AARoads Forum

National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: tolbs17 on February 15, 2022, 12:09:47 PM

Title: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: tolbs17 on February 15, 2022, 12:09:47 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 17, 2021, 09:22:41 AM
^ Strawman argument.  Federal law does allow new toll roads (which 540 basically is) to be signed as Interstates.
Then why is NC-540, VA-895, NC-147, (will change to NC-885 soon) not signed as interstate highways? I mean I get the concept that an interstate highway must connect to an interstate on the other end which is what NC-540 will do when the southern extension is complete. The same reason why I-295 was signed as NC-295 and I believe the reason was is because it did not connect to a US or Interstate highway.

I wonder if it goes for VA-168 (yes it's tolled aka the Chesapeake Expressway) not being signed as an interstate highway because it's tolled. Otherwise it can easily become an I-x64 if possible to do so.

I-185 near Greenville SC is an interstate and it's tolled.

So any babbling saying that "This highway cannot be an interstate because of the tolls" is just vague and not true.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: 1995hoo on February 15, 2022, 02:42:09 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:

Take note of where tolbs17 lives. North Carolina's DOT is obsessed with designating Interstates wherever possible.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 02:45:09 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:

In fact one might argue there is too many three digit Interstates already.  How is a glut of similarly numbered three digit Interstates any better than freeways carrying state highway numbers in terms of navigation?
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: Scott5114 on February 15, 2022, 02:57:15 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 02:45:09 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:

In fact one might argue there is too many three digit Interstates already.  How is a glut of similarly numbered three digit Interstates any better than freeways carrying state highway numbers in terms of navigation?

You know, I never thought about it that way. At least if every state had its own SH-295 the shields would distinguish between them, instead of having the same I-295 shield on several disparate highways.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: sprjus4 on February 15, 2022, 03:17:07 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 15, 2022, 12:09:47 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 17, 2021, 09:22:41 AM
^ Strawman argument.  Federal law does allow new toll roads (which 540 basically is) to be signed as Interstates.
Then why is NC-540, VA-895, NC-147, (will change to NC-885 soon) not signed as interstate highways? I mean I get the concept that an interstate highway must connect to an interstate on the other end which is what NC-540 will do when the southern extension is complete. The same reason why I-295 was signed as NC-295 and I believe the reason was is because it did not connect to a US or Interstate highway.

I wonder if it goes for VA-168 (yes it's tolled aka the Chesapeake Expressway) not being signed as an interstate highway because it's tolled. Otherwise it can easily become an I-x64 if possible to do so.

I-185 near Greenville SC is an interstate and it's tolled.

So any babbling saying that "This highway cannot be an interstate because of the tolls" is just vague and not true.
I believe it specifically has to due with how the highways were funded. If federal dollars were used for its construction, it cannot be designated as an interstate highway if it has tolls. If it's fully state or locally funded, however, it can be incorporated... at least I believe.

VA-895, for example, used some amount of federal dollars which led to it not being eligible.

VA-168 was never intended to be an interstate highway, and does not meet interstate standards and has substandard features. That is one route I believe is reasonable to stay as "168"  given the 168/158 corridor makes a continuous route between I-64 and the Outer Banks. Adding another number to the mix would just add to the confusion.

It's also a locally maintained roadway, not by VDOT.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: triplemultiplex on February 15, 2022, 03:39:25 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 02:45:09 PM
In fact one might argue there is too many three digit Interstates already.  How is a glut of similarly numbered three digit Interstates any better than freeways carrying state highway numbers in terms of navigation?

Why number anything then?  Just use names.
(Ad absurdum, baby!)
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: jmacswimmer on February 15, 2022, 03:44:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2022, 02:57:15 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 02:45:09 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:
In fact one might argue there is too many three digit Interstates already.  How is a glut of similarly numbered three digit Interstates any better than freeways carrying state highway numbers in terms of navigation?
You know, I never thought about it that way. At least if every state had its own SH-295 the shields would distinguish between them, instead of having the same I-295 shield on several disparate highways.

On a related note, I sometimes wonder if locals in some cities (Chicago, for example)  have the right idea referring to their freeways by name rather than number.  There may be 3 I-290's in existence, but there's only one 290 associated with "the Eisenhower".  It can also have the added benefit of indicating which side of town you're talking about...for instance, if someone says "the Dan Ryan" you instantly know it's south of Downtown versus wondering which part of 90/94 is jammed up now.

Quote from: tolbs17 on February 15, 2022, 12:09:47 PM
babbling

Pot, meet kettle.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: TheHighwayMan3561 on February 15, 2022, 03:49:10 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on February 15, 2022, 03:44:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2022, 02:57:15 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 02:45:09 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:
In fact one might argue there is too many three digit Interstates already.  How is a glut of similarly numbered three digit Interstates any better than freeways carrying state highway numbers in terms of navigation?
You know, I never thought about it that way. At least if every state had its own SH-295 the shields would distinguish between them, instead of having the same I-295 shield on several disparate highways.

On a related note, I sometimes wonder if locals in some cities (Chicago, for example)  have the right idea referring to their freeways by name rather than number.  There may be 3 I-290's in existence, but there's only one 290 associated with "the Eisenhower".  It can also have the added benefit of indicating which side of town you're talking about...for instance, if someone says "the Dan Ryan" you instantly know it's south of Downtown versus wondering which part of 90/94 is jammed up now.

While I am far from an expert on Chicago (and not to say Eisenhower/Ike has fallen into any sort of disuse), I've started to get the impression "290" has grown to be used much more frequently than it once was.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: SEWIGuy on February 15, 2022, 04:32:08 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on February 15, 2022, 03:44:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2022, 02:57:15 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 02:45:09 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:
In fact one might argue there is too many three digit Interstates already.  How is a glut of similarly numbered three digit Interstates any better than freeways carrying state highway numbers in terms of navigation?
You know, I never thought about it that way. At least if every state had its own SH-295 the shields would distinguish between them, instead of having the same I-295 shield on several disparate highways.

On a related note, I sometimes wonder if locals in some cities (Chicago, for example)  have the right idea referring to their freeways by name rather than number.  There may be 3 I-290's in existence, but there's only one 290 associated with "the Eisenhower".  It can also have the added benefit of indicating which side of town you're talking about...for instance, if someone says "the Dan Ryan" you instantly know it's south of Downtown versus wondering which part of 90/94 is jammed up now.

Quote from: tolbs17 on February 15, 2022, 12:09:47 PM
babbling

Pot, meet kettle.


Naming highways is great if you live there or are at least familiar with the area.  But it doesn't help you much if you aren't from there and need to either go to or through Chicago.  Numbers are just easier.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: skluth on February 15, 2022, 05:14:33 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 15, 2022, 04:32:08 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on February 15, 2022, 03:44:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2022, 02:57:15 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 02:45:09 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:
In fact one might argue there is too many three digit Interstates already.  How is a glut of similarly numbered three digit Interstates any better than freeways carrying state highway numbers in terms of navigation?
You know, I never thought about it that way. At least if every state had its own SH-295 the shields would distinguish between them, instead of having the same I-295 shield on several disparate highways.

On a related note, I sometimes wonder if locals in some cities (Chicago, for example)  have the right idea referring to their freeways by name rather than number.  There may be 3 I-290's in existence, but there's only one 290 associated with "the Eisenhower".  It can also have the added benefit of indicating which side of town you're talking about...for instance, if someone says "the Dan Ryan" you instantly know it's south of Downtown versus wondering which part of 90/94 is jammed up now.

Quote from: tolbs17 on February 15, 2022, 12:09:47 PM
babbling

Pot, meet kettle.


Naming highways is great if you live there or are at least familiar with the area.  But it doesn't help you much if you aren't from there and need to either go to or through Chicago.  Numbers are just easier.
I like names better when they're useful. The Ventura Freeway goes to Ventura. The Northwest Tollway (when it was still called that) ran northwest from Chicago. But you're correct that names like Chrysler Freeway and Mark Twain Expressway aren't very helpful to traveling motorists and most highway names don't give any useful info to the driver.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 05:23:45 PM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on February 15, 2022, 03:39:25 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 02:45:09 PM
In fact one might argue there is too many three digit Interstates already.  How is a glut of similarly numbered three digit Interstates any better than freeways carrying state highway numbers in terms of navigation?

Why number anything then?  Just use names.
(Ad absurdum, baby!)

Okay, explain to me how having almost every single X80 around a single area like San Francisco Bay is superior to having distinct numbers like 17 (I-880) and 21 (I-680)?  This is where I would argue that things like I-238 make sense given the routing has a distinct enough numbering to make it stand out from the other X80s.  I get that Federal Funding went into pretty much all of these but I can't for life of me understand how using so many similar highway numbers is supposed to be useful as a navigational tool?

I'm all for sticking to reserving three digit even numbers for true bypasses and odds for major alternative destinations.  I say stick a State Highway shield (especially red, white and blue) or State Highway Number on all this local stuff that doesn't quite meet the needs of overall grid navigation.  Even things like I-305 segment in Sacramento have US 50 applied to them since it very little sense to sign the Interstate corridor. 
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: SEWIGuy on February 15, 2022, 05:25:49 PM
I've driven all around the San Francisco Bay Area and have never had problems with all the I-x80s.  It's not that hard to figure them out from a map.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 05:34:53 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 15, 2022, 05:25:49 PM
I've driven all around the San Francisco Bay Area and have never had problems with all the I-x80s.  It's not that hard to figure them out from a map.

I didn't say it was hard, I said it was unnecessary.  There was a lot of money and signage replacement changing over CA 17 to become I-880 and extension of I-580.  Kind of feels like it is a pointless addition that doesn't have any more value considering CA 17 still exists as through to Santa Cruz.  If showing the segment as an Interstate is so important up some Interstate color CA 17 shields as they need to be replaced.

Worth noting; the California Highway Commission did ask for out of grid numbers in their Interstate plans but were rejected.  Daniel Faigen's page (CAhighways.org) does hit on this with specific routes.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: SeriesE on February 15, 2022, 05:48:16 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:

Tell that to Texas. They got enough political clout to get more 2dis than they need to renumber perfectly serviceable US/state highway numbers.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: MATraveler128 on February 15, 2022, 05:55:08 PM
Quote from: SeriesE on February 15, 2022, 05:48:16 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:

Tell that to Texas. They got enough political clout to get more 2dis than they need to renumber perfectly serviceable US/state highway numbers.

Same for Kentucky. They seem to be on a spree with eliminating their parkway system.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: Road Hog on February 15, 2022, 06:27:53 PM
Quote from: SeriesE on February 15, 2022, 05:48:16 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:

Tell that to Texas. They got enough political clout to get more 2dis than they need to renumber perfectly serviceable US/state highway numbers.
I agree that is a weird tic with TxDOT. They'll designate a 2di corridor willy-nilly, but when it comes to fully-compliant 3dis they're like, we're good.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: SEWIGuy on February 15, 2022, 06:52:42 PM
Are we really complaining about the cost of signage?  😂😂😂
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 06:59:54 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 15, 2022, 06:52:42 PM
Are we really complaining about the cost of signage?  😂😂😂

I mean, you're the guy who complains any time someone brings up a "fictional"  scenario or thread you don't agree with. 
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: SEWIGuy on February 15, 2022, 08:43:59 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 06:59:54 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 15, 2022, 06:52:42 PM
Are we really complaining about the cost of signage?  😂😂😂

I mean, you're the guy who complains any time someone brings up a "fictional"  scenario or thread you don't agree with. 


And that's not changing 

But really...the cost of signage.  Lol.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 10:02:43 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 15, 2022, 08:43:59 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 06:59:54 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 15, 2022, 06:52:42 PM
Are we really complaining about the cost of signage?  😂😂😂

I mean, you're the guy who complains any time someone brings up a "fictional"  scenario or thread you don't agree with. 


And that's not changing 

But really...the cost of signage.  Lol.

Hey look, you didn't even need to PM me that this time. 
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 15, 2022, 10:34:13 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 05:14:33 PM
I like names better when they're useful. The Ventura Freeway goes to Ventura. The Northwest Tollway (when it was still called that) ran northwest from Chicago.

But these highways go both ways. Is the Ventura Freeway meaningful going away from Ventura? Does the Northwest tollway mean the same thing when headed in a Southeast direction towards Chicago?

Quote from: BlueOutback7 on February 15, 2022, 05:55:08 PM
Quote from: SeriesE on February 15, 2022, 05:48:16 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:

Tell that to Texas. They got enough political clout to get more 2dis than they need to renumber perfectly serviceable US/state highway numbers.

Same for Kentucky. They seem to be on a spree with eliminating their parkway system.

Tell that to the numerous people on these very forums that complain NJ 42 and the Atlantic City Expressway aren't part of I-76. 
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: kkt on February 15, 2022, 10:54:59 PM
I think named highways are more distinctive and memorable than just numbers.  Especially if the numbers are all x80.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: achilles765 on February 16, 2022, 04:38:05 AM
Quote from: Road Hog on February 15, 2022, 06:27:53 PM
Quote from: SeriesE on February 15, 2022, 05:48:16 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:

Tell that to Texas. They got enough political clout to get more 2dis than they need to renumber perfectly serviceable US/state highway numbers.
I agree that is a weird tic with TxDOT. They'll designate a 2di corridor willy-nilly, but when it comes to fully-compliant 3dis they're like, we're good.

Right! Like I wish my state could/would/did designate more 3dis:
Loop 375 in El Paso could be I-210;
Loop 1604 in San Antonio could be I-637
SH 286 in Corpus Christi could be I-137; SH 358 could be I-337
Texas Toll 130 could be I-235; and SH 45 could be I-435
Beltway 8 in Houston could be I-245; Spur 330 could be I-710; The Emmett F Lowry Expressway (FM..something) could be I-145; Grand Parkway could be I-869; Hardy Toll Road could be I-445

Just a few examples. 
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: SEWIGuy on February 16, 2022, 08:15:07 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 10:02:43 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 15, 2022, 08:43:59 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 06:59:54 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 15, 2022, 06:52:42 PM
Are we really complaining about the cost of signage?  😂😂😂

I mean, you're the guy who complains any time someone brings up a "fictional"  scenario or thread you don't agree with. 


And that's not changing 

But really...the cost of signage.  Lol.

Hey look, you didn't even need to PM me that this time. 


Because I don't think it's polite to crowd the board with this nonsense.

But you be you.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: hbelkins on February 16, 2022, 03:11:23 PM
Quote from: kkt on February 15, 2022, 10:54:59 PM
I think named highways are more distinctive and memorable than just numbers.  Especially if the numbers are all x80.

If the signage is significantly distinctive.

Kentucky's parkway signage all looks the same now, and the state's a worse place for it.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: froggie on February 17, 2022, 07:27:05 PM
^ Not just that.  I would argue that naming the Kentucky Parkways after people (including one still living) instead of keeping the old names further contributed to the degradation.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: hbelkins on February 18, 2022, 10:00:59 AM
Quote from: froggie on February 17, 2022, 07:27:05 PM
^ Not just that.  I would argue that naming the Kentucky Parkways after people (including one still living) instead of keeping the old names further contributed to the degradation.

Julian Carroll -- still living.

Wendell Ford -- assumed room temperature, and may have been living when his name was put on the WK Parkway

Edward Breathitt -- pushing up daisies

William Natcher -- now below ground, but the road was renamed from Green River Parkway while he was still alive.

Louie B. Nunn -- in a box, and I honestly can't remember if he was still alive or not when the name was added

John James Audubon -- very much deceased, then and now

Martha Layne Collins -- still breathing

Bert T. Combs -- was alive when his name was added to the Mountain Parkway, and in fact he had moved to a home in Powell County within a few miles of the route.

I know that most of the heartburn is associated with renaming the Daniel Boone Parkway for Hal Rogers, but he's not the first politician to have a parkway renamed for him while he was still alive (see Natcher above.)

I don't mind the adding of the names if the signage was done with supplemental plaques such as was done with Combs and the Mountain Parkway.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: XamotCGC on February 18, 2022, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 18, 2022, 10:00:59 AM
Quote from: froggie on February 17, 2022, 07:27:05 PM
^ Not just that.  I would argue that naming the Kentucky Parkways after people (including one still living) instead of keeping the old names further contributed to the degradation.

Julian Carroll -- still living.

Wendell Ford -- assumed room temperature, and may have been living when his name was put on the WK Parkway

Edward Breathitt -- pushing up daisies

William Natcher -- now below ground, but the road was renamed from Green River Parkway while he was still alive.

Louie B. Nunn -- in a box, and I honestly can't remember if he was still alive or not when the name was added

John James Audubon -- very much deceased, then and now

Martha Layne Collins -- still breathing

Bert T. Combs -- was alive when his name was added to the Mountain Parkway, and in fact he had moved to a home in Powell County within a few miles of the route.

I know that most of the heartburn is associated with renaming the Daniel Boone Parkway for Hal Rogers, but he's not the first politician to have a parkway renamed for him while he was still alive (see Natcher above.)

I don't mind the adding of the names if the signage was done with supplemental plaques such as was done with Combs and the Mountain Parkway.

WK Parkway name changed occurred in July 1998. It was done in honor of Ford retiring from the Senate.


Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: Scott5114 on February 18, 2022, 06:32:56 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 18, 2022, 10:00:59 AM
I know that most of the heartburn is associated with renaming the Daniel Boone Parkway for Hal Rogers, but he's not the first politician to have a parkway renamed for him while he was still alive (see Natcher above.)

I think it's not just that Hal Rogers was still alive when the renaming happened (which is certainly part of it), but the fact that it was already named after a person, probably one that most people have a more positive association with than Rogers.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: ztonyg on February 18, 2022, 11:03:38 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 05:14:33 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 15, 2022, 04:32:08 PM
Quote from: jmacswimmer on February 15, 2022, 03:44:47 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 15, 2022, 02:57:15 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 15, 2022, 02:45:09 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:
In fact one might argue there is too many three digit Interstates already.  How is a glut of similarly numbered three digit Interstates any better than freeways carrying state highway numbers in terms of navigation?
You know, I never thought about it that way. At least if every state had its own SH-295 the shields would distinguish between them, instead of having the same I-295 shield on several disparate highways.

On a related note, I sometimes wonder if locals in some cities (Chicago, for example)  have the right idea referring to their freeways by name rather than number.  There may be 3 I-290's in existence, but there's only one 290 associated with "the Eisenhower".  It can also have the added benefit of indicating which side of town you're talking about...for instance, if someone says "the Dan Ryan" you instantly know it's south of Downtown versus wondering which part of 90/94 is jammed up now.

Quote from: tolbs17 on February 15, 2022, 12:09:47 PM
babbling

Pot, meet kettle.


Naming highways is great if you live there or are at least familiar with the area.  But it doesn't help you much if you aren't from there and need to either go to or through Chicago.  Numbers are just easier.
I like names better when they're useful. The Ventura Freeway goes to Ventura. The Northwest Tollway (when it was still called that) ran northwest from Chicago. But you're correct that names like Chrysler Freeway and Mark Twain Expressway aren't very helpful to traveling motorists and most highway names don't give any useful info to the driver.

The Phoenix Loop Freeways all have names that are necessary to differentiate where one might be in the system. While oftentimes they are just referred to by their number a lot of times ADOT and traffic reporters refer to them as the following:

Loop 101 - Auga Fria
Loop 101 - Pima
Loop 101 - Price
Loop 202 - Red Mountain
Loop 202 - Santan
Loop 202 - South Mountain

Also going back to the Chrysler Freeway it actually does serve a purpose because I-75 in Detroit follows two different freeways (the Fisher which ends at M-3 Gratiot Ave and the Chrysler which has a southern segment designated as I-375). If / when I-375 is removed I believe the plan is to make I-75 a continuous through route in Detroit but it hasn't occurred as of yet.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: Rothman on February 18, 2022, 11:17:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 18, 2022, 06:32:56 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 18, 2022, 10:00:59 AM
I know that most of the heartburn is associated with renaming the Daniel Boone Parkway for Hal Rogers, but he's not the first politician to have a parkway renamed for him while he was still alive (see Natcher above.)

I think it's not just that Hal Rogers was still alive when the renaming happened (which is certainly part of it), but the fact that it was already named after a person, probably one that most people have a more positive association with than Rogers.
Even though Daniel Boone outright abandoned his wife and kids...
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: HighwayStar on February 19, 2022, 12:41:16 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2022, 11:17:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 18, 2022, 06:32:56 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 18, 2022, 10:00:59 AM
I know that most of the heartburn is associated with renaming the Daniel Boone Parkway for Hal Rogers, but he's not the first politician to have a parkway renamed for him while he was still alive (see Natcher above.)

I think it's not just that Hal Rogers was still alive when the renaming happened (which is certainly part of it), but the fact that it was already named after a person, probably one that most people have a more positive association with than Rogers.
Even though Daniel Boone outright abandoned his wife and kids...

I would say that is a gross simplification of his story, and in any case being a perfect family man is not a requirement to opening the frontier to settlement, which is by far more noteworthy of his accomplishments.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: Rothman on February 19, 2022, 07:50:10 AM


Quote from: HighwayStar on February 19, 2022, 12:41:16 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2022, 11:17:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 18, 2022, 06:32:56 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 18, 2022, 10:00:59 AM
I know that most of the heartburn is associated with renaming the Daniel Boone Parkway for Hal Rogers, but he's not the first politician to have a parkway renamed for him while he was still alive (see Natcher above.)

I think it's not just that Hal Rogers was still alive when the renaming happened (which is certainly part of it), but the fact that it was already named after a person, probably one that most people have a more positive association with than Rogers.
Even though Daniel Boone outright abandoned his wife and kids...

I would say that is a gross simplification of his story, and in any case being a perfect family man is not a requirement to opening the frontier to settlement, which is by far more noteworthy of his accomplishments.

That is a very interesting hierarchy of moral priorities you have there.

Yep, he opened the frontier.  Yep, he was also a jerk of the nth degree.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: hotdogPi on February 19, 2022, 07:55:17 AM
Pretty much everyone important before 1900 has done something that could be seen as a reason to declare them bad enough to be "canceled", just because standards were different back then.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: SEWIGuy on February 19, 2022, 11:37:07 AM
No one is being "cancelled."  Choosing to no longer honor people because society has different standards has been around since the dawn of civilization. 
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 11:46:13 AM
If you guys think "Cancel Culture"  is bad check out:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnatio_memoriae
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: SEWIGuy on February 19, 2022, 11:54:43 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 11:46:13 AM
If you guys think "Cancel Culture"  is bad check out:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnatio_memoriae

Yep.  Also look at the number of former Greek cities that have been completely renamed in modern Turkey.  Or cities with German names that have been renamed in Eastern Europe.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: seicer on February 19, 2022, 12:16:45 PM
Now we have to be woke and cancel Daniel Boone returned home after a long absence of travel to find that his wife had given birth to a daughter that had been fathered by his brother? And that his wife (Rebecca) had assumed that he was dead? And that he did raise the girl as his own child? Okay, can we be more woke by canceling Boone because he was out discovering new territory and frontiers while his wife was borking around with his brother? Part of this is potentially lore, but his leaving Rebecca is not entirely accurate.

I do remember that the parkway (as in other parkways in Kentucky) had unique signs. During the Fletcher administration, they normalized all signs with letters but made the shields unreadable at high speeds because they wanted to add unnecessary text to the borders. It's made worse in many cases because the road name itself isn't legible or even there at all. The old symbols were easily recognizable: tree/mountain/winding road for the Mountain Parkway, Daniel Boone for the Daniel Boone Parkway, etc. Others were really generic, with a supersized A and lowercase udubon for the Audubon Parkway.

- On too many highways, this sign is unreadable at higher speeds. It's not that much of an issue here because of the slower speeds, but if this district would use larger signs that are used in other districts, the sign could be more legible: https://goo.gl/maps/fCRpqXc2CAus9Yw57

- This example is better because "MOUNTAIN PARKWAY" is spelled out next to the shield, which is all but unreadable at 70 MPH: https://goo.gl/maps/e9RYsqCuHZK35Ecv9

Then you have the Industrial Parkway, which is only signed on guide signs at the terminuses and ramps: https://goo.gl/maps/YtNu4aYKtLqjPBM49
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: HighwayStar on February 19, 2022, 12:34:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 19, 2022, 07:50:10 AM


Quote from: HighwayStar on February 19, 2022, 12:41:16 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2022, 11:17:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 18, 2022, 06:32:56 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 18, 2022, 10:00:59 AM
I know that most of the heartburn is associated with renaming the Daniel Boone Parkway for Hal Rogers, but he's not the first politician to have a parkway renamed for him while he was still alive (see Natcher above.)

I think it's not just that Hal Rogers was still alive when the renaming happened (which is certainly part of it), but the fact that it was already named after a person, probably one that most people have a more positive association with than Rogers.
Even though Daniel Boone outright abandoned his wife and kids...

I would say that is a gross simplification of his story, and in any case being a perfect family man is not a requirement to opening the frontier to settlement, which is by far more noteworthy of his accomplishments.

That is a very interesting hierarchy of moral priorities you have there.

Yep, he opened the frontier.  Yep, he was also a jerk of the nth degree.

What he did for his nation greatly outweighed whatever he failed to do for his family. Ben Franklin was also not a great family man, but again, his contributions to our nation more than make up for that.
Now if a guy is a poor family man and also just deals drugs for a living, then sure, that is reprehensible.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: epzik8 on February 19, 2022, 02:54:50 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2022, 02:42:09 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:

Take note of where tolbs17 lives. North Carolina's DOT is obsessed with designating Interstates wherever possible.
They're not one of my favorite DOTs.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: HighwayStar on February 19, 2022, 03:21:24 PM
Quote from: epzik8 on February 19, 2022, 02:54:50 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on February 15, 2022, 02:42:09 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 15, 2022, 02:24:47 PM
Not every limited access highway needs to be an interstate  :pan:

Take note of where tolbs17 lives. North Carolina's DOT is obsessed with designating Interstates wherever possible.
They're not one of my favorite DOTs.

Interstate designations should be a federal issue anyway.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: Rothman on February 19, 2022, 03:55:12 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on February 19, 2022, 12:34:07 PM
Quote from: Rothman on February 19, 2022, 07:50:10 AM


Quote from: HighwayStar on February 19, 2022, 12:41:16 AM
Quote from: Rothman on February 18, 2022, 11:17:34 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on February 18, 2022, 06:32:56 PM
Quote from: hbelkins on February 18, 2022, 10:00:59 AM
I know that most of the heartburn is associated with renaming the Daniel Boone Parkway for Hal Rogers, but he's not the first politician to have a parkway renamed for him while he was still alive (see Natcher above.)

I think it's not just that Hal Rogers was still alive when the renaming happened (which is certainly part of it), but the fact that it was already named after a person, probably one that most people have a more positive association with than Rogers.
Even though Daniel Boone outright abandoned his wife and kids...

I would say that is a gross simplification of his story, and in any case being a perfect family man is not a requirement to opening the frontier to settlement, which is by far more noteworthy of his accomplishments.

That is a very interesting hierarchy of moral priorities you have there.

Yep, he opened the frontier.  Yep, he was also a jerk of the nth degree.

What he did for his nation greatly outweighed whatever he failed to do for his family. Ben Franklin was also not a great family man, but again, his contributions to our nation more than make up for that.
Now if a guy is a poor family man and also just deals drugs for a living, then sure, that is reprehensible.
Like I said, your moral compass is intriguing.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: Rothman on February 19, 2022, 03:58:21 PM


Quote from: seicer on February 19, 2022, 12:16:45 PM
Now we have to be woke and cancel Daniel Boone returned home after a long absence of travel to find that his wife had given birth to a daughter that had been fathered by his brother? And that his wife (Rebecca) had assumed that he was dead? And that he did raise the girl as his own child? Okay, can we be more woke by canceling Boone because he was out discovering new territory and frontiers while his wife was borking around with his brother?


You've left out half the story which is easily determined by a critical read of your description.

Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: tolbs17 on February 19, 2022, 05:12:02 PM
Can anyone make a map of tolled highways in the state/ country? I can't seem to find any link that is about them.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 05:20:22 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 19, 2022, 05:12:02 PM
Can anyone make a map of tolled highways in the state/ country? I can't seem to find any link that is about them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_toll_roads_in_the_United_States
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: tolbs17 on February 19, 2022, 05:27:28 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 05:20:22 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 19, 2022, 05:12:02 PM
Can anyone make a map of tolled highways in the state/ country? I can't seem to find any link that is about them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_toll_roads_in_the_United_States
I meant to say a map of the highways highlighted.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 05:31:11 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 19, 2022, 05:27:28 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 05:20:22 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 19, 2022, 05:12:02 PM
Can anyone make a map of tolled highways in the state/ country? I can't seem to find any link that is about them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_toll_roads_in_the_United_States
I meant to say a map of the highways highlighted.

You could always build one yourself, you have a list. 
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: tolbs17 on February 19, 2022, 05:31:45 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 05:31:11 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 19, 2022, 05:27:28 PM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 05:20:22 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on February 19, 2022, 05:12:02 PM
Can anyone make a map of tolled highways in the state/ country? I can't seem to find any link that is about them.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_toll_roads_in_the_United_States
I meant to say a map of the highways highlighted.

You could always build one yourself, you have a list.
ok
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: skluth on February 19, 2022, 08:29:45 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 19, 2022, 11:54:43 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 11:46:13 AM
If you guys think "Cancel Culture"  is bad check out:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnatio_memoriae

Yep.  Also look at the number of former Greek cities that have been completely renamed in modern Turkey.  Or cities with German names that have been renamed in Eastern Europe.
A lot of those old German cities in Poland also had Polish identities dating back to at least the Kingdom of Poland. Many became German due to Prussian expansionism.

OTOH, if you're discussing Konigsberg/Kaliningrad, I'm good.
Title: Re: If federal law allows new toll highways...
Post by: SEWIGuy on February 19, 2022, 09:40:19 PM
Quote from: skluth on February 19, 2022, 08:29:45 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on February 19, 2022, 11:54:43 AM
Quote from: Max Rockatansky on February 19, 2022, 11:46:13 AM
If you guys think "Cancel Culture"  is bad check out:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnatio_memoriae

Yep.  Also look at the number of former Greek cities that have been completely renamed in modern Turkey.  Or cities with German names that have been renamed in Eastern Europe.
A lot of those old German cities in Poland also had Polish identities dating back to at least the Kingdom of Poland. Many became German due to Prussian expansionism.

OTOH, if you're discussing Konigsberg/Kaliningrad, I'm good.

Konisberg is east of cities like Danzig (Gdańsk). Pressburg was Germanic long before it was Slovak Bratislava.

But the point remains. Things change names. And that's fine.