened when someone bought a ticket for that day's game right there at the ballpark. Sure enough, at the end of the transaction... they were handed a paper ticket.
So there's a workaround to attending a baseball game without a smartphone, though it will only work for games that do not sell out before game time and your choice of seats may be more limited.
My experience is with AAA minor league, but you probably can do the same thing in the Majors by placing your game tickets on Will Call and picking them up at the booth.
If they offer will call as an option, sure.
I'm sure I've said this six or seven times in this thread already, but the no-paper-tickets rule is so that the major leagues can control the resale market. Since the minor leagues aren't cash cows for anyone, they're unlikely to change their practices.
Dropped the guillotine today on my old 8 and am right now the proud owner of a 13. Transfer process took about 2 minutes. Made a work call already on it and it bipped. (Is that the slang?)
To answer the OP question, sorry but evolving tech requires occasional changes. Even extreme olds of the time wouldn't be caught without a radio in 1930, a telephone in 1940, a television in 1970, some sort of desktop in 2000 or a smartphone in 2020. So yes.
I have a smartphone but use it as little as possible. I question what the benefit to me (rather than the tie-wearers) is for doing many of these tasks on a smartphone rather than a desktop. Often, it turns out there isn't any–it's just that it's a lot easier to get people to think and act and spend money the way the powers that be want you to on a smartphone rather than a desktop. You can use an adblocker to remove ads from Gloplr.com in Firefox, but you can't block ads if they con you into using the Gloplr app.
Quote from: Road Hog on May 12, 2023, 07:57:21 PM
To answer the OP question, sorry but evolving tech requires occasional changes. Even extreme olds of the time wouldn't be caught without a radio in 1930, a telephone in 1940, a television in 1970, some sort of desktop in 2000 or a smartphone in 2020. So yes.
We had a party line back in the 1960s. Cost a lot less, for people who didn't make a lot of calls and were able to share.
My grandparents had a party line well into the 70s, probably into the early 80s. Their ring was one long and one short.
My grandmother waited as long as she could to pay the extra money each month for a touch-tone phone (as opposed to a rotary dial phone). I think she also leased a phone rather than buying one since it was cheaper per month, but if she did, then she should have known she was paying more in the long run.
Having to pay for "touch tone" service at all was a crock. It saved the phone company money. The process of dialing occupies a circuit at the central office for the entire time the number is being dialed, say 30 seconds or so for rotary dial. If the caller was using touch-tone, they could dial in less time, say 10 seconds, and the phone company needs only 1/3 the circuits. Worldwide that adds up and more than pays for touch tone equipment at central offices and each user's phone.
Quote from: golden eagle on April 29, 2023, 05:29:42 PM
I have to use my iPhone in order to access a security feature on my work computer.
I use my iPhone to type in a generated key to access my secure applications and services, but will probably switch over to a hard USB-C key in the future. It's more stable and secure than my phone (if it gets stolen or lost or disabled).
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 12, 2023, 08:34:33 PMI have a smartphone but use it as little as possible. I question what the benefit to me (rather than the tie-wearers) is for doing many of these tasks on a smartphone rather than a desktop.
Why do you consider it a "either-or" situation?
In my case, my phone is also my personal organizer. Since my calendar and contacts are on the cloud, they can be accessed either through the desktop or smart phone. For management of my personal calendar or contacts, I find that it is easier on a desktop with a mouse and keyboard to manipulate the data. Having said that, it is easy to put in the preliminary information for a new contact or appointment on my phone, or even duplicate an existing appointment with new date and time. If I have an address entered, I just touch the address to open up the mapping app and set up navigation.
Quote from: seicer on May 15, 2023, 11:57:41 AM
Quote from: golden eagle on April 29, 2023, 05:29:42 PM
I have to use my iPhone in order to access a security feature on my work computer.
I use my iPhone to type in a generated key to access my secure applications and services, but will probably switch over to a hard USB-C key in the future. It's more stable and secure than my phone (if it gets stolen or lost or disabled).
I have a smart phone app that is required as part of a two-step login process to my work network remotely.
Quote from: ZLoth on May 15, 2023, 02:26:40 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 12, 2023, 08:34:33 PMI have a smartphone but use it as little as possible. I question what the benefit to me (rather than the tie-wearers) is for doing many of these tasks on a smartphone rather than a desktop.
Why do you consider it a "either-or" situation?
In my case, my phone is also my personal organizer. Since my calendar and contacts are on the cloud, they can be accessed either through the desktop or smart phone. For management of my personal calendar or contacts, I find that it is easier on a desktop with a mouse and keyboard to manipulate the data. Having said that, it is easy to put in the preliminary information for a new contact or appointment on my phone, or even duplicate an existing appointment with new date and time. If I have an address entered, I just touch the address to open up the mapping app and set up navigation.
At home, I will use my laptop for anything I can use it for, my phone is mostly just for texting and phone calls. However, I've become very reliant on it outside the home for keeping in touch via social media, GPS, finding restaurants, etc.
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 28, 2023, 04:34:10 PM
Quote from: kalvado on April 28, 2023, 04:32:28 PMI just happened to see a few videos about lock picking.... General purpose locks are meant only to protect against honest people, as it seems.
Lock picking is fun!
Its interesting to me, not in a criminal sort of way, more of a hacker-ish kinda way. I just like to know how stuff works.
Late Tuesday evening, I replaced my cable modem, as I thought the old one was starting to have issues.
After I had the new cable modem connected, I wasn't able to access the sandbox where users can use an automated process to activate their new modems.
So, I called Comcast...er, Xfinity customer support. After some arguing with the voice menu system, I was finally able to convince it to connect me to a human.
It insisted on sending me via SMS a link to a text chat session. If I hadn't had a smartphone (or if my cell reception at my home were any worse)....
Sure, the use of landlines may be declining, but they're still being used today, so smartphones are still optional. In fact, my parents never felt the need to use a cellular phone, not even when they first came out. I may have one now, but using certain features (autocorrect and voice calling) can be such a pain in the ass.