Just what the thread title suggests: A discussion of control cities for Interstate highways that are not located at major intersections.
Most of West Virginia's qualify. I-64 has no major junctions in West Virginia, save for Charleston and Bluefield. Appropriate control cities would be Lexington, Ky. westbound at Charleston, and Lexington, Va., eastbound at Beckley.
Using this criteria, I-77 should be Cambridge, Ohio north from Charleston, and Wytheville, Va., south of Beckley. I-79 should be Morgantown and then Washington, Pa.. I-68 should be Hancock, Md.. I-70 should be Cambridge and Washington, and I-81 should be Hagerstown, Md., and either Strasburg or Front Royal, Va.
In Kentucky, the offenders are I-64's use of Ashland (should be Charleston under the above criteria) and Paducah on I-24 (St. Louis is probably the best choice).
This doesn't include routes like Kentucky's parkways, which generally don't serve locales with major intersections. They're often used not only for through traffic, but point-to-point travel (such as between Hyden and Hazard on the Hal Rogers, or Russell Springs and Somerset on the Cumberland.)
Thoughts? This is opposite to some of the reasoning that intersection points like Wytheville or Mt. Vernon shouldn't be used.
What do you define as a "major" intersection? Southbound on I-25 in Denver, the control city is Colorado Springs, which makes perfect since. CO Springs isn't at an interstate-interstate intersection though, so I suppose for the purposes of this thread, you would want Albuquerque, which is the control city on I-25 southbound out of the springs.
Every city that's on only a single 2di would qualify I guess. San Francisco for I-80, Norfolk for I-64, Las Vegas for I-15, Ft Wayne for I-69, Tulsa for I-44, Peoria for I-74, the list goes on.
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 02, 2021, 02:37:31 PM
San Francisco for I-80, Norfolk for I-64
I think cities at the ends of interstates (or just past the border, like I-5's "Vancouver BC" heading north from Seattle) should also qualify.
This sounds like, for example, York, Pennsylvania shouldn't be a control city for I-83, since it doesn't intersect any 2DIs (or 3DIs) there, save for its own business route.
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 02, 2021, 02:37:31 PM
Every city that's on only a single 2di would qualify I guess. San Francisco for I-80, Norfolk for I-64, Las Vegas for I-15, Ft Wayne for I-69, Tulsa for I-44, Peoria for I-74, the list goes on.
Should Las Vegas count as a major junction? I know I-11 doesn't directly meet I-15, but it is in the general vicinity and meets both I-215 and I-515. Eventually, I-11 may even make it to Las Vegas proper. It depends on NDOT's plans.
Quote from: jlam on October 02, 2021, 02:54:07 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 02, 2021, 02:37:31 PM
Every city that's on only a single 2di would qualify I guess. San Francisco for I-80, Norfolk for I-64, Las Vegas for I-15, Ft Wayne for I-69, Tulsa for I-44, Peoria for I-74, the list goes on.
Should Las Vegas count as a major junction? I know I-11 doesn't directly meet I-15, but it is in the general vicinity and meets both I-215 and I-515. Eventually, I-11 may even make it to Las Vegas proper. It depends on NDOT's plans.
Maybe I should count Baltimore as not being a major junction too, because I-95, I-70, I-83 and I-97 doesn't meet each other there :-D
Mackinac Bridge on I-75.
Sault Ste Marie as well, unless the "end/border" exception applies.
Is this supposed to be rare? Off the top of my head:
I-55: Grenada, MS- Mccomb, MS- Cape Girardeau, MO
I-59: Gadsden, AL
I-57: Kankakee and Cairo, IL
I-88: DeKalb
I-74: Peoria? The only Interstate junctions are I-155 to Lincoln and onward to Springfield and STL via I-55 and I-474/Peoria Bypass. Peoria is the 2nd Largest city in the state (pretty sure?) and is a viable Control City, imho
I-72: Decatur, Jacksonville (unless you consider US 51 and 67 "major" )
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 02, 2021, 06:21:37 PM
Peoria is the 2nd Largest city in the state (pretty sure?)
8th largest, behind Chicago, Aurora, Naperville, Joliet, Rockford, Springfield and Elgin.
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 02, 2021, 07:32:34 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 02, 2021, 06:21:37 PM
Peoria is the 2nd Largest city in the state (pretty sure?)
8th largest, behind Chicago, Aurora, Naperville, Joliet, Rockford, Springfield and Elgin.
Still notable and worthy of CC status
For that matter, I-88 and I-290 using Aurora also fits this thread
Cape Cod
Indiana uses:
Peoria for I-74 west from Indy which is not at a major junction
Fort Wayne for I-69 north from Indy which is not at a major junction
Evansville for I-69 south from Bloomington which is near I-64 but not really
Dayton for I-70 east from Indy which is close to I-75 [closer than Evansville is to I-64]
Ohio for I-80/90 east from Chicago which has a lot of major junctions but lots of parts that aren't near them.
Quote from: cabiness42 on October 02, 2021, 08:13:41 PM
Dayton for I-70 west from Indy
I thought St Louis is used on I-70 WB from Indy.
Technically almost every control city on 80 qualifies except Sacramento (5), Salt Lake City (15), Council Bluffs (29), and maybe Davenport (74), but Davenport is usually a secondary control so meh. It does not touch 25 in Cheyenne (just outside the city limits, therefore the control city itself is not technically at a major junction), 35 in Des Moines (ditto), 75 in Toledo, or 76 in Youngstown. There are 2di junctions in Chicago, Cleveland, and New York but not so far as I-80 is concerned since it never enters those cities. I know this isn't really what you're looking for but it just struck me as interesting.
I was considering California's control cities, and there are many that aren't at Interstate junctions, but are at junctions with significant state or US highways.
I-5: Redding (CA 299)
I-8: El Centro (CA 86), Yuma (US 95)
I-10: Santa Monica (CA 1), Redlands (CA 210), Indio (CA 86), Blythe (US 95) -- "other Desert Cities" was always a secondary control
I-40: Needles (US 95)
I-80: San Francisco (US 101), Reno (US 395)
A couple of former control cities, now mostly or entirely phased out, might fit better -- "Truckee" for I-80 and "Baker" for I-15.
There should be at least 1 control city in every state that the route passes through.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 05, 2021, 02:55:18 PM
There should be at least 1 control city in every state that the route passes through.
I-684 Connecticut
I-15 Arizona
I-76 Nebraska
I-59 Georgia
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 02, 2021, 07:46:56 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on October 02, 2021, 07:32:34 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 02, 2021, 06:21:37 PM
Peoria is the 2nd Largest city in the state (pretty sure?)
8th largest, behind Chicago, Aurora, Naperville, Joliet, Rockford, Springfield and Elgin.
Still notable and worthy of CC status
For that matter, I-88 and I-290 using Aurora also fits this thread
Peoria IL Metro is 3rd largest, after Chicago and 'Metro East' IL burbs of St. Louis area.
Quote from: 1 on October 05, 2021, 03:06:32 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 05, 2021, 02:55:18 PM
There should be at least 1 control city in every state that the route passes through.
I-684 Connecticut
I-15 Arizona
I-76 Nebraska
I-59 Georgia
I-684 is an exception as it doesn't have any Connecticut exits. For the others:
I-15 AZ: Littlefield NB S of Littlefield and SB N of Littlefield, otherwise St George and Las Vegas
I-76 NE: Big Springs/Omaha EB, WB Denver/Fort Morgan
I-59: Trenton NB S of Trenton and SB N of Trenton, otherwise Gadsden/Birmingham and Chattanooga
Plenty in PA along I-80 (Sharon, Bloomsburg, Stroudsburg and Delaware Water Gap. And then there's Netcong in NJ
Easton, PA and Clinton, NJ along I-78
New London, CT for I-95
Brattleboro, VT for I-91
Danbury, CT for I-84 (US 7 isn't significant).
Watertown, NY and Roanoke for I-81
Jamestown for the eastern I-86
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 05, 2021, 02:55:18 PM
There should be at least 1 control city in every state that the route passes through.
Counterpoint: 80 should have zero control cities in PA.
Quote from: jaehak on October 06, 2021, 02:02:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 05, 2021, 02:55:18 PM
There should be at least 1 control city in every state that the route passes through.
Counterpoint: 80 should have zero control cities in PA.
The state rule should be an exception to whatever other criteria exist, ie. a fallback to ensure that each state is recognized as being on the route.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 02, 2021, 02:02:15 PM
Just what the thread title suggests: A discussion of control cities for Interstate highways that are not located at major intersections.
Most of West Virginia's qualify. I-64 has no major junctions in West Virginia, save for Charleston and Bluefield. Appropriate control cities would be Lexington, Ky. westbound at Charleston, and Lexington, Va., eastbound at Beckley.
Using this criteria, I-77 should be Cambridge, Ohio north from Charleston, and Wytheville, Va., south of Beckley. I-79 should be Morgantown and then Washington, Pa.. I-68 should be Hancock, Md.. I-70 should be Cambridge and Washington, and I-81 should be Hagerstown, Md., and either Strasburg or Front Royal, Va.
In Kentucky, the offenders are I-64's use of Ashland (should be Charleston under the above criteria) and Paducah on I-24 (St. Louis is probably the best choice).
This doesn't include routes like Kentucky's parkways, which generally don't serve locales with major intersections. They're often used not only for through traffic, but point-to-point travel (such as between Hyden and Hazard on the Hal Rogers, or Russell Springs and Somerset on the Cumberland.)
Thoughts? This is opposite to some of the reasoning that intersection points like Wytheville or Mt. Vernon shouldn't be used.
So what are the current junction cities, having never been there?
Quote from: epzik8 on October 02, 2021, 02:52:40 PM
This sounds like, for example, York, Pennsylvania shouldn't be a control city for I-83, since it doesn't intersect any 2DIs (or 3DIs) there, save for its own business route.
What should it be, Harrisburg, PA?
I could say the same thing in NJ, I-78 W has 'Clinton' when it should be 'Allentown, PA' and I-80 has 'Delaware Water Gap' when it should be 'WBS.'
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 06, 2021, 03:08:45 PM
Quote from: jaehak on October 06, 2021, 02:02:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 05, 2021, 02:55:18 PM
There should be at least 1 control city in every state that the route passes through.
Counterpoint: 80 should have zero control cities in PA.
The state rule should be an exception to whatever other criteria exist, ie. a fallback to ensure that each state is recognized as being on the route.
The alternative probably should be signing smaller towns that are major decision points for travelers.
I've done the I-99/I-80/I-81 combo a few times. Bellefonte and Hazleton would be appropriate, as they are the nearest towns to those exits.
Similar to Front Royal or Strasburg (Front Royal is usually used, but Strasburg is closer) for I-66.
Quote from: hbelkins on October 02, 2021, 02:02:15 PM
Just what the thread title suggests: A discussion of control cities for Interstate highways that are not located at major intersections.
Most of West Virginia's qualify. I-64 has no major junctions in West Virginia, save for Charleston and Bluefield. Appropriate control cities would be Lexington, Ky. westbound at Charleston, and Lexington, Va., eastbound at Beckley.
Using this criteria, I-77 should be Cambridge, Ohio north from Charleston, and Wytheville, Va., south of Beckley. I-79 should be Morgantown and then Washington, Pa.. I-68 should be Hancock, Md.. I-70 should be Cambridge and Washington, and I-81 should be Hagerstown, Md., and either Strasburg or Front Royal, Va.
In Kentucky, the offenders are I-64's use of Ashland (should be Charleston under the above criteria) and Paducah on I-24 (St. Louis is probably the best choice).
This doesn't include routes like Kentucky's parkways, which generally don't serve locales with major intersections. They're often used not only for through traffic, but point-to-point travel (such as between Hyden and Hazard on the Hal Rogers, or Russell Springs and Somerset on the Cumberland.)
Thoughts? This is opposite to some of the reasoning that intersection points like Wytheville or Mt. Vernon shouldn't be used.
Quote from: bluecountry on October 06, 2021, 03:14:13 PM
So what are the current junction cities, having never been there?
Assuming you mean control cities (WVDOH calls them Control Destinations), here's the list (as best as I can recall, might need some corrections):
I-64 Eastbound: Charleston, Beckley, Lewisburg/White Sulphur Springs, Lexington
I-64 Westbound: Lewisburg, (Sam Black Church*), Beckley, Charleston, Huntington, Ashland
I-77 Northbound: Bluefield, Beckley, Charleston, Parkersburg, Marietta
I-77 Southbound: Parkersburg, Charleston, Beckley, Charlotte (at the I-64 split), Bluefield, Wytheville
I-79 Northbound: Clarksburg, Fairmont, Morgantown, Washington
I-79 Southbound: Morgantown, Fairmont, Clarksburg, Charleston
I-68 Eastbound: Cumberland
I-68 Westbound: Morgantown
I-70 Eastbound: Wheeling, Washington
I-70 Westbound: Wheeling, Columbus
I-81 Northbound: Martinsburg, Hagerstown
I-81 Southbound: Martinsburg, Winchester
*Sam Black Church was the traditional control city for westbound I-64 coming out of Lewisburg representing the connection to US-60 prior to completion of the Interstate. Distance to Charleston via US-60 was also listed along this stretch of I-64. After completion, it took a while to get these corrected (but I'm pretty sure that the distance to Charleston was corrected).
Populations (2020 Estimates):1. Charleston (45,879)
2. Huntington (44,934)
3. Morgantown (30,847)
4. Parkersburg (29,009)
5. Wheeling (26,283)
6. Fairmont (18,370)
7. Weirton (18,068)
8. Martinsburg (17,514)
9. Beckley (15,805)
10. Clarksburg (15,424)
33. Lewisburg (3,766)
52. White Sulphur Springs (2,325)
Out of State Control Destinations (2019 Estimates)Ashland KY (20,146)
Cumberland MD (19,284)
Marietta OH (13,356)
Wytheville VA (7,921)
Lexington VA (7,446)
Quote from: Dirt Roads on October 06, 2021, 11:47:44 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on October 02, 2021, 02:02:15 PM
Just what the thread title suggests: A discussion of control cities for Interstate highways that are not located at major intersections.
Most of West Virginia's qualify. I-64 has no major junctions in West Virginia, save for Charleston and Bluefield. Appropriate control cities would be Lexington, Ky. westbound at Charleston, and Lexington, Va., eastbound at Beckley.
Using this criteria, I-77 should be Cambridge, Ohio north from Charleston, and Wytheville, Va., south of Beckley. I-79 should be Morgantown and then Washington, Pa.. I-68 should be Hancock, Md.. I-70 should be Cambridge and Washington, and I-81 should be Hagerstown, Md., and either Strasburg or Front Royal, Va.
In Kentucky, the offenders are I-64's use of Ashland (should be Charleston under the above criteria) and Paducah on I-24 (St. Louis is probably the best choice).
This doesn't include routes like Kentucky's parkways, which generally don't serve locales with major intersections. They're often used not only for through traffic, but point-to-point travel (such as between Hyden and Hazard on the Hal Rogers, or Russell Springs and Somerset on the Cumberland.)
Thoughts? This is opposite to some of the reasoning that intersection points like Wytheville or Mt. Vernon shouldn't be used.
Quote from: bluecountry on October 06, 2021, 03:14:13 PM
So what are the current junction cities, having never been there?
Assuming you mean control cities (WVDOH calls them Control Destinations), here's the list (as best as I can recall, might need some corrections):
I-64 Eastbound: Charleston, Beckley, Lewisburg/White Sulphur Springs, Lexington
I-64 Westbound: Lewisburg, (Sam Black Church*), Beckley, Charleston, Huntington, Ashland
I-77 Northbound: Bluefield, Beckley, Charleston, Parkersburg, Marietta
I-77 Southbound: Parkersburg, Charleston, Beckley, Charlotte (at the I-64 split), Bluefield, Wytheville
I-79 Northbound: Clarksburg, Fairmont, Morgantown, Washington
I-79 Southbound: Morgantown, Fairmont, Clarksburg, Charleston
I-68 Eastbound: Cumberland
I-68 Westbound: Morgantown
I-70 Eastbound: Wheeling, Washington
I-70 Westbound: Wheeling, Columbus
I-81 Northbound: Martinsburg, Hagerstown
I-81 Southbound: Martinsburg, Winchester
*Sam Black Church was the traditional control city for westbound I-64 coming out of Lewisburg representing the connection to US-60 prior to completion of the Interstate. Distance to Charleston via US-60 was also listed along this stretch of I-64. After completion, it took a while to get these corrected (but I'm pretty sure that the distance to Charleston was corrected).
Populations (2020 Estimates):
1. Charleston (45,879)
2. Huntington (44,934)
3. Morgantown (30,847)
4. Parkersburg (29,009)
5. Wheeling (26,283)
6. Fairmont (18,370)
7. Weirton (18,068)
8. Martinsburg (17,514)
9. Beckley (15,805)
10. Clarksburg (15,424)
14. Bluefield (9,505), Combined WV/VA (14,466, 2019 Estimate)
33. Lewisburg (3,766)
52. White Sulphur Springs (2,325)
Out of State Control Destinations (2019 Estimates)
Hagerstown MD (40,100)
Winchester VA (28,078)
Ashland KY (20,146)
Cumberland MD (19,284)
Marietta OH (13,356)
Wytheville VA (7,921)
Lexington VA (7,446)
Quote from: jaehak on October 06, 2021, 02:02:07 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 05, 2021, 02:55:18 PM
There should be at least 1 control city in every state that the route passes through.
Counterpoint: 80 should have zero control cities in PA.
I could not agree more strongly.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 05, 2021, 02:55:18 PM
There should be at least 1 control city in every state that the route passes through.
Why? What's the point of I-15 having an Arizonan control city?
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 05, 2021, 02:55:18 PM
There should be at least 1 control city in every state that the route passes through.
I dare you to suggest a reasonable control city for I-24 in Georgia.
Quote from: US 89 on October 07, 2021, 01:33:16 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 05, 2021, 02:55:18 PM
There should be at least 1 control city in every state that the route passes through.
I dare you to suggest a reasonable control city for I-24 in Georgia.
"To I-59"
Quote from: GaryV on October 02, 2021, 03:37:48 PM
Mackinac Bridge on I-75.
Sault Ste Marie as well, unless the "end/border" exception applies.
I would say the bridge connecting the Upper and Lower Peninsula's is a major junction in itself.
Then there is the polar opposite of this thread: When the Interstate Junction IS the Control City!
Gotta hand it to IDOT, sometimes...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.billburmaster.com%2Frmsandw%2Fillinois%2Fimages%2F24wto57s450818.jpg&hash=8fed2cd89e85ad64c33730d7c7fc0662da9b0d4e)
Image sourced from http://www.billburmaster.com/rmsandw/illinois/interstate/24.html
Quote from: 1 on October 07, 2021, 01:53:16 PM
Quote from: US 89 on October 07, 2021, 01:33:16 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 05, 2021, 02:55:18 PM
There should be at least 1 control city in every state that the route passes through.
I dare you to suggest a reasonable control city for I-24 in Georgia.
"To I-59"
That would be very IDOT-esque for GDOT
Can't believe I forgot this one: I-495 Riverhead
I-94 in MN using St. Cloud. Most people's trips are going to end there or continue on I-94, since MN 24 southeast of town is the "popular" connection to US 10.
This would mean Austin, El Paso, Corpus Christi, Galveston, Waco, Wichita Falls, and any city in the Rio grande valley would not be control cities.
At what point is a city big enough that the fact that it's not at a major junction doesn't matter?
100K? 250K?
Quote from: webny99 on October 08, 2021, 11:21:25 PM
At what point is a city big enough that the fact that it's not at a major junction doesn't matter?
100K? 250K?
Well there are a number of factors that might make a city justified as a control city without it being a major junction that have nothing to do with population.
And even population I would say is relative. In the more desolate parts of the west a city of 30k or less might make a reasonable control city. In other areas a higher population is probably warranted.
In a few cases, such as I-80 in PA, if we were to implement a rule requiring a control city in every state the designation would simply have to go to the most significant city on the route.
Quote from: 1 on October 07, 2021, 01:53:16 PM
Quote from: US 89 on October 07, 2021, 01:33:16 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 05, 2021, 02:55:18 PM
There should be at least 1 control city in every state that the route passes through.
I dare you to suggest a reasonable control city for I-24 in Georgia.
"To I-59"
Also "To I-695" for I-70 EB in MD :sombrero:
In the last few years or so, I've been seeing Conway used as a control city along I-40 here in central Arkansas, especially on newer signs. I don't think I have any photos but I could try to grab some the next time I go to Conway.