From Ars Technica:
Toyota owners have to pay $8/mo to keep using their key fob for remote start
Feature requires subscription even though it doesn't use connected services.QuoteAutomakers keep trying to get a piece of that sweet, sweet subscription income. Now, it's Toyota's turn.
Nearly every car company offers some sort of subscription package, and Toyota has one called Remote Connect. The service offers the usual fare, letting owners use an app to remotely lock their doors, for example, or if they own a plug-in vehicle, to precondition the interior. But as some complimentary subscriptions for Remote Connect come to an end, Toyota owners are getting an unexpected surprise–they can no longer use their key fob to remote-start their vehicles.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2hf)
Why am I getting an "Oh, what a fleecing" vibe from this? This is the same company that, for several years, refused to introduce Carplay and Android Auto integration into their autos, thus putting them several years behind Korean carmakers Kia and Hyundai. Should I purchase a new car (which probably won't occur for another eight years), Android Auto is an absolute requirement.
Yeah, that's some bullshit. It's one thing if you think you're subscribing to the special app. If you've never opened the app and have been using your fob and now it's disabled? I'd raise hell.
Honestly speaking, I cannot imagine a reason to get Toyota after throttle control fiasco and basically refusal to really deal with the issue.
but to each their own.
And reading into this... I suspect this is a pretty good sign that nothing really changed at Toyota.
Most likely, they just routed engine start through the connection module; engineers doing that didn't give a second thought to paid model. They implemented a remote start module and allowed it to fire up via fob, online access module, and possibly in some other way.
Then marketing people started to partition services, and it turned out remote start was too closely bundled with what became a premium feature.
Pretty much exact same problem - a free feature implemented so that is got behind a paywall - was a contributing factor in Boeing 737MAX fiasco.
Moral of the story: project management, especially software part of it, didn't improve much since unintended acceleration issue; software review still non-existent.
I hate this shit where you "buy" something but don't actually own it. The future wasn't supposed to suck.
Quote from: ZLoth on December 13, 2021, 02:22:26 PM
From Ars Technica:
Toyota owners have to pay $8/mo to keep using their key fob for remote start
Feature requires subscription even though it doesn't use connected services.QuoteAutomakers keep trying to get a piece of that sweet, sweet subscription income. Now, it's Toyota's turn.
Nearly every car company offers some sort of subscription package, and Toyota has one called Remote Connect. The service offers the usual fare, letting owners use an app to remotely lock their doors, for example, or if they own a plug-in vehicle, to precondition the interior. But as some complimentary subscriptions for Remote Connect come to an end, Toyota owners are getting an unexpected surprise–they can no longer use their key fob to remote-start their vehicles.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2hf)
Why am I getting an "Oh, what a fleecing" vibe from this? This is the same company that, for several years, refused to introduce Carplay and Android Auto integration into their autos, thus putting them several years behind Korean carmakers Kia and Hyundai. Should I purchase a new car (which probably won't occur for another eight years), Android Auto is an absolute requirement.
I'm not sure why the Android Auto issue is related to this, but it is/was because Toyota was (rightfully imo) concerned with the privacy of the data and with how Google would use it.
I'm sure Aftermarket Remote Start kits would quickly pay for themselves, if Toyota charges $8/month to use a feature already built into the car, depending on how long a Toyota driver intends to keep said vehicle
I'd also like to see things like this made illegal - one should own what they purchase, and free to use its features and do repairs, etc (looking at you, John Deere)
Quote from: kalvado on December 13, 2021, 05:31:15 PM
And reading into this... I suspect this is a pretty good sign that nothing really changed at Toyota.
Most likely, they just routed engine start through the connection module; engineers doing that didn't give a second thought to paid model. They implemented a remote start module and allowed it to fire up via fob, online access module, and possibly in some other way.
Then marketing people started to partition services, and it turned out remote start was too closely bundled with what became a premium feature.
Pretty much exact same problem - a free feature implemented so that is got behind a paywall - was a contributing factor in Boeing 737MAX fiasco.
Moral of the story: project management, especially software part of it, didn't improve much since unintended acceleration issue; software review still non-existent.
You're comparing the convenience of automatically starting your car from a distance to the avionics of passenger aircraft. Those are two complaints on opposite ends of the First World Problem spectrum. The drive-by-wire design has nothing to do with a microtransaction service. Wait until you find out that other manufacturers do it, along with software vendors, video games...
Read your fine print next time.
Can't wait until someone finds the hack to make this work for free.
Then predictably Toyota will sue because now people can use something they paid for.
Quote from: formulanone on December 13, 2021, 06:18:53 PM
Quote from: kalvado on December 13, 2021, 05:31:15 PM
And reading into this... I suspect this is a pretty good sign that nothing really changed at Toyota.
Most likely, they just routed engine start through the connection module; engineers doing that didn't give a second thought to paid model. They implemented a remote start module and allowed it to fire up via fob, online access module, and possibly in some other way.
Then marketing people started to partition services, and it turned out remote start was too closely bundled with what became a premium feature.
Pretty much exact same problem - a free feature implemented so that is got behind a paywall - was a contributing factor in Boeing 737MAX fiasco.
Moral of the story: project management, especially software part of it, didn't improve much since unintended acceleration issue; software review still non-existent.
You're comparing the convenience of automatically starting your car from a distance to the avionics of passenger aircraft. Those are two complaints on opposite ends of the First World Problem spectrum. The drive-by-wire design has nothing to do with a microtransaction service. Wait until you find out that other manufacturers do it, along with software vendors, video games...
Read your fine print next time.
I am talking about software controlling a primary system of a car. As such, I expect it to be compliant with the standard.
And avionics standards and car software standards are not out of tune since the fundamental science of building reliable software is the same.
Oh, and we're talking about a company which is known to declare standard adherence, while creating untestable and unmaintainable (those are technical definitions, not just words) code which violated standards and caused loss of lives. So color me unsurprized if Toyota, similar to Boeing, lost control over their
design.
It's not really hard to start a car with a key. Remote start always seemed like a gimmick that wasn't worth an extra cost.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2021, 07:42:33 PM
It's not really hard to start a car with a key. Remote start always seemed like a gimmick that wasn't worth an extra cost.
Depends on where and when. If it's really cold outside - say below 0F - some warmup comes real handy
Quote from: kalvado on December 13, 2021, 07:16:16 PM
Quote from: formulanone on December 13, 2021, 06:18:53 PM
Quote from: kalvado on December 13, 2021, 05:31:15 PM
And reading into this... I suspect this is a pretty good sign that nothing really changed at Toyota.
Most likely, they just routed engine start through the connection module; engineers doing that didn't give a second thought to paid model. They implemented a remote start module and allowed it to fire up via fob, online access module, and possibly in some other way.
Then marketing people started to partition services, and it turned out remote start was too closely bundled with what became a premium feature.
Pretty much exact same problem - a free feature implemented so that is got behind a paywall - was a contributing factor in Boeing 737MAX fiasco.
Moral of the story: project management, especially software part of it, didn't improve much since unintended acceleration issue; software review still non-existent.
You're comparing the convenience of automatically starting your car from a distance to the avionics of passenger aircraft. Those are two complaints on opposite ends of the First World Problem spectrum. The drive-by-wire design has nothing to do with a microtransaction service. Wait until you find out that other manufacturers do it, along with software vendors, video games...
Read your fine print next time.
I am talking about software controlling a primary system of a car. As such, I expect it to be compliant with the standard.
And avionics standards and car software standards are not out of tune since the fundamental science of building reliable software is the same.
Oh, and we're talking about a company which is known to declare standard adherence, while creating untestable and unmaintainable (those are technical definitions, not just words) code which violated standards and caused loss of lives. So color me unsurprized if Toyota, similar to Boeing, lost control over their
design.
Again, it's a microtransaction (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=microtransaction). Or if you will, a subscription service...like an entertainment feed or some other content that's delivered to you (either electronically or by mail). If I cancel or fail to pay my Netflix subscription, the button on my TV's remote control fails to let me view Netflix content no matter how many times I push the Netflix button. The satellite radio button stopped working on my cars after 3 months of usage (my wife got a year), and I didn't really want to buy the XM subscription service.
Putting the ability to warm-up an engine (and perhaps by extension, change the temperature of a passenger cabin) on par with the engine throttle input or an aircraft's aerodynamic function is a sharp tack to a different argument. I've worked in or around automotive service departments for over 20 years now; people constantly fail to read the manual on what is usually their second-largest expense.
Quote from: kalvado on December 13, 2021, 07:45:21 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2021, 07:42:33 PM
It's not really hard to start a car with a key. Remote start always seemed like a gimmick that wasn't worth an extra cost.
Depends on where and when. If it's really cold outside - say below 0F - some warmup comes real handy
Perhaps so, I guess that I couldn't justify the price hike for myself. Usually I have scrap ice on my own car 40-50 morning a year even here in Central California. I guess it doesn't feel like worth moving up the options list on a new car to get giving I grew up having to start my cars manually in cold weather climates.
Quote from: formulanone on December 13, 2021, 08:16:21 PM
Quote from: kalvado on December 13, 2021, 07:16:16 PM
Quote from: formulanone on December 13, 2021, 06:18:53 PM
Quote from: kalvado on December 13, 2021, 05:31:15 PM
And reading into this... I suspect this is a pretty good sign that nothing really changed at Toyota.
Most likely, they just routed engine start through the connection module; engineers doing that didn't give a second thought to paid model. They implemented a remote start module and allowed it to fire up via fob, online access module, and possibly in some other way.
Then marketing people started to partition services, and it turned out remote start was too closely bundled with what became a premium feature.
Pretty much exact same problem - a free feature implemented so that is got behind a paywall - was a contributing factor in Boeing 737MAX fiasco.
Moral of the story: project management, especially software part of it, didn't improve much since unintended acceleration issue; software review still non-existent.
You're comparing the convenience of automatically starting your car from a distance to the avionics of passenger aircraft. Those are two complaints on opposite ends of the First World Problem spectrum. The drive-by-wire design has nothing to do with a microtransaction service. Wait until you find out that other manufacturers do it, along with software vendors, video games...
Read your fine print next time.
I am talking about software controlling a primary system of a car. As such, I expect it to be compliant with the standard.
And avionics standards and car software standards are not out of tune since the fundamental science of building reliable software is the same.
Oh, and we're talking about a company which is known to declare standard adherence, while creating untestable and unmaintainable (those are technical definitions, not just words) code which violated standards and caused loss of lives. So color me unsurprized if Toyota, similar to Boeing, lost control over their
design.
Again, it's a microtransaction (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=microtransaction). Or if you will, a subscription service...like an entertainment feed or some other content that's delivered to you (either electronically or by mail). If I cancel or fail to pay my the Netflix subscription, the button on my TV's remote control fails to let me Netflix no matter how many times I push the Netflix button. (Stupid Samsung TV, that's another matter.)
Putting the ability to warm-up an engine (and perhaps by extension, change the temperature of a passenger cabin) on par with the engine throttle input or an aircraft's aerodynamic function is a sharp tack to a different argument.
We are talking slightly different things. Looks like fob remote start linked to subscription wasn't a design feature. It is not clearly described in sales documents, and didn't come to light until not too long ago.
My impression is that it's a bug, promoted to a feature by later iteration of marketing effort.
And as such, it implies poorly designed system - which Toyota did before and could mostly get away with. I could care less about remote start; but this is a sign of significant lingering problems with engineering within the company.
Fuck, I'll go harder and say that any vehicle licensed for use on public roads should be compelled to make all of the specs to its computer-machinery interfaces public, and any and all code its computer runs open source. It's straight-up a safety hazard to not know what the code in the computers is actually doing, and just take it on the manufacturer's word that it's not going to suddenly bug out and send the car careening into the car next to it. That code should be open so that third parties (not just NHTSA, but the automotive press, computer security experts, etc) can read through it and identify any potential safety risks and offer patches to be installed.
Also, when someone drops $20,000 on a machine they should be able to do anything they want with it, including formatting the hard drive and installing their own software, and having open source software would facilitate that.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2021, 08:27:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on December 13, 2021, 07:45:21 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2021, 07:42:33 PM
It's not really hard to start a car with a key. Remote start always seemed like a gimmick that wasn't worth an extra cost.
Depends on where and when. If it's really cold outside - say below 0F - some warmup comes real handy
Perhaps so, I guess that I couldn't justify the price hike for myself. Usually I have scrap ice on my own car 40-50 morning a year even here in Central California. I guess it doesn't feel like worth moving up the options list on a new car to get giving I grew up having to start my cars manually in cold weather climates.
Look at it from the other perspective. Once you have pushbutton engine start and no manual keys, remote start and local start become fairly similar. Once you have a medium range secure control channel - remote lock-unlock, there is really no reason not to add some features like window or engine control.
I can understand phone control being a premium since cell service and cloud servers have ongoing costs; but medium range control is just there.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2021, 08:27:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on December 13, 2021, 07:45:21 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2021, 07:42:33 PM
It's not really hard to start a car with a key. Remote start always seemed like a gimmick that wasn't worth an extra cost.
Depends on where and when. If it's really cold outside - say below 0F - some warmup comes real handy
Perhaps so, I guess that I couldn't justify the price hike for myself. Usually I have scrap ice on my own car 40-50 morning a year even here in Central California. I guess it doesn't feel like worth moving up the options list on a new car to get giving I grew up having to start my cars manually in cold weather climates.
In my opinion, here in (southern) Maine, remote start comes in handy in the winter to get the car warmed up, get the heat running the cabin and get the defroster running on the windows. In the summer, it's mostly to get a head start in cooling the car down in the cabin to a comfortable temperature, usually around 22ºC (72ºF).
Quote from: kalvado on December 13, 2021, 08:44:11 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2021, 08:27:57 PM
Quote from: kalvado on December 13, 2021, 07:45:21 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2021, 07:42:33 PM
It's not really hard to start a car with a key. Remote start always seemed like a gimmick that wasn't worth an extra cost.
Depends on where and when. If it's really cold outside - say below 0F - some warmup comes real handy
Perhaps so, I guess that I couldn't justify the price hike for myself. Usually I have scrap ice on my own car 40-50 morning a year even here in Central California. I guess it doesn't feel like worth moving up the options list on a new car to get giving I grew up having to start my cars manually in cold weather climates.
Look at it from the other perspective. Once you have pushbutton engine start and no manual keys, remote start and local start become fairly similar. Once you have a medium range secure control channel - remote lock-unlock, there is really no reason not to add some features like window or engine control.
I can understand phone control being a premium since cell service and cloud servers have ongoing costs; but medium range control is just there.
I want to say with my Impreza that basically all that stuff was included in the next option group up and couldn't be individually optioned. I wonder how much of that is the case with the Toyota line these days? I would imagine it would be equally difficult to get stand alone opinions on specific trims. It seems like things like remote start tend to come at the mid-level to upper tier option groups on most volume cars these days.
I'm gonna say it once and never again: subscription services for things like that is bullshit.
Quote from: ran4sh on December 13, 2021, 06:00:14 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on December 13, 2021, 02:22:26 PM
Why am I getting an "Oh, what a fleecing" vibe from this? This is the same company that, for several years, refused to introduce Carplay and Android Auto integration into their autos, thus putting them several years behind Korean carmakers Kia and Hyundai. Should I purchase a new car (which probably won't occur for another eight years), Android Auto is an absolute requirement.
I'm not sure why the Android Auto issue is related to this, but it is/was because Toyota was (rightfully imo) concerned with the privacy of the data and with how Google would use it.
It all comes down to money. While I realize that cars are partially rolling computers nowadays, it's depends on where the controllers are being used. When it comes to the actual car hardware (emissions control, engine efficiency), the carmakers have this down pat. It's a different story when it comes to the interior systems.
We're come quite a ways from when it was "good enough" to have a car radio in the car, with maybe a tape deck or a CD player. Nowadays, the vehicles have a "car infotainment system". Between 2006 and 2014 (the two years that I purchased a car), Bluetooth went from a rarely found feature to a requirement for me to purchase the vehicle. This is because smartphones took off in the late 2000s and were more than just phones, they were also audio players as well. Why listen to terrestrial radio or subscribe to SiriusXM when you can listen to the playlist on your phone?
You know what else a phone is good at? Vehicle navigation. Why should I pay for expensive "vehicle navigation" option and $300 updates when I can free GPS navigation from my smartphone that is continuously updated? To the car maker, that's an revenue stream that is suddenly cut off. And, that's just one example. Go ahead and knock Google and Apple for the privacy issues, but you have to agree, they got the whole user experience down pat. The Android OS make up 73% of the mobile market share, while Apple iOS makes up the other 27%. When it comes down to Android Auto/Car Play, there are extremely tight rules surrounding what you can and cannot do, including the fact that you cannot play video, the buttons have to be "jumbo-sized", and so on. Both Google's and Apple's application ecosystems are extremely strong with both the number of applications and how frequently they are updated.
For the car makers, however, Android Auto and Carplay hurts their revenue stream. If you want to integrate Carplay/Android Auto, you have to pay a hefty licensing fee. So much for having Pandora pay you a fee to include their service into your own proprietary car OS. And, so much for having a system that is "unique" to your brand. As a consumer, I don't mind paying the "one-time" fee as part of the purchase price.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2021, 07:42:33 PMIt's not really hard to start a car with a key. Remote start always seemed like a gimmick that wasn't worth an extra cost.
It comes in very handy on extremely cold mornings when you want to warm up your car and defrost those windows. Not to mention the hot summers when your car is under the hot sun and you want to get it partially cooled off. Of course, I garage my vehicles, so I don't have to worry about scraping the windshield as much. The procedure for remote starting my car requires that you first hit the "lock" button on the remote, followed by the "remote start".
What's going to be really stupid is when you have these 2022 cars still on the road in 2042. Does anybody really think the current version of the Android API is still going to be supported by then? Or that Apple/Android are still going to be the dominant mobile OSes by then? (If you're tempted to say "yes", think about what computers were like in 2002 and then try again. Do you have anything in your house that's compatible with Windows XP?)
Hell, what do you do if the car manufacturer or marque goes belly-up? You just have features on your car that are perfectly mechanically sound that you can never access again because the subscription servers are shut down?
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 14, 2021, 12:25:35 AMWhat's going to be really stupid is when you have these 2022 cars still on the road in 2042. Does anybody really think the current version of the Android API is still going to be supported by then? Or that Apple/Android are still going to be the dominant mobile OSes by then? (If you're tempted to say "yes", think about what computers were like in 2002 and then try again. Do you have anything in your house that's compatible with Windows XP?)
Are we talking software level or hardware level? Windows XP was introduced in 2001, and went end-of-life in April, 2014, thus the backwards compatibility for Windows XP isn't there anymore. XP was also a 32-bit operating system, while we now use 64-bit operating systems.
Hardware level? Different story. Does the processor support 64-bit? If so, I can probably repurpose an old Windows XP computer into a Linux server or possibly a Linux workstation. On the other hand, try repurposing an Apple computer with their intentional obsolescence.
Lets look at another technology. DVD was technology that was introduced in 1997, and was a huge improvement over VHS in terms of video quality, feature set, and reduced cost of manufacturing the discs. Although it has been replaced by both BluRay and Streaming services, you can still purchase DVDs in at Walmart, and the BluRay/4K players still play DVDs and CDs. And CDs are a 40 year old technology, although support for physical media is being eliminated in cars in favor of Bluetooth.
Having said that, I put more confidence in Apple/Google updating their platform than the automakers updating their proprietary platform. Most of the work of Android Auto/Carplay is still at your phone's level, with the integration allowing your phone to interface with the touch screen. Any obsolescence will more likely occur at the hardware level instead of the software level.
Software level. Unless you think that the car manufacturers are going to voluntarily put all the specs out for their proprietary computer hardware so that someone can put together a Linux distro that you can install over the existing operating system. Granted, someone's going to attempt that anyway, but I would feel a little leery driving in a car with aftermarket software unless I knew either the manufacturer released their specs or that the processor running the aftermarket software only controlled creature-comfort features like the radio and GPS. It's one thing working around the fits and starts of a reverse-engineered printer driver, it's quite another if your car's OS suddenly bugs out reading the camshaft position sensor.
I personally have zero confidence in Apple/Google maintaining compatibility. That's just not in the nature of commercial software companies. Eventually we will reach a point where Apple/Google estimates that too few cars of a certain model year are left on the road (or to be more accurate, there aren't enough cars of that model year still being driven by people who have the cash to shell out for a new phone every year) to make it economically feasible to keep porting that version of the car interface protocol forward to their new OS version. And so we will get the inevitable end-of-life announcement. You'll end up having to do something silly like keep an outdated phone in your car with your music on it if you can't afford to trade your car in as often as you trade your phone in.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 13, 2021, 05:51:46 PM
I hate this shit where you "buy" something but don't actually own it. The future wasn't supposed to suck.
This concept isn't new, but because of the increasing interconnectedness of modern life it has become much easier to accomplish when a company wants to say "you 'bought' it but we can take it away from you". When you bought a CD, you didn't "own" the music on it - the CD was essentially a license to use the contents privately for yourself with restrictions (however unenforceable they may have been) on non-personal usage. Of course, they can't "shut off" a CD sitting on your shelf, but I've heard stories that songs you buy digitally may magically disappear - even though you paid for it, you never "owned" it and they can do that for any reason no questions asked, and I've noticed some stuff in the deeper corners of my library I bought years ago no longer "exists".
And I agree it's a pain in the ass.
Quote from: ZLoth on December 13, 2021, 02:22:26 PM
From Ars Technica:
Toyota owners have to pay $8/mo to keep using their key fob for remote start
Feature requires subscription even though it doesn't use connected services.QuoteAutomakers keep trying to get a piece of that sweet, sweet subscription income. Now, it's Toyota's turn.
Nearly every car company offers some sort of subscription package, and Toyota has one called Remote Connect. The service offers the usual fare, letting owners use an app to remotely lock their doors, for example, or if they own a plug-in vehicle, to precondition the interior. But as some complimentary subscriptions for Remote Connect come to an end, Toyota owners are getting an unexpected surprise–they can no longer use their key fob to remote-start their vehicles.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2hf)
Why am I getting an "Oh, what a fleecing" vibe from this? This is the same company that, for several years, refused to introduce Carplay and Android Auto integration into their autos, thus putting them several years behind Korean carmakers Kia and Hyundai. Should I purchase a new car (which probably won't occur for another eight years), Android Auto is an absolute requirement.
I don't get the logic behind that. I bought my 2021 F-150 (before the chip shortage, of course) and I have FordPass and it's free for the lifetime of the vehicle. I use the app to check how much fuel there is left in the tank, to remote start it without having to move my keyfob, and even use it to get flat tire assistance when I can't change it (i.e. bad part of town, rain, etc.). The cost of the UConnect Access system kept me from signing off on buying a Ram because it was subscription-based when I asked the salesman about the UConnect Access. The FordPass mobility app was free, and Fords come with remote start from the factory depending on trim, options, etc., and you can use it from the time you take delivery without extra cost. I like the convenience of remote start, but adding a price tag to it doesn't seem right when you can use it on other vehicles the moment you take delivery.
Quote from: Chrysler375Freeway on December 14, 2021, 01:31:02 AM
Quote from: ZLoth on December 13, 2021, 02:22:26 PM
From Ars Technica:
Toyota owners have to pay $8/mo to keep using their key fob for remote start
Feature requires subscription even though it doesn't use connected services.QuoteAutomakers keep trying to get a piece of that sweet, sweet subscription income. Now, it's Toyota's turn.
Nearly every car company offers some sort of subscription package, and Toyota has one called Remote Connect. The service offers the usual fare, letting owners use an app to remotely lock their doors, for example, or if they own a plug-in vehicle, to precondition the interior. But as some complimentary subscriptions for Remote Connect come to an end, Toyota owners are getting an unexpected surprise–they can no longer use their key fob to remote-start their vehicles.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2hf)
Why am I getting an "Oh, what a fleecing" vibe from this? This is the same company that, for several years, refused to introduce Carplay and Android Auto integration into their autos, thus putting them several years behind Korean carmakers Kia and Hyundai. Should I purchase a new car (which probably won't occur for another eight years), Android Auto is an absolute requirement.
I don't get the logic behind that. I bought my 2021 F-150 (before the chip shortage, of course) and I have FordPass and it's free for the lifetime of the vehicle. I use the app to check how much fuel there is left in the tank, to remote start it without having to move my keyfob, and even use it to get flat tire assistance when I can't change it (i.e. bad part of town, rain, etc.). The cost of the UConnect Access system kept me from signing off on buying a Ram because it was subscription-based when I asked the salesman about the UConnect Access. The FordPass mobility app was free, and Fords come with remote start from the factory depending on trim, options, etc., and you can use it from the time you take delivery without extra cost. I like the convenience of remote start, but adding a price tag to it doesn't seem right when you can use it on other vehicles the moment you take delivery.
One of the issues here - and it is also a part of Toyota situation - is technology obsolescence. Cars can last way longer than cool IT, and with deep integration upgrade becomes more involved, if possible.
Toyota ends support - with no plans to update - to 3G equipped cars as networks plan to drop 3g support. Cars with 3g were made until 2018.
I wonder if Bluetooth or USB connection would be of any use on my car in 10 years. And car lifespan keeps growing.
So self-contained features, which do not require external support, have a different type of value from my perspective.
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 14, 2021, 01:29:52 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 13, 2021, 05:51:46 PM
I hate this shit where you "buy" something but don't actually own it. The future wasn't supposed to suck.
This concept isn't new, but because of the increasing interconnectedness of modern life it has become much easier to accomplish when a company wants to say "you 'bought' it but we can take it away from you". When you bought a CD, you didn't "own" the music on it - the CD was essentially a license to use the contents privately for yourself with restrictions (however unenforceable they may have been) on non-personal usage. Of course, they can't "shut off" a CD sitting on your shelf, but I've heard stories that songs you buy digitally may magically disappear - even though you paid for it, you never "owned" it and they can do that for any reason no questions asked, and I've noticed some stuff in the deeper corners of my library I bought years ago no longer "exists".
And I agree it's a pain in the ass.
From a quick Google search, you actually do own the music if you buy a CD, unlike digital downloads.
SMH...and yet Toyota finds a new way to alienate potential buyers once again. Before the chip shortage issues, Cadillac charged a subscription fee to use SuperCruise (which, TBH, was a dumb idea to begin with), and I'm sure the other GM brands did as well, but thankfully I don't have it on my Equinox, so I may have dodged two bullets here.
Quote from: 1 on December 14, 2021, 07:49:20 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 14, 2021, 01:29:52 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 13, 2021, 05:51:46 PM
I hate this shit where you "buy" something but don't actually own it. The future wasn't supposed to suck.
This concept isn't new, but because of the increasing interconnectedness of modern life it has become much easier to accomplish when a company wants to say "you 'bought' it but we can take it away from you". When you bought a CD, you didn't "own" the music on it - the CD was essentially a license to use the contents privately for yourself with restrictions (however unenforceable they may have been) on non-personal usage. Of course, they can't "shut off" a CD sitting on your shelf, but I've heard stories that songs you buy digitally may magically disappear - even though you paid for it, you never "owned" it and they can do that for any reason no questions asked, and I've noticed some stuff in the deeper corners of my library I bought years ago no longer "exists".
And I agree it's a pain in the ass.
From a quick Google search, you actually do own the music if you buy a CD, unlike digital downloads.
Of course, vinyl is an attractive alternative to digital downloads, which reverses the trend on CDs in which one made the other obsolete (although you can still buy blank CDs at a store near your home). Circle of life, friends.
The issue with connecting a phone to one's car is that such then downloads a bunch of data from the phone, which then lives on the car with no ability to wipe it, which can be a problem when one inevitably gets rid of the car. Car software has traditionally not been written with security/privacy in mind, so it's a nightmare for anyone conscious about those issues.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 14, 2021, 01:28:10 AM
I personally have zero confidence in Apple/Google maintaining compatibility. That's just not in the nature of commercial software companies. Eventually we will reach a point where Apple/Google estimates that too few cars of a certain model year are left on the road (or to be more accurate, there aren't enough cars of that model year still being driven by people who have the cash to shell out for a new phone every year) to make it economically feasible to keep porting that version of the car interface protocol forward to their new OS version. And so we will get the inevitable end-of-life announcement. You'll end up having to do something silly like keep an outdated phone in your car with your music on it if you can't afford to trade your car in as often as you trade your phone in.
Defiantly, especially since it's already happening to streaming services on smart TVs.
As I've said before, I have no desire to hook my phone into a vehicle's computer system. I've noticed that on some of the work fleet vehicles I've driven, if you plug a charging cable into a built-in USB port, the video screen takes over the phone (or maybe I should say the phone takes over the video screen). I also have no desire to use my phone as a vehicle audio system, as I have independent players with much larger storage for those purposes. An AUX cable suits my needs perfectly.
My current daily driver is a 1990 Scottsdale 1500 pickup. It's the one that had the radio head unit and the cassette player as two separate pieces in different areas of the dash. I used to use the cassette player with one of those adapters that plugs into the headphone or line out port of a player, but the cassette deck quit working. The FM radio is crap, so my current audio setup is an inexpensive Bluetooth/AUX standalone speaker with which I can use my little iPod Touch or the cheap Motorola Android phone I bought to use as a music device when my iPod Classic's battery went kaput.
Cell service around here is so spotty that paying for any kind of streaming service would be a waste of money. And I have such an extensive music collection that I dropped my XM subscription years ago and haven't missed it.
Whenever I buy a new release (which is very rare, because today's music is garbage compared to what was released 50, 40, 30, or even 20 years ago) I buy it on CD, and immediately rip it to MP3 and usually burn a duplicate audio copy.
For those who are concerned about losing copies of music they've purchased digitally, I recommend doing what I've done anytime I've downloaded something off iTunes or Amazon. I immediately burn an audio copy of the album, which means I can play it in a CD player. I also save several copies of the digital files in separate places (a data CD/DVD or an external hard drive) as backups. That way, I'll always have access to the music in case my main hard drive craps out (or if Big Tech reaches into your computer and deletes your files).
Quote from: 1 on December 14, 2021, 07:49:20 AM
Quote from: TheHighwayMan394 on December 14, 2021, 01:29:52 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 13, 2021, 05:51:46 PM
I hate this shit where you "buy" something but don't actually own it. The future wasn't supposed to suck.
This concept isn't new, but because of the increasing interconnectedness of modern life it has become much easier to accomplish when a company wants to say "you 'bought' it but we can take it away from you". When you bought a CD, you didn't "own" the music on it - the CD was essentially a license to use the contents privately for yourself with restrictions (however unenforceable they may have been) on non-personal usage. Of course, they can't "shut off" a CD sitting on your shelf, but I've heard stories that songs you buy digitally may magically disappear - even though you paid for it, you never "owned" it and they can do that for any reason no questions asked, and I've noticed some stuff in the deeper corners of my library I bought years ago no longer "exists".
And I agree it's a pain in the ass.
From a quick Google search, you actually do own the music if you buy a CD, unlike digital downloads.
But did you ask Lars Ulrich if you actually own the music? He might think differently.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 14, 2021, 01:28:10 AM
You'll end up having to do something silly like keep an outdated phone in your car with your music on it if you can't afford to trade your car in as often as you trade your phone in.
Or just listen to FM/AM radio or put your music on a USB drive
Quote from: ZLoth on December 14, 2021, 12:09:10 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 13, 2021, 07:42:33 PMIt's not really hard to start a car with a key. Remote start always seemed like a gimmick that wasn't worth an extra cost.
It comes in very handy on extremely cold mornings when you want to warm up your car and defrost those windows. Not to mention the hot summers when your car is under the hot sun and you want to get it partially cooled off. Of course, I garage my vehicles, so I don't have to worry about scraping the windshield as much. The procedure for remote starting my car requires that you first hit the "lock" button on the remote, followed by the "remote start".
I have a 2017 Highlander and remote start (which won't be disconnected under this plan). I never thought I'd use it until I got my dog. I can run into a store in the summer and leave the pup in the car without worrying about the sun overheating him (or some good samaritan busting my window) since he can chill in the air conditioning.
Quote from: ran4sh on December 17, 2021, 07:07:56 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 14, 2021, 01:28:10 AM
You'll end up having to do something silly like keep an outdated phone in your car with your music on it if you can't afford to trade your car in as often as you trade your phone in.
Or just listen to FM/AM radio or put your music on a USB drive
Assuming USB-A doesn't go obsolete by then too. Which isn't
too likely, as USB-A has been around for about 20 years at this point, but the shift in phone chargers from USB-A to USB-C gives me pause. (Of course, my first phone using USB-C for its charger arrived right
after I installed a bunch of USB-A wall outlets...)
As for radio...we rented a Ford Focus for a recent Thanksgiving trip, and it had the most garbage radio I think I've ever heard on a car. We couldn't pick up
anything. Even with a good receiver, though, radio is clearly on its way out as a medium, and I'm not sure the existence of FM radio stations worth listening to in 20 years is something that can be taken as a given (AM is already a total wasteland unless you bear a strong resemblance to the subject of a Grant Wood painting).
Yeah, the primary market for FM radio these days seems to be people listening while at work or stores playing something while people shop. As Millennials and Generation Z become increasingly dominant, those areas will likely shift away from radio, leaving those stations with... not much. Already finding stations worth listening to in some markets is fairly hard (I thought about trying to get the all-Christmas stations off my presets but aborted that once I realized that there was nothing I was interested in listening to around Syracuse that didn't switch to all-Christmas for two months of the year).
It's too bad. FM radio is far more local to wherever one is traveling than streaming music options or Sirius FM. This is true even for iHeart and Audacity stations.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2021, 08:37:49 PMAssuming USB-A doesn't go obsolete by then too. Which isn't too likely, as USB-A has been around for about 20 years at this point, but the shift in phone chargers from USB-A to USB-C gives me pause. (Of course, my first phone using USB-C for its charger arrived right after I installed a bunch of USB-A wall outlets...)
I haven't even bothered putting in USB outlets for charging. I'm not seeing the cost-benefit ratio.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 17, 2021, 08:37:49 PMEven with a good receiver, though, radio is clearly on its way out as a medium, and I'm not sure the existence of FM radio stations worth listening to in 20 years is something that can be taken as a given (AM is already a total wasteland unless you bear a strong resemblance to the subject of a Grant Wood painting).
Quote from: vdeane on December 17, 2021, 10:09:00 PMYeah, the primary market for FM radio these days seems to be people listening while at work or stores playing something while people shop. As Millennials and Generation Z become increasingly dominant, those areas will likely shift away from radio, leaving those stations with... not much.
I'm approaching three years living in the DFW area, and I can't name any radio stations beyond WRR 101.1 Classical (https://markholtz.info/wrr101). I know that I have the two EBS stations programmed in (WBAP, KSCS), but I had to look at a online radio listing to know that one is a news/talk station and the other a country music station. Now that I have "unlimited Internet" on my mobile device, I'm more likely to be listening to a station on a streaming application such as Radio Garden (https://markholtz.info/radiogarden) rather than actual terrestrial radio. I think that HD radio was introduced in 2003, but I'll be darned if I heard anyone say "I got to have it in my vehicle". This is from someone who remembers when vehicles came standard with AM radio, and FM radio was an option that the parents didn't want to splurge for.
Since we are going through that rabbit hole, cassette desks are essentially dead, with the automakers removing them as an option from 2005-2010. The same with CD players in the past decade, and quite frankly, I'm not surprised. It's five pounds of mechanical parts that can easily be used elsewhere. I don't think I even used the CD player for more than an hour in the current vehicle that I've owned since April, 2014.
Even if Carplay/Android Auto is made obsolete (a plausible scenario), there is still the fallback to Bluetooth audio. That technology became extremely commonplace around the 2008 model year thanks partially due to the hands-free laws. As for FM modulators (essentially mini low-power FM retransmitters), those I had extremely mixed luck with. I remember listening to a radio station on a previous vehicle when a car pulled up to me, and wham, my radio locked on to that vehicle's FM modulator, and I was listening to the voice mail that was playing back. (uhhhh, privacy????) I had to get one hard-wired into my 2005 Chevy Malibu as there was no way to retrofit an audio adapter in that radio, and it was cheaper than replacing the barely-used but no-longer-functional CD player.
When listening to 104.9, if I stand in a particular location in my room, I get 104.5 instead.
I don't know my local stations, but I do enjoy radio.garden.
Regarding things that stop working, the digital clock in my 2004 Acura TL can no longer be adjusted. The software for the time and date worked up to 2021 and now no longer functions; Acura is unwilling to update it. So during DST the clock is about 57 minutes slow (at this time of year, it's off by a couple of minutes). If I want it to be accurate, I have to pull a certain fuse and reinsert it at the correct time of night, and that's too much trouble. So I just have to remind myself not to rely on the in-car clock for eight months a year.
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 18, 2021, 02:07:54 PM
Regarding things that stop working, the digital clock in my 2004 Acura TL can no longer be adjusted. The software for the time and date worked up to 2021 and now no longer functions; Acura is unwilling to update it. So during DST the clock is about 57 minutes slow (at this time of year, it's off by a couple of minutes). If I want it to be accurate, I have to pull a certain fuse and reinsert it at the correct time of night, and that's too much trouble. So I just have to remind myself not to rely on the in-car clock for eight months a year.
There's no manual hour and minute adjust? Who signed off on
that?
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 18, 2021, 05:17:09 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 18, 2021, 02:07:54 PM
Regarding things that stop working, the digital clock in my 2004 Acura TL can no longer be adjusted. The software for the time and date worked up to 2021 and now no longer functions; Acura is unwilling to update it. So during DST the clock is about 57 minutes slow (at this time of year, it's off by a couple of minutes). If I want it to be accurate, I have to pull a certain fuse and reinsert it at the correct time of night, and that's too much trouble. So I just have to remind myself not to rely on the in-car clock for eight months a year.
There's no manual hour and minute adjust? Who signed off on that?
Consistent Honda engineering I guess, considering my wife's 2015 Honda CR-V can be adjusted, as could my 2009 Accord, 2006 Civic, and 2001 Civic when I had them.
Any car with built-in GPS does it automatically due to the GPS itself.
Cars with subscriptions? How on earth did this idea fly through? :-o
With that, I think I have to cross out Toyota as my top car list.
X-(
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 18, 2021, 02:07:54 PM
Regarding things that stop working, the digital clock in my 2004 Acura TL can no longer be adjusted. The software for the time and date worked up to 2021 and now no longer functions; Acura is unwilling to update it. So during DST the clock is about 57 minutes slow (at this time of year, it's off by a couple of minutes). If I want it to be accurate, I have to pull a certain fuse and reinsert it at the correct time of night, and that's too much trouble. So I just have to remind myself not to rely on the in-car clock for eight months a year.
Here's a solution, move to the CT time zone during those 8 months. Problem solved. :bigass:
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 18, 2021, 05:17:09 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 18, 2021, 02:07:54 PM
Regarding things that stop working, the digital clock in my 2004 Acura TL can no longer be adjusted. The software for the time and date worked up to 2021 and now no longer functions; Acura is unwilling to update it. So during DST the clock is about 57 minutes slow (at this time of year, it's off by a couple of minutes). If I want it to be accurate, I have to pull a certain fuse and reinsert it at the correct time of night, and that's too much trouble. So I just have to remind myself not to rely on the in-car clock for eight months a year.
There's no manual hour and minute adjust? Who signed off on that?
In theory, there is, using the touchscreen–but that feature no longer works, and it's not a problem with my car's touchscreen because there are all sorts of reports of the same problem from other people with 2004 to 2006 TLs.
Radio Garden looks interesting, though it only has three of my presets in their system. Also, they should probably remove CKOI from their system since the stream is geoblocked.
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on December 18, 2021, 08:50:58 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 18, 2021, 02:07:54 PM
Regarding things that stop working, the digital clock in my 2004 Acura TL can no longer be adjusted. The software for the time and date worked up to 2021 and now no longer functions; Acura is unwilling to update it. So during DST the clock is about 57 minutes slow (at this time of year, it's off by a couple of minutes). If I want it to be accurate, I have to pull a certain fuse and reinsert it at the correct time of night, and that's too much trouble. So I just have to remind myself not to rely on the in-car clock for eight months a year.
Here's a solution, move to the CT time zone during those 8 months. Problem solved. :bigass:
The Connecticut time zone?
If it were me I would probably just pull the fuse and reinsert it at an arbitrary time, far enough off the actual time that I wouldn't be confused by it.
Or just put some masking tape over the clock so that you don't have to see an incorrect time.
Optionally, take a Sharpie and write some arbitrary time on the masking tape. This way, the clock will be correct twice a day. :bigass:
Quote from: ran4sh on December 17, 2021, 07:07:56 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 14, 2021, 01:28:10 AM
You'll end up having to do something silly like keep an outdated phone in your car with your music on it if you can't afford to trade your car in as often as you trade your phone in.
Or just listen to FM/AM radio or put your music on a USB drive
Instead of a standard flash drive, I just use SD cards and MicroSD cards with adapters, and stick them in the card reader... and
then I stick it in the USB drive.
As for the keys, it's nothing but the remote alarm and the old standard manufacturer's key for my 2002 Camry.
And this is my 3000th post! I was going to post a joke claiming that if I don't get a prize I'll pout and throw a tantrum like a baby, but I changed my mind.
Looks like Toyota is going to back track on this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfDoc6wegss
We'll see. They'll probably just make it free for a year or so and then try again.
It's a lot harder to make customers swallow paying for something that was free before and then suddenly has a fee attached to it than it is to have it cost money from the very start. Once it's free, people see it as being valueless and are more reluctant to pay for it than if it had been originally priced at, say, $1.
Case in point, water at a fast food restaurant. Water is free, but soda costs over $1...even though the difference in cost to the seller is on the order of a few cents. But people are used to paying for soda and getting water for "free" out of the tap at home, so a restaurant is able to sell soda for a ridiculous markup, while not being able to charge anything for water.
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 25, 2021, 02:23:29 PM
It's a lot harder to make customers swallow paying for something that was free before and then suddenly has a fee attached to it than it is to have it cost money from the very start. Once it's free, people see it as being valueless and are more reluctant to pay for it than if it had been originally priced at, say, $1.
Case in point, water at a fast food restaurant. Water is free, but soda costs over $1...even though the difference in cost to the seller is on the order of a few cents. But people are used to paying for soda and getting water for "free" out of the tap at home, so a restaurant is able to sell soda for a ridiculous markup, while not being able to charge anything for water.
No doubt. However, consumer preference is not necessarily determinative. Especially with the whole
X as a service business model, which tends to eliminate all other options.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 13, 2021, 05:51:46 PM
I hate this shit where you "buy" something but don't actually own it. The future wasn't supposed to suck.
:clap:
Quote from: vdeane on December 18, 2021, 10:53:43 PM
Radio Garden looks interesting, though it only has three of my presets in their system. Also, they should probably remove CKOI from their system since the stream is geoblocked.
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on December 18, 2021, 08:50:58 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 18, 2021, 02:07:54 PM
Regarding things that stop working, the digital clock in my 2004 Acura TL can no longer be adjusted. The software for the time and date worked up to 2021 and now no longer functions; Acura is unwilling to update it. So during DST the clock is about 57 minutes slow (at this time of year, it's off by a couple of minutes). If I want it to be accurate, I have to pull a certain fuse and reinsert it at the correct time of night, and that's too much trouble. So I just have to remind myself not to rely on the in-car clock for eight months a year.
Here's a solution, move to the CT time zone during those 8 months. Problem solved. :bigass:
The Connecticut time zone?
:-D
Quote from: kkt on December 25, 2021, 05:30:20 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 13, 2021, 05:51:46 PM
I hate this shit where you "buy" something but don't actually own it. The future wasn't supposed to suck.
:clap:
Has the future ever really been what we've all wanted?
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 25, 2021, 05:52:41 PM
Quote from: kkt on December 25, 2021, 05:30:20 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on December 13, 2021, 05:51:46 PM
I hate this shit where you "buy" something but don't actually own it. The future wasn't supposed to suck.
:clap:
Has the future ever really been what we've all wanted?
Even in the future, nothing works.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211226/f81d6311233078a2e8a4e3e92aa257e4.jpg)
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 18, 2021, 05:17:09 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 18, 2021, 02:07:54 PM
Regarding things that stop working, the digital clock in my 2004 Acura TL can no longer be adjusted. The software for the time and date worked up to 2021 and now no longer functions; Acura is unwilling to update it. So during DST the clock is about 57 minutes slow (at this time of year, it's off by a couple of minutes). If I want it to be accurate, I have to pull a certain fuse and reinsert it at the correct time of night, and that's too much trouble. So I just have to remind myself not to rely on the in-car clock for eight months a year.
There's no manual hour and minute adjust? Who signed off on that?
This sounds like an echo Y2K issue. Some bit of code in that system stores the year as two digits, because rather than changing that the kludge fix way back when was to make values from 0-20 = 20XX while leaving 21-99 as 19XX. Then, some other bit of code which is necessary to update the time has an internal epoch for which 1921 is not a valid date, so it crashes when you try to launch it and the time cannot be updated.
Upshot is the clock may be able to be changed again come 2070, if the car lasts that long. :-D
Quote from: Duke87 on December 26, 2021, 11:14:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 18, 2021, 05:17:09 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on December 18, 2021, 02:07:54 PM
Regarding things that stop working, the digital clock in my 2004 Acura TL can no longer be adjusted. The software for the time and date worked up to 2021 and now no longer functions; Acura is unwilling to update it. So during DST the clock is about 57 minutes slow (at this time of year, it's off by a couple of minutes). If I want it to be accurate, I have to pull a certain fuse and reinsert it at the correct time of night, and that's too much trouble. So I just have to remind myself not to rely on the in-car clock for eight months a year.
There's no manual hour and minute adjust? Who signed off on that?
This sounds like an echo Y2K issue. Some bit of code in that system stores the year as two digits, because rather than changing that the kludge fix way back when was to make values from 0-20 = 20XX while leaving 21-99 as 19XX. Then, some other bit of code which is necessary to update the time has an internal epoch for which 1921 is not a valid date, so it crashes when you try to launch it and the time cannot be updated.
Upshot is the clock may be able to be changed again come 2070, if the car lasts that long. :-D
If a year between 1921-1969 would just crash the system, why not assign 21-69 to be 20xx instead of remaining 19xx?
Quote from: vdeane on December 27, 2021, 04:30:26 PM
If a year between 1921-1969 would just crash the system, why not assign 21-69 to be 20xx instead of remaining 19xx?
That would require that the people programming the system have successfully foreseen this would be a problem once the cars they were building got to be 15+ years old. At least one of the conflicting bits of code (assuming I am correct about the nature of the problem) was probably written by others, so they likely did not.
It's not like this problem is unique to Acura either. You may recall how at midnight on January 1, 2020 all of NYC's parking meters suddenly ceased being able to accept credit cards, because the meters were timestamping transactions as being in 1920 and card issuers were thus rejecting them as invalid.
They were contracted to make a fix for the y2k problem, not to prevent it from happening again :)
The vast majority of modern computers internally store dates and times as the number of seconds since midnight on January 1, 1970. Times before then stored as negative numbers, of course. Thus if you have any sort of device that's having trouble with arbitrary dates and times, the device manufacturer decided to code time in an idiosyncratic way and should be whapped in the face with a rolled-up newspaper.
Of course, eventually the number of seconds since midnight on January 1, 1970 will be too big for computers to handle, unless you...get a bigger computer. For 32-bit computers, date overflow will happen in the early morning hours of January 19, 2038, at which point the date will reset to December 13, 1901. Of course, for 64-bit computers like the one you're probably reading this on, the overflow date is 292 billion years from now, so the problem is already solved, but there are some embedded systems that only have 32-bit processors that basically can't be updated without junking the device they're installed in.
Meanwhile, my point and shoot digital camera can only store years between 2006 and 2025 for whatever reason. Sometime in the next four years, I'm going to need to replace it unless I decide to do some post-processing to fix the year metadata on all photos. Probably easier just to replace (especially as it probably is showing its age; I've had it since 2007), presuming point and shoot cameras are still made then.
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2021, 12:55:33 PM
Meanwhile, my point and shoot digital camera can only store years between 2006 and 2025 for whatever reason. Sometime in the next four years, I'm going to need to replace it unless I decide to do some post-processing to fix the year metadata on all photos. Probably easier just to replace (especially as it probably is showing its age; I've had it since 2007), presuming point and shoot cameras are still made then.
That doesn't even make sense as anything but an arbitrary restriction; 20 is 10100, so if you're dealing with a 5-bit restriction (and who uses
five bits?!) you should still at least have a range of 31 years (11111 = 31).
Since you use Linux, I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to write a script of some kind (shell, Python, Perl, what have you) that adds 20 years to the EXIF date of any file given to it.
Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.
Quote from: bugo on December 28, 2021, 04:39:00 PM
Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.
Land Rovers say hi. The old joke that 90% of all Land Rovers made are still on the road; the other 10% actually made it home.
Quote from: bugo on December 28, 2021, 04:39:00 PM
Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.
They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.
Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.
Quote from: SectorZ on December 28, 2021, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: bugo on December 28, 2021, 04:39:00 PM
Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.
They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.
Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.
I feel like Kia is the one that has taken advantage the most.
Quote from: SectorZ on December 28, 2021, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: bugo on December 28, 2021, 04:39:00 PM
Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.
They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.
Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.
Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else. Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2021, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 28, 2021, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: bugo on December 28, 2021, 04:39:00 PM
Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.
They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.
Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.
Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else. Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.
:clap:
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2021, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 28, 2021, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: bugo on December 28, 2021, 04:39:00 PM
Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.
They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.
Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.
Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else. Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.
Once rear view cameras became mandatory, so did larger screens.
And steering wheel buttons along with voice control allow to minimal touchscreen use while driving.
Quote from: kalvado on December 28, 2021, 10:23:04 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2021, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 28, 2021, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: bugo on December 28, 2021, 04:39:00 PM
Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.
They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.
Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.
Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else. Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.
Once rear view cameras became mandatory, so did larger screens.
And steering wheel buttons along with voice control allow to minimal touchscreen use while driving.
Modern touchscreens will also lock you out of doing much of anything while the car is driving, unless you confirm that you're a passenger.
I don't know, it seems like having calls, a GPS, and music integrated with a touchscreen and some basic controls in the wheel is a much safer option than the old ways of having these things while driving.
Quote from: Molandfreak on December 28, 2021, 11:56:05 PM
Modern touchscreens will also lock you out of doing much of anything while the car is driving, unless you confirm that you're a passenger.
A person would never lie to a computer, would they?
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 29, 2021, 01:39:20 AM
Quote from: Molandfreak on December 28, 2021, 11:56:05 PM
Modern touchscreens will also lock you out of doing much of anything while the car is driving, unless you confirm that you're a passenger.
A person would never lie to a computer, would they?
Or a weight sensor in the passenger seat, such it was for seat belt compliance.
Quote from: Big John on December 29, 2021, 01:57:11 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on December 29, 2021, 01:39:20 AM
Quote from: Molandfreak on December 28, 2021, 11:56:05 PM
Modern touchscreens will also lock you out of doing much of anything while the car is driving, unless you confirm that you're a passenger.
A person would never lie to a computer, would they?
Or a weight sensor in the passenger seat, such it was for seat belt compliance.
It would be pretty bogus if you weren't allowed to change the radio station or climate controls because your passenger seat weight sensor went out.
I have yet to have a touch-screen prevent me from using the climate controls or most basic radio buttons at any point in vehicle operation. I still think they should be in their own panels, because I feel that HVAC operation works best with actual tactile buttons, switches, or knobs...touching a flat screen seems to take longer to react to great changes when only very short bursts of time are available.
If moving, usually these infotainment systems prevent the driver from deactivating some features; vehicle-operation features, scrolling though an album collection, punching in a direct address in Maps/GPS/Navigation, but not preventing me from accessing the temperature controls or playing with the radio volume.
That said, there's always a few outliers that made their own multi-function displays which over-nannied or made it so tricky to perform basic operations that you may as well wait until you're stuck at a long traffic light.
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2021, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 28, 2021, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: bugo on December 28, 2021, 04:39:00 PM
Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.
They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.
Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.
Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else. Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.
I meant advancing in terms of reliability, not technology. Honda has had a TON of problems with long-term reliability in certain years and models. I thought I prefaced that in my original statement but I guess not.
Quote from: SectorZ on December 29, 2021, 07:55:19 AM
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2021, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 28, 2021, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: bugo on December 28, 2021, 04:39:00 PM
Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.
They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.
Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.
Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else. Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.
I meant advancing in terms of reliability, not technology. Honda has had a TON of problems with long-term reliability in certain years and models. I thought I prefaced that in my original statement but I guess not.
Wasn't there an issue with Japanese manufactured cars not containing galvanized steel in their body panels? I seem to recall that's was a significant reason why a lot of 1980s era Hondas and Toyotas disappeared way being the domestics when I was in High School in Lansing.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2021, 09:14:02 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 29, 2021, 07:55:19 AM
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2021, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 28, 2021, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: bugo on December 28, 2021, 04:39:00 PM
Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.
They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.
Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.
Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else. Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.
I meant advancing in terms of reliability, not technology. Honda has had a TON of problems with long-term reliability in certain years and models. I thought I prefaced that in my original statement but I guess not.
Wasn't there an issue with Japanese manufactured cars not containing galvanized steel in their body panels? I seem to recall that's was a significant reason why a lot of 1980s era Hondas and Toyotas disappeared way being the domestics when I was in High School in Lansing.
I, for one, got a transmission problem in my 2001 civic. This was a mass defect with pretty high occurrence rate on that year and model. 2002 Accord had the same problem and they won a class action over the issue. I had to pay for my fix out of pocket though.
https://redmountainfunding.co/blog/best-used-honda-cars-what-models-and-years-are-most-reliable/
QuoteSimilar to the Accord, the most common complaints about the Honda Civic were issues with the transmission. The 2001 model was the worst year for Honda Civics. People spent an average of $2,300 fixing transmission failure after 104,000 miles.
As the other datapoint, my wife bought her second CR-V in 2019, and is pretty happy about it.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2021, 09:14:02 AM
Wasn't there an issue with Japanese manufactured cars not containing galvanized steel in their body panels? I seem to recall that's was a significant reason why a lot of 1980s era Hondas and Toyotas disappeared way being the domestics when I was in High School in Lansing.
Back in the old days, the main issue was corrosion from dissimilar metals, which was acerbated by the fact that the new cars were exposed to way too much saltwater air on the trip over from Japan. Most of the American cars also had the dissimilar metal issue as well. For years and years, it was just assumed that there wasn't anything that could be done to stop this corrosion process. But nowadays, there is a lot of design effort to connect parts such that dissimilar metals will never make contact with each other, and when you can't prove such then using identical metals to make the hard contact connections.
It is my impression that it is nearly impossible to find a source for carframe + body + bolts + washer + lockwasher that all are made from the same exact steel composition. I used to get asked this question all the time, but I was only responsible for dealing with the safety issues related to the long-term corrosion issues. On railcars, we had the additional issue that you could get a lot of leaking battery voltages floating around through the grounding systems (this can also happen in cars and trucks, and is probably going to get much worse with higher voltage car batteries). If you think saltwalter is bad for corrosion, how about a steady electrical current?
Quote from: Dirt Roads on December 29, 2021, 10:59:07 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2021, 09:14:02 AM
Wasn't there an issue with Japanese manufactured cars not containing galvanized steel in their body panels? I seem to recall that's was a significant reason why a lot of 1980s era Hondas and Toyotas disappeared way being the domestics when I was in High School in Lansing.
Back in the old days, the main issue was corrosion from dissimilar metals, which was acerbated by the fact that the new cars were exposed to way too much saltwater air on the trip over from Japan. Most of the American cars also had the dissimilar metal issue as well. For years and years, it was just assumed that there wasn't anything that could be done to stop this corrosion process. But nowadays, there is a lot of design effort to connect parts such that dissimilar metals will never make contact with each other, and when you can't prove such then using identical metals to make the hard contact connections.
It is my impression that it is nearly impossible to find a source for carframe + body + bolts + washer + lockwasher that all are made from the same exact steel composition. I used to get asked this question all the time, but I was only responsible for dealing with the safety issues related to the long-term corrosion issues. On railcars, we had the additional issue that you could get a lot of leaking battery voltages floating around through the grounding systems (this can also happen in cars and trucks, and is probably going to get much worse with higher voltage car batteries). If you think saltwalter is bad for corrosion, how about a steady electrical current?
I had a pretty weird rust issue which I believe originated from a copper penny which fell down to the bottom of the trunk..
As for hardware, I thought stainless steel nuts and bolts should take care of most issues?
It always seems to be rust issues that gets cars in the end. Between my Mom's 84 (I think) Accord, 97 Accord (which I inherited), 09 Civic, and my 14 Civic, we never had issues beyond routine maintenance that weren't rust related. The 84 Accord had it the worst - the whole frame was rusted in the end. That said, rust issues is probably a given for anything in upstate NY.
Quote from: kalvado on December 28, 2021, 10:23:04 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2021, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 28, 2021, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: bugo on December 28, 2021, 04:39:00 PM
Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.
They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.
Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.
Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else. Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.
Once rear view cameras became mandatory, so did larger screens.
And steering wheel buttons along with voice control allow to minimal touchscreen use while driving.
My Civic has a backup camera and still controls everything with regular buttons. It even has a few steering wheel buttons that are handy for the radio. I don't like the idea of a car (or pretty much anything else) listening to everything I say. I've heard enough horror stories about the Alexa incidents a few years ago. And before anyone says "smartphone", a mic is an integral component of a phone, so we have to accept such there. Doesn't mean we need to proliferate the problem, especially to places like cars where the people designing and programming them care about security and privacy even less.
I will say there, there is one silver lining to having the radio presets on a touchscreen: they're not limited to two banks of six (three if we're including AM) and can be one big bank of many more.
Quote from: formulanone on December 29, 2021, 05:56:36 AM
made it so tricky to perform basic operations that you may as well wait until you're stuck at a long traffic light.
*cough* Tesla *cough*
Live in infamy moment (which I'll probably regret one day): Teslas aren't real cars. They're expensive appliances that look like cars, but designed, sold, and maintained by the standards and attitudes of a cell phone provider.
Overpriced junk that's undeniably ahead of its time; but with a terrible half-life and limited aftermarket support.
Quote from: formulanone on December 29, 2021, 03:03:08 PM
Line in infamy moment (which I'll probably regret one day): Teslas aren't real cars. They're expensive appliances that look like cars, but designed, sold, and maintained by the standards and attitudes of a cell phone provider.
Overpriced junk that's undeniably ahead of it's time; but with a terrible half-life and limited aftermarket support.
The biggest issue i have with Tesla is they take 60 minutes to fully charge even at the newest V3 Superchargers. There are cases where you will want to fully charge your EV especially in the middle of winter when you only get half of the estimated range to begin with... batteries just plain suck in the cold. Taking 3 minutes to fill up my gas tank vs. 60 minutes to charge the EV... that additional 57 minutes is too much of an inconvenience for me personally but to each their own.
Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2021, 10:56:39 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 29, 2021, 09:14:02 AM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 29, 2021, 07:55:19 AM
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2021, 08:47:20 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 28, 2021, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: bugo on December 28, 2021, 04:39:00 PM
Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.
They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.
Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.
Meanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else. Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.
I meant advancing in terms of reliability, not technology. Honda has had a TON of problems with long-term reliability in certain years and models. I thought I prefaced that in my original statement but I guess not.
Wasn't there an issue with Japanese manufactured cars not containing galvanized steel in their body panels? I seem to recall that's was a significant reason why a lot of 1980s era Hondas and Toyotas disappeared way being the domestics when I was in High School in Lansing.
I, for one, got a transmission problem in my 2001 civic. This was a mass defect with pretty high occurrence rate on that year and model. 2002 Accord had the same problem and they won a class action over the issue. I had to pay for my fix out of pocket though.
https://redmountainfunding.co/blog/best-used-honda-cars-what-models-and-years-are-most-reliable/
I had an '01 Civic but thankfully got rid of it before that. I had an '06 Civic that had the engine literally start cracking in two. I was patient zero for that, and surprisingly they paid $4500 of the $4800 to replace the engine since I was 7,000 miles beyond the powertrain warranty expiration. Later on it became a big issue for '06-'08 Civics, and inevitably they even repaid the $300 out of pocket I paid to get it fixed a year later.
My wife's '15 CR-V vibrates horribly stopped at idle, and the dealership can't figure out why. Even when I pointed out that it's doing so because the idle is so low it's almost stalling. 98K miles and still can't get it resolved.
Quote from: kalvado on December 29, 2021, 11:02:21 AM
As for hardware, I thought stainless steel nuts and bolts should take care of most issues?
Nope. Even if you get the same grade of stainless steel, there will be enough differences in each furnace run (batch) that will be significant enough to trigger corrosion. Some manufacturers do use a variety stainless steel parts with the same grade in order to reduce the long-term corrosion in case of contact. Then they will use neoprene sleeve and washers to separate the metals to avoid short-term corrosion.
Interestingly, I had a problem with a Toyota SUV whereby the robot overtorqued the bolts attaching the "bed" to the frame. The neoprene washers cracked, which led to a suction action ever time rainwater sprayed up into the wheel well. That water ran under the carpet in the trunk, then somehow dripped down into vapor tank filter. Whenever the filter was full of water, the oxygen sensors went out. And, of course, the microscopic metals pulled from the frame (from corrosion) eventually corroded out the oxygen sensors. Over and over and over. Fortunately, Toyota replaced the vapor tank filter (once during the warranty and five times afterwards) at no cost to me. That was some $950 a pop. They never fixed the problem and I traded down after only 3 years.
I've officially retired my 2000 Toyota Tacoma. Applied for a junk title last week so I won't have to pay taxes on it any more. The frame has rusted to the point that you can visibly see how the vehicle dips between the cab and the bed.
It has 230K miles on it and about the only things I ever had to replace on it were the starter and the power steering pump.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 29, 2021, 04:48:53 PM
I've officially retired my 2000 Toyota Tacoma. Applied for a junk title last week so I won't have to pay taxes on it any more. The frame has rusted to the point that you can visibly see how the vehicle dips between the cab and the bed.
It has 230K miles on it and about the only things I ever had to replace on it were the starter and the power steering pump.
Looks like you got your money's worth on your Taco.
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2021, 08:47:20 PMMeanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else. Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.
Per this article (https://markholtz.info/2ho):
QuoteOn March 31, 2014, the U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT) and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) declared that by May 1, 2018, all cars, SUVs, trucks and vans would be required to have rear-view visibility systems.
You might as well include passive information on that screen. Also, having the Bluetooth connection allows not only for hands-free mobile phone operation, but also for mobile audio such as a audiobook or my own tunes. This beats what passes for terrestrial radio nowadays.
I am also challenged on what additional applications are needed beyond a navigation application and an audio application. (OK, add in a voice recognition app so that I can say "Ok Google, open the pod bay doors" to open up the garage door and deactivate the alarm system.) I can understand wanting to have Yelp, GasBuddy, or a charging station as an application when you are parked so that you can set your destination. Both Android Auto (https://markholtz.info/androidautorules) and CarPlay (https://markholtz.info/carplayrules) have rules when developing the app that emphasize minimal driver distraction. Games don't qualify.
Just remember, many features that we take for granted nowadays were once considered "techno gizmos" such as intermittent wipers, cruise control, anti-lock brakes, and even FM radios. These features started out on the luxury models, but tricked down to basic models. Some of the technology has evolved and improved (car CD changer in the trunk, anyone?). While I have some good memories of the first vehicles that I drove, I remember also the lower fuel economy of those vehicles or the limitations imposed by the technology at the time, including remembering to take with me the faceplate of my radio to avoid it getting stolen.
Quote from: formulanone on December 29, 2021, 03:03:08 PMLine in infamy moment (which I'll probably regret one day): Teslas aren't real cars. They're expensive appliances that look like cars, but designed, sold, and maintained by the standards and attitudes of a cell phone provider.
Overpriced junk that's undeniably ahead of it's time; but with a terrible half-life and limited aftermarket support.
Big boom big boom big boom.
It would have cost too much to replace the batteries on that Tesla. In addition, there is no Carplay, Android Auto, or Alexa support on even the newest Teslas. This is especially surprising since they are supposed to be the most "technologically advanced" vehicles.
Quote from: hbelkins on December 29, 2021, 04:48:53 PMI've officially retired my 2000 Toyota Tacoma. Applied for a junk title last week so I won't have to pay taxes on it any more. The frame has rusted to the point that you can visibly see how the vehicle dips between the cab and the bed.
It has 230K miles on it and about the only things I ever had to replace on it were the starter and the power steering pump.
You can probably give it to charity and take the tax write-off. That's what I did with my mothers 20yo car a few years ago because the seals were all corroded and fluids were leaking.
Speaking of transmissions, the 1997 Accord my Mom and I had included a first model hydraulic clutch. Given that it was a manual, this was very not fun, especially in traffic. The timing was a nightmare and it was stiff enough to hurt if it had to be held down for any length of time. That vehicle is why I cannot imagine buying a car without a test drive first (a mistake my parents made when buying it; they did test drive a manual Accord, but not that specific one, and their clutches behaved vastly differently).
Quote from: ZLoth on December 29, 2021, 06:47:57 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 28, 2021, 08:47:20 PMMeanwhile, those of us who prefer to buy cars and not techno gizmos on wheels like that they're not "advancing" like everyone else. Touchscreens aren't exactly safe to use while driving either, no idea why they're all the rage right now.
Per this article (https://markholtz.info/2ho):
QuoteOn March 31, 2014, the U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT) and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) declared that by May 1, 2018, all cars, SUVs, trucks and vans would be required to have rear-view visibility systems.
You might as well include passive information on that screen. Also, having the Bluetooth connection allows not only for hands-free mobile phone operation, but also for mobile audio such as a audiobook or my own tunes. This beats what passes for terrestrial radio nowadays.
I am also challenged on what additional applications are needed beyond a navigation application and an audio application. (OK, add in a voice recognition app so that I can say "Ok Google, open the pod bay doors" to open up the garage door and deactivate the alarm system.) I can understand wanting to have Yelp, GasBuddy, or a charging station as an application when you are parked so that you can set your destination. Both Android Auto (https://markholtz.info/androidautorules) and CarPlay (https://markholtz.info/carplayrules) have rules when developing the app that emphasize minimal driver distraction. Games don't qualify.
Just remember, many features that we take for granted nowadays were once considered "techno gizmos" such as intermittent wipers, cruise control, anti-lock brakes, and even FM radios. These features started out on the luxury models, but tricked down to basic models. Some of the technology has evolved and improved (car CD changer in the trunk, anyone?). While I have some good memories of the first vehicles that I drove, I remember also the lower fuel economy of those vehicles or the limitations imposed by the technology at the time, including remembering to take with me the faceplate of my radio to avoid it getting stolen.
As I mentioned, by 2014 Civic has a backup camera and no touchscreen. Clearly a backup camera does not make a touchscreen mandatory. The screen does do other things, too - it also has the clock, odometer, trip odometers, temperature, radio display, and it also is used to display full-screen messages (such as the door ajar message, or the TPMS system) and to navigate the settings menu using the buttons on the steering wheel.
I don't use navigation and have no intention of ever doing so (as you can probably guess, I am very much not on board with the efforts to make cars self-driving, and I want to keep driving myself; if I could, I'd put in place a law making it illegal to manufacture cars that don't have a manual driving mode or for states or anyone else to designate certain roads as self-driving only); unfortunately, EVs kinda need some form of in-car navigation due to battery preconditioning for charging, so it looks like some form of self-driving functionality will be shoved down our throats whether we want it or not (that plus safety mandates). I'm also not on board with the way the tech industry is taking things and the trend to devices trying to predict what you want rather than letting you be in full control (it's the reason I don't use Windows at home any more). How I interact with technology hasn't substantially changed in over a decade; even my smartphone is just a supplement to the way I've done things for years, not a replacement.
I have an aux cable for when I want to stream audio in the car, but I haven't in years (after deciding that I liked hearing just the sound of the road when I travel out of radio range; it's since become associated with roadtrips), though I still keep a copy of my music library on my phone and the cable in the car just in case, though I need to figure out how the playlist functionality on VLC's mobile app works. I know enough about privacy/security (and the lack thereof on car software) to be leery of connecting my phone via any means that can exchange data. Plus the in-car system for playing music from an iPod on my Mom's 2009 Civic was absolute garbage, and I'm in no mood for a repeat.
Quote from: tradephoric on December 29, 2021, 03:27:29 PM
The biggest issue i have with Tesla is they take 60 minutes to fully charge even at the newest V3 Superchargers. There are cases where you will want to fully charge your EV especially in the middle of winter when you only get half of the estimated range to begin with... batteries just plain suck in the cold. Taking 3 minutes to fill up my gas tank vs. 60 minutes to charge the EV... that additional 57 minutes is too much of an inconvenience for me personally but to each their own.
This isn't an issue with Tesla, it's a limitation of lithium-ion battery technology as it currently exists. Notice how if you plug your phone in when the battery is low it... takes an hour (maybe a little more) to charge. This isn't a coincidence. Try to charge a battery too fast and you risk physically damaging it, in the worst case scenario triggering thermal runaway which will result in whatever you were trying to charge getting burnt to a crisp. How fast you can safely charge a battery from empty to full varies depending on the type of battery, but with lithium-ion the limit is about an hour and nothing currently available for common consumer use allows for any faster.
That said, yes, Tesla vehicles do also have design shortcomings... stemming largely from institutional differences. Every other automaker has close to if not over a century of experience making cars, and usually tends to have a culture of "if it works, don't fuck with it", at least when it comes to anything critical. Tesla, meanwhile, is still very new at this in comparison... and at their core they're a tech company, not a car company, which means they have an institutional culture of "fuck with everything, we want to be flashy, new, and different". This results in them having some genuinely good ideas (who needs car dealerships anyway?) but also some horrible ones (when a vehicle's battery dies, the wheels locking with no way for the driver to manually unlock them turns the car needlessly into a potentially dangerous obstacle on the road)
My old Lexus GS300 had some electrical problems that were the result of an accident from the previous owner, but otherwise the only mechanical issue I had with it was the fuel pump going out. That was a simple fix, surprisingly, only taking about half an hour for the whole job. Other than that it was just normal 250,000 mile car things. The Aristo that replaced it has been much more problematic despite having a third of the mileage. A lot of early 90s Toyotas and Lexi, particularly rear-drive ones, have ECU problems starting around 25-30 years of age. Mine is 29, so it's right there. Replacing the capacitors in the ECU is supposed to fix the problem, as rolling the dice with used ones on eBay has netted me one that sends fuel to one cylinder constantly and one that started to show signs of failure 2 weeks after installing it. The only remaining ones are overseas and rebuilding one of the ones I have already is cheaper than their asking prices.
Quote from: Duke87 on December 29, 2021, 11:54:42 PMEvery other automaker has close to if not over a century of experience making cars, and usually tends to have a culture of "if it works, don't fuck with it", at least when it comes to anything critical.
It's a two-edged sword with the current car manufacturing process. There is validity in the argument "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", but that has lead to the reliance on the older components... those same components that are now in short supply and have caused the price of both new and used vehicles to shoot through the roof. I get it... the vehicles have to be designed to survive the hot Phoenix summers and the bone-chilling Michigan winters. But, it shouldn't feel like the current car technology is designed for the older Android phone that I'm shipping back this afternoon as a trade in.
The car makers can only dedicate so much of a car "budget" on a car infoentertainment system. And, yes, it shows with some of the car manufacturer internally-developed apps. When the powers that be look at the car consumer as yet another recurring revenue stream instead of bundling the feature into the price of the car, the consumer gets nickeled and dimed. Many people just consider their vehicles to be their daily driver with maybe a occasional out of town trip.
Oh look, Tesla is having a safety recall.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-recalls-over-475000-electric-vehicles-2021-12-30/
Quote from: Takumi on December 30, 2021, 11:41:32 AM
Oh look, Tesla is having a safety recall.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-recalls-over-475000-electric-vehicles-2021-12-30/
Over a rear view camera? That's weak sauce by recall standards.
Quote from: Duke87 on December 29, 2021, 11:54:42 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on December 29, 2021, 03:27:29 PM
The biggest issue i have with Tesla is they take 60 minutes to fully charge even at the newest V3 Superchargers. There are cases where you will want to fully charge your EV especially in the middle of winter when you only get half of the estimated range to begin with... batteries just plain suck in the cold. Taking 3 minutes to fill up my gas tank vs. 60 minutes to charge the EV... that additional 57 minutes is too much of an inconvenience for me personally but to each their own.
This isn't an issue with Tesla, it's a limitation of lithium-ion battery technology as it currently exists. Notice how if you plug your phone in when the battery is low it... takes an hour (maybe a little more) to charge. This isn't a coincidence. Try to charge a battery too fast and you risk physically damaging it, in the worst case scenario triggering thermal runaway which will result in whatever you were trying to charge getting burnt to a crisp. How fast you can safely charge a battery from empty to full varies depending on the type of battery, but with lithium-ion the limit is about an hour and nothing currently available for common consumer use allows for any faster.
That said, yes, Tesla vehicles do also have design shortcomings... stemming largely from institutional differences. Every other automaker has close to if not over a century of experience making cars, and usually tends to have a culture of "if it works, don't fuck with it", at least when it comes to anything critical. Tesla, meanwhile, is still very new at this in comparison... and at their core they're a tech company, not a car company, which means they have an institutional culture of "fuck with everything, we want to be flashy, new, and different". This results in them having some genuinely good ideas (who needs car dealerships anyway?) but also some horrible ones (when a vehicle's battery dies, the wheels locking with no way for the driver to manually unlock them turns the car needlessly into a potentially dangerous obstacle on the road)
And even Tesla's direct sale model exposed benefits to the dealer model. If you want a new ICE car, you go to the dealer, test drive something from the lot, and if you like it, you buy it and have the ability to trade in your car (even if you don't get much money, it's useful for not having to figure out the logistics of getting rid of it). Not so with Tesla. Even if you live somewhere with a sales center and can test drive something, that's not the car you're buying. You then get directed to the online order portal where you order a custom-made car and then wait weeks/months/years for it to be assembled. And because of Tesla's QA/QC issues, you don't know what you're going to get. If there's a significant issue(s) (there
will be minor issues because it's Tesla...), then it needs to be taken back for service, and that can be another few weeks/months, during which you're dealing with Tesla's abysmal customer service.
Which brings me to the
other advantage of dealers. With dealers, if one of them has bad customer service or rips people off, you can go to another dealer. With Tesla, your only choice is to never buy a Tesla car again (perhaps even getting rid of your current one with explosives). That's compounded by the fact that other automakers and charging networks haven't figured things out as well. If you want an EV and like long roadtrips (or even if you don't but don't have home charging) but hate Tesla, you're kinda screwed right now.
To take a brief moment on charging speed, it's worth noting that charging even that fast or to 100% with regularity is not good for the battery. As such, those who need to rely on charge stations are wearing out their batteries faster than those who don't.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 30, 2021, 12:15:03 PM
Quote from: Takumi on December 30, 2021, 11:41:32 AM
Oh look, Tesla is having a safety recall.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-recalls-over-475000-electric-vehicles-2021-12-30/
Over a rear view camera? That’s weak sauce by recall standards.
You never know, there's the chance that affects something with drivability.
That's not to say other manufacturers do not issue recalls or campaigns to replace items which do not necessarily affect drivability nor safety. But usually that's because lots of people have either complained of the problem, and there was no fix, or duplication of the concern was previously idiopathic*. The fact that there's no repair ready until February may mean it has to go into the Recall phase (usually NHTSA initiated) rather than Campaign (manufacturer-inspired). This occurs with all sorts of brands.
* of all the increasingly obnoxious jargon that's floating around, this is actually one of my favorite of the last decade
Quote from: formulanone on December 30, 2021, 03:21:40 PM
* of all the increasingly obnoxious jargon that's floating around, this is actually one of my favorite of the last decade
A term used very frequently by defense lawyers in toxic tort claims...
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 30, 2021, 12:15:03 PM
Quote from: Takumi on December 30, 2021, 11:41:32 AM
Oh look, Tesla is having a safety recall.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-recalls-over-475000-electric-vehicles-2021-12-30/
Over a rear view camera? That’s weak sauce by recall standards.
Also the part about trunk latches not working properly.
Quote from: Takumi on December 30, 2021, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 30, 2021, 12:15:03 PM
Quote from: Takumi on December 30, 2021, 11:41:32 AM
Oh look, Tesla is having a safety recall.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-recalls-over-475000-electric-vehicles-2021-12-30/
Over a rear view camera? That's weak sauce by recall standards.
Also the part about trunk latches not working properly.
Still, that's not major enough to not classify as anything but a run of the mill recall. Exploding Pinto this isn't.
Quote from: Rothman on December 30, 2021, 03:30:15 PM
Quote from: formulanone on December 30, 2021, 03:21:40 PM
* of all the increasingly obnoxious jargon that's floating around, this is actually one of my favorite of the last decade
A term used very frequently by defense lawyers in toxic tort claims...
It also describes my driving style and travel choices.
Quote from: Takumi on December 30, 2021, 12:57:09 AMA lot of early 90s Toyotas and Lexi, particularly rear-drive ones, have ECU problems starting around 25-30 years of age. Mine is 29, so it's right there. Replacing the capacitors in the ECU is supposed to fix the problem, as rolling the dice with used ones on eBay has netted me one that sends fuel to one cylinder constantly and one that started to show signs of failure 2 weeks after installing it. The only remaining ones are overseas and rebuilding one of the ones I have already is cheaper than their asking prices.
This issue (which I understand is caused by the Japanese manufacturers favoring capacitors that use quaternary ammonium salts and leak when they get old) is one of the main reasons I backed away from getting a very old LS as a hobby vehicle. There is someone on Club Lexus who has detailed rebuilding instructions for the ECU, complete with a shopping list for replacement capacitors, but that's still a fair bit of work with a repair kit for printed circuitry. Plus I think the instrument panel controller also needs rebuilding.
(American makes seem less vulnerable to this particular issue, though the instrument panel in my 27-year-old Saturn has been glitching on rare occasions since last September.)
Quote from: vdeane on December 30, 2021, 12:59:54 PMTo take a brief moment on charging speed, it's worth noting that charging even that fast or to 100% with regularity is not good for the battery. As such, those who need to rely on charge stations are wearing out their batteries faster than those who don't.
I think this issue may prove equally as significant as limited range for people who are accustomed to being able to take long roadtrips cheaply and conveniently in an internal-combustion car. More broadly, there is no guarantee that society will still support the hypermobile lifestyle when each of us faces the decision to transition to an electrically powered vehicle.
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 30, 2021, 04:16:09 PM
Quote from: Takumi on December 30, 2021, 03:59:22 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on December 30, 2021, 12:15:03 PM
Quote from: Takumi on December 30, 2021, 11:41:32 AM
Oh look, Tesla is having a safety recall.
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-recalls-over-475000-electric-vehicles-2021-12-30/
Over a rear view camera? That's weak sauce by recall standards.
Also the part about trunk latches not working properly.
Still, that's not major enough to not classify as anything but a run of the mill recall. Exploding Pinto this isn't.
The trunk issues are actually with the
front trunk. So yeah, a bit of an issue if that happens while one is driving. Imagine if your hood flew up while driving. A frunk is basically the same thing except with storage space instead of an engine.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 30, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
I think this issue may prove equally as significant as limited range for people who are accustomed to being able to take long roadtrips cheaply and conveniently in an internal-combustion car. More broadly, there is no guarantee that society will still support the hypermobile lifestyle when each of us faces the decision to transition to an electrically powered vehicle.
It's also worth noting that those who support EVs for environmental reasons are also likely to support curtailing our hypermobile lifestyle for the same reasons. To them, the difficulties in taking roadtrips is not a bug - it's a feature.
Between EVs and self-driving cars, I think there is a decent chance that roadgeekdom as a hobby will not exist as we know it 20-30 years from now.
Let me rephrase then. I'm not willing to jump on the "Tesla is total shit bandwagon" for this recall. Recalls have been a dime a dozen these days in the automotive industry. Teslas aren't for me either but there isn't a ton with this recall that's really out of the ordinary or will be notable towards the brand's image long term.
Quote from: J N Winkler on December 30, 2021, 05:37:52 PM
Quote from: Takumi on December 30, 2021, 12:57:09 AMA lot of early 90s Toyotas and Lexi, particularly rear-drive ones, have ECU problems starting around 25-30 years of age. Mine is 29, so it's right there. Replacing the capacitors in the ECU is supposed to fix the problem, as rolling the dice with used ones on eBay has netted me one that sends fuel to one cylinder constantly and one that started to show signs of failure 2 weeks after installing it. The only remaining ones are overseas and rebuilding one of the ones I have already is cheaper than their asking prices.
This issue (which I understand is caused by the Japanese manufacturers favoring capacitors that use quaternary ammonium salts and leak when they get old) is one of the main reasons I backed away from getting a very old LS as a hobby vehicle. There is someone on Club Lexus who has detailed rebuilding instructions for the ECU, complete with a shopping list for replacement capacitors, but that's still a fair bit of work with a repair kit for printed circuitry. Plus I think the instrument panel controller also needs rebuilding.
Yeah, I saw that thread when doing research. There's a shop in Texas called Relentless Motorsports that fully rebuilds the ECUs for less than the cost of a used one on eBay. I've sent one of mine off to them and hopefully that solves that. I'd purchase an aftermarket ECU, except they're multiple thousands of dollars to get working properly.
Sigh.... now this! From Wired:
A Fight Over the Right to Repair Cars Turns Ugly
In the wake of a voter-approved law, Subaru and Kia dealers in Massachusetts have disabled systems that allow remote starts and send maintenance alerts.QuoteChie Ferrelli loved her Subaru SUV, which she bought in 2020 because it made her feel safe. So when it was time for her husband, Marc, to purchase his own new car last summer, they returned to the Subaru dealer near their home in southeast Massachusetts. But there was a catch, one that made the couple mad: Marc's sedan wouldn't have access to the company's telematics system and the app that went along with it. No remote engine start in the freezing New England winter; no emergency assistance; no automated messages when the tire pressure was low or the oil needed changing. The worst part was that if the Ferrellis lived just a mile away, in Rhode Island, they would have the features. They bought the car. But thinking back, Marc says, if he had known about the issue before stepping into the dealership he "probably would have gone with Toyota."
Subaru disabled the telematics system and associated features on new cars registered in Massachusetts last year as part of a spat over a right-to-repair ballot measure approved, overwhelmingly, by the state's voters in 2020. The measure, which has been held up in the courts, required automakers to give car owners and independent mechanics more access to data about the car's internal systems.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2ih)
Sounds a lot like the spoiled child who says "You play the game
my way with
my rules, or I'm not playing at all."
Every company dreams of having a captive market that has to pay them a service charge every month or for repair information a bit less often.
Quote from: ZLoth on February 08, 2022, 12:30:47 PM
Sigh.... now this! From Wired:
A Fight Over the Right to Repair Cars Turns Ugly
In the wake of a voter-approved law, Subaru and Kia dealers in Massachusetts have disabled systems that allow remote starts and send maintenance alerts.QuoteChie Ferrelli loved her Subaru SUV, which she bought in 2020 because it made her feel safe. So when it was time for her husband, Marc, to purchase his own new car last summer, they returned to the Subaru dealer near their home in southeast Massachusetts. But there was a catch, one that made the couple mad: Marc's sedan wouldn't have access to the company's telematics system and the app that went along with it. No remote engine start in the freezing New England winter; no emergency assistance; no automated messages when the tire pressure was low or the oil needed changing. The worst part was that if the Ferrellis lived just a mile away, in Rhode Island, they would have the features. They bought the car. But thinking back, Marc says, if he had known about the issue before stepping into the dealership he "probably would have gone with Toyota."
Subaru disabled the telematics system and associated features on new cars registered in Massachusetts last year as part of a spat over a right-to-repair ballot measure approved, overwhelmingly, by the state's voters in 2020. The measure, which has been held up in the courts, required automakers to give car owners and independent mechanics more access to data about the car's internal systems.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2ih)
Sounds a lot like the spoiled child who says "You play the game my way with my rules, or I'm not playing at all."
Not being a lawyer, I don't know if the family would have a case or not, but on first glance one would think they do. They bought a car with certain features and the manufacturer disabled those features. How is this any different than the manufacturer somehow disabling the speedometer so you don't know how fast you're going, or the gas gauge so you don't know how much fuel you have left, or anything like that?
Quote from: hbelkins on February 08, 2022, 04:04:29 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 08, 2022, 12:30:47 PM
Sigh.... now this! From Wired:
A Fight Over the Right to Repair Cars Turns Ugly
In the wake of a voter-approved law, Subaru and Kia dealers in Massachusetts have disabled systems that allow remote starts and send maintenance alerts.QuoteChie Ferrelli loved her Subaru SUV, which she bought in 2020 because it made her feel safe. So when it was time for her husband, Marc, to purchase his own new car last summer, they returned to the Subaru dealer near their home in southeast Massachusetts. But there was a catch, one that made the couple mad: Marc's sedan wouldn't have access to the company's telematics system and the app that went along with it. No remote engine start in the freezing New England winter; no emergency assistance; no automated messages when the tire pressure was low or the oil needed changing. The worst part was that if the Ferrellis lived just a mile away, in Rhode Island, they would have the features. They bought the car. But thinking back, Marc says, if he had known about the issue before stepping into the dealership he "probably would have gone with Toyota."
Subaru disabled the telematics system and associated features on new cars registered in Massachusetts last year as part of a spat over a right-to-repair ballot measure approved, overwhelmingly, by the state's voters in 2020. The measure, which has been held up in the courts, required automakers to give car owners and independent mechanics more access to data about the car's internal systems.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2ih)
Sounds a lot like the spoiled child who says "You play the game my way with my rules, or I'm not playing at all."
Not being a lawyer, I don't know if the family would have a case or not, but on first glance one would think they do. They bought a car with certain features and the manufacturer disabled those features. How is this any different than the manufacturer somehow disabling the speedometer so you don't know how fast you're going, or the gas gauge so you don't know how much fuel you have left, or anything like that?
Non-essencial add-on services are not available for purchase. These are not safety critical systems, and they are not required for the car to be legally driven. My Subaru has neither remote start not remote oil change reminders. 62k and still going
without a single oil change
Quote from: hbelkins on February 08, 2022, 04:04:29 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 08, 2022, 12:30:47 PM
Sigh.... now this! From Wired:
A Fight Over the Right to Repair Cars Turns Ugly
In the wake of a voter-approved law, Subaru and Kia dealers in Massachusetts have disabled systems that allow remote starts and send maintenance alerts.QuoteChie Ferrelli loved her Subaru SUV, which she bought in 2020 because it made her feel safe. So when it was time for her husband, Marc, to purchase his own new car last summer, they returned to the Subaru dealer near their home in southeast Massachusetts. But there was a catch, one that made the couple mad: Marc's sedan wouldn't have access to the company's telematics system and the app that went along with it. No remote engine start in the freezing New England winter; no emergency assistance; no automated messages when the tire pressure was low or the oil needed changing. The worst part was that if the Ferrellis lived just a mile away, in Rhode Island, they would have the features. They bought the car. But thinking back, Marc says, if he had known about the issue before stepping into the dealership he "probably would have gone with Toyota."
Subaru disabled the telematics system and associated features on new cars registered in Massachusetts last year as part of a spat over a right-to-repair ballot measure approved, overwhelmingly, by the state's voters in 2020. The measure, which has been held up in the courts, required automakers to give car owners and independent mechanics more access to data about the car's internal systems.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2ih)
Sounds a lot like the spoiled child who says "You play the game my way with my rules, or I'm not playing at all."
Not being a lawyer, I don't know if the family would have a case or not, but on first glance one would think they do. They bought a car with certain features and the manufacturer disabled those features. How is this any different than the manufacturer somehow disabling the speedometer so you don't know how fast you're going, or the gas gauge so you don't know how much fuel you have left, or anything like that?
I would think it would hinge on whether the seller misrepresented those features as being present on the car or not. If the seller tells you those features are not on the car before you buy it, that's on you for agreeing to the transaction after having been duly informed. If you are told those features are there and take delivery, then the features aren't there, or they are there initially and later disabled, I think it would come down to what was in all of the legal verbiage that is on the sign-here-and-here-and-here paperwork that gets thrown at you during a car buying transaction. If there's a line saying "Subaru reserves the right to disable any feature of your car for any reason or no reason at any time with or without notice" and you sign that, you're probably SOL legally.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 08, 2022, 05:08:50 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 08, 2022, 04:04:29 PM
Quote from: ZLoth on February 08, 2022, 12:30:47 PM
Sigh.... now this! From Wired:
A Fight Over the Right to Repair Cars Turns Ugly
In the wake of a voter-approved law, Subaru and Kia dealers in Massachusetts have disabled systems that allow remote starts and send maintenance alerts.QuoteChie Ferrelli loved her Subaru SUV, which she bought in 2020 because it made her feel safe. So when it was time for her husband, Marc, to purchase his own new car last summer, they returned to the Subaru dealer near their home in southeast Massachusetts. But there was a catch, one that made the couple mad: Marc's sedan wouldn't have access to the company's telematics system and the app that went along with it. No remote engine start in the freezing New England winter; no emergency assistance; no automated messages when the tire pressure was low or the oil needed changing. The worst part was that if the Ferrellis lived just a mile away, in Rhode Island, they would have the features. They bought the car. But thinking back, Marc says, if he had known about the issue before stepping into the dealership he "probably would have gone with Toyota."
Subaru disabled the telematics system and associated features on new cars registered in Massachusetts last year as part of a spat over a right-to-repair ballot measure approved, overwhelmingly, by the state's voters in 2020. The measure, which has been held up in the courts, required automakers to give car owners and independent mechanics more access to data about the car's internal systems.
FULL ARTICLE HERE (https://markholtz.info/2ih)
Sounds a lot like the spoiled child who says "You play the game my way with my rules, or I'm not playing at all."
Not being a lawyer, I don't know if the family would have a case or not, but on first glance one would think they do. They bought a car with certain features and the manufacturer disabled those features. How is this any different than the manufacturer somehow disabling the speedometer so you don't know how fast you're going, or the gas gauge so you don't know how much fuel you have left, or anything like that?
I would think it would hinge on whether the seller misrepresented those features as being present on the car or not. If the seller tells you those features are not on the car before you buy it, that's on you for agreeing to the transaction after having been duly informed. If you are told those features are there and take delivery, then the features aren't there, or they are there initially and later disabled, I think it would come down to what was in all of the legal verbiage that is on the sign-here-and-here-and-here paperwork that gets thrown at you during a car buying transaction. If there's a line saying "Subaru reserves the right to disable any feature of your car for any reason or no reason at any time with or without notice" and you sign that, you're probably SOL legally.
From Subaru perspective, they just comply with MA law by not selling something illegal under that law.
Law requires universal open platform for certain features. Such platform doesn't exist, so Subaru believe they are not allowed to sell proprietary solution.
They do not include free trial with the car, and they do not sell extra paid option. Nothing is disabled, things are just not sold and so not enabled.
↑ That's the most corporate-apologist hogwash I think I've ever heard.
You know how you make an open platform? Upload all of the .c and .h files to a public server. Agree not to file suit against anyone who uses the code for anything. Done.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 08, 2022, 05:27:26 PM
↑ That's the most corporate-apologist hogwash I think I've ever heard.
You know how you make an open platform? Upload all of the .c and .h files to a public server. Agree not to file suit against anyone who uses the code for anything. Done.
While I don't like Subaru's approach, your solution is certainly an even bigger can of worms to deal with. Not to mention "universal" platform would be had to create that way.
Anyway, here is some writeup on the issue which may be informative:
https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2021/10/25/mass-ag-subaru-disables-telematics-in-2022-vehicles-to-comply-with-states-disputed-right-to-repair-law/
Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2022, 06:19:07 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 08, 2022, 05:27:26 PM
↑ That's the most corporate-apologist hogwash I think I've ever heard.
You know how you make an open platform? Upload all of the .c and .h files to a public server. Agree not to file suit against anyone who uses the code for anything. Done.
While I don't like Subaru's approach, your solution is certainly an even bigger can of worms to deal with. Not to mention "universal" platform would be had to create that way.
Nonsense–it's exactly how the OpenDocument universal document standard (which I believe is or was at one point also adopted as a Massachusetts state government standard) was created. The base for the platform was the file formats Sun Microsystems developed for StarOffice. From that, they were then generalized not to be specific to a Sun product. And now the format is universal enough, you can even save to OpenDocument from Microsoft Office, which wasn't ever something you could do with the old SXD format that StarOffice used.
While starting from scratch will obviously result in a cleaner and more elegant design, historically it's been proven that it's much more likely to actually result in a usable standard if you take a working code base and generalize it. It just requires one vendor to do the right thing and take the first step of releasing their code so that it can be used as the base that is improved upon.
Honda has always been my pick in the Honda vs. Toyota debate.
I've definitely wanted to own a Tesla at some points but I don't like some of their business practices. One is listing prices on their website that have "tax rebates and gas savings included", but around $10k more than that value will be actually coming out of your pocket when you go to purchase the car. Also, I'm not a fan of when they sold lower-trim Model 3s that were actually just software-locked versions of the higher trims. It's stupid to sell a car with a seat warmer literally installed but disabled because I didn't give you enough money.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 08, 2022, 06:42:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2022, 06:19:07 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 08, 2022, 05:27:26 PM
↑ That's the most corporate-apologist hogwash I think I've ever heard.
You know how you make an open platform? Upload all of the .c and .h files to a public server. Agree not to file suit against anyone who uses the code for anything. Done.
While I don't like Subaru's approach, your solution is certainly an even bigger can of worms to deal with. Not to mention "universal" platform would be had to create that way.
Nonsense–it's exactly how the OpenDocument universal document standard (which I believe is or was at one point also adopted as a Massachusetts state government standard) was created. The base for the platform was the file formats Sun Microsystems developed for StarOffice. From that, they were then generalized not to be specific to a Sun product. And now the format is universal enough, you can even save to OpenDocument from Microsoft Office, which wasn't ever something you could do with the old SXD format that StarOffice used.
While starting from scratch will obviously result in a cleaner and more elegant design, historically it's been proven that it's much more likely to actually result in a usable standard if you take a working code base and generalize it. It just requires one vendor to do the right thing and take the first step of releasing their code so that it can be used as the base that is improved upon.
Which may work for the simple stuff. We're talking about high-risk things here. Unauthorized start of a car is a can of worms - from possible suffocation to cars idling out of gas with everything in between. So any bugs would incur huge liability for the company...
What could be done more or less realistically - a limited (sub)set of API can be made available to third parties. Still an issue of security, authorization protocol etc - but at least the core functionality wouldn't be exposed. Would that be enough to comply with MA law? I am not sure.
Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2022, 07:58:01 PMWhich may work for the simple stuff. We're talking about high-risk things here. Unauthorized start of a car is a can of worms - from possible suffocation to cars idling out of gas with everything in between. So any bugs would incur huge liability for the company...
It's not a question only of bugs, but also of zero-day vulnerabilities that can be developed into exploits. But the automakers have kept pushing on with remote access technologies nevertheless. Charlie Miller and Chris Valasek's Jeep Cherokee hack (which allowed them to take over the steering and brakes and thus, potentially, crash the vehicle) is now seven years old.
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 28, 2021, 05:04:07 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 28, 2021, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: bugo on December 28, 2021, 04:39:00 PM
Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.
They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.
Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.
I feel like Kia is the one that has taken advantage the most.
That didn't age well. Kia owners are now being told to park their cars outside due to risk of spontaneous combustion (https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/08/business/hyundai-kia-fire-recall/index.html). I may never have been excited my used 2015 Camry, but yes it's reliable. Not thrilled with Toyota's original plans that prompted this thread, but I'm glad they backtracked for now.
Quote from: skluth on February 09, 2022, 10:23:19 AM
Quote from: JayhawkCO on December 28, 2021, 05:04:07 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on December 28, 2021, 05:02:32 PM
Quote from: bugo on December 28, 2021, 04:39:00 PM
Another reason not to buy a Toyota. Most mediocre, milquetoast, anodyne cars in the world. The only thing they have going for them is the "reliable" stereotype, which is a moot point these days because virtually every modern car not built in Italy is reliable.
They and Honda have spent the past 20 years living off that reliability mantle without actually advancing like everyone else.
Companies like Mazda are going to start blowing them out of the water pretty soon.
I feel like Kia is the one that has taken advantage the most.
That didn't age well. Kia owners are now being told to park their cars outside due to risk of spontaneous combustion (https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/08/business/hyundai-kia-fire-recall/index.html). I may never have been excited my used 2015 Camry, but yes it's reliable. Not thrilled with Toyota's original plans that prompted this thread, but I'm glad they backtracked for now.
A bit of a problem, from my perspective, is a reliance on cell communication - which has a large infrastructural overhead, finite technology lifetime, and needs some sort of periodic payments from customers to keep things running.
It is not unique for cars or cell technology. I have some wifi "smart" devices at my place, mostly running via cloud. What happens if manufacturer goes under? decides to obsolete old platform? Sort of same thing... It takes just a glitch for internet connection (which some people get on a regular basis) for the problems to begin.
It may be a big vulnerability of many modern technologies, I would say. Remote start issues are a tip of an iceberg.
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2022, 10:37:46 AM
A bit of a problem, from my perspective, is a reliance on cell communication - which has a large infrastructural overhead, finite technology lifetime, and needs some sort of periodic payments from customers to keep things running.
It is not unique for cars or cell technology. I have some wifi "smart" devices at my place, mostly running via cloud. What happens if manufacturer goes under? decides to obsolete old platform? Sort of same thing... It takes just a glitch for internet connection (which some people get on a regular basis) for the problems to begin.
It may be a big vulnerability of many modern technologies, I would say. Remote start issues are a tip of an iceberg.
That is already a big problem. Honda has issued a recall for its high-tech vehicles whereby the cellular data service will degrade as the number of 3G towers dwindle. The solution is a software patch that will upgrade the cellular data service to 4G and disable the 3G functionality. If you can't get the software patch downloaded before sometime in early-March 2022, then afterwards it will require a technician to manually download the patch, along with the labor charges. That tells me two things: (1) the cellular modem was originally equipped for 4G but had that feature disabled due to the cost differential; and (2) that the cost of [uploading] that many data packets to the vehicles needs to be limited to short period of time so as to manage the impact on their data service rates.
Many of their customers already pay a monthly fee to Honda for this data service, so there is probably a stiff cost differential between what they are charging and what this recall is actually costing. It seems to me that Honda had already anticipated this issue and was planning this transition for some time.
Regarding whether or not something was "sold" with the car, it seems pretty obvious. Is "remote start" or whatever it may be called on the window sticker, along with other stuff like "power windows," "power door locks," "remote keyless entry," "AM/FM stereo radio with Bluetooth connectivity and USB ports?" If so, it was sold with the car. If there are wiggle words like "remote start service available as an optional service," then one could argue that it wasn't sold with the car, but the car is capable of it. Much like if the stereo comes with SiriusXM capability, but the subscription is required separately. Or GM's OnStar service.
Quote from: Dirt Roads on February 09, 2022, 10:55:44 AM
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2022, 10:37:46 AM
A bit of a problem, from my perspective, is a reliance on cell communication - which has a large infrastructural overhead, finite technology lifetime, and needs some sort of periodic payments from customers to keep things running.
It is not unique for cars or cell technology. I have some wifi "smart" devices at my place, mostly running via cloud. What happens if manufacturer goes under? decides to obsolete old platform? Sort of same thing... It takes just a glitch for internet connection (which some people get on a regular basis) for the problems to begin.
It may be a big vulnerability of many modern technologies, I would say. Remote start issues are a tip of an iceberg.
That is already a big problem. Honda has issued a recall for its high-tech vehicles whereby the cellular data service will degrade as the number of 3G towers dwindle. The solution is a software patch that will upgrade the cellular data service to 4G and disable the 3G functionality. If you can't get the software patch downloaded before sometime in early-March 2022, then afterwards it will require a technician to manually download the patch, along with the labor charges. That tells me two things: (1) the cellular modem was originally equipped for 4G but had that feature disabled due to the cost differential; and (2) that the cost of [uploading] that many data packets to the vehicles needs to be limited to short period of time so as to manage the impact on their data service rates.
Many of their customers already pay a monthly fee to Honda for this data service, so there is probably a stiff cost differential between what they are charging and what this recall is actually costing. It seems to me that Honda had already anticipated this issue and was planning this transition for some time.
At least, core functionality of the car is not affected by the datacom. Not yet.
I had remote start on some of my cars - it was nice to have, but not more than that.
I don't know how voice recognition works in my current vehicle - is it offline or online. So far, I don't quite care as that is a minor function affecting phone and audio only. It is cool to say "call wife" but I can survive without that as well. But there are already examples where core functions relied on computation too much for the driver to survive encountering a software bug.
Would my next car use datacom more? Would I be able to turn on wipers and headlights without online voice service? That may be a real problem (hopefully not, as people speaking any language - or who cannot talk at all - still may get a license). But that is what I am concerned about.
Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2022, 07:58:01 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 08, 2022, 06:42:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2022, 06:19:07 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 08, 2022, 05:27:26 PM
↑ That's the most corporate-apologist hogwash I think I've ever heard.
You know how you make an open platform? Upload all of the .c and .h files to a public server. Agree not to file suit against anyone who uses the code for anything. Done.
While I don't like Subaru's approach, your solution is certainly an even bigger can of worms to deal with. Not to mention "universal" platform would be had to create that way.
Nonsense–it's exactly how the OpenDocument universal document standard (which I believe is or was at one point also adopted as a Massachusetts state government standard) was created. The base for the platform was the file formats Sun Microsystems developed for StarOffice. From that, they were then generalized not to be specific to a Sun product. And now the format is universal enough, you can even save to OpenDocument from Microsoft Office, which wasn't ever something you could do with the old SXD format that StarOffice used.
While starting from scratch will obviously result in a cleaner and more elegant design, historically it's been proven that it's much more likely to actually result in a usable standard if you take a working code base and generalize it. It just requires one vendor to do the right thing and take the first step of releasing their code so that it can be used as the base that is improved upon.
Which may work for the simple stuff. We're talking about high-risk things here. Unauthorized start of a car is a can of worms - from possible suffocation to cars idling out of gas with everything in between. So any bugs would incur huge liability for the company...
What could be done more or less realistically - a limited (sub)set of API can be made available to third parties. Still an issue of security, authorization protocol etc - but at least the core functionality wouldn't be exposed. Would that be enough to comply with MA law? I am not sure.
Document standards are neither simple nor low-risk–billion-dollar companies run on a platform of documents and spreadsheets. If that data isn't accessible, the company can't do business. There may be less physically moving parts than in a car, but the basic requirements of "we need to support X, Y, Z interaction because customer A has requirement R, customer B has requirement S, and customer C has requirement T that conflicts with requirement R" is all really about the same and equally difficult to manage.
The whole point of an open standard is so that the spec can be examined for bugs
by people who didn't write it. So if, say, Subaru were to open up their platform as the base of an open standard, a developer for Ford would be able to say "Hey, if an attacker can cause a buffer overrun by playing a song with a title over 32,767 characters long, it will allow someone to take control of the car. We should make the standard here to be more like what Ford uses, which is to require that..."
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 09, 2022, 02:42:59 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2022, 07:58:01 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 08, 2022, 06:42:19 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 08, 2022, 06:19:07 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 08, 2022, 05:27:26 PM
↑ That's the most corporate-apologist hogwash I think I've ever heard.
You know how you make an open platform? Upload all of the .c and .h files to a public server. Agree not to file suit against anyone who uses the code for anything. Done.
While I don't like Subaru's approach, your solution is certainly an even bigger can of worms to deal with. Not to mention "universal" platform would be had to create that way.
Nonsense–it's exactly how the OpenDocument universal document standard (which I believe is or was at one point also adopted as a Massachusetts state government standard) was created. The base for the platform was the file formats Sun Microsystems developed for StarOffice. From that, they were then generalized not to be specific to a Sun product. And now the format is universal enough, you can even save to OpenDocument from Microsoft Office, which wasn't ever something you could do with the old SXD format that StarOffice used.
While starting from scratch will obviously result in a cleaner and more elegant design, historically it's been proven that it's much more likely to actually result in a usable standard if you take a working code base and generalize it. It just requires one vendor to do the right thing and take the first step of releasing their code so that it can be used as the base that is improved upon.
Which may work for the simple stuff. We're talking about high-risk things here. Unauthorized start of a car is a can of worms - from possible suffocation to cars idling out of gas with everything in between. So any bugs would incur huge liability for the company...
What could be done more or less realistically - a limited (sub)set of API can be made available to third parties. Still an issue of security, authorization protocol etc - but at least the core functionality wouldn't be exposed. Would that be enough to comply with MA law? I am not sure.
Document standards are neither simple nor low-risk–billion-dollar companies run on a platform of documents and spreadsheets. If that data isn't accessible, the company can't do business. There may be less physically moving parts than in a car, but the basic requirements of "we need to support X, Y, Z interaction because customer A has requirement R, customer B has requirement S, and customer C has requirement T that conflicts with requirement R" is all really about the same and equally difficult to manage.
The whole point of an open standard is so that the spec can be examined for bugs by people who didn't write it. So if, say, Subaru were to open up their platform as the base of an open standard, a developer for Ford would be able to say "Hey, if an attacker can cause a buffer overrun by playing a song with a title over 32,767 characters long, it will allow someone to take control of the car. We should make the standard here to be more like what Ford uses, which is to require that..."
And the price of everything is determined solemnly by the buyer, right?
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2022, 02:53:17 PM
And the price of everything is determined solemnly by the buyer, right?
Wrong thread? The economics debate is in a different thread (check who made the last 10 posts and who's absent), and I really don't want it to spill into this one.
Quote from: 1 on February 09, 2022, 02:59:28 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2022, 02:53:17 PM
And the price of everything is determined solemnly by the buyer, right?
Wrong thread? The economics debate is in a different thread (check who made the last 10 posts and who's absent), and I really don't want it to spill into this one.
I actually thought it was clever commentary on the point being made.
I don't give a damn about prices.
Quote from: 1 on February 09, 2022, 02:59:28 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2022, 02:53:17 PM
And the price of everything is determined solemnly by the buyer, right?
Wrong thread? The economics debate is in a different thread (check who made the last 10 posts and who's absent), and I really don't want it to spill into this one.
it is the same level of expectation, though.
I can see many reasons why a large corporation would be unwilling to open significant chunks of code - already deployed code! - to a random audience. Liability is just too high - in terms of car malfunction, data leaks, and what not.
If the code is already deployed, all of those potential exploits are there in the car already, waiting to be...well...exploited. Keeping the source code secret, in-house only, burn after reading is just a method of security through obscurity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity). If the code is opened up, experienced security experts can fix the problems before they get exploited. If the code is kept closed, the good guys can't look through it for things needing to be fixed, but the bad guys aren't going to stop looking for exploits.
It is rather akin to fixing a pothole by putting a tarp over it, under the idea that if people can't see the hole they won't try to hit it.
Do note that a good chunk of the software stack that powers things like banks and governments runs on an open source model... This is a solved problem. You can download the code to the MySQL database server that runs damn near every database application in the world and read through it looking for security holes that would allow you access to pretty much every bit of critical data on the planet. You're unlikely to find any, though, since there are developers with far more experience than any two-bit attacker who have done the same thing and fixed them before they can cause a problem.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 09, 2022, 03:48:36 PM
If the code is already deployed, all of those potential exploits are there in the car already, waiting to be...well...exploited. Keeping the source code secret, in-house only, burn after reading is just a method of security through obscurity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_through_obscurity). If the code is opened up, experienced security experts can fix the problems before they get exploited. If the code is kept closed, the good guys can't look through it for things needing to be fixed, but the bad guys aren't going to stop looking for exploits.
It is rather akin to fixing a pothole by putting a tarp over it, under the idea that if people can't see the hole they won't try to hit it.
Do note that a good chunk of the software stack that powers things like banks and governments runs on an open source model... This is a solved problem. You can download the code to the MySQL database server that runs damn near every database application in the world and read through it looking for security holes that would allow you access to pretty much every bit of critical data on the planet. You're unlikely to find any, though, since there are developers with far more experience than any two-bit attacker who have done the same thing and fixed them before they can cause a problem.
This is a solved problem... to some extent. I saw source code of Win2000 (not that I understood much) - it was leaked at some point. Latest versions are still closed, as far as I understand. I doubt forcing MS into a full open source would succeed.
My general impression is that company has to grow up to that stage, not to be forced into compliance within few months. And I certainly see some portions of the code still being proprietary - as far as I understand, injection and ignition control, and associated engine diagnostics, is a highly technological area where things are protected for solid IP reasons.
Although releasing some limited API shouldn't expose too much stuff. But we don't know specifics behind, there may be other things to consider.
And yet full open-source operating systems are generally preferred for critical server infrastructure. The number of servers that run Windows/IIS/MS SQL Server/ASP is tiny compared to the number that run the LAMP stack, for exactly the same reasons discussed in this thread–it generally being a bad idea to give Microsoft control of critical server infrastructure (as they will make decisions based on their own profitability, rather than the needs of the customer), and the security benefits of having many eyes reviewing the code.
In this case, there's a clear benefit to having the tie-wearing monstrosities' IP interests shoved forcefully down the list of priorities–if the way the injection and ignition procedures work is general knowledge, it makes repairing those systems easier when they fail.
Which points to what the real motive here is, right? It's not about security at all. If that was the real motive, they would open-source the code yesterday. The real motive here is to put third-party mechanics out of business and require all repairs to be made by a dealer...isn't it?
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 09, 2022, 05:01:04 PM
And yet full open-source operating systems are generally preferred for critical server infrastructure. The number of servers that run Windows/IIS/MS SQL Server/ASP is tiny compared to the number that run the LAMP stack, for exactly the same reasons discussed in this thread–it generally being a bad idea to give Microsoft control of critical server infrastructure (as they will make decisions based on their own profitability, rather than the needs of the customer), and the security benefits of having many eyes reviewing the code.
In this case, there's a clear benefit to having the tie-wearing monstrosities' IP interests shoved forcefully down the list of priorities–if the way the injection and ignition procedures work is general knowledge, it makes repairing those systems easier when they fail.
Which points to what the real motive here is, right? It's not about security at all. If that was the real motive, they would open-source the code yesterday. The real motive here is to put third-party mechanics out of business and require all repairs to be made by a dealer...isn't it?
Well, I can see zillion reasons for different parts of the system to have different level of openness.
Mechanics may be one part of the situation - but a lot of service is done by diagonal replacement of components. Wheels, brakes, AC, generator, glass, body, pumps - all done by replacement of parts with pretty rudimentary diagnostics.
Engine operation is proprietary because there is a lot of knowledge behind it. Optimal temperature distributions, cooling rates, algorithms to control those, wear-out profiles - manufacturer did spend a lot of effort on that, and don't want rivals to grab that knowledge. If you will, your server may run open OS - but CUDA driver would still be proprietary.
Then, it is well known that many things are sold at - or below - cost with assumptions that post-sales service and support would be profitable. Inkjet printers are infamous for that.
Bottom line - I do repair things myself. I hate when there is not enough documentation to do that. More than once I actually came to a boiling point over manufacturer being explicitly anal (and proud about it) about things. But - I still don't believe in open-f&king-everything.
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2022, 05:17:55 PM
Then, it is well known that many things are sold at - or below - cost with assumptions that post-sales service and support would be profitable. Inkjet printers are infamous for that.
And here is the key point of difference between you and I–I don't necessarily agree that just because someone can make a profit off of something, that they should be allowed to do so. People will come up with business models that depend on violating the Geneva conventions if we let them. Business should serve the interests of the end consumer and society at large, not solely the shareholders or management. If a business cannot do both, it should be dissolved, by force if necessary.
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 09, 2022, 06:26:14 PM
Quote from: kalvado on February 09, 2022, 05:17:55 PM
Then, it is well known that many things are sold at - or below - cost with assumptions that post-sales service and support would be profitable. Inkjet printers are infamous for that.
And here is the key point of difference between you and I–I don't necessarily agree that just because someone can make a profit off of something, that they should be allowed to do so. People will come up with business models that depend on violating the Geneva conventions if we let them. Business should serve the interests of the end consumer and society at large, not solely the shareholders or management. If a business cannot do both, it should be dissolved, by force if necessary.
I'm afraid there is one thing you miss here.
Knowledge is easy to share, but pretty difficult to produce. And whoever produces that knowledge - be it car design, new drug, code, technology, movie - hopes to get some compensation for doing that, for time and money spent.
It causes most tensions when novel life-saving medical treatments are at stake. On one hand, company seemingly defies social responsibility by refusing to save lives; on the other hand - company wouldn't be doing that research if there was no compensation to be collected at the end of the day and that would be a net loss in terms of lives saved.
While this is quite a bit more extreme situation to consider, the spirit is the same - rights of end user vs rights of creator.
Things can be somewhat resolved if public funding is on the table, but that is another huge can of worms I don't want to open here.
Coming back to the topic - there should be a certain level of disclosure; and current situation certainly favors big companies vs end users. I don't know where the balance should be, but you certainly want to push the needle further than I do.
It's pretty obvious that revenue and profit are big drivers of stuff like this.
I can take my old truck out the road to an independent garage and get the oil changed for $30. Get it done at Valvoline Instant Oil Change, and it will likely cost $69.95. I hesitate to think what the dealership would charge.
It just makes sense that people would rather play an independent garage less to put on a set of brakes or a new muffler. A few years ago, the going rate for dealership labor was $48 per hour and I thought that was outrageous, and it's probably gone up to $60 or $72 by now. And lots of garages charge labor not by how much time is actually spent, but by how long a book tells them it should take.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 09, 2022, 07:22:10 PM
It's pretty obvious that revenue and profit are big drivers of stuff like this.
I can take my old truck out the road to an independent garage and get the oil changed for $30. Get it done at Valvoline Instant Oil Change, and it will likely cost $69.95. I hesitate to think what the dealership would charge.
It just makes sense that people would rather play an independent garage less to put on a set of brakes or a new muffler. A few years ago, the going rate for dealership labor was $48 per hour and I thought that was outrageous, and it's probably gone up to $60 or $72 by now. And lots of garages charge labor not by how much time is actually spent, but by how long a book tells them it should take.
Frankly speaking, $100 an hour would be about right if you try to do the math from owner's perspective. And I certainly think that someone who can do the job in 30 minutes shouldn't be paid less than someone who does same job over 2 hours.
And GM is now requiring a $1500 3-year On-Star service that was optional on Buick, GMAC and certain Cadillac models. https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/10/business/gm-onstar-mandatory/index.html
Quote from: Big John on August 11, 2022, 12:03:51 PMAnd GM is now requiring a $1500 3-year On-Star service that was optional on Buick, GMAC and certain Cadillac models. https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/10/business/gm-onstar-mandatory/index.html
Didn't GM discontinue Sedans in favor of SUVs and Trucks?
Quote from: ZLoth on August 11, 2022, 01:12:55 PM
Quote from: Big John on August 11, 2022, 12:03:51 PMAnd GM is now requiring a $1500 3-year On-Star service that was optional on Buick, GMAC and certain Cadillac models. https://edition.cnn.com/2022/08/10/business/gm-onstar-mandatory/index.html
Didn't GM discontinue Sedans in favor of SUVs and Trucks?
For the most part, yes, but Cadillac still has two sedans.