I remember Holiday Inns and Howard Johnson's both had hotels everywhere and pretty much dominated the interstates and big cities. The latter went bankrupt and the remains were acquired by Wyndham Resorts, but the former just scaled back and raised their room rates to three digit's especially on interstates where the market is for one night stops?
Not only that all current Holiday Inns are not original buildings as they sold off their original properties to other chains or developers. Plus they abandoned the logo they once used and now use only a green capital H from the original Great Sign font.
What happened to the concept that was first their own? It seems current locations are only a fraction of their properties they once were so vast. All of them are now high rises of the ones left and no more two stories ( so it seems)with outside room entrances.
What happened? Days Inn, Super 8 and Red Roof undercut them.
Quote from: GaryV on February 02, 2022, 11:00:06 AM
What happened? Days Inn, Super 8 and Red Roof undercut them.
Don't forget Motel 6.
I was pleasantly surprised at how nice the Holiday Inn was that we stayed at in Arkansas last weekend. The free breakfast from the Perkins attached to the hotel was the icing on the cake.
They could have easily competed with those brands.
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 02, 2022, 11:08:37 AM
Don't forget Motel 6.
True.
Motel 6 and Super 8 both got their names from what they charged - $6.00 and $8.88.
I stayed in them with my parents and family back around 1970. Prior to that we didn't travel that much, but I remember staying in a Holiday Inn in Chicago on Lake Shore Drive near Navy Pier about 1965.
When I got married in 1980, I "splurged" to stay at a Holiday Inn (Holidome) the first night of our honeymoon. After that night we stayed in cabins in the UP.
Quote from: GaryV on February 02, 2022, 11:13:57 AMI remember staying in a Holiday Inn in Chicago on Lake Shore Drive near Navy Pier about 1965.
It's still there, though it's a W now and the rooftop revolving restaurant is shuttered.
Quote from: GaryV on February 02, 2022, 11:13:57 AMMotel 6 and Super 8 both got their names from what they charged - $6.00 and $8.88.
If you want to confuse the hell out of someone under the age of 35, tell them that Motel 6 was so budget-conscious, they didn't have a toll-free phone number for reservations.
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 02, 2022, 11:18:35 AM
Quote from: GaryV on February 02, 2022, 11:13:57 AMI remember staying in a Holiday Inn in Chicago on Lake Shore Drive near Navy Pier about 1965.
It's still there, though it's a W now and the rooftop revolving restaurant is shuttered.
Quote from: GaryV on February 02, 2022, 11:13:57 AMMotel 6 and Super 8 both got their names from what they charged - $6.00 and $8.88.
If you want to confuse the hell out of someone under the age of 35, tell them that Motel 6 was so conscious, they didn't have a toll-free phone number for reservations.
Or that Holiday Inn would have the desk agent find you a room ( even if it was outside the chain)if they were booked up. This was pre internet days and toll calls were involved to do that.
There were three "iconic" Holiday Inns in Indiana that are all long gone.
The first one was attached to the Star Plaza theater in Merrillville at I-65 and US 30. The hotel became a Raddison and then the hotel and theater were closed and torn down.
The second one was at the West Lafayette exit on I-65. Large hotel that was very busy for Purdue football and other campus events. Became a Days Inn and has since been torn down.
The third one was right at the Notre Dame Toll Road exit and was the closest place to campus to say on football weekends. They got over $300/night for rooms and that was back in the 1980s. It's been a couple other brands since and is now a Quality Inn.
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 02, 2022, 11:18:35 AM
Quote from: GaryV on February 02, 2022, 11:13:57 AMI remember staying in a Holiday Inn in Chicago on Lake Shore Drive near Navy Pier about 1965.
It's still there, though it's a W now and the rooftop revolving restaurant is shuttered.
Quote from: GaryV on February 02, 2022, 11:13:57 AMMotel 6 and Super 8 both got their names from what they charged - $6.00 and $8.88.
If you want to confuse the hell out of someone under the age of 35, tell them that Motel 6 was so budget-conscious, they didn't have a toll-free phone number for reservations.
I think to this day Disney still has a 407 number to call for info. They waited it out so long that it got to the point that it didn't matter anymore.
Like everything else, the market changed; other hotel companies offered something more/different, and people liked that. Holiday Inn was one of the first to standardize hotels/motel stays, but there's also a ton of competitors.
For one, many of those original properties are now 40-60+ years old. Each hotel brand has their standards and they're mostly all individually owned; fall behind on the standards (or delay that refurbishing), and owner will slide over to another banner with differing standards. Or just go it alone as an independent.
The transition to fully-enclosed hallways, instead of doors that open to the outside, was another reason to close/sell the old properties. It was easier to sell off the old property and move to an all-new one, than re-design or refurbish the entire hotel. Some folks like it, some do not.
With that, many hotels moved closer to the Interstates. High occupancy / Big Box re-zoning? Closer to the major flows of traffic (the Interstate)? There's some that stay close to their original location(s) out of necessity, such as close proximity to airports, parks, and other well-known points of interest.
Enticing travelers with "free breakfast" reduced the need for an all-day restaurant; after all, when you're now close to other nationally-known restaurants, you can cut down on your staff, food expenses, and kitchen/preparation equipment. Most people are away from their rooms during the lunch hours, and I think the restaurant can be a money pit if not kept up to standards. (I feel the hotel restaurant works well in small towns where there's fewer choices, and still seems to be kept up in "fancier" hotels.)
A logo doesn't last forever; after awhile, it loses it's "zing" because it's so well-recognized. The big distinctive Holiday Inn signs were designed to be ground-mounted, not hoisted 40 feet up in the air. A lot of new municipalities' by-laws would nix a sign with that many flashing lights, colors, and too tall for their standards. Logos are designed to be simpler, though that's been a trend for the last 50+ years.
Quote from: formulanone on February 02, 2022, 11:55:26 AM(I feel the hotel restaurant works well in small towns where there's fewer choices, and still seems to be kept up in "fancier" hotels.)
It also works tremendously well for business travelers, provided meals can be had for less than their meal allowance.
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 02, 2022, 12:04:26 PM
Quote from: formulanone on February 02, 2022, 11:55:26 AM(I feel the hotel restaurant works well in small towns where there's fewer choices, and still seems to be kept up in "fancier" hotels.)
It also works tremendously well for business travelers, provided meals can be had for less than their meal allowance.
Yeah, that's nice for places with larger concentrations of business travelers (downtown, central business districts, airports, convention centers) but less so for the overnighters and vacationers.
I think those mid-price range hotels are more profitable for the big chains than budget hotels. Which I think is why they have exploded in number and in brands in the last 20 years. Customers feel "safer" staying a hotel where one has to get through some sort of lobby or key-card entrance to get to the actual room door verses one that dumps out straight to a parking lot. (Regardless of any actual statistics in the area about crime.)
Throw some microwaved eggs and a make-your-own waffle at them in the morning and the hotel guest feels like they got their money's worth. Especially if there was also a pool and a good TV channel lineup.
The thing I noticed about older hotels versus newer hotels in my hundreds and hundreds of nights stayed is how much smaller the rooms in old hotels feel. The ceilings are lower. The bathrooms are smaller. There's rarely more than a cheap desk chair to sit in, so you wind up sitting on the bed. The HVAC is usually noisier in old hotels, too.
The traveling public generally expects better than that these days so it makes a lot of sense to rebrand, rebuild or repurpose old hotel buildings.
IHG repositioned the Holiday Inn brand to compete with likes of Hilton Garden Inns; hotels where there's an onsite bar/restaurant and some sort of large event space they can rent out to weddings or whatever. Simultaneously, they launched Holiday Inn Express to compete in the mid-range market with the likes of Hampton Inn, Fairfield Inn and so on.
It seems to have been a good move on the part of IHG because the contemporaries of the old Holiday Inn model have dropped away. In addition to Howard Johnson, Ramada used to be a big name in the hotel game, but now, they are pretty much gone, if I'm remembering correctly.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 02, 2022, 12:40:06 PM
Ramada used to be a big name in the hotel game, but now, they are pretty much gone, if I'm remembering correctly.
Ramada is low to mid range in Wyndham. Generally I'd much rather stay at AmericInn or Baymont, which Wyndham seems to promote as equivalent levels. But it's a step up from Super 8 or Days Inn.
Others, IMHO, outdid the original Holiday Inn concept. While it is correct to say that Holiday Inn was the first "standardized" motel chain, they really were not all that standard, either in terms of what they offered nor in terms of their prices, as contrasted with really standardized chains like Hampton Inn. One Hampton Inn is the same as the next as the next as the next; and, while prices will fluctuate due to time and location, its position within the local market is always at the same point. Holiday Inns, back in the day, varied in amenities and in prices, way more.
Good point on the outside rooms. They are much noisier due to people slamming doors to constantly going in and outside for whatever reason. The hallways make it more hard to go constantly outside. Plus in high crime areas you have derelicts living in the hotels as well as them trying to bum a light or smoke from you, or blasting their music etc.
I can see one reason to sell them, but the needs of the travelers like handicapped persons need the outside lower level for easier access. IMO the Motel 6 in Piscataway, NJ had the best making lower level rooms outdoors and upper level through the lobby to an inside hallway. You have the best of both worlds there covered.
Fairfield Inns first done that, but later went for a more upscale look and now resemble Courtyard Brand Marriott's family. Fairfield Brands of Marriot had first two floors outside and third floor within using a standard hotel layout for all properties with a blue roof and same designed outer staircase at the far end.
Quote from: SP Cook on February 02, 2022, 01:17:54 PM
Others, IMHO, outdid the original Holiday Inn concept. While it is correct to say that Holiday Inn was the first “standardized” motel chain, they really were not all that standard, either in terms of what they offered nor in terms of their prices, as contrasted with really standardized chains like Hampton Inn. One Hampton Inn is the same as the next as the next as the next; and, while prices will fluctuate due to time and location, its position within the local market is always at the same point. Holiday Inns, back in the day, varied in amenities and in prices, way more.
Hampton got too upscale when Hilton acquired them. For one prices skyrocketed when they took over . Prior to Hilton owning them, they were decent at $48 a night in 1993 considering you get a free breakfast that saves time and money from going to a nearby Bob Evans or Dennys.
Choice Hotels on the other hand do vary as the one I stayed at in Conway, SC offered a free hot breakfast while the same brand Choice Hotel in Florence, SC did not offer it. In fact I found out the hard way when I got up the next morning and tried to open the lobby doors ( they were using the night windows at the time at 7 am) and confronted by the desk clerk the lobby is always closed.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 02, 2022, 12:40:06 PM
I think those mid-price range hotels are more profitable for the big chains than budget hotels. Which I think is why they have exploded in number and in brands in the last 20 years. Customers feel "safer" staying a hotel where one has to get through some sort of lobby or key-card entrance to get to the actual room door verses one that dumps out straight to a parking lot. (Regardless of any actual statistics in the area about crime.)
Throw some microwaved eggs and a make-your-own waffle at them in the morning and the hotel guest feels like they got their money's worth. Especially if there was also a pool and a good TV channel lineup.
The thing I noticed about older hotels versus newer hotels in my hundreds and hundreds of nights stayed is how much smaller the rooms in old hotels feel. The ceilings are lower. The bathrooms are smaller. There's rarely more than a cheap desk chair to sit in, so you wind up sitting on the bed. The HVAC is usually noisier in old hotels, too.
The traveling public generally expects better than that these days so it makes a lot of sense to rebrand, rebuild or repurpose old hotel buildings.
IHG repositioned the Holiday Inn brand to compete with likes of Hilton Garden Inns; hotels where there's an onsite bar/restaurant and some sort of large event space they can rent out to weddings or whatever. Simultaneously, they launched Holiday Inn Express to compete in the mid-range market with the likes of Hampton Inn, Fairfield Inn and so on.
It seems to have been a good move on the part of IHG because the contemporaries of the old Holiday Inn model have dropped away. In addition to Howard Johnson, Ramada used to be a big name in the hotel game, but now, they are pretty much gone, if I'm remembering correctly.
I've been to Ramadas for conventions. Didn't like it because the hotel was old and smelled like smoke. Embassy Suites are nice but the one near here is in a bad area of town. Got asked for an e-cigarette and said no. I've also stayed at one in the Chicago area where there were some problems such as the TV not working properly.
Meanwhile, I've had no problems with other hotels such as Holiday Inn and Hampton Inn. Same with Renaissance.
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 02, 2022, 12:04:26 PM
Quote from: formulanone on February 02, 2022, 11:55:26 AM(I feel the hotel restaurant works well in small towns where there's fewer choices, and still seems to be kept up in "fancier" hotels.)
It also works tremendously well for business travelers, provided meals can be had for less than their meal allowance.
Formulaone summed it up nicely in his description
To add, each company looks at the type of traveler they want to go after, and within that vision, their portfolio of hotels will have different brands catering to difference travelers. The likes of Marriott & Hilton go for business travelers. The likes of other brands go for leisure travelers. There's some crossover - a small company may have to book stays at a Motel 6 to save money. Marriott and Hiltons have been noticing the trend of travel teams and weekend excursions for youth clubs, and have shifted their advertising to court these groups.
If I were to guess, Holiday Inn simply rebranded and split off some of their hotels to go after a different generation of travelers.
Most people don't care for the old restaurant concept, which was much like a old-time Cafe. Most restaurants attached to hotels are generally chains or more upscale local places that don't rely solely on travelers.
Quote from: roadman65 on February 02, 2022, 01:19:57 PM
I can see one reason to sell them, but the needs of the travelers like handicapped persons need the outside lower level for easier access. IMO the Motel 6 in Piscataway, NJ had the best making lower level rooms outdoors and upper level through the lobby to an inside hallway. You have the best of both worlds there covered.
I don't think the Handicap care too much about outside rooms. They still need to go to the front desk to check in, and most first floors aren't level with the parking lot and still require ramps at certain places to access.
To me, the concepts of "Holiday Inn" (as I remember them from my childhood) and "Holiday Inn Express" (as they exist now) are reversed.
I always looked up the original HI as upscale lodging, not four- or five-star resorts, but well-known and nicely-appointed. That's what HI Express is now. It's comparable to Hampton in terms of amenities and service at that price point. That, to me, would seem to be what Holiday Inn should be. HI Express should be something less.
I agree HI Express now is in the three digits per night in tall enclosed buildings like HI.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 02, 2022, 12:40:06 PM
Customers feel "safer" staying a hotel where one has to get through some sort of lobby or key-card entrance to get to the actual room door verses one that dumps out straight to a parking lot. (Regardless of any actual statistics in the area about crime.)
Yeah, customers can be pretty dumb.
Quote
The thing I noticed about older hotels versus newer hotels in my hundreds and hundreds of nights stayed is how much smaller the rooms in old hotels feel. The ceilings are lower. The bathrooms are smaller. There's rarely more than a cheap desk chair to sit in, so you wind up sitting on the bed. The HVAC is usually noisier in old hotels, too.
The traveling public generally expects better than that these days so it makes a lot of sense to rebrand, rebuild or repurpose old hotel buildings.
Why do you need ceilings higher than eight feet? Are there really a lot of hotel guests who are
that tall?
Quote
IHG repositioned the Holiday Inn brand to compete with likes of Hilton Garden Inns; hotels where there's an onsite bar/restaurant and some sort of large event space they can rent out to weddings or whatever. Simultaneously, they launched Holiday Inn Express to compete in the mid-range market with the likes of Hampton Inn, Fairfield Inn and so on.
Actually, Holiday Inn launched Hampton Inn first, and then spun it off (as a company known as Promus Hotels, which got bought out by Hilton, IIRC) and launched Holiday Inn Express. I think this all happened in the 1980s.
Quote
It seems to have been a good move on the part of IHG because the contemporaries of the old Holiday Inn model have dropped away. In addition to Howard Johnson, Ramada used to be a big name in the hotel game, but now, they are pretty much gone, if I'm remembering correctly.
Ramada got absorbed into Wyndham, just like Howard Johnson. Actually, both were part of Cendant before Wyndham bought Cendant.
Quote from: Ned Weasel on February 03, 2022, 09:32:51 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 02, 2022, 12:40:06 PM
The thing I noticed about older hotels versus newer hotels in my hundreds and hundreds of nights stayed is how much smaller the rooms in old hotels feel. The ceilings are lower. The bathrooms are smaller. There's rarely more than a cheap desk chair to sit in, so you wind up sitting on the bed. The HVAC is usually noisier in old hotels, too.
The traveling public generally expects better than that these days so it makes a lot of sense to rebrand, rebuild or repurpose old hotel buildings.
Why do you need ceilings higher than eight feet? Are there really a lot of hotel guests who are that tall?
I've wondered the same thing. I suppose I get it if a room is on the first floor which generally has higher ceilings to accommodate a lobby, a multi-use space, maybe a pool, gym or other amenities. You're probably not going to do a drop ceiling for the first floor rooms. But I've been in a lot of hotel rooms with 10 foot ceilings, regardless of what floor they are on.
Maybe they think people are bringing Nerf mini-basketball hoops to their hotel rooms to practice their mid-range jump shot?
Or...
A 10 foot ceiling would make it easier to jump on the bed without hitting your head. :-D
This thread has reminded me of a particular parody song referencing Holiday Inn
My point, perhaps clumsily made, is that "express" denotes a lower level of service. Think "Pizza Hut Express" which doesn't have the full Pizza Hut menu. I've even seen a few "Taco Bell Express" locations.
I wouldn't expect an "express" hotel to offer nicer rooms and a full hot breakfast the way HI Express does. I'd expect an "express" hotel to be basic accommodations and maybe some packaged doughnuts or honey buns as the breakfast, if a breakfast is offered at all. The full-version hotel is the one I'd expect to have a full breakfast.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 04, 2022, 02:08:24 PMMy point, perhaps clumsily made, is that "express" denotes a lower level of service.
Unless it's a train or bus, you're right - as mentioned in another thread, Delta's attempt at competing with low-cost carriers was called Delta Express.
Quote from: hbelkins on February 04, 2022, 02:08:24 PM
The full-version hotel is the one I'd expect to have a full breakfast.
Many top-line hotels don't have an included breakfast. They expect you to go to [their?] restaurant.
It's the "express" or mid-range chains that have full hot breakfasts. Many of the lower end chains have the continental version, perhaps with a waffle maker.
In my experience, the restaurant breakfasts at the likes ot Marriot are worse than running the waffle maker at Choice Hotels.
Quote from: GaryV on February 04, 2022, 02:17:52 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 04, 2022, 02:08:24 PM
The full-version hotel is the one I'd expect to have a full breakfast.
Many top-line hotels don't have an included breakfast. They expect you to go to [their?] restaurant.
It's the "express" or mid-range chains that have full hot breakfasts. Many of the lower end chains have the continental version, perhaps with a waffle maker.
Holiday Inn Express in the time of Covid in 2020 got pretty pathetic with their free "continental breakfast", as in, a bag with an apple and a Nutri-Grain Bar in it. Certainly an even swap from all you can eat eggs, sausage, bacon, pancakes, biscuits, and cinnamon rolls.
Quote from: SectorZ on February 04, 2022, 04:01:31 PM
Holiday Inn Express in the time of Covid in 2020 got pretty pathetic with their free "continental breakfast", as in, a bag with an apple and a Nutri-Grain Bar in it. Certainly an even swap from all you can eat eggs, sausage, bacon, pancakes, biscuits, and cinnamon rolls.
Everybody was doing that, not just HIE.
There's still some inconsistency on breakfast offerings within the HIE and other chains, depending on the rules of state and local health departments.
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 04, 2022, 02:16:41 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 04, 2022, 02:08:24 PMMy point, perhaps clumsily made, is that "express" denotes a lower level of service.
Unless it's a train or bus, you're right - as mentioned in another thread, Delta's attempt at competing with low-cost carriers was called Delta Express.
Midwest Express dropped the "express" so they didn't want to be in that niche. I miss the chocolate cookies.
There is one group of people who vastly prefer the outside entry rooms: People who tow. And they ask for first-floor rooms specifically. That way you can park right in front of your room and see/hear if people are trying to steal your expensive cargo such as a race car, trailer full of motorcycles/ATVs or boat. And the thieves know that you will be able to come right out and confront them rather than have to come at them from the fifth floor through stairs, elevators and corridors. This kind of event actually does happen and a lot of times it's bored people stealing the stuff just so they can rip around on it for a while and then dump it rather than sit in their trailer and do drugs/watch movies all day.
I have seen places where Holiday Inn and Holiday Inn Express were only a small distance apart, do they still compete with one another or is there a level of cooperation between them?
Also, I could be wrong but another difference I have noticed is that the original (full service) Holiday Inn includes complimentary shuttle rides to and from an airport, whereas I haven't seen an Express offer airport shuttle service (and even if they do, might be an extra upcharge fee for the Express ones).
Also speaking of airport hotels, I've seen Fairfield Inn, Residence Inn, Courtyard, Springhill Suites, and Townplace Suites surrounding the same airport -- all of which owned by Marriott. Are they all competing with one another or do they all cooperate together being that they are all connected by their parent Marriott company?
Quote from: jgb191 on February 06, 2022, 04:53:49 AM
I have seen places where Holiday Inn and Holiday Inn Express were only a small distance apart, do they still compete with one another or is there a level of cooperation between them?
Also, I could be wrong but another difference I have noticed is that the original (full service) Holiday Inn includes complimentary shuttle rides to and from an airport, whereas I haven't seen an Express offer airport shuttle service (and even if they do, might be an extra upcharge fee for the Express ones).
Also speaking of airport hotels, I've seen Fairfield Inn, Residence Inn, Courtyard, Springhill Suites, and Townplace Suites surrounding the same airport -- all of which owned by Marriott. Are they all competing with one another or do they all cooperate together being that they are all connected by their parent Marriott company?
They all compete with each other, but at the same time they are going after different price points, offerings and services valued their customers.
Locations may also be owned by the corporation themselves or by a franchisee. It's very common for one person/franchisee to own a hotel branded by Marriott and another branded by Hilton, often on the same property in 2 different buildings. While the chains themselves are in competition with each other, the franchise owner is looking to get brand loyalty business from both.
Quote from: jgb191 on February 06, 2022, 04:53:49 AM
I have seen places where Holiday Inn and Holiday Inn Express were only a small distance apart, do they still compete with one another or is there a level of cooperation between them?
In Oklahoma City, on Meridian Avenue just south of I-40, there used to be a Holiday Inn and a Holiday Inn Express that were literally next-door neighbors, and their signs even shared the same pole (I always thought it was rather impressive to see a single sign pole split into two poles supporting two separate signs). Both buildings were two stories and had an exterior corridor configuration, but for the most part, those exterior corridors were closed off by walls (this sort of remodeling was done with many older Holiday Inns, actually). The Holiday Inn had a Holidome, which was fun, except that particular Holidome was rather humid--a design problem that other Holidomes solved by separating the swimming pool. The Holiday Inn was eventually torn down, and the Holiday Inn Express became a Clarion Inn. However, I believe that, too, has been torn down, since I can't find it on Google Maps anymore.
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 06, 2022, 08:12:28 AM
Quote from: jgb191 on February 06, 2022, 04:53:49 AM
I have seen places where Holiday Inn and Holiday Inn Express were only a small distance apart, do they still compete with one another or is there a level of cooperation between them?
Also, I could be wrong but another difference I have noticed is that the original (full service) Holiday Inn includes complimentary shuttle rides to and from an airport, whereas I haven't seen an Express offer airport shuttle service (and even if they do, might be an extra upcharge fee for the Express ones).
Also speaking of airport hotels, I've seen Fairfield Inn, Residence Inn, Courtyard, Springhill Suites, and Townplace Suites surrounding the same airport -- all of which owned by Marriott. Are they all competing with one another or do they all cooperate together being that they are all connected by their parent Marriott company?
They all compete with each other, but at the same time they are going after different price points, offerings and services valued their customers.
Locations may also be owned by the corporation themselves or by a franchisee. It's very common for one person/franchisee to own a hotel branded by Marriott and another branded by Hilton, often on the same property in 2 different buildings. While the chains themselves are in competition with each other, the franchise owner is looking to get brand loyalty business from both.
Yeah in the instance described above even though they are all Marriott-operated, some or all of the buildings could be owned by different people including Marriott themselves.
I'm not a DOT employee, but I DID stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.