So, in my area there's several blocks of downtown that have parking on both sides, as well as in the center median. It's all diagonal. The center parking can be entered from either direction, and can be exited in either direction. To me, though, it seems like it was designed in an era of smaller, shorter vehicles, because invariably, someone's parked their truck there, half of which is hanging out in the street. (Rule 1: if you can't park it, you don't get to drive it).
Any similarities in your areas, or areas you've been through?
GSV of my area: https://goo.gl/maps/c1cedWhiRXobJqdCA (https://goo.gl/maps/c1cedWhiRXobJqdCA)
North Wildwood, NJ:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/1h8x4dJ7V4LmJMmYA
See Philadelphia. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9335879,-75.1678143,357m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1 - on S Broad St.
Also the Tourist Trap Wall SD. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.992374,-102.241802,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVt92dqW8zXsOxOWEQSegfQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
MDOT (Michigan) doesn't like center median parking.
- There used to be parking lots in the center median of Woodward Avenue (M-1) in downtown Ferndale, but MDOT finally objected many years ago and they were removed.
- Lincoln Park wanted to add a parking lot in the center median of Southfield Road (M-39) in the late '80s, but again MDOT objected. Instead of dropping the idea, the city acquired that stretch of road and now the southern terminus of M-39 is a dangling end at Lafayette Blvd. instead of connecting to M-85. https://goo.gl/maps/rAdjUaCEYh4PahdE8
Central Avenue in Mackinaw City, MI:
https://goo.gl/maps/e52CXfcgh6D45VmG7
Quote from: wanderer2575 on March 20, 2022, 05:46:40 PM
MDOT (Michigan) doesn't like center median parking.
- There used to be parking lots in the center median of Woodward Avenue (M-1) in downtown Ferndale, but MDOT finally objected many years ago and they were removed.
- Lincoln Park wanted to add a parking lot in the center median of Southfield Road (M-39) in the late '80s, but again MDOT objected. Instead of dropping the idea, the city acquired that stretch of road and now the southern terminus of M-39 is a dangling end at Lafayette Blvd. instead of connecting to M-85. https://goo.gl/maps/rAdjUaCEYh4PahdE8
Also on Michigan Avenue (US-12) in downtown Inkster, for a short distance east and west of the Inkster Road intersection. Once urban renewal had nuked most of the older buildings in the 1960s (and essentially killed any concept of "downtown") there wasn't much need for parking anymore and it was removed.
Here's a old article from 1967 about redeveloping the cleared land, and it mentions the pending boulevard parking removal.
http://inkstermichigan.blogspot.com/2019/07/inkster-clears-33-acre-tract.html
DC at the end of Pennsylvania Ave was like this last I was down there.
There's angle parking on Broadway in Milwaukee, south of St. Paul Avenue.
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.03451,-87.9071282,139m/data=!3m1!1e3
Lake Jackson, TX has this all over the place:
https://goo.gl/maps/Qb3iME7xdGqeErqc6
https://goo.gl/maps/pFoEQKdCNdYsG6b67
https://goo.gl/maps/5q4r6dn4zB3FCnn59
https://goo.gl/maps/uGx3GYiAJTfqrhSMA
https://goo.gl/maps/E4nLc7jQ3CK8uiQG8
Five distinct downtown streets (in a town of 25,000) that all have median parking. Some are nice brick, some have a nice median (and a gazebo!), and some can be entered in either direction.
Quote from: SSOWorld on March 20, 2022, 05:15:01 PM
Also the Tourist Trap Wall SD. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.992374,-102.241802,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVt92dqW8zXsOxOWEQSegfQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
First thing I thought of when I saw this thread. :sombrero:
Remsen, IA has parallel parking in the middle of the street in addition to angle parking on the sides: https://goo.gl/maps/eQ2pCF49JKQ3FYUE8
Madison WI: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.0758967,-89.3855663,104m/data=!3m1!1e3
Quote from: SSOWorld on March 20, 2022, 05:15:01 PM
See Philadelphia. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9335879,-75.1678143,357m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1 - on S Broad St.
Also the Tourist Trap Wall SD. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.992374,-102.241802,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sVt92dqW8zXsOxOWEQSegfQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Beat me to it for Philly. Though I will add that there are several other streets besides Broad that have that going on, Oregon Avenue comes to mind.
Also I am pretty sure Wall SD has a sign (one of their many signs that start about the time you enter South Dakota) that highlights the "free parking" available, as if you could charge for parking in a state like South Dakota.
The "ultimate" configuration of this would be to have a 3-4 foot sidewalk median with parallel parking on both sides of it, thereby maximizing parking. But I am not aware of anyplace that has such a formal system.
Purcell, Oklahoma: https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0122979,-97.3633959,3a,37.8y,80.92h,85.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBj7DyWaRu1itbTLmr5yD1Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 21, 2022, 09:42:41 PM
Also I am pretty sure Wall SD has a sign (one of their many signs that start about the time you enter South Dakota) that highlights the "free parking" available, as if you could charge for parking in a state like South Dakota.
I'll play your game. (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.543485,-96.7280257,3a,15y,171.07h,84.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sandxe3H7KZIAbmvNo1I0og!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 23, 2022, 12:58:52 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 21, 2022, 09:42:41 PM
Also I am pretty sure Wall SD has a sign (one of their many signs that start about the time you enter South Dakota) that highlights the "free parking" available, as if you could charge for parking in a state like South Dakota.
I'll play your game. (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.543485,-96.7280257,3a,15y,171.07h,84.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sandxe3H7KZIAbmvNo1I0og!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Obviously the city center of Sioux Falls is not what I meant but sure. :clap:
Newark, Ohio (https://goo.gl/maps/YVkA5cVbcVth9Uxh9). The brick island is new. It used to look more like the block behind this view. The new spaces are also longer than the old ones now that there aren't two lanes of traffic squeezed in on each side.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 23, 2022, 01:35:50 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 23, 2022, 12:58:52 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 21, 2022, 09:42:41 PM
Also I am pretty sure Wall SD has a sign (one of their many signs that start about the time you enter South Dakota) that highlights the "free parking" available, as if you could charge for parking in a state like South Dakota.
I'll play your game. (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.543485,-96.7280257,3a,15y,171.07h,84.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sandxe3H7KZIAbmvNo1I0og!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Obviously the city center of Sioux Falls is not what I meant but sure. :clap:
I am guessing any rural signage about free parking is somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but the irony is that Wall is the one place where they probably actually
could charge for parking given the volume of tourists.
Quote from: Rothman on March 20, 2022, 06:44:28 PM
DC at the end of Pennsylvania Ave was like this last I was down there.
Only the block between 3rd St NW and 1st St NW...and that parking is restricted to Senate personnel.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 21, 2022, 09:44:15 PM
The "ultimate" configuration of this would be to have a 3-4 foot sidewalk median with parallel parking on both sides of it, thereby maximizing parking. But I am not aware of anyplace that has such a formal system.
5 foot minimum to meet ADA.
One not mentioned yet: Goodyear Blvd (https://www.google.com/maps/@30.5294924,-89.6855424,728m/data=!3m1!1e3) in Picayune, MS. The closest I know of to HighwayStar's "formal system", though it's only a narrow 2ft curb median in the middle instead of a sidewalk.
A much bigger-picture thought related to the above...
I've often wondered why more parking lots don't have a 3-4 foot center aisle for pedestrians between each row. This would improve safety in theory, as it would separate cars and pedestrians. You could even have the cart returns reversed, with an entrances on the pedestrian aisle side instead of the driving aisle side. But my guess is the safety improvement just isn't worth the reduced parking space or I'm sure it would be done more often.
^ Part of that has to do with zoning laws and parking minimums.
To expand on that: Commercial properties are required to have a certain number of spaces per square footage of the building: ie, 5 spaces per 1,000 square feet. This generally leans towards very large parking lots where the further away spaces are never used. If they were to put in center aisles, that would be even more space needed for parking lots. I've seen it done, at least down a few rows of parking, but it's rare.
Louisiana Avenue in DC near Union Station: https://goo.gl/maps/b1aygW4wKcrYffAZA The parking is restricted, though I don't know to whom.
I hate driving through that block, though I invariably do when I go to Union Station (as recently as two days ago to get the Acela to New York). It's a busy area and it's a high-pedestrian area and the parked cars in the median add to the number of things to which you have to pay attention, but it's by far the most direct route for me to go from I-395 to the Union Station parking garage, so I suck it up and deal with it.
Quote from: 1995hoo on March 23, 2022, 09:55:04 AM
Louisiana Avenue in DC near Union Station: https://goo.gl/maps/b1aygW4wKcrYffAZA The parking is restricted, though I don't know to whom.
That's also Senate-restricted parking.
Highlands, NC: https://goo.gl/maps/2oqbfJBmsgWnFunW7
Quote from: froggie on March 23, 2022, 09:38:19 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 20, 2022, 06:44:28 PM
DC at the end of Pennsylvania Ave was like this last I was down there.
Only the block between 3rd St NW and 1st St NW...and that parking is restricted to Senate personnel.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 21, 2022, 09:44:15 PM
The "ultimate" configuration of this would be to have a 3-4 foot sidewalk median with parallel parking on both sides of it, thereby maximizing parking. But I am not aware of anyplace that has such a formal system.
5 foot minimum to meet ADA.
One not mentioned yet: Goodyear Blvd (https://www.google.com/maps/@30.5294924,-89.6855424,728m/data=!3m1!1e3) in Picayune, MS. The closest I know of to HighwayStar's "formal system", though it's only a narrow 2ft curb median in the middle instead of a sidewalk.
I would prefer the ADA be waived here. It would be stupid to put handicapped spots in the middle of the street in the first place, those should be located on the sides. Therefore why bother with a 5' sidewalk that is only to serve people parking in the middle?
Quote from: SSOWorld on March 20, 2022, 05:15:01 PM
See Philadelphia. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9335879,-75.1678143,357m/data=!3m1!1e3!5m1!1e1 - on S Broad St.
IIRC, the center lane parking in Philly is (or maybe was) technically illegal...but it has happened so often for so long that it is not enforced at all.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 23, 2022, 10:42:06 AM
Quote from: froggie on March 23, 2022, 09:38:19 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 20, 2022, 06:44:28 PM
DC at the end of Pennsylvania Ave was like this last I was down there.
Only the block between 3rd St NW and 1st St NW...and that parking is restricted to Senate personnel.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 21, 2022, 09:44:15 PM
The "ultimate" configuration of this would be to have a 3-4 foot sidewalk median with parallel parking on both sides of it, thereby maximizing parking. But I am not aware of anyplace that has such a formal system.
5 foot minimum to meet ADA.
One not mentioned yet: Goodyear Blvd (https://www.google.com/maps/@30.5294924,-89.6855424,728m/data=!3m1!1e3) in Picayune, MS. The closest I know of to HighwayStar's "formal system", though it's only a narrow 2ft curb median in the middle instead of a sidewalk.
I would prefer the ADA be waived here. It would be stupid to put handicapped spots in the middle of the street in the first place, those should be located on the sides. Therefore why bother with a 5' sidewalk that is only to serve people parking in the middle?
Disabled people drive too, and handicapped spots are not always available.
Furthermore, there are two logical reasons having nothing to do with ADA where a 5ft (or wider) sidewalk would be useful. A) to avoid opposing doors being opened into each other, and B) so pedestrians walking to/from their cars don't get "doored". The former can be done with that same 5ft. The latter would probably require something more like 6-8ft.
Quote from: froggie on March 23, 2022, 12:25:30 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 23, 2022, 10:42:06 AM
Quote from: froggie on March 23, 2022, 09:38:19 AM
Quote from: Rothman on March 20, 2022, 06:44:28 PM
DC at the end of Pennsylvania Ave was like this last I was down there.
Only the block between 3rd St NW and 1st St NW...and that parking is restricted to Senate personnel.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 21, 2022, 09:44:15 PM
The "ultimate" configuration of this would be to have a 3-4 foot sidewalk median with parallel parking on both sides of it, thereby maximizing parking. But I am not aware of anyplace that has such a formal system.
5 foot minimum to meet ADA.
One not mentioned yet: Goodyear Blvd (https://www.google.com/maps/@30.5294924,-89.6855424,728m/data=!3m1!1e3) in Picayune, MS. The closest I know of to HighwayStar's "formal system", though it's only a narrow 2ft curb median in the middle instead of a sidewalk.
I would prefer the ADA be waived here. It would be stupid to put handicapped spots in the middle of the street in the first place, those should be located on the sides. Therefore why bother with a 5' sidewalk that is only to serve people parking in the middle?
Disabled people drive too, and handicapped spots are not always available.
Furthermore, there are two logical reasons having nothing to do with ADA where a 5ft (or wider) sidewalk would be useful. A) to avoid opposing doors being opened into each other, and B) so pedestrians walking to/from their cars don't get "doored". The former can be done with that same 5ft. The latter would probably require something more like 6-8ft.
Parking lots rarely if ever have a 5 food walkway between cars to ensure doors don't open into each other, so that is hardly a requirement.
Pedestrians should only be using the walk to the end of the block to and from their cars, hardly enough foot traffic to warrant a wider sidewalk over fears of being doored.
Hawthorne Blvd in Lawndale, CA has a wide enough center median that there is angled parking (in places, one-way only; in others, two-way) that is separated from the main roadway. GSV: https://goo.gl/maps/8xtvpwAmq3JAQajs7
This was once part of a state highway (that became CA 107 in the 1964 renumbering), although this portion of the highway has been relinquished to the city. The median is so wide because there were light rail trains running there.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 23, 2022, 01:35:50 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 23, 2022, 12:58:52 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 21, 2022, 09:42:41 PM
Also I am pretty sure Wall SD has a sign (one of their many signs that start about the time you enter South Dakota) that highlights the "free parking" available, as if you could charge for parking in a state like South Dakota.
I'll play your game. (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.543485,-96.7280257,3a,15y,171.07h,84.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sandxe3H7KZIAbmvNo1I0og!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Obviously the city center of Sioux Falls is not what I meant but sure. :clap:
What about this? (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8753614,-103.4522974,3a,15y,16.01h,92.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sot80JlC6LgmD9hx86gpq-Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 23, 2022, 09:10:34 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 23, 2022, 01:35:50 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 23, 2022, 12:58:52 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 21, 2022, 09:42:41 PM
Also I am pretty sure Wall SD has a sign (one of their many signs that start about the time you enter South Dakota) that highlights the "free parking" available, as if you could charge for parking in a state like South Dakota.
I'll play your game. (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.543485,-96.7280257,3a,15y,171.07h,84.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sandxe3H7KZIAbmvNo1I0og!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Obviously the city center of Sioux Falls is not what I meant but sure. :clap:
What about this? (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8753614,-103.4522974,3a,15y,16.01h,92.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sot80JlC6LgmD9hx86gpq-Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Lets cut to the chase. Have you ever actually driven through the
middle of South Dakota, where Wall Drug is? If not, do so and you will understand my point. If you have, you should already get the point.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 23, 2022, 09:48:01 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 23, 2022, 09:10:34 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 23, 2022, 01:35:50 AM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 23, 2022, 12:58:52 AM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 21, 2022, 09:42:41 PM
Also I am pretty sure Wall SD has a sign (one of their many signs that start about the time you enter South Dakota) that highlights the "free parking" available, as if you could charge for parking in a state like South Dakota.
I'll play your game. (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.543485,-96.7280257,3a,15y,171.07h,84.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sandxe3H7KZIAbmvNo1I0og!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Obviously the city center of Sioux Falls is not what I meant but sure. :clap:
What about this? (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.8753614,-103.4522974,3a,15y,16.01h,92.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sot80JlC6LgmD9hx86gpq-Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Lets cut to the chase. Have you ever actually driven through the middle of South Dakota, where Wall Drug is? If not, do so and you will understand my point. If you have, you should already get the point.
Is this close enough to the
middle of the state for you? (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.4491967,-98.4855736,3a,15y,16.38h,85.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sb8E_6uT5ju2W5EAOH_qc0w!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3Db8E_6uT5ju2W5EAOH_qc0w%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D77.10189%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)
And if you want to cut to the chase, you said, and I quote:
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 21, 2022, 09:42:41 PM
as if you could charge for parking in a state like South Dakota
And I wanted to see if that was in fact the case or not. And it turns out that there are any number of places that do charge for parking. Now you know.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 23, 2022, 03:08:03 PM
Parking lots rarely if ever have a 5 food walkway between cars
I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one McDonald's parking lot that someone spilled enough fries in to qualify.
The problem with the center parking i mentioned at the top of this thread...
.. is that it's accessible from both sides, meaning there's potential (though at low speed) for head-on's, plus, if you're driving forward to leave one, the sight lines are a little weird.
.. and that I feel like vehicles might have been shorter when this was set up originally. There's always giant trucks or SUV's that have their ass end poking out into the left lane. The same issues really apply with the side-of-street parking as well.
This part of town is on US 287, and the downtown area where this exists is pretty congested most of the time unless it's the middle of the night. People just plain don't look when backing out of these spaces. When driving through this area, you have to really be on guard for reverse lights.
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on March 24, 2022, 10:43:04 AM
The problem with the center parking i mentioned at the top of this thread...
.. is that it's accessible from both sides, meaning there's potential (though at low speed) for head-on's, plus, if you're driving forward to leave one, the sight lines are a little weird.
.. and that I feel like vehicles might have been shorter when this was set up originally. There's always giant trucks or SUV's that have their ass end poking out into the left lane. The same issues really apply with the side-of-street parking as well.
This part of town is on US 287, and the downtown area where this exists is pretty congested most of the time unless it's the middle of the night. People just plain don't look when backing out of these spaces. When driving through this area, you have to really be on guard for reverse lights.
The fix for the first is the sidewalk I proposed.
Long vehicles are not new. Ever seen a 60's Lincoln Continental? Longer than most SUVs today.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 24, 2022, 11:07:25 AM
The fix for the first is the sidewalk I proposed.
Disregarding the ADA is a non-starter, the potential for litigation is astronomical; you'd spend more on court costs than you would designing a compliant sidewalk to begin with.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 26, 2022, 06:25:57 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 24, 2022, 11:07:25 AM
The fix for the first is the sidewalk I proposed.
Disregarding the ADA is a non-starter, the potential for litigation is astronomical; you'd spend more on court costs than you would designing a compliant sidewalk to begin with.
You are assuming I am thinking from the view of some local entity designing sidewalks. No, I am actually thinking the Federal government just uses its unlimited fiat and tears up the ADA wherever it would conflict with this design. Something to the effect of "all prior legislation conflicting with X is hereby null and void", problem solved.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 26, 2022, 11:15:56 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 26, 2022, 06:25:57 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 24, 2022, 11:07:25 AM
The fix for the first is the sidewalk I proposed.
Disregarding the ADA is a non-starter, the potential for litigation is astronomical; you'd spend more on court costs than you would designing a compliant sidewalk to begin with.
You are assuming I am thinking from the view of some local entity designing sidewalks. No, I am actually thinking the Federal government just uses its unlimited fiat and tears up the ADA wherever it would conflict with this design. Something to the effect of "all prior legislation conflicting with X is hereby null and void", problem solved.
Unconstitutional. Congress passed the ADA; only Congress can repeal it. FHWA cannot overrule it by fiat.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 24, 2022, 11:07:25 AM
Long vehicles are not new.
Carpenter school buses were last made in 2001, so they would indeed be long vehicles that are not new. But you knew that already.
Quote from: Rothman on March 20, 2022, 06:44:28 PM
DC at the end of Pennsylvania Ave was like this last I was down there.
Quote from: froggie on March 23, 2022, 09:38:19 AM
Only the block between 3rd St NW and 1st St NW...and that parking is restricted to Senate personnel.
The "ultimate" configuration of this would be to have a 3-4 foot sidewalk median with parallel parking on both sides of it, thereby maximizing parking. But I am not aware of anyplace that has such a formal system.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 21, 2022, 09:44:15 PM
5 foot minimum to meet ADA.
One not mentioned yet: Goodyear Blvd (https://www.google.com/maps/@30.5294924,-89.6855424,728m/data=!3m1!1e3) in Picayune, MS. The closest I know of to HighwayStar's "formal system", though it's only a narrow 2ft curb median in the middle instead of a sidewalk.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 23, 2022, 10:42:06 AM
I would prefer the ADA be waived here. It would be stupid to put handicapped spots in the middle of the street in the first place, those should be located on the sides. Therefore why bother with a 5' sidewalk that is only to serve people parking in the middle?
Quote from: froggie on March 23, 2022, 12:25:30 PM
Disabled people drive too, and handicapped spots are not always available.
Furthermore, there are two logical reasons having nothing to do with ADA where a 5ft (or wider) sidewalk would be useful. A) to avoid opposing doors being opened into each other, and B) so pedestrians walking to/from their cars don't get "doored". The former can be done with that same 5ft. The latter would probably require something more like 6-8ft.
Having been an enforcer of ADA regulations on public transit projects (which is by no means my area of expertise), I should interject that it is possible to meet ADA requirements with narrow sidewalks by not permitting any wheelchair to the sidewalk. In the case of center-of-the-street parking, such an arrangement would require wheelchair cut-throughs with fully marked crosswalks at each cut-through. (For the record, I'm not sure that I would have ever accepted/approved such an arrangement without a couple levels of safety reviews and an alternatives evaluation).
All that being said, you could simply enforce the ADA requirement and provide the cross-over safety prohibition (as suggested by
HighwayStar) by installing curb blocks for each parking space so as to provide the 5-foot wide ADA sidewalk in roughly the same space as a 4-foot wide non-ADA sidewalks with 6-inch standard curbs around the entire sidewalk.
But as I mentioned in a previous post in another thread, the biggest issue that I have seen with left-hand diagonal parking (on a multi-lane street) is that drivers still tend to treat the left lane of the street as the "fast lane". Backing out into 40MPH traffic is quite dangerous unless the view is nearly unobstructed (no matter how low the posted speed limit is).
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2022, 11:23:09 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 26, 2022, 11:15:56 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 26, 2022, 06:25:57 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 24, 2022, 11:07:25 AM
The fix for the first is the sidewalk I proposed.
Disregarding the ADA is a non-starter, the potential for litigation is astronomical; you'd spend more on court costs than you would designing a compliant sidewalk to begin with.
You are assuming I am thinking from the view of some local entity designing sidewalks. No, I am actually thinking the Federal government just uses its unlimited fiat and tears up the ADA wherever it would conflict with this design. Something to the effect of "all prior legislation conflicting with X is hereby null and void", problem solved.
Unconstitutional. Congress passed the ADA; only Congress can repeal it. FHWA cannot overrule it by fiat.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 24, 2022, 11:07:25 AM
Long vehicles are not new.
Carpenter school buses were last made in 2001, so they would indeed be long vehicles that are not new. But you knew that already.
The supreme court can make whatever it pleases constitutional regardless of what congress actually wants. And when I am talking about federal fiat, that is the total fiat power of the federal government, not that of any particular body. Collectively, the federal government has essentially unlimited fiat power.
Oh, and I used to drive a 1975 Pontiac Catalina that officially was 18'-10" long (and sometimes seemed longer).
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 27, 2022, 12:06:36 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on March 26, 2022, 11:23:09 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 26, 2022, 11:15:56 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 26, 2022, 06:25:57 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 24, 2022, 11:07:25 AM
The fix for the first is the sidewalk I proposed.
Disregarding the ADA is a non-starter, the potential for litigation is astronomical; you'd spend more on court costs than you would designing a compliant sidewalk to begin with.
You are assuming I am thinking from the view of some local entity designing sidewalks. No, I am actually thinking the Federal government just uses its unlimited fiat and tears up the ADA wherever it would conflict with this design. Something to the effect of "all prior legislation conflicting with X is hereby null and void", problem solved.
Unconstitutional. Congress passed the ADA; only Congress can repeal it. FHWA cannot overrule it by fiat.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 24, 2022, 11:07:25 AM
Long vehicles are not new.
Carpenter school buses were last made in 2001, so they would indeed be long vehicles that are not new. But you knew that already.
The supreme court can make whatever it pleases constitutional regardless of what congress actually wants. And when I am talking about federal fiat, that is the total fiat power of the federal government, not that of any particular body. Collectively, the federal government has essentially unlimited fiat power.
This particular conversation has gone from theoretical to bonkers.
Thorndyke Ave W in Seattle (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6389338,-122.3876918,3a,71.4y,211.15h,82.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjzZ50Nw4OozN5iBBkNcyUQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) has parking on the median side only (not on the curb side) in one direction. I'm pretty sure the curbside parking restriction predates the bike lane, since the pavement doesn't look wide enough for parking and a travel lane. I have to wonder if this was the originally-intended design, or if people just parked on the unpaved median enough that it eventually became formalized.
The same thing happens on some segments of S Mt Baker Blvd (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.5761106,-122.2916829,3a,75y,80.78h,82.41t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1slBOhjF51yrRDfBg0bOMvLw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en), but it makes much less sense there. I can't see any reason why they would have put the parking on the median rather than the outside edge of the roadway here.
14th Ave NW has some segments of informal perpendicular parking (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6680468,-122.3736876,3a,74.4y,22.97h,76.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHmIkuClSlMOh0l5a9fccYw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en), and others with landscaped medians, central sidewalks, and parallel parking (https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6747894,-122.3735141,3a,35.8y,332.79h,81.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxfBk-hweEQvoGUOwIcYVAw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en).
Ballard's 14th Avenue NW (https://goo.gl/maps/V8qC4izd5cAV7VB29) is also median-only for parking, taking advantage of a wide former railroad ROW. Further north, a section was converted into Gemenskap Park, resulting in an awkward merging of the divided lanes.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmayflyeng.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F11%2F43988554415_bd747e7b20_o.jpg&hash=86aab6d6214e10472749267c0fbe3761727fbf27)
Quote from: Bruce on March 28, 2022, 03:41:15 PM
Ballard's 14th Avenue NW (https://goo.gl/maps/V8qC4izd5cAV7VB29) is also median-only for parking, taking advantage of a wide former railroad ROW. Further north, a section was converted into Gemenskap Park, resulting in an awkward merging of the divided lanes.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmayflyeng.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F11%2F43988554415_bd747e7b20_o.jpg&hash=86aab6d6214e10472749267c0fbe3761727fbf27)
They could have put a nice 4 lane freeway though there instead.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 28, 2022, 05:42:32 PM
They could have put a nice 4 lane freeway though there instead.
Adjacent 15th Avenue would be the one to upgrade, not 14th. It crosses the river, and it already has interchanges.
Quote from: 1 on March 28, 2022, 06:18:28 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 28, 2022, 05:42:32 PM
They could have put a nice 4 lane freeway though there instead.
Adjacent 15th Avenue would be the one to upgrade, not 14th. It crosses the river, and it already has interchanges.
Even better, do both and have a 6 lane freeway with Texas U turn frontage roads.
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 28, 2022, 09:28:19 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 28, 2022, 06:18:28 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 28, 2022, 05:42:32 PM
They could have put a nice 4 lane freeway though there instead.
Adjacent 15th Avenue would be the one to upgrade, not 14th. It crosses the river, and it already has interchanges.
Even better, do both and have a 6 lane freeway with Texas U turn frontage roads.
15th was originally planned and partially built as a freeway (notice the interchanges south of the ship canal), but it was shot down alongside most other Seattle freeways in the 1970s.
There is not enough traffic in the area to warrant any free flow roadways.
Quote from: jakeroot on March 28, 2022, 09:36:05 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 28, 2022, 09:28:19 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 28, 2022, 06:18:28 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 28, 2022, 05:42:32 PM
They could have put a nice 4 lane freeway though there instead.
Adjacent 15th Avenue would be the one to upgrade, not 14th. It crosses the river, and it already has interchanges.
Even better, do both and have a 6 lane freeway with Texas U turn frontage roads.
15th was originally planned and partially built as a freeway (notice the interchanges south of the ship canal), but it was shot down alongside most other Seattle freeways in the 1970s.
There is not enough traffic in the area to warrant any free flow roadways.
Let me get this straight. It was needed as a freeway 50 years ago, was shot down by CAVE people, and despite the vast increase in both population and traffic in Seattle since then there is not enough traffic to warrant it? Sounds like double think to me.
Seattle desperately needs more freeways, I say build it now!
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2022, 11:12:25 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 28, 2022, 09:36:05 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 28, 2022, 09:28:19 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 28, 2022, 06:18:28 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 28, 2022, 05:42:32 PM
They could have put a nice 4 lane freeway though there instead.
Adjacent 15th Avenue would be the one to upgrade, not 14th. It crosses the river, and it already has interchanges.
Even better, do both and have a 6 lane freeway with Texas U turn frontage roads.
15th was originally planned and partially built as a freeway (notice the interchanges south of the ship canal), but it was shot down alongside most other Seattle freeways in the 1970s.
There is not enough traffic in the area to warrant any free flow roadways.
Let me get this straight. It was needed as a freeway 50 years ago, was shot down by CAVE people, and despite the vast increase in both population and traffic in Seattle since then there is not enough traffic to warrant it? Sounds like double think to me.
Seattle desperately needs more freeways, I say build it now!
We don't need it. Its justification was questionable in the 1950s/1960s (which is why it was never seriously proposed, only in long term plans) and it definitely doesn't pan out today. Ballard is instead getting a grade-separated light rail line that will be able to carry as many commuters with a miniscule impact.
Quote from: Bruce on March 29, 2022, 12:20:36 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 29, 2022, 11:12:25 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 28, 2022, 09:36:05 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 28, 2022, 09:28:19 PM
Quote from: 1 on March 28, 2022, 06:18:28 PM
Quote from: HighwayStar on March 28, 2022, 05:42:32 PM
They could have put a nice 4 lane freeway though there instead.
Adjacent 15th Avenue would be the one to upgrade, not 14th. It crosses the river, and it already has interchanges.
Even better, do both and have a 6 lane freeway with Texas U turn frontage roads.
15th was originally planned and partially built as a freeway (notice the interchanges south of the ship canal), but it was shot down alongside most other Seattle freeways in the 1970s.
There is not enough traffic in the area to warrant any free flow roadways.
Let me get this straight. It was needed as a freeway 50 years ago, was shot down by CAVE people, and despite the vast increase in both population and traffic in Seattle since then there is not enough traffic to warrant it? Sounds like double think to me.
Seattle desperately needs more freeways, I say build it now!
We don't need it. Its justification was questionable in the 1950s/1960s (which is why it was never seriously proposed, only in long term plans) and it definitely doesn't pan out today. Ballard is instead getting a grade-separated light rail line that will be able to carry as many commuters with a miniscule impact.
A rail line that can stuff people into boxcars like cattle is not equivalent to a highway that can carry them in the comfort of their own automobiles.
The existing rail line seems to be a significant walk from much of the area. Are they planning on anything that's closer to the center and not on the water?
Here is a shot of the median along Woodward in Ferndale, Michigan in the 1930s,1957, and 2011.
(https://i.redd.it/uqsghsyyotj11.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2XHTk3X4AI_g8i?format=jpg&name=medium)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2XHXX2XgAAmJBs?format=jpg&name=large)
Quote from: 1 on March 29, 2022, 12:35:11 PM
The existing rail line seems to be a significant walk from much of the area. Are they planning on anything that's closer to the center and not on the water?
Not sure what you're looking at, but the general plan is to build a new line from Westlake Station to Ballard by following 15th Avenue West (or a few blocks west along the BNSF railyard).
Quote from: Bruce on March 30, 2022, 12:59:56 AM
Quote from: 1 on March 29, 2022, 12:35:11 PM
The existing rail line seems to be a significant walk from much of the area. Are they planning on anything that's closer to the center and not on the water?
Not sure what you're looking at, but the general plan is to build a new line from Westlake Station to Ballard by following 15th Avenue West (or a few blocks west along the BNSF railyard).
Last I saw, Sound Transit was still considering a station along 14th.
When I saw this thread, it reminded me of the courthouse square in Clinton, MO. (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.37073,-93.7763291,3a,75y,227.57h,78.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYGqDyKCovNkLcPV5xayifw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
Here's a great example from Denmark of all places. The median is the only place parking is allowed. Excellent traffic calming all around.
https://goo.gl/maps/Qd35zs2genw5YrqV7