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National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: planxtymcgillicuddy on November 22, 2021, 07:42:38 PM

Title: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: planxtymcgillicuddy on November 22, 2021, 07:42:38 PM
What regions/sections of the US have benefitted the most from the Interstate system, and conversely, what regions have been hurt the most by it? And an extension of this, what Interstate corridors do you believe prosper the most, and what Interstate corridors do you believe hurt the most?
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 22, 2021, 08:16:57 PM
Any city in the interior of the US has benefited.  Prior to the interstate system, most large cities were located along waterways.  Goods could easily be transported via ship.  With the interstate system bringing a hub and spoke type network to cities, interior cities found themselves with the ability to help that freight move along.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: GCrites on November 22, 2021, 09:48:46 PM
Helped the most? The South and Florida. California had quite a bit too, but mostly for travel within the state.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: SkyPesos on November 22, 2021, 09:53:07 PM
Suburbia and the Sun Belt
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: hbelkins on November 23, 2021, 10:11:22 AM
Helped? All of them.

Hurt? Small towns on non-interstate corridors bypassed by the freeway system.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: Henry on November 23, 2021, 10:16:02 AM
Looking back on all the planning that has been going on for the past 65 years, I'd say that the big cities have been hurt by the system, mainly because of the freeway revolts that removed many of the corridors from their plans. Granted, the poorest areas were targeted in those cities, and they didn't even clear the slums like their names implied; instead, they sent the slums into even worse conditions than before, which, unfortunately, is still prevalent now.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 23, 2021, 10:19:24 AM
Not a region, but Trinidad, Colorado probably got hurt the most (of cities in Colorado) by the introduction of the interstate system when it completely bisected downtown.  It's a pretty area, and I can't help but think it would be a more popular tourist spot if it were able to maintain its historic city center.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on November 23, 2021, 11:07:17 AM
western nebraska. there's a town oh every 5-10 miles or so on us 30, then along comes i-80. now every one of those towns has a 'leg' out to the interstate with some weird indecipherable nebraska number on it, and a gas station there.

i would imagine all these towns were more than they are now before the interstate.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: Avalanchez71 on November 23, 2021, 12:25:38 PM
It hurt Wallace, ID.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: SEWIGuy on November 23, 2021, 12:30:07 PM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 23, 2021, 11:07:17 AM
western nebraska. there's a town oh every 5-10 miles or so on us 30, then along comes i-80. now every one of those towns has a 'leg' out to the interstate with some weird indecipherable nebraska number on it, and a gas station there.

i would imagine all these towns were more than they are now before the interstate.


Right.  But that's not just because of the interstate though.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: roadman65 on November 23, 2021, 12:38:50 PM
US 301 between Santee, SC and into Georgia.

The road is four lanes in SC due to it once being a major through route for those who didn't want to use the longer US 1 and much longer coastal US 17.   Even remnants of old roadside stands remain that relied on travelers who now use I-95 to go through SC.

Nowadays that stretch of Highway could be given a road diet and narrow it back down as traffic counts don't even warrant four lanes.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: Chris19001 on November 23, 2021, 03:31:23 PM
For "hurt"  I'd skip region and just nominate Chester, PA.  It lost both the shipyards and Baldwin locomotive since the Interstate Highway Act.  Now both are certainly indirect effects, and Chester has I-95 running through downtown, but that city is a mess in almost every way.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: Bruce on November 24, 2021, 03:17:07 AM
Hurt: Any city that had an interstate bisect a real neighborhood (which is most of them).

Interstates should have never been allowed to plow through cities. What a travesty.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
Quote from: Bruce on November 24, 2021, 03:17:07 AM
Hurt: Any city that had an interstate bisect a real neighborhood (which is most of them).

Interstates should have never been allowed to plow through cities. What a travesty.
Now would a city be anything what it is without the interstate? People tend to live along the road.
As for bisecting - look at the suburbs. There is development on both sides of highway creating similar geometry.
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: hotdogPi on November 24, 2021, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

It didn't happen with Evansville, IN.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:23:16 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 24, 2021, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

It didn't happen with Evansville, IN.
Only because people moved even further. -20% population over 60 years.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: SEWIGuy on November 24, 2021, 07:49:27 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
Quote from: Bruce on November 24, 2021, 03:17:07 AM
Hurt: Any city that had an interstate bisect a real neighborhood (which is most of them).

Interstates should have never been allowed to plow through cities. What a travesty.
Now would a city be anything what it is without the interstate? People tend to live along the road.
As for bisecting - look at the suburbs. There is development on both sides of highway creating similar geometry.
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.


Big cities would have been fine with the interstates running along the outskirts with arterials carrying the traffic into the city.  That's pretty much how it works in Europe.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: Rothman on November 24, 2021, 08:20:34 AM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on November 24, 2021, 07:49:27 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
Quote from: Bruce on November 24, 2021, 03:17:07 AM
Hurt: Any city that had an interstate bisect a real neighborhood (which is most of them).

Interstates should have never been allowed to plow through cities. What a travesty.
Now would a city be anything what it is without the interstate? People tend to live along the road.
As for bisecting - look at the suburbs. There is development on both sides of highway creating similar geometry.
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.


Big cities would have been fine with the interstates running along the outskirts with arterials carrying the traffic into the city.  That's pretty much how it works in Europe.
Big cities were fine with Interstates plowing through undesirable neighborhoods and facilitating suburb to core commuters.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: roadman65 on November 24, 2021, 08:37:09 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 24, 2021, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

It didn't happen with Evansville, IN.


It did in Kokomo in another part of the state. That is why the freeway was built for US 31, as the 1957 bypass just had the city expand outwards more. Now with an interchange on Markland Avenue which is just to the east of a highly developed area of retail, how long will it take to build more businesses in between?
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 24, 2021, 08:44:45 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:23:16 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 24, 2021, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

It didn't happen with Evansville, IN.
Only because people moved even further. -20% population over 60 years.

Fort Collins, Colorado.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: SkyPesos on November 24, 2021, 08:50:25 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 24, 2021, 08:37:09 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 24, 2021, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

It didn't happen with Evansville, IN.


It did in Kokomo in another part of the state. That is why the freeway was built for US 31, as the 1957 bypass just had the city expand outwards more. Now with an interchange on Markland Avenue which is just to the east of a highly developed area of retail, how long will it take to build more businesses in between?
Something similar with Kokomo seem to be happening in Myrtle Beach, SC too.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: US 89 on November 24, 2021, 08:59:08 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 08:44:45 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:23:16 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 24, 2021, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

It didn't happen with Evansville, IN.
Only because people moved even further. -20% population over 60 years.

Fort Collins, Colorado.

Fort Collins is different though because it's a college town. Colorado State is not about to pack up its entire campus and move just because an interstate got built 4 miles from downtown.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 24, 2021, 09:05:38 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 24, 2021, 08:59:08 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 08:44:45 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:23:16 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 24, 2021, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

It didn't happen with Evansville, IN.
Only because people moved even further. -20% population over 60 years.

Fort Collins, Colorado.

Fort Collins is different though because it's a college town. Colorado State is not about to pack up its entire campus and move just because an interstate got built 4 miles from downtown.

Fine. Go south then.  Loveland, Colorado.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 09:27:21 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 08:44:45 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:23:16 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 24, 2021, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

It didn't happen with Evansville, IN.
Only because people moved even further. -20% population over 60 years.

Fort Collins, Colorado.
And the point is?
How long did it take to walk across either Fort Collins or Loveland when the highway was built?
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on November 24, 2021, 10:12:10 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 08:44:45 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:23:16 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 24, 2021, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

It didn't happen with Evansville, IN.
Only because people moved even further. -20% population over 60 years.

Fort Collins, Colorado.

can't believe i missed that says guy lives ... well close to.. there.

windsor used to sit more or less in the center of a triangle, of which foco, loveland, and greeley were the vertices.

now windsor extends to i-25 (don't know if its actually in their city limits, but has windsor zip code and phone #'s). plus, with the (re?)-designation of that road westbound as co-392, that's no longer a good sneak into the south end. used to be really fast when it was just cr-30.

harmony used to be a fast 5 minute drive to the interstate when i was a kid (back when it was co-68), but with all the businesses along it, forget that. and now there's lights east of the interstate. the one for weitzel drive (aka walmart/costco) is just a a terrible intersection. another sign of my little town growing up is that there's now a ramp meter as you enter sb i-25 from harmony, though i've never seen it active.

mulberry has less lights on it, but they are badly timed imho, and has a really bad light just east of the interstate that controls mulberry, a frontage road, and a side street all at once.

prospect i think is getting 4-laned out to past the interstate soon.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on November 24, 2021, 10:16:11 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 09:05:38 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 24, 2021, 08:59:08 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 08:44:45 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:23:16 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 24, 2021, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

It didn't happen with Evansville, IN.
Only because people moved even further. -20% population over 60 years.

Fort Collins, Colorado.

Fort Collins is different though because it's a college town. Colorado State is not about to pack up its entire campus and move just because an interstate got built 4 miles from downtown.

Fine. Go south then.  Loveland, Colorado.

all the towns on the northern front range are like that.. built along 287 with a leg or two out to the interstate, then development happened at the junctions.
loveland has the big outlet mall. longmont has the truck stops, tho johnson's corner is better :) i think there's even stuff at the erie and mead exits now.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 24, 2021, 10:16:51 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 09:27:21 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 08:44:45 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:23:16 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 24, 2021, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

It didn't happen with Evansville, IN.
Only because people moved even further. -20% population over 60 years.

Fort Collins, Colorado.
And the point is?
How long did it take to walk across either Fort Collins or Loveland when the highway was built?

Not sure exactly what you're looking for with your question here.  You asked for a city that was bypassed by the interstate that didn't have the city then grow dramatically towards the interstate when the city grew.  Yeah, it was smaller, but since it's grown 120K people since 1960, you think it would be MORE likely that it would have grown dramatically towards the highway, which it didn't.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 24, 2021, 10:17:31 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 24, 2021, 10:16:11 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 09:05:38 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 24, 2021, 08:59:08 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 08:44:45 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:23:16 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 24, 2021, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

It didn't happen with Evansville, IN.
Only because people moved even further. -20% population over 60 years.

Fort Collins, Colorado.

Fort Collins is different though because it's a college town. Colorado State is not about to pack up its entire campus and move just because an interstate got built 4 miles from downtown.

Fine. Go south then.  Loveland, Colorado.

all the towns on the northern front range are like that.. built along 287 with a leg or two out to the interstate, then development happened at the junctions.
loveland has the big outlet mall. longmont has the truck stops, tho johnson's corner is better :) i think there's even stuff at the erie and mead exits now.

Sure, there's stuff at the exits, but driving from I-25 west into Loveland or Fort Collins, you certainly don't feel "in the city" for at least a couple of miles.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: US20IL64 on November 24, 2021, 10:20:51 AM
Even if no Interstate shielded routes, certain US highways were widened, like 66, and others would have went with demand.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 10:27:06 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 10:16:51 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 09:27:21 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 08:44:45 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:23:16 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 24, 2021, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

It didn't happen with Evansville, IN.
Only because people moved even further. -20% population over 60 years.

Fort Collins, Colorado.
And the point is?
How long did it take to walk across either Fort Collins or Loveland when the highway was built?

Not sure exactly what you're looking for with your question here.  You asked for a city that was bypassed by the interstate that didn't have the city then grow dramatically towards the interstate when the city grew.  Yeah, it was smaller, but since it's grown 120K people since 1960, you think it would be MORE likely that it would have grown dramatically towards the highway, which it didn't.
It's hard to say without knowing things first hand, but looks like  @zachary_amaryllis addresses it above. looking at the map, I tend to consider an area, Greeley - Windsor - Ft.Collins - Loveland, rather than individual cities. Area is dissected by I-25 and US-34. Growth happens along the highways.

Would be fun to find Ft Collins pre-I-25 map though...
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 10:29:34 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 10:17:31 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on November 24, 2021, 10:16:11 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 09:05:38 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 24, 2021, 08:59:08 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 08:44:45 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:23:16 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 24, 2021, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

It didn't happen with Evansville, IN.
Only because people moved even further. -20% population over 60 years.

Fort Collins, Colorado.

Fort Collins is different though because it's a college town. Colorado State is not about to pack up its entire campus and move just because an interstate got built 4 miles from downtown.

Fine. Go south then.  Loveland, Colorado.

all the towns on the northern front range are like that.. built along 287 with a leg or two out to the interstate, then development happened at the junctions.
loveland has the big outlet mall. longmont has the truck stops, tho johnson's corner is better :) i think there's even stuff at the erie and mead exits now.

Sure, there's stuff at the exits, but driving from I-25 west into Loveland or Fort Collins, you certainly don't feel "in the city" for at least a couple of miles.
Given that there are, like, 6 miles between I-25 and mountains to the west in the area, "couple of miles" sounds a bit of exhagerration.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 24, 2021, 10:36:34 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 10:29:34 AM
Given that there are, like, 6 miles between I-25 and mountains to the west in the area, "couple of miles" sounds a bit of exhagerration.

I normally take CO14 into town, and yes, a couple of miles.  If you just look a bit at Google Maps, you'll see there aren't even a whole lot of roads near the highway.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8zFtFWGt/FoCo.png)
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: jlam on November 24, 2021, 10:38:11 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 10:27:06 AM
Would be fun to find Ft Collins pre-I-25 map though...
I found your map, from the 1960s, as I-25 was being constructed.
https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/overlay/CO/CO_Fort%20Collins_450329_1960_24000_geo.jpg (https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/overlay/CO/CO_Fort%20Collins_450329_1960_24000_geo.jpg)
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 10:42:53 AM
Quote from: jlam on November 24, 2021, 10:38:11 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 10:27:06 AM
Would be fun to find Ft Collins pre-I-25 map though...
I found your map, from the 1960s, as I-25 was being constructed.
https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/overlay/CO/CO_Fort%20Collins_450329_1960_24000_geo.jpg (https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/overlay/CO/CO_Fort%20Collins_450329_1960_24000_geo.jpg)
Thank you!
Compare Williams lake position with respect to the city back then and today.  There is definitely growth towards highway.
Given that 14 goes through wet area (probably protected wetlands), it is not surprising that there is little built along that stretch.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: SkyPesos on November 24, 2021, 10:43:59 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 10:36:34 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 10:29:34 AM
Given that there are, like, 6 miles between I-25 and mountains to the west in the area, "couple of miles" sounds a bit of exhagerration.

I normally take CO14 into town, and yes, a couple of miles.  If you just look a bit at Google Maps, you'll see there aren't even a whole lot of roads near the highway.

[img snipped]
Interesting that I-25 is still 4 lanes between Longmont and Ft Collins... I thought it would've been 6 lane'd all the way north to Ft Collins a long time ago from the line of cities.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 24, 2021, 10:48:27 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 10:42:53 AM
Quote from: jlam on November 24, 2021, 10:38:11 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 10:27:06 AM
Would be fun to find Ft Collins pre-I-25 map though...
I found your map, from the 1960s, as I-25 was being constructed.
https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/overlay/CO/CO_Fort%20Collins_450329_1960_24000_geo.jpg (https://ngmdb.usgs.gov/img4/ht_icons/overlay/CO/CO_Fort%20Collins_450329_1960_24000_geo.jpg)
Thank you!
Compare Williams lake position with respect to the city back then and today.  There is definitely growth towards highway.
Given that 14 goes through wet area (probably protected wetlands), it is not surprising that there is little built along that stretch.

I didn't say there was NO growth towards the highway.  Fort Collins grew in every direction from looking at that map (except west, because, you know, mountains), and I'd argue far more going south (along US287) than east (towards I-25).
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: JayhawkCO on November 24, 2021, 10:50:27 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on November 24, 2021, 10:43:59 AM
Quote from: jayhawkco on November 24, 2021, 10:36:34 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 10:29:34 AM
Given that there are, like, 6 miles between I-25 and mountains to the west in the area, "couple of miles" sounds a bit of exhagerration.

I normally take CO14 into town, and yes, a couple of miles.  If you just look a bit at Google Maps, you'll see there aren't even a whole lot of roads near the highway.

[img snipped]
Interesting that I-25 is still 4 lanes between Longmont and Ft Collins... I thought it would've been 6 lane'd all the way north to Ft Collins a long time ago from the line of cities.

They're working on it.  It's miserable.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: Dirt Roads on November 24, 2021, 11:23:52 AM
For many years, there has been a comparison between Charleston and Huntington, West Virginia with respect to how the routing of the Interstate system helped the former and hurt the latter.  In Charleston, the junction of [almost] all three Interstates (I-64, I-77 and almost I-79) just west of downtown resulted in a resurgence of the city in the late-1970s and early-1980s.  But in Huntington, I-64 was routed along the mountainside bypassing the west side of town and then veering southeast several miles from downtown.  Huntington suffered greatly during the same period.  There have been numerous articles in various newspapers discussing this topic over the years.

However...
The one important fact always missing was that I-64 was completed around Huntington in 1965, whereas I-64/I-77 were completed in 1975 (with the connection to the West Virginia Turnpike in 1976 and then I-79 connecting in 1979).  Another fact was that I-64 originally opened up Huntington traffic to the due west (Lexington/Louisville), whereas Charleston got inter-connected to Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Charlotte (and points south).  For all of the second half of the 20th Century, Huntington was the larger of the two cities (and also the larger metropolitan area).  But since it didn't develop into a major crossroads, it suffered earlier (along with the decline of its steel industry and other metals).  Charleston has also declined, along with its chemical industry. 
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: hbelkins on November 24, 2021, 11:30:42 AM
Seems to me that Huntington's growth has occurred in Barboursville.

There isn't a lot at the two exits that provide north-south access into the city, nor is there a lot built up along them. And I don't know that US 60 has changed appreciably over the years other than Walmart being built. But east of the exit, and then to and through Barboursville with the new WV 193 exit and the mall, there's been a lot of growth.

So I'd say that the interstate shifted trade patterns out of downtown.

As for Charleston, it's interesting that the major shopping area is well off the interstate (Corridor G) and the only major "highway business" hub (motels, restaurants) is at Cross Lanes. (Is Kanawha City still as much of a slum as it used to be?)
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: Rothman on November 24, 2021, 11:39:30 AM
From what I see from the Census figures, Huntington was larger from 1910 to 1950 and then again in 1970 (i.e., Charleston was bigger in 1960 and then 1980 to 2020).  MSA's probably a different story, but I-64 certainly stimulated development along the connecting corridor.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: ran4sh on November 24, 2021, 12:55:15 PM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

This is somewhat true in the Atlanta area. The "bypass", I-285, has effectively become a location that attracts development, especially in the Cumberland, Sandy Springs/Dunwoody, and airport areas.

A lot of people who live within I-285 and don't know any better, like to suggest things like congestion tolling to drive inside I-285, or even downgrading of Interstates within I-285 to arterials or city streets, but the people who know better, understand that such a thing would simply cause businesses to leave the area inside I-285 and establish locations along or just outside I-285 instead.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: Dirt Roads on November 25, 2021, 09:13:53 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 24, 2021, 11:30:42 AM
Seems to me that Huntington's growth has occurred in Barboursville.

There isn't a lot at the two exits that provide north-south access into the city, nor is there a lot built up along them. And I don't know that US 60 has changed appreciably over the years other than Walmart being built. But east of the exit, and then to and through Barboursville with the new WV 193 exit and the mall, there's been a lot of growth.

So I'd say that the interstate shifted trade patterns out of downtown.

Definitely trade patterns, but it is questionable whether Barboursville's population change was related to "growth" or annexation.  The public's perception of growth in Barboursville started when the Huntington Mall opened in 1981 at the Ona exit of I-64 (then Exit 20, now Exit 20B).  The exit is located about halfway between Barboursville and Ona (pronounced Oh-nuh).  At the time, both towns were dying (Ona was the location of a NASCAR dirt track and a campground famous for its hot-air balloons).  The Huntington Mall pulled much of the shopping businesses out of Huntington (uhh, Sears was never located downtown but rather along the railroad where 29th Street meets Fifth Avenue).  The new Merritts Creek exit for WV-193 (Exit 18) does create a connection into Barboursville proper.  Lots of commercial growth, pulling from Huntington, eastern Cabell, Putnam and perhaps even western Kanawha.

Before somebody jumps off the handle, back in the old days the Ona exit was indeed marked Barboursville for westbound traffic.

Quote from: hbelkins on November 24, 2021, 11:30:42 AM
As for Charleston, it's interesting that the major shopping area is well off the interstate (Corridor G) and the only major "highway business" hub (motels, restaurants) is at Cross Lanes. (Is Kanawha City still as much of a slum as it used to be?)

But the major shopping areas were downtown, West Side and over in Kanawha City before the Interstate busted through Charleston.  The Charleston Town Center opened up right across from I-64 at the edge of downtown in 1983.  It's downfall has been the public's interest in Big Box shopping, compared to hauling packages back-and-forth to the car (which wasn't very secure in the parking garages in downtown).  There was also a bunch of teenage crime at the Charleston Town Center.  But in its heyday, it was one of the best malls in the country.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: epzik8 on November 25, 2021, 09:35:14 AM
Montgomery, Atlanta, Greenville-Spartanburg, Charlotte, and the Triad and Triangle benefitted greatly from the construction of I-85. Charlotte in particular has grown rapidly in the years since, and has emerged as a business and technology hotbed.

Out west, such as in Salt Lake City and Denver, U.S. routes which were formerly through routes were displaced by I-70, I-15, I-25 et al. and many small towns away from the Interstate corridors lost business.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: oscar on November 25, 2021, 09:56:35 AM
A strong candidate for "helped the least" by the Interstate system (even if not affirmatively hurt by it) has to be Arizona. Slow to build its part of the system, and deeply allergic to adding new routes to the system, including extensive additions to the Phoenix freeway system deliberately done as non-Interstates.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: hbelkins on November 25, 2021, 08:24:51 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on November 25, 2021, 09:13:53 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 24, 2021, 11:30:42 AM
Seems to me that Huntington's growth has occurred in Barboursville.

There isn't a lot at the two exits that provide north-south access into the city, nor is there a lot built up along them. And I don't know that US 60 has changed appreciably over the years other than Walmart being built. But east of the exit, and then to and through Barboursville with the new WV 193 exit and the mall, there's been a lot of growth.

So I'd say that the interstate shifted trade patterns out of downtown.

Definitely trade patterns, but it is questionable whether Barboursville's population change was related to "growth" or annexation.  The public's perception of growth in Barboursville started when the Huntington Mall opened in 1981 at the Ona exit of I-64 (then Exit 20, now Exit 20B).  The exit is located about halfway between Barboursville and Ona (pronounced Oh-nuh).  At the time, both towns were dying (Ona was the location of a NASCAR dirt track and a campground famous for its hot-air balloons).  The Huntington Mall pulled much of the shopping businesses out of Huntington (uhh, Sears was never located downtown but rather along the railroad where 29th Street meets Fifth Avenue).  The new Merritts Creek exit for WV-193 (Exit 18) does create a connection into Barboursville proper.  Lots of commercial growth, pulling from Huntington, eastern Cabell, Putnam and perhaps even western Kanawha.

Before somebody jumps off the handle, back in the old days the Ona exit was indeed marked Barboursville for westbound traffic.

I don't ever remember an exit for Ona on I-64. Milton, yes, but not Ona. If I'm not mistaken, the signage at the end of the county route that leads from the Milton exit to US 60 points to Milton and Culloden. (Cull-OH-dun).

My great-aunt worked at a Sears out on US 60 that may have been within the city limits of Barboursville instead of Huntington. I remember us dropping in to visit her there on a trip to see relatives in my youth.

Quote from: hbelkins on November 24, 2021, 11:30:42 AM
As for Charleston, it's interesting that the major shopping area is well off the interstate (Corridor G) and the only major "highway business" hub (motels, restaurants) is at Cross Lanes. (Is Kanawha City still as much of a slum as it used to be?)

But the major shopping areas were downtown, West Side and over in Kanawha City before the Interstate busted through Charleston.  The Charleston Town Center opened up right across from I-64 at the edge of downtown in 1983.  It's downfall has been the public's interest in Big Box shopping, compared to hauling packages back-and-forth to the car (which wasn't very secure in the parking garages in downtown).  There was also a bunch of teenage crime at the Charleston Town Center.  But in its heyday, it was one of the best malls in the country.
[/quote]

SP Cook has spoken often of the downfall of Town Center. I attended the AASHTO Subcommittee on Transportation Communications (Transcomm) conference five years ago in the Marriott across the street. We all arrived on Sunday afternoon and after the opening meet-and-greet, I walked across to the mall to eat at Five Guys, and was frustrated to find that it, along with most of the other restaurants in the mall, closed at 6 p.m. Had to settle for Chili's, which was still open.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: GCrites on November 25, 2021, 09:22:11 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on November 25, 2021, 09:13:53 AM


The Huntington Mall pulled much of the shopping businesses out of Huntington (uhh, Sears was never located downtown but rather along the railroad where 29th Street meets Fifth Avenue). 

Did that become the East Side Big Bear afterward (later Big Bear Plus)? I always thought that Big Bear had a lot more entrances than a regular Big Bear but it may have also had a Hart's before Hart's got wrapped into Big Bear Plus.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: GCrites on November 25, 2021, 09:26:28 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on November 25, 2021, 08:24:51 PM


My great-aunt worked at a Sears out on US 60 that may have been within the city limits of Barboursville instead of Huntington. I remember us dropping in to visit her there on a trip to see relatives in my youth.




There was also East Hills Mall on Rt. 60 which operated with some indoor mallway into the mid-2000s. It never had a Sears though.
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: Life in Paradise on November 26, 2021, 10:50:49 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:23:16 AM
Quote from: 1 on November 24, 2021, 07:18:33 AM
Quote from: kalvado on November 24, 2021, 07:16:00 AM
I suspect that if highway bypassed the city, city itself would effectively move to the highway.

It didn't happen with Evansville, IN.
Only because people moved even further. -20% population over 60 years.
Actually, the county that Evansville is in has been slowly growing, and most of the growth (due to land topography, etc) is to the north towards I-64, and somewhat towards what is now I-69.  It's happening, but us SW IN Hoosiers are rather slow in our movement. 
Title: Re: What regions have been helped/hurt the most by the Interstate system?
Post by: Dirt Roads on November 26, 2021, 03:25:36 PM
Quote from: Dirt Roads on November 25, 2021, 09:13:53 AM
The Huntington Mall pulled much of the shopping businesses out of Huntington (uhh, Sears was never located downtown but rather along the railroad where 29th Street meets Fifth Avenue). 

Quote from: GCrites80s on November 25, 2021, 09:22:11 PM
Did that become the East Side Big Bear afterward (later Big Bear Plus)? I always thought that Big Bear had a lot more entrances than a regular Big Bear but it may have also had a Hart's before Hart's got wrapped into Big Bear Plus.

Indeed.  The old Sears location was home to Big Bear when that grocery chain started trying to compete with Kroger in metro West Virginia.  I also recall Harts, but I can't quite remember whether it was in that same location.  This is now home to Marshall University's School of Physical Therapy, probably with some other businesses in the same building.

Quote from: hbelkins on November 25, 2021, 08:24:51 PM
My great-aunt worked at a Sears out on US 60 that may have been within the city limits of Barboursville instead of Huntington. I remember us dropping in to visit her there on a trip to see relatives in my youth.

We always called that the Barboursville Mall (not the correct name), but I'm not sure what the anchor store was.  The shopping center is still there, located on US-60 just west of Davis Creek Road (now Alt WV-10, but was the endpoint for WV-10 back in those days). 

Quote from: GCrites80s on November 25, 2021, 09:26:28 PM
There was also East Hills Mall on Rt. 60 which operated with some indoor mallway into the mid-2000s. It never had a Sears though.

Going way, way back.  The department store in East Hills Mall was originally an Aldens (the other one in West Virginia was at the south end of the Patrick Street Bridge in Charleston).  Hills ended up in East Hills Mall, which I thought was ironic.  Charleston's own Sports Mart moved to the Alden's building on the South Side and was there many years.