Couldn't find an "Ohio notes" thread for some reason, so posting this separately. Saw that ODOT is apparently going to rebuild the interchange of I-475/US23 and US20A and widen the highway to three lanes extending south to US24. This will also be the first diverging diamond interchange in the Toledo area. https://www.toledoblade.com/local/transportation/2022/01/30/i475-interchange-project-plans-updates/stories/20220127137 (https://www.toledoblade.com/local/transportation/2022/01/30/i475-interchange-project-plans-updates/stories/20220127137)
Quote from: Ellie on January 31, 2022, 06:28:08 AM
Couldn't find an "Ohio notes" thread for some reason
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=16419.0
So this new interchange would be numbered Exit 5. I wonder why there wasn't an exit at this location before? It seems like a more worthy location for an interchange than the Salisbury Rd./W. Drussel Dr. interchange just to the north (which was added in 1989, according to Wikipedia).
Toledo Blade Paywall
I-475 exit 2 at Dixie highway is a diverging diamond. Maybe the 1st in Lucas County.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on January 31, 2022, 03:45:28 PM
So this new interchange would be numbered Exit 5. I wonder why there wasn't an exit at this location before? It seems like a more worthy location for an interchange than the Salisbury Rd./W. Drussel Dr. interchange just to the north (which was added in 1989, according to Wikipedia).
Easier access to the Turnpike? That's the only reason I can think of when looking at the area on Google maps.
The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times. In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.
Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange. I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.
The way I remember it, US 23 in Michigan is all freeway and thus worthy of carrying the I-475 shield. Why hasn't that happened? I know something would have to be done with the existing I-475 segment between I-75 and Flint, maybe that one could be I-475 A. Otherwise, it looks like a straight shot from Toledo through Flint.
Quote from: TempoNick on February 03, 2022, 10:50:09 AM
The way I remember it, US 23 in Michigan is all freeway and thus worthy of carrying the I-475 shield. Why hasn't that happened? I know something would have to be done with the existing I-475 segment between I-75 and Flint, maybe that one could be I-475 A. Otherwise, it looks like a straight shot from Toledo through Flint.
Why should it happen? Putting up Interstate shields won't do anything to address the design and capacity deficiencies of the freeway, and US-23 would still run concurrent with it (unless Michigan were to decommission US-23 between Standish and Mackinaw City, which also would be pointless). It would be nothing more than a waste of money for the purpose of signing a completely redundant route.
Quote from: wanderer2575 on February 03, 2022, 11:28:01 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 03, 2022, 10:50:09 AM
The way I remember it, US 23 in Michigan is all freeway and thus worthy of carrying the I-475 shield. Why hasn't that happened? I know something would have to be done with the existing I-475 segment between I-75 and Flint, maybe that one could be I-475 A. Otherwise, it looks like a straight shot from Toledo through Flint.
Why should it happen? Putting up Interstate shields won't do anything to address the design and capacity deficiencies of the freeway, and US-23 would still run concurrent with it (unless Michigan were to decommission US-23 between Standish and Mackinaw City, which also would be pointless). It would be nothing more than a waste of money for the purpose of signing a completely redundant route.
It's an interstate grade bypass of I-75 through Detroit and carries a large amount of long distance through traffic that would otherwise be on the interstate system.
Out of the various long distance freeways in Michigan, it's the one most worth a designation, IMO.
Quote from: TempoNick on February 03, 2022, 10:50:09 AM
The way I remember it, US 23 in Michigan is all freeway and thus worthy of carrying the I-475 shield. Why hasn't that happened? I know something would have to be done with the existing I-475 segment between I-75 and Flint, maybe that one could be I-475 A. Otherwise, it looks like a straight shot from Toledo through Flint.
That makes no sense whatsoever.
Quote from: thenetwork on February 01, 2022, 07:52:03 PM
The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times. In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.
Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange. I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.
Maybe what has changed is that Dana and The Andersons have new HQ buildings at Maumee Western. Commuters don't want to fight the traffic on Dussel?
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 03, 2022, 12:49:31 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on February 01, 2022, 07:52:03 PM
The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times. In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.
Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange. I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.
Maybe what has changed is that Dana and The Andersons have new HQ buildings at Maumee Western. Commuters don't want to fight the traffic on Dussel?
I was also pondering why they would build that interchange. Here's a reason given in the article:
QuoteFor the port authority, an I-475 interchange at Maumee-Western will function in particular as a new way to get to Eugene F. Kranz Toledo Express Airport, particularly for trucks traveling to or from industrial sites on the airfield's south side.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 03, 2022, 11:52:10 AM
Quote from: wanderer2575 on February 03, 2022, 11:28:01 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 03, 2022, 10:50:09 AM
The way I remember it, US 23 in Michigan is all freeway and thus worthy of carrying the I-475 shield. Why hasn't that happened? I know something would have to be done with the existing I-475 segment between I-75 and Flint, maybe that one could be I-475 A. Otherwise, it looks like a straight shot from Toledo through Flint.
Why should it happen? Putting up Interstate shields won't do anything to address the design and capacity deficiencies of the freeway, and US-23 would still run concurrent with it (unless Michigan were to decommission US-23 between Standish and Mackinaw City, which also would be pointless). It would be nothing more than a waste of money for the purpose of signing a completely redundant route.
It's an interstate grade bypass of I-75 through Detroit and carries a large amount of long distance through traffic that would otherwise be on the interstate system.
Out of the various long distance freeways in Michigan, it's the one most worth a designation, IMO.
True. But, I've pointed out to folks in other threads on this board that is not Michigan's style. The state signs routes based not on highway design, but on location and perhaps historical significance. Many freeways in state could be interstates with relatively modest upgrades. But, Mich will have freeways that are not interstates probably because the state doesn't believe the public will demand it. Heck the state even duplicates numbers! (i.e. I-94 & M-94, I-69 & M-69, I-96 & M-96). Michigan has never cared about route designations like other states.
Michiganders are smart enough to read the legend on a map to determine if a road is a freeway or not. At least back when most people had maps.
And I'm not sure if US-23 around the north side of Ann Arbor is fully up to Interstate standards. There are left exits for M-14.
Quote from: TempoNick on February 03, 2022, 10:50:09 AM
The way I remember it, US 23 in Michigan is all freeway and thus worthy of carrying the I-475 shield. Why hasn't that happened? I know something would have to be done with the existing I-475 segment between I-75 and Flint, maybe that one could be I-475 A. Otherwise, it looks like a straight shot from Toledo through Flint.
Not all of US-23 in Michigan is freeway, the stretch between Standish and Mackinaw City certainly isn't and never will be. Just because it's a freeway doesn't mean it's worthy of being an Interstate. I-75 doesn't really enter Flint it just passes to the west of it with I-475 going into Flint. I don't see any reason to make US-23 into an Interstate.
Quote from: GaryV on February 03, 2022, 03:11:56 PM
Michiganders are smart enough to read the legend on a map to determine if a road is a freeway or not. At least back when most people had maps.
And I'm not sure if US-23 around the north side of Ann Arbor is fully up to Interstate standards. There are left exits for M-14.
Left exits are permitted, especially at major splits like M-14, and that section is not up to Interstate standards.
Bridge clearance and shoulder width are the most obvious deficiencies on the entirety of the US 23 freeway. I know down near Milan there's a couple underpasses with less than 16' clearance and narrow shoulders, and street view (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3216495,-83.7353298,3a,42.9y,258.5h,85.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-IjJrQjbnm80bsUge2qX2w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) shows a 14' clearance overpass right before the western M-14 split.
Quote from: zzcarp on February 03, 2022, 05:07:19 PM
Quote from: GaryV on February 03, 2022, 03:11:56 PM
Michiganders are smart enough to read the legend on a map to determine if a road is a freeway or not. At least back when most people had maps.
And I'm not sure if US-23 around the north side of Ann Arbor is fully up to Interstate standards. There are left exits for M-14.
Left exits are permitted, especially at major splits like M-14, and that section is not up to Interstate standards.
Bridge clearance and shoulder width are the most obvious deficiencies on the entirety of the US 23 freeway. I know down near Milan there's a couple underpasses with less than 16' clearance and narrow shoulders, and street view (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3216495,-83.7353298,3a,42.9y,258.5h,85.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-IjJrQjbnm80bsUge2qX2w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) shows a 14' clearance overpass right before the western M-14 split.
You're talking about the two railroad overpasses that are both under 15 feet clearance. One is near MM 22 and the other is near MM 26.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 03, 2022, 05:06:23 PM
I-75 doesn't really enter Flint it just passes to the west of it with I-475 going into Flint.
Pedantically, I-75 does go through that little isthmus of Flint that connects to Bishop Airport.
Quote from: GaryV on February 03, 2022, 06:29:42 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 03, 2022, 05:06:23 PM
I-75 doesn't really enter Flint it just passes to the west of it with I-475 going into Flint.
Pedantically, I-75 does go through that little isthmus of Flint that connects to Bishop Airport.
Yes that is true only about a half mile of I-75 runs through the city of Flint due to the isthmus that connects the majority of Flint to Bishop Airport. Usually the airport isn't in the principal cities city limits but it is here which causes Flint Township to be discontinuous otherwise it mine as well be Flint Township.
Quote from: thenetwork on February 01, 2022, 07:52:03 PM
The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times. In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.
Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange. I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.
This story shows that the City of Toledo is still paying the price for decades of using its ample water resources to fuel growth beyond its borders while hollowing out its own urban/suburban core.
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 04, 2022, 05:24:39 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on February 01, 2022, 07:52:03 PM
The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times. In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.
Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange. I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.
This story shows that the City of Toledo is still paying the price for decades of using its ample water resources to fuel growth beyond its borders while hollowing out its own urban/suburban core.
There are many reasons why Toledo faltered after 1970, I'd guess little of it's own doing. Show me a heavy industrial Great Lakes city that has truly prospered since that time? Pittsburgh? Cleveland? Detroit? Erie? Buffalo? Milwaukee? It was a structural, societal change, challenging national policy and global economic changes.
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 04, 2022, 04:34:37 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 04, 2022, 05:24:39 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on February 01, 2022, 07:52:03 PM
The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times. In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.
Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange. I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.
This story shows that the City of Toledo is still paying the price for decades of using its ample water resources to fuel growth beyond its borders while hollowing out its own urban/suburban core.
There are many reasons why Toledo faltered after 1970, I'd guess little of it's own doing. Show me a heavy industrial Great Lakes city that has truly prospered since that time? Pittsburgh? Cleveland? Detroit? Erie? Buffalo? Milwaukee? It was a structural, societal change, challenging national policy and global economic changes.
Green Bay has done quite well. It's major industry is papermaking. They also make a lot of cheese (and it's a Green Bay factory that is responsible for the recent cream cheese shortage).
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 04, 2022, 04:34:37 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on February 04, 2022, 05:24:39 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on February 01, 2022, 07:52:03 PM
The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times. In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.
Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange. I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.
This story shows that the City of Toledo is still paying the price for decades of using its ample water resources to fuel growth beyond its borders while hollowing out its own urban/suburban core.
There are many reasons why Toledo faltered after 1970, I'd guess little of it's own doing. Show me a heavy industrial Great Lakes city that has truly prospered since that time? Pittsburgh? Cleveland? Detroit? Erie? Buffalo? Milwaukee? It was a structural, societal change, challenging national policy and global economic changes.
Fair enough. True enough. But the City did contribute to its own decline.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 03, 2022, 11:52:10 AM
It's an interstate grade bypass of I-75 through Detroit and carries a large amount of long distance through traffic that would otherwise be on the interstate system.
Out of the various long distance freeways in Michigan, it's the one most worth a designation, IMO.
What I get from following this page is that a lot of people here look at things with an engineer mentality. That's the wrong way to look at it when it comes to signing these roads. People need to look at these things from the standpoint of a driver / traveler. For somebody from out of the area, that i-475 shield conveys a huge amount of information in a very quick and concise manner. For somebody taking it from Ohio, it instantly tells you that you can take the freeway all the way to Flint without having to go to Detroit.
The US 23 shield means that you could be stuck behind an amish buggy for 10 miles if you don't know it's a freeway.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 03, 2022, 11:54:17 AM
That makes no sense whatsoever.
Sure it does. It means somebody south of Toledo can instantly know that they've got a freeway alternative to Flint and beyond. On the other hand, a highway signed with the US shield is a mixed bag. You could very easily be stuck behind somebody putzing along for 10 miles on a two-lane road with no ability to pass them. Example: US 35 in West Virginia as of a couple of years ago.
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
You usually are stuck behind someone putzing along on US-23 between Toledo and Flint as it is. Very under capacity highway.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 04, 2022, 07:51:07 PM
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
It's practically a straight line all the way from south of Toledo all the way through Flint. It makes sense to have one Interstate number for that road. Remember, I-275 goes through three states.
Quote from: TempoNick on February 04, 2022, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 04, 2022, 07:51:07 PM
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
It's practically a straight line all the way from south of Toledo all the way through Flint. It makes sense to have one Interstate number for that road. Remember, I-275 goes through three states.
A 3-digit interstate makes no sense. I-73 might make sense, but who'd want to give that inferior roadway any interstate number? Hey, how about a negative number?
Quote from: TempoNick on February 04, 2022, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 04, 2022, 07:51:07 PM
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
It's practically a straight line all the way from south of Toledo all the way through Flint. It makes sense to have one Interstate number for that road. Remember, I-275 goes through three states.
The US-23 freeway doesn't even connect with I-475 to begin with.
Quote from: TempoNick on February 04, 2022, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 04, 2022, 07:51:07 PM
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
It's practically a straight line all the way from south of Toledo all the way through Flint. It makes sense to have one Interstate number for that road. Remember, I-275 goes through three states.
It doesn't make sense because US-23 isn't going to end in Toledo in the first place. What about the part between Standish and Mackinaw City? Just because US-23 is a freeway doesn't mean it should be an Interstate the route number is perfectly fine the way it is. What isn't fine is that the highway is under capacity as it is built now. I-275 going through three states means nothing regarding this. Drivers in Michigan are smart enough to figure out what's a freeway and what's not.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 05, 2022, 04:41:31 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 04, 2022, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 04, 2022, 07:51:07 PM
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
It's practically a straight line all the way from south of Toledo all the way through Flint. It makes sense to have one Interstate number for that road. Remember, I-275 goes through three states.
The US-23 freeway doesn't even connect with I-475 to begin with.
There was a proposal several years ago to connect the south end of I-475 to US-23 but nothing ever came of it and with development in the area it's probably never going to happen. I haven't heard much about it in years.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 05, 2022, 06:45:10 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 05, 2022, 04:41:31 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 04, 2022, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 04, 2022, 07:51:07 PM
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
It's practically a straight line all the way from south of Toledo all the way through Flint. It makes sense to have one Interstate number for that road. Remember, I-275 goes through three states.
The US-23 freeway doesn't even connect with I-475 to begin with.
There was a proposal several years ago to connect the south end of I-475 to US-23 but nothing ever came of it and with development in the area it's probably never going to happen. I haven't heard much about it in years.
IF a new I-475 stretched from Perrysburg to Flint, what would come of the northern e-w leg of 475 that connects Sylvania and Central Toledo? Would that be I-875?
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 05, 2022, 06:42:44 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 04, 2022, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 04, 2022, 07:51:07 PM
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
It's practically a straight line all the way from south of Toledo all the way through Flint. It makes sense to have one Interstate number for that road. Remember, I-275 goes through three states.
It doesn't make sense because US-23 isn't going to end in Toledo in the first place. What about the part between Standish and Mackinaw City? Just because US-23 is a freeway doesn't mean it should be an Interstate the route number is perfectly fine the way it is. What isn't fine is that the highway is under capacity as it is built now. I-275 going through three states means nothing regarding this. Drivers in Michigan are smart enough to figure out what's a freeway and what's not.
Nothing regarding US-23's routing is relevant to this to begin with. It would not be affected.
Additionally, the last statement is largely assuming all traffic is local and that long distance travelers / out of state do not exist. If someone is not familiar with the area, the idea one road might be a freeway or not is not clear. An interstate designation would provide clarity.
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 05, 2022, 10:08:48 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 05, 2022, 06:45:10 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 05, 2022, 04:41:31 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 04, 2022, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 04, 2022, 07:51:07 PM
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
It's practically a straight line all the way from south of Toledo all the way through Flint. It makes sense to have one Interstate number for that road. Remember, I-275 goes through three states.
The US-23 freeway doesn't even connect with I-475 to begin with.
There was a proposal several years ago to connect the south end of I-475 to US-23 but nothing ever came of it and with development in the area it's probably never going to happen. I haven't heard much about it in years.
IF a new I-475 stretched from Perrysburg to Flint, what would come of the northern e-w leg of 475 that connects Sylvania and Central Toledo? Would that be I-875?
You could make it an extention of I-280 via the brief multiplex with I-75.
If US 23 between Toledo and Flint is designated as I-X75, US 23 could be truncated at Toledo while the non-concurrent US 23 north of Bay City could be renamed M-23. There are plenty of examples of US highways becoming state highways with the same number. I don't see any advantage in doing this though. I'm fine with US 23 as is.
Quote from: thenetwork on February 05, 2022, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 05, 2022, 10:08:48 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 05, 2022, 06:45:10 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 05, 2022, 04:41:31 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 04, 2022, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 04, 2022, 07:51:07 PM
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
It's practically a straight line all the way from south of Toledo all the way through Flint. It makes sense to have one Interstate number for that road. Remember, I-275 goes through three states.
The US-23 freeway doesn't even connect with I-475 to begin with.
There was a proposal several years ago to connect the south end of I-475 to US-23 but nothing ever came of it and with development in the area it's probably never going to happen. I haven't heard much about it in years.
IF a new I-475 stretched from Perrysburg to Flint, what would come of the northern e-w leg of 475 that connects Sylvania and Central Toledo? Would that be I-875?
You could make it an extention of I-280 via the brief multiplex with I-75.
Or you could make it I-238E. That may not make any sense whatsoever, but it somehow makes more sense than what you just suggested.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 06, 2022, 03:35:28 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on February 05, 2022, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 05, 2022, 10:08:48 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 05, 2022, 06:45:10 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 05, 2022, 04:41:31 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 04, 2022, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 04, 2022, 07:51:07 PM
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
It's practically a straight line all the way from south of Toledo all the way through Flint. It makes sense to have one Interstate number for that road. Remember, I-275 goes through three states.
The US-23 freeway doesn't even connect with I-475 to begin with.
There was a proposal several years ago to connect the south end of I-475 to US-23 but nothing ever came of it and with development in the area it's probably never going to happen. I haven't heard much about it in years.
IF a new I-475 stretched from Perrysburg to Flint, what would come of the northern e-w leg of 475 that connects Sylvania and Central Toledo? Would that be I-875?
You could make it an extention of I-280 via the brief multiplex with I-75.
Or you could make it I-238E. That may not make any sense whatsoever, but it somehow makes more sense than what you just suggested.
On a more serious note, I've seen I-875 proposed for the route, which I think makes sense as it avoids needing to re-designate any other highways.
I disagree with others here on the lack of utility for signing this as an Interstate; signing it as I-875 would indicate it as a true bypass of the Detroit metro area for long-distance travelers (especially given that I-275 doesn't directly bypass Detroit). On the other hand, whether this is worth the cost of bringing US 23 up to Interstate standards is questionable.
I-275 bypasses Detroit like it's supposed to but it doesn't bypass the Metro area.
Quote from: Ellie on February 06, 2022, 06:27:58 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 06, 2022, 03:35:28 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on February 05, 2022, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 05, 2022, 10:08:48 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 05, 2022, 06:45:10 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 05, 2022, 04:41:31 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 04, 2022, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 04, 2022, 07:51:07 PM
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
It's practically a straight line all the way from south of Toledo all the way through Flint. It makes sense to have one Interstate number for that road. Remember, I-275 goes through three states.
The US-23 freeway doesn't even connect with I-475 to begin with.
There was a proposal several years ago to connect the south end of I-475 to US-23 but nothing ever came of it and with development in the area it's probably never going to happen. I haven't heard much about it in years.
IF a new I-475 stretched from Perrysburg to Flint, what would come of the northern e-w leg of 475 that connects Sylvania and Central Toledo? Would that be I-875?
You could make it an extention of I-280 via the brief multiplex with I-75.
Or you could make it I-238E. That may not make any sense whatsoever, but it somehow makes more sense than what you just suggested.
On a more serious note, I've seen I-875 proposed for the route, which I think makes sense as it avoids needing to re-designate any other highways.
I disagree with others here on the lack of utility for signing this as an Interstate; signing it as I-875 would indicate it as a true bypass of the Detroit metro area for long-distance travelers (especially given that I-275 doesn't directly bypass Detroit). On the other hand, whether this is worth the cost of bringing US 23 up to Interstate standards is questionable.
Proposed by whom? Certainly not MDOT who has been very outspoken about opposing any 3-digit Interstate routes. They removed signage on I-296 and refused to give M-6 any I-X96 designation because they believe everyone is stupid and would become confused with so many routes ending with 96.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 06, 2022, 09:10:45 PM
Quote from: Ellie on February 06, 2022, 06:27:58 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 06, 2022, 03:35:28 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on February 05, 2022, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 05, 2022, 10:08:48 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 05, 2022, 06:45:10 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 05, 2022, 04:41:31 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 04, 2022, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 04, 2022, 07:51:07 PM
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
It's practically a straight line all the way from south of Toledo all the way through Flint. It makes sense to have one Interstate number for that road. Remember, I-275 goes through three states.
The US-23 freeway doesn't even connect with I-475 to begin with.
There was a proposal several years ago to connect the south end of I-475 to US-23 but nothing ever came of it and with development in the area it's probably never going to happen. I haven't heard much about it in years.
IF a new I-475 stretched from Perrysburg to Flint, what would come of the northern e-w leg of 475 that connects Sylvania and Central Toledo? Would that be I-875?
You could make it an extention of I-280 via the brief multiplex with I-75.
Or you could make it I-238E. That may not make any sense whatsoever, but it somehow makes more sense than what you just suggested.
On a more serious note, I've seen I-875 proposed for the route, which I think makes sense as it avoids needing to re-designate any other highways.
I disagree with others here on the lack of utility for signing this as an Interstate; signing it as I-875 would indicate it as a true bypass of the Detroit metro area for long-distance travelers (especially given that I-275 doesn't directly bypass Detroit). On the other hand, whether this is worth the cost of bringing US 23 up to Interstate standards is questionable.
Proposed by whom? Certainly not MDOT who has been very outspoken about opposing any 3-digit Interstate routes. They removed signage on I-296 and refused to give M-6 any I-X96 designation because they believe everyone is stupid and would become confused with so many routes ending with 96.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=1715.msg38511#msg38511 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=1715.msg38511#msg38511), though I misremembered -- it was actually a proposal for signing this as I-475 after all.
And I share your disappointment in MDOT. Likely never getting M-14 signed as I-394 either.
Quote from: Ellie on February 10, 2022, 10:26:04 PM
And I share your disappointment in MDOT. Likely never getting M-14 signed as I-394 either.
Certainly not until it's up to Interstate standards.
Except that Michigan has basically stopped signing new Interstates and will never designate another one ever again.
(Side note, this would be more fit for the Fictional section.)
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on February 11, 2022, 09:14:42 AM
Except that Michigan has basically stopped signing new Interstates and will never designate another one ever again.
(Side note, this would be more fit for the Fictional section.)
You guys act like just because somebody says something, Moses etches it on a tablet. Words are cheap. Just because one administrator or political appointee says something, doesn't mean squat. Things change.
Besides, maybe the guy who said it is just some engineer dork who doesn't understand how to look at things from the standpoint of the traveling public. When you're dealing with the public it's all about making things user friendly. And signing freeways with interstate shields is about as user friendly as it gets. In a split second that Red White and Blue shield tells you what kind of road you're going to be traveling on. No other shield does that.
Quote from: TempoNick on February 11, 2022, 12:53:42 PM
Quote from: BlueOutback7 on February 11, 2022, 09:14:42 AM
Except that Michigan has basically stopped signing new Interstates and will never designate another one ever again.
(Side note, this would be more fit for the Fictional section.)
You guys act like just because somebody says something, Moses etches it on a tablet. Words are cheap. Just because one administrator or political appointee says something, doesn't mean squat. Things change.
Besides, maybe the guy who said it is just some engineer dork who doesn't understand how to look at things from the standpoint of the traveling public. When you're dealing with the public it's all about making things user friendly. And signing freeways with interstate shields is about as user friendly as it gets. In a split second that Red White and Blue shield tells you what kind of road you're going to be traveling on. No other shield does that.
I agree with you in principle. Things can change administration to administration. Road construction is a bit different in that there's a permanency to highways. It's not just Michigan. The state this thread is about, Ohio has a similar philosophy. So does Florida in their own way; in Southeast Florida, most of the freeways numbered FL-8xx could be interstates. The various DOTs have a design that is layered into the philosophy of how the roads are built and numbered.
What some are advocating is a uniform principle to highway building, from interstates down to county roads. But, the interstates weren't built until the late 1950's and 60's. Many routes predate the interstate system. Then you would change the route number (and design to update the road to interstate standards), but people would still complain anyway. When I've gone to Boston, people still say Route 128, even though I-95 was designated decades ago. The same for St. Louis and Hwy 40 instead of I-64. If you change US-23 to an interstate or other roads in Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Florida, etc. folks will still use the old number for years. Sometimes you can get away with it (US-27/US-127) but I don't believe it is necessary to change numbers just to satisfy some arbitrary engineering principle. That's the beauty of the United States road system. The different quirks and systems from state to state.
Parts of US-10, US-23, US-31, US-127, US-131 and state highways such as M-6, M-10, M-53, M-60 and others could all be signed as Interstate's but what difference does it really make? Out of all these US-23 is the only one that is a freeway up to the state line and into the next state (Ohio). What would be the point of making it an Interstate? Am I going to be able to get from Toledo to Flint any quicker if it's an Interstate? I mean seriously the route number means nothing and most people don't even care if it's an Interstate or a US highway or a state highway. US-23 has been a freeway long enough that people already know it's a freeway and for any backups on the freeway that Old US-23 is right there to serve as an alternate route. It's already been mentioned but even if it did become an Interstate it would still be US-23 as well unless the part of US-23 between Standish and Mackinaw City becomes a different route which wouldn't make any sense at all. Michigan isn't trying to get rid of US-23 btw.
Quote from: Ellie on February 10, 2022, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 06, 2022, 09:10:45 PM
Quote from: Ellie on February 06, 2022, 06:27:58 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 06, 2022, 03:35:28 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on February 05, 2022, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 05, 2022, 10:08:48 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 05, 2022, 06:45:10 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 05, 2022, 04:41:31 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 04, 2022, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 04, 2022, 07:51:07 PM
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
It's practically a straight line all the way from south of Toledo all the way through Flint. It makes sense to have one Interstate number for that road. Remember, I-275 goes through three states.
The US-23 freeway doesn't even connect with I-475 to begin with.
There was a proposal several years ago to connect the south end of I-475 to US-23 but nothing ever came of it and with development in the area it's probably never going to happen. I haven't heard much about it in years.
IF a new I-475 stretched from Perrysburg to Flint, what would come of the northern e-w leg of 475 that connects Sylvania and Central Toledo? Would that be I-875?
You could make it an extention of I-280 via the brief multiplex with I-75.
Or you could make it I-238E. That may not make any sense whatsoever, but it somehow makes more sense than what you just suggested.
On a more serious note, I've seen I-875 proposed for the route, which I think makes sense as it avoids needing to re-designate any other highways.
I disagree with others here on the lack of utility for signing this as an Interstate; signing it as I-875 would indicate it as a true bypass of the Detroit metro area for long-distance travelers (especially given that I-275 doesn't directly bypass Detroit). On the other hand, whether this is worth the cost of bringing US 23 up to Interstate standards is questionable.
Proposed by whom? Certainly not MDOT who has been very outspoken about opposing any 3-digit Interstate routes. They removed signage on I-296 and refused to give M-6 any I-X96 designation because they believe everyone is stupid and would become confused with so many routes ending with 96.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=1715.msg38511#msg38511 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=1715.msg38511#msg38511), though I misremembered -- it was actually a proposal for signing this as I-475 after all.
And I share your disappointment in MDOT. Likely never getting M-14 signed as I-394 either.
Again, proposed by whom? "There's talk of..." and proposals are not the same thing. Certainly MDOT or any governmental authority didn't propose this, or anything on that particular post. Everything on there appears to belong n Fictional Highways, as does the bulk of the discussion here, even though it didn't start out that way.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 12, 2022, 02:57:20 AM
Quote from: Ellie on February 10, 2022, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 06, 2022, 09:10:45 PM
Quote from: Ellie on February 06, 2022, 06:27:58 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 06, 2022, 03:35:28 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on February 05, 2022, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 05, 2022, 10:08:48 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 05, 2022, 06:45:10 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 05, 2022, 04:41:31 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 04, 2022, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 04, 2022, 07:51:07 PM
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
It's practically a straight line all the way from south of Toledo all the way through Flint. It makes sense to have one Interstate number for that road. Remember, I-275 goes through three states.
The US-23 freeway doesn't even connect with I-475 to begin with.
There was a proposal several years ago to connect the south end of I-475 to US-23 but nothing ever came of it and with development in the area it's probably never going to happen. I haven't heard much about it in years.
IF a new I-475 stretched from Perrysburg to Flint, what would come of the northern e-w leg of 475 that connects Sylvania and Central Toledo? Would that be I-875?
You could make it an extention of I-280 via the brief multiplex with I-75.
Or you could make it I-238E. That may not make any sense whatsoever, but it somehow makes more sense than what you just suggested.
On a more serious note, I've seen I-875 proposed for the route, which I think makes sense as it avoids needing to re-designate any other highways.
I disagree with others here on the lack of utility for signing this as an Interstate; signing it as I-875 would indicate it as a true bypass of the Detroit metro area for long-distance travelers (especially given that I-275 doesn't directly bypass Detroit). On the other hand, whether this is worth the cost of bringing US 23 up to Interstate standards is questionable.
Proposed by whom? Certainly not MDOT who has been very outspoken about opposing any 3-digit Interstate routes. They removed signage on I-296 and refused to give M-6 any I-X96 designation because they believe everyone is stupid and would become confused with so many routes ending with 96.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=1715.msg38511#msg38511 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=1715.msg38511#msg38511), though I misremembered -- it was actually a proposal for signing this as I-475 after all.
And I share your disappointment in MDOT. Likely never getting M-14 signed as I-394 either.
Again, proposed by whom? "There's talk of..." and proposals are not the same thing. Certainly MDOT or any governmental authority didn't propose this, or anything on that particular post. Everything on there appears to belong n Fictional Highways, as does the bulk of the discussion here, even though it didn't start out that way.
The only way US 23 will be an interstate is if locals push for it. US 41 became I-41 in neighboring Wisconsin because boosters in Appleton, Oshkosh, and Fond du Lac wanted it. (Appleton-Oshkosh is the third-largest metro in WI.) Ann Arbor and Brighton already have interstate access via I-94 and I-96 respectively. Dundee, Milan, and Fenton are probably not large enough to have that influence alone assuming they even want it an interstate highway. You want it to be an interstate, do the legwork to convince the locals. Convincing the entire AA Roads community isn't going to matter, although that's unlikely to happen either.
Why can't we just make all things Michigan...Fictional.
(regards, state of Ohio)
Even if the US 23 corridor never gets an Interstate designation, there is one thing that I think should happen. Getting rid of the US 23/US 223 duplex. US 223 should end at US 23's Exit 5 in Michigan, and not ride with US 23 across the state line to Exit 234 in Ohio. Not unless they want to put 223 back on it's original Memorial Hwy./Main St./Monroe St. alignment.
Quote from: skluth on February 12, 2022, 11:28:27 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 12, 2022, 02:57:20 AM
Quote from: Ellie on February 10, 2022, 10:26:04 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 06, 2022, 09:10:45 PM
Quote from: Ellie on February 06, 2022, 06:27:58 AM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 06, 2022, 03:35:28 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on February 05, 2022, 10:57:04 AM
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 05, 2022, 10:08:48 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 05, 2022, 06:45:10 AM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 05, 2022, 04:41:31 AM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 04, 2022, 10:05:19 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 04, 2022, 07:51:07 PM
While I agree generally, I wouldn't call it I-475 - that already exists. How about I-875?
It should be a separate, unique route from the urban Flint highway.
It's practically a straight line all the way from south of Toledo all the way through Flint. It makes sense to have one Interstate number for that road. Remember, I-275 goes through three states.
The US-23 freeway doesn't even connect with I-475 to begin with.
There was a proposal several years ago to connect the south end of I-475 to US-23 but nothing ever came of it and with development in the area it's probably never going to happen. I haven't heard much about it in years.
IF a new I-475 stretched from Perrysburg to Flint, what would come of the northern e-w leg of 475 that connects Sylvania and Central Toledo? Would that be I-875?
You could make it an extention of I-280 via the brief multiplex with I-75.
Or you could make it I-238E. That may not make any sense whatsoever, but it somehow makes more sense than what you just suggested.
On a more serious note, I've seen I-875 proposed for the route, which I think makes sense as it avoids needing to re-designate any other highways.
I disagree with others here on the lack of utility for signing this as an Interstate; signing it as I-875 would indicate it as a true bypass of the Detroit metro area for long-distance travelers (especially given that I-275 doesn't directly bypass Detroit). On the other hand, whether this is worth the cost of bringing US 23 up to Interstate standards is questionable.
Proposed by whom? Certainly not MDOT who has been very outspoken about opposing any 3-digit Interstate routes. They removed signage on I-296 and refused to give M-6 any I-X96 designation because they believe everyone is stupid and would become confused with so many routes ending with 96.
https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=1715.msg38511#msg38511 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=1715.msg38511#msg38511), though I misremembered -- it was actually a proposal for signing this as I-475 after all.
And I share your disappointment in MDOT. Likely never getting M-14 signed as I-394 either.
Again, proposed by whom? "There's talk of..." and proposals are not the same thing. Certainly MDOT or any governmental authority didn't propose this, or anything on that particular post. Everything on there appears to belong n Fictional Highways, as does the bulk of the discussion here, even though it didn't start out that way.
The only way US 23 will be an interstate is if locals push for it. US 41 became I-41 in neighboring Wisconsin because boosters in Appleton, Oshkosh, and Fond du Lac wanted it. (Appleton-Oshkosh is the third-largest metro in WI.) Ann Arbor and Brighton already have interstate access via I-94 and I-96 respectively. Dundee, Milan, and Fenton are probably not large enough to have that influence alone assuming they even want it an interstate highway. You want it to be an interstate, do the legwork to convince the locals. Convincing the entire AA Roads community isn't going to matter, although that's unlikely to happen either.
I don't want it to be an interstate. I think that would be stupid.
I don't want US-23 to be an Interstate either. It's perfectly fine the way it is and Michigan doesn't need to add another mile of Interstate highway. This state isn't that hard to get around in, the state highways, US highways and Interstate highways are fine the way they are for the most part in the state. Making US-23 into an Interstate accomplishes nothing.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 15, 2022, 09:52:40 AM
Making US-23 into an Interstate accomplishes nothing.
Better indication of its freeway status as a bypass route of Detroit, and a glaring gap in the interstate system...
but those aren't important, of course.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 15, 2022, 03:19:23 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 15, 2022, 09:52:40 AM
Making US-23 into an Interstate accomplishes nothing.
Better indication of its freeway status as a bypass route of Detroit, and a glaring gap in the interstate system...
but those aren't important, of course.
VA 164 isn't an interstate either and it's local for you. For that matter, neither is VA 288 which is a de facto southwest bypass of Richmond. And I haven't even started on VA 28, VA 37, and VA 168. Interstate freeways aren't a priority in Virginia. It only seems to be a thing in North Carolina and Texas.
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 06:42:00 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 15, 2022, 03:19:23 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 15, 2022, 09:52:40 AM
Making US-23 into an Interstate accomplishes nothing.
Better indication of its freeway status as a bypass route of Detroit, and a glaring gap in the interstate system...
but those aren't important, of course.
VA 164 isn't an interstate either and it's local for you. For that matter, neither is VA 288 which is a de facto southwest bypass of Richmond. And I haven't even started on VA 28, VA 37, and VA 168. Interstate freeways aren't a priority in Virginia. It only seems to be a thing in North Carolina and Texas.
All of those are local routes. And I've never said anything about not wanting numbers for those. Arguably, VA-164 should be I-164, and VA-288 should be some I-x95. I'll also add VA-895 / I-895 there. However, I see less importance for VA-28, VA-37, or VA-168.
US-23 is a major long distance highway that is carrying interstate traffic that is on the interstate highway system at either end and continuing on.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 15, 2022, 03:19:23 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 15, 2022, 09:52:40 AM
Making US-23 into an Interstate accomplishes nothing.
Better indication of its freeway status as a bypass route of Detroit, and a glaring gap in the interstate system...
but those aren't important, of course.
Coming from Ohio, someone not familiar with the region only sees control cities of Sylvania, OH and Ann Arbor, MI. So for them, US-23 does not look to be an alternative bypass of I-75 around Detroit
ODOT *could* install a supplemental BGS before Perrysburg to say that US-23 is the Detroit bypass and US-23 North is suggested for travel to Flint and Northern Michigan.
Coming from the north, I believe US-23 from Flint does use both Ann Arbor AND Toledo as control cities -- effectively saying that US-23 South is the Detroit bypass.
Quote from: thenetwork on February 15, 2022, 07:21:36 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 15, 2022, 03:19:23 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 15, 2022, 09:52:40 AM
Making US-23 into an Interstate accomplishes nothing.
Better indication of its freeway status as a bypass route of Detroit, and a glaring gap in the interstate system...
but those aren't important, of course.
Coming from Ohio, someone not familiar with the region only sees control cities of Sylvania, OH and Ann Arbor, MI. So for them, US-23 does not look to be an alternative bypass of I-75 around Detroit
ODOT *could* install a supplemental BGS before Perrysburg to say that US-23 is the Detroit bypass and US-23 North is suggested for travel to Flint and Northern Michigan.
Coming from the north, I believe US-23 from Flint does use both Ann Arbor AND Toledo as control cities -- effectively saying that US-23 South is the Detroit bypass.
Just Ann Arbor is the control city on SB US-23 in Flint. Toledo isn't used as a control city at all until you get to Ann Arbor.
^ Admittedly, there should at least be mention of both Toledo and Flint from either end, to clearly indicate it's a through route and the best route for long distance traffic to follow.
Along with being supplemented as a I-x75 route, but at minimum the former.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 15, 2022, 03:19:23 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 15, 2022, 09:52:40 AM
Making US-23 into an Interstate accomplishes nothing.
Better indication of its freeway status as a bypass route of Detroit, and a glaring gap in the interstate system...
but those aren't important, of course.
It's not a bypass of Detroit. It's no more a bypass of Detroit than I-69 is. Both are direct routes to other destinations that don't really come anywhere near Detroit. And what's this about a glaring gap in the interstate system? That makes no sense at all.
I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system. Where is the gap? US-23 is a US highway not an Interstate and I-75 doesn't have a gap in it and neither does I-275 or I-96 or I-696 other routes you could possibly take. I-69 is also a bypass of Detroit like Terry said and we aren't lodging for it to be renumbered as an I-x94. It makes no sense to make US-23 into an Interstate like I said earlier it accomplishes nothing.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 16, 2022, 07:58:57 AM
I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system. Where is the gap? US-23 is a US highway not an Interstate and I-75 doesn't have a gap in it and neither does I-275 or I-96 or I-696 other routes you could possibly take. I-69 is also a bypass of Detroit like Terry said and we aren't lodging for it to be renumbered as an I-x94. It makes no sense to make US-23 into an Interstate like I said earlier it accomplishes nothing.
I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and
do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.
I also think there is a gap in the interstates around Detroit; US 23 serves functionally as the third-ring western bypass for metro Detroit; Southfield and I-275 being the first and second. (Maybe I-69 is the fourth to the west, second to the north?)
But neither of those allows you to "bypass" the metro area, because even though they connect with other interstates, they end having only brought you to an east-west route, and they don't allow you to continue north into the suburbs. I would never take Southfield or I-275 if I were heading to Mackinac from Toledo.
Most of the people using US 23 are Michiganders and Ohioans, and that route goes through important cities in each state - so folks from this area are very familiar that it is a major route (with a few weird detours, like Fostoria), and do use it as a far western bypass of Metro Detroit.
Reminds me that the city of Detroit is geographically quite a backwater; unless you are going to Canada, there is almost no reason one would casually pass through Detroit.
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 16, 2022, 04:15:49 PM
Reminds me that the city of Detroit is geographically quite a backwater; unless you are going to Canada, there is almost no reason one would casually pass through Detroit.
Pulled out because it's an important point. Detroit isn't directly north of Toledo; it's northeast. It's really off the main line of traffic going north-south into the Lower Peninsula. If anything, I-75 should be routed along US 23 and I-75 going Flint-Detroit-Toledo should be something else (not necessarily interstate). Michigan's geography of two large peninsulas with many smaller peninsulas means there's a lot of the state that is isolated from mainline traffic, and the entire state essentially is cut off from east-west traffic across the country. It's geographically similar to Florida in that it's mostly cut off from the national grid on three sides.
When the M routes were set up before there were even US Highways, what is now the US-23 corridor north from Toledo was M-65 (no freeways, of course). M-10 went from Toledo, Telegraph Rd to Dearborn, Michigan Ave to downtown Detroit, Woodward and then further north Dixie Highway through Flint and the Saginaw/Bay City area. It then roughly followed what is now US-23 through Alpena and other cities - although the shoreline route hadn't been built yet.
When the US highways came, the major route was US-25 from Toledo through Detroit to Port Huron, and later into the Thumb. US-23 was considered a lesser route, so even though it should have been east of US-25, it ended up being west of it and went from Toledo through Flint and Alpena to Mackinaw.
US-10 also ran northwest out of Detroit through Flint, Saginaw, Midland and then west to the ferry at Ludington.
When the Interstates came, it was recognized that I-94 coming out of Chicago and going through Detroit made sense to continue to Port Huron and the Blue Water Bridge. I-75 replaced US-25 out of Toledo to Detroit, and then north. The section from Standish north of Bay City to Grayling went along the M-76 routing that never was a US Highway. Then it replaced old US-27 to Mackinaw and beyond to Sault Ste Marie replacing a section of US-2.
That left the other parts of US-23 where they were - Toledo to Flint and along the "Sunrise Side" Lake Huron shoreline - plus the concurrency with I-75 in between.
Just like US-23 in Ohio today is not the major route to Columbus, neither was it considered the major route in Michigan. It still isn't, despite being a very good routing from the south to Up North. That's probably why an Interstate number was never pursued for it.
US-23 is usually a pain to drive between Flint and Toledo. MDOT should have widened the entire thing by now.
Quote from: GaryV on February 16, 2022, 06:29:32 PM
When the Interstates came, it was recognized that I-94 coming out of Chicago and going through Detroit made sense to continue to Port Huron and the Blue Water Bridge. I-75 replaced US-25 out of Toledo to Detroit, and then north. The section from Standish north of Bay City to Grayling went along the M-76 routing that never was a US Highway. Then it replaced old US-27 to Mackinaw and beyond to Sault Ste Marie replacing a section of US-2.
I remember seeing some early interstate plans map with I-77 on the Detroit-Port Huron part of I-94, and I-94 ending in Detroit. Existing I-77 is I-79 and exist I-79 simply doesn't exist on the map. What a colossal waste of a 2di number that would've been!
Quote from: GaryV on February 16, 2022, 06:29:32 PM
Just like US-23 in Ohio today is not the major route to Columbus, neither was it considered the major route in Michigan. It still isn't, despite being a very good routing from the south to Up North. That's probably why an Interstate number was never pursued for it.
That's because the major route from Toledo to Columbus is I-75/OH 15/US 23, not US 23 :bigass:
Would be nice to get this routing (at least the OH 15/US 23 part) unified under a single number though).
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 16, 2022, 04:15:49 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 16, 2022, 07:58:57 AM
I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system. Where is the gap? US-23 is a US highway not an Interstate and I-75 doesn't have a gap in it and neither does I-275 or I-96 or I-696 other routes you could possibly take. I-69 is also a bypass of Detroit like Terry said and we aren't lodging for it to be renumbered as an I-x94. It makes no sense to make US-23 into an Interstate like I said earlier it accomplishes nothing.
I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.
I also think there is a gap in the interstates around Detroit; US 23 serves functionally as the third-ring western bypass for metro Detroit; Southfield and I-275 being the first and second. (Maybe I-69 is the fourth to the west, second to the north?)
But neither of those allows you to "bypass" the metro area, because even though they connect with other interstates, they end having only brought you to an east-west route, and they don't allow you to continue north into the suburbs. I would never take Southfield or I-275 if I were heading to Mackinac from Toledo.
Most of the people using US 23 are Michiganders and Ohioans, and that route goes through important cities in each state - so folks from this area are very familiar that it is a major route (with a few weird detours, like Fostoria), and do use it as a far western bypass of Metro Detroit.
Reminds me that the city of Detroit is geographically quite a backwater; unless you are going to Canada, there is almost no reason one would casually pass through Detroit.
Likewise, you wouldn't take US-23 to get to the Mackinac Bridge. It will get you there, but it certainly isn't a direct route. And I-75 is not a direct route through Florida to Miami. Is The Florida turnpike considered to be a bypass of I-75, and should it be given an I-x75 route number? I think not.
With this same logic, I-12 should not exist either.
Nor I-57.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 16, 2022, 10:26:48 PM
With this same logic, I-12 should not exist either.
Nor I-57.
I-57 makes perfect sense. What else are you going to call it? I-12 could possibly be an I-x10 route except it would be pretty long for a 3-digit.
I-57 is a long distance bypass of I-55 and I-12 could probably be an I-x10 but it isn't.
^ Using the logic of US-23, I-12 should be a US-190 freeway, and I-57 should be a SR-37 / US-45 freeway.
Why do we have a Fictional Highways Forum when everyone posts their fictional nonsense here?
Copied from Fictional Highways forum:
Title: Posting about fictional highways
Post by: Scott5114 on October 15, 2009, 09:08:31 AM
One common roadgeek pastime is to fantasize about what one would do were one to be in control of the highway system. However, it is necessary to keep fact extracted from fiction. in a discussion about real highway systems, one cannot avoid considering the political, fiscal, and environmental forces that shape them. In any such discussion, completely made-up designations and highways not seriously considered by the pertinent road agency are likely to distract.
This section of the forum, then, is intended to contain these musings upon what would be nice if anything were possible. It is provided as an oasis from the reality of the world that prevents the highways we really want from coming to fruition. We are aware here that many of the ideas posted here are financially untenable, or would be otherwise doomed to die by the hands of NIMBYs and environmentalists. But this section of the forum is just for fun, would-be-neat-to-have projects. Sure, if you can point out a way to improve an idea by avoiding a crowded neighborhood or environmental feature do that, but outright dismissing an idea here as "costing too much" or something like that just spoils the fun for others. Obviously, if all of these things were possible, many of them would be actually done.
On the other hand, many of us are interested in debate regarding those very forces which are not considered in this section. There are many other facets to I-99 than its number, for instance; maybe a thread could start off focused on the acid rock deposits and how they were dealt with or the future expansion of the highway towards New York. Threads like these don't need to be derailed by your bright idea for renumbering it. And please, nothing in the main forums about extending I-40 to Bakersfield unless you're talking about solid plans put out by Caltrans. Those sorts of things should be kept here and only here. Please help keep threads in the other boards on-topic by removing fictional highway ideas to this board. Thank you for your consideration of those who may not wish to have their examination of the system that exists interfered with by ideas which are obviously impossible.
Now can we get back on topic plase?
The bulk of the posts on here seem worthy to be split into its own fictional thread - I agree.
It doesn't discount the merits of such a designation, however.
The original post was about widening and rebuilding a part of I-475/US-23 in Ohio. With that I say that is a start but probably nothing will ever come of widening US-23 in Michigan. Toledo is a decent sized metro area so a widening project is probably needed.
US-23 is US-23 because that is what it is nothing more, nothing less. It's worked this way for this long I don't see any point in attempting to fix it unless it is to widen it between Flint and Perrysburg.
^ What is the issue with MDOT converting those "flex lanes" that either a) already exist or b) are proposed between Ann Arbor and Brighton to a full 6 lane configuration? As far as I'm seeing, it would result in a cross section with three full size lanes, a full paved right shoulder, and a 3-4 foot paved left shoulder, which is not entirely abnormal for an urban 6 lane highway. And if it's desired in the future, they could widen slightly to the left to provide a full shoulder section.
It seems this would be a big step forward towards a complete 6 laning of the corridor. But for some reason, they insist the shoulder lane is only needed during peak hours in the peak direction.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 17, 2022, 11:23:29 AM
Why do we have a Fictional Highways Forum when everyone posts their fictional nonsense here?
Because Michigan is a fictional state.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 17, 2022, 09:23:04 PM
^ What is the issue with MDOT converting those "flex lanes" that either a) already exist or b) are proposed between Ann Arbor and Brighton to a full 6 lane configuration? As far as I'm seeing, it would result in a cross section with three full size lanes, a full paved right shoulder, and a 3-4 foot paved left shoulder, which is not entirely abnormal for an urban 6 lane highway. And if it's desired in the future, they could widen slightly to the left to provide a full shoulder section.
It seems this would be a big step forward towards a complete 6 laning of the corridor. But for some reason, they insist the shoulder lane is only needed during peak hours in the peak direction.
They should do that but it seems like they are hell bent on adding on to to the flex lanes it doesn't make much sense though the freeway is pretty busy in that area. All I'm asking for is to widen the freeway between I-94 and I-96. I'm not sure what they will do but I have been driving this freeway in this area for the entire time I have had a driver's license and can tell you that they have done very little to address the capacity on US-23. I-94 in the western part of Michigan is the same thing other than the six lanes they have in K-Zoo it's four lanes the entire way to Benton Harbor.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 17, 2022, 07:20:38 PM
The original post was about widening and rebuilding a part of I-475/US-23 in Ohio. With that I say that is a start but probably nothing will ever come of widening US-23 in Michigan. Toledo is a decent sized metro area so a widening project is probably needed.
US-23 is US-23 because that is what it is nothing more, nothing less. It's worked this way for this long I don't see any point in attempting to fix it unless it is to widen it between Flint and Perrysburg.
North of Toledo:
I-75 (six lanes) carries about 40K to I-275
I-275 (six lanes) between 18 and 40K to I-94
US 23 (four lanes) 27-38K to I-94; it jumps to 62K around Ann Arbor
https://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,4616,7-151-11151_11033-22141--,00.html
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 18, 2022, 07:16:08 AM
All I'm asking for is to widen the freeway between I-94 and I-96. I'm not sure what they will do but I have been driving this freeway in this area for the entire time I have had a driver's license and can tell you that they have done very little to address the capacity on US-23.
My guess is it will be at least another 20 years before we see a proper widening. At some point, the original '60s overpasses will have to be replaced, and that will allow MDOT to widen it properly. This flex lane thing was a way to duct-tape it together for a couple decades while placating the commuters.
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 16, 2022, 04:15:49 PM
Most of the people using US 23 are Michiganders and Ohioans, and that route goes through important cities in each state - so folks from this area are very familiar that it is a major route (with a few weird detours, like Fostoria), and do use it as a far western bypass of Metro Detroit.
You could make an argument that if/once US 23 between Findlay and Columbus gets upgraded, it should be I-475 from Columbus all the way to Flint. Southern segment south of Flint could be called I-475A or something like that or give it an M-xx number.
Think about it. A Columbus to Ann Arbor freeway is almost poetic.
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 18, 2022, 08:10:58 PM
This flex lane thing was a way to duct-tape it together for a couple decades while placating the commuters.
Yesterday was my first time using the I-670 flex Lane in Columbus. For some reason, people seem to be scared to use that lane. Only half the cars were using that lane compared to the existing three full-time lanes.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 16, 2022, 10:22:46 PM
Is The Florida turnpike considered to be a bypass of I-75, and should it be given an I-x75 route number? I think not.
The Florida Turnpike is one unified road with a single identity. It's not (starting in Columbus and going to Flint) US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again. Now if you're looking for something to call stupid, that's stupid.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 17, 2022, 07:20:38 PM
US-23 is US-23 because that is what it is nothing more, nothing less. It's worked this way for this long I don't see any point in attempting to fix it unless it is to widen it between Flint and Perrysburg.
Pull out a map and look at I-475 in Toledo and eyeball it past Flint. There's a reason both of those highways have the same number. Somebody at ODOT and or MDOT imagined them connecting at some point. It's not really that far-fetched.
Quote from: Hot Rod Hootenanny on February 17, 2022, 11:29:25 PM
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 17, 2022, 11:23:29 AM
Why do we have a Fictional Highways Forum when everyone posts their fictional nonsense here?
Because Michigan is a fictional state.
Huh?
Quote from: TempoNick on February 18, 2022, 11:53:45 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 17, 2022, 07:20:38 PM
US-23 is US-23 because that is what it is nothing more, nothing less. It's worked this way for this long I don't see any point in attempting to fix it unless it is to widen it between Flint and Perrysburg.
Pull out a map and look at I-475 in Toledo and eyeball it past Flint. There's a reason both of those highways have the same number. Somebody at ODOT and or MDOT imagined them connecting at some point. It's not really that far-fetched.
No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.
Quote from: BrianP on February 03, 2022, 01:35:21 PM
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 03, 2022, 12:49:31 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on February 01, 2022, 07:52:03 PM
The Salisbury/Dussell exit was designed for Turnpike/I-475/US-23 traffic to bypass the Southwyck/Airport Highway commercial areas which used to be very congested at times. In 1989, Dussell was an enjoyable drive with little business development at the time. By the late 90's, it exploded with business plazas and hotels.
Now that the Southwyck area is pretty much a sliver of it's former self (The mall closed years ago and most of the surrounding big box stores soon followed), I'm surprised there will be another I-475 interchange in that area, let alone another Maumee interchange. I'm sure that traffic counts north of the pike on US-20/Reynolds Road are less than south of the pike nowadays.
Maybe what has changed is that Dana and The Andersons have new HQ buildings at Maumee Western. Commuters don't want to fight the traffic on Dussel?
I was also pondering why they would build that interchange. Here's a reason given in the article:QuoteFor the port authority, an I-475 interchange at Maumee-Western will function in particular as a new way to get to Eugene F. Kranz Toledo Express Airport, particularly for trucks traveling to or from industrial sites on the airfield's south side.
Airport Highway (OH-2) is not a good route for cargo trucks to take to get to Toledo Express. I don't think it EVER was a good route. From its primitive origins as a two-lane road known as Chicago Pike, the growth along Airport Highway has been mind-boggling. You have two shopping centers on Airport just west of I-475/US-23, a road that was been expanded at least twice and now there is heavy commercial growth all the way past Holloway Road. With commercial growth, you have traffic and traffic signals and trucks having to stop and start for the whole stretch from I-475/US-23 all the way to Toledo Express. And now that the Salisbury/Dussel area has exploded in growth, ODOT is having to play catch-up to meet the demand. Hopefully with the new Maumee-Western interchange (US-20A) and the continued widening of I-475/US-23 southward, this helps accommodate the increased demand. Plus, Toledo Express is more of a cargo airport than a passenger airport and a lot of the cargo traffic ends up having to go to the south edge of Toledo Express, along US-20A. So the interchange plan works. I'm curious to see how much build-up happens once the new interchange opens. Right now, there is an industrial park just west of I-475/US-23 along Maumee-Western (US-20A) that is primed to grow once the new interchange is built.
Quote from: TempoNick on February 18, 2022, 11:29:14 PM
Quote from: JREwing78 on February 18, 2022, 08:10:58 PM
This flex lane thing was a way to duct-tape it together for a couple decades while placating the commuters.
Yesterday was my first time using the I-670 flex Lane in Columbus. For some reason, people seem to be scared to use that lane. Only half the cars were using that lane compared to the existing three full-time lanes.
Interesting. I wonder if there will exist the same phenomenon in Madison when they finally open the flex lane on The Beltline. At least in the early days before anyone gets used to it.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 17, 2022, 09:23:04 PM
^ What is the issue with MDOT converting those "flex lanes" that either a) already exist or b) are proposed between Ann Arbor and Brighton to a full 6 lane configuration?
Thoroughly discussed in this thread: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2055.0 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2055.0)
Basically, at least based on current standards, they would have needed a 12-foot inner shoulder for a full-time 6-laning, and that would've radically jumped the price tag (at the time, the flex lanes were $120 million v.s. $600 million for a full widening). MDOT didn't come out and say it, but I suspect this was a federal funding issue, because there's plenty of examples within Michigan of similar or narrower shoulders on a 6-lane roadway.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 16, 2022, 07:58:57 AM
I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 09, 2017, 11:14:19 AM
This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 19, 2022, 07:14:54 AM
No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.
Okay, then keep it. Starting in Columbus and going to Flint: US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again; or starting in Toledo and going to Flint: I-475/US-23/I-475 Again.
That's very user friendly. Great engineering. LOL
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 19, 2022, 01:28:52 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 16, 2022, 07:58:57 AM
I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 09, 2017, 11:14:19 AM
This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 16, 2022, 04:15:49 PM
I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.
But you see, that's the point. If you are local to the area, you know it as a bypass. Why not sign it so that other people can use it as well and saving 25 miles of driving at the same time?
Can people not see on the map that it is shorter? And for those who no longer know how to read maps, does mapping software not tell you that it's shorter to use US-23?
Quote from: GaryV on February 19, 2022, 02:04:46 PM
Can people not see on the map that it is shorter? And for those who no longer know how to read maps, does mapping software not tell you that it's shorter to use US-23?
Not everybody is a road geek. Not everybody wants to chance it that US-23 is going to be a stoplight after stoplight after stoplight kind of road. Why all the opposition to making it easy for people?
Image: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QixBcCM9pV4ioITQacacySsEcJoEHndx/view?usp=sharing
If you guys can't see the beauty of a single unified Interstate highway from Columbus to Flint using an Ix75 number and connecting back to I-75 at Flint, then what can I say?
Orrrrrrrrrrr ......... back to I-73 again.
Quote from: TempoNick on February 19, 2022, 03:01:46 PM
Quote from: GaryV on February 19, 2022, 02:04:46 PM
Can people not see on the map that it is shorter? And for those who no longer know how to read maps, does mapping software not tell you that it's shorter to use US-23?
Not everybody is a road geek. Not everybody wants to chance it that US-23 is going to be a stoplight after stoplight after stoplight kind of road. Why all the opposition to making it easy for people?
Image: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QixBcCM9pV4ioITQacacySsEcJoEHndx/view?usp=sharing
If you guys can't see the beauty of a single unified Interstate highway from Columbus to Flint using an Ix75 number and connecting back to I-75 at Flint, then what can I say?
Orrrrrrrrrrr ......... back to I-73 again.
Because there is no point to do it. Just to make some people happy isn't a good enough reason. There is no need for an Interstate from Columbus to Flint, heck ODOT hasn't even built one from Columbus to Toledo so why would there be a reason to have one from Columbus to Flint? US-23 connects at both ends as it is so why does the number need to be changed? You are talking to people that live near it and/or drive it on a regular basis. We know what US-23 is and where it takes us and don't need it to be an Interstate to help us along.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 19, 2022, 01:28:52 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 16, 2022, 07:58:57 AM
I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 09, 2017, 11:14:19 AM
This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.
Yeah that's what it does, nothing I've ever really had to think of while driving. Point being I already know what US-23 is, it does and where it takes me.
Quote from: TempoNick on February 19, 2022, 01:53:58 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 19, 2022, 07:14:54 AM
No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.
Okay, then keep it. Starting in Columbus and going to Flint: US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again; or starting in Toledo and going to Flint: I-475/US-23/I-475 Again.
That's very user friendly. Great engineering. LOL
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 19, 2022, 01:28:52 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 16, 2022, 07:58:57 AM
I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 09, 2017, 11:14:19 AM
This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 16, 2022, 04:15:49 PM
I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.
But you see, that's the point. If you are local to the area, you know it as a bypass. Why not sign it so that other people can use it as well and saving 25 miles of driving at the same time?
I-475 in Michigan would never be in the picture, it ends 4 miles SE of the US-23 split and only intersects it at it's northern terminus at MM 125. It's the same thing as the northern end of I-275 where development has stopped any hope of extending the freeway. There is an apartment complex about 300 feet south of where I-475 empties into I-75.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 19, 2022, 04:44:47 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 19, 2022, 01:53:58 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 19, 2022, 07:14:54 AM
No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.
Okay, then keep it. Starting in Columbus and going to Flint: US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again; or starting in Toledo and going to Flint: I-475/US-23/I-475 Again.
That's very user friendly. Great engineering. LOL
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 19, 2022, 01:28:52 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 16, 2022, 07:58:57 AM
I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 09, 2017, 11:14:19 AM
This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 16, 2022, 04:15:49 PM
I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.
But you see, that's the point. If you are local to the area, you know it as a bypass. Why not sign it so that other people can use it as well and saving 25 miles of driving at the same time?
I-475 in Michigan would never be in the picture, it ends 4 miles SE of the US-23 split and only intersects it at it's northern terminus at MM 125. It's the same thing as the northern end of I-275 where development has stopped any hope of extending the freeway. There is an apartment complex about 300 feet south of where I-475 empties into I-75.
This is still all fictional. Let it go.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 19, 2022, 04:31:59 PM
Because there is no point to do it.
No point to seamless connectivity, consistency and making things less confusing to travelers?
Quote from: TempoNick on February 19, 2022, 09:10:42 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 19, 2022, 04:31:59 PM
Because there is no point to do it.
No point to seamless connectivity, consistency and making things less confusing to travelers?
Obviously not, because it doesn't benefit him because he's local and knows the road.
Quote from: TempoNick on February 18, 2022, 11:53:45 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 17, 2022, 07:20:38 PM
US-23 is US-23 because that is what it is nothing more, nothing less. It's worked this way for this long I don't see any point in attempting to fix it unless it is to widen it between Flint and Perrysburg.
Pull out a map and look at I-475 in Toledo and eyeball it past Flint. There's a reason both of those highways have the same number. Somebody at ODOT and or MDOT imagined them connecting at some point. It's not really that far-fetched.
The reason is because that is how 3-digit interstates are normally numbered. The first digit increases from south to north and from west to east. Each state does this independently of other states (usually). Nobody at MDOT or ODOT imagined connecting them. If what you said were the case, then I-275 in the Detroit area, I-275 in the Cincinnati area, I-275 in Knoxville and I-275 in the Tampa/St. Petersburg should all be connected and have the same route number. So, you would either have to multiplex I-275 with I-75 for most of the route, or have a discontinuous I-75 with the rest renumbered I-275, except for the points where I-275 presently branches off from I-75, which would remain I-75.
Quote from: TempoNick on February 19, 2022, 03:01:46 PM
Quote from: GaryV on February 19, 2022, 02:04:46 PM
Can people not see on the map that it is shorter? And for those who no longer know how to read maps, does mapping software not tell you that it's shorter to use US-23?
Not everybody is a road geek. Not everybody wants to chance it that US-23 is going to be a stoplight after stoplight after stoplight kind of road. Why all the opposition to making it easy for people?
Image: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QixBcCM9pV4ioITQacacySsEcJoEHndx/view?usp=sharing
If you guys can't see the beauty of a single unified Interstate highway from Columbus to Flint using an Ix75 number and connecting back to I-75 at Flint, then what can I say?
Orrrrrrrrrrr ......... back to I-73 again.
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 19, 2022, 09:43:35 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 19, 2022, 09:10:42 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 19, 2022, 04:31:59 PM
Because there is no point to do it.
No point to seamless connectivity, consistency and making things less confusing to travelers?
Obviously not, because it doesn't benefit him because he's local and knows the road.
Okay, if you're not local and not a roadgeek, have little to no knowledge about highways and where they go, and live anywhere between Toledo and south Florida, how are you going to get to Flint? You're either going to have to look at maps or atlases, or use GPS, which should send you up US-23. I don't imagine that Flint is used as a control city on I-75 anywhere from Toledo south, so why would anyone get the crazy idea to take I-75 from Toledo to Flint?
Quote from: skluth on February 19, 2022, 08:22:06 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 19, 2022, 04:44:47 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 19, 2022, 01:53:58 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 19, 2022, 07:14:54 AM
No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.
Okay, then keep it. Starting in Columbus and going to Flint: US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again; or starting in Toledo and going to Flint: I-475/US-23/I-475 Again.
That's very user friendly. Great engineering. LOL
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 19, 2022, 01:28:52 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 16, 2022, 07:58:57 AM
I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 09, 2017, 11:14:19 AM
This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 16, 2022, 04:15:49 PM
I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.
But you see, that's the point. If you are local to the area, you know it as a bypass. Why not sign it so that other people can use it as well and saving 25 miles of driving at the same time?
I-475 in Michigan would never be in the picture, it ends 4 miles SE of the US-23 split and only intersects it at it's northern terminus at MM 125. It's the same thing as the northern end of I-275 where development has stopped any hope of extending the freeway. There is an apartment complex about 300 feet south of where I-475 empties into I-75.
This is still all fictional. Let it go.
Quote from: skluth on February 19, 2022, 08:22:06 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 19, 2022, 04:44:47 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 19, 2022, 01:53:58 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 19, 2022, 07:14:54 AM
No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.
Okay, then keep it. Starting in Columbus and going to Flint: US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again; or starting in Toledo and going to Flint: I-475/US-23/I-475 Again.
That's very user friendly. Great engineering. LOL
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 19, 2022, 01:28:52 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 16, 2022, 07:58:57 AM
I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 09, 2017, 11:14:19 AM
This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 16, 2022, 04:15:49 PM
I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.
But you see, that's the point. If you are local to the area, you know it as a bypass. Why not sign it so that other people can use it as well and saving 25 miles of driving at the same time?
I-475 in Michigan would never be in the picture, it ends 4 miles SE of the US-23 split and only intersects it at it's northern terminus at MM 125. It's the same thing as the northern end of I-275 where development has stopped any hope of extending the freeway. There is an apartment complex about 300 feet south of where I-475 empties into I-75.
This is still all fictional. Let it go.
I've reported this thread to the moderators more than once over the last several days as being mostly off topic and belonging in fictional highways. I got verbally reprimanded for reporting it more than once. Apparently, they aren't going to do anything about it. It's a shame that a legitimate post gets sidetracked with all this off topic blather and nonsense. It's a bigger shame that the moderators refuse to do anything about such obvious infractions. It should be obvious that if people want to discuss changing the number on US-23 to I-475 or any other number, that they should do so in a separate thread in the appropriate, Fictional Highways, forum...especially when the forum rules specifically state so!
How does keeping it US-23 make it more confusing to travelers? This doesn't make any sense. It's been US-23 since 1926 so for 96 years it has been US-23. Furthermore US-23 has been a freeway for over 60 years it's not like they just made it into a freeway 20 years ago or something. What is the problem with keeping the number US-23? People seem to think just because it's a freeway that it should be an Interstate. MDOT and ODOT have no desire to make it into an Interstate when it's already US-23.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 20, 2022, 06:57:49 AM
How does keeping it US-23 make it more confusing to travelers? This doesn't make any sense. It's been US-23 since 1926 so for 96 years it has been US-23. Furthermore US-23 has been a freeway for over 60 years it's not like they just made it into a freeway 20 years ago or something. What is the problem with keeping the number US-23? People seem to think just because it's a freeway that it should be an Interstate. MDOT and ODOT have no desire to make it into an Interstate when it's already US-23.
but even if people do think that, why would anyone think that this thread is the proper place to do so?
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 20, 2022, 07:23:22 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 20, 2022, 06:57:49 AM
How does keeping it US-23 make it more confusing to travelers? This doesn't make any sense. It's been US-23 since 1926 so for 96 years it has been US-23. Furthermore US-23 has been a freeway for over 60 years it's not like they just made it into a freeway 20 years ago or something. What is the problem with keeping the number US-23? People seem to think just because it's a freeway that it should be an Interstate. MDOT and ODOT have no desire to make it into an Interstate when it's already US-23.
but even if people do think that, why would anyone think that this thread is the proper place to do so?
I'm not sure on that. This thread was something about widening I-475 in Ohio I have no idea how or why it got to be about US-23 in Michigan.
Quote from: Terry Shea on February 20, 2022, 03:21:12 AM
Quote from: skluth on February 19, 2022, 08:22:06 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 19, 2022, 04:44:47 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 19, 2022, 01:53:58 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 19, 2022, 07:14:54 AM
No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.
Okay, then keep it. Starting in Columbus and going to Flint: US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again; or starting in Toledo and going to Flint: I-475/US-23/I-475 Again.
That's very user friendly. Great engineering. LOL
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 19, 2022, 01:28:52 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 16, 2022, 07:58:57 AM
I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 09, 2017, 11:14:19 AM
This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 16, 2022, 04:15:49 PM
I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.
But you see, that's the point. If you are local to the area, you know it as a bypass. Why not sign it so that other people can use it as well and saving 25 miles of driving at the same time?
I-475 in Michigan would never be in the picture, it ends 4 miles SE of the US-23 split and only intersects it at it's northern terminus at MM 125. It's the same thing as the northern end of I-275 where development has stopped any hope of extending the freeway. There is an apartment complex about 300 feet south of where I-475 empties into I-75.
This is still all fictional. Let it go.
Quote from: skluth on February 19, 2022, 08:22:06 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 19, 2022, 04:44:47 PM
Quote from: TempoNick on February 19, 2022, 01:53:58 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 19, 2022, 07:14:54 AM
No that is not the reason that it's I-475 in Flint and in Toledo. Michigan arranges the 3di's in order, the four 3dis that I-75 has in Michigan are I-275, I-375, I-475 and I-675 in that order. It really is pretty far fetched and is something that has never been proposed.
Okay, then keep it. Starting in Columbus and going to Flint: US-23/OH-15/I-75/I-475/US-23 Again/I-475 Again; or starting in Toledo and going to Flint: I-475/US-23/I-475 Again.
That's very user friendly. Great engineering. LOL
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 19, 2022, 01:28:52 PM
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 16, 2022, 07:58:57 AM
I agree with Terry Shea. I have never thought of US-23 as a bypass of Detroit or a gap in the Interstate highway system.
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 09, 2017, 11:14:19 AM
This freeway ultimately serves as a bypass of Detroit, the freeway part starts and ends at I-75. Traveling on US 23 from Flint to Toledo saves you 25 miles vs. using I-75 through Detroit.
Quote from: westerninterloper on February 16, 2022, 04:15:49 PM
I could see it being renumbered I-475 for many of the reasons stated in the thread. I live in Toledo and do think of and use it as a bypass when I'm going up north; it keeps me from otherwise going through Detroit on I-75.
But you see, that's the point. If you are local to the area, you know it as a bypass. Why not sign it so that other people can use it as well and saving 25 miles of driving at the same time?
I-475 in Michigan would never be in the picture, it ends 4 miles SE of the US-23 split and only intersects it at it's northern terminus at MM 125. It's the same thing as the northern end of I-275 where development has stopped any hope of extending the freeway. There is an apartment complex about 300 feet south of where I-475 empties into I-75.
This is still all fictional. Let it go.
I've reported this thread to the moderators more than once over the last several days as being mostly off topic and belonging in fictional highways. I got verbally reprimanded for reporting it more than once. Apparently, they aren't going to do anything about it. It's a shame that a legitimate post gets sidetracked with all this off topic blather and nonsense. It's a bigger shame that the moderators refuse to do anything about such obvious infractions. It should be obvious that if people want to discuss changing the number on US-23 to I-475 or any other number, that they should do so in a separate thread in the appropriate, Fictional Highways, forum...especially when the forum rules specifically state so!
Verbally? They called you up?
You "stick to the topic" people must not know how conversations work in real life. You sit at the table, you have a beer with somebody. You talk. One subject leads to a related subject. The related subject may relate to another related subject. You have a few more beers. You laugh, you argue a little. You go home.
If you stick to just one topic when you're having a beer with somebody, that makes for a pretty boring conversation. And that's all this is. Just another form of having a conversation.
P.S. The road is already there so it is not a fantasy topic. It could easily be given a single unified identity. Since so many of you pretend to have an engineering mindset, engineers like to distill and simplify, not complicate. Having three numbers for a road that could easily have one or two numbers is called complicating things.
Quote from: TempoNick on February 20, 2022, 01:14:14 PM
P.S. The road is already there so it is not a fantasy topic. It could easily be given a single unified identity. Since so many of you pretend to have an engineering mindset, engineers like to distill and simplify, not complicate. Having three numbers for a road that could easily have one or two numbers is called complicating things.
It's a fantasy topic as there is no call to change the number or to change to interstate status. When you find an actual public official make a call for such action, it will no longer be fantasy. I've created a thread (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=31066.0) for all those highways some here insist need to be interstates. Feel free to discuss your US 23 highway and other Michigan interstate fantasies there.
Quote from: TempoNick on February 20, 2022, 01:07:37 PM
You "stick to the topic" people must not know how conversations work in real life. You sit at the table, you have a beer with somebody. You talk. One subject leads to a related subject. The related subject may relate to another related subject. You have a few more beers. You laugh, you argue a little. You go home.
If you stick to just one topic when you're having a beer with somebody, that makes for a pretty boring conversation. And that's all this is. Just another form of having a conversation.
There are many different forums here with thousands of topics available. You're free to comment on any of them or start a new topic in the appropriate forum. Now what part of this do you not understand?
Copied from Fictional Highways forum:
Title: Posting about fictional highways
Post by: Scott5114 on October 15, 2009, 09:08:31 AM
"One common roadgeek pastime is to fantasize about what one would do were one to be in control of the highway system. However, it is necessary to keep fact extracted from fiction. in a discussion about real highway systems, one cannot avoid considering the political, fiscal, and environmental forces that shape them. In any such discussion, completely made-up designations and highways not seriously considered by the pertinent road agency are likely to distract.
This section of the forum, then, is intended to contain these musings upon what would be nice if anything were possible. It is provided as an oasis from the reality of the world that prevents the highways we really want from coming to fruition. We are aware here that many of the ideas posted here are financially untenable, or would be otherwise doomed to die by the hands of NIMBYs and environmentalists. But this section of the forum is just for fun, would-be-neat-to-have projects. Sure, if you can point out a way to improve an idea by avoiding a crowded neighborhood or environmental feature do that, but outright dismissing an idea here as "costing too much" or something like that just spoils the fun for others. Obviously, if all of these things were possible, many of them would be actually done.
On the other hand, many of us are interested in debate regarding those very forces which are not considered in this section. There are many other facets to I-99 than its number, for instance; maybe a thread could start off focused on the acid rock deposits and how they were dealt with or the future expansion of the highway towards New York. Threads like these don't need to be derailed by your bright idea for renumbering it. And please, nothing in the main forums about extending I-40 to Bakersfield unless you're talking about solid plans put out by Caltrans. Those sorts of things should be kept here and only here. Please help keep threads in the other boards on-topic by removing fictional highway ideas to this board. Thank you for your consideration of those who may not wish to have their examination of the system that exists interfered with by ideas which are obviously impossible."
It couldn't be any clearer! All you're doing is derailing the thread and going about it in a bullying manner!
Quote from: TempoNick on February 20, 2022, 01:14:14 PM
P.S. The road is already there so it is not a fantasy topic. It could easily be given a single unified identity. Since so many of you pretend to have an engineering mindset, engineers like to distill and simplify, not complicate. Having three numbers for a road that could easily have one or two numbers is called complicating things.
US-23 is a single, unified identity! You just contradicted yourself. Moreover, engineers don't establish route numbers, nor do I see anyone who isn't an engineer attempting to be an engineer. And once again, what part of this do you not understand?
Copied from Fictional Highways forum:
Title: Posting about fictional highways
Post by: Scott5114 on October 15, 2009, 09:08:31 AM
"One common roadgeek pastime is to fantasize about what one would do were one to be in control of the highway system. However, it is necessary to keep fact extracted from fiction. in a discussion about real highway systems, one cannot avoid considering the political, fiscal, and environmental forces that shape them. In any such discussion, completely made-up designations and highways not seriously considered by the pertinent road agency are likely to distract.
This section of the forum, then, is intended to contain these musings upon what would be nice if anything were possible. It is provided as an oasis from the reality of the world that prevents the highways we really want from coming to fruition. We are aware here that many of the ideas posted here are financially untenable, or would be otherwise doomed to die by the hands of NIMBYs and environmentalists. But this section of the forum is just for fun, would-be-neat-to-have projects. Sure, if you can point out a way to improve an idea by avoiding a crowded neighborhood or environmental feature do that, but outright dismissing an idea here as "costing too much" or something like that just spoils the fun for others. Obviously, if all of these things were possible, many of them would be actually done.
On the other hand, many of us are interested in debate regarding those very forces which are not considered in this section. There are many other facets to I-99 than its number, for instance; maybe a thread could start off focused on the acid rock deposits and how they were dealt with or the future expansion of the highway towards New York. Threads like these don't need to be derailed by your bright idea for renumbering it. And please, nothing in the main forums about extending I-40 to Bakersfield unless you're talking about solid plans put out by Caltrans. Those sorts of things should be kept here and only here. Please help keep threads in the other boards on-topic by removing fictional highway ideas to this board. Thank you for your consideration of those who may not wish to have their examination of the system that exists interfered with by ideas which are obviously impossible."
This thread is bananas. B-A-N-A-N-A-S!
Quote from: Rothman on February 21, 2022, 08:39:36 AM
This thread is bananas. B-A-N-A-N-A-S!
I guess Toledo and Ann Arbor are claiming to not be Hollaback Girls either. :-D
This thread went from talking about a new interchange at US 20 Alternate and took an off-ramp to crazy land. That to me is Illinoing (Ave.).
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 21, 2022, 04:07:09 PM
This thread went from talking about a new interchange at US 20 Alternate and took an off-ramp to crazy land. That to me is Illinoing (Ave.).
The first 5 posts were fine, then the 6th post starts talking about the US-23 freeway in Michigan for some unknown reason. People really need to can it with this US-23 needs to be an Interstate stuff. I can't for the life of me figure out why people who probably rarely if ever use US-23 between Flint and Toledo care about what route number the freeway has. I use US-23 between Flint and Toledo frequently and would think it'd be stupid to make it into an Interstate because it serves no purpose.
Quote from: Flint1979 on February 23, 2022, 08:07:52 AM
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 21, 2022, 04:07:09 PM
This thread went from talking about a new interchange at US 20 Alternate and took an off-ramp to crazy land. That to me is Illinoing (Ave.).
The first 5 posts were fine, then the 6th post starts talking about the US-23 freeway in Michigan for some unknown reason. People really need to can it with this US-23 needs to be an Interstate stuff. I can't for the life of me figure out why people who probably rarely if ever use US-23 between Flint and Toledo care about what route number the freeway has. I use US-23 between Flint and Toledo frequently and would think it'd be stupid to make it into an Interstate because it serves no purpose.
Off-topic.
Maybe they want every roadway to be an Interstate, even their own driveways.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 23, 2022, 01:31:37 PM
Maybe they want every roadway to be an Interstate, even their own driveways.
I hope this is sarcasm.
Quote from: The Ghostbuster on February 23, 2022, 01:31:37 PM
Maybe they want every roadway to be an Interstate, even their own driveways.
That's more FritzOwl specifically.
Quote from: TempoNick on February 19, 2022, 03:01:46 PM
Quote from: GaryV on February 19, 2022, 02:04:46 PM
Can people not see on the map that it is shorter? And for those who no longer know how to read maps, does mapping software not tell you that it's shorter to use US-23?
Not everybody is a road geek. Not everybody wants to chance it that US-23 is going to be a stoplight after stoplight after stoplight kind of road. Why all the opposition to making it easy for people?
Image: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QixBcCM9pV4ioITQacacySsEcJoEHndx/view?usp=sharing
If you guys can't see the beauty of a single unified Interstate highway from Columbus to Flint using an Ix75 number and connecting back to I-75 at Flint, then what can I say?
Orrrrrrrrrrr ......... back to I-73 again.
Why does every moderately sized city need to be connected with a numbered route? Why does there need to be a highway with a common number from Columbus to Flint via Toledo? Is there a lot of Toledo to Flint traffic that is currently confused by the US-23 designation or is taking I-75 through Detroit?
Most people when they are taking a trip between cities like Toledo and Flint, and its not a regular route for them, will look it up on their phone or GPS. Do you think the general public would see I-475 an automatically assume that its a bypass of Detroit that goes all the way to Flint?
It seems to me that a lot of roadgeeks have no idea how "normal" people navigate.
^ Again, off topic.
A new thread was created in fictional highways regarding the proposal, and discussion was dropped here. If it's off topic to discuss hypotheticals in here, then it's also off topic to "attack" or argue them.
Here's people talking about it 19 years ago and the same said then can be said today.
https://groups.google.com/g/misc.transport.road/c/fG5c3OR4RT8/m/gqz2YxMCz8cJ?pli=1
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 23, 2022, 08:47:01 PM
^ Again, off topic.
A new thread was created in fictional highways regarding the proposal, and discussion was dropped here. If it's off topic to discuss hypotheticals in here, then it's also off topic to "attack" or argue them.
Are you a moderator? Because apparently they don't agree with you.
And unless it's a moderator saying it's off topic then I will follow up discussions here.
Thanks.
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 23, 2022, 09:28:08 PM
Quote from: sprjus4 on February 23, 2022, 08:47:01 PM
^ Again, off topic.
A new thread was created in fictional highways regarding the proposal, and discussion was dropped here. If it's off topic to discuss hypotheticals in here, then it's also off topic to "attack" or argue them.
Are you a moderator? Because apparently they don't agree with you.
And unless it's a moderator saying it's off topic then I will follow up discussions here.
Thanks.
Then discussion in any regard of an interstate designation along US-23 should be allowed to continue on this thread without any objections.
There is nothing fictional about the US-23 freeway in Michigan.
This thread apparently derailed after the 4th post. It's gone. Start a new one about why US 23 isn't I-475 if you want.