AARoads Forum

For me, I don't honestly care but I feel like the extruded ones are more durable but they are uglier compared to the increment ones. I've seen New Jersey use both (increment on the turnpike and parkway and extruded on other highways).

Extruded 

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8887445,-84.2545394,3a,75y,313.24h,95.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suNPa9QxHNqdhxkY-YdNL9Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8722852,-76.9900591,3a,75y,137.44h,94.47t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1stsvBnsb9J1lB7cxNBSZGqA!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DtsvBnsb9J1lB7cxNBSZGqA%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D354.3648%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2958518,-77.5052696,3a,50y,38.25h,96.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKoXwWQsltrYKbucfTYtuhQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

___________________________________

Increment

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.1164614,-80.1318772,3a,44.4y,218.97h,100.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWa7fl1-gOic2Cmrc1QA9dw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0670672,-80.3338106,3a,75y,46.16h,95.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7KBrhYTTtmKM-F5jp-yTKg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@30.1613766,-81.5096495,3a,75y,353.9h,104.51t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1soPw-BUXhQXiz25tg1if0Kw!2e0!5s20210201T000000!7i16384!8i8192

If one was actually better or worse, all the states would use the better one.

I have always felt like extruded was better, especially when they place finishing caps on the vertical edges.  GA, IL, and KY pretty consistently do this, among others.  I personally prefer extruded because that's what I grew up seeing in TN and KY, and I truly cannot stand how NC does their incremental signage because when they feel the need to add something to a sign they put up a little auxiliary sign above or below the main sign.

FL appears to use extruded for service logo signage along the mainlines, and flat panels for everything else.  Also, VA appears to be transitioning to extruded after using only flat panel signage for years, but I think there are still instances of new flat panel signage going up. So I'm thinking that with them going from using one type to using both types, they are either experimenting or they feel that one may be better.

To me the finishing caps used in those states look like a 2nd border outside the sign's actual border.

This is a nice truckload of highway signs. The WEIGH STATION sign appears to be extruded in this street view in North Carolina.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8070554,-80.8774086,3a,26.9y,347.69h,90.94t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUzOHHcjg2QYv06LO3vPhPg!2e0!5s20211101T000000!7i16384!8i8192

If incremental/flat signs are supposed to be the superior type, then why aren't more states using it? (AFAIK, only four of them actively use the flat kind on their highways: FL, NY, NC and VA, plus NJ for its toll roads; also, this is also the type of sign that is seen in the MUTCD.)

That being said, I strongly prefer extruded signs because they are the more familiar type, and also because they look more complete than the flat ones do.

Quote from: Henry on December 28, 2021, 10:16:50 AM
If incremental/flat signs are supposed to be the superior type, then why aren't more states using it? (AFAIK, only four of them actively use the flat kind on their highways: FL, NY, NC and VA, plus NJ for its toll roads; also, this is also the type of sign that is seen in the MUTCD.)

That being said, I strongly prefer extruded signs because they are the more familiar type, and also because they look more complete than the flat ones do.

I think Montana uses them as well.

I couldn't care less in general except that I think the real rounded corners look better.

Quote from: Henry on December 28, 2021, 10:16:50 AM
If incremental/flat signs are supposed to be the superior type, then why aren't more states using it? (AFAIK, only four of them actively use the flat kind on their highways: FL, NY, NC and VA, plus NJ for its toll roads; also, this is also the type of sign that is seen in the MUTCD.)

That being said, I strongly prefer extruded signs because they are the more familiar type, and also because they look more complete than the flat ones do.

You forgot Washington, Alabama, Utah, Wyoming, etc

Quote from: 1995hoo on December 28, 2021, 12:07:30 PM
I couldn't care less in general except that I think the real rounded corners look better.

Which is related but not completely the same thing. Rounded corners are not possible with extruded panel signs, but even with incremental panel signs some/most states don't bother to round the corners.

I have no strong feelings one way or the other.

Added a "don't care" option to vote.

I prefer extruded because they are more durable and are easier to expand. This is especially crucial for logo signs (which I think is the reason why Florida uses extruded panels for them).

BTW Puerto Rico also uses flat incremental signage

At least for overhead signs, Nevada appears to use increment/flat panel signs, but a more durable frame mounting method. All the sign panels are mounted to a rigid frame, and that frame is attached to the sign structure. It also helps that overhead signs are almost always mounted so the lower edge of the sign is not mounted any lower than the lower chord of the sign structure.

My choice was "Don't care"--my main concern is that the sign should be designed with satisfactory space padding around the legend.  Besides extruded aluminum and increment panel/extrusheet, laminated panels are still used (in California and Pennsylvania), as are formed panels (California and Nevada, if I understand Roadfro correctly).  They all have their pros and cons in terms of cost, durability, the difficulty or otherwise of message revision, and so on.

I also chose "Don't care". I think both look nice, and as a roadgeek, I can appreciate the variety. I definitely care more about whether the sign is appropriately designed, over the type of panel. And I have to say, Florida and North Carolina are decent in this area.

Note to the @Mods/Admins, how do you add "Change your vote" option to this? I was hoping for other members to change their vote since most of them don't care whether a sign is extruded or increment. Thanks.

Quote from: roadfro on December 29, 2021, 01:58:36 AM
At least for overhead signs, Nevada appears to use increment/flat panel signs, but a more durable frame mounting method. All the sign panels are mounted to a rigid frame, and that frame is attached to the sign structure.

If I'm understanding right, this is the case in Utah as well. The few extruded panel signs in the state are not mounted by UDOT (NPS comes to mind).

Quote from: tolbs17 on January 04, 2022, 09:15:13 PM
Note to the @Mods/Admins, how do you add "Change your vote" option to this? I was hoping for other members to change their vote since most of them don't care whether a sign is extruded or increment. Thanks.

Click "Edit Poll":
(https://i.imgur.com/yhBFNby.png)

Then "Allow users to change vote":
(https://i.imgur.com/cw0N9LN.png)

Don't see that.

(https://i.imgur.com/TKcd5ri.png)

Quote from: Henry on December 28, 2021, 10:16:50 AM
If incremental/flat signs are supposed to be the superior type, then why aren't more states using it? (AFAIK, only four of them actively use the flat kind on their highways: FL, NY, NC and VA, plus NJ for its toll roads; also, this is also the type of sign that is seen in the MUTCD.)

That being said, I strongly prefer extruded signs because they are the more familiar type, and also because they look more complete than the flat ones do.

I would leave Virginia out. They still actively post new extruded signs:

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.8038682,-76.1972984,3a,39y,37.18h,98.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slGTLngG2t-8BAtXtBLsRGw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

However, if you scroll back to the previous date, you can see they used to be increment.

This sign is square and is incremental. It was installed in 2002 or 2003. This is a unique sign i have to say!

US-23
https://maps.app.goo.gl/4tB1S8aU1LBCLgMZ9

Other sign

US-23
https://maps.app.goo.gl/QhfyGasMLkEPQB4g9

Look at the backs of them–it would appear they put another layer of panels over an older rounded-corner incremental sign.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8504338,-82.5275154,3a,19.8y,330.26h,112t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEqPaPxQv1f85C0F-4ajeXA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 06, 2022, 01:35:24 PM
Look at the backs of them–it would appear they put another layer of panels over an older rounded-corner incremental sign.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8504338,-82.5275154,3a,19.8y,330.26h,112t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEqPaPxQv1f85C0F-4ajeXA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I guess that's for extra durability I guess. But many of the square signs here are like that.

Quote from: Henry on December 28, 2021, 10:16:50 AMIf incremental/flat signs are supposed to be the superior type, then why aren't more states using it? (AFAIK, only four of them actively use the flat kind on their highways: FL, NY, NC and VA, plus NJ for its toll roads; also, this is also the type of sign that is seen in the MUTCD.)

I think recent editions of the MUTCD have used illustrations with rounded sign corners primarily for reasons of good draftsmanship.

If a sign illustration has rounded corners, then the black outer outline--which is necessary to allow the white border to be seen against the white of the page--is against white on both sides throughout.  If corners are left unrounded and the background color is extended out beyond the border, then the outer outline needs to be changed to the background color (sacrificing uniform contrast) or black has to appear against dark background color on one side at the corners, which is a rule-of-tincture violation.

This consideration doesn't come into play for the actual physical signs since they are seen in the field without bounding outlines.  Agencies are simply told that untrimmed corners are acceptable in general, which frees them to adopt the substrate designs that make the most sense for them in terms of other criteria such as cost, durability, ease of mounting in the field, etc.

Quote from: tolbs17 on February 06, 2022, 01:38:58 PM

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 06, 2022, 01:35:24 PM
Look at the backs of them–it would appear they put another layer of panels over an older rounded-corner incremental sign.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8504338,-82.5275154,3a,19.8y,330.26h,112t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEqPaPxQv1f85C0F-4ajeXA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I guess that's for extra durability I guess. But many of the square signs here are like that.

I would imagine it has less to do with durability and more to do with not wanting to pay to remove the old sign and dispose of it before installing the new one. Sort of like how people stick license plate stickers over top of the old one rather than peeling the old one off. Doesn't make it more durable (in fact, it's the opposite when it comes to stickers), just takes less time.

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 06, 2022, 01:35:24 PM
Look at the backs of them–it would appear they put another layer of panels over an older rounded-corner incremental sign.
https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8504338,-82.5275154,3a,19.8y,330.26h,112t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEqPaPxQv1f85C0F-4ajeXA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

They did. North Carolina originally signed US 23 to exit here and use the old alignment. The US 23A designation was given to the old road later.

What's the difference between the two types? I can't tell from the examples in the op.

Quote from: SkyPesos on February 06, 2022, 07:56:08 PM
What's the difference between the two types? I can't tell from the examples in the op.

Extruded are all square. Incremental are rounded.

Quote from: PHLBOS on August 28, 2013, 03:14:28 PM

Quote from: wriddle082 on February 17, 2011, 04:50:27 PMHere is a rough list of what the states I've been to generally use:

Alabama:  incremental (corners not rounded)
Arkansas:  newer signs are extruded, older signs are incremental (corners not rounded)
Colorado:  extruded
Florida:  incremental (corners rounded), but IIRC the blue service signs are extruded
Georgia:  extruded, but I've seen newer exit gore signs that were flat panel with rounded corners
Illinois:  extruded
Indiana:  extruded
Kentucky:  extruded
Louisiana:  extruded
Maryland:  extruded
Massachusetts:  extruded
Michigan:  extruded
Mississippi:  mostly extruded, but I've also seen this strange combination of extruded and flat panel on older signs
Missouri:  extruded, but I believe they've used flat panels (rounded corners) on their exit gore signs in the past
Nevada:  extruded
New Hampshire:  extruded
New Jersey:  extruded, but NJ Turnpike used to use incremental
New York:  incremental (corners rounded)
North Carolina:  incremental (corners rounded)
Ohio:  extruded
Pennsylvania:  extruded
South Carolina:  extruded
Tennessee:  extruded
Texas:  extruded
Virginia:  incremental (corners rounded)
West Virginia:  extruded

Feel free to add to this list, correct it, or knock me upside the head for spoiling this thread  :pan:

To add (based on my observations):
Connecticut: extruded (at least for current BGS')
Delaware: extruded (although DelDOT used to use incremental w/rounded corners)
Maine: extruded
Oregon: extruded
Rhode Island: extruded

Found this from another thread and I thought I would put it here. Virginia does not actively use incremental signs anymore.  New installations have been extruded for the most part.

Quote from: SkyPesos on February 06, 2022, 07:56:08 PM
What's the difference between the two types? I can't tell from the examples in the op.

An extruded aluminum sign is made of multiple long, horizontal panels with stiffening flanges behind them. Seen edge-on, the panels are often in the shape of a squared-off C or E that is extruded (extended) in the z-axis away from the viewer. (Imagine you're looking down a paper towel tube–this would be an example of an extruded O shape.) Several of these panels are then stacked upon each other vertically. These signs are most easily identified by the presence of the stiffening flanges behind the sign face and evenly-spaced seams running the width of the sign.

Because the sign geometry extends in all three dimensions, it is not practical to produce extruded panels with rounded shapes, as this would entail cutting into the stiffening flanges. As a result, extruded signs will normally have a rounded border but the actual panel will be squared-off, with the area beyond the border usually being the same color as the background color of the sign (e.g. green).

Here is an example of an extruded sign from Kansas:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/K68%40i35.jpg/800px-K68%40i35.jpg)

Incremental panels are made of simple aluminum panels, the same kind you might find used to make a speed limit sign, but made as large as practical. Several of these are placed edge-to-edge to form a sign panel. These signs require some sort of stiffening latticework behind them to keep them all attached and straight. However, because on incremental signs, stiffening is provided as part of the mounting hardware rather than as an integral part of the sign, the corners can be rounded off the same as any conventional-road sign.

(Contrary to Tolbert's assertion, this is not always the case; there is no reason that an incremental sign must always be rounded. However, if a freeway guide sign bears rounded corners, it does mean it must be an incremental-panel sign.)

Quote from: Scott5114 on February 06, 2022, 09:58:27 PM

Quote from: SkyPesos on February 06, 2022, 07:56:08 PM
What's the difference between the two types? I can't tell from the examples in the op.

An extruded aluminum sign is made of multiple long, horizontal panels with stiffening flanges behind them. Seen edge-on, the panels are often in the shape of a squared-off C or E that is extruded (extended) in the z-axis away from the viewer. (Imagine you're looking down a paper towel tube–this would be an example of an extruded O shape.) Several of these panels are then stacked upon each other vertically. These signs are most easily identified by the presence of the stiffening flanges behind the sign face and evenly-spaced seams running the width of the sign.

Because the sign geometry extends in all three dimensions, it is not practical to produce extruded panels with rounded shapes, as this would entail cutting into the stiffening flanges. As a result, extruded signs will normally have a rounded border but the actual panel will be squared-off, with the area beyond the border usually being the same color as the background color of the sign (e.g. green).

Here is an example of an extruded sign from Kansas:
[img snipped]

Incremental panels are made of simple aluminum panels, the same kind you might find used to make a speed limit sign, but made as large as practical. Several of these are placed edge-to-edge to form a sign panel. These signs require some sort of stiffening latticework behind them to keep them all attached and straight. However, because on incremental signs, stiffening is provided as part of the mounting hardware rather than as an integral part of the sign, the corners can be rounded off the same as any conventional-road sign.

(Contrary to Tolbert's assertion, this is not always the case; there is no reason that an incremental sign must always be rounded. However, if a freeway guide sign bears rounded corners, it does mean it must be an incremental-panel sign.)

Thanks, I see a difference now. Just did some searching on GSV and noticed a bunch of white dots on New York's BGS (guessing it's for mounting), which I think it means that it's an incremental BGS. Meanwhile, Ohio and neighboring states all have horizontal stripes on their signs, which is extruded from your definition.

As for which I prefer, probably extruded, as I'm more used to it. Though in reality, I don't think it matters.

I think the better test is to look at the back of the signs.

Extruded: GA (https://goo.gl/maps/RBb8KTEi8saFonJu9), TN (https://goo.gl/maps/kqaB99JEq2LasHCL6), OH (edit: apparently maybe not) (https://goo.gl/maps/YYfXH39vKARbxEJc9)

Increment: NY (https://goo.gl/maps/QEW5cn7SAiid6qP68), NC (https://goo.gl/maps/ibLNs4eFi8YXHdub8), UT (https://goo.gl/maps/QW1Vvb6ZjMsdZRFp6)

Notice how the Utah sign uses the increment panel method without rounded corners. This is pretty common in several states - in addition to Utah I know CO, NV, and I think at least a couple others do it that way.

Quote from: SkyPesos on February 06, 2022, 10:11:26 PMThanks, I see a difference now. Just did some searching on GSV and noticed a bunch of white dots on New York's BGS (guessing it's for mounting), which I think it means that it's an incremental BGS. Meanwhile, Ohio and neighboring states all have horizontal stripes on their signs, which is extruded from your definition.

Yes and no--Ohio DOT uses both.  There are separate pay items for extruded panel and what the agency calls "extrusheet," which is a type of increment panel with adjacent sheets joined to each other horizontally rather than vertically.  We have a fairly old thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=8977.msg208751#msg208751) with photos of a damaged extrusheet sign that shows how it is put together.

Agencies such as Kansas DOT that now use extruded panel almost exclusively have in the past used increment panel.  The stiffening used on the back can make it difficult to tell the difference between the two, though in this case (and for Kansas signs in general) it is easy to tell from the front.

These links go to StreetView imagery showing front and back of the exit direction sign for Exit 13 on I-235 northbound in Wichita.  The first two show the current sign, which is extruded with direct-applied copy and was installed shortly after 2013.  The latter two show the previous sign, which was increment panel with raised demountable copy and was installed around 1992.

Front, January 2022 (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7484936,-97.3746011,3a,48.5y,358.72h,115.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMPnc3vJYfcb-6lHRxFjBXA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Back, January 2022 (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7487248,-97.374596,3a,15y,179.43h,106.63t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sB3MQzYtkRnfZQVvj3-J1kQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Front, May 2012 (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7485398,-97.3746045,3a,75y,358.39h,118.08t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sQKqExDewwa2Ao4Nk3orscA!2e0!5s20120601T000000!7i13312!8i6656)

Back, July 2012 (https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7487245,-97.3746501,3a,15y,159.49h,106.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRliznN7Toc4uwFpxLdRFAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

As you can see, it's hard to tell just by looking at the back.  Virginia, North Carolina, New York, Minnesota, etc. are easier because they use bracing and framing systems that are visually easy to distinguish from extrusion flanges.

I also think it's important to realize that in terms of sign substrate types, it is not a binary choice between extruded and increment panel.  Wyoming DOT, for example, still uses plywood (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6778291,-107.9742946,3a,52.4y,19.65h,94.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRpwmC2rO0qu-QYPQt8LfkQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), though I think TxDOT (another big plywood user, especially in the Panhandle) may have phased it out.  Caltrans is a big user of laminated panel (https://www.safewaysign.com/products/laminated-panels), which is basically a honeycomb of cells of rolled-up paper sandwiched between two sheets of thin aluminum.

Quote from: tolbs17 on February 06, 2022, 09:06:15 PM

Quote from: PHLBOS on August 28, 2013, 03:14:28 PM

Quote from: wriddle082 on February 17, 2011, 04:50:27 PMHere is a rough list of what the states I've been to generally use:
(...)
Nevada:  extruded
(...)
Feel free to add to this list, correct it, or knock me upside the head for spoiling this thread  :pan:

To add (based on my observations):
(...)

Found this from another thread and I thought I would put it here. Virginia does not actively use incremental signs anymore.  New installations have been extruded for the most part.

Not sure what this person saw, but I have never seen an extruded sign in Nevada. NDOT uses increment panels; when overhead, these are attached to a rigid frame.

Quote from: roadfro on February 08, 2022, 11:00:57 AM

Quote from: tolbs17 on February 06, 2022, 09:06:15 PM

Quote from: PHLBOS on August 28, 2013, 03:14:28 PM

Quote from: wriddle082 on February 17, 2011, 04:50:27 PMHere is a rough list of what the states I've been to generally use:
(...)
Nevada:  extruded
(...)
Feel free to add to this list, correct it, or knock me upside the head for spoiling this thread  :pan:

To add (based on my observations):
(...)

Found this from another thread and I thought I would put it here. Virginia does not actively use incremental signs anymore.  New installations have been extruded for the most part.

Not sure what this person saw, but I have never seen an extruded sign in Nevada. NDOT uses increment panels; when overhead, these are attached to a rigid frame.

Same. Also never seen an extruded sign on the NJ turnpike or any other toll roads there.

I've always preferred incremental, flat-panel signs. Partly because that's what my state uses and I'm used to them. Also because they look better with their usually rounded corners.

With extruded signs you can often see those horizontal lines through the sheeting which I think looks crude compared to flat-panel signs.

Quote from: SignBridge on February 14, 2022, 08:16:22 PM
I've always preferred incremental, flat-panel signs. Partly because that's what my state uses and I'm used to them. Also because they look better with their usually rounded corners.

With extruded signs you can often see those horizontal lines through the sheeting which I think looks crude compared to flat-panel signs.

True but most states use extruded. Incremental is nicer but I feel like extruded is more favored by most states.

And with that weigh station sign being extruded, don't tell me that NCDOT is moving to the extruded panel signs. I'd hate for that to happen. I also don't know where in Statesville it's gonna go.

I feel like this could be a construction company that lives in a state where they use extruded signs all over there.

Weigh station signs here have been all incremental so this is definitely rare of why they are doing this. Unless we are trying to follow Virginia... but who knows.

Another image: https://goo.gl/maps/hWRmKAjVFZXGP6R58

Gonna try to do all 50 states that have either extruded or incremental panel signs:

12 states use incremental panel signs with only 3 of them round the corners, while 38 use extruded.


Alabama: Incremental (corners not rounded)
Alaska: Incremental
Arizona: Extruded
Arkansas: Extruded
California: Incremental (corners not rounded)
Colorado: Incremental (corners not rounded)
Connecticut: Extruded
District of Columbia: Extruded
Delaware: Extruded
Florida: Incremental
Georgia: Extruded
Hawaii: Extruded
Idaho: Extruded
Illinois: Extruded
Indiana: Extruded
Iowa: Extruded
Kansas: Extruded
Kentucky: Extruded
Louisiana: Extruded
Maine: Extruded
Maryland: Extruded
Massachusetts: Extruded
Michigan: Extruded
Minnesota: Extruded
Mississippi: Extruded
Missouri: Extruded
Montana: Incremental (corners not rounded)
Nebraska: Extruded
Nevada: Incremental (corners not rounded)
New Hampshire: Extruded
New Jersey: Extruded, incremental on toll highways
New Mexico: Extruded
New York: Incremental
North Carolina: Incremental
North Dakota: Extruded
Ohio: Extruded
Oklahoma: Extruded
Oregon: Extruded
Pennsylvania: Extruded
Rhode Island: Extruded
South Carolina: Extruded
South Dakota: Extruded
Tennessee: Extruded
Texas: Extruded
Utah: Incremental (corners not rounded)
Vermont: Extruded
Virginia: Extruded, used to be incremental on older signs
Washington: Incremental (corners not rounded)
West Virginia: Extruded
Wisconsin: Extruded
Wyoming: Incremental (corners not rounded)