Has there ever been any talk about decking over the various entrances/exits from the Lincoln Tunnel?
It seems like it would be a great use of urban space, where if we have to have real estate set aside for major roads in the middle of the largest city, multi-purpose it either by burying or capping it.
Sounds like a maintenance nightmare. NYC already has far too few roads, lets not screw up the ones that are there
As we've seen with Hudson Yards, there is value in lidding otherwise unusable space. I could see these happening. I bet there's already some discussion if you dig deep enough.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 06, 2021, 03:24:24 PM
Sounds like a maintenance nightmare. NYC already has far too few roads, lets not screw up the ones that are there
It could be a good thing for maintenance when you combine a lidding plan with some road rehabilitation. The issue with lids is the additional cost.
I agree that maintenance is a big issue we are facing, but the easiest way to solve that is to reduce the number of lane mileage from the highway system, such as by removing roads rather than rebuilding them. That's not always possible, but building more roads is not going to make the situation better.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 06, 2021, 05:05:17 PM
As we've seen with Hudson Yards, there is value in lidding otherwise unusable space. I could see these happening. I bet there's already some discussion if you dig deep enough.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 06, 2021, 03:24:24 PM
Sounds like a maintenance nightmare. NYC already has far too few roads, lets not screw up the ones that are there
It could be a good thing for maintenance when you combine a lidding plan with some road rehabilitation. The issue with lids is the additional cost.
I agree that maintenance is a big issue we are facing, but the easiest way to solve that is to reduce the number of lane mileage from the highway system, such as by removing roads rather than rebuilding them. That's not always possible, but building more roads is not going to make the situation better.
No that is just fixing one problem in the short term by making another one.
Building more roads actually does improve the situation, as it spreads traffic across more of them, and gives enough spare capacity that shutting one down for maintenance is much easier.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 06, 2021, 05:29:35 PM
No that is just fixing one problem in the short term by making another one.
Building more roads actually does improve the situation, as it spreads traffic across more of them, and gives enough spare capacity that shutting one down for maintenance is much easier.
But building more roads is also solving one problem by making another one. You've extended the life of a bridge...by building another bridge. Or whatever. Still two bridges that eventually need the same maintenance.
Removing the Lincoln Tunnel in particular would be a disaster. Is that seriously what you're proposing?
Quote from: 1 on October 06, 2021, 05:38:05 PM
Removing the Lincoln Tunnel in particular would be a disaster. Is that seriously what you're proposing?
He's referring to lids, sometimes called "decking," where you cover areas above a road that is sunken below street level, usually to provide open space.
Quote from: jakeroot on October 06, 2021, 05:36:32 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 06, 2021, 05:29:35 PM
No that is just fixing one problem in the short term by making another one.
Building more roads actually does improve the situation, as it spreads traffic across more of them, and gives enough spare capacity that shutting one down for maintenance is much easier.
But building more roads is also solving one problem by making another one. You've extended the life of a bridge...by building another bridge. Or whatever. Still two bridges that eventually need the same maintenance.
You don't get it.
You now have 2 pieces of infrastructure, either can be closed for maintenance without completely screwing up the road network. Maintenance is faster, safer, and often cheaper if the entire roadway can be closed and done without worrying about traffic on scene. They need not have the same maintenance schedule either, the one built later will not need the maintenance as soon, which gives more flexibility.
It seems like we're having two different discussions here.
Lidding depressed roads is perfectly fine, and I support it in general.
Removing roads should not be done except in extraordinary circumstances (e.g. the place is about to go underwater because the ground is sinking).
The two have nothing to do with each other.
Quote from: 1 on October 06, 2021, 07:25:08 PM
It seems like we're having two different discussions here.
Lidding depressed roads is perfectly fine, and I support it in general.
Removing roads should not be done except in extraordinary circumstances (e.g. the place is about to go underwater because the ground is sinking).
The two have nothing to do with each other.
Lidding is expensive and adds long term maintenance issues. If you are going to put a "lid" over a road, that "lid" should be a second road, for a local/express configuration.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 06, 2021, 07:30:01 PM
Quote from: 1 on October 06, 2021, 07:25:08 PM
It seems like we're having two different discussions here.
Lidding depressed roads is perfectly fine, and I support it in general.
Removing roads should not be done except in extraordinary circumstances (e.g. the place is about to go underwater because the ground is sinking).
The two have nothing to do with each other.
Lidding is expensive and adds long term maintenance issues. If you are going to put a "lid" over a road, that "lid" should be a second road, for a local/express configuration.
A lid can simply be walkable space if there are already parallel roads on each side. See here (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.8105588,-70.8762309,3a,75y,320.27h,82.86t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sJSfRf-MASn4D3gV7Kt2yiQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DJSfRf-MASn4D3gV7Kt2yiQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D181.38913%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656) as an example of a space that could have a lid (although not high-priority in this particular location), but a roadway lid would make no sense since it would be redundant to what already exists.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 06, 2021, 06:05:23 PM
You don't get it.
You now have 2 pieces of infrastructure, either can be closed for maintenance without completely screwing up the road network. Maintenance is faster, safer, and often cheaper if the entire roadway can be closed and done without worrying about traffic on scene. They need not have the same maintenance schedule either, the one built later will not need the maintenance as soon, which gives more flexibility.
Redundancy is brilliant and less disruptive when something major occurs. But it's still more expensive.
Quote from: HighwayStar on October 06, 2021, 07:30:01 PM
Lidding is expensive and adds long term maintenance issues.
How exactly? If you don't mind elaborating. If anything, I would think lidding is better because it protects the infrastructure from the elements, such as freeze-thaw cycles, snow, etc.